We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
vote: DD because it's too late to 'pologize! o wait................ <insert fotc lyrics here>
much better.
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Quote from "Flight of the Conchords" »
And that made Albi cry a single tear, which turned into a jellybean all colors of the rainbow!
And suddenly, he wasn't racist anymore.
So they sat in the cave (the cave!)
And ate bubblegum pie
YUM!
Albi
The racist....
Well, not anymore!
Dragon
The Mortal DragonDart clearly cannot read well made t-shirts, but I shall forgive him due to the cuteness of the creature called LOLcat in his Avvy.
In more pertinent matters, The Mortal AKid seems to have a small history of finding trouble in early votes. See the game they call Newb Mafia 17, specifically page two, AKid's vote on Netfinity. AKid was town in that game.
What I find interesting is the response of God child (not mine). GC practically copy/pastes AKids response a whole fifteen minutes after AKid. Why bring up what we already know, and so soon after we have learned it?
Also, the Mortal Catalina is correct in her analysis of bandwagoning randomly, but is wrong in the aspect that it is good pro town play. Random Bandwagoning, IMO (which is the ONLY opinion!), is more neutral than anything. True, it can be a useful tool for learning more about a player, but it can be equally harmful to the town, especially in the cases of townies making early mistakes. The random stage is just that, random! Some things can be taken at face value, others can't. Lastly, it's not protown to move out of random, it's still neutral. I'm sure the scum want to get right to trying for a mislynch just as much as the town wants to hunt scum. Moving into seriousness if productive for both sides equally.
Now, I lay out my judgement. Unvote my random judgement. desCoures, you are forsaken.
Finally, it does seem like the Mortal Catalina was setting a trap. The initial bandwagon post, and then several reasons detailing why bandwagoning is a good protown move. Sounds like she was fishing for reaction, trying to pull us out of the random. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I don't think I like it. FoS Catalina for now.
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We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Therefore, any of these things will produce an actual scumtell, and genuine reasons for discussion, bringing the game out of the pointless early voting and into something concrete early on. Hence, it's good protown play to randomly bandwagon early.
Mrs. Mortal Catalina, I have a few questions for you. Just answer with your honest opinion, and remember, I'm always watching you my child, so I know when you are lying!
1. What do you consider Scumtells?
2. What was the reasoning behind your AKid vote?
3. How long have you been playing Mafia? I think we covered that this is not your first experience with Mafia, but how long have you actually been involved?
Answer these questions truthfully, and you will be amazed with the ways in which I work.
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1. Incorrect. So long as nothing real is happening, the scum cannot give themselves away. Getting out of random early = more substantial discussion = more opportunity to make an informed lynch. Informed lynches obviously benefit the town, therefore random wagonning is pro-town.
2. There is no reason not to be using your vote at this point...
Haha! The numbers mean it's analysis time!
1. The Scum want out of the random section too. Think of what's in it for them! Getting to night, setting up a mislynch, all kinds of possibilities not available in the random stage. IN the random stage, alignments really don't exist, because nothing matters. Moving out of this stage is one of the best times for scum to look town. They can find someone who slipped up and make a case around that person. Post-random stage is just as useful to the scum as it is for the town. Also, the scum have the ability to have a more informed NK by taking in anything they may have learned from the serious stages.
In short, compare a world where there is nothing but randomness and a world where there is nothing but serious. The scum are probably much better off with serious due to the fact that it's easier to twist words and ideas than it is to avoid random fate.
2. Yes there is. In fact, the reason FoSes were made were because people were too suspicious not to let a person slip by, but not sure enough to fully vote them. I'm FoSing you right now because I smell something fishy about you, but I want to make an informed decision before just throwing down a vote. It's called not being short sighted.
Mortal Catalina, I can understand where you are coming from with your arguments, but the fact is that the Random stage is not an advantage or disadvantage for either side. Just because it's daytime doesn't mean the Mafia can't control it, and just because it's nighttime doesn't mean the Town can't control it. You act as if the mafia have absolutly nothing to gain once the day exits random. The mafia actually have a lot to gain.
Oh, and praise me!
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Mafia have two goals- get town players lynched and power roles outed on one hand, and not to get caught on the other. But obviously, the harder they go for the former, the more difficult the latter becomes.
So, basically... there's like a contradiction between the two ends. In order to look town, mafia can attack their teammates- but that makes it a lot harder to lynch town player. So, essentially, what I'm looking for is insincerity. Who claims to believe one thing, but then drop it when a juicy looking wagon shows up? Who tries to get someone lynched, and a different player lynched for it?
makes it seem like the scum are schemers, always thinking what to do or say to further their ends.
This:
I don't believe he properly thought through the pros and cons of wagonning, nor my reasons for such; it looked to me that he jumped on me rather opportunistically for something that wasn't actually scummy.
makes it seem like AK did something in the spur of the moment, or based on gut, even if opportunistically.
How do those characterizations lead you to believe AK is scum?
Random bandwagons are good, because eventually they get to the stage where:
a) Someone pushes it to a stage where it's actually dangerous
b) Someone overreacts to a harmless early vote (even better if it's on someone else)
c) someone piles on without knowing why they're doing it
d) Not applicable here, but in night starts, someone rolefishes one of the pushers of the wagon, trying to find out if there's actually a basis there.
Therefore, any of these things will produce an actual scumtell, and genuine reasons for discussion, bringing the game out of the pointless early voting and into something concrete early on. Hence, it's good protown play to randomly bandwagon early.
Also, AK, ffs, I'm a woman. It's not that hard. And omgus is not always bad. Nice of you to reveal your opportunistic nature, though...
I think I found the gist of my problem with the Mortal Catalina.
By literal definition, OMGUS translates into "Oh My God You (U) Suck!", and is typically used to describe an overreaction.
In the first part of the Mortal's post, she describes what AKid was supposedly guilty of: an overreaction. She also says later on that AKid "Jumped on her" for various reasons, and claiming that she didn't think he properly thought out the arguments, which IMO would be another symptom of OMGUS.
AKid's vote on Catalina came across to me as "OMGUS! I can't believe you said that!" and then a vote. It was not an OMGUS to a vote, but it doesn't need to be. It's still an OMGUS.
Catalina admits to OMGUSing and says it's perfectly fine, but attacks AKid for overreacting to her.
That's a contradiction to me. This seems clear cut my children. Let me break it down for you.
1. Catalina admits to OMGUSing, which I believe is always a bad move for everyone. I can go into detail, but this is just a reason I have to vote her.
2. Catalina is contradicting herself between her defense and her arguments against AKid.
3. Catalina looks an awful lot like she was setting a trap for some unsuspecting person. See her "Bandwagon FTW!" post, and then her explaination for why Bandwagons are good. It's almost as if she admits to baiting someone into biting her hook. That's not a townie mindset. I can also go into detail on this too, and in fact look forward to it.
4. Catalina pulled all of us out of the random stage singlehandedly, and before I think we were ready. I'm not even sure if everyone has checked in yet! IMO, a player single handedly pulling a game out of the random phase is bad because they give the impression that they are ready to get somewhere. That somewhere is the logical conclusion of a lynch and night, which isn't good for the town. Steering the town isn't a townie mindset. Allowing the town to steer itself is.
My children, I urge you to consider these points carefully, and ask any questions you feel need to be asked. I must leave you for a short time, to earn money and to play what you mortals call magic, but I will return in a timely fashion.
You have read my word, and my word is FINAL! Vote Catalina
Oh yeah, and when I get back I will have something to say about her latest post. To my holy duties then!
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Catalina is obviously new, and you guys are fighting over semantics(her misintrepretation of the term OMGUS). I don't think that there is anything to the suspicion there.
No it's not. Otherwise no one would ever be able to vote someone who was voting them. AK accused me of being scummy for doing something protown, which is scummy.
I don't usually classify that as OMGUS. I'd classify that as a separate entity called "voting for your attacker because they're attacking you for bad reasons." It needs a nice acronym, though.
Bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, which is what you did, is something I consider anti-town, because it is voting without a good reason, and provides scum with a good excuse to put townies in danger. Putting a 2nd vote on somebody in the random phase is one thing, endorsing a bandwagon without reason is an entirely different action.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
1. Not complete analysis - there is always the fact that (bad) players can give away role information while dorking around, so scum can profit from a long random phase; also by representing random actions as tells once random has passed (or representing their own tells as random stuff).
2. Nah!
greetings
Z
1. I agree, Mortal Z, that scum can profit from long random phases, but here is the bigger picture, and you actually mention this right here. Without the post-random section, the scum cannot misrepresent some townie players. The Serious portion of the game allows much more in the way of manipulation and strategy for the scum than the Random section. So, I think that both the town and the scum have something to gain from random, but both quickly get bored with it and move on. The scum live for progressing the game into night and surviving while doing it. That's why steering the town out of the Random section is a slight scumtell. Anxiousness. It's complicated, and I'm running off of an UNGODLY 3 hours of sleep, being awake for 16 hours and counting, and I need to run. I'll have more later.
2. But...but...but you are one of my children! Will you not come into my busom? (DON'T THINK DIRTY!)
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Catalina is obviously new, and you guys are fighting over semantics(her misintrepretation of the term OMGUS). I don't think that there is anything to the suspicion there.
I don't think Catalina is new, but I agree that she doesn't seem scummy. Her reasons for pushing an early bandwagon (post 58) seem fine to me, and I disagree with BigTime that scum are just as eager to get it out of the random phase and into real discussion. Real discussion is how we find scum.
Catalina is obviously new, and you guys are fighting over semantics(her misintrepretation of the term OMGUS). I don't think that there is anything to the suspicion there.
If you want more semantics, there has been no fighting, just clarification.
Ok, I have a break in work, let me clarify my four reasons for voting her while I have time.
1. She admit's OMGUS, no real clarification needed.
2. She overreacts, it's ok. AKid overreacts, it deserves a vote. Even if you ignore the fact that this is a trap of hers, it's still scummy. Contradiction FTL...
3. The Trap business. Ok, Catalina just admitted that was the plan, Zas expanded on it for me, and there it is. The scummy part about it was that she was going to do that to WHOEVER popped up first with a response. If you look back, God child followed right behind AKid except sans vote. It goes like this:
1. Catalina makes a brash statement to provoke some attention.
2. Player X gives attention with vote.
3. Catalina supports her side with wishy-washy logic (I will prove later!)
4. Catalina then calls out player x for responding to brash statement, votes, hopes for wagon etc...
It doesn't matter who player X is. She is just fishing for a specific response to turn the tables on someone. Admiral Ackbar would be proud of her, but I think this is a scum tactic 100%
4. She pulls us out of the r/v stage. You can debate whether this is good or bad, but IMO, the town should not be lead in any direction by a single person unless there is general consensus. She admits that she was kind of trapping someone, so this point stands. Without her action of setting the trap, we might not be here.
The point is, she lead the town. The town goes where it wants, when it wants, WITHOUT help from any one specific person. If someone starts leading the town on, pushing it somewhere, forcing it somewhere, I call that scummy. The town will do it by itself.
Anyway, I gtg. I will answer all your prayers Etc...
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Actually, 3. seems correct.
Catalina admitted she was setting up a fake bandwagon (trap) to get reactions that can be used to incriminate a player. I just doubt whether anything about her alignment can be concluded from there.
I'm not denying that they're mostly factually accurate, but using them as points against Catalina is kind of absurd. Traps and whatnot are not scummy at all (I'd even bet that its mostly townies who use them: I can't remember the last time a scum laid a trap), and bringing us out of the random vote stage is definitely not scummy, and even if it were, AK was the one to do so.
3. The Trap business. Ok, Catalina just admitted that was the plan, Zas expanded on it for me, and there it is. The scummy part about it was that she was going to do that to WHOEVER popped up first with a response. If you look back, God child followed right behind AKid except sans vote. It goes like this:
1. Catalina makes a brash statement to provoke some attention.
2. Player X gives attention with vote.
3. Catalina supports her side with wishy-washy logic (I will prove later!)
4. Catalina then calls out player x for responding to brash statement, votes, hopes for wagon etc...
It doesn't matter who player X is. She is just fishing for a specific response to turn the tables on someone. Admiral Ackbar would be proud of her, but I think this is a scum tactic 100%
The "it doesn't matter who player X is" logic only works if you will assume both scum and town will have equal motivation to respond the same way. In this case, the elusive player X is just as likely to be scum as town, and the whole thing useless.
However, if we assume that town motivations differ from scum motivations (and trust me, they are), isn't "fishing for a specific response" what a townie should do?
The notion that scum lay traps is pretty silly. The last thing that a scum wants to do is make a spectacle of themself, but that is what happened if you 'lay a trap' that results in a townie getting lynched.
The "it doesn't matter who player X is" logic only works if you will assume both scum and town will have equal motivation to respond the same way. In this case, the elusive player X is just as likely to be scum as town, and the whole thing useless.
However, if we assume that town motivations differ from scum motivations (and trust me, they are), isn't "fishing for a specific response" what a townie should do?
That's a great idea. Let's analyze the differences in scum and town motivations, specifically the motivations of Player X here. Any player, scum or town, could easily sit back and vote her for bandwagoning. That's what makes it a trap. She's not specifically hunting scum, she's hunting for a generic response. That could easily lead to a townie dying.
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Feel free to contribute to it, then, Booter, instead of just spamming.
@Catalina: I"m going to have to take issue with a couple of things, there.
Bandwagon voting is certainly not, in and of itself, a pro-town action. Content and Intent play a huge part in this, and must be judged accordingly each time.
That's a great idea. Let's analyze the differences in scum and town motivations, specifically the motivations of Player X here. Any player, scum or town, could easily sit back and vote her for bandwagoning. That's what makes it a trap. She's not specifically hunting scum, she's hunting for a generic response. That could easily lead to a townie dying.
In the random phase, it's not going to lead to a lynch or to a townie dying. It's meant to generate discussion and bring us out of the random phase.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
*And catalina is a name of a salad dressing, so it didn't imply either gender to me, and considering the ratio on these boards, getting mad about it is silly.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
You have read my word, and my word is FINAL! Vote Catalina
You've been grasping at straws for, like, 5 tl;dr posts.
unvote vote:bigtime
Such a blatent over-reaction, why?
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Intention is what is important here, and I cannot see any way for Catalina's action to be classified as having a scummy intent. It just makes no sense.
EBWODP: I also think that AK has hugely overcommitted himself to what he should have realized was nothing to begin with, and that this is worth some further pressure against him. Vote AK accordingly.
Wow. Lemme tell you, that is amazing reasoning! Except that it's not there. I don't care if you possibly justify it in a later post. You should have elaborated instead of just tossing an OMGUS vote on there. I find it funny how you have been letting this be called OMGUS up until your latest defense where suddenly it's not OMGUS.
Yeah, if you don't want it to be OMGUS, justify the vote IN THE SAME POST!
Random bandwagons are good, because eventually they get to the stage where:
a) Someone pushes it to a stage where it's actually dangerous
b) Someone overreacts to a harmless early vote (even better if it's on someone else)
c) someone piles on without knowing why they're doing it
d) Not applicable here, but in night starts, someone rolefishes one of the pushers of the wagon, trying to find out if there's actually a basis there.
Therefore, any of these things will produce an actual scumtell, and genuine reasons for discussion, bringing the game out of the pointless early voting and into something concrete early on. Hence, it's good protown play to randomly bandwagon early.
Ahh, here's where she defends the idea that random bandwagons are great! I should have plenty of fun picking this logic apart. I'll go down here list, from A-D.
A. In a random bandwagon, I doubt a wagon will see votes over 4, and 4 is not dangerous. I agree that you might have a suspect or two if the random voting bandwagon starts to get dangerous, but that's a COMPLETLY unrealistic situation. However, you were piling more votes on a wagon in progress in the random stage. I think you were number three maybe, and your comment was made to agitate people.
B. See, this is the point in question. You use this point as your defense for voting AKid. However, AKid had a legit reason to vote you. You gave it to him! You were just pointlessly bandwagoning, and it was on a player who had a few votes on him anyway. So, your vote was getting a little reckless. AKid had plenty of reason to vote you, even without your comment.
Besides, this point has nothing to do with Random Bandwagons. This is more of a point concerning OMGUS.
C. This is an easy enough thing for a townie to do as well as a sneaky scum. It's a non-tell.
D. Has nothing to do with this game at ALL. Why bring it up?
So, your logic for why random bandwagons are good are a big load. The most you get out of them are OMGUS tells.
In fact, your entire display with your "Why random Bandwagoning is a good thing" has actually displayed why it's a bad thing. You random bandwagoned with weak reasoning, and now I'm after you. Your reasoning has been less than exceptional by far. And finally...
1. I called it omgus to pre-empt the inevitable accusations. I had reasons: I gave them.
2. I didn't overreact though, so you fail. Someone did something scummy, i voted for them.
3. A SCUMMY response. IF someone had joined the bandwagon, or ignored it, or done, frankly, anything over than the
4. Relevant how? The vote is important.
5. Catalina makes a random bandwagon vote. Player X jumps on her, even though her action is protown. Catalina votes X for voting someone for doing something protown.
6. Town tactic 100%. See all the reasons listed above.
7. You can, but if you say it's bad, you're wrong.
8. Kind of trapping? I was random bandwagonning, LIKE TOWN PLAYERS DO ALL THE TIME, TO GET THE GAME MOVING WHICH IS A PROTOWN OBJECTIVE.
9. Simply untrue. If no-one takes the initiative, it turns into a lurkfest.
1. Oh, so NOW it's NOT an OMGUS? That's the first time you've said that. Oh, and your reasons, they were non-existant, so it WAS an OMGUS.
2. Uhh, what? You didn't do anything scummy? You didn't overreact? You voted someone after they voted you, and you gave no reasoning behind it. In fact, AKid was exactly right in voting you. You were throwing your vote around without explaination, only to eventually admit that you were voting to catch someone coming after you, which, can you blame them? You WERE waving a scummy flag for a while, I'm not surprised he came after you!
Point is, AKid voted you, and you turned right around and voted him, calling your very own vote an OMGUS, and you failed to provide ANY support for your OMGUS vote. That's an overreaction in my book, and hypocrisy going against you too.
3. From what you have been telling me, if someone joins the bandwagon, that scummy reasoning. If someone comes after you for joining the bandwagon, that's also scummy. The only real option you give to people is to ignore the wagon completly. I'm fairly sure that you would just change your case depending on whoever gave a response.
You really didn't care who you got. ou just wanted to try and put someone in a hot spot and possibly get yourself to look good for the town. Except for the fact that this tactic is not pro-town, due to the fact that it's more likely to catch a townie. Scum would just sit back and let the random bandwagon happen on whatever person you picked happen. They don't care. You are almost always going to accuse a townie this way. It's foolish.
4. It's relevent because it shows us that there was more than just AKid with the same thoughts running through there head, which were "What the hell are you doing?". I was asking the same thing, but it would have been incredibly redundant for me to bring up the same thing. Point is, it's not uncommon for people to chew you out for bandwagoning carelessly and then cheering about it. It's kind of a big scummy move.
5. You action is not protown. Stop saying that. Show me something we have gained from your "protown" action in this game! You haden't explained why it was protown. You sat there screaming BANDWAGON FTW! You clearly haven't been here before, because here, bandwagoning without good reasoning, which you haden't presented, if BAD! So, AKid voted you FOR A BAD THING. I don't care where you come from, but you have to realize that on this site, what you did was wrong and AKid can't be blamed for anything.
So, AKid is innocent. More importantly, your foolproof scum-hunting plan doesn't hunt scum! It hunts anyone who attacks your foolish playstyle, town and scum alike. That's why it's a trap and a bad play.
6. How is turning the tables on someone who you don't know the alignment of a good 100% pro-town play? You have just as good of a chance to catch a townie as a scum! It's a BAD PLAY!
7. It is bad, because you're influencing the town without the town's best intrest. That's scummy.
8. You were bandwagoning WITHOUT ANY REASONING TO BE SEEN! That's NOT acceptable. AT ALL. So, while other people who are townies may random bandwagon, they give a brief explaination. You weren't giving anything, so someone finally jumped on you.
9. Wrong. I'm not saying that we should discuss and anything, I'm saying that when the town is ready to move on, they will move on. They will either reach a vocal consensus that we need to get moving, or they will all just progress at the same time. You just single-handedly moved the town from random to complete seriousness without any regard for the town. We had players who haden't even checked in. They missed everything. Part of the random stage is to have a get to know everyone.
Ugh, I've got so many different reasons I think you are scummy, but I can't begin to vocalize them due to lack of sleep, me being at work, and being incredibly pissed off at the world.
I'm gonna cause armegeddon. Ugh. I need someone to talk me down. Imagine that, a deity needs talking down instead of the other way around...
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Bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, which is what you did, is something I consider anti-town, because it is voting without a good reason, and provides scum with a good excuse to put townies in danger. Putting a 2nd vote on somebody in the random phase is one thing, endorsing a bandwagon without reason is an entirely different action.
So Catalina was bandwagoning with no good reason. But Abso was too cautious for not placing a second vote because it was a random bandwagon, not a serious one? Interesting then that you called Catalina out for "random bandwagoning." Unvote, Vote AKid
Note to self: Cyan, Minineko and BigTime are town. Cyan on account of his earnestness, the other two for drawing attention to themselves right out of the garage.
Ugh. I just read the posts between my latest and last one. It took me about 2 and a half hours to write it. Ignore most of it. I was so concerned with the basics of why Catalina's plan was wrong that I failed to see a larger picture, that she really didn't strike me as scummy anymore, she just had a horrible plan. That entire post for nuthin...UGH! I am having a terrible day...
Unvote
I need an UNGODLY amount of asprin. helpmeplzkthxBAI!
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Rather extreme reaction for a relatively innocent mistake: at least 90% of the players here are male (or at least they don't correct me otherwise).
Yes it is: its a vote against someone with the only reason being they voted you. If you have legitimate reasons, its not an OMGUS vote.
Also, this:
makes it seem like the scum are schemers, always thinking what to do or say to further their ends.
This:
makes it seem like AK did something in the spur of the moment, or based on gut, even if opportunistically.
How do those characterizations lead you to believe AK is scum?
Based on the description, I'm not sure using it to clean your ear is a good idea.
Ooo-weeee! I found my first scummy post of the thread. And it's a whopper. Poking a pretty wide blanket of players with negative comments, but not quite accusations, and placing the onus of these players through the asking of questions bound to put the players in the defensive mode.
Reading the whole Catalina incident has given me a migraine. I'm going to chalk it up to townies kicking sand at each other. I trust the scum is sitting back and smiling.
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you do realise that bandwagons of this nature are actually ftl, right?
You realize that omgus is way bad, Mr. Scum?
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Have you played mafia before? Are you aware of typical scum behavioral patterns? Please be as concise or wordy as you like.
much better.
CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR KOOL.
In more pertinent matters, The Mortal AKid seems to have a small history of finding trouble in early votes. See the game they call Newb Mafia 17, specifically page two, AKid's vote on Netfinity. AKid was town in that game.
What I find interesting is the response of God child (not mine). GC practically copy/pastes AKids response a whole fifteen minutes after AKid. Why bring up what we already know, and so soon after we have learned it?
Also, the Mortal Catalina is correct in her analysis of bandwagoning randomly, but is wrong in the aspect that it is good pro town play. Random Bandwagoning, IMO (which is the ONLY opinion!), is more neutral than anything. True, it can be a useful tool for learning more about a player, but it can be equally harmful to the town, especially in the cases of townies making early mistakes. The random stage is just that, random! Some things can be taken at face value, others can't. Lastly, it's not protown to move out of random, it's still neutral. I'm sure the scum want to get right to trying for a mislynch just as much as the town wants to hunt scum. Moving into seriousness if productive for both sides equally.
Now, I lay out my judgement. Unvote my random judgement. desCoures, you are forsaken.
Finally, it does seem like the Mortal Catalina was setting a trap. The initial bandwagon post, and then several reasons detailing why bandwagoning is a good protown move. Sounds like she was fishing for reaction, trying to pull us out of the random. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I don't think I like it. FoS Catalina for now.
I was voting more for the "Bandwagon FTW" comment than the actual vote.
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Haha, as cute as that LOLcat is, I thought I might use my avatar to educate people as to the origins of my username.
Mrs. Mortal Catalina, I have a few questions for you. Just answer with your honest opinion, and remember, I'm always watching you my child, so I know when you are lying!
1. What do you consider Scumtells?
2. What was the reasoning behind your AKid vote?
3. How long have you been playing Mafia? I think we covered that this is not your first experience with Mafia, but how long have you actually been involved?
Answer these questions truthfully, and you will be amazed with the ways in which I work.
Haha! The numbers mean it's analysis time!
1. The Scum want out of the random section too. Think of what's in it for them! Getting to night, setting up a mislynch, all kinds of possibilities not available in the random stage. IN the random stage, alignments really don't exist, because nothing matters. Moving out of this stage is one of the best times for scum to look town. They can find someone who slipped up and make a case around that person. Post-random stage is just as useful to the scum as it is for the town. Also, the scum have the ability to have a more informed NK by taking in anything they may have learned from the serious stages.
In short, compare a world where there is nothing but randomness and a world where there is nothing but serious. The scum are probably much better off with serious due to the fact that it's easier to twist words and ideas than it is to avoid random fate.
2. Yes there is. In fact, the reason FoSes were made were because people were too suspicious not to let a person slip by, but not sure enough to fully vote them. I'm FoSing you right now because I smell something fishy about you, but I want to make an informed decision before just throwing down a vote. It's called not being short sighted.
Mortal Catalina, I can understand where you are coming from with your arguments, but the fact is that the Random stage is not an advantage or disadvantage for either side. Just because it's daytime doesn't mean the Mafia can't control it, and just because it's nighttime doesn't mean the Town can't control it. You act as if the mafia have absolutly nothing to gain once the day exits random. The mafia actually have a lot to gain.
Oh, and praise me!
Yes it is: its a vote against someone with the only reason being they voted you. If you have legitimate reasons, its not an OMGUS vote.
Also, this:
makes it seem like the scum are schemers, always thinking what to do or say to further their ends.
This:
makes it seem like AK did something in the spur of the moment, or based on gut, even if opportunistically.
How do those characterizations lead you to believe AK is scum?
Based on the description, I'm not sure using it to clean your ear is a good idea.
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I think I found the gist of my problem with the Mortal Catalina.
By literal definition, OMGUS translates into "Oh My God You (U) Suck!", and is typically used to describe an overreaction.
In the first part of the Mortal's post, she describes what AKid was supposedly guilty of: an overreaction. She also says later on that AKid "Jumped on her" for various reasons, and claiming that she didn't think he properly thought out the arguments, which IMO would be another symptom of OMGUS.
AKid's vote on Catalina came across to me as "OMGUS! I can't believe you said that!" and then a vote. It was not an OMGUS to a vote, but it doesn't need to be. It's still an OMGUS.
Catalina admits to OMGUSing and says it's perfectly fine, but attacks AKid for overreacting to her.
That's a contradiction to me. This seems clear cut my children. Let me break it down for you.
1. Catalina admits to OMGUSing, which I believe is always a bad move for everyone. I can go into detail, but this is just a reason I have to vote her.
2. Catalina is contradicting herself between her defense and her arguments against AKid.
3. Catalina looks an awful lot like she was setting a trap for some unsuspecting person. See her "Bandwagon FTW!" post, and then her explaination for why Bandwagons are good. It's almost as if she admits to baiting someone into biting her hook. That's not a townie mindset. I can also go into detail on this too, and in fact look forward to it.
4. Catalina pulled all of us out of the random stage singlehandedly, and before I think we were ready. I'm not even sure if everyone has checked in yet! IMO, a player single handedly pulling a game out of the random phase is bad because they give the impression that they are ready to get somewhere. That somewhere is the logical conclusion of a lynch and night, which isn't good for the town. Steering the town isn't a townie mindset. Allowing the town to steer itself is.
My children, I urge you to consider these points carefully, and ask any questions you feel need to be asked. I must leave you for a short time, to earn money and to play what you mortals call magic, but I will return in a timely fashion.
You have read my word, and my word is FINAL! Vote Catalina
Oh yeah, and when I get back I will have something to say about her latest post. To my holy duties then!
I'm actually opposed to a policy BigTime wagon after his avatar and custom tag change.
I don't usually classify that as OMGUS. I'd classify that as a separate entity called "voting for your attacker because they're attacking you for bad reasons." It needs a nice acronym, though.
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1. I agree, Mortal Z, that scum can profit from long random phases, but here is the bigger picture, and you actually mention this right here. Without the post-random section, the scum cannot misrepresent some townie players. The Serious portion of the game allows much more in the way of manipulation and strategy for the scum than the Random section. So, I think that both the town and the scum have something to gain from random, but both quickly get bored with it and move on. The scum live for progressing the game into night and surviving while doing it. That's why steering the town out of the Random section is a slight scumtell. Anxiousness. It's complicated, and I'm running off of an UNGODLY 3 hours of sleep, being awake for 16 hours and counting, and I need to run. I'll have more later.
2. But...but...but you are one of my children! Will you not come into my busom? (DON'T THINK DIRTY!)
I don't think Catalina is new, but I agree that she doesn't seem scummy. Her reasons for pushing an early bandwagon (post 58) seem fine to me, and I disagree with BigTime that scum are just as eager to get it out of the random phase and into real discussion. Real discussion is how we find scum.
If you want more semantics, there has been no fighting, just clarification.
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1. She admit's OMGUS, no real clarification needed.
2. She overreacts, it's ok. AKid overreacts, it deserves a vote. Even if you ignore the fact that this is a trap of hers, it's still scummy. Contradiction FTL...
3. The Trap business. Ok, Catalina just admitted that was the plan, Zas expanded on it for me, and there it is. The scummy part about it was that she was going to do that to WHOEVER popped up first with a response. If you look back, God child followed right behind AKid except sans vote. It goes like this:
1. Catalina makes a brash statement to provoke some attention.
2. Player X gives attention with vote.
3. Catalina supports her side with wishy-washy logic (I will prove later!)
4. Catalina then calls out player x for responding to brash statement, votes, hopes for wagon etc...
It doesn't matter who player X is. She is just fishing for a specific response to turn the tables on someone. Admiral Ackbar would be proud of her, but I think this is a scum tactic 100%
4. She pulls us out of the r/v stage. You can debate whether this is good or bad, but IMO, the town should not be lead in any direction by a single person unless there is general consensus. She admits that she was kind of trapping someone, so this point stands. Without her action of setting the trap, we might not be here.
The point is, she lead the town. The town goes where it wants, when it wants, WITHOUT help from any one specific person. If someone starts leading the town on, pushing it somewhere, forcing it somewhere, I call that scummy. The town will do it by itself.
Anyway, I gtg. I will answer all your prayers Etc...
Unless I'm misinterpreting what ffs stands for, but I'm pretty sure I'm not
I'm not denying that they're mostly factually accurate, but using them as points against Catalina is kind of absurd. Traps and whatnot are not scummy at all (I'd even bet that its mostly townies who use them: I can't remember the last time a scum laid a trap), and bringing us out of the random vote stage is definitely not scummy, and even if it were, AK was the one to do so.
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However, if we assume that town motivations differ from scum motivations (and trust me, they are), isn't "fishing for a specific response" what a townie should do?
Can you explain exactly why you are voting for AKid?
That's a great idea. Let's analyze the differences in scum and town motivations, specifically the motivations of Player X here. Any player, scum or town, could easily sit back and vote her for bandwagoning. That's what makes it a trap. She's not specifically hunting scum, she's hunting for a generic response. That could easily lead to a townie dying.
@Catalina: I"m going to have to take issue with a couple of things, there.
Bandwagon voting is certainly not, in and of itself, a pro-town action. Content and Intent play a huge part in this, and must be judged accordingly each time.
In the random phase, it's not going to lead to a lynch or to a townie dying. It's meant to generate discussion and bring us out of the random phase.
But either scum or town could logically have the same response, as bigtime pointed out, so it's a moot point when either responds the same way.
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unvote vote:bigtime
Such a blatent over-reaction, why?
No, it isn't. Random bandwagon is suspicious and you should be called out on it.
With that said, I'm leaning town on Catalina. Her plan was terrible, but her heart seemed to be in the right place.
Wow. Lemme tell you, that is amazing reasoning! Except that it's not there. I don't care if you possibly justify it in a later post. You should have elaborated instead of just tossing an OMGUS vote on there. I find it funny how you have been letting this be called OMGUS up until your latest defense where suddenly it's not OMGUS.
Yeah, if you don't want it to be OMGUS, justify the vote IN THE SAME POST!
Ahh, here's where she defends the idea that random bandwagons are great! I should have plenty of fun picking this logic apart. I'll go down here list, from A-D.
A. In a random bandwagon, I doubt a wagon will see votes over 4, and 4 is not dangerous. I agree that you might have a suspect or two if the random voting bandwagon starts to get dangerous, but that's a COMPLETLY unrealistic situation. However, you were piling more votes on a wagon in progress in the random stage. I think you were number three maybe, and your comment was made to agitate people.
B. See, this is the point in question. You use this point as your defense for voting AKid. However, AKid had a legit reason to vote you. You gave it to him! You were just pointlessly bandwagoning, and it was on a player who had a few votes on him anyway. So, your vote was getting a little reckless. AKid had plenty of reason to vote you, even without your comment.
Besides, this point has nothing to do with Random Bandwagons. This is more of a point concerning OMGUS.
C. This is an easy enough thing for a townie to do as well as a sneaky scum. It's a non-tell.
D. Has nothing to do with this game at ALL. Why bring it up?
So, your logic for why random bandwagons are good are a big load. The most you get out of them are OMGUS tells.
In fact, your entire display with your "Why random Bandwagoning is a good thing" has actually displayed why it's a bad thing. You random bandwagoned with weak reasoning, and now I'm after you. Your reasoning has been less than exceptional by far. And finally...
1. Oh, so NOW it's NOT an OMGUS? That's the first time you've said that. Oh, and your reasons, they were non-existant, so it WAS an OMGUS.
2. Uhh, what? You didn't do anything scummy? You didn't overreact? You voted someone after they voted you, and you gave no reasoning behind it. In fact, AKid was exactly right in voting you. You were throwing your vote around without explaination, only to eventually admit that you were voting to catch someone coming after you, which, can you blame them? You WERE waving a scummy flag for a while, I'm not surprised he came after you!
Point is, AKid voted you, and you turned right around and voted him, calling your very own vote an OMGUS, and you failed to provide ANY support for your OMGUS vote. That's an overreaction in my book, and hypocrisy going against you too.
3. From what you have been telling me, if someone joins the bandwagon, that scummy reasoning. If someone comes after you for joining the bandwagon, that's also scummy. The only real option you give to people is to ignore the wagon completly. I'm fairly sure that you would just change your case depending on whoever gave a response.
You really didn't care who you got. ou just wanted to try and put someone in a hot spot and possibly get yourself to look good for the town. Except for the fact that this tactic is not pro-town, due to the fact that it's more likely to catch a townie. Scum would just sit back and let the random bandwagon happen on whatever person you picked happen. They don't care. You are almost always going to accuse a townie this way. It's foolish.
4. It's relevent because it shows us that there was more than just AKid with the same thoughts running through there head, which were "What the hell are you doing?". I was asking the same thing, but it would have been incredibly redundant for me to bring up the same thing. Point is, it's not uncommon for people to chew you out for bandwagoning carelessly and then cheering about it. It's kind of a big scummy move.
5. You action is not protown. Stop saying that. Show me something we have gained from your "protown" action in this game! You haden't explained why it was protown. You sat there screaming BANDWAGON FTW! You clearly haven't been here before, because here, bandwagoning without good reasoning, which you haden't presented, if BAD! So, AKid voted you FOR A BAD THING. I don't care where you come from, but you have to realize that on this site, what you did was wrong and AKid can't be blamed for anything.
So, AKid is innocent. More importantly, your foolproof scum-hunting plan doesn't hunt scum! It hunts anyone who attacks your foolish playstyle, town and scum alike. That's why it's a trap and a bad play.
6. How is turning the tables on someone who you don't know the alignment of a good 100% pro-town play? You have just as good of a chance to catch a townie as a scum! It's a BAD PLAY!
7. It is bad, because you're influencing the town without the town's best intrest. That's scummy.
8. You were bandwagoning WITHOUT ANY REASONING TO BE SEEN! That's NOT acceptable. AT ALL. So, while other people who are townies may random bandwagon, they give a brief explaination. You weren't giving anything, so someone finally jumped on you.
9. Wrong. I'm not saying that we should discuss and anything, I'm saying that when the town is ready to move on, they will move on. They will either reach a vocal consensus that we need to get moving, or they will all just progress at the same time. You just single-handedly moved the town from random to complete seriousness without any regard for the town. We had players who haden't even checked in. They missed everything. Part of the random stage is to have a get to know everyone.
Ugh, I've got so many different reasons I think you are scummy, but I can't begin to vocalize them due to lack of sleep, me being at work, and being incredibly pissed off at the world.
I'm gonna cause armegeddon. Ugh. I need someone to talk me down. Imagine that, a deity needs talking down instead of the other way around...
What would give you that indication, and why would you feel the need to tell us that?
Followed by this:
Interesting how that works... "random" bandwagons are fail... but absolutionis was being too cautious about placing a 2nd vote?
So Catalina was bandwagoning with no good reason. But Abso was too cautious for not placing a second vote because it was a random bandwagon, not a serious one? Interesting then that you called Catalina out for "random bandwagoning."
Unvote, Vote AKid
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I need an UNGODLY amount of asprin. helpmeplzkthxBAI!
vote: andelijah
Ove-reaction? I don't think so. Care to elaborate?