Grim: I'm pretty sure the FL thing is just Loran & ariminaes being dumb about something that isn't a strong scum tell and the people who sided with them later are being opportunistic. As such, FOS MMOD and JodoYodo, more so the later.
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Analysis: FL is characterized by three things - the acronyms, his wagon-sitting, and his defense.
The former is the most townish, as a scum wouldn't champion such a plan when he recognized how disadvantageous it would be. However, this is an imperfect explanation; it could simply be that he decided his claim was strong enough that he could acronym it now.
The second is very interesting, especially in its association with the third. He points out what players do that is suspicious for both andelijah and Grim, but then fails to follow through, justifying himself along the way. This is clinical fence-sitting and suggests an unwillingness to commit. This, of course, seems to conflict with his acronym suggestion, which makes it even more interesting in my mind because it's anomalous.
The third is amusing, because he strikes me as rather defensive in his last few posts. For example, 240:
So my offence is just fence sitting? I can live with that.
But yeah, I'm not refuting your opinion, I'm just saying I don't agree with it. Just because I don't vote, doesn't mean I'm not doing anything. I'd be fence sitting if I just barned what other people said and while the andelijah thing might be considered a barn (even though I did add new content), the grimclaw one was not.
I just thought that the backpedal didn't warrant a vote. As I thought that andelijah's post didn't warrant a vote either due to benefit of doubt.
1) Dismisses the claim against him as insignificant.
2) Says "I'm not refuting you, I'm just disagreeing" - which is in itself argumentative fence-sitting.
3) Misunderstands what fence-sitting is when he says the red part.
4) Continues to justify himself.
This to me is a clear sign of him recognizing the hole he's dug himself, which makes me comfortable with additional pressure. I haven't read any games he's played in, so I don't know if this is systemic, but it does seem to warrant additional research.
Analysis: FL is characterized by three things - the acronyms, his wagon-sitting, and his defense.
The former is the most townish, as a scum wouldn't champion such a plan when he recognized how disadvantageous it would be. However, this is an imperfect explanation; it could simply be that he decided his claim was strong enough that he could acronym it now.
The second is very interesting, especially in its association with the third. He points out what players do that is suspicious for both andelijah and Grim, but then fails to follow through, justifying himself along the way. This is clinical fence-sitting and suggests an unwillingness to commit. This, of course, seems to conflict with his acronym suggestion, which makes it even more interesting in my mind because it's anomalous.
The third is amusing, because he strikes me as rather defensive in his last few posts. For example, 240:
1) Dismisses the claim against him as insignificant.
2) Says "I'm not refuting you, I'm just disagreeing" - which is in itself argumentative fence-sitting.
3) Misunderstands what fence-sitting is when he says the red part.
4) Continues to justify himself.
This to me is a clear sign of him recognizing the hole he's dug himself, which makes me comfortable with additional pressure. I haven't read any games he's played in, so I don't know if this is systemic, but it does seem to warrant additional research.
More later.
I think Xyre did a good analysis here. Especially on the last part regarding defensiveness. I wanted to mention this but couldn't find a way to do it well.
My vote stands. Nothing that FL has said has changed my opinion on him. In fact, while trying to dig himself out he's digging himself deeper to me.
Haven't checked the facts of the case myself, but:
Also, you are sounding a bit of a hypocrite when you said I did nothing except those three things. I have contributed to the game much more than you have, since you have posted little and only started posting a lot just now, to smear me.
It's question period! One thought-provoking question per player, to keep it fair. Please answer!
1.DYH: What’s your acronym?
2.Armlx: Are you always that aggressive?
3.CropCircles: Of all the people to barn, why armlx?
4.Faerie Lord: Did you realize you’re the top poster in this game? Is this a good or a bad sign?
5.Arimnaes: Did you realize you’re the bottom poster in this game? Is this a good or a bad sign?
6.Grimclaw: You previously said you overreacted. What would be a “normal” reaction?
7.Zchinque: I think you’ve been an utterly useless lurker so far, a dead weight. How does this claim make you feel?
8.andelijah: You’re obviously town in this game, right? Riiight? Or at least you’re going to say you are. That’s not a question, that’s a prelude. The question is: if you were scum, what would you have done differently in this game so far?
9.Loran: Where are the famous Loran scumtells? Is it possible you’re actually town here?
10.Diggy: Do you like the colo(u)r Red?
11.BigTime: What do you think of Dagger?
12.CPE: Would you say that giving you a post restriction to misattribute quotes is the epitome of irony? Hypothetically speaking, of course. I would have no idea whether you have such restriction or not.
13.Fairy of Speed: What’s your draft date?
14.MMOD: Would you say post 251 constitutes a passive-aggressive stance toward the FL-wagon, along with post-count-padding?
15.Jobie: Who’s scum?
16.Dagger: Please elaborate why BigTime’s reasoning in voting GC was “totally wrong”?
17.TFF: What, in your opinion, would be a reasonable claim-range on day 1 in this game?
18.JodoYodo: Choose one of your posts that’s been totally not scummy and showcase it as evidence you’re not scum, please.
19.Goatrevolt: I’m having some difficulty thinking up a question for you. Why do you think that is, and would you mind making one for me instead?
20.GiftsTrix: in 206, why did you “Unvote” instead of “Unvote <name>”?
21.Ged: If you could know for sure the alignment of one of the players you claimed to watch, who would it be?
22.Xyre: I would like you to answer one of the questions in this post that’s not directed at you. Pick any one you like.
23.Everyone: There’s one player missing here (other than myself, of course). Can you tell who he is w/o referring to the player list?
24.The missing player (hopefully you know who you are): Define “fence-sitting” in the context of Mafia.
21.Ged: If you could know for sure the alignment of one of the players you claimed to watch, who would it be?
23.Everyone: There’s one player missing here (other than myself, of course). Can you tell who he is w/o referring to the player list?
I'd learn Grimclaw's alignment. If he's scum, good times are had. If he's town, analyzing the wagon on him becomes a lot easier (as does analyzing TFF's vote, and the mini-wagon on him).
8.andelijah: You’re obviously town in this game, right? Riiight? Or at least you’re going to say you are. That’s not a question, that’s a prelude. The question is: if you were scum, what would you have done differently in this game so far?
I would have had at least one full case out there by now, or at least have been working on one.
23.Everyone: There’s one player missing here (other than myself, of course). Can you tell who he is w/o referring to the player list?
Yes.
And so you don't feel left out:
25. Alx: About how much time have you spent trying to work out peoples' codes?
Passive-aggressive? I don't think I'm being passive aggressive. I've pointed out two parts of posts so far, that I've found scummy, and I'm planning on combing through Xyre's case. Passive-aggressive to me, at this stage, would've been simply agreeing and voting.
I don't really think it's post-count padding. I posted because I wanted people to know Xyre's case and FL's response to the case wasn't a factor in my continued-voting since I don't have time atm to go over it, as well as to point out part of it that I thought scummy. (What I quoted is technically part of the case reply, but you get what I'm saying when I saw FL's response)
23: No, I couldn't (spent a couple minutes thinking). Once I looked it seemed obvious though.
9.Loran: Where are the famous Loran scumtells? Is it possible you’re actually town here?
Well the famous one is huge overreaction to opposing questioning, and being antsy. (Which imo, has gotten into bigtime's head as a general scumtell, since it's so well known for me).
That said, i did skate by the most recent newb game as scum. So maybe i've eliminated that obvious scumtell.
But I'm town here.
23.Everyone: There’s one player missing here (other than myself, of course). Can you tell who he is w/o referring to the player list?
.
Yes, yes i can.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I certainly don't see how I'm being scummy. My item plan was bad, and I didn't realize I was fishing when asking about CPE's thing, but I attribute this to poor play, not scumminess. I'm reading FL as scum and I haven't been seeing any improvement either.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
@Xyre. Please tell me what you think the term fence-sitting means
Fence-sitting is the policy of taking a moderate position on an argument, or a neutral position, or taking an aggressive position but then following through with a passive response.
To me it means, posting something though not voting because you don't want to make your self dirty (as in not pitching in the action, so that people can't point their finger at you if you're incorrect)
This is a form of it. It is scummy, in my book.
Also, please do read other games I started in (not replaced. My play is very different when I replace). I rarely vote. I just leave mental notes to myself along the way, to remind me what I found suspicious and other stuff that I might find relevant as I rescroll through the game.
It doesn't have to do with the voting so much as you saying "I find X scummy... but that's alright with me." The vote would reinforce the point, but the last sentence, where you basically hedge your bets, makes you scummy.
@The four points
Note that these points were merely observations to prove your defensiveness.
1)I honestly think that fence sitting, by my definition, is a null tell, especially this early in the game. That's why I said, I can live with that. Because I sincerely think it's a no tell.
Good for you. Clearly, I disagree with you and see it as dismissive.
2)We disagree about the meaning of fence sitting. Saying you disagree with someone is not fence sitting
Consider the two definitions at the top of this post. Yours, in my mind, is only a small shred of all fence-sitting examples. Or, simply put, you're minimizing the impact of fence sitting by association. That's like saying "Because Mother Theresa worked in Calcutta, all people in Calcutta are saints."
3)Explained above
And again.
4)Really nothing to answer here
Really? I think there is. If I didn't, I wouldn't have included it.
Also, I love how you just dismiss the claim thing as something I knew would be strong so I just played along when I suggested a soft claim in the first hand (and only because I never saw acronym claims before, because that would have been my first choice)
Could you explain this?
@Wagon-sitting. Ande only had Grim and TFF on him, while Grim had none at that point. (except ande whom he attacked). So saying i was wagon sitting is incorrect.
What?
Also, you are sounding a bit of a hypocrite when you said I did nothing except those three things. I have contributed to the game much more than you have, since you have posted little and only started posting a lot just now, to smear me.
See, that's the point, though.
Yes, you outnumber me in terms of posts. But do note the summaries I provided of your posts. At least half of your posts are either random votes, inconsequential ramblings, or explanations of acronym things. So, when you dismiss my case saying "I'm more prolific than you", I have to disagree.
Furthermore, the number of posts made is always unimportant, compared to the value of those posts. I can name a few players who post a ton and are completely useless when it comes to hard analysis.
Furthermore, you proceed to ad-hom me. Your use of terminology like "smear" and your accusation that I'm only posting because I have a grudge is completely unfair to this kind of discussion, creates a dichotomization between us, and serves to dismiss every useful point I've made, which kills debate.
Nice job, scum. You've proved my point. Vote Faerie Lord
Quote from Alx2 »
22.Xyre: I would like you to answer one of the questions in this post that’s not directed at you. Pick any one you like.
Well done. You've reaffirmed by belief that you're incapable of listening.
19.Goatrevolt: I’m having some difficulty thinking up a question for you. Why do you think that is, and would you mind making one for me instead?
I'm having deja vu. Miller's Crossing Mafia comes to mind. As for why you aren't able to think of a question for me, again I don't really know why that is. My guess would be because I don't have a large volume of posts for you to pull from.
As per your request, here's a question for you (andelijah jumped the gun): How did you feel about us starting the crypto-claims prior to finding out the results of your test ones and whether they were easy to solve?
17.TFF: What, in your opinion, would be a reasonable claim-range on day 1 in this game?
I think 10 votes would be a good time to fill in our cryptoclaim, maybe 9 depending on how much additional non-vote suspicion has been expressed. Why do I get the boring question?
23. Does looking at my notes count? -Because I couldn't pick out the missing one from just the questions list.
TFF, Dagger, Bigtime, MMOD and Xyre from scummiest to least. All but BT have thrown scum tells, with TFF and Dagger giving off some good ones. MMOD and Xyre have given me extremely minor tells. Bigtime hasn't given any tells but my gut is telling me something isn't quite right.
Faerie Lord is play extremely bad, but I can't decide if it's because he's scum or because I'm not used to his playstyle. (Since, he got modkilled for lurking in my game, where I received good insight on playstyle, I can't be a good judge). I would like to hear a claim from him and will join the wagon. Unvote, Vote: Faerie Lord
@Jodo: It's possible that I didn't phrase your question clearly enough:
No you phrased the question quite clearly, I'm saying that my posts aren't scummy. However, your carefully worded questions designed to entrap people are interesting. Is this town looking to entrap scum, or scum looking to fish out an unwitting townie victim?
You guys are going too slow. I'm setting a deadline for tomorrow.:mad:
Is this for real? Or April Fool's?
Because that seems a bit harsh given the relative newness still of the game, and I don't think the pace is bad at all.
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
So, this FL bandwagon is getting pretty huge pretty quickly.
I didn't see much credence in it until the reaction by FL, which was, in a word, scummy.
Still, the really quick bandwagon doesn't give me the greatest feelings about everyone latching on just by saying, I agree.
-Alpha
That is what I assume you would define it as, since there is nary another reason to bring it up.
I define fence-sitting in a mafia context as not committing yourself to a particular side, but pointing out the respective attractiveness of each.
So, using that definition, here is why what I said is not fence-sitting.
1.) I didn't lack commitment to the issue of FL, I said that before his response to attacks on him, he didn't seem scummy, but certainly did afterward.
That is committing to the fact the he looked scummy.
2.) Perhaps the wording I chose to follow that observation up with made it seem like looking at the attractiveness of 2 sides, but after choosing my position on FL's scumminess, I said that the wagoners are still suspicious in their own right, as it is an age-old (if not slightly overplayed/outdated) scum tell.
Not fence-sitting, as it's not the same issue.
Of course, if you aren't talking about that incident, regard those reasonings.
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
As per your request, here's a question for you (andelijah jumped the gun): How did you feel about us starting the crypto-claims prior to finding out the results of your test ones and whether they were easy to solve?
My examples were basically fluff. It could have been useful for more people to weigh in on them, but not critical.
@andelijah: I presume you are refering to the mason-outing incident in KF. Let's just say I learned a lesson not to engage in behaviors of this sort just for the sake of proving how smart I am.
So essentially, you agree with the idea that Grim is scummy on all the same issues, you just prefer to define your terms differently. Misrepresenting and throwing dirt over nothing sound like the definition of an overreaction to me.
Funny too, cause up until you voted me, you were still voting Grim.
But it is different.
Misrepresenting and throwing dirt signify a deliberate blatant attack on a player with weak often-flawed basis supporting it, designed to weaken a player's position. That is scummy.
Overreaction is acting excessively over what can be perceived as a minor issue. That is not necessarily scummy.
GC gave a reasonable explanation. Yours not so. Therefore, my vote switched.
I also approve of the Grimclaw train, for blatent overreaction over a hypothetical situation.
Vote Grimclaw
He got all up in arms over Ande claiming to know FAKE roles, correct? I'm not reading this wrong?
He cited "blatant overreaction over a hypothetical situation" with "got all up in arms over Ande claiming to know fake roles" as a supporting basis. The cited phrase is not really a scumtell, even less so in conjunction with a hypothetical situation. And the supporting basis feels entirely too much tacked on to make real sense.
12.CPE: Would you say that giving you a post restriction to misattribute quotes is the epitome of irony? Hypothetically speaking, of course. I would have no idea whether you have such restriction or not.
23.Everyone: There’s one player missing here (other than myself, of course). Can you tell who he is w/o referring to the player list?
No, Assuming I had this hypothetical post restriction, I would not say it is the epitome of irony, but knowing me, you will yell at me after the game.
@23: No clue, then again I diddnt look hard and am in a hurry, maybe I will get back to this question tommorrow.
Unvote, Vote Big Time.
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<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
@23: No clue, then again I diddnt look hard and am in a hurry, maybe I will get back to this question tommorrow.
Unvote, Vote Big Time.
I'm insulted...but this hurts the most coming from you CPE!
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
11. What do I think of Dagger? Not much. I think he's attacking me for some things he himself has done, which strikes me as scummy. Other than that, I haven't really seen much, but I have been gone all day today, so I will be rereading quite a bit.
23. Without looking at the list, I can't say, but I think I figured it out.
Oh, and Unvote, cause I can't remember if I still had it on there.
@GC: I probably still would have called it an overreaction. I saw it as an overreaction.
Even though overreaction =/= scum, it is a scumtell, especially this early in the game. We barely got over the acronym claiming when, it think it was Ande, made a comment on how he had kinda cracked one of the fake codes. This prompted GC to suddenly point and say SCUM! at Ande.
Honestly, I saw that post as completly innocent and almost ignored it (ande's post).
Point is, I saw GC jumping all over Ande for what appeared to be nothing, and he was basing his vote around one of the least scummy posts made all game, for illogical reasoning. With so little analysis put into the post, and the very short timeframe I saw GC attack being made in, I saw it as scummy.
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Underrated, Overlooked
Thanks to THEY DID WHAT!? For the sweet banner!
Games played:3, 1 ongoing Times Town: 1, with 1 win Times Scum: 1, with 1 loss
Point is, I saw GC jumping all over Ande for what appeared to be nothing, and he was basing his vote around one of the least scummy posts made all game, for illogical reasoning. With so little analysis put into the post, and the very short timeframe I saw GC attack being made in, I saw it as scummy.
EBWODP: Distinguishing between two people and twenty are entirely different things. Power roles are sometimes defined as everyone with a night action, sometimes as everyone who isn't vanilla, and sometimes as the basic cop/doc/tracker/roleblocker set. It leaves alot of openings for other roles.
I'll exchange my vote for a fos though, as I think I overreacted a bit there. Unvote andelijah. FoS andelijah.
Do you mean this explaination? I don't think that his reasoning justifies his vote here. To me, his explanation is neither here nor there. It doesn't make a person scummy or not, the guessing just makes them a little dumb. Finding one or two roles out of twenty is a mighty task, especially with the codes we have. Thing is though, Ande wasen't trying to decode real codes.
His basis for his vote isn't strongly justified in the first place. It's not a great explanition for his actions.
This could be the wrong explaination post. Can you quote the one you are referring to Dagger?
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Underrated, Overlooked
Thanks to THEY DID WHAT!? For the sweet banner!
Games played:3, 1 ongoing Times Town: 1, with 1 win Times Scum: 1, with 1 loss
You are not the type of player that jumps out immediately.
No, he is, just I diddnt look at the list. I just noticed there were questions for loran and FL, honestly the only two people i KNEW were 100% in this game.
Unvote, Vote Alx2
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Quote from hotshizzle »
<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
You are not the type of player that jumps out immediately.
Well, I know I wouldn't quite stand out to you, although I'm working on being more...visible, I guess to the mafia community at large.
CPE though...we have a history.
@Alx - You mind if I ask you a question? I assume you're trying to bring attention to me through the omission. Is it why I think it is, and what is your reaction to my response, previously posted?
-Alpha
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Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Oh, and Unvote, cause I can't remember if I still had it on there.
I do not like this at all. Far too tired to explain perfectly right now, but your whole argument is GC is scum and you unvote him?
Even though overreaction =/= scum, it is a scumtell, especially this early in the game. We barely got over the acronym claiming when, it think it was Ande, made a comment on how he had kinda cracked one of the fake codes. This prompted GC to suddenly point and say SCUM! at Ande.
I can see where GC was coming from with his attack. Scum are much more likely to be deciphering crypto claims.
Also, minor over reaction is not a scum tell. Insanely over reacting is. Attacking people for minor over reactions is blowing something out of proportion to push a lynch, which is a scum tell.
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To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
Do you mean this explaination? I don't think that his reasoning justifies his vote here. To me, his explanation is neither here nor there. It doesn't make a person scummy or not, the guessing just makes them a little dumb. Finding one or two roles out of twenty is a mighty task, especially with the codes we have. Thing is though, Ande wasen't trying to decode real codes.
His basis for his vote isn't strongly justified in the first place. It's not a great explanition for his actions.
This could be the wrong explaination post. Can you quote the one you are referring to Dagger?
Considering I've pointed out that the first portion isn't true, and the second part obviously uses the first to shine some bad light on armlx... what am I misrepresenting exactly? The severity of his transgression maybe? I still think it's a valid scumtell, but not as strong as I took it to be in the first place.
Though in retrospect, you might not see that as an explanation since you were voting GC due to a different reason.
I don't know how to answer that question... Not sure I understand it...
I've been having a bit of IRL trouble lately, so I won't be posting anything particularily insightful. I'll still be reading the thread, and I hope it won't cause any problems. If it doesn't resolve quickly, I'll ask to be replaced.
In case someone does get replaced (me or otherwise), what do we do with that player's crypto claim?
@Alx - You mind if I ask you a question? I assume you're trying to bring attention to me through the omission. Is it why I think it is, and what is your reaction to my response, previously posted?
Bring attention yes, but not necessarily to you. I'm trying to bring attention, in general, to under-the-radar players. A great tool for identifying those is simply to get a pen and paper and write the names of the players in the game in the order they come to mind. Those at the end of the list are under the radar.
Also, to get the town to pay attention. The majority of the players admitted not to recognize you as the missing player. How on earth can they hope to find scum if they don't even know who's in the game!?
As for your reaction, the explanation was too detailed, and somehow worried.
In case someone does get replaced (me or otherwise), what do we do with that player's crypto claim?
That player should contact the mod and ask permission to PM the solution to his acronym to the replacement, I guess. Normally, private communication is a no-no, but sometimes mods allow communications in case of replacement. If permission isn't given, the replacement player should make a new acronym.
Unvote since that was my random one on CropCircles.
I'm curious, CPE, as to why you're voting Alx2 here? While he certainly could be operating under the ruse of a cleverly outspoken scum, that's not the impression I'm getting from him at all. You didn't provide much of an explanation, and considering the current circumstances, this looks like a "safe harbor" for your vote, so that you don't have to commit to the current debates. FoS: CPE
On to that, BigTime looks far worse in the argument than Grimclaw does; he really seems to be reaching to pin a case on GC. Vote: BigTime
The word is not quite "drafted". Actually, I don't know what it is in English, the most accurate translation would probably be "recruited".
Recruitment usually implies it's voluntary, while a draft is not. Compare and contrast, "I recruited to the army" vs. "I was drafted to the army."
Here ends the English lesson. Now, how about that game of mafia?
I'm curious, CPE, as to why you're voting Alx2 here? While he certainly could be operating under the ruse of a cleverly outspoken scum, that's not the impression I'm getting from him at all. You didn't provide much of an explanation, and considering the current circumstances, this looks like a "safe harbor" for your vote, so that you don't have to commit to the current debates. FoS: CPE
While I appreciate the defense, I think you need to examine CPE's posts one by one. Let me know when the penny drops.
First off, I unvoted because I GC isn't really at the top of my scum list at this moment. I am not building a case around GC anyway, I am simply clarifing my previous position on him, and clarifing my vote. I'm not trying to pin a case on him anymore DYH. I clearly unvoted him. Now I am explaning my actions.
What I saw was Ande making analysis on the fake acronyms and GC getting upset for some crazy reason. It was a hypothetical situation, since the rolenames were fake! GC saw this as lies for some reason. I couldn't figure out the Acronyms myself, but it didn't mean that someone else couldn't. I don't know why he thinks Ande was lying. He certinely could have, but he has nothing to gain from it.
Secondly, the fact that it is an overreaction, and has been called an overreaction by several players in the game so far would lead me to believe that my assesment that it is an overreaction is correct.
Most everything after my initial vote is an explanition of that.
I reread you initial vote on Ande, and from what I can see, GC voted him for claiming to know the answers to the fake roles. More specifically, GC tried to explain how this had to be a lie and voted him for that. Lying. I really never saw the lie in Ande's posts, and once again, there is no proof that he was or was not lying. His post of his answers even has a little doubt in there. He made some educated guesses, but he knew he wasen't right on the spot. He wanted to clarify that. Then GC goes and votes him for apparently lying about it all. That's what I saw, that's what caused me to vote GC on the basis of an overreaction over a hypothetical situation.
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The original points against BT were so-so in my opinion, but BT's defence has been pretty scummy, and he looks like he's trying to play the innocent noob defence. I'd vote him if it weren't for the fact that FLs scummier. Slops to DYH for skimming.
Faerie Lord
Random vote
Perpetuating the random vote phase/nonsense
Rejects name claim, supports soft claim
More soft claim
More soft claim, plus acronyms
More acronyms
More acronyms
His acronym
Explains acronyms
Random
Joins in on andelijah's complaining about armlx posting his acronym early
Argues that acronyms are advantageous again
More acronyms
Defends himself against Alx's coaching claim
Rides the fence - points out Grimclaw's error, but notes that there are people who support him (negating its significance)
Rides the fence - points out andelijah's potentially dangerous post, but decides it's nothing
Complains about being voted for
Doesn't get it when I point out why the above is suspicious
Defends his actions
Defends his actions
Refers to something in loran's post
Defends his actions
Analysis: FL is characterized by three things - the acronyms, his wagon-sitting, and his defense.
The former is the most townish, as a scum wouldn't champion such a plan when he recognized how disadvantageous it would be. However, this is an imperfect explanation; it could simply be that he decided his claim was strong enough that he could acronym it now.
The second is very interesting, especially in its association with the third. He points out what players do that is suspicious for both andelijah and Grim, but then fails to follow through, justifying himself along the way. This is clinical fence-sitting and suggests an unwillingness to commit. This, of course, seems to conflict with his acronym suggestion, which makes it even more interesting in my mind because it's anomalous.
The third is amusing, because he strikes me as rather defensive in his last few posts. For example, 240:
1) Dismisses the claim against him as insignificant.
2) Says "I'm not refuting you, I'm just disagreeing" - which is in itself argumentative fence-sitting.
3) Misunderstands what fence-sitting is when he says the red part.
4) Continues to justify himself.
This to me is a clear sign of him recognizing the hole he's dug himself, which makes me comfortable with additional pressure. I haven't read any games he's played in, so I don't know if this is systemic, but it does seem to warrant additional research.
More later.
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I think Xyre did a good analysis here. Especially on the last part regarding defensiveness. I wanted to mention this but couldn't find a way to do it well.
My vote stands. Nothing that FL has said has changed my opinion on him. In fact, while trying to dig himself out he's digging himself deeper to me.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
Makes think my vote is in the right place.
I happen to agree w/ armlx that your reason for joining the GC wagon was pretty weak, and smells of scum waggoning.
Vote BigTime
[The Family]
1.DYH: What’s your acronym?
2.Armlx: Are you always that aggressive?
3.CropCircles: Of all the people to barn, why armlx?
4.Faerie Lord: Did you realize you’re the top poster in this game? Is this a good or a bad sign?
5.Arimnaes: Did you realize you’re the bottom poster in this game? Is this a good or a bad sign?
6.Grimclaw: You previously said you overreacted. What would be a “normal” reaction?
7.Zchinque: I think you’ve been an utterly useless lurker so far, a dead weight. How does this claim make you feel?
8.andelijah: You’re obviously town in this game, right? Riiight? Or at least you’re going to say you are. That’s not a question, that’s a prelude. The question is: if you were scum, what would you have done differently in this game so far?
9.Loran: Where are the famous Loran scumtells? Is it possible you’re actually town here?
10.Diggy: Do you like the colo(u)r Red?
11.BigTime: What do you think of Dagger?
12.CPE: Would you say that giving you a post restriction to misattribute quotes is the epitome of irony? Hypothetically speaking, of course. I would have no idea whether you have such restriction or not.
13.Fairy of Speed: What’s your draft date?
14.MMOD: Would you say post 251 constitutes a passive-aggressive stance toward the FL-wagon, along with post-count-padding?
15.Jobie: Who’s scum?
16.Dagger: Please elaborate why BigTime’s reasoning in voting GC was “totally wrong”?
17.TFF: What, in your opinion, would be a reasonable claim-range on day 1 in this game?
18.JodoYodo: Choose one of your posts that’s been totally not scummy and showcase it as evidence you’re not scum, please.
19.Goatrevolt: I’m having some difficulty thinking up a question for you. Why do you think that is, and would you mind making one for me instead?
20.GiftsTrix: in 206, why did you “Unvote” instead of “Unvote <name>”?
21.Ged: If you could know for sure the alignment of one of the players you claimed to watch, who would it be?
22.Xyre: I would like you to answer one of the questions in this post that’s not directed at you. Pick any one you like.
23.Everyone: There’s one player missing here (other than myself, of course). Can you tell who he is w/o referring to the player list?
24.The missing player (hopefully you know who you are): Define “fence-sitting” in the context of Mafia.
I'd learn Grimclaw's alignment. If he's scum, good times are had. If he's town, analyzing the wagon on him becomes a lot easier (as does analyzing TFF's vote, and the mini-wagon on him).
I would have had at least one full case out there by now, or at least have been working on one.
Yes.
And so you don't feel left out:
25. Alx: About how much time have you spent trying to work out peoples' codes?
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I don't really think it's post-count padding. I posted because I wanted people to know Xyre's case and FL's response to the case wasn't a factor in my continued-voting since I don't have time atm to go over it, as well as to point out part of it that I thought scummy. (What I quoted is technically part of the case reply, but you get what I'm saying when I saw FL's response)
23: No, I couldn't (spent a couple minutes thinking). Once I looked it seemed obvious though.
None at all.
Follow up question: is this a "I haven't had the time" or a "I'm not going to bother" none at all?
Or, another way of asking it, are you ever planning on looking at the codes?
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Well the famous one is huge overreaction to opposing questioning, and being antsy. (Which imo, has gotten into bigtime's head as a general scumtell, since it's so well known for me).
That said, i did skate by the most recent newb game as scum. So maybe i've eliminated that obvious scumtell.
But I'm town here.
Yes, yes i can.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
@#23 I have no idea who is missing.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
More of the latter than the former.
@Jodo: It's possible that I didn't phrase your question clearly enough:
creampuffeater (1): Faerie Lord
mystery meat of doom (1): goatrevolt
CropCircles (1): Disrupt_Your_Hymn
andelijah (1): TheFooFish
loran16 (1): Jobie
Disrupt_Your_Hymn (1): Ged
TheFooFish (2): goatrevolt, Alx2
GiftsTrix (1): creampuffeater
FaerieLord (4): loran16, arimnaes, mystery meat of doom, JodoYodo
Grimclaw (1): BigTime
Ged (1): andelijah
BigTime (3): armlx, Dagger, CropCircles
With 24 alive, it is 13 to lynch.
You guys are going too slow. I'm setting a deadline for tomorrow.:mad:
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Fence-sitting is the policy of taking a moderate position on an argument, or a neutral position, or taking an aggressive position but then following through with a passive response.
This is a form of it. It is scummy, in my book.
It doesn't have to do with the voting so much as you saying "I find X scummy... but that's alright with me." The vote would reinforce the point, but the last sentence, where you basically hedge your bets, makes you scummy.
Note that these points were merely observations to prove your defensiveness.
Good for you. Clearly, I disagree with you and see it as dismissive.
Consider the two definitions at the top of this post. Yours, in my mind, is only a small shred of all fence-sitting examples. Or, simply put, you're minimizing the impact of fence sitting by association. That's like saying "Because Mother Theresa worked in Calcutta, all people in Calcutta are saints."
And again.
Really? I think there is. If I didn't, I wouldn't have included it.
Could you explain this?
What?
See, that's the point, though.
Yes, you outnumber me in terms of posts. But do note the summaries I provided of your posts. At least half of your posts are either random votes, inconsequential ramblings, or explanations of acronym things. So, when you dismiss my case saying "I'm more prolific than you", I have to disagree.
Furthermore, the number of posts made is always unimportant, compared to the value of those posts. I can name a few players who post a ton and are completely useless when it comes to hard analysis.
Furthermore, you proceed to ad-hom me. Your use of terminology like "smear" and your accusation that I'm only posting because I have a grudge is completely unfair to this kind of discussion, creates a dichotomization between us, and serves to dismiss every useful point I've made, which kills debate.
Nice job, scum. You've proved my point. Vote Faerie Lord
Well done. You've reaffirmed by belief that you're incapable of listening.
Reread 224 and get back to me.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Also, Alx did prove he's good for something:
Die, scum.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'm having deja vu. Miller's Crossing Mafia comes to mind. As for why you aren't able to think of a question for me, again I don't really know why that is. My guess would be because I don't have a large volume of posts for you to pull from.
As per your request, here's a question for you (andelijah jumped the gun): How did you feel about us starting the crypto-claims prior to finding out the results of your test ones and whether they were easy to solve?
I had to check the player list to determine the missing player.
I think 10 votes would be a good time to fill in our cryptoclaim, maybe 9 depending on how much additional non-vote suspicion has been expressed. Why do I get the boring question?
23. Does looking at my notes count? -Because I couldn't pick out the missing one from just the questions list.
Unvote, vote Faerie Lord.
TFF, Dagger, Bigtime, MMOD and Xyre from scummiest to least. All but BT have thrown scum tells, with TFF and Dagger giving off some good ones. MMOD and Xyre have given me extremely minor tells. Bigtime hasn't given any tells but my gut is telling me something isn't quite right.
Faerie Lord is play extremely bad, but I can't decide if it's because he's scum or because I'm not used to his playstyle. (Since, he got modkilled for lurking in my game, where I received good insight on playstyle, I can't be a good judge). I would like to hear a claim from him and will join the wagon. Unvote, Vote: Faerie Lord
I checked earlier and thought it was CPE, but then found CPE's question. Reread the list and got it.
@Jodoyodo: Is this your first game of mafia?
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No you phrased the question quite clearly, I'm saying that my posts aren't scummy. However, your carefully worded questions designed to entrap people are interesting. Is this town looking to entrap scum, or scum looking to fish out an unwitting townie victim?
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
Third.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
Is this for real? Or April Fool's?
Because that seems a bit harsh given the relative newness still of the game, and I don't think the pace is bad at all.
-Alpha
On a unrelated note, I will also support a claim from FL, and vote later if the additional pressure is necessary.
EWP: @AI: He's kidding. We've had around 40 posts in the last 24 hours.
You could answer Jobie's for us.
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KAHRNPTTYMNIWMSIT - 71 letters
More tomorrow from work, kids, I'm exhausted.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
That is what I assume you would define it as, since there is nary another reason to bring it up.
I define fence-sitting in a mafia context as not committing yourself to a particular side, but pointing out the respective attractiveness of each.
So, using that definition, here is why what I said is not fence-sitting.
1.) I didn't lack commitment to the issue of FL, I said that before his response to attacks on him, he didn't seem scummy, but certainly did afterward.
That is committing to the fact the he looked scummy.
2.) Perhaps the wording I chose to follow that observation up with made it seem like looking at the attractiveness of 2 sides, but after choosing my position on FL's scumminess, I said that the wagoners are still suspicious in their own right, as it is an age-old (if not slightly overplayed/outdated) scum tell.
Not fence-sitting, as it's not the same issue.
Of course, if you aren't talking about that incident, regard those reasonings.
-Alpha
You'll regret that line of thinking tomorrow. At 12:01 AM.
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My examples were basically fluff. It could have been useful for more people to weigh in on them, but not critical.
@andelijah: I presume you are refering to the mason-outing incident in KF. Let's just say I learned a lesson not to engage in behaviors of this sort just for the sake of proving how smart I am.
But it is different.
Misrepresenting and throwing dirt signify a deliberate blatant attack on a player with weak often-flawed basis supporting it, designed to weaken a player's position. That is scummy.
Overreaction is acting excessively over what can be perceived as a minor issue. That is not necessarily scummy.
GC gave a reasonable explanation. Yours not so. Therefore, my vote switched.
For reference:
He cited "blatant overreaction over a hypothetical situation" with "got all up in arms over Ande claiming to know fake roles" as a supporting basis. The cited phrase is not really a scumtell, even less so in conjunction with a hypothetical situation. And the supporting basis feels entirely too much tacked on to make real sense.
No. I have to refer to the player list.
With regards to FL, I want to see his response first to the latest set of accusations.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
No, Assuming I had this hypothetical post restriction, I would not say it is the epitome of irony, but knowing me, you will yell at me after the game.
@23: No clue, then again I diddnt look hard and am in a hurry, maybe I will get back to this question tommorrow.
Unvote, Vote Big Time.
I'm insulted...but this hurts the most coming from you CPE!
-Alpha
11. What do I think of Dagger? Not much. I think he's attacking me for some things he himself has done, which strikes me as scummy. Other than that, I haven't really seen much, but I have been gone all day today, so I will be rereading quite a bit.
23. Without looking at the list, I can't say, but I think I figured it out.
Oh, and Unvote, cause I can't remember if I still had it on there.
@GC: I probably still would have called it an overreaction. I saw it as an overreaction.
Even though overreaction =/= scum, it is a scumtell, especially this early in the game. We barely got over the acronym claiming when, it think it was Ande, made a comment on how he had kinda cracked one of the fake codes. This prompted GC to suddenly point and say SCUM! at Ande.
Honestly, I saw that post as completly innocent and almost ignored it (ande's post).
Point is, I saw GC jumping all over Ande for what appeared to be nothing, and he was basing his vote around one of the least scummy posts made all game, for illogical reasoning. With so little analysis put into the post, and the very short timeframe I saw GC attack being made in, I saw it as scummy.
You are not the type of player that jumps out immediately.
What do you think of GC's explanation?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
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Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Do you mean this explaination? I don't think that his reasoning justifies his vote here. To me, his explanation is neither here nor there. It doesn't make a person scummy or not, the guessing just makes them a little dumb. Finding one or two roles out of twenty is a mighty task, especially with the codes we have. Thing is though, Ande wasen't trying to decode real codes.
His basis for his vote isn't strongly justified in the first place. It's not a great explanition for his actions.
This could be the wrong explaination post. Can you quote the one you are referring to Dagger?
No, he is, just I diddnt look at the list. I just noticed there were questions for loran and FL, honestly the only two people i KNEW were 100% in this game.
Unvote, Vote Alx2
Well, I know I wouldn't quite stand out to you, although I'm working on being more...visible, I guess to the mafia community at large.
CPE though...we have a history.
@Alx - You mind if I ask you a question? I assume you're trying to bring attention to me through the omission. Is it why I think it is, and what is your reaction to my response, previously posted?
-Alpha
I do not like this at all. Far too tired to explain perfectly right now, but your whole argument is GC is scum and you unvote him?
I can see where GC was coming from with his attack. Scum are much more likely to be deciphering crypto claims.
Also, minor over reaction is not a scum tell. Insanely over reacting is. Attacking people for minor over reactions is blowing something out of proportion to push a lynch, which is a scum tell.
I was talking about this actually:
Though in retrospect, you might not see that as an explanation since you were voting GC due to a different reason.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I don't know how to answer that question... Not sure I understand it...
I've been having a bit of IRL trouble lately, so I won't be posting anything particularily insightful. I'll still be reading the thread, and I hope it won't cause any problems. If it doesn't resolve quickly, I'll ask to be replaced.
In case someone does get replaced (me or otherwise), what do we do with that player's crypto claim?
Bring attention yes, but not necessarily to you. I'm trying to bring attention, in general, to under-the-radar players. A great tool for identifying those is simply to get a pen and paper and write the names of the players in the game in the order they come to mind. Those at the end of the list are under the radar.
Also, to get the town to pay attention. The majority of the players admitted not to recognize you as the missing player. How on earth can they hope to find scum if they don't even know who's in the game!?
As for your reaction, the explanation was too detailed, and somehow worried.
Seeing from your profile that you're from Israel and 18 years old, I assumed you're about to be drafted to the army.
That player should contact the mod and ask permission to PM the solution to his acronym to the replacement, I guess. Normally, private communication is a no-no, but sometimes mods allow communications in case of replacement. If permission isn't given, the replacement player should make a new acronym.
More later today.
The word is not quite "drafted". Actually, I don't know what it is in English, the most accurate translation would probably be "recruited".
I'm curious, CPE, as to why you're voting Alx2 here? While he certainly could be operating under the ruse of a cleverly outspoken scum, that's not the impression I'm getting from him at all. You didn't provide much of an explanation, and considering the current circumstances, this looks like a "safe harbor" for your vote, so that you don't have to commit to the current debates. FoS: CPE
On to that, BigTime looks far worse in the argument than Grimclaw does; he really seems to be reaching to pin a case on GC. Vote: BigTime
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Recruitment usually implies it's voluntary, while a draft is not. Compare and contrast, "I recruited to the army" vs. "I was drafted to the army."
Here ends the English lesson. Now, how about that game of mafia?
While I appreciate the defense, I think you need to examine CPE's posts one by one. Let me know when the penny drops.
What I saw was Ande making analysis on the fake acronyms and GC getting upset for some crazy reason. It was a hypothetical situation, since the rolenames were fake! GC saw this as lies for some reason. I couldn't figure out the Acronyms myself, but it didn't mean that someone else couldn't. I don't know why he thinks Ande was lying. He certinely could have, but he has nothing to gain from it.
Secondly, the fact that it is an overreaction, and has been called an overreaction by several players in the game so far would lead me to believe that my assesment that it is an overreaction is correct.
Most everything after my initial vote is an explanition of that.
I reread you initial vote on Ande, and from what I can see, GC voted him for claiming to know the answers to the fake roles. More specifically, GC tried to explain how this had to be a lie and voted him for that. Lying. I really never saw the lie in Ande's posts, and once again, there is no proof that he was or was not lying. His post of his answers even has a little doubt in there. He made some educated guesses, but he knew he wasen't right on the spot. He wanted to clarify that. Then GC goes and votes him for apparently lying about it all. That's what I saw, that's what caused me to vote GC on the basis of an overreaction over a hypothetical situation.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!