Possession of the hats, from a power standpoint, does NOT result in the mafia winning by overwhelming force. The town still has the lynch, and an advantage in pure numbers. Possessing all the hats does not mean possessing all the power.
Furthermore, as has been stated repeatedly, there is no evidence to suggest that mafia members can pass one another hats at will. Unless they can do that, all that would be required is for the person in possession of the hats to be killed, or for Charmmaster to go on a hat-hunting spree.
Giving the hats to one person doesn't mean the town can never get them back unless that person consents. That means that that person had better give up the hats, or they're going to meet an untimely death via lynch.
None of your risks actually exist in reality:
The risks: Scum win, scum control all power roles, scum overpower the town with hat
1. The scum winning on day one is a preposterous scenario. Bate would not allow it. Further, by demonstrating that the recipient is town, we needn't worry about this.
2. Impossible. Kill the person in control of the hats, and they return to the public domain.
Actually, the plan ought to work much faster than that.
The current timetable runs more like this:
Day 1: We give all hats to confirmed townie. (Minus one or two temporary exceptions I'll explain if we go ahead with the plan).
Night 1: Confirmed townie records all abilities. Certain key players do X during the night.
Day 2: Confirmed townie reveals lists of abilities. We control distribution throughout the town. Remaining items are given to the original confirmed townie, or subsequent confirmed townies, as needed.
Remainder of the Game: Ownage (hopefully).
I'm very confused with this. How exactly are certain key players going to do X during the night when your confirmed townie has all the hats? Also, if the confirmed townie is just going to reveal the lists the next day, how is this anything short of a mass-claim? Unless we're going to trust one man's ability to recognize what's a potential scum ability and what's a potential town ability, this idea is essentially a mass-claim which takes an extra day. No one can effectively lie about their hat's ability, because anyone else who picks it up will be able to call them out for it. I guess I'm still pretty confused about how this might work.
If the desired end is to gain a public list of abilities, we can do that without giving all the hats to one person. If the desired end is to have a private list of the abilities, it can only be held by one person (it would have to be a confirmed townie) and they cannot share it with anyone else unless there's some sort of private talking ability. If I understood correctly, Az, you were shooting for the private list, but the description of the plan you've laid out here seems to be aimed at getting a public list. We can get that just as easily via mass-claim.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I'm very confused with this. How exactly are certain key players going to do X during the night when your confirmed townie has all the hats?
There will need to be "one or two temporary exceptions".
Quote from Jerubaal »
If the desired end is to gain a public list of abilities, we can do that without giving all the hats to one person. If the desired end is to have a private list of the abilities, it can only be held by one person (it would have to be a confirmed townie) and they cannot share it with anyone else unless there's some sort of private talking ability. If I understood correctly, Az, you were shooting for the private list, but the description of the plan you've laid out here seems to be aimed at getting a public list. We can get that just as easily via mass-claim.
The idea is to have a list of all the abilities that exist in the game, but NOT a list that overtly links the names of the hats to those abilities.
That gives us public knowledge of what abilities exist in the game. And it gives us privately controlled knowledge of who has those abilities. That last bit is the information we need to keep away from the scum. The former is perfectly safe to reveal, and will allow us to coordinate our activities.
That gives us public knowledge of what abilities exist in the game. And it gives us privately controlled knowledge of who has those abilities. That last bit is the information we need to keep away from the scum. The former is perfectly safe to reveal, and will allow us to coordinate our activities.
Privately controlled by you, apparently?
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
EBWODP: So, let me get this straight... there's a confirmed townie... but only to you, who will get all the hats tonight... but in order to prove it to us, you will also pass the hats around somehow?
You know, I think I encountered some of these exact same arguments in rurouni kenshin mafia about the mason pair... they couldn't POSSIBLY be scum because the mod wouldn't allow it. Also, there COULDN'T be more than 1 doc, because the mod wouldn't allow it. But those were wrong, and I was right. Man, I love saying that.
Even if the scum DO have a grab all hats win condition, they shouldn't have any method of grabbing all the hats tonight simply due to this plan. Bateleur has stated that the hats fall off upon death, so it's not likely that the scum simply steal them.
... unless you (or your "confirmed" townie) is scum?
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And there will essentially be one person, an orchestrator of some sort, who is always protected and knows who all the roles belong to? I'm going to be honest, I'll be surprised if there isn't a perceptive scum out there who will be able to pair abilities with hats to some degree of accuracy. Added to this is the fact that we will only be distributing a handful of roles which can be confirmed as townie in the beginning, narrowing the field in which the scum have to identify those given power roles.
I think I see essentially what you're going for here. You're using a confirmed townie as a filter to get a list of abilities out there which is divorced from the actual hat names. The divorcing of names from abilities essentially required a night's worth of time and loss of multiple actions by the town. Also several roles must be made public and connected with the hats (the beret and my current hat) because they should not be picked up by the confirmed townie. Similarly, your plan seems to necessitate the use of certain roles (how you would know these roles, I have not a clue) outside of the ones which will be given to the confirmed townie. I am really having trouble making all the pieces fit together in my head. There seem to be too many holes.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
It is highly unlikely that anyone will figure out what the hats do based upon the hats themselves. I have knowledge of 2 hats thus far, plus we know what the beret does. There is absolutely no way that anyone would randomly guess or even deduct what the two hats that I'm aware of do. And really, can you honestly say that you would have somehow worked out that the beret disabled a person's ability to vote?
It's clear that Bateleur took painstaking effort to ensure that these things would not be able to be figured out.
Azrael's plan is a great one, and has only gotten better as time goes on.
We could just pass the hats back to their rightful owners on Day 2 (thereby enabling everyone to use their superpowers), and just coordinate the abilities/actions within the thread without ever mentioning their connection to their respective hats.
There is no need to mention who is confirmed and who is not on Day 2 to do that.
The more I look at the AzPlanTM, the more I see a chance of something going horribly awry with it. There's been suggestion that if the mafia have all the hats, they win, which makes it unappealing. There's the obvious possibility that Az is scum, which makes it really unappealing. The plan might be ingenious, but I think there's just too much that can go wrong with it
If I'm reading the plan right:
1) Az must get most, if not all the hats today.
2) Sometime during the night he apparently can give all the hats he has to his confirmed townie, whom he will be protecting along with himself during the night.
3) Day 2, Az selectively reveals the hat's abilities, which his buddy can confirm and his buddy doles them out to the right people.
Here's the thing. The roles are attached to the hats, but the hats have no alignment.
Hypothetical scenario:
Let's say theres a hat has a doctor ability attached to it. It's decided tomorrow that it's given out to it's true owner. Now only Az and Az's buddy know who the doc is, but unless Az can see another persons alignment, they have no way of knowing if the person they just gave the mask to was a town doc or a mafia doc.
The same could be true of cop, roleblocker or standard killing roles. (can Az tell the difference between the Vig hat, the SK's hat and a Goon's hat?)
Azrael, are you saying that this brilliant plan of yours takes this into account? Cause if it does, you'll have to explain it to me in smaller words.
I think it's certainly a possibility that the number of hats outnumbers the number of players in this game. If that's the case, what's the proposed way to deal with the additional hats?
Thanks for mentioning that GR, I hadn't considered the possibility of there being "joke hats" in the game. That's probably a given actually, seeing that the hats remain as players are whacked, we probably started with a couple of useless hats, like the beret.
2) Sometime during the night he apparently can give all the hats he has to his confirmed townie, whom he will be protecting along with himself during the night.
I pretty sure this is a wrong interpretation of the posts so far. Where did you get this?
Let's say theres a hat has a doctor ability attached to it. It's decided tomorrow that it's given out to it's true owner. Now only Az and Az's buddy know who the doc is, but unless Az can see another persons alignment, they have no way of knowing if the person they just gave the mask to was a town doc or a mafia doc.
The same could be true of cop, roleblocker or standard killing roles. (can Az tell the difference between the Vig hat, the SK's hat and a Goon's hat?
Why does it matter really? We still have an overpowered town, which should roughly be 3X that of scums. Also, the benefit is that we can hold those people accountable for their night actions if something untoward were to occur, e.g. the wrong person getting roleblocked or something. This significantly curtails the scums' mobility in executing their plans.
EBWODP: I don't know if the hats have no alignment or not, but it makes sense that the hats have no alignment, if they're intended to pass from player to player.
Of course if there's something obvious like "Darth Vader Helmet" running around, I seriously doubt intended for a townie.
Concerning the paranoia about "if the mafia have all hats they win.."
Think about it. Why would bateleur make a game like this?
a hat, once identified, will always remain in control of the town even if it dissappears. we simply force every player to say "drop said hat" and it becomes ours again.
The only reasonable way this win condition could be satisfied is if the mafia win the game traditionally or if they pull off a hoax. If they pull off a hoax the game ends? That would be really unsatisfying for everyone concerned, I'm pretty sure.
Quote from hypothetical argument »
but you're still giving all the hats to the scum!
This isn't as game-ending as it sounds. The hat-holding mafia still has to follow all our instructions, otherwise we lynch him and Azrael. And you can bet the first thing we'll do is inspect one of them to make sure it ISN'T a hoax. Plus, if the mafia start killing our power roles we can be pretty sure what's going on.
Quote from hypothetical argument »
But maybe the scum can pass hats between each other!
Then we just force everyone to "drop said hat" and we get them back. And probably kill 2 scum as well.
Caution is good, but people are literally bending over backwards to explain how Azrael could be scum in this situation. Unless its an instant win (which I categorically reject) its just WAY, WAY too risky.
Please refer to my plan again. I think it solves quite a few problems that are still being brought up.
1) Azrael confirms a townie (hereafter known as CT).
2) We list our true hats.
3) We give all hats to CT. CT now has an idea of who is town: those with starting hats or true hats that wouldn't make sense for a mafia to have.
4) During the night, Az does something to ensure CT's survival.
5) CT lists all powerful abilities on the hats. The town votes democratically on how these abilities should be used. (Protection goes to CT, probably)
5) CT redistributes the hats, each to its true owner. The town is now super-powered; so is the mafia, but their abilities are being controlled by the town democratically.
Possible holes:
1) Azrael is lying. I doubt this, because its a huge risk to take as a mafia and it has innumerable chances to backfire.
2) Scum claiming true hats that are not their real true hat. This either draws suspicion, since said hat does not exist, or will conflict with a townie resulting in a 1 for 1 trade.
3) Scum not giving away all their hats. If a townie's true hat is missing, we can force everyone to say "drop said hat" and we should get it. If it's a hat that the town doesn't know exists, we can't do much about it (ALTHOUGH we could create a list of hats and require everyone to drop every hat on the list.)
Even so, we are gaining control of every hat we know about, which is about all you can ask for.
The simplest solution is for CM to knock off everyone's hats. I bet that his ability is probably not one a scum would have.
I think that merely mass-claiming will do most of the good we need it to. Alternatively, what we do is mass-claim now, then have each person pass his or her hats to the next person down on the player list. That player will verify the identity of those hats. The odds are high that most of the scum will have to give their hats to townies, and if a scum lies about a townie's hats, he'll probably get wagoned next, resulting in a 1-for-1.
Actually, I think this is the best solution. It reduces the risk that the sole carrier of hats will get shot, and also eliminates the minor risk that Az is lying.
So my plan:
1) All players claim their hats' abilities in some systemic fashion, to eliminate easy false-claiming for the scum (say, using the player list, starting with a chosen player, like me).
2) Charm_Master knocks everyones' hats off. This will result in all hats being on the ground. We do this in some systemic fashion so we know who had which hat(s).
3) Each player picks up the hats of the player above him on the player list. For reference:
So Suth will take SB's hat(s), SB will take Orange Flower's hat(s), etc. etc. So everyone will have another player's hat.
4) We proceed as normal through the day.
5) Each player that night learns what their new hats do. This will either verify or incriminate the players.
We can reasonably assume the mafia will kill some players, but they're jammed. If they kill a player to prevent them discovering what a mafioso's hat(s) do(es), then that will incriminate that mafioso. They're forced to deal with it.
6) Each player returns the information of the hats, and we sort out who lied the previous day.
This plan shows a lot of merit, and if anyone decides to pick up a hat that's not thiers, we tell them to put it back, or else we lynch them. (assuming I don't/can't knock it off.)
Do realize that the knock-off ability is an ability my hat has, and not something I as a player have. That's important.
I'm in favor with Xyre's plan over AzPlan.
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I like Xyre's plan as well. It reminds me of High School Mafia, ,where MJM broke the game. Good Stuff.
The only danger is that by accident we may give a mafia a superpower, but we might by accident give a townie a super power. So who knows.
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Quote from god »
Good. Lord.
I am so done with mafia on this site. You people are too stupid to be dealt with. I feel like I am repeatedly ramming my head into a wall.
Quote from god »
Man... you totally nailed me there. I didnt' respond to a vague accusation that had no support, no quotes, no links and absolutly nothing backing it up.
I should try that plan with you. Az, you **** sheep. respond.
I actually think Xyre's plan is worse than Az's plan, since I don't see what the benefit of Xyre's plan is. All it does is get each hat verified by another player, but what does that gain us? My guess is that most hats have normal powers that can start on either town or scum, so we probably only get a little information that way, and meanwhile we may be passing people their superpowers without knowing it (admittedly it's more likely to happen for a townie, though).
Even worse, by claiming the hats' abilities, scum know exactly where every role is. And scum lose nothing. Why would they even need to lie about what their current hat does? Unless you're assuming the scum have started with hats that somehow absolutely incriminate them as scum, and I can't think of many abilities of that nature.
I actually think Xyre's plan is worse than Az's plan, since I don't see what the benefit of Xyre's plan is. All it does is get each hat verified by another player, but what does that gain us? My guess is that most hats have normal powers that can start on either town or scum, so we probably only get a little information that way, and meanwhile we may be passing people their superpowers without knowing it (admittedly it's more likely to happen for a townie, though).
Even worse, by claiming the hats' abilities, scum know exactly where every role is. And scum lose nothing. Why would they even need to lie about what their current hat does? Unless you're assuming the scum have started with hats that somehow absolutely incriminate them as scum, and I can't think of many abilities of that nature.
Wasn't that the intention of Az's plan, though? The advantage here is both that it makes it substantially harder for the mafia to kill the hat-bearer (because the hats are spread out among the town, rather than concentrated on one player).
The point of Az's plan is that the abilities of the hats and the identities of the hats are separate. So barring obvious flavor connections, the scum DON'T know where the abilities end up, just where the hats go.
The point of Az's plan is that the abilities of the hats and the identities of the hats are separate. So barring obvious flavor connections, the scum DON'T know where the abilities end up, just where the hats go.
Okay. But what's the problem? If they know the identities, then so do we, and it's not like they can do anything about it - as long as we know which hat is which, we can regulate their acquisition by threatening players with death unless they cooperate. Meaning the mafia will be unable to do anything with that information.
Okay. But what's the problem? If they know the identities, then so do we, and it's not like they can do anything about it - as long as we know which hat is which, we can regulate their acquisition by threatening players with death unless they cooperate. Meaning the mafia will be unable to do anything with that information.
They can kill the person with the hat. Then the next person to pick it up the next day (if I have the mechanics right) can't use it the following night, so we lose use of the ability for 2 nights. We don't NEED to know the identities, do we? We'll be controlling the abilities regardless: "The person with the hat with ability X, use it on Y." That's the problem.
They can kill the person with the hat. Then the next person to pick it up the next day (if I have the mechanics right) can't use it the following night, so we lose use of the ability for 2 nights. We don't NEED to know the identities, do we? We'll be controlling the abilities regardless: "The person with the hat with ability X, use it on Y." That's the problem.
No.
* A player may only wear one hat at a time.
* Each night a player may choose one hat in their possession to wear (or none), this happens before all night actions. This is normally the only opportunity to put on a hat.
* During the day any player may drop a hat they possess at any time by writing Drop: <name of hat>.
* During the day any player may pick up a hat on the ground at any time by writing Take: <name of hat>. You will receive the hat's description at the end of the day.
So you can pick up the hat during the day, you will learn what it does after the lynch, then you may switch to it and use it during the night.
Xyre: If, for example, there is a cop hat, then the Mafia can continually keep the ability out of play by killing whoever has the hat. Same goes with the doc, or any other ability.
The advantage with Az's plan (assuming he is town) is that we can deny Mafia of most powers (they could be carrying extra hats) and townie roles could be eventually hooked up with their superpowers (as long as we can correctly gauge which ones are town). In addition, via claiming true hats, we can probably confirm several players as town.
Your plan only verifies what the various hats do, and gives no apparent tactical advantages.
DragonDart: I believe that anyone picking up a hat can use it that night. Of course, that doesn't guarantee they won't be killed as well.
Also, if they know that a person has a particular hat and uses its superpower, they'd know exactly who to kill to remove the superpower from the game entirely (assuming no two people have the same true hat, which I strongly doubt).
I appear to have totally misinterpreted the night hat usage.
I don't like Xyre's plan. I can't see how making public every single hat and the ability associated with the hats is going to help us more than the scum.
If we do this plan, the scum have perfect knowledge of every hat and who has what hat. Isn't that the exact opposite of what we want to happen? They would just be able to kill the people with the most powerful hats in whatever order benefited them the most.
I don't answer questions in-thread. PM me if you want to know something.
In any case, this question falls into the broad category of "Asking for new information". To which my response will always be: No, you may not have new information.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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Any questions you may have about the setup or the rules of play should be asked to me via private message. If you address questions to me via the game thread they will be ignored.
Though I doubt that is the sort of question bat will answer if he didn't include it in the rules.
My bad. We'll find out anyway after the first death, but I was contemplating an alternate plan that will work better if true hats are revealed. I'll have to think on it some more, as it may still be worth it.
I am still in favor of Az's plan over Xyre's. Revealing said information to the scums as well as the town basically negates what advantage we could wring out from depriving the scums of said information in the first place.
I strongly disapprove of Xyre's plan. It's essentially a verified mass-claim, which entirely eliminates the point of what Az is trying to do here. The point is to have a list of abilities which are divorced from hats. From what we know, I'd say it's fairly easy to pair people with hats based on flavor, but pairing the abilities is going to be somewhat less apparent (potentially not impossible, but at least more difficult). If we decide that Az's plan won't work, a massclaim might be the next best thing, but I don't know if the benefit would outweigh the loss of having all our power roles thoroughly outed.
ATM, I'm not willing to give up on Az's plan as useless, I'm just still confused on execution. I'm going to outline the plan, insofar as I understand it, below, and hopefully we can discuss it more clearly. It still seems like some people don't quite get what's being proposed.
Step 1)Confirm a townie. Apparently Az can do this. If this cannot be done, the plan is bunk.
Step 2)Give confirmed townie all hats (with several exceptions, Az will need to explain the ones beyond the beret and my hat)
Step 3)Confirmed townie is protected (self-protect?), records all abilities, and publishes them in the thread, without naming which hats are associated with which abilities.
Step 4)We debate the merits of giving certain abilities to the appropriate people, and at the end of the day, the confirmed townie (maybe we'll call him the overmind, I'm playing starcraft again for nostalgia's sake) distributes hats as appropriate. (This step might also include a mass name-claim, I don't see how it works without it)
Step 5)Ownage (hopefully)
Most of the problems I think I'm having with figuring out how this is going to work occur in step 4. During step 4, all the ability information is out there in the thread, and we're basically deciding who should get which roles back. I do imagine that there will be several (hopefully many) roles which can be confirmed as townie roles, but I think there's going to be a lot of grey area with roles. The question then becomes "do we distribute roles to unconfirmed players?" If the answer is "no," the I think we'll likely end up distributing 5 or 6 roles (if we're lucky to have that many confirmed) and the scum won't have too hard of a time picking them off.
I suppose it's somewhat preemptive to discuss what we're planning on doing tomorrow, but I think it's significant in how we evaluate this plan. I'm beginning to think that there's some significant merit to it. If we can get around 5 or 6 confirmed townies plus unlocking our significant power roles this early, it would seem awfully difficult to lose.
Still, Az, I would like you to be as specific as you possibly can about how you plan on implementing this tomorrow, as far as the distribution goes.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
I think identifying true hats will be moderately easy. Not idiot-proof, but I would imagine we can do it with a fair degree of accuracy simply from a name-claim.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
And then, from the name claim and the available hat roles, it's fairly easy for the scum to look at who got their true hat back and thus, who the town power roles are.
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I think the way the handing back of roles tomorrow is going to work as follows:
1. The confirmed townie says all the roles, but doesn't associate roles with hats.
2. The town democratically decides on which roles should be used and which should not (or which are "town" and which are "scum"). This is the portion of the plan which I still have some doubts about, as in, I don't know how effective we can be at distinguishing between scum and town roles.
3. The confirmed townie then drops all hats that correspond to the roles decided upon in step 2, but still does not say which role goes with which hat.
4. Each player picks up one of the dropped hats if it is their true hat and then has their superpower active.
That way, the mafia know what power roles are active, but do not know who has the roles. For example, they may know a doc/cop/vig is active, but they have no idea who the doc, cop, or vig is, besides the fact that it must be one of the players who picked up a hat.
If I'm not understanding something or this is wrong, please correct me.
Or we can just give everyone back his or her true hat as per AS' plan. Heck, we don't even need to name claim. Anyone with no business taking a particular hat will get counterclaimed and most likely lynched.
I think identifying true hats will be moderately easy. Not idiot-proof, but I would imagine we can do it with a fair degree of accuracy simply from a name-claim.
I'm not so sure. But that's just based on my own role.
In any case, Az's plan requires the distribution of several hats at once (by people claiming their hats and the CT passing them out). This is all public - the scum can see who's getting which hat, even if they don't know exactly which abilities are being handed out. The problem is that there needs to be some kind of consensus about which abilities should be going to the town, so the scum still get to see that coordination. Based on how the town agrees what to distribute and what actually gets distributed, the town's power roles will likely be confined to a small set of players that the scum can pick off. Which may be fine if the superpowers are not that necessary (and most likely they are not), since those hats can be re-used by the town anyway (at least their normal powers).
Dagger: That would mean the Mafia also gets their superpowers.
I don't like the Xyre plan. I'm actually warming to Az's plan a little.
Az: When you speak of this confirmed townie, is this someone who you claim has been confirmed by some means to just you, or are we talking someone who can be confirmed to the entire town?
I concur that the Xyre plan is much, much more risky than the private claim. It exposes our best superpower roles to fire from the scum, which is a very real, very serious danger.
The question then becomes "do we distribute roles to unconfirmed players?"
Still, Az, I would like you to be as specific as you possibly can about how you plan on implementing this tomorrow, as far as the distribution goes.
I think we go with Aurorasparrow's solution, and we simply control the activities of support roles.
If there were something that simply screams that it's meant for a scum role, like the superpower is unblockable kills, then certainly we don't give that to an unconfirmed townie, but in most cases I think catch and release will be the best policy to follow.
The problem is that there needs to be some kind of consensus about which abilities should be going to the town, so the scum still get to see that coordination. Based on how the town agrees what to distribute and what actually gets distributed, the town's power roles will likely be confined to a small set of players that the scum can pick off. Which may be fine if the superpowers are not that necessary (and most likely they are not), since those hats can be re-used by the town anyway (at least their normal powers).
Dagger: That would mean the Mafia also gets their superpowers.
Considering how many hats we'll have being caught and mostly released, I think we'll be able to get out of that just fine. And yes, although there's a good chance with this version that the mafia may get their superpowers, 'sparrow's plan works even better than simply restricting access to them. Now, we would actually control the scum's superpowered abilities.
I don't like the Xyre plan. I'm actually warming to Az's plan a little.
Az: When you speak of this confirmed townie, is this someone who you claim has been confirmed by some means to just you, or are we talking someone who can be confirmed to the entire town?
I'm talking about someone whose alignment can be verified simply by passing a hat. Anyone who reads what the hat does, is going to know without any doubt that that person is on the level.
Vote arimnaes - I'll remove it when you prove that you have two hats.
I will not be participating in this plan until there is a proven townie to me. If it has to be proven with the use of hats, then it seems we would have to wait until tomorrow to do it anyway.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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<Limited Clan>
Furthermore, as has been stated repeatedly, there is no evidence to suggest that mafia members can pass one another hats at will. Unless they can do that, all that would be required is for the person in possession of the hats to be killed, or for Charmmaster to go on a hat-hunting spree.
Giving the hats to one person doesn't mean the town can never get them back unless that person consents. That means that that person had better give up the hats, or they're going to meet an untimely death via lynch.
None of your risks actually exist in reality:
1. The scum winning on day one is a preposterous scenario. Bate would not allow it. Further, by demonstrating that the recipient is town, we needn't worry about this.
2. Impossible. Kill the person in control of the hats, and they return to the public domain.
3. Ditto.
If the desired end is to gain a public list of abilities, we can do that without giving all the hats to one person. If the desired end is to have a private list of the abilities, it can only be held by one person (it would have to be a confirmed townie) and they cannot share it with anyone else unless there's some sort of private talking ability. If I understood correctly, Az, you were shooting for the private list, but the description of the plan you've laid out here seems to be aimed at getting a public list. We can get that just as easily via mass-claim.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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There will need to be "one or two temporary exceptions".
The idea is to have a list of all the abilities that exist in the game, but NOT a list that overtly links the names of the hats to those abilities.
That gives us public knowledge of what abilities exist in the game. And it gives us privately controlled knowledge of who has those abilities. That last bit is the information we need to keep away from the scum. The former is perfectly safe to reveal, and will allow us to coordinate our activities.
Privately controlled by you, apparently?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
You know, I think I encountered some of these exact same arguments in rurouni kenshin mafia about the mason pair... they couldn't POSSIBLY be scum because the mod wouldn't allow it. Also, there COULDN'T be more than 1 doc, because the mod wouldn't allow it. But those were wrong, and I was right. Man, I love saying that.
... unless you (or your "confirmed" townie) is scum?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
I think I see essentially what you're going for here. You're using a confirmed townie as a filter to get a list of abilities out there which is divorced from the actual hat names. The divorcing of names from abilities essentially required a night's worth of time and loss of multiple actions by the town. Also several roles must be made public and connected with the hats (the beret and my current hat) because they should not be picked up by the confirmed townie. Similarly, your plan seems to necessitate the use of certain roles (how you would know these roles, I have not a clue) outside of the ones which will be given to the confirmed townie. I am really having trouble making all the pieces fit together in my head. There seem to be too many holes.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
It's clear that Bateleur took painstaking effort to ensure that these things would not be able to be figured out.
Azrael's plan is a great one, and has only gotten better as time goes on.
There is no need to mention who is confirmed and who is not on Day 2 to do that.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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If I'm reading the plan right:
1) Az must get most, if not all the hats today.
2) Sometime during the night he apparently can give all the hats he has to his confirmed townie, whom he will be protecting along with himself during the night.
3) Day 2, Az selectively reveals the hat's abilities, which his buddy can confirm and his buddy doles them out to the right people.
Here's the thing. The roles are attached to the hats, but the hats have no alignment.
Hypothetical scenario:
Let's say theres a hat has a doctor ability attached to it. It's decided tomorrow that it's given out to it's true owner. Now only Az and Az's buddy know who the doc is, but unless Az can see another persons alignment, they have no way of knowing if the person they just gave the mask to was a town doc or a mafia doc.
The same could be true of cop, roleblocker or standard killing roles. (can Az tell the difference between the Vig hat, the SK's hat and a Goon's hat?)
Azrael, are you saying that this brilliant plan of yours takes this into account? Cause if it does, you'll have to explain it to me in smaller words.
Becuz I r 2 stewpid.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Really? Since when do we know that hats are without alignment?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I pretty sure this is a wrong interpretation of the posts so far. Where did you get this?
Why does it matter really? We still have an overpowered town, which should roughly be 3X that of scums. Also, the benefit is that we can hold those people accountable for their night actions if something untoward were to occur, e.g. the wrong person getting roleblocked or something. This significantly curtails the scums' mobility in executing their plans.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Of course if there's something obvious like "Darth Vader Helmet" running around, I seriously doubt intended for a townie.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, I dunno. I'll sleep on it and see if I'm can think straight in the morning.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Think about it. Why would bateleur make a game like this?
a hat, once identified, will always remain in control of the town even if it dissappears. we simply force every player to say "drop said hat" and it becomes ours again.
The only reasonable way this win condition could be satisfied is if the mafia win the game traditionally or if they pull off a hoax. If they pull off a hoax the game ends? That would be really unsatisfying for everyone concerned, I'm pretty sure.
This isn't as game-ending as it sounds. The hat-holding mafia still has to follow all our instructions, otherwise we lynch him and Azrael. And you can bet the first thing we'll do is inspect one of them to make sure it ISN'T a hoax. Plus, if the mafia start killing our power roles we can be pretty sure what's going on.
Then we just force everyone to "drop said hat" and we get them back. And probably kill 2 scum as well.
Caution is good, but people are literally bending over backwards to explain how Azrael could be scum in this situation. Unless its an instant win (which I categorically reject) its just WAY, WAY too risky.
Please refer to my plan again. I think it solves quite a few problems that are still being brought up.
1) Azrael confirms a townie (hereafter known as CT).
2) We list our true hats.
3) We give all hats to CT. CT now has an idea of who is town: those with starting hats or true hats that wouldn't make sense for a mafia to have.
4) During the night, Az does something to ensure CT's survival.
5) CT lists all powerful abilities on the hats. The town votes democratically on how these abilities should be used. (Protection goes to CT, probably)
5) CT redistributes the hats, each to its true owner. The town is now super-powered; so is the mafia, but their abilities are being controlled by the town democratically.
Possible holes:
1) Azrael is lying. I doubt this, because its a huge risk to take as a mafia and it has innumerable chances to backfire.
2) Scum claiming true hats that are not their real true hat. This either draws suspicion, since said hat does not exist, or will conflict with a townie resulting in a 1 for 1 trade.
3) Scum not giving away all their hats. If a townie's true hat is missing, we can force everyone to say "drop said hat" and we should get it. If it's a hat that the town doesn't know exists, we can't do much about it (ALTHOUGH we could create a list of hats and require everyone to drop every hat on the list.)
Even so, we are gaining control of every hat we know about, which is about all you can ask for.
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I think that merely mass-claiming will do most of the good we need it to. Alternatively, what we do is mass-claim now, then have each person pass his or her hats to the next person down on the player list. That player will verify the identity of those hats. The odds are high that most of the scum will have to give their hats to townies, and if a scum lies about a townie's hats, he'll probably get wagoned next, resulting in a 1-for-1.
Actually, I think this is the best solution. It reduces the risk that the sole carrier of hats will get shot, and also eliminates the minor risk that Az is lying.
So my plan:
1) All players claim their hats' abilities in some systemic fashion, to eliminate easy false-claiming for the scum (say, using the player list, starting with a chosen player, like me).
2) Charm_Master knocks everyones' hats off. This will result in all hats being on the ground. We do this in some systemic fashion so we know who had which hat(s).
3) Each player picks up the hats of the player above him on the player list. For reference:
So Suth will take SB's hat(s), SB will take Orange Flower's hat(s), etc. etc. So everyone will have another player's hat.
4) We proceed as normal through the day.
5) Each player that night learns what their new hats do. This will either verify or incriminate the players.
We can reasonably assume the mafia will kill some players, but they're jammed. If they kill a player to prevent them discovering what a mafioso's hat(s) do(es), then that will incriminate that mafioso. They're forced to deal with it.
6) Each player returns the information of the hats, and we sort out who lied the previous day.
I strongly support this over the AzPlan.
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Do realize that the knock-off ability is an ability my hat has, and not something I as a player have. That's important.
I'm in favor with Xyre's plan over AzPlan.
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The only danger is that by accident we may give a mafia a superpower, but we might by accident give a townie a super power. So who knows.
Even worse, by claiming the hats' abilities, scum know exactly where every role is. And scum lose nothing. Why would they even need to lie about what their current hat does? Unless you're assuming the scum have started with hats that somehow absolutely incriminate them as scum, and I can't think of many abilities of that nature.
Wasn't that the intention of Az's plan, though? The advantage here is both that it makes it substantially harder for the mafia to kill the hat-bearer (because the hats are spread out among the town, rather than concentrated on one player).
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Okay. But what's the problem? If they know the identities, then so do we, and it's not like they can do anything about it - as long as we know which hat is which, we can regulate their acquisition by threatening players with death unless they cooperate. Meaning the mafia will be unable to do anything with that information.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
They can kill the person with the hat. Then the next person to pick it up the next day (if I have the mechanics right) can't use it the following night, so we lose use of the ability for 2 nights. We don't NEED to know the identities, do we? We'll be controlling the abilities regardless: "The person with the hat with ability X, use it on Y." That's the problem.
No.
So you can pick up the hat during the day, you will learn what it does after the lynch, then you may switch to it and use it during the night.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The advantage with Az's plan (assuming he is town) is that we can deny Mafia of most powers (they could be carrying extra hats) and townie roles could be eventually hooked up with their superpowers (as long as we can correctly gauge which ones are town). In addition, via claiming true hats, we can probably confirm several players as town.
Your plan only verifies what the various hats do, and gives no apparent tactical advantages.
DragonDart: I believe that anyone picking up a hat can use it that night. Of course, that doesn't guarantee they won't be killed as well.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
I appear to have totally misinterpreted the night hat usage.
If we do this plan, the scum have perfect knowledge of every hat and who has what hat. Isn't that the exact opposite of what we want to happen? They would just be able to kill the people with the most powerful hats in whatever order benefited them the most.
In any case, this question falls into the broad category of "Asking for new information". To which my response will always be: No, you may not have new information.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Though I doubt that is the sort of question bat will answer if he didn't include it in the rules.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
ATM, I'm not willing to give up on Az's plan as useless, I'm just still confused on execution. I'm going to outline the plan, insofar as I understand it, below, and hopefully we can discuss it more clearly. It still seems like some people don't quite get what's being proposed.
Step 1)Confirm a townie. Apparently Az can do this. If this cannot be done, the plan is bunk.
Step 2)Give confirmed townie all hats (with several exceptions, Az will need to explain the ones beyond the beret and my hat)
Step 3)Confirmed townie is protected (self-protect?), records all abilities, and publishes them in the thread, without naming which hats are associated with which abilities.
Step 4)We debate the merits of giving certain abilities to the appropriate people, and at the end of the day, the confirmed townie (maybe we'll call him the overmind, I'm playing starcraft again for nostalgia's sake) distributes hats as appropriate. (This step might also include a mass name-claim, I don't see how it works without it)
Step 5)Ownage (hopefully)
Most of the problems I think I'm having with figuring out how this is going to work occur in step 4. During step 4, all the ability information is out there in the thread, and we're basically deciding who should get which roles back. I do imagine that there will be several (hopefully many) roles which can be confirmed as townie roles, but I think there's going to be a lot of grey area with roles. The question then becomes "do we distribute roles to unconfirmed players?" If the answer is "no," the I think we'll likely end up distributing 5 or 6 roles (if we're lucky to have that many confirmed) and the scum won't have too hard of a time picking them off.
I suppose it's somewhat preemptive to discuss what we're planning on doing tomorrow, but I think it's significant in how we evaluate this plan. I'm beginning to think that there's some significant merit to it. If we can get around 5 or 6 confirmed townies plus unlocking our significant power roles this early, it would seem awfully difficult to lose.
Still, Az, I would like you to be as specific as you possibly can about how you plan on implementing this tomorrow, as far as the distribution goes.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
1. The confirmed townie says all the roles, but doesn't associate roles with hats.
2. The town democratically decides on which roles should be used and which should not (or which are "town" and which are "scum"). This is the portion of the plan which I still have some doubts about, as in, I don't know how effective we can be at distinguishing between scum and town roles.
3. The confirmed townie then drops all hats that correspond to the roles decided upon in step 2, but still does not say which role goes with which hat.
4. Each player picks up one of the dropped hats if it is their true hat and then has their superpower active.
That way, the mafia know what power roles are active, but do not know who has the roles. For example, they may know a doc/cop/vig is active, but they have no idea who the doc, cop, or vig is, besides the fact that it must be one of the players who picked up a hat.
If I'm not understanding something or this is wrong, please correct me.
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I'm not so sure. But that's just based on my own role.
In any case, Az's plan requires the distribution of several hats at once (by people claiming their hats and the CT passing them out). This is all public - the scum can see who's getting which hat, even if they don't know exactly which abilities are being handed out. The problem is that there needs to be some kind of consensus about which abilities should be going to the town, so the scum still get to see that coordination. Based on how the town agrees what to distribute and what actually gets distributed, the town's power roles will likely be confined to a small set of players that the scum can pick off. Which may be fine if the superpowers are not that necessary (and most likely they are not), since those hats can be re-used by the town anyway (at least their normal powers).
Dagger: That would mean the Mafia also gets their superpowers.
Granted, I may have misinterpreted the posts so far...
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Az: When you speak of this confirmed townie, is this someone who you claim has been confirmed by some means to just you, or are we talking someone who can be confirmed to the entire town?
I think we go with Aurorasparrow's solution, and we simply control the activities of support roles.
If there were something that simply screams that it's meant for a scum role, like the superpower is unblockable kills, then certainly we don't give that to an unconfirmed townie, but in most cases I think catch and release will be the best policy to follow.
Considering how many hats we'll have being caught and mostly released, I think we'll be able to get out of that just fine. And yes, although there's a good chance with this version that the mafia may get their superpowers, 'sparrow's plan works even better than simply restricting access to them. Now, we would actually control the scum's superpowered abilities.
I'm talking about someone whose alignment can be verified simply by passing a hat. Anyone who reads what the hat does, is going to know without any doubt that that person is on the level.
I will not be participating in this plan until there is a proven townie to me. If it has to be proven with the use of hats, then it seems we would have to wait until tomorrow to do it anyway.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Ged offers aurorasparrow a high five.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Vote Count
3 - Azrael (~Tilde~, BigTime, Sutherlands)
1 - goatrevolt (Dagger)
1 - Charm_Master3125 (GrathkisIsAGod)
1 - Ged (Orange Flower)
1 - DYH (AlphaInsidious)
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Beret
Top Hat
Fez
I can't help feeling we're getting close. Maybe if we catch the moon just as it's rising...
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I unvoted a while back.