I'm fine w/ going along with Azrael's plan. Anyone that A)picks up a hat when the intent is for Azrael to pick them up just gets lynched. Or B)if Azrael gets all of the hats and decides not to go along with his own plan, he gets lynched.
People seem to forget that the town has the ultimate power of every player..the lynch.
Then CM's ability is obviously relevant, since we have reason to suspect that anyone is scum. QED
2nd clause? PPE: Yeah, but I think that's extremely weak, since it's only a plausible alternative, not something we have any reason to believe in.
@ Cyan-Thanks. I'll hold off from nabbing it until the plan is approved, though.
Just realized one minor hitch in my plan, though. I will not be able to share info with the confirmed townie in as short an amount of time as I had thought. It would take one additional night before we can pull off the maneuver with doc protection in place for them. I can identify the cleared townie at any time, I just can't share info privately with them without having a vulnerable link.
There are other ways we can corroborate whether or not I'm lying about any of the information, though, simply by folks calling out whether items' abilities have been omitted.
I'm fine w/ going along with Azrael's plan. Anyone that A)picks up a hat when the intent is for Azrael to pick them up just gets lynched. Or B)if Azrael gets all of the hats and decides not to go along with his own plan, he gets lynched.
People seem to forget that the town has the ultimate power of every player..the lynch.
We give all the hats to Azrael. He catalogs them and lets us know all of the abilities, and then decides who's a good little townie and who's scum and gives out some hats back. Where in this scenario are we going to know if he's scum or not? If he's scum, then he has the entire town under his control and we go an entire night without using any abilities. Basically, my point is that Azrael following his plan does not imply that he's town.
Even if we are able to somehow figure out that Azrael is scum from all of this, it would probably still be worth it for him to sacrifice himself so the mafia can learn every hat and their abilities. The scum would know exactly who to kill, and what hats they need to deal with, for the rest of the game.
If Azrael is town, then this might be a decent plan. If he's scum, then it puts us in quite bad shape. I'm very nervous about trusting every ability in the game to someone who's alignment is completely unknown.
Worst-case scenario, we have a mass-claim with all information made publicly available for all parties.
Best-case scenario, we have a mass-claim where the scum have no idea where any of our power roles are located, and a huge amount of additional information on their capabilities and probable location.
Just realized one minor hitch in my plan, though. I will not be able to share info with the confirmed townie in as short an amount of time as I had thought. It would take one additional night before we can pull off the maneuver with doc protection in place for them. I can identify the cleared townie at any time, I just can't share info privately with them without having a vulnerable link.
So we're now going 2 nights with you holding all of the hats?
There are other ways we can corroborate whether or not I'm lying about any of the information, though, simply by folks calling out whether items' abilities have been omitted.
I'm not worried about you lying about the hats. I'm just suggesting that you telling the truth about the hats doesn't mean you're town.
If I'm scum, it means I managed to get the whole town to mass-claim. It might not be ideal, but it's not a death-blow, since it would also force the scum to either lie, or to also expose their true abilities to the town.
I don't think there's a huge downside to the plan. And if we can actually pull it off, we gain a gigantic advantage over them. All the role information in the game in townie hands by day two, without the scum being able to locate our power roles, and with most of the town gaining access to their superpowers.
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<Limited Clan>
2. The scum have the magical ability to pass hats to one another privately and at will.
Oh come now. Between the words "magical" and "at will" that makes it sound like I was suggesting they could teleport them around whenever they wanted and even during the day. Obviously that would be bizarre and likely overpowered.
I was more thinking along the lines that they could exchange them among themselves once, presumably prior to ability use at night. The fact that you're attempting to dismiss this not inconsiderable possibility by using fanciful language doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
So we're now going 2 nights with you holding all of the hats?
Nah, I can drop all the hats tomorrow. I just can't share the identities of the hats and match them with the abilities and then give that info to the confirmed townie so he can say that the info is on the level, until one or two more days pass.
Quote from Goatrevolt »
I'm not worried about you lying about the hats. I'm just suggesting that you telling the truth about the hats doesn't mean you're town.
Oh, certainly. Although I think there will be byproduct information produced by the plan which should give some insights to why it's most plausible to consider me as town.
Previous post corrected to replace the beret, which did not at any point disappear. Oops.
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<Limited Clan>
Worst-case scenario, we have a mass-claim with all information made publicly available for all parties.
I can think of plenty of cases worse than that, given that all the hats will be in the hands of someone who is potentially scum (or even neutral).
Even the best-case is not really a mass-claim, since the info isn't public. And once you start handing out hats, scum can see who's picking them up and already get an idea of who has what power, depending on the extent of coordination.
I don't really want to pick up either of those hats then, please disregard that last 'take hat' from me.
I think that people are just being chicken, frankly. Sometimes, a good plan comes your way and you just have to run with it. I really don't see any catastrophic results here, and any scummy action as a result of this plan will be woefully apparent.
Oh come now. Between the words "magical" and "at will" that makes it sound like I was suggesting they could teleport them around whenever they wanted and even during the day. Obviously that would be bizarre and likely overpowered.
I was more thinking along the lines that they could exchange them among themselves once, presumably prior to ability use at night. The fact that you're attempting to dismiss this not inconsiderable possibility by using fanciful language doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
It's also perfectly plausible that I'm a pink unicorn who uses my horn to destroy all the hats in the game, and that's why I'm claiming this.
But we have no reason to consider that possibility as being in effect, no reason to take it into our calculations and allow it to dissuade us from taking a course of action that could crack the game open.
At any rate, in regards to the confidence issue, I have/had the capability of identifying a confirmed townie at the very start of the game. The chances of a scum having that capability are virtually nil. I'm not pulling fast one this time.
If I'm scum, it means I managed to get the whole town to mass-claim. It might not be ideal, but it's not a death-blow, since it would also force the scum to either lie, or to also expose their true abilities to the town.
If you're scum, who knows how long it may take us to figure it out. There might be too much damage done by that point.
I don't think there's a huge downside to the plan. And if we can actually pull it off, we gain a gigantic advantage over them. All the role information in the game in townie hands by day two, without the scum being able to locate our power roles, and with most of the town gaining access to their superpowers.
That is sweet, sweet deal.
If all works out as you suggest, then you're right, we're in great shape. How are you going to determine who is a townie and thus gets their hat, and who is scum and shouldn't get a hat?
Just as a quick rules note: "Take Hat" wouldn't have done anything anyway since it does not name a hat. (I realise it happens to be unambiguous, but less clear-cut cases are possible and I'd much rather people just said what they meant in the first place.)
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<Limited Clan>
I can think of plenty of cases worse than that, given that all the hats will be in the hands of someone who is potentially scum (or even neutral).
Even the best-case is not really a mass-claim, since the info isn't public. And once you start handing out hats, scum can see who's picking them up and already get an idea of who has what power, depending on the extent of coordination.
It's better than public. It's selectively public. That's what gives us the edge.
As for doubts about my alignment, see previous post.
I think that people are just being chicken, frankly. Sometimes, a good plan comes your way and you just have to run with it.
Yes. Debating the merits of a game-altering plan before enacting it is a sure sign of cowardice.
Sometimes a good plan comes your way and you have to run with it. Sometimes a bad plan comes your way and you have to step on its throat. It's not like we're in any rush to debate whether this plan is good or bad.
If all works out as you suggest, then you're right, we're in great shape. How are you going to determine who is a townie and thus gets their hat, and who is scum and shouldn't get a hat?
Once I reveal the list of abilities to the town, we can deliberate as a group and try to figure it out.
Also, if there's doubts about my capability to identify a confirmed townie, I have someone who can vouch for that as well, if necessary.
So if I were lying, the town would net two scum off of this.
It's better than public. It's selectively public. That's what gives us the edge.
It's selectively public at the hands of one player. I wouldn't say that's a very strong edge, since it's dependent on the town being able to verify that player's alignment to a very high degree.
It's selectively public at the hands of one player. I wouldn't say that's a very strong edge, since it's dependent on the town being able to verify that player's alignment to a very high degree.
That player can vouch for your capability? Or vouch for your townie-ness? Because they're not the same thing.
I have a player who can vouch that I've been able to identify a player who is guaranteed to be a confirmable townie since the start of the game.
A scum player would not at all be likely to begin the game with the ability to identify and kill a confirmed townie.
It's also perfectly plausible that I'm a pink unicorn who uses my horn to destroy all the hats in the game, and that's why I'm claiming this.
No, it's not. Nor am I particularly swayed by hyperbole.
Azrael, please reiterate for me (in case I have misunderstood you) what the ideal scenario is for this plan. It starts with every dropping all their hats and you picking all of them up, yes? And then tonight, you learn the abilities granted by every hat in the game. What happens then, exactly? What do you do with the hats, and what do you do with the information?
Quote from Cyan »
@Arimnaes:
Have you ever seen Azrael propose a bad plan? Think about that for awhile. This isn't Puzzle that we're talking about.
Even if I said "no", and I really couldn't say that categorically without rereading all of Azrael's games, that wouldn't be a logically sound reason to support all of Azrael's plans in the present and future. Each plan must be examined on its own merits.
Quote from Cyan »
If Azrael can be confirmed as town, and since he says he can, we have no reason not to believe him, then we should go along with him.
If Azrael can be confirmed as town it would be a big strike in favor of this plan, certainly. It would still not mean we should automatically obey him, however. It would just mean he genuinely thinks this plan is in the town's best interest.
Ged stares at GrakthisIsAGod menacingly for a time before flipping him a pair of birds and motioning for him to drop the crown.
Vote GrakthisIsAGod
Ged listens to the conversation regarding Az's plan and nods thoughtfully.
Quote from Cyan »
I'm fine w/ going along with Azrael's plan. Anyone that A)picks up a hat when the intent is for Azrael to pick them up just gets lynched. Or B)if Azrael gets all of the hats and decides not to go along with his own plan, he gets lynched.
No, it's not. Nor am I particularly swayed by hyperbole.
Azrael, please reiterate for me (in case I have misunderstood you) what the ideal scenario is for this plan. It starts with every dropping all their hats and you picking all of them up, yes? And then tonight, you learn the abilities granted by every hat in the game. What happens then, exactly? What do you do with the hats, and what do you do with the information?
I learn the abilities granted by every hat in the game, AND I learn where each of those abilities was located at the start of the game. Then I get to share that info.
That does a number things.
One, it allows us to immediately clear a number of players who possess hats that the scum would not be likely to start with.
Two, it helps narrows the suspect range to folks who had hats that the scum would be likely to start with.
Three, it prevents the scum from false-claiming their abilities, and from concocting false stories to explain away inconsistencies.
Four, it allows us to control access to the townie hats to their proper owners, and restrict access to scum hats. Conceivably we can lock the scum out of attaining their ideal powers.
Five, it allows us to distribute our own superpowers immediately, maximizing the effectiveness of our abilities throughout the game, and eliminating the ability of the mafia to be able to pinpoint our power roles.
Six, if we ever wish to lynch someone who we know to be in possession of a power role, we can have that player drop their hat without revealing publically what precisely it was, which again limits the mafia's targeting information. We never ever have to make public the abilities of any of the hats, if we don't want to. Our claim info can stay in townie hands only, since the claim itself will also be likely to generate a number of other cleared townies to share this info with.
The advantages of all this to the town are staggering.
I have a player who can vouch that I've been able to identify a player who is guaranteed to be a confirmable townie since the start of the game.
A scum player would not at all be likely to begin the game with the ability to identify and kill a confirmed townie.
This is getting pretty confusing. Bateleur was right in saying this was a thinky game. So, someone can confirm that you know who a confirmable townie is?
And you're right, the ability to identify and kill a confirmed townie is clearly not a role the scum would start with.
I'm still in favor of waiting until tomorrow, have you prove that you're town with the confirmed townie business, and then giving you all of our hats then. At that point, you can just use a protective hat, and protect whoever you need to keep alive to prove you're telling the truth.
Worst-case scenario, we have a mass-claim with all information made publicly available for all parties.
Actually, worst-case scenario is that you get all the hats and likely fulfill your WC as a neutral. you win but now it's a race to see who can grab the important hats. If the mafia get thier hands on a power-role hat (for example, something like a police hat or a nurse's cap, or even a bowler derby), then we're in huge trouble.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that abilities are tied to hats and not the people wearing them. This will be a big point to remember.
DYH: Is the beret a fruitcake? you know what I mean.:cool:
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EBWODP: For the record, I do NOT have any knowledge of Az's alignment or win con, it just seems to fit what he's trying to do. Even before his plan came out I half-expected there to be someone who's Win Con was to have all the hats at one point.
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This is getting pretty confusing. Bateleur was right in saying this was a thinky game. So, someone can confirm that you know who a confirmable townie is?
Yes, precisely.
Quote from GoatRevolt »
I'm still in favor of waiting until tomorrow, have you prove that you're town with the confirmed townie business, and then giving you all of our hats then. At that point, you can just use a protective hat, and protect whoever you need to keep alive to prove you're telling the truth.
That's the thing. I could indicate their identity today if I needed to. We wouldn't need to wait, to do that.
What's stopping me from sharing, is that I'd need time to pass any doctor hat I received back to its owner, so that the confirmed townie would survive. So if we run the plan today, we get additional superpower activations and we can protect the confirmed townie sooner.
Actually, worst-case scenario is that you get all the hats and likely fulfill your WC as a neutral. you win but now it's a race to see who can grab the important hats. If the mafia get thier hands on a power-role hat (for example, something like a police hat or a nurse's cap, or even a bowler derby), then we're in huge trouble.
I certainly hope they wouldn't be anything that obvious; and I rather doubt they would be.
The other safeguard against that is that if someone picks up a hat that doesn't fit their true nature, they're going to get counter-claimed and exposed. So the mafia shouldn't be able to get away with stealing hats that aren't theirs.
That highlights one more advantage of running the plan ASAP, though. Once we start accumulating a body count, there's going to be an increasing number of players who won't be able to step up and claim whether a hat was supposed to be theirs. That won't be a huge issue tomorrow, but once we have 5-6 dead, it would be a bigger problem. The best possible time to implement the plan is day one.
EBWODP: For the record, I do NOT have any knowledge of Az's alignment or win con, it just seems to fit what he's trying to do. Even before his plan came out I half-expected there to be someone who's Win Con was to have all the hats at one point.
A few points. The win condition you're describing is probably nearly impossible to achieve. Two, if it did, it probably wouldn't be an exclusive win condition. Three, someone with that win condition wouldn't be likely to be able to find out the identity of a confirmed townie.
That's the thing. I could indicate their identity today if I needed to. We wouldn't need to wait, to do that.
What's stopping me from sharing, is that I'd need time to pass any doctor hat I received back to its owner, so that the confirmed townie would survive. So if we run the plan today, we get additional superpower activations and we can protect the confirmed townie sooner.
Why don't you just use the doctor hat to protect the confirmed townie?
problem is, you've got a WIFOM in doc-protecting. You can protect yourself and let the confirmed townie die, nullifying the advantage we gain. Or you can protect the townie, and then you die and we get no information. either way we're missing a pretty vital piece of information. If you can find a way to make sure neither of you die tonight, I may be convinced into doing this...
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DYH: again? sorry, but that's kind of funny that you got hit with it both here and over there. you must have been going crazy.
For anyone who doesn't get it, pick it up and you'll find out.
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problem is, you've got a WIFOM in doc-protecting. You can protect yourself and let the confirmed townie die, nullifying the advantage we gain. Or you can protect the townie, and then you die and we get no information. either way we're missing a pretty vital piece of information. If you can find a way to make sure neither of you die tonight, I may be convinced into doing this...
Yeah, no comment on this.
At any rate, there's no danger to the confirmed townie tonight, because no one knows who they are. There's no danger to the confirmed townie tomorrow, because the doc can back them up.
That highlights one more advantage of running the plan ASAP, though. Once we start accumulating a body count, there's going to be an increasing number of players who won't be able to step up and claim whether a hat was supposed to be theirs. That won't be a huge issue tomorrow, but once we have 5-6 dead, it would be a bigger problem. The best possible time to implement the plan is day one.
You don't think that it will be obvious who someone's true hat was by their role?
Also:
1&2) I doubt that all the scum have hats that give themselves away as scum hats, or that they can't have hats that it would seem unlikely for them to have.
3) Not seeing how this applies
4&5) We can try to lock scum out of getting their hats, but see number 1... also, any hats we gave back would be generally obvious who the town power roles are.
6)... um, what?
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
problem is, you've got a WIFOM in doc-protecting. You can protect yourself and let the confirmed townie die, nullifying the advantage we gain. Or you can protect the townie, and then you die and we get no information. either way we're missing a pretty vital piece of information. If you can find a way to make sure neither of you die tonight, I may be convinced into doing this...
If he doesn't name the confirmed townie today, they're not very likely to die at night, considering how many players there are in the game. And he said initially that the mafia kill wouldn't be a problem for him. If someone can verify Az has he has stated, then I actually think this plan could be worth pursuing.
I already have a probable hat usage plan in place for tonight. Can't use both.
I can think of a few reasons why a hat you use tonight would be more important than one that protects the confirmed townie. One of those reasons is pro-town, and the other reasons are most definitely not pro-town.
For those of you who are completely lost by DYH, Az and I ramblng about, we'll explain everything later if it's needed. For now, just know that you DON'T want the beret.
Az: I thought the doc was the confirmed townie...never mind then.
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I can think of a few reasons why a hat you use tonight would be more important than one that protects the confirmed townie. One of those reasons is pro-town, and the other reasons are most definitely not pro-town.
You don't think that it will be obvious who someone's true hat was by their role?
I'm pretty sure we don't want to explore that territory right now.
Quote from Suth »
Also:
1&2) I doubt that all the scum have hats that give themselves away as scum hats, or that they can't have hats that it would seem unlikely for them to have.
3) Not seeing how this applies
4&5) We can try to lock scum out of getting their hats, but see number 1... also, any hats we gave back would be generally obvious who the town power roles are.
6)... um, what?
1 & 2 (identifying scum and townies through abilities)- There aren't going to be any dead giveaways, but there will be good possibilities on both sides. And occasionally, I think we'll clear some folks altogether, especially once they claim their true hats.
Then, everyone in the know will be able to identify a number of the players who are townie because some players will have superpowers that only a townie could have. All of the normal abilities can probably function on scum players and be quite balanced, but the superpowers are a different story. For instance, the hat that gives vigilante superpowers is probably going to be a dead giveaway.
3. (preventing scum from false-claiming) They won't be able to claim abilities that aren't in the game. They won't be able to lie to hide incriminating evidence.
4&5- (locking scum out of their hats, controlling access to hats) See above.
6. We can minimize the role info that spills into the thread, so that the mafia are never able to force us into revealing the details of hat power roles through the lynch.
1. I'm scum.
2. The scum have the magical ability to pass hats to one another privately and at will.
Go ahead and pick it up, Azrael.
I'm fine w/ going along with Azrael's plan. Anyone that A)picks up a hat when the intent is for Azrael to pick them up just gets lynched. Or B)if Azrael gets all of the hats and decides not to go along with his own plan, he gets lynched.
People seem to forget that the town has the ultimate power of every player..the lynch.
Then CM's ability is obviously relevant, since we have reason to suspect that anyone is scum. QED
2nd clause? PPE: Yeah, but I think that's extremely weak, since it's only a plausible alternative, not something we have any reason to believe in.
@ Cyan-Thanks. I'll hold off from nabbing it until the plan is approved, though.
Just realized one minor hitch in my plan, though. I will not be able to share info with the confirmed townie in as short an amount of time as I had thought. It would take one additional night before we can pull off the maneuver with doc protection in place for them. I can identify the cleared townie at any time, I just can't share info privately with them without having a vulnerable link.
There are other ways we can corroborate whether or not I'm lying about any of the information, though, simply by folks calling out whether items' abilities have been omitted.
We give all the hats to Azrael. He catalogs them and lets us know all of the abilities, and then decides who's a good little townie and who's scum and gives out some hats back. Where in this scenario are we going to know if he's scum or not? If he's scum, then he has the entire town under his control and we go an entire night without using any abilities. Basically, my point is that Azrael following his plan does not imply that he's town.
Even if we are able to somehow figure out that Azrael is scum from all of this, it would probably still be worth it for him to sacrifice himself so the mafia can learn every hat and their abilities. The scum would know exactly who to kill, and what hats they need to deal with, for the rest of the game.
If Azrael is town, then this might be a decent plan. If he's scum, then it puts us in quite bad shape. I'm very nervous about trusting every ability in the game to someone who's alignment is completely unknown.
Best-case scenario, we have a mass-claim where the scum have no idea where any of our power roles are located, and a huge amount of additional information on their capabilities and probable location.
So we're now going 2 nights with you holding all of the hats?
I'm not worried about you lying about the hats. I'm just suggesting that you telling the truth about the hats doesn't mean you're town.
If I'm scum, it means I managed to get the whole town to mass-claim. It might not be ideal, but it's not a death-blow, since it would also force the scum to either lie, or to also expose their true abilities to the town.
I don't think there's a huge downside to the plan. And if we can actually pull it off, we gain a gigantic advantage over them. All the role information in the game in townie hands by day two, without the scum being able to locate our power roles, and with most of the town gaining access to their superpowers.
That is sweet, sweet deal.
Hats on the Ground
Top Hat
Beret
Well fancy that. What a splendid hat!
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<Limited Clan>
I was more thinking along the lines that they could exchange them among themselves once, presumably prior to ability use at night. The fact that you're attempting to dismiss this not inconsiderable possibility by using fanciful language doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
stop Dropping Your Freaking Hats!
Nah, I can drop all the hats tomorrow. I just can't share the identities of the hats and match them with the abilities and then give that info to the confirmed townie so he can say that the info is on the level, until one or two more days pass.
Oh, certainly. Although I think there will be byproduct information produced by the plan which should give some insights to why it's most plausible to consider me as town.
Also, are the big bold letters really necessary? This isn't Melodrama 101.
Previous post corrected to replace the beret, which did not at any point disappear. Oops.
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<Limited Clan>
I can think of plenty of cases worse than that, given that all the hats will be in the hands of someone who is potentially scum (or even neutral).
Even the best-case is not really a mass-claim, since the info isn't public. And once you start handing out hats, scum can see who's picking them up and already get an idea of who has what power, depending on the extent of coordination.
I don't really want to pick up either of those hats then, please disregard that last 'take hat' from me.
I think that people are just being chicken, frankly. Sometimes, a good plan comes your way and you just have to run with it. I really don't see any catastrophic results here, and any scummy action as a result of this plan will be woefully apparent.
It's also perfectly plausible that I'm a pink unicorn who uses my horn to destroy all the hats in the game, and that's why I'm claiming this.
But we have no reason to consider that possibility as being in effect, no reason to take it into our calculations and allow it to dissuade us from taking a course of action that could crack the game open.
At any rate, in regards to the confidence issue, I have/had the capability of identifying a confirmed townie at the very start of the game. The chances of a scum having that capability are virtually nil. I'm not pulling fast one this time.
If you're scum, who knows how long it may take us to figure it out. There might be too much damage done by that point.
If all works out as you suggest, then you're right, we're in great shape. How are you going to determine who is a townie and thus gets their hat, and who is scum and shouldn't get a hat?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
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It's better than public. It's selectively public. That's what gives us the edge.
As for doubts about my alignment, see previous post.
Sometimes a good plan comes your way and you have to run with it. Sometimes a bad plan comes your way and you have to step on its throat. It's not like we're in any rush to debate whether this plan is good or bad.
Once I reveal the list of abilities to the town, we can deliberate as a group and try to figure it out.
Also, if there's doubts about my capability to identify a confirmed townie, I have someone who can vouch for that as well, if necessary.
So if I were lying, the town would net two scum off of this.
It's selectively public at the hands of one player. I wouldn't say that's a very strong edge, since it's dependent on the town being able to verify that player's alignment to a very high degree.
That player can vouch for your capability? Or vouch for your townie-ness? Because they're not the same thing.
Have you ever seen Azrael propose a bad plan? Think about that for awhile. This isn't Puzzle that we're talking about.
If Azrael can be confirmed as town, and since he says he can, we have no reason not to believe him, then we should go along with him.
I have a player who can vouch that I've been able to identify a player who is guaranteed to be a confirmable townie since the start of the game.
A scum player would not at all be likely to begin the game with the ability to identify and kill a confirmed townie.
Azrael, please reiterate for me (in case I have misunderstood you) what the ideal scenario is for this plan. It starts with every dropping all their hats and you picking all of them up, yes? And then tonight, you learn the abilities granted by every hat in the game. What happens then, exactly? What do you do with the hats, and what do you do with the information?
Even if I said "no", and I really couldn't say that categorically without rereading all of Azrael's games, that wouldn't be a logically sound reason to support all of Azrael's plans in the present and future. Each plan must be examined on its own merits.
If Azrael can be confirmed as town it would be a big strike in favor of this plan, certainly. It would still not mean we should automatically obey him, however. It would just mean he genuinely thinks this plan is in the town's best interest.
Vote GrakthisIsAGod
Ged listens to the conversation regarding Az's plan and nods thoughtfully.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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I learn the abilities granted by every hat in the game, AND I learn where each of those abilities was located at the start of the game. Then I get to share that info.
That does a number things.
One, it allows us to immediately clear a number of players who possess hats that the scum would not be likely to start with.
Two, it helps narrows the suspect range to folks who had hats that the scum would be likely to start with.
Three, it prevents the scum from false-claiming their abilities, and from concocting false stories to explain away inconsistencies.
Four, it allows us to control access to the townie hats to their proper owners, and restrict access to scum hats. Conceivably we can lock the scum out of attaining their ideal powers.
Five, it allows us to distribute our own superpowers immediately, maximizing the effectiveness of our abilities throughout the game, and eliminating the ability of the mafia to be able to pinpoint our power roles.
Six, if we ever wish to lynch someone who we know to be in possession of a power role, we can have that player drop their hat without revealing publically what precisely it was, which again limits the mafia's targeting information. We never ever have to make public the abilities of any of the hats, if we don't want to. Our claim info can stay in townie hands only, since the claim itself will also be likely to generate a number of other cleared townies to share this info with.
The advantages of all this to the town are staggering.
This is getting pretty confusing. Bateleur was right in saying this was a thinky game. So, someone can confirm that you know who a confirmable townie is?
And you're right, the ability to identify and kill a confirmed townie is clearly not a role the scum would start with.
I'm still in favor of waiting until tomorrow, have you prove that you're town with the confirmed townie business, and then giving you all of our hats then. At that point, you can just use a protective hat, and protect whoever you need to keep alive to prove you're telling the truth.
Actually, worst-case scenario is that you get all the hats and likely fulfill your WC as a neutral. you win but now it's a race to see who can grab the important hats. If the mafia get thier hands on a power-role hat (for example, something like a police hat or a nurse's cap, or even a bowler derby), then we're in huge trouble.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that abilities are tied to hats and not the people wearing them. This will be a big point to remember.
DYH: Is the beret a fruitcake? you know what I mean.:cool:
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Yes, precisely.
That's the thing. I could indicate their identity today if I needed to. We wouldn't need to wait, to do that.
What's stopping me from sharing, is that I'd need time to pass any doctor hat I received back to its owner, so that the confirmed townie would survive. So if we run the plan today, we get additional superpower activations and we can protect the confirmed townie sooner.
I certainly hope they wouldn't be anything that obvious; and I rather doubt they would be.
The other safeguard against that is that if someone picks up a hat that doesn't fit their true nature, they're going to get counter-claimed and exposed. So the mafia shouldn't be able to get away with stealing hats that aren't theirs.
That highlights one more advantage of running the plan ASAP, though. Once we start accumulating a body count, there's going to be an increasing number of players who won't be able to step up and claim whether a hat was supposed to be theirs. That won't be a huge issue tomorrow, but once we have 5-6 dead, it would be a bigger problem. The best possible time to implement the plan is day one.
A few points. The win condition you're describing is probably nearly impossible to achieve. Two, if it did, it probably wouldn't be an exclusive win condition. Three, someone with that win condition wouldn't be likely to be able to find out the identity of a confirmed townie.
Why don't you just use the doctor hat to protect the confirmed townie?
Vote: Arimnaes
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I already have a probable hat usage plan in place for tonight. Can't use both.
DYH: again? sorry, but that's kind of funny that you got hit with it both here and over there. you must have been going crazy.
For anyone who doesn't get it, pick it up and you'll find out.
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I'm guessing the true owner of DYH"s hat drop shouldn't pick it up even for today.
Yeah, no comment on this.
At any rate, there's no danger to the confirmed townie tonight, because no one knows who they are. There's no danger to the confirmed townie tomorrow, because the doc can back them up.
You don't think that it will be obvious who someone's true hat was by their role?
Also:
1&2) I doubt that all the scum have hats that give themselves away as scum hats, or that they can't have hats that it would seem unlikely for them to have.
3) Not seeing how this applies
4&5) We can try to lock scum out of getting their hats, but see number 1... also, any hats we gave back would be generally obvious who the town power roles are.
6)... um, what?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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If he doesn't name the confirmed townie today, they're not very likely to die at night, considering how many players there are in the game. And he said initially that the mafia kill wouldn't be a problem for him. If someone can verify Az has he has stated, then I actually think this plan could be worth pursuing.
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I can think of a few reasons why a hat you use tonight would be more important than one that protects the confirmed townie. One of those reasons is pro-town, and the other reasons are most definitely not pro-town.
Az: I thought the doc was the confirmed townie...never mind then.
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Vote Goatrevolt
This site needs a fishing emoticon, seriously.
I'm pretty sure we don't want to explore that territory right now.
1 & 2 (identifying scum and townies through abilities)- There aren't going to be any dead giveaways, but there will be good possibilities on both sides. And occasionally, I think we'll clear some folks altogether, especially once they claim their true hats.
Then, everyone in the know will be able to identify a number of the players who are townie because some players will have superpowers that only a townie could have. All of the normal abilities can probably function on scum players and be quite balanced, but the superpowers are a different story. For instance, the hat that gives vigilante superpowers is probably going to be a dead giveaway.
3. (preventing scum from false-claiming) They won't be able to claim abilities that aren't in the game. They won't be able to lie to hide incriminating evidence.
4&5- (locking scum out of their hats, controlling access to hats) See above.
6. We can minimize the role info that spills into the thread, so that the mafia are never able to force us into revealing the details of hat power roles through the lynch.