@loran: I'm sorry if you felt I was being annoying, I thought it was pretty obvious.
EWP: Cyan, you can't be serious. Well, I guess there's one way you could be serious, but I have zero idea why you'd announce that in-thread. So I'm back to "you can't be serious".
Tilde, how does your role work? Please explain in as much detail as you can how you kill players.
I second this question....it'd be good to know how kills work in this game. mafiakills are probably the same way.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I was just thinking about the game as a whole... are we sure they even have kills? Based on my understanding of how this game works, bad things will happen in 24 hours unless we stop it; it doesn't seem like they'd even need to kill us.
Ah no, that's not what I meant by it. Obviously I wouldn't announce that in the thread, heh.
I just don't believe him. But I suppose you have a good point, that kind of falseclaim isn't going to be resolved in thread. Or at least, it shouldn't. Thankfully, with this setup, we won't have to wait too long to know the validity of it.
On to other things, something about Andelijah's last post bugs me. It just doesn't come across as sincere, at all. Vote Andelijah
...and if they don't, why exactly would you care to let them know how the vig kill works?
[sarcasm]I'm going out on a big limb here[/sarcasm] and assuming Tilde isn't a moron and scum. I do not see the value in spewing this information into the thread.
I was just thinking about the game as a whole... are we sure they even have kills? Based on my understanding of how this game works, bad things will happen in 24 hours unless we stop it; it doesn't seem like they'd even need to kill us.
Now that's a curious concept, but i doubt it...if that was the case, the town would need no investigation roles for the mafia not to be far behind.
@DYH---Dude, wth. The idiot went out and claimed his name and role. I fail to see how him explaining how a NK-like ability is going to get the mafia an advantage. They already KNOW how such an ability works, and if they have some way of interfering with such abilities, id gather they know how to do that whether or not tilde explains it.
There is no harm in this information that i can think of. And it would even up the information gap between the town and mafia. I fail to see how thats a bad thing.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
...and if they don't, why exactly would you care to let them know how the vig kill works?
[sarcasm]I'm going out on a big limb here[/sarcasm] and assuming Tilde isn't a moron and scum. I do not see the value in spewing this information into the thread.
What makes you think there's a difference in how the vig kill and mafia kills/potential SK kills work?
FOS Disrupt_Your_Hymn. This post sounds to me like mafia reverse-psychology.
Tell me what we have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Tell me what the scum have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Now, if you can reconcile there is more to gain from A than B, go for it. I personally cannot.
Dude, do you seriously expect for kills in this game to work in 2 entirely different ways? I sincerely doubt it. In which case, the amount the scum have to gain is ZILCH.
So that's B. as for A, at the moment we don't know what scum capabilities are. Personally, i think this information would give us a better explanation of how scum kills work, as i cannot see scum kills working in a different fashion.
Is that useless? I dont think so. (For example, if kills work like they did in blood moon, by pming before the period was over and the kill would come at the start of the next period or if the kills are essentially daykills are indeed big crucial bits of information, which could affect play (especially that of information and power roles, and as for subclaims or mass claims of any sort).
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Er, I can't think of any way at all the the scum would benefit from knowing how the vig kill works. Even assuming it does work differently from the mafia kill, which seems like kind of a long shot already, I don't see any benefit.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
There are two explanations for those kinds of posts:
1) Newbies who don't know how dumb they sound. I've done this before.
2) Scum who are trying really hard not to say something stupid. Based on your experience from the wiki, I'd say you fall closer to this.
Personally, I generally try not to be stupid in general, especially when joining a new site and having my main mafia domain judged indirectly through me. And I tend to attack my posts from the point of view of someone who disagrees to see if they're logically sound before I submit them, regardless of alignment. Are you suggesting that caution is a scumtell, or that precision is? If yes, why? If no, why does my post fall under your label "those kinds of posts" and what does that label consist of?
Tell me what we have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Tell me what the scum have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Now, if you can reconcile there is more to gain from A than B, go for it. I personally cannot.
I see both sides of this argument. A maxim I have always stood by is that in most situations, Joe Vanilla Townie does not need to know the details of any other protown player's role, and if this is indeed true, then Bob Protown Powerrole should not reveal those details, lest Tony Mafia Powerrole exploit it.
However, this is an exception, I think. Tilde has claimed to have a kill. There are no nights in 24 Mafia; thus, the Mafia either have a daykill ability or nothing. If they have no daykill, then the Mafia would have to be roughly 1/3 of the town to balance the setup (more or less depending on power distribution). Ideally, we would wait to see whether they have a kill or not, but assuming Tilde isn't mafia, he will almost certainly be their first target if the Mafia possess a daykill. If they have no daykill ability, this will be apparent as time goes on and we will have revealed details of our vig's killing power before such was strictly necessary. This is the worst-case scenario; it is also, in my opinion, the least likely scenario.
I think that the most intuitive and balanceable way to structure kills would be to set them on a limit related to game time, in the same way lynches are structured. However, making assumptions based merely on setup speculation can lead to grevious errors, especially in the endgame. I think it would be to the town's benefit to know here, because in all probability the mafia have a kill, and thus already know how the kills function.
I have divided the ways the kill could conceivably function into several categories.
A) You have a certain amount of daykills that you can use freely until they run out, or some variant thereof.
Barring the possibility of an odd variant that requires our attention, no questions need be asked or answered here - I can think of none that would benefit town more than scum.
B) Your kill is structured to imitate the lynching structure: You can kill once per [x amount of time].
Because it is likely that the vig and the mafia have the same kill rate, if your kill falls under Category B, I would like you to specify how often you can kill.
C) Your kill is structured around certain triggers besides game time.
Since this is such a broad category, I ask you to trust your judgment here and reveal only what you think will benefit town more than scum. If you feel you may err, err on the side of caution.
D) Your kill does not fall under any of the categories mentioned above.
See questions for Category C.
E) Your kill is a combination of any of the categories mentioned above.
See questions for Category C.
Tilde, I would like you to tell which category the kill falls under, and, if such information can benefit the town, answer the questions in the category headings.
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[20:36] heartsloveBANG: in a church.
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@Phayt, with regards to Possibility B, a distinction needs to be made between how the kill is sent in. For example, i can see the vig/mafia killing by sending in the kill prior to the period in which the kill takes place (similar to blood moon), or it being 1 daykill per 3 hour period (like the daykiller from Sin City).
This distinction does matter, and considering we were considering a mass claim earlier, it does have use today.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I agree that Tilde should likely explain the mechanics around his kill.
I don't like Niv's last post.
Unvote
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His proposition sounds as it is no more and no less than fishing to me, the way it is formulated. The idea is rather interesting, although it may give us a not very mafiaish game (and there's also the possibility that we are going to enjoy the game less then we should have). As for my opinion about the mass claiming itself, I'm not against it, nor in favor. I simply do not mind.
Gentlemen, we have our first catch of the day. Vote J-effe IV.
BTW, most folks on salvation, 'tings, and other mafia-playing sites are at least generally familiar with how 'scum works. No need to worry about protecting its rep.
Unvote. Scum don't falseclaim vig. But you're still an idiot.
Regarding Az's proposals, I think haste will be a significant factor day 1, because day 1's tend to take much longer because of the lack of information. After day 1, I doubt time will be as much of a pressure.
Mass-claim day 1 seems pretty drastic, and I'm not sure we're in that much of a time crunch yet. The only benefit I really see here is the surprise element, make them make falseclaims without planning it all out first. Still, the downsides (making townie roles which need to stay hidden, like docs, lie, and outing significant power roles) seem to greatly outweigh the positives.
I don't see why we need to understand Tilde's kill mechanism, other than sheer curiosity.
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As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I'm pretty sure I agree with Azrael, I'm waiting for J-Effe to answer my question I directed to him regarding the same exact post earlier.
As far as the vig piece, fine. Leave it up to Tilde to decide, but I still think it's a bad idea. The less the scum know about when he can/can't fire, how often, etc., the better, IMO.
I'm pretty sure I agree with Azrael, I'm waiting for J-Effe to answer my question I directed to him regarding the same exact post earlier.
As far as the vig piece, fine. Leave it up to Tilde to decide, but I still think it's a bad idea. The less the scum know about when he can/can't fire, how often, etc., the better, IMO.
We're not asking if he has a limited amount of shots to tell us how many. My primary question is HOW he inputs his kills and when would they occur. I've already explained why this is useful to know.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
DYH, and AZ : What is said is exactly what I meant to say. I don't bother if the game is less enjoyable for the rest of you, as it will be the exact samething to me. Take that as you wish. My claim will make this clearer, if this is the path we choose to take.
On another subject, I am not one to rely on patterns. What I mean is that I do not bother whether AZ did this in another game. This is here and now, and this is the feeling I get. Period. Yes, I rely a lot on my feelings, and they almost never happen to mislead me.
I think you and I misunderstand exactly where this was headed, then.
Quote from Xyre »
Actually, I just thought of something:
Tilde, how does your role work? Please explain in as much detail as you can how you kill players.
Quote from loran »
I second this question....it'd be good to know how kills work in this game. mafiakills are probably the same way.
Xyre's actual question is pretty loaded - "how does your role work?"
Quote from loran »
We're not asking if he has a limited amount of shots to tell us how many. My primary question is HOW he inputs his kills and when would they occur. I've already explained why this is useful to know.
Your answer is already in the rules.
Quote from Arim »
The game begins at 12:00 PM (noon.) Every day in real life counts for ten minutes in the game. Thus, for every six real life days, an hour elapses in the game. Each ten minute segment begins at 6:00 PM EST (real time) and runs until 5:59 PM EST the next day. No smaller units of time exist, so any abilities declared for use during a given ten-minute period will be resolved simultaneously.
I think you and I misunderstand exactly where this was headed, then.
Xyre's actual question is pretty loaded - "how does your role work?"
Your answer is already in the rules.
Can you LET the person answer rather than giving them an answer? Seriously man...now this is just getting annoying.
First you constantly insinuate something rather than point out a different interpretation of a statement, now you answer a question rather than having Tilde doing it. Tell me, what purpose did that serve?
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
DYH, and AZ : What is said is exactly what I meant to say. I don't bother if the game is less enjoyable for the rest of you, as it will be the exact samething to me. Take that as you wish. My claim will make this clearer, if this is the path we choose to take.
This doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you referring to if we did a mass claim?
Quote from J-effe »
On another subject, I am not one to rely on patterns. What I mean is that I do not bother whether AZ did this in another game. This is here and now, and this is the feeling I get. Period. Yes, I rely a lot on my feelings, and they almost never happen to mislead me.
I hope you don't play poker for money.
@CP: LOL, I'm not suggesting that. It's the point of how the abilities operate (which is on an 10-minute/1 rl day simultaneous basis). Beyond that we're back to the scope of the argument I was taking on earlier.
Seriously, you're the one not paying attention here, not me, so I don't know why you're getting all up in arms.
Why are you antagonizing Tilde - the one person who is very likely to be town at this point? What purpose is that serving?
For one, Tilde is the type of player, and i wont list players here, who have tendencies to not be logical at times. If, and THERE IS A CHANCE, he is lying about his claim, he might've said something different. And then we would've had an interesting contradiction.
Truthbetold, there's a chance he's telling the truth about his claim, and he'll still say something different. Not all abilities for all we know work the same. And roles given to individuals can override rules in certain respects (similar to the rules of magic...cards can break game rules).
In which case, your response doesn't let us know that. Which is annoying and makes your response useless. If he's town, and inputs it differently than that phrase would suggest, your comment is harmless but annoying. If he's lying, you stopped him from maybe, just maybe, giving an answer that could catch him in a contradiction.
The chances are small, yes, but as I've said before, I was deciding on whether Tilde was just being dumb, or was a dumb scum. And dumb scum slip up when they have no reason to.
Or at least, they would if you didnt answer for them.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'm fairly confident that the vig can kill once every 3 hours. In fact, I'm fairly confident that is how most(if not all) of the activated abilities in this game will work.
I see no reason to give any details on how my ability works. While the Town may gain some benefit for knowing, I'm fairly certain that the Mafia will be able to use that knowledge. (I'm thinking roleblocker/redirector) I've given out a claim, and as a result I've gotten a read on several players and I feel confident in my assertions, so I'm willing to take a bit of a back seat for now and see what other things develop.
Azrael - I'll second your mass-claim proposal. In fact, I'll full claim right now.
Jason Santos - Town Vig
I habitually believe people who claim kill abilities to be more likely scum. This is a particularly "safe" game in which to do it because of the nightless nature- it will be pretty tricky to prove or disprove who's kill is what.
I also dislike the timing of this claim, it seems like someone under pressure trying to spark a premature mass claim (hint: I think mass-claiming in this situation is really really dumb).
That said, there's absolutely no point in trying to lynch him, because if he's scum he'll get nuked by a townie killer in short order. I really doubt in a 24-theme game that there's no townies with kills
RafK is right about that. It's like, when DYH is town, he can't be bothered waiting for people to explain away their own actions, so he just does it for them so that things can keep going. Then when he's scum, he draws out every little point that he possibly can, trying to catch people up in things that normally would never hold water.
For an example of this dichotomy, see 1001 Nights Mafia vs. Greenwood Mafia.
That's funny, I seriously never realized I did that in either case. Makes sense, though, I really don't have much patience for cases on people I don't think are scum. I probably should work on that.
So, @Loran: point taken, if you want to push Tilde further, you go right ahead. I just happen to think it's a waste of time, and I'll leave it at that for now.
Tell me what we have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Tell me what the scum have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Now, if you can reconcile there is more to gain from A than B, go for it. I personally cannot.
Considering we've already ascertained he's a possible SK, and that there likely is no difference between the killing modes, I would say it's valuable.
And even if there is a difference, really, what would the mafia gain? A sudden compulsion to shoot him? That doesn't make sense in my mind.
Quote from Phayt »
Are you suggesting that caution is a scumtell, or that precision is? If yes, why? If no, why does my post fall under your label "those kinds of posts" and what does that label consist of?
Caution is a scumtell when it's clearly a scum trying to avoid saying something a scum would know, or acting like a scum. Your post suggests to me a scum trying very hard not to say something, and then overcompensating for it.
Quote from Zchnique »
I don't like Niv's last post.
Agreed.
Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn »
Xyre's actual question is pretty loaded - "how does your role work?"
Hmm. Part of my question - inputs and outputs chronologically - is answered by that part of the rules you posted.
But I'm still interested in seeing what Tilde has to say.
Quote from Disrupt_Your_Hymn »
Why are you antagonizing Tilde - the one person who is very likely to be town at this point? What purpose is that serving?
Based on what, his clinically bad play?
Quote from J-Effe IV »
On another subject, I am not one to rely on patterns. What I mean is that I do not bother whether AZ did this in another game. This is here and now, and this is the feeling I get. Period. Yes, I rely a lot on my feelings, and they almost never happen to mislead me.
Azrael wins. Unvote, Vote J-Effe IV
Quote from J-Effe IV »
Az : You will know soon enough. I actually intend to claim at some point today, even if there is no mass claim.
I habitually believe people who claim kill abilities to be more likely scum. This is a particularly "safe" game in which to do it because of the nightless nature- it will be pretty tricky to prove or disprove who's kill is what.
But it can be pretty simple to establish what the normal NUMBER of kills is, then alter it....
Sorry for my late arrival, I was traveling yesterday and by the time I got to my destination it was late.
Anyways, there's a ton of stuff for me to look over. I hopefully will have something to say before I leave today. If not, I'll have something tomorrow.
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Games finished:17
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Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
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Sorry for my late arrival, I was traveling yesterday and by the time I got to my destination it was late.
Anyways, there's a ton of stuff for me to look over. I hopefully will have something to say before I leave today. If not, I'll have something tomorrow.
We have an 18 day limitation, not an 8 day limitation. There really is no real rush, just the illusion of one.
Also, it's so, so unlikely that Azrael is scum, you guys are just wasting time. Azrael isn't necessarily that hard to read, it's just hard to pin a case on him. Which is why he just gets NKed alot, regardless of his alignment.
All those speculating about an SK, can you please explain how does a neutral flavorfully fit in this game? Isn't it, like, a struggle between those who want to blow up the world and those who want to save it? Does that even leave room for neutrality?
Quote from Zasz »
andlijah's case: I probably misunderstand it, but is it based on the assumption that ~Tilde~ is scum or the vig?
All those speculating about an SK, can you please explain how does a neutral flavorfully fit in this game? Isn't it, like, a struggle between those who want to blow up the world and those who want to save it? Does that even leave room for neutrality?
You probably misunderstood it.
Well, the seasons generally follow one of a bunch of formulas....a bunch of terrorist attacks seemingly commanded by one terrorist but actually masterminded by another, or a threat from one group of terrorists, while other anti-US forces also pose a threat for other reasons.
(For example, Phillip Bauer and the Chinese dude could be neutrals from this last awful season. and since this is season independent, we could have terrorists from different seasons forming different scum groups/sks.)
As for neutral but not-anti CTU/US people, it is possible (there are people in the show who might fit this mold, though specific examples escape me for the moment.)
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I'm not particularly seeing the andelijah wagon here....all ive seen is a really really clingy behavior to Tilde.
And its not pure sucking up to a power role, as he was doing it before the claim also. So in other words, the accusation against him is that you think he was scum trying to look good defending a townie?
Personally, i think it would be a bit early for someone to pull a trick like that. Normally that's done later in a day, and not done in every post of a player during a wagon.
Just my thoughts.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I don't really have a scum read on ande, but he seems off. I've plaid with him before and he does seem to be acting differently. (that would be a gut feeling folks.) So I'm going to read him again.
I think ~ is scum. The way in which he claimed seems like scum trying really hard to earn townie points for claiming 'when not under pressure' or 'in response to the town's wish to massclaim' when really it's an attempt to deplete pressure. Specifically I think he's the SK. FOS: ~ b/c I'm more interested in post 42.
Vote Jerub.
Too add to that:
118-Scum don't falseclaim vig.
This bugs me. It's fairly easy to confirm vig...but at the same time w/ unknown mafia power it may also be just as easy for the mafia to fake it. Redirctor, multiple kill, claiming vig who has a limitation that is not known at first. Or maybe...SK.
Your response to massclaim seems...generic. Should we massclaim? 'No! the power roles!' Is a fairly common reaction from scum. You re-stated the logic that was already used 'catch the scum before they can come up with a false-claim' then spout generic logic.
Should we massclaim? No. This game has no night phases and mechanics which aren't understood so it's hard to differentiate possible and impossilbe roles and alignments. There's to much about this game we don't understand.
EWP: Cyan, you can't be serious. Well, I guess there's one way you could be serious, but I have zero idea why you'd announce that in-thread. So I'm back to "you can't be serious".
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Tilde, how does your role work? Please explain in as much detail as you can how you kill players.
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I second this question....it'd be good to know how kills work in this game. mafiakills are probably the same way.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I was just thinking about the game as a whole... are we sure they even have kills? Based on my understanding of how this game works, bad things will happen in 24 hours unless we stop it; it doesn't seem like they'd even need to kill us.
I just don't believe him. But I suppose you have a good point, that kind of falseclaim isn't going to be resolved in thread. Or at least, it shouldn't. Thankfully, with this setup, we won't have to wait too long to know the validity of it.
On to other things, something about Andelijah's last post bugs me. It just doesn't come across as sincere, at all. Vote Andelijah
[sarcasm]I'm going out on a big limb here[/sarcasm] and assuming Tilde isn't a moron and scum. I do not see the value in spewing this information into the thread.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Now that's a curious concept, but i doubt it...if that was the case, the town would need no investigation roles for the mafia not to be far behind.
@DYH---Dude, wth. The idiot went out and claimed his name and role. I fail to see how him explaining how a NK-like ability is going to get the mafia an advantage. They already KNOW how such an ability works, and if they have some way of interfering with such abilities, id gather they know how to do that whether or not tilde explains it.
There is no harm in this information that i can think of. And it would even up the information gap between the town and mafia. I fail to see how thats a bad thing.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
What makes you think there's a difference in how the vig kill and mafia kills/potential SK kills work?
FOS Disrupt_Your_Hymn. This post sounds to me like mafia reverse-psychology.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Tell me what the scum have to gain from knowing how his vig kill works.
Now, if you can reconcile there is more to gain from A than B, go for it. I personally cannot.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Dude, do you seriously expect for kills in this game to work in 2 entirely different ways? I sincerely doubt it. In which case, the amount the scum have to gain is ZILCH.
So that's B. as for A, at the moment we don't know what scum capabilities are. Personally, i think this information would give us a better explanation of how scum kills work, as i cannot see scum kills working in a different fashion.
Is that useless? I dont think so. (For example, if kills work like they did in blood moon, by pming before the period was over and the kill would come at the start of the next period or if the kills are essentially daykills are indeed big crucial bits of information, which could affect play (especially that of information and power roles, and as for subclaims or mass claims of any sort).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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Personally, I generally try not to be stupid in general, especially when joining a new site and having my main mafia domain judged indirectly through me. And I tend to attack my posts from the point of view of someone who disagrees to see if they're logically sound before I submit them, regardless of alignment. Are you suggesting that caution is a scumtell, or that precision is? If yes, why? If no, why does my post fall under your label "those kinds of posts" and what does that label consist of?
I see both sides of this argument. A maxim I have always stood by is that in most situations, Joe Vanilla Townie does not need to know the details of any other protown player's role, and if this is indeed true, then Bob Protown Powerrole should not reveal those details, lest Tony Mafia Powerrole exploit it.
However, this is an exception, I think. Tilde has claimed to have a kill. There are no nights in 24 Mafia; thus, the Mafia either have a daykill ability or nothing. If they have no daykill, then the Mafia would have to be roughly 1/3 of the town to balance the setup (more or less depending on power distribution). Ideally, we would wait to see whether they have a kill or not, but assuming Tilde isn't mafia, he will almost certainly be their first target if the Mafia possess a daykill. If they have no daykill ability, this will be apparent as time goes on and we will have revealed details of our vig's killing power before such was strictly necessary. This is the worst-case scenario; it is also, in my opinion, the least likely scenario.
I think that the most intuitive and balanceable way to structure kills would be to set them on a limit related to game time, in the same way lynches are structured. However, making assumptions based merely on setup speculation can lead to grevious errors, especially in the endgame. I think it would be to the town's benefit to know here, because in all probability the mafia have a kill, and thus already know how the kills function.
I have divided the ways the kill could conceivably function into several categories.
A) You have a certain amount of daykills that you can use freely until they run out, or some variant thereof.
Barring the possibility of an odd variant that requires our attention, no questions need be asked or answered here - I can think of none that would benefit town more than scum.
B) Your kill is structured to imitate the lynching structure: You can kill once per [x amount of time].
Because it is likely that the vig and the mafia have the same kill rate, if your kill falls under Category B, I would like you to specify how often you can kill.
C) Your kill is structured around certain triggers besides game time.
Since this is such a broad category, I ask you to trust your judgment here and reveal only what you think will benefit town more than scum. If you feel you may err, err on the side of caution.
D) Your kill does not fall under any of the categories mentioned above.
See questions for Category C.
E) Your kill is a combination of any of the categories mentioned above.
See questions for Category C.
Tilde, I would like you to tell which category the kill falls under, and, if such information can benefit the town, answer the questions in the category headings.
[20:36] heartsloveBANG: in a church.
Saying that an illegal immigrant doesn't deserve to be paid the same wages as an American because he doesn't belong here in the first place is like saying that a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place. - Maddox
This distinction does matter, and considering we were considering a mass claim earlier, it does have use today.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I support this questioning of the serial killer.
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I don't like Niv's last post.
Unvote
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
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EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
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Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
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Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Gentlemen, we have our first catch of the day. Vote J-effe IV.
Interesting reaction.
*strokes chin* Were you invited here via invite?
BTW, most folks on salvation, 'tings, and other mafia-playing sites are at least generally familiar with how 'scum works. No need to worry about protecting its rep.
Regarding Az's proposals, I think haste will be a significant factor day 1, because day 1's tend to take much longer because of the lack of information. After day 1, I doubt time will be as much of a pressure.
Mass-claim day 1 seems pretty drastic, and I'm not sure we're in that much of a time crunch yet. The only benefit I really see here is the surprise element, make them make falseclaims without planning it all out first. Still, the downsides (making townie roles which need to stay hidden, like docs, lie, and outing significant power roles) seem to greatly outweigh the positives.
I don't see why we need to understand Tilde's kill mechanism, other than sheer curiosity.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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As far as the vig piece, fine. Leave it up to Tilde to decide, but I still think it's a bad idea. The less the scum know about when he can/can't fire, how often, etc., the better, IMO.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
We're not asking if he has a limited amount of shots to tell us how many. My primary question is HOW he inputs his kills and when would they occur. I've already explained why this is useful to know.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
On another subject, I am not one to rely on patterns. What I mean is that I do not bother whether AZ did this in another game. This is here and now, and this is the feeling I get. Period. Yes, I rely a lot on my feelings, and they almost never happen to mislead me.
Make a note of this game.
So, just what flavor of 'neutral' are you?
Xyre's actual question is pretty loaded - "how does your role work?"
Your answer is already in the rules.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Can you LET the person answer rather than giving them an answer? Seriously man...now this is just getting annoying.
First you constantly insinuate something rather than point out a different interpretation of a statement, now you answer a question rather than having Tilde doing it. Tell me, what purpose did that serve?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Seriously, you're the one not paying attention here, not me, so I don't know why you're getting all up in arms.
Why are you antagonizing Tilde - the one person who is very likely to be town at this point? What purpose is that serving?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Somehow, I doubt that the vig can kill every ten minutes. I'm pretty sure that's broken.
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This doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you referring to if we did a mass claim?
I hope you don't play poker for money.
@CP: LOL, I'm not suggesting that. It's the point of how the abilities operate (which is on an 10-minute/1 rl day simultaneous basis). Beyond that we're back to the scope of the argument I was taking on earlier.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
For one, Tilde is the type of player, and i wont list players here, who have tendencies to not be logical at times. If, and THERE IS A CHANCE, he is lying about his claim, he might've said something different. And then we would've had an interesting contradiction.
Truthbetold, there's a chance he's telling the truth about his claim, and he'll still say something different. Not all abilities for all we know work the same. And roles given to individuals can override rules in certain respects (similar to the rules of magic...cards can break game rules).
In which case, your response doesn't let us know that. Which is annoying and makes your response useless. If he's town, and inputs it differently than that phrase would suggest, your comment is harmless but annoying. If he's lying, you stopped him from maybe, just maybe, giving an answer that could catch him in a contradiction.
The chances are small, yes, but as I've said before, I was deciding on whether Tilde was just being dumb, or was a dumb scum. And dumb scum slip up when they have no reason to.
Or at least, they would if you didnt answer for them.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I see no reason to give any details on how my ability works. While the Town may gain some benefit for knowing, I'm fairly certain that the Mafia will be able to use that knowledge. (I'm thinking roleblocker/redirector) I've given out a claim, and as a result I've gotten a read on several players and I feel confident in my assertions, so I'm willing to take a bit of a back seat for now and see what other things develop.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I habitually believe people who claim kill abilities to be more likely scum. This is a particularly "safe" game in which to do it because of the nightless nature- it will be pretty tricky to prove or disprove who's kill is what.
I also dislike the timing of this claim, it seems like someone under pressure trying to spark a premature mass claim (hint: I think mass-claiming in this situation is really really dumb).
That said, there's absolutely no point in trying to lynch him, because if he's scum he'll get nuked by a townie killer in short order. I really doubt in a 24-theme game that there's no townies with kills
Because he's scum.
Only the fact that he's dead anyway if he's scum holds me back from voting anyway myself, but yes.
What he said.
I consider that a big town tell coming from DYH. He always explains away scummy stuff for people when he's town
(No, seriously, he does)
For an example of this dichotomy, see 1001 Nights Mafia vs. Greenwood Mafia.
Az : You will know soon enough. I actually intend to claim at some point today, even if there is no mass claim.
So, @Loran: point taken, if you want to push Tilde further, you go right ahead. I just happen to think it's a waste of time, and I'll leave it at that for now.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Considering we've already ascertained he's a possible SK, and that there likely is no difference between the killing modes, I would say it's valuable.
And even if there is a difference, really, what would the mafia gain? A sudden compulsion to shoot him? That doesn't make sense in my mind.
Caution is a scumtell when it's clearly a scum trying to avoid saying something a scum would know, or acting like a scum. Your post suggests to me a scum trying very hard not to say something, and then overcompensating for it.
Agreed.
Hmm. Part of my question - inputs and outputs chronologically - is answered by that part of the rules you posted.
But I'm still interested in seeing what Tilde has to say.
Based on what, his clinically bad play?
Azrael wins. Unvote, Vote J-Effe IV
Dude, are you compulsively acting scummy?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
No, based on how absolutely idiotic it would be to claim vigilante if he's scum.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
But it can be pretty simple to establish what the normal NUMBER of kills is, then alter it....
Cool.
Unvote.
Nah, the real scum is this way. Vote Andelijah.
Anyways, there's a ton of stuff for me to look over. I hopefully will have something to say before I leave today. If not, I'll have something tomorrow.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
We're going to need to lynch you, aren't we.
Fortunately, I agree with your current(however temporary) vote placement.
I'd have no problem with that, to be honest.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Also, it's so, so unlikely that Azrael is scum, you guys are just wasting time. Azrael isn't necessarily that hard to read, it's just hard to pin a case on him. Which is why he just gets NKed alot, regardless of his alignment.
You probably misunderstood it.
Well, the seasons generally follow one of a bunch of formulas....a bunch of terrorist attacks seemingly commanded by one terrorist but actually masterminded by another, or a threat from one group of terrorists, while other anti-US forces also pose a threat for other reasons.
(For example, Phillip Bauer and the Chinese dude could be neutrals from this last awful season. and since this is season independent, we could have terrorists from different seasons forming different scum groups/sks.)
As for neutral but not-anti CTU/US people, it is possible (there are people in the show who might fit this mold, though specific examples escape me for the moment.)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
2 Azrael - J-Effe IV, ZasZ234
2 ~Tilde~ - Niv, loran16
1 aurorasparrow - Phayt
1 J-Effe IV - Xyre
1 loran16 - StormBlind
1 Niv - Netfinity
1 Phayt - TheFooFish
11 Not Voting - andelijah, aurorasparrow, carrion pigeons, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, GiftsTrix, HAWKEYE7, jerubbaal, RafaelK, ~Tilde~, Vampyr, Zchinque
With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.
12:08:34...
12:08:35...
12:08:36...
12:08:37...
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Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
I'm not particularly seeing the andelijah wagon here....all ive seen is a really really clingy behavior to Tilde.
And its not pure sucking up to a power role, as he was doing it before the claim also. So in other words, the accusation against him is that you think he was scum trying to look good defending a townie?
Personally, i think it would be a bit early for someone to pull a trick like that. Normally that's done later in a day, and not done in every post of a player during a wagon.
Just my thoughts.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I think ~ is scum. The way in which he claimed seems like scum trying really hard to earn townie points for claiming 'when not under pressure' or 'in response to the town's wish to massclaim' when really it's an attempt to deplete pressure. Specifically I think he's the SK. FOS: ~ b/c I'm more interested in post 42.
Vote Jerub.
Too add to that:
118-Scum don't falseclaim vig.
This bugs me. It's fairly easy to confirm vig...but at the same time w/ unknown mafia power it may also be just as easy for the mafia to fake it. Redirctor, multiple kill, claiming vig who has a limitation that is not known at first. Or maybe...SK.
Your response to massclaim seems...generic. Should we massclaim? 'No! the power roles!' Is a fairly common reaction from scum. You re-stated the logic that was already used 'catch the scum before they can come up with a false-claim' then spout generic logic.
Should we massclaim? No. This game has no night phases and mechanics which aren't understood so it's hard to differentiate possible and impossilbe roles and alignments. There's to much about this game we don't understand.
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Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%