If he lets things play out more his case could be stronger. It also creates the opportunity to see who else might need looking into (but I was thinking more of the former). By coming in quickly he does interfere with the reactions, and if Cyan believes the reactions are useless he could dismiss them later.
Quick, modkill Abbey for editing! Oh wait....:P
As for what's been going on, I don't have a great read on anybody. Bil is suspect, but I don't like how Cyan has been talking for him. At this point, Cyan is seeming scummiest to me, but it's not much more than my gut-jerk to a player defending another.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
This type of 'information' is invalid to begin with, because it comes from a tainted well, so to speak. Trying to differentiate between a 'newb' reaction to vote pressure and a 'newb scum' reaction to vote pressure is impossible, or nearly enough so that it's not worth the effort in a case like this.
Oh okay, since you said so, magically it must be true. I wish that the giant 'eyeroll' smilie still existed here so I can use it now. Anyway.
First, some clarification. Putting one vote on someone cannot indicate a 'vote to gauge reactions', because virtually nobody reacts to a single vote, especially so early in the game. Only a newb will ever do so, or maybe an atrociously bad player. Either way, any 'information' that you get from pressuring them is not going to result in a real tell anyway. *Especially* if the person is a newb. The only logical reason to put a pressure vote there is because A)you realize that they are a newb(which was 100% obvious in this case) and B)you anticipate that they will react badly. This is simply not a pro-town action. Ever.
And yes, I agree with Cyan, applying a 1 vote pressure early in the game to a noob in order to gauge reaction doesn't seem like it's ever going to really prove anything.
Oh okay, since you said so, magically it must be true. I wish that the giant 'eyeroll' smilie still existed here so I can use it now. Anyway.
Eyerolls are a scum tell.[/phodos]
First, some clarification. Putting one vote on someone cannot indicate a 'vote to gauge reactions', because virtually nobody reacts to a single vote, especially so early in the game.
Gee, then maybe it's a good thing I didn't merely vote, but also asked him questions and drew him out based on his posts, huh?
Only a newb will ever do so, or maybe an atrociously bad player. Either way, any 'information' that you get from pressuring them is not going to result in a real tell anyway.
I don't know why you're using scare quotes here. Do you even realize that you're attempting to downplay the underlying skill of playing mafia? Reading words, interpreting them, and drawing conclusionds about a persons motivations. That's what mafia is.
*Especially* if the person is a newb. The only logical reason to put a pressure vote there is because A)you realize that they are a newb(which was 100% obvious in this case) and B)you anticipate that they will react badly. This is simply not a pro-town action. Ever.
RobRoy already explained this. N00b scum and n00b town react differently, even if the differences are subtle.
Look, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Are you the kind of player who relies only on night actions and flavor to try and find scum?
Gee, then maybe it's a good thing I didn't merely vote, but also asked him questions and drew him out based on his posts, huh?
Nice try at making your effort look more benevolent than it really was. All you asked him is what other games he's been in, then he answered, then you immediately declared that you didn't believe his previous post, and voted him. This is all in the thread, and does not qualify as trying to 'draw him out', unless you mean trying to draw a bad reaction out of him. If you were really a concerned town, you would have given him the chance to answer and explain and THEN voted. Your actions absolutely stink of opportunism.
I don't know why you're using scare quotes here. Do you even realize that you're attempting to downplay the underlying skill of playing mafia? Reading words, interpreting them, and drawing conclusionds about a persons motivations. That's what mafia is.
I know how the game works. I also know that bullying some newbie is not going to make any of this happen.
RobRoy already explained this. N00b scum and n00b town react differently, even if the differences are subtle.
Clearly you haven't seen/participated in alot of lynches against newbs. Someone that is newb scum is inevitably going to make this obvious, it doesn't take thug plays like the one that you tried here to draw them out. The vast majority of lynches that occur against newbs are against town ones that simply don't know any better. Sometimes we just have to let this go, but the path that you were taking was so absolutely obvious that it was pitiful.
Look, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Are you the kind of player who relies only on night actions and flavor to try and find scum?
I'm trying to accomplish not allowing a scum(that's you) steamroll some townie who is too new to know any better.
Look, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Are you the kind of player who relies only on night actions and flavor to try and find scum?
CC: I think I answered sufficiently in #211. scroll up.
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I am going to Fos: Cyan. This is because he is needlessly defending me. While I do appreciate it, it kind of makes me think that you know something that everyone else doesn't. If you can clear that up, after all, the only two roles that know stuff about other players are mafia and masons, and masons only know about other masons, unless you did a night zero cop check, which I don't beleive are allowed.
I am going to Fos: Cyan. This is because he is needlessly defending me. While I do appreciate it, it kind of makes me think that you know something that everyone else doesn't. If you can clear that up, after all, the only two roles that know stuff about other players are mafia and masons, and masons only know about other masons, unless you did a night zero cop check, which I don't believe are allowed.
Ick... Something about that just rubs me the wrong way. I'll chalk it up to just a newbie play error, but normally when there's a night 0, all actions are available unless otherwise specified from the mod. (In this case, it was a no-kill night 0)
I am going to Fos: Cyan. This is because he is needlessly defending me. While I do appreciate it, it kind of makes me think that you know something that everyone else doesn't. If you can clear that up, after all, the only two roles that know stuff about other players are mafia and masons, and masons only know about other masons, unless you did a night zero cop check, which I don't beleive are allowed.
I actually find this pretty shady. He's defending you because you won't and you are suspicious? To me it looks like a pro defending a noob...but then again maybe thats what he wants it to looks like. Whatever, it just doesn't sit well with me, this betrayal that is.
Chuckle. Thanks for showcasing exactly what I've been talking about all along. With posts like that(the possibly inadvertant Cop fishing was particularly impressive), if I hadn't spoke out for you, you'd be a newb facing a huge wagon by now.
Ande: like I said, it was a gut feeling. something about how he was attacking SSB seemed malicious, as opposed to inquisitive. It wasn't anything strong enough to go on, which is why I didn't vote or FoS him.
You specifically said you think JSexton knew something. I asked you what you thought he could possibly know that was worth FoSing.
Chuckle. Thanks for showcasing exactly what I've been talking about all along. With posts like that(the possibly inadvertant Cop fishing was particularly impressive), if I hadn't spoke out for you, you'd be a newb facing a huge wagon by now.
Instead, my entire stance is entirely vindicated.
Unless he's, you know, scum. He's only confirmed town in your mind.
No, there's nothing to say that I think he is confirmed. Just that he continues to act like a newb townie would act, that last post being a fine example.
You specifically said you think JSexton knew something. I asked you what you thought he could possibly know that was worth FoSing.
just the general inside information that comes with being a mafia member. Based on his play it seemed like he was trying to scare the new kid into making a bad play that he could ride home for a lynch.
and looking back, I realize that I did vote him. so I must have thought it a lot worse than it really was...
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No, there's nothing to say that I think he is confirmed. Just that he continues to act like a newb townie would act, that last post being a fine example.
That makes no sense. You just said a couple posts ago that he'd be crucified for that post if you hadn't stepped in. Now you're saying it demonstrates how townie he is?
just the general inside information that comes with being a mafia member. Based on his play it seemed like he was trying to scare the new kid into making a bad play that he could ride home for a lynch.
You seem to think that when I'm mafia, I'm incredibly blatant and awful.
I think this conclusively proves that politicians really are mostly dirty old men. ^_-
Serious question to Niv, though -- why is it that your post seems to mostly contain points towards CM's questionable behaviour, but end with voting JSexton despite having listed no reasons other than /barn Cyan and 'he goes downhill after this'?
Really didn't want to retype out all of cyan's posts. I pretty much feel lke he does in this situation.
Just out of curiosity, can you summarize the case against JSexton for me? Just to, you know, confirm that you really vote him and not just barning someone else.
JSex attcked Bil over what was clearly a newb mistake, and then hammered cyan fro defending him.
also, on the thought of the clock, there would be n way that any good game could just end, therefore, i would say that we just pay mafia and ignore the clock at this point.
Ok, Hypothetical argument here. Let's say there is a "George W. Bush" role in this game. Would you categorize him as town because he's President of the United States? or would you categorize him as scum because his actions while in office have destabilized the entire Middle East, and thus increased global tensions. As I said, there's not enough info available this early to make sweeping judgements on who might and might not be town.
Edit while writing: RobRoy brings up a good point about the potential of a Timecop role changing the choice of a lynch.
Flavor speculation like this is total wifom and a waste of time imo. at least with no rolse dead yet.
also, if i missed anyhting, I am trying to be wuick as due to my vacatuion, which ends convenianly on monday ;-)
out of game refrence, i went to an auction tonight and got $6000 suite tickets for $450, and I'm stoked!
just the general inside information that comes with being a mafia member. Based on his play it seemed like he was trying to scare the new kid into making a bad play that he could ride home for a lynch.
and looking back, I realize that I did vote him. so I must have thought it a lot worse than it really was...
So, you are A)totally barning cyan B)saying conclusively that you earlier said somebody was total scum, even though you were cryptic and vague and C)totally barning cyan. Unvote, Vote CM
Bil's last post read really newb townie, like I did in my first game, luckily a newb because I argued horrible logic and got away with it as town. I think bil's likely town, but I don't think that we should take this and crucify Jsex for this, because the initial action was reasonable, and now he's stuck arguing with Cyan.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Isn't arguing with Cyan impossible to win? Anyways, Jsex looks very suspicious in my eyes. He attacks me for my comment/warning of the clock and in my eyes attempted to fish something out of me. Then he moves onto bilbro who is another "noob". It looks to me like he's trying to get an easy lynch more than anything, and therefore makes him look scummy in my eyes. FoS JSexton
I really don't like sandsoft_blue. Almost every post he makes reeks of having inside info. I'll be working on a detailed case later today.
Are you refering to my posts about the clock? As I said, it's a theory that I crafted from the "fluff" that SB gave us. I'm assuming that the french president was assumed "good". Maybe you should look into the fluff posts and it'll probably be easier for you to come to the same conclusion other than pointing a finger at me saying you don't like me.
@SSB: I have two problems with your responses to me. First, you kept apologizing about antagonizing me. Second, you kept playing the newb card to explain the accusations against you. Both of these do not sit well with me. You seriously came across to me as trying to downplay whatever were being leveled against you and avoid any extended arguments. This again lead to my original point; you are very conscious of your image, something of which I see as a scumtell.
Now, as to the reason I queried you. Your statement about the Doomsday Clock indicated a mentality of someone who is hyper-aware of it. I don't think anything we can consciously do in the game will affect the Clock as the Time-Mods are hidden. Therefore, any actions to play around it will only cripple the town's scum-hunting capabilities. As such, I see your action as someone with a vested interest in the Clock.
I am going to Fos: Cyan. This is because he is needlessly defending me. While I do appreciate it, it kind of makes me think that you know something that everyone else doesn't. If you can clear that up, after all, the only two roles that know stuff about other players are mafia and masons, and masons only know about other masons, unless you did a night zero cop check, which I don't beleive are allowed.
Voting No Lynch is not indicative of noobscum, it is simply indicative of someone being a noob period. Beyond that, it is a complete non-tell.
If anything, in this case, I would say it is a pro-town tell for him. He was clearly trying to be active in the game, he just didn't know where to seriously place his vote, and instead used a 'placeholder' vote.
I'm pretty sure I explained it immediately in that statement. I said that it's a null tell, and clarified to say that, in this case, if anything, it is a point in his favor, and explained why I felt that way. I mean, it's right there, in the post that you quoted.
And who knows whom would have been on an anti-Bilb wagon. But it would have happened. Have you ever seen a newb adequately defend him/her-self when put on the spot like that? I doubt it.
And don't run the 'we would have gained information from the wagon' bit with me, either. A bunch of overzealous townies would have gone after him and forced a claim, with maybe a couple of scum scattered amongst them. That is always how it goes early in the game.
For one thing, I never saw your message. Please don't use SSB as I don't think that it refers to me most of the time (in fact, SSB = super smash bros in my minD :P), but aside from that, I will now address your accusations/arguments.
1. Antagonizing? Wow, thats hardly what I would call it. Half of the statements in my post weren't even DIRECTED at you.
2. And as I stated in a previous post, I am concious of the fact that I don't want to totally noob out like I did in Alice mafia, which was just spam and random voting.
3. I do have an interest in the clock because it seems like none of you do. I believe its something that we should take into account because we have yet to figure out if
-a. Do both mafias get a night kill?
-b. How big can the time alterations be?
-c. Do people have powers pertaining to the amount of hours on the clock?
Both subpoint b and c have been brought up by other players. Subpoint a is my question. Again, I feel that your interrogations are a coming off as a bit strong against me for something that is merely a "feeling".
I would also like to state that again, i was not ignoring you but I really didn't see the SSB. Even if I did, it probably did not register in my mind. Please, in future posts, (this is to all players) use Sand in order to refer to me. I don't want another miss as I read through the posts, because apparently it can get me killed.
Considering that we were told that no one knows what their 'time value' is, I find it rather unlikely that anyone's powers pertain to the amount of time on the clock. There is too much variable in that.
And it's probable that both scum teams have an NK, but, speculating on this is useless. We'll know when we know.
The main problem with your posts is that the topics that you want to discuss are pointless. No benefit is gained from discussing them, it's just a distraction to the town.
That having been said, I think that SSB is well intended here, and I'm reading him as town.
3. I do have an interest in the clock because it seems like none of you do. I believe its something that we should take into account because we have yet to figure out if
-a. Do both mafias get a night kill?
-b. How big can the time alterations be?
-c. Do people have powers pertaining to the amount of hours on the clock?
Both subpoint b and c have been brought up by other players. Subpoint a is my question. Again, I feel that your interrogations are a coming off as a bit strong against me for something that is merely a "feeling".
We have no information on this, so it is impossible to know. Continuing to discuss it does nothing but boost your post count.
The main problem with your posts is that the topics that you want to discuss are pointless. No benefit is gained from discussing them, it's just a distraction to the town.
That having been said, I think that SSB is well intended here, and I'm reading him as town.
Isn't setup speculation, on day one, with noooo information at all, not a noob scum tell? The whole "trying to contribute without stepping on any toes" maneuver?
I am going to Fos: Cyan. This is because he is needlessly defending me. While I do appreciate it, it kind of makes me think that you know something that everyone else doesn't. If you can clear that up, after all, the only two roles that know stuff about other players are mafia and masons, and masons only know about other masons, unless you did a night zero cop check, which I don't beleive are allowed.
This is... horribly bad. Especially if it is what I think it is.
Really didn't want to retype out all of cyan's posts. I pretty much feel lke he does in this situation.
So your entire reason for voting was, in fact, /barn Cyan? You had actual points against someone else, points which you yourself took the trouble to observe and point out, and you instead vote JSexton for someone else's points?
JSex attcked Bil over what was clearly a newb mistake, and then hammered cyan fro defending him.
also, on the thought of the clock, there would be n way that any good game could just end, therefore, i would say that we just pay mafia and ignore the clock at this point.
This reads like 'go on, game the mod. I dare ya.'
Ignoring a known mafia win condition is a good way to lose horribly. Look at 24 Mafia.
Isn't arguing with Cyan impossible to win? Anyways, Jsex looks very suspicious in my eyes. He attacks me for my comment/warning of the clock and in my eyes attempted to fish something out of me. Then he moves onto bilbro who is another "noob". It looks to me like he's trying to get an easy lynch more than anything, and therefore makes him look scummy in my eyes. FoS JSexton
See, Cyan? You're famous!
It's not impossible, but it is difficult and time-consuming. It's generally easier to catch actual scum, since he'll generally turn his attention to them once their stories start falling apart.
Not too sure about JSexton, though. I'm not happy with his reasoning, but I don't think that makes him scummy. Yet.
3. I do have an interest in the clock because it seems like none of you do. I believe its something that we should take into account because we have yet to figure out if
-a. Do both mafias get a night kill?
-b. How big can the time alterations be?
-c. Do people have powers pertaining to the amount of hours on the clock?
Both subpoint b and c have been brought up by other players. Subpoint a is my question. Again, I feel that your interrogations are a coming off as a bit strong against me for something that is merely a "feeling".
I would also like to state that again, i was not ignoring you but I really didn't see the SSB. Even if I did, it probably did not register in my mind. Please, in future posts, (this is to all players) use Sand in order to refer to me. I don't want another miss as I read through the posts, because apparently it can get me killed.
By the way dagger, I'm not happy with you either.
As much as I agree that setup speculation can be helpful when non-traditional win conditions are involved, none of the above are helpful. a we'll most likely know tonight, b is unknown to everyone, and c is not information we want in the open, nor is it particularly helpful at this time. Because a and b are completely unknown and unhelpful, I don't consider this fishing, but be careful with what you ask next time. Secrecy is a precious resource to all sides.
There's only one piece of setup speculation that needs to be taken away today.
Isn't setup speculation, on day one, with noooo information at all, not a noob scum tell? The whole "trying to contribute without stepping on any toes" maneuver?
See above for why I don't consider it scummy. Also, why the overemphasis?
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3. I do have an interest in the clock because it seems like none of you do. I believe its something that we should take into account because we have yet to figure out if
-a. Do both mafias get a night kill?
-b. How big can the time alterations be?
-c. Do people have powers pertaining to the amount of hours on the clock?
Both subpoint b and c have been brought up by other players. Subpoint a is my question. Again, I feel that your interrogations are a coming off as a bit strong against me for something that is merely a "feeling".
I would also like to state that again, i was not ignoring you but I really didn't see the SSB. Even if I did, it probably did not register in my mind. Please, in future posts, (this is to all players) use Sand in order to refer to me. I don't want another miss as I read through the posts, because apparently it can get me killed.
By the way dagger, I'm not happy with you either.
With the information the mod has given us, there's no way we're going to figure out the answers to these questions, and this pursuit will likely involuntarily reveal information that doesn't need to be revealed.
My problem with this is that, while I can completely believe that you didn't actually plan to have today end with a no-lynch, your followup comment - "When some more people post, I'll make a decision." - doesn't support that. It actually implies that you were using No Lynch not as a real vote, and not as a joke, but as a placeholder. Care to reply to this?
I would really like a response to this.
On JSexton: I've played with him a couple times when he was town, and modded a game where he was mafia. His general playstyle is lower-key, and when he was scum he was even more so. I sincerely doubt that he'd have tried to roust up a wagon by provoking a noob on nothing. However, I could see him attacking a noob for a perceived slip as either town or scum. I think this is a non-tell for him. The responses don't seem to be out of line with someone who believes they are being attacked unfairly, either.
On Cyan: if I hadn't just gone through an entire game where he was acting as scummily agressive as this while being town, I'd be voting him right now. If Bilbroxain turns up scum at some point this game, I will be very worried about Cyan.
My guess is +/- 1 or 2 minutes. Having alterations with 3+ minutes could end the game early on. (1 Lynch + 2 nightkills, each -3 minutes = -1 minute on the clock)
I have the utmost confidence that it would not be possible for a night 1 kill as noted above. But, in pre-game discussion, it was also noted that people can add and subtract time at the same time, but it "goes on the stack separately"
i.e. - There's going to be people with time mods that may go something like: -4, but then +7. So if it's at 4, town loses, otherwise, there's a nice gain. My question is, one of these mafias, SK, ppl with NK powers, etc. has to have *first strike.* There's gotta be a kill order somehow. One of the nightkills has to have a strict precidence over the other over the other, etc. The mod can't just decide which time alteration he is going to apply first, there's gotta be some unknown rule that says how kills are dealt with; with the assumption that at some point we will see more than 1 night kill.
Heh. This is exactly what you said regarding SB, in TFC Mafia. Of course, he was scum. But then, so were you.
I don't think this actually means anything, but, it does seem ironic.
I doubt it means much. RobRoy was SK in Fiasco, and SK is usually just as interested in eliminating scum as town is. Same way scum wants to eliminate SK, sometimes even more than they want to eliminate town.
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just the general inside information that comes with being a mafia member. Based on his play it seemed like he was trying to scare the new kid into making a bad play that he could ride home for a lynch.
Out of curiosity, how can someone have inside information on alignment in a game with two mafias?
Isn't setup speculation, on day one, with noooo information at all, not a noob scum tell? The whole "trying to contribute without stepping on any toes" maneuver?
Uhh dude, if I knew how to contribute without stepping on any toes...well thats the thing...I don't know how to. Plus I feel like I am contributing something, even if it isn't relevant yet. Again, that point was in defense of myself, and my original post could be thought of as a reminder that the clock is not at 17 min. as I had previously thought at the start of the game.
I doubt it means much. RobRoy was SK in Fiasco, and SK is usually just as interested in eliminating scum as town is. Same way scum wants to eliminate SK, sometimes even more than they want to eliminate town.
Nah. The scum actually want to figure out whom the SK is, and let him live as long as possible. The majority of an SK's kills are going to be against townies, simply because there are so many more of them. Games where the SK dies Day 1 are significantly harder for the mafia to win.
Not that this is relevant to anything in this game, and I don't actually think RobRoy is scum, the wording of it all just came across to me as ironic.
Additionally, I am ready to Unvote now. I was suspicious of JSexton when I voted him, for reasons that I stated. But I definitely played this up some, to see if anyone would go for it.
Accordingly, Vote charm master. Not only did he 'go for it', but, his reasoning for doing so is sketchy at best.
Out of curiosity, how can someone have inside information on alignment in a game with two mafias?
...do you really need someone to answer this for you? Especially after a look at the descriptions of said mafia?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Well after reading a few games, i've noticed two trends revolving around cyan. Arguing with him doesn't really work well and about 1/3 of the first "random" votes go to him.
...do you really need someone to answer this for you? Especially after a look at the descriptions of said mafia?
Charm is accusing JSexton of inside information in trying to get a townie mislynched. I'm curious how that is a point against JSexton, since even if he was scum, he wouldn't know Bil is a townie for sure.
Nah. The scum actually want to figure out whom the SK is, and let him live as long as possible. The majority of an SK's kills are going to be against townies, simply because there are so many more of them. Games where the SK dies Day 1 are significantly harder for the mafia to win.
I disagree with this, but that's a point of mafia theory and is irrelevant to this game.
Additionally, I am ready to Unvote now. I was suspicious of JSexton when I voted him, for reasons that I stated. But I definitely played this up some, to see if anyone would go for it.
Accordingly, Vote charm master. Not only did he 'go for it', but, his reasoning for doing so is sketchy at best.
I don't disagree with this, however. Not enough to vote yet, but both CM and Niv basically just /barned your argument with little additional content of their own. Niv even added points against someone else instead.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Charm is accusing JSexton of inside information in trying to get a townie mislynched. I'm curious how that is a point against JSexton, since even if he was scum, he wouldn't know Bil is a townie for sure.
Again, look at the descriptions of the two mafia. They don't know for sure Bilbroxain is a townie, yes, but I'm pretty sure the two mafia are just as happy to kill off each other.
That being said, CM's point is ridiculously weak.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Again, look at the descriptions of the two mafia. They don't know for sure Bilbroxain is a townie, yes, but I'm pretty sure the two mafia are just as happy to kill off each other.
Correct, which means they don't need to fabricate weak tells to kill townies. They can genuinely look for scum tells in people, and so the inside information argument holds no weight.
If he lets things play out more his case could be stronger. It also creates the opportunity to see who else might need looking into (but I was thinking more of the former). By coming in quickly he does interfere with the reactions, and if Cyan believes the reactions are useless he could dismiss them later.
As for what's been going on, I don't have a great read on anybody. Bil is suspect, but I don't like how Cyan has been talking for him. At this point, Cyan is seeming scummiest to me, but it's not much more than my gut-jerk to a player defending another.
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Literally every word in this post is wrong.
Literally.
Oh okay, since you said so, magically it must be true. I wish that the giant 'eyeroll' smilie still existed here so I can use it now. Anyway.
First, some clarification. Putting one vote on someone cannot indicate a 'vote to gauge reactions', because virtually nobody reacts to a single vote, especially so early in the game. Only a newb will ever do so, or maybe an atrociously bad player. Either way, any 'information' that you get from pressuring them is not going to result in a real tell anyway. *Especially* if the person is a newb. The only logical reason to put a pressure vote there is because A)you realize that they are a newb(which was 100% obvious in this case) and B)you anticipate that they will react badly. This is simply not a pro-town action. Ever.
And yes, I agree with Cyan, applying a 1 vote pressure early in the game to a noob in order to gauge reaction doesn't seem like it's ever going to really prove anything.
Gee, then maybe it's a good thing I didn't merely vote, but also asked him questions and drew him out based on his posts, huh?
I don't know why you're using scare quotes here. Do you even realize that you're attempting to downplay the underlying skill of playing mafia? Reading words, interpreting them, and drawing conclusionds about a persons motivations. That's what mafia is.
RobRoy already explained this. N00b scum and n00b town react differently, even if the differences are subtle.
Look, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Are you the kind of player who relies only on night actions and flavor to try and find scum?
Trying to railroad newbies is a scum tell.
Nice try at making your effort look more benevolent than it really was. All you asked him is what other games he's been in, then he answered, then you immediately declared that you didn't believe his previous post, and voted him. This is all in the thread, and does not qualify as trying to 'draw him out', unless you mean trying to draw a bad reaction out of him. If you were really a concerned town, you would have given him the chance to answer and explain and THEN voted. Your actions absolutely stink of opportunism.
I know how the game works. I also know that bullying some newbie is not going to make any of this happen.
Clearly you haven't seen/participated in alot of lynches against newbs. Someone that is newb scum is inevitably going to make this obvious, it doesn't take thug plays like the one that you tried here to draw them out. The vast majority of lynches that occur against newbs are against town ones that simply don't know any better. Sometimes we just have to let this go, but the path that you were taking was so absolutely obvious that it was pitiful.
I'm trying to accomplish not allowing a scum(that's you) steamroll some townie who is too new to know any better.
Look, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. Are you the kind of player who relies only on night actions and flavor to try and find scum?
Unvote Cyan, Vote CharmMaster at least until he answers ande's question. I can't imagine an answer that would convince me to move my vote, though.
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Ick... Something about that just rubs me the wrong way. I'll chalk it up to just a newbie play error, but normally when there's a night 0, all actions are available unless otherwise specified from the mod. (In this case, it was a no-kill night 0)
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
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Chuckle. Thanks for showcasing exactly what I've been talking about all along. With posts like that(the possibly inadvertant Cop fishing was particularly impressive), if I hadn't spoke out for you, you'd be a newb facing a huge wagon by now.
Instead, my entire stance is entirely vindicated.
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Unless he's, you know, scum. He's only confirmed town in your mind.
just the general inside information that comes with being a mafia member. Based on his play it seemed like he was trying to scare the new kid into making a bad play that he could ride home for a lynch.
and looking back, I realize that I did vote him. so I must have thought it a lot worse than it really was...
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That makes no sense. You just said a couple posts ago that he'd be crucified for that post if you hadn't stepped in. Now you're saying it demonstrates how townie he is?
You seem to think that when I'm mafia, I'm incredibly blatant and awful.
I assure you that's not the case.
Really didn't want to retype out all of cyan's posts. I pretty much feel lke he does in this situation.
JSex attcked Bil over what was clearly a newb mistake, and then hammered cyan fro defending him.
also, on the thought of the clock, there would be n way that any good game could just end, therefore, i would say that we just pay mafia and ignore the clock at this point.
Flavor speculation like this is total wifom and a waste of time imo. at least with no rolse dead yet.
also, if i missed anyhting, I am trying to be wuick as due to my vacatuion, which ends convenianly on monday ;-)
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So, you are A)totally barning cyan B)saying conclusively that you earlier said somebody was total scum, even though you were cryptic and vague and C)totally barning cyan.
Unvote, Vote CM
Bil's last post read really newb townie, like I did in my first game, luckily a newb because I argued horrible logic and got away with it as town. I think bil's likely town, but I don't think that we should take this and crucify Jsex for this, because the initial action was reasonable, and now he's stuck arguing with Cyan.
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Are you refering to my posts about the clock? As I said, it's a theory that I crafted from the "fluff" that SB gave us. I'm assuming that the french president was assumed "good". Maybe you should look into the fluff posts and it'll probably be easier for you to come to the same conclusion other than pointing a finger at me saying you don't like me.
You're ignoring me. I'm not happy with you.
Unvote No Lynch, Vote sandsoft_blue
Wow. This oozes townieness.
And the huge wagon will comprise who exactly?
And the difference between JSexy and Akid is...?
BTW, I thought you changed to FireFox?
@Cyan:
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And who knows whom would have been on an anti-Bilb wagon. But it would have happened. Have you ever seen a newb adequately defend him/her-self when put on the spot like that? I doubt it.
And don't run the 'we would have gained information from the wagon' bit with me, either. A bunch of overzealous townies would have gone after him and forced a claim, with maybe a couple of scum scattered amongst them. That is always how it goes early in the game.
1. Antagonizing? Wow, thats hardly what I would call it. Half of the statements in my post weren't even DIRECTED at you.
2. And as I stated in a previous post, I am concious of the fact that I don't want to totally noob out like I did in Alice mafia, which was just spam and random voting.
3. I
3. I do have an interest in the clock because it seems like none of you do. I believe its something that we should take into account because we have yet to figure out if
-a. Do both mafias get a night kill?
-b. How big can the time alterations be?
-c. Do people have powers pertaining to the amount of hours on the clock?
Both subpoint b and c have been brought up by other players. Subpoint a is my question. Again, I feel that your interrogations are a coming off as a bit strong against me for something that is merely a "feeling".
I would also like to state that again, i was not ignoring you but I really didn't see the SSB. Even if I did, it probably did not register in my mind. Please, in future posts, (this is to all players) use Sand in order to refer to me. I don't want another miss as I read through the posts, because apparently it can get me killed.
By the way dagger, I'm not happy with you either.
And it's probable that both scum teams have an NK, but, speculating on this is useless. We'll know when we know.
The main problem with your posts is that the topics that you want to discuss are pointless. No benefit is gained from discussing them, it's just a distraction to the town.
That having been said, I think that SSB is well intended here, and I'm reading him as town.
We have no information on this, so it is impossible to know. Continuing to discuss it does nothing but boost your post count.
Isn't setup speculation, on day one, with noooo information at all, not a noob scum tell? The whole "trying to contribute without stepping on any toes" maneuver?
This is... horribly bad. Especially if it is what I think it is.
FOS: Bilbroxain
So your entire reason for voting was, in fact, /barn Cyan? You had actual points against someone else, points which you yourself took the trouble to observe and point out, and you instead vote JSexton for someone else's points?
This reads like 'go on, game the mod. I dare ya.'
Ignoring a known mafia win condition is a good way to lose horribly. Look at 24 Mafia.
See, Cyan? You're famous!
It's not impossible, but it is difficult and time-consuming. It's generally easier to catch actual scum, since he'll generally turn his attention to them once their stories start falling apart.
Not too sure about JSexton, though. I'm not happy with his reasoning, but I don't think that makes him scummy. Yet.
o_O Was that worth a vote? And one of these days someone is going to register an account named 'No Lynch' just to mess with you people...
More seriously, though. Why exactly are you suspicious enough of sandsoft to land a vote on him?
As much as I agree that setup speculation can be helpful when non-traditional win conditions are involved, none of the above are helpful. a we'll most likely know tonight, b is unknown to everyone, and c is not information we want in the open, nor is it particularly helpful at this time. Because a and b are completely unknown and unhelpful, I don't consider this fishing, but be careful with what you ask next time. Secrecy is a precious resource to all sides.
There's only one piece of setup speculation that needs to be taken away today.
See above for why I don't consider it scummy. Also, why the overemphasis?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
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With the information the mod has given us, there's no way we're going to figure out the answers to these questions, and this pursuit will likely involuntarily reveal information that doesn't need to be revealed.
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Why aren't you happy with Dagger?
I would really like a response to this.
On JSexton: I've played with him a couple times when he was town, and modded a game where he was mafia. His general playstyle is lower-key, and when he was scum he was even more so. I sincerely doubt that he'd have tried to roust up a wagon by provoking a noob on nothing. However, I could see him attacking a noob for a perceived slip as either town or scum. I think this is a non-tell for him. The responses don't seem to be out of line with someone who believes they are being attacked unfairly, either.
On Cyan: if I hadn't just gone through an entire game where he was acting as scummily agressive as this while being town, I'd be voting him right now. If Bilbroxain turns up scum at some point this game, I will be very worried about Cyan.
Heh. This is exactly what you said regarding SB, in TFC Mafia. Of course, he was scum. But then, so were you.
I don't think this actually means anything, but, it does seem ironic.
I have the utmost confidence that it would not be possible for a night 1 kill as noted above. But, in pre-game discussion, it was also noted that people can add and subtract time at the same time, but it "goes on the stack separately"
i.e. - There's going to be people with time mods that may go something like: -4, but then +7. So if it's at 4, town loses, otherwise, there's a nice gain. My question is, one of these mafias, SK, ppl with NK powers, etc. has to have *first strike.* There's gotta be a kill order somehow. One of the nightkills has to have a strict precidence over the other over the other, etc. The mod can't just decide which time alteration he is going to apply first, there's gotta be some unknown rule that says how kills are dealt with; with the assumption that at some point we will see more than 1 night kill.
Well it was more of a joke. He said "You ignored me. I'm not happy with you." So i just decided to say the same thing.
I doubt it means much. RobRoy was SK in Fiasco, and SK is usually just as interested in eliminating scum as town is. Same way scum wants to eliminate SK, sometimes even more than they want to eliminate town.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
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Uhh dude, if I knew how to contribute without stepping on any toes...well thats the thing...I don't know how to. Plus I feel like I am contributing something, even if it isn't relevant yet. Again, that point was in defense of myself, and my original post could be thought of as a reminder that the clock is not at 17 min. as I had previously thought at the start of the game.
What leads you to this conclusion?
Nah. The scum actually want to figure out whom the SK is, and let him live as long as possible. The majority of an SK's kills are going to be against townies, simply because there are so many more of them. Games where the SK dies Day 1 are significantly harder for the mafia to win.
Not that this is relevant to anything in this game, and I don't actually think RobRoy is scum, the wording of it all just came across to me as ironic.
Additionally, I am ready to Unvote now. I was suspicious of JSexton when I voted him, for reasons that I stated. But I definitely played this up some, to see if anyone would go for it.
Accordingly, Vote charm master. Not only did he 'go for it', but, his reasoning for doing so is sketchy at best.
...do you really need someone to answer this for you? Especially after a look at the descriptions of said mafia?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Well after reading a few games, i've noticed two trends revolving around cyan. Arguing with him doesn't really work well and about 1/3 of the first "random" votes go to him.
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I disagree with this, but that's a point of mafia theory and is irrelevant to this game.
I don't disagree with this, however. Not enough to vote yet, but both CM and Niv basically just /barned your argument with little additional content of their own. Niv even added points against someone else instead.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Again, look at the descriptions of the two mafia. They don't know for sure Bilbroxain is a townie, yes, but I'm pretty sure the two mafia are just as happy to kill off each other.
That being said, CM's point is ridiculously weak.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
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last updated 03/23/11