All that stuff in quotes in 157 was my text. Huh, no wonder no one responded.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
A point about the Zionite case that everyone seems to have missed: my speculation was not that he had nothing to do on night zero, but that he was unable to use an ability.
The key factor here is that he corrected himself over the "no night zero" error. The psychology is spot on.
But surely, as part of a scumgroup, even if he could use no ability, he would be talking to his partners at night, planning team strategy, and surely at least some of them would be able to use an ability, roleblock, whatnot. So it's unlikely he would forget about the night.
The second paragraph, I didn't understand at all.
Post #45: Defends FoS of Wuffles by stating that he seemed eager to start the day, which is a null tell.
He asked why the FOS, and if it was serious. I told him why -- possibility of rushing the town into mistaken wagons before everyone's even looked in -- and said 'not that serious yet'. Questions were asked, and answered.
Also, null tell to you. Not necessarily null tell to me.
Post #66: Terribly scummy vote on Wuffles. Says Wuffles OMGUSed him or something.
Don't take words out of context. #66 quotes WoD as saying he might remove his vote on Wuffles if he sees a 'random vote... an OMGUS is good too'. To which I said 'technically he OMGUSed me' -- a clear reference to #44, which contains the line 'OMGUS IGMEOY desCoures'.
Don't misrepresent me, either. Perhaps I didn't make it quite obvious enough, but the vote was for perceived avoidance tactics on Wuffles's part -- e.g. #61, which contains dismissal ('Whatever'), ad hominem disguised as mafia theory ('...really, really bad at this game anyways') and a mixture of both of the above with reference to Stormblind's initial vote on him.
Post #68: Last part of this posts reeks of fishing. Didn't like his explanation of this.
Fair enough. It's your prerogative to 'like' or 'dislike' my explanation. I do find it interesting that you apparently don't find AH to be fishing, but you do think I was.
Post #72: Ad hom attack on Cyan, huge deflection onto Cyan through irrelevent questions and the attack.
I do not like Cyan. I do not like Cyan's playstyle. None of this would have stopped me from giving a proper, logical reply had his post contained something other than 'he's scummy'.
Nor were the questions 'irrelevant'. Mafia requires that you collect a mental map of reactions and relationships between members of the ostensible town, none of which you can put together without questions. And even should you not wish to concede this point, there is no way you can possibly construe the first question, which a direct query to Cyan as to exactly what he found 'scummy' about the post he references, to be 'irrelevant'.
A final theoretical point. So someone pops up, throws an accusation with no real support behind it, and then blips back below the surface. Do you not question him?
Post #127: Explains early FoSes on Wuffles and tanarin. Second half of this posts is horribly waffley.
There are 40 posts between #87 and #127, and 82 between #45 and #127. Is it inconceivable that further responses from tanarin in between either pair of said posts might have had an effect on my opinion of him? Or am I expected to go 'he's scum', 'yeah, he's scum', 'scum scum scum' like some kind of miniature George Bush?
Post #151: Is trying really hard to explain why he's so knowledgable about Cyan's playstyle, which I don't like. He seems to know a lot about other players' playstyles, but doesn't know that Wuffles as town is often overdefensive and takes things personally (because he attacked him as scum for it).
I remember Cyan's playstyle so very clearly because, in the games I read as research, they were usually the most frustrating part of the day to trawl through. His playstyle is... hard to forget. Even when one might want to.
And I disagree with your meta on Wuffles. He does overreact occasionally, but almost always with good reason -- a dayvig shooting suddenly, thinking he had been speedlynched, etc. etc. Not near the start of day 1. And this overreaction usually takes the form of open confrontation, not avoidance.
Post #153: States that he threw no suspicion Cyan's way. This is troubling, because this means he actually just attacked him for how he plays. He admitted to this, butthe unjustified attack is not gone unnoticed.
Yes, it was largely unjustified in the context of this game. Your point? I'm neither denying that, nor making a big deal out of it. This is a horribly weak reason to suspect someone. Might as well throw suspicion on anyone who says anything bad about Tilde's play, for example.
Post #186: Makes the Zionite case more black and white than it should be. There are many more possibilities than just him either be the SK, Vig, Town, or Scum. Not so sure what to think of this, actually, but I noted it.
I am interested to hear what other possibilities you think there may be. Barring some extreme original role, I don't see any other possibilities beyond SK and town.
Post #189: Votes bat over Wuffles. Admits that Wuffles is scummy, but votes Bat anyway. I don't like this because bat has at least a little bit of a good point in voting for Wuffles.
...this one is just so far out in Misrep Land that I have to quote my own post:
...more seriously, though. The way you're retroactively justifying the wagon makes me feel worse about you. Initially I thought the ones that jumped on were worse, but at least Wuffles admits it's bad logic...
Reason for suspicion on bateleur: The way he seems to be retroactively justifying a dead krap logick wagon. Opinion of those who jumped on said wagon: Scummy. (This means AH, Wuffles, and Roja, by the by.) Reason for shifting vote to bateleur: Because Wuffles at least admits the wagon was based on bad logic, while bateleur appears to still be proverbially flogging the dead horse, for no potential gain to town. Theory: Everyone already knows I am suspicious of Wuffles, and why, although you may or may not agree. Removing my vote is not going to change that in the immediate future. Placing my vote on bateleur will draw attention to him, which is what I felt was needed. Capische? Itemized enough to forestall further 'creative interpretation'?
I don't like your language in that last one, by the way. It seems couched primarily to make me look worse -- 'admits Wuffles is scummy'? Of course I 'admit' Wuffles is scummy, it's only been the entire gist of the posts you list above that. And aren't you implying in your 'summaries' of said posts that you don't think he's scummy?
Paired with the iffyness of him saying he's new to Mafia but still being really knowledgeable about other players and frankly the game itself, which suggests he's probably a gimmick lying makes me feel that he's scum.
....so let me get this straight. You're suspicious of me -- and voting me -- essentially for the following reasons:
1. You don't agree with my reasoning.
2. I have a personal opinion on Cyan.
3. You think I'm a gimmick.
.....
For 2, fine. I probably did go over the top on that one, and said as much. But newsflash on the other two -- for 1, everyone has different reasoning, regardless of whether they're scum or town. Being suspicious of someone for disagreeing with you is tantamount to saying 'he doesn't think the way I do! He must be scum!' If you disagree with someone's reasoning, you debate/argue/discuss it with them -- that's kind of what this game is supposed to be about. And for 3, I could repeat ad nauseam that I'm not a gimmick, but apparently that will do nothing for at least a couple months or so. So be it. But even if I were a gimmick, that would have absolutely no bearing on my alignment. At all.
Need proof? Didn't loran run a gimmick in a fairly recent game, where he lied rather egregiously to try and cover said gimmick? He was town, wasn't he?
Hmmmm?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
All that stuff in quotes in 157 was my text. Huh, no wonder no one responded.
If you'll note, I did indeed respond to what was inside the quote box. See #161.
@RafK: To repeat what I said earlier -- Minineko and I are both signed up for Berserk Mafia as well. Together with a host of others, including a number of others that seem to have single-digit post counts as well. So are we all gimmicks?
@draygn_mage: 'Vibe' doesn't cut it. Reasons?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Placing my vote on bateleur will draw attention to him, which is what I felt was needed.
Oh, it's like that is it?
Unvote
Vote: desCoures
That's not intended to draw attention to you, by the way. It's intended to lynch scum. I hear it's a good use for a vote.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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That's not intended to draw attention to you, by the way. It's intended to lynch scum. I hear it's a good use for a vote.
...this makes me feel like I should say something, but this once I am completely -- utterly -- at a loss for words.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I feel like too much is being made of the gimmick thing. DC has plenty of scummy activity without this even being taken into consideration(though to be fair, he did respond well to Krowzy's PBPA).
I do, however, want to address one thing:
@RafK: To repeat what I said earlier -- Minineko and I are both signed up for Berserk Mafia as well. Together with a host of others, including a number of others that seem to have single-digit post counts as well. So are we all gimmicks?
This is classic misrepresentation, and in a very obvious anti-town fashion. The ppoint is not how many posts you have, or how many people are signed up for Berserk Mafia that have similar post counts. The point is that you have repeatedly used statements/sentiments that would simply not be used by a new player. Not even one that read a few games.
And incidentally, the games that you mentioned don't really matchup with your attack on my mentality. In ASoIaF, I was scum. So clearly, that's not a good indication of how I generally act as town. In Points, I was killed N1(or maybe it was N2, I don't remember), killed by a scum because he was convinced that my plan would ensure an overwhelming town victory. Whether or not this is true is heavily debatable, but that part is irrelevant. And Hats is also not a valid example. You're really giving the lie to yourself, over something that really does not mean anything. To be fair, it's possible that you're just 'in too deep', so to speak.
Sorry, just catching up, guys. There are way too many people in this game to keep track of. I was pretty convinced that DC was Tilde until I realized Tilde was in the game. Anyway, if anyone's curious to lookin on this, DC's non-gimmick is someone who uses single quotes rather than regular ones, italicizes long segments of text frequently, and uses tags habitually and expertly. Anyway, I don't really see much merit in that case.
I'll admit that I haven't read everything as thoroughly as I'd like so far, but I'm not quite understanding why bat thinks that Zionite is likely to be scum, when mafia are among the most likely players to have realized there was a night last night. Making the argument that a scum could have failed to notice does nothing to improve this case, unless you can show that a scum is more likely to have failed to notice than a townie, which is obviously false. That is the only point against him, isn't it?
I'd even go so far as to say that Cyan's comment on the scum's knowledge of this point is a tell against Cyan (though an obviously minor one). It's very easy to want to use information as scum to make yourself look particularly observant and helpful, especially when there's a good chance that it won't make any difference, like here. Especially for a player like Cyan, who has a known tendency not to check his facts before giving them, the fact that he put the facts together first seems somewhat more likely to happen as scum than as town.
Still doing some study, though. I'll have more thoughts later.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Cyan's original attacks on desCoures were a response to posts #45 and #68. However, after looking at dC's response in post #207, I'm getting a "strong coordinated attack" vibe from Cyan and Wuffles... which implies some night communication between them.
So you're asserting...what, exactly? That before the game started, Wuffles and I secretly decided to just attack DC? What if he had not provided adequate reason for me to attack him in the first place? Would I just make something up and hope it works out for the best? I mean..honestly. I have no idea what you're saying. Do YOU even know what you are saying?
Cyan's original attacks on desCoures were a response to posts #45 and #68. However, after looking at dC's response in post #207, I'm getting a "strong coordinated attack" vibe from Cyan and Wuffles... which implies some night communication between them.
I'm not sure I do. You admit you despise Cyan's play style. You asked him some pretty pointed questions. It's where you were going whether you know it or not. I'm suggesting you may be somewhat biased in this regard. I'm not the only one who got there, but you already answered RafaelK if not satisfactorily.
Quote from Cyan »
The notion that good players address every point made against them is pretty much patently absurd. If anything, the majority of them get ignored entirely, because they're inaccurate to begin with.
And you trying to stick to your theory that Zionite slipped comes across, to me, as you having gotten caught with your hand in the cookie jar, but trying to make excuses instead of just trying to move on. This isn't what I would expect from a town mentality.
Blatant misrepresentation. Did you even read my post? Ignoring suspicion is not what made Zionite suspicious. It just did nothing to lessen my initial suspicion. bateleur has something. Everyone should pay attention.
But surely, as part of a scumgroup, even if he could use no ability, he would be talking to his partners at night, planning team strategy, and surely at least some of them would be able to use an ability, roleblock, whatnot. So it's unlikely he would forget about the night.
The second paragraph, I didn't understand at all.
Quote from abandon hope »
It's about mindset not about what actually happened. I can see the phrase "when we get a night" being thrown around in a mafia discussion.
Indicative of mindset. That kind of clue is far more relevant then irrational behavior. The latter is just part of the human condition.
His mindset was that he didn't have an active N0 ability, eg, he did nothing on N0. You guys are being ridiculously obtuse about this. If he were scum, he would have done SOMETHING on N0, even if it were just communcating, thereby this situation should never have happened in the first place.
I am curious, though, about Bateleur saying that Zionite went back and corrected himself later, I'm not sure what this is in reference to.
This is classic misrepresentation, and in a very obvious anti-town fashion. The ppoint is not how many posts you have, or how many people are signed up for Berserk Mafia that have similar post counts. The point is that you have repeatedly used statements/sentiments that would simply not be used by a new player. Not even one that read a few games.
That, and the more "scum" point was that if DC is a gimmick then he's lying about not being a gimmick. He wasn't being called scum just for being a gimmick, but because people thought he was lying about it. He wasn't being called scum for not liking Cyan, but rather because the opinions he gave on Cyan's play in this game were and still are inconsistent.
Any set of arguments this early in the game, like krowzy's, are going to have weak spots to counterattack, but DC has felt the need to do quite a lot of strawmanning at the same time. I don't like it.
Cyan's original attacks on desCoures were a response to posts #45 and #68. However, after looking at dC's response in post #207, I'm getting a "strong coordinated attack" vibe from Cyan and Wuffles... which implies some night communication between them.
Vote WufflesII
Before people jump you for the night communication part (which is silly), looking for people who seem to be working together is not a bad way to go scum hunting, they don't need to night communicate to do that.
I don't think it's true in this specific case, though.
Cyan's original attacks on desCoures were a response to posts #45 and #68. However, after looking at dC's response in post #207, I'm getting a "strong coordinated attack" vibe from Cyan and Wuffles... which implies some night communication between them.
Vote WufflesII
uh...what? I never said DC was scum, only that his original reasons for voting me were stupid.
Where the hell did you get "coordinated" from?!?!
* Wuffles_II hits Tilde with the Stupid Stick(TM) *
Pointing out that that just screams laziness to me, I wonder why Sutherlands couldn't think of something useful or substantial to make a post of?
Anyways, at this point I think DC is still more than a gimmick, given the amount of dust it's raised and the fact he's trying to stay far away from it now that he's looking better he still gets my number 1 suspicion...
It may not be laziness. It may be that he is holding those who suspect DC to a higher standard of just voting because of a gimmick. He probably wanted to see if anyone would actually produce a proper reason for suspecting DC.
Or he could be scum seeing if the wagon is ripe to jump on, but knowing suther, its likely the first.
I think DC is town, because the only reason his FOSes made sense was as a ploy to get reactions, and I don't think any scum would do something that dumb. I don't know how much I buy Wuffles' overreaction, but the post itself doesn't make sense from a scum.
@DC- if I had to choose some specific behavior that rang bells with me, it was the "oh my god, I've got votes on me, I had better start laying false trails by saying X is townie and Y is townie but Z and W are definitely scum." Its the kind of thing scum do when they're much closer to lynch and think that nothing said will dissuade the town from lynching them. Other than that, you've just been giving me a very scummy vibe. I'm sorry if you don't like that I'm good with voting my gut on day one, but that's what I have to go on.
I think DC is town, because the only reason his FOSes made sense was as a ploy to get reactions, and I don't think any scum would do something that dumb.
I don't buy this. Firstly, this is actually WIFOM, and Second, because I've seen newb (which he claims to be) scum act way scummier than lay some unwarranted FoSes and then later double back and say "oh I was just looking for reactions".
Alright, I go away for a day and can only read and I come back and see a whole bunch of activity. Anyway here we go...
Wuffles_II wagon: Well I haven't played enough with Wuffles to know for sure if this is how he reacts as town, but in my experience and has been said before overreaction is not in and of itself a tell. While even I got on his case for the bandwagon comment, I don't think the fuss it caused was THAT worth it as it has gotten us nowhere with him. The only thing it has achieved is possibly making him look bad if this is in fact how he acts as town.
Zionite Wagon: Ok...WTH was going on here? That has to be the worse logic I have seen for a wagon in a while. I am glad that Cyan cut that one before it got out of hand because I think we all know there are PLENTY of reasons he may forgot there was a N0, and not because he has a kill. Hell, I can think we can all think of reasons that don't involve him being scum that he may of slipped like that.
FoS: Bat, AH, and Wuffles
DC Wagon: Now here is an interesting one. He claims to be completely new, yet acts like he has plenty of experience. Now, he may just be a damn good reader and picked up very quickly on people's play styles, but I am doubting that myself as he has a damn good read on Cyan it appears. So where does that leave us? In my mind there are one of two possibilities here.
A) He is a gimmick of someone who would rather have a fair shake at things as opposed to being meta'ed D1. If this is the case then there is no case on voting him unless you really think him lying about being a gimmick is that bad. I personally think this may be the case.
B) We have some funny stuff going on. Now what do I mean by that? Well I don't want to throw too much speculation here but this may be something similar to Suth's Role in ASoFaI. If this is the case then the question becomes is he the puppet or the master?
My Wagon: My big problem here is the fact that fadebot hasn't answered The question asked of him. In fact the only person to give anyreason on voting me was dattebayo. So I'll ask fadebot again and Suth the first time, why are you voting me?
FoS: Fadebot and Suth until we get an answer from them.
I think that about covers most of how I feel about what I missed...There's just SO MANY PEOPLE!!!
I don't buy this. Firstly, this is actually WIFOM, and Second, because I've seen newb (which he claims to be) scum act way scummier than lay some unwarranted FoSes and then later double back and say "oh I was just looking for reactions".
Mafia don't have any reason to stick their necks out in the open. And I don't think he's a newb.
That, and the more "scum" point was that if DC is a gimmick then he's lying about not being a gimmick. He wasn't being called scum just for being a gimmick, but because people thought he was lying about it.
Do you realize DC said it was his first game in the signup thread? So while it's still possible he's lying, it can't possibly be an alignment tell. The fact you've tried (twice) to push this non-tell doesn't sit well with me.
tanarin: Are you really that worried about the votes on you? That you even call it a "wagon" when basically no one's mentioned it since my vote (and Roja's question)?
tanarin: Are you really that worried about the votes on you? That you even call it a "wagon" when basically no one's mentioned it since my vote (and Roja's question)?
Mafia don't have any reason to stick their necks out in the open.
The defence would like to ask how many posts it took in the recently concluded Points Mafia for andelijah and cp to dance in a rainstorm wearing copper armor and yelling "All Gods are bastards!".
Scum often can't stop themselves doing something daft on day 1, a fact of which I like to take full advantage. I reckon the town hitrate on this site overall on day 1 is actually better than day 2 or day 3 on this site, it's not just me personally.
The defence would like to ask how many posts it took in the recently concluded Points Mafia for andelijah and cp to dance in a rainstorm wearing copper armor and yelling "All Gods are bastards!".
Scum often can't stop themselves doing something daft on day 1, a fact of which I like to take full advantage. I reckon the town hitrate on this site overall on day 1 is actually better than day 2 or day 3 on this site, it's not just me personally.
It may not be laziness. It may be that he is holding those who suspect DC to a higher standard of just voting because of a gimmick. He probably wanted to see if anyone would actually produce a proper reason for suspecting DC.
Or he could be scum seeing if the wagon is ripe to jump on, but knowing suther, its likely the first.
I feel like too much is being made of the gimmick thing. DC has plenty of scummy activity without this even being taken into consideration(though to be fair, he did respond well to Krowzy's PBPA).
Several posts before this, you state you 'agree with much of what krowzy had to say'. I can take this to mean (given, you know, the absolute lack of any other reasoning from you) that your reasons for placing suspicion on me are much the same as krowzy's. And here you say I 'responded well' to krowzy's PBPA (and I use the 'A' here very loosely), by which you seem to acknowledge that I basically showed what few arguments of his were valid to have absolutely no relevance to my alignment in this game.
This is classic misrepresentation, and in a very obvious anti-town fashion. The ppoint is not how many posts you have, or how many people are signed up for Berserk Mafia that have similar post counts. The point is that you have repeatedly used statements/sentiments that would simply not be used by a new player. Not even one that read a few games.
Re: my response to krowzy, particularly the bit about gimmick or not-gimmick, regardless of which being the case, being totally irrelevant as to alignment. I'd also love to know just how this is 'anti-town', given that I state nothing to do with the town in this game, I am not using it to point suspicion at anyone, and the point itself is -- again -- one completely irrelevant to the alignment of people in a game of Mafia.
And incidentally, the games that you mentioned don't really matchup with your attack on my mentality. In ASoIaF, I was scum. So clearly, that's not a good indication of how I generally act as town. In Points, I was killed N1(or maybe it was N2, I don't remember), killed by a scum because he was convinced that my plan would ensure an overwhelming town victory. Whether or not this is true is heavily debatable, but that part is irrelevant. And Hats is also not a valid example. You're really giving the lie to yourself, over something that really does not mean anything. To be fair, it's possible that you're just 'in too deep', so to speak.
You can stop with the fake-comforting insinuations now. I hyperlinked three of the more memorable and recent games to me. This does not mean I read only three games. You want a list?
Points Mafia. Song of Ice and Fire Mafia. 24 Mafia. RTK Mafia. Stratego Mafia. Blood Moon Mafia. Sin City Mafia. TV Mafia. And, most recently, Rurouni Kenshin Mafia.
I don't do research by half measures. If I did, I wouldn't be published.
On to RafK, who is acting uncharacteristically illogical.
That, and the more "scum" point was that if DC is a gimmick then he's lying about not being a gimmick. He wasn't being called scum just for being a gimmick, but because people thought he was lying about it. He wasn't being called scum for not liking Cyan, but rather because the opinions he gave on Cyan's play in this game were and still are inconsistent.
See above, re: gimmick =/= scum. Lying about gimmick (which I am, again, emphatically not doing) =/= scum. Entire debate = distracting and useless.
I'd like to question exactly what's so inconsistent about (1) I don't like Cyan's playstyle and (2) I can't say anything about him because (until the post I answer above) he refused to provide any real points, and has consistently failed to field said points even when asked for clarification, as I did in #72 (question 1, for reference), and which he has, to this moment, to this day, made no attempt to answer or even address.
Any set of arguments this early in the game, like krowzy's, are going to have weak spots to counterattack, but DC has felt the need to do quite a lot of strawmanning at the same time. I don't like it.
Pot, this is kettle. You apparently live in a glass house.
krowzy's arguments were beyond 'weak' -- they were blatant misrepresentations for the purpose of making my arguments look bad and myself 'scummy'. I do believe that's the textbook definition of 'strawman'. And I wasn't going to let that slide -- and given the tone of the last few pages, forgive me if I wasn't about to trust to the ability of the town to see through his arguments.
@draygn_mage: ....throwing around false trails, as a sign of 'giving up' to the 'inevitable lynch'. At 4-5 votes (at the time). When it's 15 to lynch. Riiiiight.
Also, a nitpick -- I haven't said, at this point, 'X is town' or 'Y is town'. This is day 1, and barring a night 0 investigative role, no one should ever be sure anyone is town. (And not even with an investigative role, IMO.)
@tanarin: Not a gimmick, and not a puppet. Believe it or not. -_o
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Alright, I go away for a day and can only read and I come back and see a whole bunch of activity. Anyway here we go...
Wuffles_II wagon: Well I haven't played enough with Wuffles to know for sure if this is how he reacts as town, but in my experience and has been said before overreaction is not in and of itself a tell. While even I got on his case for the bandwagon comment, I don't think the fuss it caused was THAT worth it as it has gotten us nowhere with him. The only thing it has achieved is possibly making him look bad if this is in fact how he acts as town.
Zionite Wagon: Ok...WTH was going on here? That has to be the worse logic I have seen for a wagon in a while. I am glad that Cyan cut that one before it got out of hand because I think we all know there are PLENTY of reasons he may forgot there was a N0, and not because he has a kill. Hell, I can think we can all think of reasons that don't involve him being scum that he may of slipped like that.
FoS: Bat, AH, and Wuffles
DC Wagon: Now here is an interesting one. He claims to be completely new, yet acts like he has plenty of experience. Now, he may just be a damn good reader and picked up very quickly on people's play styles, but I am doubting that myself as he has a damn good read on Cyan it appears. So where does that leave us? In my mind there are one of two possibilities here.
A) He is a gimmick of someone who would rather have a fair shake at things as opposed to being meta'ed D1. If this is the case then there is no case on voting him unless you really think him lying about being a gimmick is that bad. I personally think this may be the case.
B) We have some funny stuff going on. Now what do I mean by that? Well I don't want to throw too much speculation here but this may be something similar to Suth's Role in ASoFaI. If this is the case then the question becomes is he the puppet or the master?
My Wagon: My big problem here is the fact that fadebot hasn't answered The question asked of him. In fact the only person to give anyreason on voting me was dattebayo. So I'll ask fadebot again and Suth the first time, why are you voting me?
FoS: Fadebot and Suth until we get an answer from them.
I think that about covers most of how I feel about what I missed...There's just SO MANY PEOPLE!!!
Also, a nitpick -- I haven't said, at this point, 'X is town' or 'Y is town'.
Indeed not, you seem to prefer offering opinions on who is scum. Since you claim to have read upwards of 500 pages of past games you're presumably aware that pointing fingers whilst on defence is generally not a recipe for survival.
(Aside: "Published" eh? That would explain it. Are you a novelist? Or is this something more journalistic?)
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<Limited Clan>
Or maybe you should let things run their course for now.
I'll agree that Tanarin's "wagon" seemed to come out of left field (Since there are tons going on with Dc and what seems to be several players lol). I guess we can wait to hear from you when you feel we get "off course".
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@DC- you wanted to know what caught my eye. I told you. I freely admit that I don't have concrete evidence and that I'm just playing my hunches. Its the way I play.
Part of my reluctance to join the wagon in the first place stemmed from my own take on the FOS post that shaped my future perspectives on his posts, but Raf pointed out what was wrong with that. And his last few posts (e.g. 241) seem markedly insincere and sarcastic, which hasn't shown in his previous posts, suggesting being accused is getting to him. That's not a townie reaction, unless the player is loran or Xyre.
Part of my reluctance to join the wagon in the first place stemmed from my own take on the FOS post that shaped my future perspectives on his posts, but Raf pointed out what was wrong with that. And his last few posts (e.g. 241) seem markedly insincere and sarcastic, which hasn't shown in his previous posts, suggesting being accused is getting to him. That's not a townie reaction, unless the player is loran or Xyre.
Part of my reluctance to join the wagon in the first place stemmed from my own take on the FOS post that shaped my future perspectives on his posts, but Raf pointed out what was wrong with that. And his last few posts (e.g. 241) seem markedly insincere and sarcastic, which hasn't shown in his previous posts, suggesting being accused is getting to him. That's not a townie reaction, unless the player is loran or Xyre.
What about his posts was insincere or sarcastic?
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Level 1 Judge
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Vote Descoures.
All that stuff in quotes in 157 was my text. Huh, no wonder no one responded.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
The second paragraph, I didn't understand at all.
He asked why the FOS, and if it was serious. I told him why -- possibility of rushing the town into mistaken wagons before everyone's even looked in -- and said 'not that serious yet'. Questions were asked, and answered.
Also, null tell to you. Not necessarily null tell to me.
Don't take words out of context. #66 quotes WoD as saying he might remove his vote on Wuffles if he sees a 'random vote... an OMGUS is good too'. To which I said 'technically he OMGUSed me' -- a clear reference to #44, which contains the line 'OMGUS IGMEOY desCoures'.
Don't misrepresent me, either. Perhaps I didn't make it quite obvious enough, but the vote was for perceived avoidance tactics on Wuffles's part -- e.g. #61, which contains dismissal ('Whatever'), ad hominem disguised as mafia theory ('...really, really bad at this game anyways') and a mixture of both of the above with reference to Stormblind's initial vote on him.
Fair enough. It's your prerogative to 'like' or 'dislike' my explanation. I do find it interesting that you apparently don't find AH to be fishing, but you do think I was.
I do not like Cyan. I do not like Cyan's playstyle. None of this would have stopped me from giving a proper, logical reply had his post contained something other than 'he's scummy'.
Nor were the questions 'irrelevant'. Mafia requires that you collect a mental map of reactions and relationships between members of the ostensible town, none of which you can put together without questions. And even should you not wish to concede this point, there is no way you can possibly construe the first question, which a direct query to Cyan as to exactly what he found 'scummy' about the post he references, to be 'irrelevant'.
A final theoretical point. So someone pops up, throws an accusation with no real support behind it, and then blips back below the surface. Do you not question him?
There are 40 posts between #87 and #127, and 82 between #45 and #127. Is it inconceivable that further responses from tanarin in between either pair of said posts might have had an effect on my opinion of him? Or am I expected to go 'he's scum', 'yeah, he's scum', 'scum scum scum' like some kind of miniature George Bush?
I remember Cyan's playstyle so very clearly because, in the games I read as research, they were usually the most frustrating part of the day to trawl through. His playstyle is... hard to forget. Even when one might want to.
And I disagree with your meta on Wuffles. He does overreact occasionally, but almost always with good reason -- a dayvig shooting suddenly, thinking he had been speedlynched, etc. etc. Not near the start of day 1. And this overreaction usually takes the form of open confrontation, not avoidance.
Yes, it was largely unjustified in the context of this game. Your point? I'm neither denying that, nor making a big deal out of it. This is a horribly weak reason to suspect someone. Might as well throw suspicion on anyone who says anything bad about Tilde's play, for example.
I am interested to hear what other possibilities you think there may be. Barring some extreme original role, I don't see any other possibilities beyond SK and town.
...this one is just so far out in Misrep Land that I have to quote my own post:
Reason for suspicion on bateleur: The way he seems to be retroactively justifying a dead krap logick wagon.
Opinion of those who jumped on said wagon: Scummy. (This means AH, Wuffles, and Roja, by the by.)
Reason for shifting vote to bateleur: Because Wuffles at least admits the wagon was based on bad logic, while bateleur appears to still be proverbially flogging the dead horse, for no potential gain to town.
Theory: Everyone already knows I am suspicious of Wuffles, and why, although you may or may not agree. Removing my vote is not going to change that in the immediate future. Placing my vote on bateleur will draw attention to him, which is what I felt was needed. Capische? Itemized enough to forestall further 'creative interpretation'?
I don't like your language in that last one, by the way. It seems couched primarily to make me look worse -- 'admits Wuffles is scummy'? Of course I 'admit' Wuffles is scummy, it's only been the entire gist of the posts you list above that. And aren't you implying in your 'summaries' of said posts that you don't think he's scummy?
....so let me get this straight. You're suspicious of me -- and voting me -- essentially for the following reasons:
1. You don't agree with my reasoning.
2. I have a personal opinion on Cyan.
3. You think I'm a gimmick.
.....
For 2, fine. I probably did go over the top on that one, and said as much. But newsflash on the other two -- for 1, everyone has different reasoning, regardless of whether they're scum or town. Being suspicious of someone for disagreeing with you is tantamount to saying 'he doesn't think the way I do! He must be scum!' If you disagree with someone's reasoning, you debate/argue/discuss it with them -- that's kind of what this game is supposed to be about. And for 3, I could repeat ad nauseam that I'm not a gimmick, but apparently that will do nothing for at least a couple months or so. So be it. But even if I were a gimmick, that would have absolutely no bearing on my alignment. At all.
Need proof? Didn't loran run a gimmick in a fairly recent game, where he lied rather egregiously to try and cover said gimmick? He was town, wasn't he?
Hmmmm?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I'll take another look at AH later.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
If you'll note, I did indeed respond to what was inside the quote box. See #161.
@RafK: To repeat what I said earlier -- Minineko and I are both signed up for Berserk Mafia as well. Together with a host of others, including a number of others that seem to have single-digit post counts as well. So are we all gimmicks?
@draygn_mage: 'Vibe' doesn't cut it. Reasons?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Oh, it's like that is it?
Unvote
Vote: desCoures
That's not intended to draw attention to you, by the way. It's intended to lynch scum. I hear it's a good use for a vote.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
...this makes me feel like I should say something, but this once I am completely -- utterly -- at a loss for words.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I do, however, want to address one thing:
This is classic misrepresentation, and in a very obvious anti-town fashion. The ppoint is not how many posts you have, or how many people are signed up for Berserk Mafia that have similar post counts. The point is that you have repeatedly used statements/sentiments that would simply not be used by a new player. Not even one that read a few games.
And incidentally, the games that you mentioned don't really matchup with your attack on my mentality. In ASoIaF, I was scum. So clearly, that's not a good indication of how I generally act as town. In Points, I was killed N1(or maybe it was N2, I don't remember), killed by a scum because he was convinced that my plan would ensure an overwhelming town victory. Whether or not this is true is heavily debatable, but that part is irrelevant. And Hats is also not a valid example. You're really giving the lie to yourself, over something that really does not mean anything. To be fair, it's possible that you're just 'in too deep', so to speak.
I'll admit that I haven't read everything as thoroughly as I'd like so far, but I'm not quite understanding why bat thinks that Zionite is likely to be scum, when mafia are among the most likely players to have realized there was a night last night. Making the argument that a scum could have failed to notice does nothing to improve this case, unless you can show that a scum is more likely to have failed to notice than a townie, which is obviously false. That is the only point against him, isn't it?
I'd even go so far as to say that Cyan's comment on the scum's knowledge of this point is a tell against Cyan (though an obviously minor one). It's very easy to want to use information as scum to make yourself look particularly observant and helpful, especially when there's a good chance that it won't make any difference, like here. Especially for a player like Cyan, who has a known tendency not to check his facts before giving them, the fact that he put the facts together first seems somewhat more likely to happen as scum than as town.
Still doing some study, though. I'll have more thoughts later.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Vote WufflesII
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Anyway, even if DC is a gimmick, I still think its null. Even more, his mild nature in this game leads me to think he's more on the town side anyway.
Bat: Am I still scum? And if yes, are their reasons other than me forgetting about N0?
So you're asserting...what, exactly? That before the game started, Wuffles and I secretly decided to just attack DC? What if he had not provided adequate reason for me to attack him in the first place? Would I just make something up and hope it works out for the best? I mean..honestly. I have no idea what you're saying. Do YOU even know what you are saying?
Blatant misrepresentation. Did you even read my post? Ignoring suspicion is not what made Zionite suspicious. It just did nothing to lessen my initial suspicion. bateleur has something. Everyone should pay attention.
I am curious, though, about Bateleur saying that Zionite went back and corrected himself later, I'm not sure what this is in reference to.
That's a bit OMGUS isn't it? FOS bat
That, and the more "scum" point was that if DC is a gimmick then he's lying about not being a gimmick. He wasn't being called scum just for being a gimmick, but because people thought he was lying about it. He wasn't being called scum for not liking Cyan, but rather because the opinions he gave on Cyan's play in this game were and still are inconsistent.
Any set of arguments this early in the game, like krowzy's, are going to have weak spots to counterattack, but DC has felt the need to do quite a lot of strawmanning at the same time. I don't like it.
Before people jump you for the night communication part (which is silly), looking for people who seem to be working together is not a bad way to go scum hunting, they don't need to night communicate to do that.
I don't think it's true in this specific case, though.
Where the hell did you get "coordinated" from?!?!
* Wuffles_II hits Tilde with the Stupid Stick(TM) *
Pointing out that that just screams laziness to me, I wonder why Sutherlands couldn't think of something useful or substantial to make a post of?
Anyways, at this point I think DC is still more than a gimmick, given the amount of dust it's raised and the fact he's trying to stay far away from it now that he's looking better he still gets my number 1 suspicion...
Or he could be scum seeing if the wagon is ripe to jump on, but knowing suther, its likely the first.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I don't buy this. Firstly, this is actually WIFOM, and Second, because I've seen newb (which he claims to be) scum act way scummier than lay some unwarranted FoSes and then later double back and say "oh I was just looking for reactions".
Wuffles_II wagon: Well I haven't played enough with Wuffles to know for sure if this is how he reacts as town, but in my experience and has been said before overreaction is not in and of itself a tell. While even I got on his case for the bandwagon comment, I don't think the fuss it caused was THAT worth it as it has gotten us nowhere with him. The only thing it has achieved is possibly making him look bad if this is in fact how he acts as town.
Zionite Wagon: Ok...WTH was going on here? That has to be the worse logic I have seen for a wagon in a while. I am glad that Cyan cut that one before it got out of hand because I think we all know there are PLENTY of reasons he may forgot there was a N0, and not because he has a kill. Hell, I can think we can all think of reasons that don't involve him being scum that he may of slipped like that.
FoS: Bat, AH, and Wuffles
DC Wagon: Now here is an interesting one. He claims to be completely new, yet acts like he has plenty of experience. Now, he may just be a damn good reader and picked up very quickly on people's play styles, but I am doubting that myself as he has a damn good read on Cyan it appears. So where does that leave us? In my mind there are one of two possibilities here.
A) He is a gimmick of someone who would rather have a fair shake at things as opposed to being meta'ed D1. If this is the case then there is no case on voting him unless you really think him lying about being a gimmick is that bad. I personally think this may be the case.
B) We have some funny stuff going on. Now what do I mean by that? Well I don't want to throw too much speculation here but this may be something similar to Suth's Role in ASoFaI. If this is the case then the question becomes is he the puppet or the master?
My Wagon: My big problem here is the fact that fadebot hasn't answered The question asked of him. In fact the only person to give any reason on voting me was dattebayo. So I'll ask fadebot again and Suth the first time, why are you voting me?
FoS: Fadebot and Suth until we get an answer from them.
I think that about covers most of how I feel about what I missed...There's just SO MANY PEOPLE!!!
* tanarin head explodes!
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Mafia don't have any reason to stick their necks out in the open. And I don't think he's a newb.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Do you realize DC said it was his first game in the signup thread? So while it's still possible he's lying, it can't possibly be an alignment tell. The fact you've tried (twice) to push this non-tell doesn't sit well with me.
Before or after the PMs went out?
No, I hadn't realised that.
Completely true.
The defence would like to ask how many posts it took in the recently concluded Points Mafia for andelijah and cp to dance in a rainstorm wearing copper armor and yelling "All Gods are bastards!".
Scum often can't stop themselves doing something daft on day 1, a fact of which I like to take full advantage. I reckon the town hitrate on this site overall on day 1 is actually better than day 2 or day 3 on this site, it's not just me personally.
That's true, I suppose.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
An answer to what question? I'm pretty sure you know why I'm voting you.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Several posts before this, you state you 'agree with much of what krowzy had to say'. I can take this to mean (given, you know, the absolute lack of any other reasoning from you) that your reasons for placing suspicion on me are much the same as krowzy's. And here you say I 'responded well' to krowzy's PBPA (and I use the 'A' here very loosely), by which you seem to acknowledge that I basically showed what few arguments of his were valid to have absolutely no relevance to my alignment in this game.
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
Re: my response to krowzy, particularly the bit about gimmick or not-gimmick, regardless of which being the case, being totally irrelevant as to alignment. I'd also love to know just how this is 'anti-town', given that I state nothing to do with the town in this game, I am not using it to point suspicion at anyone, and the point itself is -- again -- one completely irrelevant to the alignment of people in a game of Mafia.
You can stop with the fake-comforting insinuations now. I hyperlinked three of the more memorable and recent games to me. This does not mean I read only three games. You want a list?
Points Mafia. Song of Ice and Fire Mafia. 24 Mafia. RTK Mafia. Stratego Mafia. Blood Moon Mafia. Sin City Mafia. TV Mafia. And, most recently, Rurouni Kenshin Mafia.
I don't do research by half measures. If I did, I wouldn't be published.
On to RafK, who is acting uncharacteristically illogical.
See above, re: gimmick =/= scum. Lying about gimmick (which I am, again, emphatically not doing) =/= scum. Entire debate = distracting and useless.
I'd like to question exactly what's so inconsistent about (1) I don't like Cyan's playstyle and (2) I can't say anything about him because (until the post I answer above) he refused to provide any real points, and has consistently failed to field said points even when asked for clarification, as I did in #72 (question 1, for reference), and which he has, to this moment, to this day, made no attempt to answer or even address.
Pot, this is kettle. You apparently live in a glass house.
krowzy's arguments were beyond 'weak' -- they were blatant misrepresentations for the purpose of making my arguments look bad and myself 'scummy'. I do believe that's the textbook definition of 'strawman'. And I wasn't going to let that slide -- and given the tone of the last few pages, forgive me if I wasn't about to trust to the ability of the town to see through his arguments.
@draygn_mage: ....throwing around false trails, as a sign of 'giving up' to the 'inevitable lynch'. At 4-5 votes (at the time). When it's 15 to lynch. Riiiiight.
Also, a nitpick -- I haven't said, at this point, 'X is town' or 'Y is town'. This is day 1, and barring a night 0 investigative role, no one should ever be sure anyone is town. (And not even with an investigative role, IMO.)
@tanarin: Not a gimmick, and not a puppet. Believe it or not. -_o
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Really? I mean...really?
Unvote, Vote Tanarin
I prefer not to think in such black and white terms. But yes, I still think your post was very suspicious, as was your subsequent defence.
It's a reference to this post by Zionite.
Indeed not, you seem to prefer offering opinions on who is scum. Since you claim to have read upwards of 500 pages of past games you're presumably aware that pointing fingers whilst on defence is generally not a recipe for survival.
(Aside: "Published" eh? That would explain it. Are you a novelist? Or is this something more journalistic?)
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I'll agree that Tanarin's "wagon" seemed to come out of left field (Since there are tons going on with Dc and what seems to be several players lol). I guess we can wait to hear from you when you feel we get "off course".
Though, I liked your glasshouse comment, DC.
Wuffles_II (5) - Stormblind, WoD, Zionite, Alx2, Tilde
DesCoures (4) - krowzy, Dragyn_Mage, loran16, bateleur
tanarin (4) - Sutherlands, Dattebayo, Fadeblue, Cyan
bateleur (1) - DesCoures
loran16 (1) - cunningfox
Zionite (1) - Abandon Hope
With way too many (28) alive, it is way too many (15) to lynch.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Vote krowzy.
[The Family]
Part of my reluctance to join the wagon in the first place stemmed from my own take on the FOS post that shaped my future perspectives on his posts, but Raf pointed out what was wrong with that. And his last few posts (e.g. 241) seem markedly insincere and sarcastic, which hasn't shown in his previous posts, suggesting being accused is getting to him. That's not a townie reaction, unless the player is loran or Xyre.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Actually, scratch that on loran. My bad.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
What about his posts was insincere or sarcastic?
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
for example.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia