See, I can be sarcastic too, but the thing isn't that you defended yourself, but rather that you made a big deal of reacting to every little thing and trying to blow everything out of the water. There's a difference between defence and over-defensiveness, and it's the way loran tends to get lynched early as scum a lot. Ask him to tell you about it.
I take votes seriously. When I get voted, I defend myself, no matter how much or how little evidence the person has against me. My defense just tends to get sarcastic when the evidence approaches nothing, because I have nothing else to respond to.
I would like to take every person that is going out of their way to defend Andelijah, thus saving him from the burden of doing it himself(something that he has been doing a very poor job of thus far) and kick them in the head. You guys are doing the town as a whole a complete disservice.
I did defend myself. You have not brought up any new accusations, other than that I am now overdoing my defense.
Maybe you should learn what the word baseless means. Hint: a case is not 'baseless' when multiple people agree with it.
That's not true...
A case is baseless when you make it and literally the entire thread laughs you into the basement.
A case is baseless when you have close to zero evidence, and it is even worse when you're wrong (as opposed to being based on zero evidence and being lucky).
@Loran: Go read some other game where Andelijah was tonw(Kung Fu, Rorouni() and tell me that he's acting anything like he did in those games.
Of course I'm not acting like I did in those games. Absolutely no one ever voted/FoSed me in those games. If you want to read better examples, look at Cat or Cold War Mafia, where I actually got wagoned.
Maybe you should learn what the word baseless means.
Baseless (adjective): without a basis in reason or fact
For example, a baseless case is one in which the "scumtells" are listed as looking town, posting at the same time as another player, and bugging someone.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
@Vampyr, i appreciate you catching up, but unless you KNOW you can finish your recap and be up to speed within the next 2-3 RL days, please dont try and type it up and just type up your conclusions (even if you have to skim). Posts recapping with conclusions about things 3 pages back (on 40 ppp) don't help and essentially just make you an active lurker.
I will definately have a complete catch up by Sunday night. This weekend just happened to be my monthly trip to my parents/hang out with friends. I will be back to normal once my wife and I return to the foothills of WV tomorrow early evening.
After getting home, getting settled, my first act will be to catch up with the rest of the posting.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
I would like to no9te that i agree with the case on ZDS, my remembrance of his play is that he was a solid player, and im not seeing any of that here. His play seems sloppier.
is equal to an attack, then you're prolly really sensitive.
I wasnt attacking him; because at the moment he isnt at the top of my list, and i dont bother attacking 2-4 people at once, (even if mathmatically its the most efficient way... one of them's bound to be scum). IF i attack someone, i attack one person, and will comment on the various wagons that come up to let the playerbase know my position on said wagons, but i wont actively participate in those wagons.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
6 Not Voting - aurorasparrow, HAWKEYE7, loran16, Niv, ~Tilde~, Vampyr
With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.
12:21:13...
12:21:14...
12:21:15...
12:21:16...
@Modis the Red section correct? By my votecount, ande has not voted anyone this game.
@Mod, can we get a mod prod on Hawkeye?
More coming in about a half an hour, ive been doing an analysis in word that i have to finish.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@Modis the Red section correct? By my votecount, ande has not voted anyone this game.
Upon checking, it appears you are correct. I'll amend the votecount.
Quote from loran16 »
@Modis the Red section correct? By my votecount, ande has not voted anyone this game.
In light of the fact that he's posted in Random Mafia, I'm sure he's aware the game has started. If he doesn't post by 6:00 PM tomorrow, he'll be up for a prod, and then possibly replacement after that.
I've got one on Niv. Seeing as there are some active cases, I'll unvote for now though.
On J-Effe:
Votes Azrael for “fishing” when he suggests a massclaim, but is at the same time not for or against said massclaim. Seems strange to me.
Stating that he relies on feelings, and that they are hardly ever wrong, seems like a nice way for scum to avoid giving much reasons for their voting habits. Also, it seems unlikely to me that his intuition is that great, unless it's somehow based on actual tells, that can be pointed out to the rest of us. @ J-Effe: Could you please link me to some examples of where your intuition has proven correct?
Given that he has said he will claim at some point during this 3-hour block (and I agree with Az, it seems he is setting up some sort of neutral claim), I'll hold off of voting him, for now.
Not seeing the case against Jerubbaal at this time. His last couple of posts have not been great, but I don't see it as damning at this point.
Sleep now, will look at other possible cases tomorrow. Seeing as there's just been a votecount, looking at ZDS, Ande and AuroraSparrow will be my top priority in the morning.
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Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Picross 3D
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
I agree with ZDS in his response to Netfinity(regarding TFF). This is reinforced by the fact that TFF asks him why Netfinity feels this way. I mean honestly, can you be more obvious? Unvote, Vote TheFooFish
Zchinque : Of course my feelings can get wrong often enough, but less likely in critical moments. And since you ask for it, I do not know how much it can be of help, but you may want to check Cat mafia, Matrix mafia, Vanilla mafia, and newbie 13 (Futurama).
On recent (and interesting) developments : I am somewhat surprised about how each and every attempt on a wagon fails in this game. Overall, I get a feeling of generalized unfocusing, so it's hard to get a proper read... Well let's try something then. Unvote, vote TheFooFish.
This post is going to be a bit long. Basically i went over everyone's posts in the game and made a pbpa of them in word. I have a few questions for a bunch of people, and im going to post a few pbpas i feel relevant. (If any others come up, im keeping track so ill post them as well.)
If i ask you a question, please respond. Thanks.
@Zchinque- In 116 you agree Tilde should answer Xyre, but you say Niv's 115 was scummy.
Niv's 115 was "The Serial Killer should answer the questions at him."
If you agreed on the questions part, what was scummy? Calling Tilde a serial killer? If that was scummy, what are your thoughts on Cyan and RafaelK doing the same thing during this game?
@Rahl/Stormblind, in post 164 you bring up that Jason Santos isn't in the wiki...when that point had come up before. What prompted that comment then, you'd had plenty of time to look up tilde's claim before then and had posted after Tilde's claim.
Also, can you explain how #220 is townie? it seems like you're trying to say you can fan the fires of other wagons while maintaining a vote on the one you are currently on. This sounds scummy, no?
@Jerubbaal- When you posted post #38, had you seen posts 36 and 37 (From Tilde and DYH respectively)? Or was it a simul?
@Vampyr-When you've caught up, explain post #142?
-------------------------------------------------------
Okay, the pbpas im going to copy and paste im going to post in a post coming up right next. Expect it in 5 minutes.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Okay the following are pbpas i have made in word that i feel are important to share.
ZDS 145-First post, says Phayt’s annoying and too serious too early. Tilde’s also annoying
and that he approves of the pre-claim wagon on him. FOSes Jeffe for his
aggression. Votes Ande for saying the same thing as CP (in reality, the two posts
were a simul). FOSes Az for calling J-effe a neutral. FoSes Tilde as well and
sums up saying that Jeffe and andelijah are mafia and Tilde’s SK.
149- Says there can always be neutrals in mafia (Re: Alx’s 147)
152- Says CP is wrong, that he agrees with Az’ scum list, but that he dislikes his calling
J-effe a neutral rather than scum. Says CP is reaching.
162- Unvotes, saying it was a vote based on not realizing the simul and where the 8
lynches came from. Votes J-effe.
165- Notes that Santos is mentioned in the scene but not Tilde, but concedes it gives
Tilde some credit.
197- Responds to DYH, saying he can’t have helped coming into the thread so late.
Explains feelings about Ande-His original vote was strongly based on a
Misunderstanding, without the misunderstanding he still thinks he’s scummy but
less so that his vote on J-effe. Notes Jerub’s comment is stupid, and responds to
rahl saying he was usually a better player. Notes Foofish is acting scummy for
speaking the obvious whenever he posts, and doesn’t like d-fence of ande or
attack on aurora. FoSes foofish with the promise of going after him after his
current target.
206- Responds to DYH (again) saying that his post was the result of him not pretending
nothing happened during the 150 posts before he came in. Says its possible to
suspect ande while saying that other attacks on him are weak. Says that DYH is
turning “molehills into mountains.” Responds to Jerub’s comments on his
defense by saying the fact that Az could be scum means Az’ votes are wifom
anyhow and saying therefore its not impossible to agree with those players being
scummy.
211- explains that Jerub was talking bout ZDS, not Andelijah.
221- Disagrees that foo’s post was townie-like. Says that he seems like a protecting a
Questionable player for townie points, and is going onto the next easy wagon.
Says he is yet to take any risk. Votes foofish, and states that ande probably isn’t
scum if foo is but the opposite isn’t true.
Ah, ZDS, ZDS. Personally, I don’t mind 145. It’s less subtle than Zaz’s 143 (more on this in a second), but it seems to be a typical ZDS type post….i always recall ZDS making liberal use of multiple FoSes, and it makes sense in a post where he’s just coming in after a decent amount has happened. I disagree on whether you can call a player scum while agreeing with his other players of suspicion list…I know some wifom is involved, but its unlikely thatd he’d be suspecting all scum, no? Still I understand that comment. DYH is correct in that his comments on Ande are a bit off, but I can understand them…kind of (Ande’s defense of J-effe and Tilde is weird) . And the misunderstanding of a simulpost is understandable. Moreover the Foofish case is legit imo (more on this in a second).
Zaz 143-apologizes for being late, says he might’ve been on tilde’s case but he’s giving him
the benefit of the doubt due to the vig claim. Doesn’t understand the andelijah
case. Accuses az of causing fear with proposition 1 and 2 and accuses Az of
OMGUSing. Claims not to give in to az’ reputation, and votes him. Doesn’t get
Jeffe’s wagon, says he has suspicion of Phayt and Niv.
146-Clears up 8 game days vs 18 days per game day thing with Cyan. Says that why
doesn’t cyan let Zaz handle az on his own.
189- Quotes phayt’s reason for continuing to vote AS in 159 and says that he wants to
switch his vote to Phayt, but Az is acting like a 3 year old. Says Ande answered
his nonexistent case well. Says the namedrop in the scene doesn’t mean anything.
Explains fearmongering and once again asks Az to explain himself.
Yet another lurker…..#143 is really really really really REALLY bad. Seriously, you thought ZDS’ 145 is bad? LOOK AT THIS. Votes Az with a bunch of random accusations (Fearmongering has got to stop being cited as a scum-tell.) including a crappy OMGUS accusation. Doesn’t get an obvious J-effe wagon, and has suspicion of Niv and Phayt as well…all in one post? This is not the same thing as the ZDS post? Moreover, 189….doesn’t help the matter..it’s like he’s testing the waters for a Phayt vote while keeping a useless vote on Az. He’s not the play atm, but personally of the lurkers, he needs a bit of attention to him.
Andelijah 58- Notes why Tilde’s logic is unsound, then comments that Tilde is being similar to how
he was in Kung Fu, where Tilde was town.
60- Shows loran part in rules which backs up Tildes’ claim on mafia winning.
69- Says no to Prop 1 though gives a thought to later vigging lurkers. Prop 2 he doesn’t
think that the mass clai would help due to more “unconfirmedness” in the town
than usual
78-Notes that jumping the gun on claims is bad, especially when we don’t know how
scum kill/block in this game.
82- Questions why people aren’t unvoting.
89- Responds Sarcastically/Confusedly to Az.
156- says that his calls for unvotes (in 82) was him trying to have people still on the tilde
wagon explain why they think he’s lying. Comments that cyan didn’t actually
give a tangible reason for voting him. Asks why Az thinks 82 was an interesting reaction. Quotes Xyre on J-effe and asks if he’s ever played with J-effe before. Comments to ZDS that his accusation against him was because of a simul post.
172- Notes that Cyan hasn’t actually presented any case against him, and that he was
being sarcastic (which sparrow missed earlier)
212- Responds to Rafk and Cyan. Says he’s never been scum on MTS, only once off
site. Says he takes votes seriously and defends himself on every point, gets
sarcastic when there is nothing to defend against. Notes that Cyan has not
brought about any new accusations and that he is misusing the word “baseless”
Mentions other games where he’s acted this way, saying the games cyan brings up
were ones where he was never wagoned.
The first of the big wagons…Ande seems to defend people a bit too much than most people…it’s a bit weird. From the start he defends Tilde, even pre-claim. And in 156, the “overdefensive” post features him defending J-effe to Xyre. Why? That doesn’t seem to make sense to me. However, I don’t see the overdefensiveness in 156 that Cyan claims to see, and the case against him originally was mainly based on feelings, which is tough to defend..no?
J-effe 32-Random Votes Niv, jokingly for spelling.
48-Votes Tilde
87-Unvotes, voting Azrael. Reasons that his proposition (#2) is fishing, but then
again says he’s not for or against mass claiming.
121- Says he said what he said. Doesn’t “bother” (?) if the game is less enjoyable for the
others. His claim will make this clear, if that path is chosen.
Says he doesn’t rely on patterns, mainly on feelings and that they never mislead him.
133/134- Just responds “Yep” to DYH. Tells Az he’ll see soon enough and he’ll claim
on Day 1 for sure.
180- Says ZDS is silly for calling J-effe too aggressive. Says he welcomes any attention
ZDS brings to him, but will not answer any questions about claiming. Says ZDS
should use his skills on people who are actually scummy.
I happen to agree with Az here….J-effe rings like someone preparing a neutral claim. Whether I agree with the claim or not depends on what it is, but clearly something’s off here… Of note, in the last 6 days (1 hour) of Day 1, we need to make sure he claims….his insistence of claiming in the first day is the only thing preventing a wagon on him and he should not get away with it. Until then, not worth pursuing.
The next post contains my pbpas of note on those who are scummy/not totally on town's radar.It should be up in 2 minutes.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
First off, i don't consider him a top suspect, but i wanted to weigh in on.....
Azrael 61- Gives his two propositions: 1. that we vig/lynch all lurkers due to time constraints.
2. That we mass claim on day 1.
80-Notes Tilde’s claim as “unexpected.”
85- Re: Ande’s 82, says “I bet you’d like to know that Osama”.
117- Quoting Jeffe’s 87, votes Jeffe. Says Ande’s reason for asking for unvotes an
Interesting reaction. Asks Phayt if he came here because of invite.
122- Accuses J-effe of being neutral.
138- Notes that it is possible to establish the normal number of kills even with daykills.
Unvotes Jeffe, noting his willingness to claim later, and votes andelijah.
140- Re Vamp’s 139, asks if we need to lynch him (presumably for lurking?)
182- Raises an Eyebrow at vamp’s 142, shrugs off zaz’s vote against him, tells ZDS to
think about it (i think in regards to J-effe?) Says he likes his vote in regards to andelijah’s 172, and seems to have bad thoughts for Foo’s 175
184/5-Clarifies his comment about foo’s 175 was either agreement or disagreement over
his view of aurora. Asks Phayt if he was invited here for this game.
188- Makes the joke that him and rafk voting someone doesn’t make it a wagon.
205- Responds to Zasz with smilies and hi-fives Cyan’s 192.
208- Dislikes Xyre’s comments on Jerub’s post.
218- Jokes back to CP’s 217 saying if he’d had a lotus for each time he was accused.
227- Continues to joke.
Az’s playstyle most compares in this game (believe it or not) to Chamber’s playstyle. He brings up people and posts, and doesn’t give a clear opinion on them…this is meant to draw people into looking these guys over and possibly supplementing/arguing with Az’s thoughts. It’s hard to tell whether this is townie or scummy, he does it in every game regardless, and imo, I’d come back to az after we know whether the people he brings up are town or scum. This is of course, assuming Azrael doesn’t get killed in the meantime.
--------------------------------------------
Now for the more questionable players.
FooFish 11- Random Vote Phayt
104- Postulates that we might not even have scum with kills due to unique nature of the game.
158- Notes that vigs don’t counterclaim, they shoot the imposter.
166- Wonders why we’re still talking about Tilde’s claim when he’s dead if he’s lying.
175- Says doesn’t see the ande case, and that AS is fearmongering. Votes Aurora.
183- Wonders what az is referring to in the previous post (with the swamp symbol)
193- Re: Cyan’s 192, says that Ande has defended the case on him, FoSes him saying
that he’s trying to suppress people speaking out against baseless cases.
213- Re: Cyan, defines baseless. Argues cyan is being contradictory by saying “didn’t a
dequately defend” and “overdefended” at the same time. Says he’d rather start
looking at actual cases like ZDS.
215- Asks why Netfinity says that 213 gave townie vibes.
104 seemed rather townie to me (why would a scum ask that? Wifom I know, but it seemed genuine.) Still the dismissal of Tilde in 166 is a bit stupid, and the vote of AS is weak (there is a case there, but fearmongering? Really?). Responds against Cyan, saying he’d rather look into ZDS, but does not remove his vote from AS or even mention AS? Why? The Netfinity thing looks like scum banter between two players (particularly when a newb scum (Net?) clings to another scum for no reason), though I hate to associate players as scum this early.
Netfinity 12-Random Vote Niv
25-Calls Phayt’s 22 a little emotional
179- Says the ande case holds no water, votes phayt for his 2nd post as an overreaction.
Says Phayt went after AS when there are also other lurkers
214- Says Hawkeye posted earlier in another thread and that he must be lurking. Says
Foo gives him townie vibes.
216- Says the town vibes were “just a hunch.”
Hasn’t posted much, but more or less agrees with Foofish at every point on Ande (a notable fact due to 214). Phayt comments are really weak, as is the vote for him; by that point a lot had happened, yet still after Phayt? No other comments? Why not? Raises suspicion on Hawkeye un-necessarily (His only strike is lurking, we know this, if he doesn’t show up he’ll be prodded….why the co1mment now?) The townie vibe comment is enormously scummy (as stated in the foofish part) and seems like newb scum clinging to other scum.
The next two on my scum list are interesting, as no one's brought em up yet....
Carrion Pigeons 18-Random Votes GT, lectures Phayt about bad “First Post” posts
29-Disagrees with Cyan about “first vote” equaling a random vote. Though he says
(jokingly?) that everyone basically rolls their eyes at random votes anyhow
33- Replies to Phayt’s 22 saying that he isn’t elitist toward MS and that Phayt’s post
WAS spam
46- Notes Tilde’s logic doesn’t make sense unless he knows information that a townie
wouldn’t know. Says there’s good reason for suspicion on Tilde.
51- Notes that it’s a lot of votes on Tilde (6)
55- Notes the irony in Niv saying Tilde isn’t making sense. Says that either there’s a lot
of townies anxious to get out of random voting or that there’s nontown players trying to get a bandwagon rolling. Implicates Niv and Jerubbaal.
67- Disagrees with Az’s Prop 1, says Prop 2 is fine, but that he doubts it will do anything.
91- Responds snidely to loran over his question about Tilde’s season.
98- Just laughs at loran. (For the record, you critique Phayt on spam and then you post
this? So “First Post” is worse than being an ass? )
112- Can’t see the mafia benefit in Tilde answering Xyre.
126- Jokes that DYH’s explanation would let tilde vig every 10 minutes.
151- Unvotes and Votes ZDS for FOSing az then agreeing with him on most likely scum
195- Notes it’d be interesting if we get details about non-canon characters in daily blurbs,
and that he likes his vote.
217- Re Netfinity’s hunch, says there’s a lot in this game. Jokingly says he has a hunch
Az is scum. (I think its jokingly)
222- Continues to joke with Az about the black lotus.
Despite his being annoying to me (I don’t think that’s intended to provoke a reaction so it’s a nontell) his 46, 51, and 55 are pretty bad for me imo. 67 also seems almost like the reaction of a scum knowing that Prop 2 is harmless. The ZDS vote to me doesn’t seem appropriate to me…its too obvious after that post (more on whether I think its justified later). It just seems really easy for a player to vote another after they FOS 3 players and vote another. The joking late on despite all this seems a bit scummy to me, especially him missing out on the scummyness of Netfinity and Foofish’s hunch interaction. With all this going on, he’s spending time ignoring this or letting DYH take the lead on ZDS and joking with Az…that doesn’t seem townie to me.
And finally:
Cyan 20-Says random voting stage is random spam, except for on MTGNews
100-Calls Tilde’s claim the classic claim of a serial killer.
105- says he doesn’t believe tilde, but that that should be resolved soon enough. Votes
Andelijah for not coming across as “sincere” (in response to 89? 82?)
129- Is confident the vig can kill once per 3 hours.
132- Agrees with Raf re DYH’s answering being a town tell.
141-Says he agrees with Az’ vote placement.
144-Re: Zaz thinks that its unlikely that Az is scum and that he’s not hard to read, just
hard to pin a case on him, and thus he gets NKed a lot.
160- Says the defensiveness of Ande’s 156 makes him confident that cyan is looking in
the right place.
192- says that anyone who doesn’t see the over defensiveness of Ande is terrible.
194- Re: Foo, says that a case is not baseless when multiple people agree with it. Says
Foo is wrong and that the twon wont let someone get lynched on a baseless case.
196- Says Az is generally not serious unless its about voting someone. Doesn’t get why
Xyre keeps goig on about loran. Agrees with CP’s sentiments but thinks Ande’s
better than ZDS as a wagon.
204- Asks Jerub: who he’s talking about in 202. Tells loran to go see if Ande is playing
anything like he did as town.
209- Wonders why Xyre thinks Jerub would be desperate to get Ande lynched on day1.
228- Agrees with ZDS about the TFF-Netfinity thing. Says TFF asking netfinity why he feels that way makes it more obvious. Unvotes Ande, Votes TFF.
His feelings on Ande are interesting…its hard to tell if Cyan’s being normal Cyan or scum Cyan, particularly with the comments of 192-196. Still, 204 to me seems like scumCyan to me as he changes his approach with me to get me onto Ande’s case. (It seems as if he is tailoring his comments to manipulate people to vote ande..for the less experienced/less headstrong players he's bullying, but for me he suggests i look up games and compare.) Then he votes foo there suddenly giving up on Ande without even a comment, which is another scum Cyan trait (When scum, Cyan often starts focused on a player, but will subtly “give in” to other players if they try to direct him elsewhere). The problem with the feeling is that the TFF/Netfinity reaction seems scummy, but that wouldn’t preclude scum Cyan from getting on the wagon to try and distance himself from them, so it doesn’t shake me feeling that this is scumCyan.
To sum up, My top 4 scum list would be:
1. Cyan
2/3. Foofish and Netfinity
4. Carrion Pigeons
Vote Cyan
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Thanks to ZDS for clarifying on the context of my quote. I should have quoted the argument I was addressing, my bad.
@loran - 38 was directed at what was going on with Phayt, I don't believe I saw the idiotic Tilde stuff until after I posted. So yes, simul. The response to Tilde comes about three minutes later.
Anywho, I almost always hate pbpa's, because they're so easy to distort, but I think loran's actually done a pretty reasonable job of keeping it free of editorial distortion. I haven't decided if it's a useful summary yet, but at least it's an accurate summary.
CP is actually an interesting avenue to look down. He went after Phayt for being spammy, but he's been pretty spammy himself lately, after Az had established the precedence. There's some inconsistency going on here.
I'm not seeing the case on Foo. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure what the case on Foo is. ZDS accuses him of defending a dodgy townie to get town points (this is a non-argument) and easy wagoning (which holds some water, but not much). I find this kinda funny, because ZDS has been bouncing about between people a lot, looking for something to stick, yet he's accusing Foo of basically the same thing. I'm quite surprised that the wagon has taken off so quickly on so little basis.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Responds against Cyan, saying he’d rather look into ZDS, but does not remove his vote from AS or even mention AS? Why?
Well, I already posted my feelings on AS, and he didn't make another post, so there wasn't much with which to follow up.
As for Cyan (and less so Netfinity), I agree with your read. I haven't liked the way Cyan was pushing the ande case, and his vote on me looks pretty bad too; the only reason I can see for him voting me is because I've been busy poking massive holes in his arguments. Netfinity's random assignment of townie points seemed odd, but his explanation obviously didn't give me much one way or the other.
Thanks to ZDS for clarifying on the context of my quote. I should have quoted the argument I was addressing, my bad.
@loran - 38 was directed at what was going on with Phayt, I don't believe I saw the idiotic Tilde stuff until after I posted. So yes, simul. The response to Tilde comes about three minutes later.
Anywho, I almost always hate pbpa's, because they're so easy to distort, but I think loran's actually done a pretty reasonable job of keeping it free of editorial distortion. I haven't decided if it's a useful summary yet, but at least it's an accurate summary.
Thanks for the quick answer...that's what i thought, but I had to ask.
CP is actually an interesting avenue to look down. He went after Phayt for being spammy, but he's been pretty spammy himself lately, after Az had established the precedence. There's some inconsistency going on here.
I'm not seeing the case on Foo. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure what the case on Foo is. ZDS accuses him of defending a dodgy townie to get town points (this is a non-argument) and easy wagoning (which holds some water, but not much). I find this kinda funny, because ZDS has been bouncing about between people a lot, looking for something to stick, yet he's accusing Foo of basically the same thing. I'm quite surprised that the wagon has taken off so quickly on so little basis.
The case on Foo is as follows: Votes Aurora for weak reasoning, right after someone else does so. Meanwhile, he keeps his vote where it is and proceeds later on in to talk about going onto ZDS out of the blue (Still voting AS, whered that go?) And his interaction with Netfinity is what's brought it up all of the sudden...it looks like Netfinity is cozying up to Foofish, and he makes a post as if trying to distance himself ("Oh, and where do these townie feelings come from about me?"). It just doesn't seem genuine imo...less grateful townie and more "Get Away from Me, You fool!".
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Hmmm. First PBPA was pretty solid summary. Second is mixed.
Carrion's interactions with Tilde were curious, definitely. After that I didn't spot anything.
Netfinity could very well be a good read. He was flying under my radar.
Foofish has some logic issues popping up. Not sure if they're malevolent or not, yet, but I tend to think they're benign so far.
I don't consider any of the pieces of evidence you cited against Cyan as genuine tells. I think you're jumping at shadows and ignoring context.
----
As for my reasoning on Andelijah, my argument is in complete conformity with Cyan's, though I'll try to carry it more persuasively. The contempt in Ande's responses is atypical in his town mentality, but in scum with egos, sarcasm and dismissal is a grade A piece of evidence. Especially if you're not practiced in concealing it. We're not simply in the business to look for scummy actions, the area I used to concentrate on as an analyst. We're also here to analyze attitudes. It was incredible how much that shift of focus onto certain specific town vs. scum attitudes has propelled the accuracy of my reads over the past few months. I feel like a stick figure who just discovered the third dimension.
Point is, it's a tool we shouldn't ignore because it seems to be soft evidence.
Unless we find another underlying cause, I'm inclined to believe that the root symptom of Ande's dismissal and contempt and antagonism is his alignment. Wouldn't stake my life on it yet, but it's a solid rock to peek under.
@loran: My being annoying to you was not what you think it was. I thought (and still think) that it was expressly suspicious for you not to realize what was going on. It smells of fakery. Also, I'll just note that every time you do that whole "PBPA of everyone else" thing, you're scum who's intimidated and trying not to give off scum tells by focusing on specific players over others.
Other than that, your case is basically just you noticing things you don't expect and then calling them scummy.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I was going to say that J-Effe's post 229, which is the most blatant bandwagon ever, was scummy enough for me to unvote FooFish. Thankfully, FooFish managed to one up Jeffe and post something even more scummy, confirming my suspicion in him..again.
And seriously, FooFish, try to make some sense. You think that I'm OMGUS voting you in response to you defending Andelijah. How does this make sense? What would this even accomplish? Let's say things go my way, and you get run up and lynched and..what? Turn up town? That would only make your stance look MORE valid, and would mean that I went out of my way to help lynch you in an effort to make myself look LESS credible? I mean seriously.
Of course, if you are scum, then the post that you just made makes perfect sense, because you know that, if you are lynched and come up as scum, it will be damaging to Andelijah. So yeah. Thanks for admitting to being scum.
And honestly. When someone says 'I think that this person is town', there is absolutely no way whatsoever that the person they said this about responding to them with 'Why' is anything but a completely scum reaction. I mean seriously. It honestly made me laugh when I saw that, it's absurd.
And seriously, FooFish, try to make some sense. You think that I'm OMGUS voting you in response to you defending Andelijah. How does this make sense? What would this even accomplish? Let's say things go my way, and you get run up and lynched and..what? Turn up town? That would only make your stance look MORE valid, and would mean that I went out of my way to help lynch you in an effort to make myself look LESS credible? I mean seriously.
Between my FOSing you and defending your lynch target, yes, I think you had plenty of reason to OMGUS vote me. As for what it would accomplish, are you saying scum never try to lynch townies because it ruins their credibility? I don't think you can defend that line of reasoning. I think you would have plenty to gain in a mislynch, even if it makes you slightly less credible.
And honestly. When someone says 'I think that this person is town', there is absolutely no way whatsoever that the person they said this about responding to them with 'Why' is anything but a completely scum reaction.
I didn't think I had done anything specifically "townish" there, so I was curious about his odd handing out of townie points. There didn't seem to be any cause or point to his comment, so I was trying to figure out why.
In the game of mafia, your credibility is your life. *Especially* if you're scum. Besides, you're misunderstanding my point. My point is that it makes no sense, and accomplishes nothing for me, to go so far out of my way to 'OMGUS' you in this instance. This all started with me attacking Andelijah. You are asserting that not only is my attack on him misplaced, but that I decided to OMGUS attack you because..you defended Andelijah? This literally makes no sense whatsoever. If this were to result in you getting lynched, that would make me look bad for leading your lynch, AND would make it less likely that I could get Andelijah lynched. Your assertion is nonsense.
In reailty, the one that is guilty of OMGUS here is you. I voted you for something that I felt was scummy on your part, and you immediately stepped into me and attacked me more heavily.
And really, you completely gave yourself away with your response to Netfinity. When you're town and someone else says they think you're town, it is simply unthinkable that you would question them on this. But this makes plenty of sense when you're scum, and you want other people to perceive you as town.
Lastly, trying to push off a valid case against you as OMGUS is just one more scummy action on your part.
@ZDS(I think): I disagree, I think that TFF and Andelijah are both scum. But..one at a time, eh.
Geeze, if you think that, is equal to an attack, then you're prolly really sensitive.
I wasnt attacking him; because at the moment he isnt at the top of my list, and i dont bother attacking 2-4 people at once, (even if mathmatically its the most efficient way... one of them's bound to be scum). IF i attack someone, i attack one person, and will comment on the various wagons that come up to let the playerbase know my position on said wagons, but i wont actively participate in those wagons.
Um, you said you agreed with the case against him and added a superficial reason to strengthen it. That's an attack.
Your reaction to my passing mention is not entirely unexpected, but the way you tried to semantic out of being seen as attacking ZDS was... sensitive?
Additional: I have skimmed through loran's PBPAs, but comment will have to wait until tomorrow. I haven't really looked at either FooFish or J-Effe either, as neither has caught my eye on their own, so I'll look over that and try to comment on them tomorrow as well.
EBWOTP: Sorry, confused myself between two posts. I meant to say ZDS: I don't think that (claiming canon/non-canon) is necessary, although I also think it was unnecessary for reed to claim non-canon.
My fear is that if we claim canon/non-canon, we send out a smoke signal to the town as to where to hypothetically find everyone's favorite 24 character (Jack Bauer). I don't have any qualms with it outside of that, though, I'm pretty much always in favor of soft claims.
As for Loran's giant PBPAs - it is too early in the morning to read all that, I'll get to it at work tomorrow. One thing did strike me, though:
@CP: I know we've seen loran do this before. Do you recall what game(s) it was? I wanted to validate your behavioral comment about him.
Oh, and ZDS still bothers me with his ridiculously flippant attitude. I need to check and see if that's par for the course for him as scum. Has he been scum more recently than L5R?
@CP: I know we've seen loran do this before. Do you recall what game(s) it was? I wanted to validate your behavioral comment about him.
Oh, and ZDS still bothers me with his ridiculously flippant attitude. I need to check and see if that's par for the course for him as scum. Has he been scum more recently than L5R?
Ooh, ooh, i can answer i can answer that! I can be like DYH here....I'll give you a hint though DYH and CP...I've done this type of analysis once, and I was town, so don't waste your time looking to try and back up that statement.
And if you really are stupid and still want to look, it's in a mini game on the first page of the mafia forum. That ought-to narrow it down.
(Also @CP, you being annoying to me with DYH i was treating as a null-tell in my analysis, though i was curious how posts like that are any better than the "FIRST POST" post that you slammed phayt for in the beginning. Do enlighten me on how a LOL post is any better.)
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Agreed on the Canon-Non-Canon claim being non-helpful. While i doubt that ability distribution is skewed toward one group or another (see Tilde and his claim), certain characters (Jack Bauer anyone?) are likely to be easily confirmable from the former group, so lets not do it.
@Az, my vote on Cyan (as well as my case) is not one for usual generic tells...i find Cyan gives those off in spades as both town and scum, and thus it's hard to tell the difference. But his actions in this game appear to me to be more like the Scum-Cyan, as far as i can tell, than town Cyan is. Town Cyan is more focussed on a single player (wouldnt back off ande to vote foofish right there unless a heavy wagon developed and foo became extraordinarily scummy), treats everyone who disagrees like idiots, and constantly repeats the same thing. This does not read like that, thus my vote.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Also, Zchinque, Rahl/Stormblind, and Vampyr still need to answer my questions, thanks.
though one more question comes up now:
Zasz:
I didn't realize I've been wagon'd yet - or even voted.
Where's this coming from? Thanks.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Pft. It is such a non-truth that I refuse to ever back of a person unless a heavy wagon develops on someone else. As I've said some times since moving my vote, I still view Andelijah as scum, I just view FooFish as moreso. Sometimes, something is just so scummy that you have to go after it. Such is the case here. FooFish acts more like scum with each passing post, too.
Rurouni Kenshin Mafia is a great example of this. I abandoned my case against Wuffles when a scummier target(Bateleur) came along.
Besides, what you're basically saying is 'I find fault with Cyan because he is acting like town, when usually I perceive him as acting like scum when he is town'. People do learn as they go along, and besides, it's pretty funny that you're like, reverse metagaming me.
Pft. It is such a non-truth that I refuse to ever back of a person unless a heavy wagon develops on someone else. As I've said some times since moving my vote, I still view Andelijah as scum, I just view FooFish as moreso. Sometimes, something is just so scummy that you have to go after it. Such is the case here. FooFish acts more like scum with each passing post, too.
Rurouni Kenshin Mafia is a great example of this. I abandoned my case against Wuffles when a scummier target(Bateleur) came along.
Besides, what you're basically saying is 'I find fault with Cyan because he is acting like town, when usually I perceive him as acting like scum when he is town'. People do learn as they go along, and besides, it's pretty funny that you're like, reverse metagaming me.
You abandoned your case against wuffles in that case because bateleur was enormously bad with his claim vs the mass-claim. Completely different than here....that game was broken by a mass-claim, and you were able to see that and move to the scum caught by the mass-claim.
While i think foofish is scummy here, its not even close to the level bateleur was.
--------------------------------
@AS, 91 and 98 to me are CP claiming non-canon, not 67.....67 could be either way. Which is why he's 4th on my list....because while everything else makes me think scum, i don't think CP would mock me for wondering why Tilde isn't canon if CP was scum (and im sure the scum know that some are canon and some are noncanon) but he might if he was noncanon and didnt realize the presence of actually canon characters in the game...
Also , @Cyan, ignoring J-effe is the play right now...he's acting all survivor-ish, and he will claim later today, count on it.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
@Az, my vote on Cyan (as well as my case) is not one for usual generic tells...i find Cyan gives those off in spades as both town and scum, and thus it's hard to tell the difference. But his actions in this game appear to me to be more like the Scum-Cyan, as far as i can tell, than town Cyan is. Town Cyan is more focussed on a single player (wouldnt back off ande to vote foofish right there unless a heavy wagon developed and foo became extraordinarily scummy), treats everyone who disagrees like idiots, and constantly repeats the same thing. This does not read like that, thus my vote.
That's where I think you have to take an eye to context. It's early on day one. Nobody's reads are that solid yet. Switching around is to be expected.
In the game of mafia, your credibility is your life. *Especially* if you're scum. Besides, you're misunderstanding my point. My point is that it makes no sense, and accomplishes nothing for me, to go so far out of my way to 'OMGUS' you in this instance. This all started with me attacking Andelijah. You are asserting that not only is my attack on him misplaced, but that I decided to OMGUS attack you because..you defended Andelijah? This literally makes no sense whatsoever. If this were to result in you getting lynched, that would make me look bad for leading your lynch, AND would make it less likely that I could get Andelijah lynched. Your assertion is nonsense.
So now, when you lynch me and I come up town, you can make yourself look better by refering back to this argument on how your actions don't make any sense as scum. Not bad. A little too WIFOM for my taste, but a good effort.
In reailty, the one that is guilty of OMGUS here is you. I voted you for something that I felt was scummy on your part, and you immediately stepped into me and attacked me more heavily.
Yeah, about that, I'm pretty sure I was suspicious of you first. I FOSed you for your odd handling of the ande case, and then you counterattacked me and in a fairly suspicious way. So, yes, your second suspicious attack has made me even more suspicious of you.
When you're town and someone else says they think you're town, it is simply unthinkable that you would question them on this. But this makes plenty of sense when you're scum, and you want other people to perceive you as town.
So, you're saying that I was trying to get people to perceive me as town... by doing something that is unthinkable as town? That doesn't make any sense.
Now, if only we had an explanation that made sense... I know! How about the truth? -I tend to ask people questions when I see unusual activity; Net's random assignment of townie points looked odd, therefore, I questioned him on it (my main thoughts being that he might be scum and I had said something in that post which helped him).
I find it fascinating that you are telling me why I did something. Wuffles was plenty scummy in that game, and I was completely convinced he was scum until probably the last day or two of the game. Bateleur probably acted less scummy than Wuffles overall honestly, his claim just sucked something fierce.
The point is that you said that I won't move off of a scummy suspect unless there is a major wagon on someone else, and I have proven that this is not true. I moved from a wagon with more people(Wuffles) to a wagon with nobody(Bateleur) on it, and it took me considerable effort to get Bateleur lynched at that. And obviously, I was town. So clearly, your assessment is inaccurate.
@TFF:
So now, when you lynch me and I come up town, you can make yourself look better by refering back to this argument on how your actions don't make any sense as scum. Not bad. A little too WIFOM for my taste, but a good effort.
Feel free to find an example of me, as town or scum or anything in between, using that argument to defend myself. Or, ask anyone if they remember me having done so. I post plenty, it can't be hard. BTW, it's not going to happen. Aside from that, you're not even defending yourself or your actions. You're just trying to discredit me, and failing beautifully.
Yeah, about that, I'm pretty sure I was suspicious of you first. I FOSed you for your odd handling of the ande case, and then you counterattacked me and in a fairly suspicious way. So, yes, your second suspicious attack has made me even more suspicious of you.
An FoS means a fat lot of nothing, except that you're scum trying to throw suspicion on a townie but wanting to test the waters first. And yes, I did attack you, but no, it was not in a 'suspicious way'. Or if it was, maybe you can explain how. The points that I attacked you on are valid, and multiple people have agreed with them. For that matter, ZDS attacked you for them FIRST. Again, you are clearly not debating the points that you are being attacked for, you are just trying to strawman the fact that I am attacking you at all. Thoroughly scummy.
So, you're saying that I was trying to get people to perceive me as town... by doing something that is unthinkable as town? That doesn't make any sense.
Now, if only we had an explanation that made sense... I know! How about the truth? -I tend to ask people questions when I see unusual activity; Net's random assignment of townie points looked odd, therefore, I questioned him on it (my main thoughts being that he might be scum and I had said something in that post which helped him).
Yes, essentially this means that you, as scum, tried too hard and got caught. It happens. Are you saying that scum never do anything under the guise of trying to promote themselves as being town? Also, are you really, *really* trying to assert that someone reading you as town is 'unusual'? Is this a confession to being scum? I don't see what else it could be. Thinking that he's scum because he said that he read you as scum is, literally, mindboggling nonsensical.
-BTW, I'm done defending this case.
Ahh, the pen-ultimate scumtell. You say what you want, realizing that your answers are woefully inadequate, then declare yourself quit of the case so that you don't look worse if you 'neglect' to defend yourself further.
This is pretty awesome, I haven't seen a scum as obvious as you in..sometime now.
If you honestly think that TFF is being genuine, then, you fail at reading compehension. He couldn't be any less genuine if he typed 'The following statement(s) are fake' before his posts.
Ahh, the pen-ultimate scumtell. You say what you want, realizing that your answers are woefully inadequate, then declare yourself quit of the case so that you don't look worse if you 'neglect' to defend yourself further.
This is pretty awesome, I haven't seen a scum as obvious as you in..sometime now.
We're seeing a lot of errors in argumentation, but I'm sensing a good bit of genuine townie frustration as well.
I don't think he's faking it. Right now I read him as town.
If you honestly think that TFF is being genuine, then, you fail at reading compehension. He couldn't be any less genuine if he typed 'The following statement(s) are fake' before his posts.
The emotion, the frustration and self-righteousness, is genuine.
There is no scum motivator for the self-righteousness.
He's not doing the town any favors by his hostility and refusal to reply further, but I think the motivations for those are simply a gut-reaction to being attacked.
Finally finished my close look at the most recent events (read: what happened during my sleep).
I found a post by Az I missed earlier, where he seems to actually act serious, and while I'm not happy, an explanation for his sudden change to ande makes me more comfortable with my unvote.
There are still many players I haven't looked into (e.g. the whole scum list by loran; I can't simply make me go through the PBPA part II right now), but I have considered several cases (andelijah, aurorasparrow, ZDS) as not worth following. jerubbaal on the other hand seems a good lead. He always ends up on an existing wagon it seems - and the argument to vote ZDS is not worth anything. Vote jerubbaal Unless something terrible happens you get reviewed before 12:40 PM.
I personally thought TFF was genuine - which is making me tend to agree with loran on Cyan. I'm trying to be objective on my special Cyan review nevertheless (probably the only one I'm going to make for today, if any).
greetings
Z
Two things, 1. If you can't understand why az became serious all of a sudden....really? He became serious because he had more things to say than satisfaction/dissatisfaction and would like to say them than try and point them out to other players. It's actually a town-tell from az (when he's scum imo he's more likely to try and act crazy until he's homing in on a person and trying to get them lynched.)
2. Jerub's greatest failing has been being the 3rd vote 3 times (me randomly, Tilde, and ZDS). And if you think that the first two are examples of a scum trend, you must seriously be joking.
For the record, I happen to agree with Cyan Re Foo's "I'm done defending myself." I disagree with Cyan's third point that foo responded to (If someone calls me townie randomly, im rather curious to know why for my own knowledge, though i might be biassed since ive been trying to figure how to act that way as scum for a while now)
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@Cyan and For the record Everyone Else, Calling someone overdefensive is a really really weak argument. So is saying someone didnt adequately answer a comment. Explain WHY please. I happen to agree with you on Foo, but this is starting to bother me. Seeming Overdefensive is not always a scum tell. It's when someone in their defense starts being inconsistant and scummy that it becomes so (That's my tell, not being overdefensive, though its often mischaracterized as such ).
If you're going to make an accusation at somebody, they have to be able to answer it. Unlike the case on ande, where.....it seemed a bit impossible.
2 more questions to people. Foofish: Explain the cases on AuroraSparrow and ZDS, and any other players you may be fishy of at this time. If you no longer agree that those previous 2 are scummy, please explain why.
and:
Netfinity: Can you articulate where your hunch seemed to come from about Foofish, and why you felt the need to talk about it there. Also, please explain the Phayt case you are currently on.
Unvote for now. Az is right in one thing, I probably need more actions/reactions from Cyan to tell if my read is correct, and the questions i pose to these two are more pressing atm.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I don't read it as self-righteous, I read it as complete desperation in realization of the fact that he over-stepped his bounds.
Maybe you can explain why you see it how you do, I see you as 'most likely to be town #1' right now.
He's oozing confidence in this post.
So now, when you lynch me and I come up town, you can make yourself look better by refering back to this argument on how your actions don't make any sense as scum. Not bad. A little too WIFOM for my taste, but a good effort.
A scum would generally try to say something like this as a scare tactic, as intimidation. Here, he's saying it a smug sense of superiority: "not bad", "good effort".
Yeah, about that, I'm pretty sure I was suspicious of you first. I FOSed you for your odd handling of the ande case, and then you counterattacked me and in a fairly suspicious way. So, yes, your second suspicious attack has made me even more suspicious of you.
Referring back to a mindset he can clearly recall, with confidence in his viewpoint underscored by italics.
So, you're saying that I was trying to get people to perceive me as town... by doing something that is unthinkable as town? That doesn't make any sense.
A weak rhetorical point, but it demonstrates the one-sidedness of his perspective of reflecting on himself as town.
Now, if only we had an explanation that made sense... I know! How about the truth? -I tend to ask people questions when I see unusual activity; Net's random assignment of townie points looked odd, therefore, I questioned him on it (my main thoughts being that he might be scum and I had said something in that post which helped him).
Again, he's arguing for a story he really, really seems to be convinced of, and he's doing it with anger at being questioned for something that he feels his explanation for: "the truth", is perfectly suited to explain.
Townie vibes all over the place there, even amidst the errors in logic.
Never on this site. I played once as scum off-site, but that game didn't go too well.
I take votes seriously. When I get voted, I defend myself, no matter how much or how little evidence the person has against me. My defense just tends to get sarcastic when the evidence approaches nothing, because I have nothing else to respond to.
I did defend myself. You have not brought up any new accusations, other than that I am now overdoing my defense.
That's not true...
A case is baseless when you have close to zero evidence, and it is even worse when you're wrong (as opposed to being based on zero evidence and being lucky).
Of course I'm not acting like I did in those games. Absolutely no one ever voted/FoSed me in those games. If you want to read better examples, look at Cat or Cold War Mafia, where I actually got wagoned.
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last updated 03/23/11
Baseless (adjective): without a basis in reason or fact
For example, a baseless case is one in which the "scumtells" are listed as looking town, posting at the same time as another player, and bugging someone.
So, he didn't defend himself adequately while he was overdefending himself? Right, that makes a bunch of sense.
Yeah, he already did that. You might want to try reading the post you said contained inadequate overdefense.
Maybe not, but we sure could waste a lot of time deciding that. I'd rather spend our time looking at actual cases.
On that note, I'm gong to start looking at ZDS, the case on him seems to actually be based on something.
Anyway, the Foo's most recent post gave me townie vibes.
Any particular reason why?
I have a hunch that Az is scum, BTW.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
If I had a Black Lotus for every time someone thought that....:cool:
I will definately have a complete catch up by Sunday night. This weekend just happened to be my monthly trip to my parents/hang out with friends. I will be back to normal once my wife and I return to the foothills of WV tomorrow early evening.
After getting home, getting settled, my first act will be to catch up with the rest of the posting.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Geeze, if you think that, is equal to an attack, then you're prolly really sensitive.
I wasnt attacking him; because at the moment he isnt at the top of my list, and i dont bother attacking 2-4 people at once, (even if mathmatically its the most efficient way... one of them's bound to be scum). IF i attack someone, i attack one person, and will comment on the various wagons that come up to let the playerbase know my position on said wagons, but i wont actively participate in those wagons.
Er, you'd have a Black Lotus?
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
3 aurorasparrow – Phayt, StormBlind, TheFooFish
3 jerubbaal – GiftsTrix, RafaelK, Xyre
3 ZeDorkSlipeur – carrion pigeons, Disrupt_Your_Hymn, jerubbaal
2 Azrael - J-Effe IV, ZasZ234
1 Niv –Zchinque
1 Phayt – NetFinity
1 TheFooFish - ZeDorkSlipeur
6 Not Voting - andelijah, aurorasparrow, HAWKEYE7, loran16, Niv, ~Tilde~, Vampyr
With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.
12:21:13...
12:21:14...
12:21:15...
12:21:16...
@Mod is the Red section correct? By my votecount, ande has not voted anyone this game.
@Mod, can we get a mod prod on Hawkeye?
More coming in about a half an hour, ive been doing an analysis in word that i have to finish.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
In light of the fact that he's posted in Random Mafia, I'm sure he's aware the game has started. If he doesn't post by 6:00 PM tomorrow, he'll be up for a prod, and then possibly replacement after that.
I've got one on Niv. Seeing as there are some active cases, I'll unvote for now though.
On J-Effe:
Votes Azrael for “fishing” when he suggests a massclaim, but is at the same time not for or against said massclaim. Seems strange to me.
Stating that he relies on feelings, and that they are hardly ever wrong, seems like a nice way for scum to avoid giving much reasons for their voting habits. Also, it seems unlikely to me that his intuition is that great, unless it's somehow based on actual tells, that can be pointed out to the rest of us. @ J-Effe: Could you please link me to some examples of where your intuition has proven correct?
Given that he has said he will claim at some point during this 3-hour block (and I agree with Az, it seems he is setting up some sort of neutral claim), I'll hold off of voting him, for now.
Not seeing the case against Jerubbaal at this time. His last couple of posts have not been great, but I don't see it as damning at this point.
Sleep now, will look at other possible cases tomorrow. Seeing as there's just been a votecount, looking at ZDS, Ande and AuroraSparrow will be my top priority in the morning.
Alcoholic Mafia - Town LVP
Super Mario Galaxy
Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
EchoChrome
Metal Gear Solid 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Assassin's Creed 2
Batman: Arkham Asylum
BioShock
Demon's Souls
Final Fantasy I, II, IV, VII & XII
Kingdom Hearts
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mass Effect
Metal Gear Solid 4
Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
Yes, and it'd be beautiful, and we'd snuggle into the wee hours of the morning.
On recent (and interesting) developments : I am somewhat surprised about how each and every attempt on a wagon fails in this game. Overall, I get a feeling of generalized unfocusing, so it's hard to get a proper read... Well let's try something then. Unvote, vote TheFooFish.
If i ask you a question, please respond. Thanks.
@Zchinque- In 116 you agree Tilde should answer Xyre, but you say Niv's 115 was scummy.
Niv's 115 was "The Serial Killer should answer the questions at him."
If you agreed on the questions part, what was scummy? Calling Tilde a serial killer? If that was scummy, what are your thoughts on Cyan and RafaelK doing the same thing during this game?
@Rahl/Stormblind, in post 164 you bring up that Jason Santos isn't in the wiki...when that point had come up before. What prompted that comment then, you'd had plenty of time to look up tilde's claim before then and had posted after Tilde's claim.
Also, can you explain how #220 is townie? it seems like you're trying to say you can fan the fires of other wagons while maintaining a vote on the one you are currently on. This sounds scummy, no?
@Jerubbaal- When you posted post #38, had you seen posts 36 and 37 (From Tilde and DYH respectively)? Or was it a simul?
@Vampyr-When you've caught up, explain post #142?
-------------------------------------------------------
Okay, the pbpas im going to copy and paste im going to post in a post coming up right next. Expect it in 5 minutes.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
ZDS
145-First post, says Phayt’s annoying and too serious too early. Tilde’s also annoying
and that he approves of the pre-claim wagon on him. FOSes Jeffe for his
aggression. Votes Ande for saying the same thing as CP (in reality, the two posts
were a simul). FOSes Az for calling J-effe a neutral. FoSes Tilde as well and
sums up saying that Jeffe and andelijah are mafia and Tilde’s SK.
149- Says there can always be neutrals in mafia (Re: Alx’s 147)
152- Says CP is wrong, that he agrees with Az’ scum list, but that he dislikes his calling
J-effe a neutral rather than scum. Says CP is reaching.
162- Unvotes, saying it was a vote based on not realizing the simul and where the 8
lynches came from. Votes J-effe.
165- Notes that Santos is mentioned in the scene but not Tilde, but concedes it gives
Tilde some credit.
197- Responds to DYH, saying he can’t have helped coming into the thread so late.
Explains feelings about Ande-His original vote was strongly based on a
Misunderstanding, without the misunderstanding he still thinks he’s scummy but
less so that his vote on J-effe. Notes Jerub’s comment is stupid, and responds to
rahl saying he was usually a better player. Notes Foofish is acting scummy for
speaking the obvious whenever he posts, and doesn’t like d-fence of ande or
attack on aurora. FoSes foofish with the promise of going after him after his
current target.
206- Responds to DYH (again) saying that his post was the result of him not pretending
nothing happened during the 150 posts before he came in. Says its possible to
suspect ande while saying that other attacks on him are weak. Says that DYH is
turning “molehills into mountains.” Responds to Jerub’s comments on his
defense by saying the fact that Az could be scum means Az’ votes are wifom
anyhow and saying therefore its not impossible to agree with those players being
scummy.
211- explains that Jerub was talking bout ZDS, not Andelijah.
221- Disagrees that foo’s post was townie-like. Says that he seems like a protecting a
Questionable player for townie points, and is going onto the next easy wagon.
Says he is yet to take any risk. Votes foofish, and states that ande probably isn’t
scum if foo is but the opposite isn’t true.
Ah, ZDS, ZDS. Personally, I don’t mind 145. It’s less subtle than Zaz’s 143 (more on this in a second), but it seems to be a typical ZDS type post….i always recall ZDS making liberal use of multiple FoSes, and it makes sense in a post where he’s just coming in after a decent amount has happened.
I disagree on whether you can call a player scum while agreeing with his other players of suspicion list…I know some wifom is involved, but its unlikely thatd he’d be suspecting all scum, no? Still I understand that comment.
DYH is correct in that his comments on Ande are a bit off, but I can understand them…kind of (Ande’s defense of J-effe and Tilde is weird) . And the misunderstanding of a simulpost is understandable. Moreover the Foofish case is legit imo (more on this in a second).
Zaz
143-apologizes for being late, says he might’ve been on tilde’s case but he’s giving him
the benefit of the doubt due to the vig claim. Doesn’t understand the andelijah
case. Accuses az of causing fear with proposition 1 and 2 and accuses Az of
OMGUSing. Claims not to give in to az’ reputation, and votes him. Doesn’t get
Jeffe’s wagon, says he has suspicion of Phayt and Niv.
146-Clears up 8 game days vs 18 days per game day thing with Cyan. Says that why
doesn’t cyan let Zaz handle az on his own.
189- Quotes phayt’s reason for continuing to vote AS in 159 and says that he wants to
switch his vote to Phayt, but Az is acting like a 3 year old. Says Ande answered
his nonexistent case well. Says the namedrop in the scene doesn’t mean anything.
Explains fearmongering and once again asks Az to explain himself.
Yet another lurker…..#143 is really really really really REALLY bad. Seriously, you thought ZDS’ 145 is bad? LOOK AT THIS. Votes Az with a bunch of random accusations (Fearmongering has got to stop being cited as a scum-tell.) including a crappy OMGUS accusation. Doesn’t get an obvious J-effe wagon, and has suspicion of Niv and Phayt as well…all in one post? This is not the same thing as the ZDS post? Moreover, 189….doesn’t help the matter..it’s like he’s testing the waters for a Phayt vote while keeping a useless vote on Az. He’s not the play atm, but personally of the lurkers, he needs a bit of attention to him.
Andelijah
58- Notes why Tilde’s logic is unsound, then comments that Tilde is being similar to how
he was in Kung Fu, where Tilde was town.
60- Shows loran part in rules which backs up Tildes’ claim on mafia winning.
69- Says no to Prop 1 though gives a thought to later vigging lurkers. Prop 2 he doesn’t
think that the mass clai would help due to more “unconfirmedness” in the town
than usual
78-Notes that jumping the gun on claims is bad, especially when we don’t know how
scum kill/block in this game.
82- Questions why people aren’t unvoting.
89- Responds Sarcastically/Confusedly to Az.
156- says that his calls for unvotes (in 82) was him trying to have people still on the tilde
wagon explain why they think he’s lying. Comments that cyan didn’t actually
give a tangible reason for voting him. Asks why Az thinks 82 was an interesting reaction. Quotes Xyre on J-effe and asks if he’s ever played with J-effe before. Comments to ZDS that his accusation against him was because of a simul post.
172- Notes that Cyan hasn’t actually presented any case against him, and that he was
being sarcastic (which sparrow missed earlier)
212- Responds to Rafk and Cyan. Says he’s never been scum on MTS, only once off
site. Says he takes votes seriously and defends himself on every point, gets
sarcastic when there is nothing to defend against. Notes that Cyan has not
brought about any new accusations and that he is misusing the word “baseless”
Mentions other games where he’s acted this way, saying the games cyan brings up
were ones where he was never wagoned.
The first of the big wagons…Ande seems to defend people a bit too much than most people…it’s a bit weird. From the start he defends Tilde, even pre-claim. And in 156, the “overdefensive” post features him defending J-effe to Xyre. Why? That doesn’t seem to make sense to me.
However, I don’t see the overdefensiveness in 156 that Cyan claims to see, and the case against him originally was mainly based on feelings, which is tough to defend..no?
J-effe
32-Random Votes Niv, jokingly for spelling.
48-Votes Tilde
87-Unvotes, voting Azrael. Reasons that his proposition (#2) is fishing, but then
again says he’s not for or against mass claiming.
121- Says he said what he said. Doesn’t “bother” (?) if the game is less enjoyable for the
others. His claim will make this clear, if that path is chosen.
Says he doesn’t rely on patterns, mainly on feelings and that they never mislead him.
133/134- Just responds “Yep” to DYH. Tells Az he’ll see soon enough and he’ll claim
on Day 1 for sure.
180- Says ZDS is silly for calling J-effe too aggressive. Says he welcomes any attention
ZDS brings to him, but will not answer any questions about claiming. Says ZDS
should use his skills on people who are actually scummy.
I happen to agree with Az here….J-effe rings like someone preparing a neutral claim. Whether I agree with the claim or not depends on what it is, but clearly something’s off here… Of note, in the last 6 days (1 hour) of Day 1, we need to make sure he claims….his insistence of claiming in the first day is the only thing preventing a wagon on him and he should not get away with it. Until then, not worth pursuing.
The next post contains my pbpas of note on those who are scummy/not totally on town's radar. It should be up in 2 minutes.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Azrael
61- Gives his two propositions: 1. that we vig/lynch all lurkers due to time constraints.
2. That we mass claim on day 1.
80-Notes Tilde’s claim as “unexpected.”
85- Re: Ande’s 82, says “I bet you’d like to know that Osama”.
117- Quoting Jeffe’s 87, votes Jeffe. Says Ande’s reason for asking for unvotes an
Interesting reaction. Asks Phayt if he came here because of invite.
122- Accuses J-effe of being neutral.
138- Notes that it is possible to establish the normal number of kills even with daykills.
Unvotes Jeffe, noting his willingness to claim later, and votes andelijah.
140- Re Vamp’s 139, asks if we need to lynch him (presumably for lurking?)
182- Raises an Eyebrow at vamp’s 142, shrugs off zaz’s vote against him, tells ZDS to
think about it (i think in regards to J-effe?) Says he likes his vote in regards to andelijah’s 172, and seems to have bad thoughts for Foo’s 175
184/5-Clarifies his comment about foo’s 175 was either agreement or disagreement over
his view of aurora. Asks Phayt if he was invited here for this game.
188- Makes the joke that him and rafk voting someone doesn’t make it a wagon.
205- Responds to Zasz with smilies and hi-fives Cyan’s 192.
208- Dislikes Xyre’s comments on Jerub’s post.
218- Jokes back to CP’s 217 saying if he’d had a lotus for each time he was accused.
227- Continues to joke.
Az’s playstyle most compares in this game (believe it or not) to Chamber’s playstyle. He brings up people and posts, and doesn’t give a clear opinion on them…this is meant to draw people into looking these guys over and possibly supplementing/arguing with Az’s thoughts. It’s hard to tell whether this is townie or scummy, he does it in every game regardless, and imo, I’d come back to az after we know whether the people he brings up are town or scum. This is of course, assuming Azrael doesn’t get killed in the meantime.
--------------------------------------------
Now for the more questionable players.
FooFish
11- Random Vote Phayt
104- Postulates that we might not even have scum with kills due to unique nature of the game.
158- Notes that vigs don’t counterclaim, they shoot the imposter.
166- Wonders why we’re still talking about Tilde’s claim when he’s dead if he’s lying.
175- Says doesn’t see the ande case, and that AS is fearmongering. Votes Aurora.
183- Wonders what az is referring to in the previous post (with the swamp symbol)
193- Re: Cyan’s 192, says that Ande has defended the case on him, FoSes him saying
that he’s trying to suppress people speaking out against baseless cases.
213- Re: Cyan, defines baseless. Argues cyan is being contradictory by saying “didn’t a
dequately defend” and “overdefended” at the same time. Says he’d rather start
looking at actual cases like ZDS.
215- Asks why Netfinity says that 213 gave townie vibes.
104 seemed rather townie to me (why would a scum ask that? Wifom I know, but it seemed genuine.) Still the dismissal of Tilde in 166 is a bit stupid, and the vote of AS is weak (there is a case there, but fearmongering? Really?). Responds against Cyan, saying he’d rather look into ZDS, but does not remove his vote from AS or even mention AS? Why? The Netfinity thing looks like scum banter between two players (particularly when a newb scum (Net?) clings to another scum for no reason), though I hate to associate players as scum this early.
Netfinity
12-Random Vote Niv
25-Calls Phayt’s 22 a little emotional
179- Says the ande case holds no water, votes phayt for his 2nd post as an overreaction.
Says Phayt went after AS when there are also other lurkers
214- Says Hawkeye posted earlier in another thread and that he must be lurking. Says
Foo gives him townie vibes.
216- Says the town vibes were “just a hunch.”
Hasn’t posted much, but more or less agrees with Foofish at every point on Ande (a notable fact due to 214). Phayt comments are really weak, as is the vote for him; by that point a lot had happened, yet still after Phayt? No other comments? Why not? Raises suspicion on Hawkeye un-necessarily (His only strike is lurking, we know this, if he doesn’t show up he’ll be prodded….why the co1mment now?) The townie vibe comment is enormously scummy (as stated in the foofish part) and seems like newb scum clinging to other scum.
The next two on my scum list are interesting, as no one's brought em up yet....
Carrion Pigeons
18-Random Votes GT, lectures Phayt about bad “First Post” posts
29-Disagrees with Cyan about “first vote” equaling a random vote. Though he says
(jokingly?) that everyone basically rolls their eyes at random votes anyhow
33- Replies to Phayt’s 22 saying that he isn’t elitist toward MS and that Phayt’s post
WAS spam
46- Notes Tilde’s logic doesn’t make sense unless he knows information that a townie
wouldn’t know. Says there’s good reason for suspicion on Tilde.
51- Notes that it’s a lot of votes on Tilde (6)
55- Notes the irony in Niv saying Tilde isn’t making sense. Says that either there’s a lot
of townies anxious to get out of random voting or that there’s nontown players trying to get a bandwagon rolling. Implicates Niv and Jerubbaal.
67- Disagrees with Az’s Prop 1, says Prop 2 is fine, but that he doubts it will do anything.
91- Responds snidely to loran over his question about Tilde’s season.
98- Just laughs at loran. (For the record, you critique Phayt on spam and then you post
this? So “First Post” is worse than being an ass? )
112- Can’t see the mafia benefit in Tilde answering Xyre.
126- Jokes that DYH’s explanation would let tilde vig every 10 minutes.
151- Unvotes and Votes ZDS for FOSing az then agreeing with him on most likely scum
195- Notes it’d be interesting if we get details about non-canon characters in daily blurbs,
and that he likes his vote.
217- Re Netfinity’s hunch, says there’s a lot in this game. Jokingly says he has a hunch
Az is scum. (I think its jokingly)
222- Continues to joke with Az about the black lotus.
Despite his being annoying to me (I don’t think that’s intended to provoke a reaction so it’s a nontell) his 46, 51, and 55 are pretty bad for me imo. 67 also seems almost like the reaction of a scum knowing that Prop 2 is harmless.
The ZDS vote to me doesn’t seem appropriate to me…its too obvious after that post (more on whether I think its justified later). It just seems really easy for a player to vote another after they FOS 3 players and vote another.
The joking late on despite all this seems a bit scummy to me, especially him missing out on the scummyness of Netfinity and Foofish’s hunch interaction. With all this going on, he’s spending time ignoring this or letting DYH take the lead on ZDS and joking with Az…that doesn’t seem townie to me.
And finally:
Cyan
20-Says random voting stage is random spam, except for on MTGNews
100-Calls Tilde’s claim the classic claim of a serial killer.
105- says he doesn’t believe tilde, but that that should be resolved soon enough. Votes
Andelijah for not coming across as “sincere” (in response to 89? 82?)
129- Is confident the vig can kill once per 3 hours.
132- Agrees with Raf re DYH’s answering being a town tell.
141-Says he agrees with Az’ vote placement.
144-Re: Zaz thinks that its unlikely that Az is scum and that he’s not hard to read, just
hard to pin a case on him, and thus he gets NKed a lot.
160- Says the defensiveness of Ande’s 156 makes him confident that cyan is looking in
the right place.
192- says that anyone who doesn’t see the over defensiveness of Ande is terrible.
194- Re: Foo, says that a case is not baseless when multiple people agree with it. Says
Foo is wrong and that the twon wont let someone get lynched on a baseless case.
196- Says Az is generally not serious unless its about voting someone. Doesn’t get why
Xyre keeps goig on about loran. Agrees with CP’s sentiments but thinks Ande’s
better than ZDS as a wagon.
204- Asks Jerub: who he’s talking about in 202. Tells loran to go see if Ande is playing
anything like he did as town.
209- Wonders why Xyre thinks Jerub would be desperate to get Ande lynched on day1.
228- Agrees with ZDS about the TFF-Netfinity thing. Says TFF asking netfinity why he feels that way makes it more obvious. Unvotes Ande, Votes TFF.
His feelings on Ande are interesting…its hard to tell if Cyan’s being normal Cyan or scum Cyan, particularly with the comments of 192-196. Still, 204 to me seems like scumCyan to me as he changes his approach with me to get me onto Ande’s case. (It seems as if he is tailoring his comments to manipulate people to vote ande..for the less experienced/less headstrong players he's bullying, but for me he suggests i look up games and compare.)
Then he votes foo there suddenly giving up on Ande without even a comment, which is another scum Cyan trait (When scum, Cyan often starts focused on a player, but will subtly “give in” to other players if they try to direct him elsewhere).
The problem with the feeling is that the TFF/Netfinity reaction seems scummy, but that wouldn’t preclude scum Cyan from getting on the wagon to try and distance himself from them, so it doesn’t shake me feeling that this is scumCyan.
To sum up, My top 4 scum list would be:
1. Cyan
2/3. Foofish and Netfinity
4. Carrion Pigeons
Vote Cyan
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
@loran - 38 was directed at what was going on with Phayt, I don't believe I saw the idiotic Tilde stuff until after I posted. So yes, simul. The response to Tilde comes about three minutes later.
Anywho, I almost always hate pbpa's, because they're so easy to distort, but I think loran's actually done a pretty reasonable job of keeping it free of editorial distortion. I haven't decided if it's a useful summary yet, but at least it's an accurate summary.
CP is actually an interesting avenue to look down. He went after Phayt for being spammy, but he's been pretty spammy himself lately, after Az had established the precedence. There's some inconsistency going on here.
I'm not seeing the case on Foo. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure what the case on Foo is. ZDS accuses him of defending a dodgy townie to get town points (this is a non-argument) and easy wagoning (which holds some water, but not much). I find this kinda funny, because ZDS has been bouncing about between people a lot, looking for something to stick, yet he's accusing Foo of basically the same thing. I'm quite surprised that the wagon has taken off so quickly on so little basis.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Well, I already posted my feelings on AS, and he didn't make another post, so there wasn't much with which to follow up.
As for Cyan (and less so Netfinity), I agree with your read. I haven't liked the way Cyan was pushing the ande case, and his vote on me looks pretty bad too; the only reason I can see for him voting me is because I've been busy poking massive holes in his arguments. Netfinity's random assignment of townie points seemed odd, but his explanation obviously didn't give me much one way or the other.
Thanks for the quick answer...that's what i thought, but I had to ask.
The case on Foo is as follows: Votes Aurora for weak reasoning, right after someone else does so. Meanwhile, he keeps his vote where it is and proceeds later on in to talk about going onto ZDS out of the blue (Still voting AS, whered that go?) And his interaction with Netfinity is what's brought it up all of the sudden...it looks like Netfinity is cozying up to Foofish, and he makes a post as if trying to distance himself ("Oh, and where do these townie feelings come from about me?"). It just doesn't seem genuine imo...less grateful townie and more "Get Away from Me, You fool!".
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Carrion's interactions with Tilde were curious, definitely. After that I didn't spot anything.
Netfinity could very well be a good read. He was flying under my radar.
Foofish has some logic issues popping up. Not sure if they're malevolent or not, yet, but I tend to think they're benign so far.
I don't consider any of the pieces of evidence you cited against Cyan as genuine tells. I think you're jumping at shadows and ignoring context.
----
As for my reasoning on Andelijah, my argument is in complete conformity with Cyan's, though I'll try to carry it more persuasively. The contempt in Ande's responses is atypical in his town mentality, but in scum with egos, sarcasm and dismissal is a grade A piece of evidence. Especially if you're not practiced in concealing it. We're not simply in the business to look for scummy actions, the area I used to concentrate on as an analyst. We're also here to analyze attitudes. It was incredible how much that shift of focus onto certain specific town vs. scum attitudes has propelled the accuracy of my reads over the past few months. I feel like a stick figure who just discovered the third dimension.
Point is, it's a tool we shouldn't ignore because it seems to be soft evidence.
Unless we find another underlying cause, I'm inclined to believe that the root symptom of Ande's dismissal and contempt and antagonism is his alignment. Wouldn't stake my life on it yet, but it's a solid rock to peek under.
Other than that, your case is basically just you noticing things you don't expect and then calling them scummy.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
And seriously, FooFish, try to make some sense. You think that I'm OMGUS voting you in response to you defending Andelijah. How does this make sense? What would this even accomplish? Let's say things go my way, and you get run up and lynched and..what? Turn up town? That would only make your stance look MORE valid, and would mean that I went out of my way to help lynch you in an effort to make myself look LESS credible? I mean seriously.
Of course, if you are scum, then the post that you just made makes perfect sense, because you know that, if you are lynched and come up as scum, it will be damaging to Andelijah. So yeah. Thanks for admitting to being scum.
And honestly. When someone says 'I think that this person is town', there is absolutely no way whatsoever that the person they said this about responding to them with 'Why' is anything but a completely scum reaction. I mean seriously. It honestly made me laugh when I saw that, it's absurd.
I didn't think I had done anything specifically "townish" there, so I was curious about his odd handing out of townie points. There didn't seem to be any cause or point to his comment, so I was trying to figure out why.
In reailty, the one that is guilty of OMGUS here is you. I voted you for something that I felt was scummy on your part, and you immediately stepped into me and attacked me more heavily.
And really, you completely gave yourself away with your response to Netfinity. When you're town and someone else says they think you're town, it is simply unthinkable that you would question them on this. But this makes plenty of sense when you're scum, and you want other people to perceive you as town.
Lastly, trying to push off a valid case against you as OMGUS is just one more scummy action on your part.
@ZDS(I think): I disagree, I think that TFF and Andelijah are both scum. But..one at a time, eh.
To me, this signals that cp is non-canon.
In fact, I'm just going to reveal some info to the town - I'm non-canon. mass nameclaiming isn't going to work.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Um, you said you agreed with the case against him and added a superficial reason to strengthen it. That's an attack.
Your reaction to my passing mention is not entirely unexpected, but the way you tried to semantic out of being seen as attacking ZDS was... sensitive?
reed: I don't think that's necessary.
As for Loran's giant PBPAs - it is too early in the morning to read all that, I'll get to it at work tomorrow. One thing did strike me, though:
@CP: I know we've seen loran do this before. Do you recall what game(s) it was? I wanted to validate your behavioral comment about him.
Oh, and ZDS still bothers me with his ridiculously flippant attitude. I need to check and see if that's par for the course for him as scum. Has he been scum more recently than L5R?
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Loran is also acting how he usually does as town, honestly. As is CP. And DYH. And Azrael.
And I'm not really sure about anyone else. Well, except to say that I'm sure that TFF And Andelijah are acting like scum.
Thanks in advance.
Ooh, ooh, i can answer i can answer that! I can be like DYH here....I'll give you a hint though DYH and CP...I've done this type of analysis once, and I was town, so don't waste your time looking to try and back up that statement.
And if you really are stupid and still want to look, it's in a mini game on the first page of the mafia forum. That ought-to narrow it down.
(Also @CP, you being annoying to me with DYH i was treating as a null-tell in my analysis, though i was curious how posts like that are any better than the "FIRST POST" post that you slammed phayt for in the beginning. Do enlighten me on how a LOL post is any better.)
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Agreed on the Canon-Non-Canon claim being non-helpful. While i doubt that ability distribution is skewed toward one group or another (see Tilde and his claim), certain characters (Jack Bauer anyone?) are likely to be easily confirmable from the former group, so lets not do it.
@Az, my vote on Cyan (as well as my case) is not one for usual generic tells...i find Cyan gives those off in spades as both town and scum, and thus it's hard to tell the difference. But his actions in this game appear to me to be more like the Scum-Cyan, as far as i can tell, than town Cyan is. Town Cyan is more focussed on a single player (wouldnt back off ande to vote foofish right there unless a heavy wagon developed and foo became extraordinarily scummy), treats everyone who disagrees like idiots, and constantly repeats the same thing. This does not read like that, thus my vote.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
though one more question comes up now:
Zasz:
Where's this coming from? Thanks.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Rurouni Kenshin Mafia is a great example of this. I abandoned my case against Wuffles when a scummier target(Bateleur) came along.
Besides, what you're basically saying is 'I find fault with Cyan because he is acting like town, when usually I perceive him as acting like scum when he is town'. People do learn as they go along, and besides, it's pretty funny that you're like, reverse metagaming me.
You abandoned your case against wuffles in that case because bateleur was enormously bad with his claim vs the mass-claim. Completely different than here....that game was broken by a mass-claim, and you were able to see that and move to the scum caught by the mass-claim.
While i think foofish is scummy here, its not even close to the level bateleur was.
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@AS, 91 and 98 to me are CP claiming non-canon, not 67.....67 could be either way. Which is why he's 4th on my list....because while everything else makes me think scum, i don't think CP would mock me for wondering why Tilde isn't canon if CP was scum (and im sure the scum know that some are canon and some are noncanon) but he might if he was noncanon and didnt realize the presence of actually canon characters in the game...
Also , @Cyan, ignoring J-effe is the play right now...he's acting all survivor-ish, and he will claim later today, count on it.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
That's where I think you have to take an eye to context. It's early on day one. Nobody's reads are that solid yet. Switching around is to be expected.
So now, when you lynch me and I come up town, you can make yourself look better by refering back to this argument on how your actions don't make any sense as scum. Not bad. A little too WIFOM for my taste, but a good effort.
Yeah, about that, I'm pretty sure I was suspicious of you first. I FOSed you for your odd handling of the ande case, and then you counterattacked me and in a fairly suspicious way. So, yes, your second suspicious attack has made me even more suspicious of you.
So, you're saying that I was trying to get people to perceive me as town... by doing something that is unthinkable as town? That doesn't make any sense.
Now, if only we had an explanation that made sense... I know! How about the truth? -I tend to ask people questions when I see unusual activity; Net's random assignment of townie points looked odd, therefore, I questioned him on it (my main thoughts being that he might be scum and I had said something in that post which helped him).
-BTW, I'm done defending this case.
The point is that you said that I won't move off of a scummy suspect unless there is a major wagon on someone else, and I have proven that this is not true. I moved from a wagon with more people(Wuffles) to a wagon with nobody(Bateleur) on it, and it took me considerable effort to get Bateleur lynched at that. And obviously, I was town. So clearly, your assessment is inaccurate.
@TFF:
Feel free to find an example of me, as town or scum or anything in between, using that argument to defend myself. Or, ask anyone if they remember me having done so. I post plenty, it can't be hard. BTW, it's not going to happen. Aside from that, you're not even defending yourself or your actions. You're just trying to discredit me, and failing beautifully.
An FoS means a fat lot of nothing, except that you're scum trying to throw suspicion on a townie but wanting to test the waters first. And yes, I did attack you, but no, it was not in a 'suspicious way'. Or if it was, maybe you can explain how. The points that I attacked you on are valid, and multiple people have agreed with them. For that matter, ZDS attacked you for them FIRST. Again, you are clearly not debating the points that you are being attacked for, you are just trying to strawman the fact that I am attacking you at all. Thoroughly scummy.
Yes, essentially this means that you, as scum, tried too hard and got caught. It happens. Are you saying that scum never do anything under the guise of trying to promote themselves as being town? Also, are you really, *really* trying to assert that someone reading you as town is 'unusual'? Is this a confession to being scum? I don't see what else it could be. Thinking that he's scum because he said that he read you as scum is, literally, mindboggling nonsensical.
Ahh, the pen-ultimate scumtell. You say what you want, realizing that your answers are woefully inadequate, then declare yourself quit of the case so that you don't look worse if you 'neglect' to defend yourself further.
This is pretty awesome, I haven't seen a scum as obvious as you in..sometime now.
The first part of that should be directed at Loran.
We're seeing a lot of errors in argumentation, but I'm sensing a good bit of genuine townie frustration as well.
I don't think he's faking it. Right now I read him as town.
The emotion, the frustration and self-righteousness, is genuine.
There is no scum motivator for the self-righteousness.
He's not doing the town any favors by his hostility and refusal to reply further, but I think the motivations for those are simply a gut-reaction to being attacked.
Maybe you can explain why you see it how you do, I see you as 'most likely to be town #1' right now.
Two things, 1. If you can't understand why az became serious all of a sudden....really? He became serious because he had more things to say than satisfaction/dissatisfaction and would like to say them than try and point them out to other players. It's actually a town-tell from az (when he's scum imo he's more likely to try and act crazy until he's homing in on a person and trying to get them lynched.)
2. Jerub's greatest failing has been being the 3rd vote 3 times (me randomly, Tilde, and ZDS). And if you think that the first two are examples of a scum trend, you must seriously be joking.
For the record, I happen to agree with Cyan Re Foo's "I'm done defending myself." I disagree with Cyan's third point that foo responded to (If someone calls me townie randomly, im rather curious to know why for my own knowledge, though i might be biassed since ive been trying to figure how to act that way as scum for a while now)
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@Cyan and For the record Everyone Else, Calling someone overdefensive is a really really weak argument. So is saying someone didnt adequately answer a comment. Explain WHY please. I happen to agree with you on Foo, but this is starting to bother me. Seeming Overdefensive is not always a scum tell. It's when someone in their defense starts being inconsistant and scummy that it becomes so (That's my tell, not being overdefensive, though its often mischaracterized as such ).
If you're going to make an accusation at somebody, they have to be able to answer it. Unlike the case on ande, where.....it seemed a bit impossible.
2 more questions to people.
Foofish: Explain the cases on AuroraSparrow and ZDS, and any other players you may be fishy of at this time. If you no longer agree that those previous 2 are scummy, please explain why.
and:
Netfinity: Can you articulate where your hunch seemed to come from about Foofish, and why you felt the need to talk about it there. Also, please explain the Phayt case you are currently on.
Unvote for now. Az is right in one thing, I probably need more actions/reactions from Cyan to tell if my read is correct, and the questions i pose to these two are more pressing atm.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
He's oozing confidence in this post.
A scum would generally try to say something like this as a scare tactic, as intimidation. Here, he's saying it a smug sense of superiority: "not bad", "good effort".
Referring back to a mindset he can clearly recall, with confidence in his viewpoint underscored by italics.
A weak rhetorical point, but it demonstrates the one-sidedness of his perspective of reflecting on himself as town.
Again, he's arguing for a story he really, really seems to be convinced of, and he's doing it with anger at being questioned for something that he feels his explanation for: "the truth", is perfectly suited to explain.
Townie vibes all over the place there, even amidst the errors in logic.