This whole case revolves around me voting Cyan for bad reasons, essentially. I've stated my reasoning for doing so. I think it makes sense; most people think it is scummy. I can see how it is scummy, if you look at it a certain way. Given that Cyan hasn't made any further screw-ups (that I can see) I will [unvote]
Peer pressure causing you to change your opinions doesn't exactly dissuade me.
Oh wow....yeah now I'm convinced as well. I went back and reread all the posts (there aren't many) and the flailing and backpedaling coupled with the initial posts and his LAST post which almost sounds like an admission of defeat has led me to believe that he is scum.
Can't say I like how fast the wagon picked up. I get the feeling from Callaway that he is town. His posts seem genuine enough, even if they are quite bad.
I think this comes from a pro-town mindset as obviously if he was scum he wouldn't even be thinking about giving up scumbuddies and everyone would understand that. This post comes from someone who is thinking about the best interests of the town.
He also does not seem to be acting as composed as he was in Newbie 29 where he was scum. The difference in behavior however can be attributed to more pressure being put on him here than there, but I think it's indicative of town.
I think this comes from a pro-town mindset as obviously if he was scum he wouldn't even be thinking about giving up scumbuddies and everyone would understand that. This post comes from someone who is thinking about the best interests of the town.
I actually noticed this same thing but figured a baker's dozen posts that seem to have a scummy reasoning behind them > 1 that has a townie reasoning.
Can't say I like how fast the wagon picked up. I get the feeling from Callaway that he is town. His posts seem genuine enough, even if they are quite bad.
Seems awkwardly written and scummy because this is certainly not Skander's typical writing style (just look at his other posts this game and others). Could be forced or a similar situation I found myself in when I played my second game as scum (cough *ongoing game* cough).
Callaway isn't defending himself, replied with spam, and the the whole "woe is me" deal, yet Skander decided to ignore all that and instead micro-analyze his one "townie" post that's a whole 9 words long. Seriously, he took 2 sentences to analyze "I am not scum."
Not really sure what the heck I'm supposed to do here other than claim, in a little while. I can't delete the (supposedly) scummy posts, as nice as it would be, and I don't see any other way to convince you people I'm townie.
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Not really sure what the heck I'm supposed to do here other than claim, in a little while. I can't delete the (supposedly) scummy posts, as nice as it would be, and I don't see any other way to convince you people I'm townie.
Defending yourself would be a good place to start; a claim should be your last resort.
Seems awkwardly written and scummy because this is certainly not Skander's typical writing style (just look at his other posts this game and others). Could be forced or a similar situation I found myself in when I played my second game as scum (cough *ongoing game* cough).
You'll have to explain a bit more than that. What is awkwardly written about it? What is scummy about it?
Callaway isn't defending himself, replied with spam, and the the whole "woe is me" deal, yet Skander decided to ignore all that and instead micro-analyze his one "townie" post that's a whole 9 words long. Seriously, he took 2 sentences to analyze "I am not scum."
Well obviously it wasn't enough because you missed the point. It's not the "I am not scum", I could care less for such Seppelisms. It's the fact that he said he would if he could.
And you chose to ignore the fact that I acknowledged that his posts have been bad - I just get a bad townie feeling from it as opposed to a bad scum. Hence me saying that his posts feel genuine.
The point about his "I would if I could" post is a stand-alone argument.
I don't like the spin you've put around the facts, to dismiss my statements as irrational.
@Andeljiah: I don't see why I can't agree with a point Cyan makes and still thinks he scum. I found Some One suspicious, but at the same time found Cyan more suspicious.
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I disagree that this statement holds any weight. Clearly he's not going to ruin the game for his team simply because he is getting pressured.
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@Andeljiah: I don't see why I can't agree with a point Cyan makes and still thinks he scum. I found Some One suspicious, but at the same time found Cyan more suspicious.
For one, you're assuming that they are busing each other off the bat, which seems unlikely at best. Secondly, you're valuing the opinion of a player you suspect. Scum, by definition, are trying to mislead the town. Therefore following them is bad.
I disagree that this statement holds any weight. Clearly he's not going to ruin the game for his team simply because he is getting pressured.
Exactly my point. Nobody would give up their scumbuddies. Saying he would if he could is plain wrong, he wouldn't - if he was scum. He's thinking, "Oh if I knew the scum's identity I would give them up in a heartbeat".
I can't explain how hard I laughed as I scrolled down to see Kraj's gigantic L. My cat is scared.
vote Chris, dicevoters have no spine
Lynch doubler...double the lynches for one day? Doubling the amount of votes needed for a lynch might actually be possible depending on replacement list shenanigans.
Also, you guys should be aware that as far as I can judge, replacement list players don't have a town or mafia alignment prior to entering the game. My win con is to compete for "favour points". So if folks want to do things that will send those my way, that would be spiffy.
That would be more helpful if we knew how the heck to do so.
That was a fast daykill. I don't really understand the need for it but neither do I think that it makes Cyan scum.
The replacement being allowed to talk is interesting and while it would appear that they have no alignments the fact that they have wincon's means they have their own agenda. As such they should not be blindly trusted.
While I agree with the theory and sentiment regarding the replacements (especially Azrael, really), I find it highly pertinent that you chose to immediately throw a spike at them before they'd even done much of anything.
I'd rather not lynch someone without knowing the reasons why. But hey if you can get enough people to blindly jump on the wagon on the pretense that they see what you see, go for it!
Hmmm. Sarcasm.
Also, you seem unusually convinced Callaway is town...
Can't say I like how fast the wagon picked up. I get the feeling from Callaway that he is town. His posts seem genuine enough, even if they are quite bad.
In response to Az asking him for scumbuddies:
I think this comes from a pro-town mindset as obviously if he was scum he wouldn't even be thinking about giving up scumbuddies and everyone would understand that. This post comes from someone who is thinking about the best interests of the town.
You obviously haven't seen the poor sportsmanship some players can exhibit. But that aside -- where in the world did he say anything about 'giving up scumbuddies'? He mentioned a past game where he hammered a scumbuddy (nowhere near the same thing) and then threw a Seppel-ism in response to Azrael's joke-poke. Your above argument, therefore, fails due to lack of relevance to the actual matter.
He also does not seem to be acting as composed as he was in Newbie 29 where he was scum. The difference in behavior however can be attributed to more pressure being put on him here than there, but I think it's indicative of town.
From what I read, he definitely wasn't very composed in Chess Mafia the moment pressure was placed on him. Are you reading him right? Or... purposely reading him wrong?
Not really sure how to defend against any of this... my first attempt at defending against andelijah apparently was an epic fail so I really think digging myself into a deeper hole is not the best idea, and digging is exactly what I'll be doing if I try to defend myself. But still, all I'll say is this: I am not scum. This whole case revolves around me voting Cyan for bad reasons, essentially. I've stated my reasoning for doing so. I think it makes sense; most people think it is scummy. I can see how it is scummy, if you look at it a certain way. Given that Cyan hasn't made any further screw-ups (that I can see) I will
Au contraire. The initial poke may have been such, but I'm fairly certain the rest of the case up till now has been because of your increasingly bad responses to both questions in particular and pressure in general. That, and behavioural tells like the above quick reversal of opinion -- almost as classic a scumtell as the 'hammer a scumbuddy' you pulled in Chess Mafia.
I could think of no reason, besides sheer madness, that you would daykill loran as you did. I read through the thread and thought very nice play scum, frame Cyan and leave us to debate your guilt. But I was thinking to logically. I am starting to see why you are lynched day 1 so often, I thought people just hated you for previous play; my mistake for being so naive.
Ad hominem ahoy, matey. While I have my own problems with Cyan's playstyle, this is the limit of your contribution?
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
While I agree with the theory and sentiment regarding the replacements (especially Azrael, really), I find it highly pertinent that you chose to immediately throw a spike at them before they'd even done much of anything.
Au contraire, as you say. Best to get it out before they do anything as opposed to afterward when it may be too late.
Hmmm. Sarcasm.
Also, you seem unusually convinced Callaway is town...
Not at this point, no. Where do you get that from?
At this point all I've seen is two people say Callaway is scum and when asked for reasons do not expound upon it - not much to make me want to vote him. Incidentally, this is also where the sarcasm plays in - I was slightly annoyed about the continued push against Callaway with no reasoning.
You obviously haven't seen the poor sportsmanship some players can exhibit. But that aside -- where in the world did he say anything about 'giving up scumbuddies'? He mentioned a past game where he hammered a scumbuddy (nowhere near the same thing) and then threw a Seppel-ism in response to Azrael's joke-poke. Your above argument, therefore, fails due to lack of relevance to the actual matter.
As asked him to give up his scumbuddies. Callaway responded "I would if I could..."
From what I read, he definitely wasn't very composed in Chess Mafia the moment pressure was placed on him. Are you reading him right? Or... purposely reading him wrong?
I'm talking about D1 or so when he was under some pressure and was calm about it - not after he hammered his scumbuddy and it was obvious that he was scum. Although I guess you can say he's taking it the same way here thinking that he's been exposed.
Not at this point, no. Where do you get that from?
At this point all I've seen is two people say Callaway is scum and when asked for reasons do not expound upon it - not much to make me want to vote him. Incidentally, this is also where the sarcasm plays in - I was slightly annoyed about the continued push against Callaway with no reasoning.
* desCoures raises an eyebrow.
I don't know, I could have been getting it from the 'I think he's bad town' because he reads 'genuine to me'. That sounds very certain he's town, no? Is there a reason for that?
I also think Azrael and andelijah have both posted mini-PBPAs since then. What's your opinion of Callaway now?
As asked him to give up his scumbuddies. Callaway responded "I would if I could..."
....considering that, as you put it, a 'Seppel-ism' immediately followed, I don't put much stock in that. It was in direct response to a query from Azrael about giving up scumbuddies. It fails as any kind of tell in that regard, and I believe I noted as such in my original post.
I'm talking about D1 or so when he was under some pressure and was calm about it - not after he hammered his scumbuddy and it was obvious that he was scum. Although I guess you can say he's taking it the same way here thinking that he's been exposed.
Yes. Yes I can say that.
I can also say, from the after-game chat, that he hadn't thought hammering his scumbuddy would make it obvious he was scum. Thus the comparison of mindset to this case is valid, meta as it may be.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Not really sure how to defend against any of this... my first attempt at defending against andelijah apparently was an epic fail so I really think digging myself into a deeper hole is not the best idea, and digging is exactly what I'll be doing if I try to defend myself. But still, all I'll say is this: I am not scum. This whole case revolves around me voting Cyan for bad reasons, essentially. I've stated my reasoning for doing so. I think it makes sense; most people think it is scummy. I can see how it is scummy, if you look at it a certain way. Given that Cyan hasn't made any further screw-ups (that I can see) I will
Callaway didn't seem too bad up to this point, but this post is pretty bad.
Defend yourself! People are criticizing your actions - say why you took those actions. Explain why you made the posts you did. And don't unvote someone because they haven't screwed up in a while - have some conviction. Being pushed around is a sign of weakness, and that usually means you are lying.
After the rest of his I'm not entirely convinced - he seems to think that his claim is his best chance of defense. My opinion should be cemented by his claim.
I didn't see the need for a vote. Cyan usually isn't one to succumb to minor vote pressure, especially when he is confident in his stance. After the dust settled on that, I wanted to see how involved Azrael etc are in the game.
Some One intrigues me. Can't put my finger on it, but its something about his "oh by the way" posts that bugs me.
Why do some people still think Cyan didn't kill loran? Did I miss something, or has daykilling SK paranoia gripped the town?
Personal note: Busiest work week of the year for me (including this past weekend and the upcoming one). Posts may come slower than normal but I'm around.
You're not quite using that right. 'Au contraire' means 'on the contrary'.
The above can also be construed as fearmongering. Are you a conspiracy theorist?
Not fearmongering, just a better time to get out what I want to say.
* desCoures raises an eyebrow.
I don't know, I could have been getting it from the 'I think he's bad town' because he reads 'genuine to me'. That sounds very certain he's town, no? Is there a reason for that?
I also think Azrael and andelijah have both posted mini-PBPAs since then. What's your opinion of Callaway now?
I may be misunderstanding something but I thought you were saying at that point (at the time of the post you quoted) I already seemed convinced that Callaway was town, which was obviously not true.
I find nothing wrong with the PBPA's. They are valid points against Callaway. However as I said before I don't get scum mindset from his posts. I'm going to reread the whole thing now to get a better feel for him.
....considering that, as you put it, a 'Seppel-ism' immediately followed, I don't put much stock in that. It was in direct response to a query from Azrael about giving up scumbuddies. It fails as any kind of tell in that regard, and I believe I noted as such in my original post.
Perhaps, I still feel it remains valid though,
Yes. Yes I can say that.
I can also say, from the after-game chat, that he hadn't thought hammering his scumbuddy would make it obvious he was scum. Thus the comparison of mindset to this case is valid, meta as it may be.
My want to vote really matter at this point, but I'd like to here Callaway's claim. It should be pretty obvious from there what his allignment is. I think he's scummy, but my only expirience with him is poor posting leading to a mislynch of a vanilla townie in Newb #28.
Other Thoughts:
I think desCoures has something on Skander. He's difficult to read as scum, but the only thing he does do is stick hios neck out for them a little too much (from what I know). A clear example is in Youkai Academy reguarding Ace. I absolutely don't think there's enoug there for a vote, but IGMEOY: Skander
I'd still like the replacements to answer my question here:
@Replacements that can post: Is that your only ability?
Judging by the evidence that we can vote for them, I think it's a fair question to ask.
Some One in post #158 is voicing a concern that seems (to me) to be only a real concern for scum. At this point (If the replacements are vanilla besides), they can only really harm scum by contributing to scum hunting, which is only compounded if Callaway is scum. I suppose this is edging a bit far on WIFOM, but I guess I felt it had some merit.
Ande, Az, and Ged have all brought up some good points (I guess it's more the same point) on kpaca that he's failed to address so far as well.
Some One in post #158 is voicing a concern that seems (to me) to be only a real concern for scum. At this point (If the replacements are vanilla besides), they can only really harm scum bycontributing to scum hunting, which is only compounded if Callaway is scum. I suppose this is edging a bit far on WIFOM, but I guess I felt it had some merit.
I strongly disagree with this post. Considering the fact we really don't know much about the replacements, they could have some wincons that go against the town, as well as some abilities that are naturally anti-town. Certainly they cannot all be pro-town.
I think desCoures has something on Skander. He's difficult to read as scum, but the only thing he does do is stick hios neck out for them a little too much (from what I know). A clear example is in Youkai Academy reguarding Ace. I absolutely don't think there's enoug there for a vote, but IGMEOY: Skander
In Youkai all I did was bus my buddies. Where did I stick my neck out for anyone? Of course that was an entirely different situation anyway since I knew that bussing my buddies would get me an extra kill, but I still didn't stick my neck out for anyone.
In Youkai all I did was bus my buddies. Where did I stick my neck out for anyone? Of course that was an entirely different situation anyway since I knew that bussing my buddies would get me an extra kill, but I still didn't stick my neck out for anyone.
I felt you stuck your neck out in reguards to Ace in Youkai. It wasn't "ZOMG I think Ace is town!", but you definately rushed forward a bit.
I understand that the games are different, but my real point is that I don't see why you are thinking Callaway is bad town in your posts just you saying that you feel he has a townie mindset.
I strongly disagree with this post. Considering the fact we really don't know much about the replacements, they could have some wincons that go against the town, as well as some abilities that are naturally anti-town. Certainly they cannot all be pro-town.
I guess I don't see much of a reason to think that initially. To each their own, but there's no reason to let paranoia set in so much.
I guess I don't see much of a reason to think that initially. To each their own, but there's no reason to let paranoia set in so much.
It's the fact that everything is not as clear-cut as Azrael may have made it initially seem. It may be clear cut for him, but that's probably not the case across the board for all replacements. Because they can be voted for and presumably lynched, it means the town must have some viable reasons to lynch replacements.
It's the fact that everything is not as clear-cut as Azrael may have made it initially seem. It may be clear cut for him, but that's probably not the case across the board for all replacements. Because they can be voted for and presumably lynched, it means the town must have some viable reasons to lynch replacements.
Fair enough. I will also say that it's disconcerning that Robroy is claiming that he cannot be lynched like Az appearently can be (I had missed that before). I still don't see a reason to worry yet, but I suppose I am being too accepting.
I felt you stuck your neck out in reguards to Ace in Youkai. It wasn't "ZOMG I think Ace is town!", but you definately rushed forward a bit.
I still don't agree with this. Some links would be nice.
I understand that the games are different, but my real point is that I don't see why you are thinking Callaway is bad town in your posts just you saying that you feel he has a townie mindset.
Yeah, I understand that this is bad. I can't really expound on it though since there really isn't anything else to go on. What I can compare it to is Persona Mafia (warning, it's ongoing so don't really talk about it), where Toastboy made a lot of bad moves D1 but I still felt that he was just newb town.
I've gone over Callaway's posts and they are quite bad. There is nothing I can point to as specifically telling me town aside from the "I would if I could" post and even that's debatable.
I guess it comes down to his claim now; if it matches something I've noticed or not.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Can't say I like how fast the wagon picked up. I get the feeling from Callaway that he is town. His posts seem genuine enough, even if they are quite bad.
9, 10, 11 words
With:
I think this comes from a pro-town mindset as obviously if he was scum he wouldn't even be thinking about giving up scumbuddies and everyone would understand that. This post comes from someone who is thinking about the best interests of the town.
He also does not seem to be acting as composed as he was in Newbie 29 where he was scum. The difference in behavior however can be attributed to more pressure being put on him here than there, but I think it's indicative of town.
28, 14, 20, 25 words
It's not just the fact your first 3 sentences are shorter than your last 4, but also the fact you spent more words analyzing a Seppel-type post of his than the entirety of his behaviors and the bandwagon on him. If you truly felt he was town, I believe you would have had more conviction and said more than a blanket statement of your feelings. You know enough to know that 1 town post (that is by no means a clear-cut indication of towniness) doesn't offset a dozen others, and thus, your reaction to the Callaway wagon seems atypical and irrational in the way you used your words to analyze the one very brief post that you think indicates townieness, yet not elaborate on how his scum posts really aren't all that bad.
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Vote Count:
Callaway - 9 (Ace, andelijah, ChrisXIV , Cyan, Ged, greymon90210, kpaca, Pale Mage, Some One)
RobRoy - 1 (SpotofPrey)
after a quick re-read of the thread, I guess were waiting for callaway to claim.
if nothing else, FoS NomAnor for "forgetting" (s)he was in the game. right...
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Hey y'all, i see you're all waiting on Callaway to post so... uhm... At this point, im kind of out of the game due to a baby situation, so ill have something more "in the game" within the next 24 hours.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Okay, so after going back, I discovered we are waiting for a claim.
However, there are a couple other things I can comment on while we wait.
I don't really see the case against Skander. Although just saying someone "feels like town" is not particularly helpful, I have not found anything he has posted to be suspicious.
As for the claim of "fearmongering," I think Skander was quite right we should not blindly trust the replacements.
Sure, they can be helpful, but we have no reason to assume they are town--or even neutral searching for "favour points," and so we should be careful, treating them pretty much as we would any other participant.
Anyway, now waiting on claim.
Oh, and if anyone has a spare name, I could use one. I seem to have forgotten mine.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
? Could you explain what you mean by this a bit more?
By the time I got on he was already within claim range. I'm not going to vote from someone at L-2. I just wanted to voice my opinion that I felt he deserved a vote, and I wanted to hear a claim. Also, in Newb #28 his town claim should hav ebeen obvious, but I was blind to it at the time. I figure his claim will be fairly transparent here as well.
The way you wrote it is very brief compared to your typical style of writing.
Compare:
9, 10, 11 words
With:
28, 14, 20, 25 words
It's not just the fact your first 3 sentences are shorter than your last 4, but also the fact you spent more words analyzing a Seppel-type post of his than the entirety of his behaviors and the bandwagon on him. If you truly felt he was town, I believe you would have had more conviction and said more than a blanket statement of your feelings. You know enough to know that 1 town post (that is by no means a clear-cut indication of towniness) doesn't offset a dozen others, and thus, your reaction to the Callaway wagon seems atypical and irrational in the way you used your words to analyze the one very brief post that you think indicates townieness, yet not elaborate on how his scum posts really aren't all that bad.
Hmm. That was more reasonable than I expected.
I do feel that Callaway is town, however I do not have much to go on to prove that. The wagon on him grew very quickly however and all the sarcastic comments directed toward him didn't make me think that people were looking too hard at whether he may just be a frusturated townie.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Because if someone does know my name, I expect I get some benefit from it.
Hm... I believed that the mechanics of the game implied this was true for, like, the majority of players at least. AKA if anyone knows mine, I'd be much obliged.
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I figure his claim will be fairly transparent here as well.
This is pretty much what I was looking for. Your comment about his claim being transparent of his alignment seemed weird since this is becoming increasingly less true around MTGS.
I am House of Usher. Once per night I can choose to track a see certain player and see who they target. Additionally, once per game I can see what ability they use as well.
Essentially, I am a Townie Tracker.
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In Youkai all I did was bus my buddies. Where did I stick my neck out for anyone? Of course that was an entirely different situation anyway since I knew that bussing my buddies would get me an extra kill, but I still didn't stick my neck out for anyone.
I really don't approve of players giving unwarranted meta arguments for themselves. Fos: Skander.
Also if I've missed anyones question please just reask it or point me to the post. You'll have to excuse me I've been having trouble with the site logging on, and my last post came between plane flights.
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I am House of Usher. Once per night I can choose to track a see certain player and see who they target. Additionally, once per game I can see what ability they use as well.
Essentially, I am a Townie Tracker.
Nath'd. And just so I'm clear, are you a house or a book or what??
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I'm... not really sure. It doesn't explain in my role PM.
Anyways, here goes as for trying to defend myself. A bit late, I know, but I'm likely bing lynched anyways.
I admit, some of my early posts look pretty bad. Voting Cyan seemed like a good move to me at the time, but a few people took it as scummy. From there, things just went downhill. Whatever I tried to do to defend myself only made me look scummier, and eventually it seemed pointless to even try, when I knew any counter argument I tried to make would most likely make me look worse. I really just didn't see the point in digging myself a larger hole.
Well, their you go. My amazing argument. Lynch me as you wish, though prefereably you won't.
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Ok!
Now we can be friends!
Wow, so can I!
We have so much in common.
Awwww, you're already trying to placate us. That's very sweet of you...
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MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
Ready to give up yet? You can die with a smile on your face.
Vote: Callaway
In response to Az asking him for scumbuddies:
I think this comes from a pro-town mindset as obviously if he was scum he wouldn't even be thinking about giving up scumbuddies and everyone would understand that. This post comes from someone who is thinking about the best interests of the town.
He also does not seem to be acting as composed as he was in Newbie 29 where he was scum. The difference in behavior however can be attributed to more pressure being put on him here than there, but I think it's indicative of town.
Ace:
Why are you concerned with the image of your vote?
Explanation > No explanation
I actually noticed this same thing but figured a baker's dozen posts that seem to have a scummy reasoning behind them > 1 that has a townie reasoning.
Seems awkwardly written and scummy because this is certainly not Skander's typical writing style (just look at his other posts this game and others). Could be forced or a similar situation I found myself in when I played my second game as scum (cough *ongoing game* cough).
Callaway isn't defending himself, replied with spam, and the the whole "woe is me" deal, yet Skander decided to ignore all that and instead micro-analyze his one "townie" post that's a whole 9 words long. Seriously, he took 2 sentences to analyze "I am not scum."
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
Defending yourself would be a good place to start; a claim should be your last resort.
Bah, remind me to stick to basics from now on.
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
So your vote was just for pressure?
You'll have to explain a bit more than that. What is awkwardly written about it? What is scummy about it?
Well obviously it wasn't enough because you missed the point. It's not the "I am not scum", I could care less for such Seppelisms. It's the fact that he said he would if he could.
And you chose to ignore the fact that I acknowledged that his posts have been bad - I just get a bad townie feeling from it as opposed to a bad scum. Hence me saying that his posts feel genuine.
The point about his "I would if I could" post is a stand-alone argument.
I don't like the spin you've put around the facts, to dismiss my statements as irrational.
Wow is that bad. Just wow.
@Andeljiah: I don't see why I can't agree with a point Cyan makes and still thinks he scum. I found Some One suspicious, but at the same time found Cyan more suspicious.
I disagree that this statement holds any weight. Clearly he's not going to ruin the game for his team simply because he is getting pressured.
For one, you're assuming that they are busing each other off the bat, which seems unlikely at best. Secondly, you're valuing the opinion of a player you suspect. Scum, by definition, are trying to mislead the town. Therefore following them is bad.
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last updated 03/23/11
Exactly my point. Nobody would give up their scumbuddies. Saying he would if he could is plain wrong, he wouldn't - if he was scum. He's thinking, "Oh if I knew the scum's identity I would give them up in a heartbeat".
Still randomvoting after Cyan's daykill? -_o
@Azrael
That would be more helpful if we knew how the heck to do so.
@Skander
Hmmmm.
While I agree with the theory and sentiment regarding the replacements (especially Azrael, really), I find it highly pertinent that you chose to immediately throw a spike at them before they'd even done much of anything.
Hmmm. Sarcasm.
Also, you seem unusually convinced Callaway is town...
You obviously haven't seen the poor sportsmanship some players can exhibit. But that aside -- where in the world did he say anything about 'giving up scumbuddies'? He mentioned a past game where he hammered a scumbuddy (nowhere near the same thing) and then threw a Seppel-ism in response to Azrael's joke-poke. Your above argument, therefore, fails due to lack of relevance to the actual matter.
From what I read, he definitely wasn't very composed in Chess Mafia the moment pressure was placed on him. Are you reading him right? Or... purposely reading him wrong?
....
FoS: Skander
@Callaway
Au contraire. The initial poke may have been such, but I'm fairly certain the rest of the case up till now has been because of your increasingly bad responses to both questions in particular and pressure in general. That, and behavioural tells like the above quick reversal of opinion -- almost as classic a scumtell as the 'hammer a scumbuddy' you pulled in Chess Mafia.
Read. Examine. Argue. Counterargue.
What you don't do is baldly appeal to emotion in much the way you're doing now, because it just underlines, bolds, and italicizes your scumminess.
@Infinis
Ad hominem ahoy, matey. While I have my own problems with Cyan's playstyle, this is the limit of your contribution?
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Au contraire, as you say. Best to get it out before they do anything as opposed to afterward when it may be too late.
Not at this point, no. Where do you get that from?
At this point all I've seen is two people say Callaway is scum and when asked for reasons do not expound upon it - not much to make me want to vote him. Incidentally, this is also where the sarcasm plays in - I was slightly annoyed about the continued push against Callaway with no reasoning.
As asked him to give up his scumbuddies. Callaway responded "I would if I could..."
I'm talking about D1 or so when he was under some pressure and was calm about it - not after he hammered his scumbuddy and it was obvious that he was scum. Although I guess you can say he's taking it the same way here thinking that he's been exposed.
You're not quite using that right. 'Au contraire' means 'on the contrary'.
The above can also be construed as fearmongering. Are you a conspiracy theorist?
* desCoures raises an eyebrow.
I don't know, I could have been getting it from the 'I think he's bad town' because he reads 'genuine to me'. That sounds very certain he's town, no? Is there a reason for that?
I also think Azrael and andelijah have both posted mini-PBPAs since then. What's your opinion of Callaway now?
....considering that, as you put it, a 'Seppel-ism' immediately followed, I don't put much stock in that. It was in direct response to a query from Azrael about giving up scumbuddies. It fails as any kind of tell in that regard, and I believe I noted as such in my original post.
Yes. Yes I can say that.
I can also say, from the after-game chat, that he hadn't thought hammering his scumbuddy would make it obvious he was scum. Thus the comparison of mindset to this case is valid, meta as it may be.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
You scare me. Mostly because I have no idea if you are lying or not
Interesting. Unvote Vote Robroy, might as well do the legwork now.
Callaway didn't seem too bad up to this point, but this post is pretty bad.
Defend yourself! People are criticizing your actions - say why you took those actions. Explain why you made the posts you did. And don't unvote someone because they haven't screwed up in a while - have some conviction. Being pushed around is a sign of weakness, and that usually means you are lying.
After the rest of his I'm not entirely convinced - he seems to think that his claim is his best chance of defense. My opinion should be cemented by his claim.
I didn't see the need for a vote. Cyan usually isn't one to succumb to minor vote pressure, especially when he is confident in his stance. After the dust settled on that, I wanted to see how involved Azrael etc are in the game.
Some One intrigues me. Can't put my finger on it, but its something about his "oh by the way" posts that bugs me.
Why do some people still think Cyan didn't kill loran? Did I miss something, or has daykilling SK paranoia gripped the town?
Personal note: Busiest work week of the year for me (including this past weekend and the upcoming one). Posts may come slower than normal but I'm around.
What's wrong with a speech? Do you disagree with my points? Is it not true that weird =/= scum?
Not fearmongering, just a better time to get out what I want to say.
I may be misunderstanding something but I thought you were saying at that point (at the time of the post you quoted) I already seemed convinced that Callaway was town, which was obviously not true.
I find nothing wrong with the PBPA's. They are valid points against Callaway. However as I said before I don't get scum mindset from his posts. I'm going to reread the whole thing now to get a better feel for him.
Perhaps, I still feel it remains valid though,
Fair enough.
My want to vote really matter at this point, but I'd like to here Callaway's claim. It should be pretty obvious from there what his allignment is. I think he's scummy, but my only expirience with him is poor posting leading to a mislynch of a vanilla townie in Newb #28.
Other Thoughts:
I think desCoures has something on Skander. He's difficult to read as scum, but the only thing he does do is stick hios neck out for them a little too much (from what I know). A clear example is in Youkai Academy reguarding Ace. I absolutely don't think there's enoug there for a vote, but IGMEOY: Skander
I'd still like the replacements to answer my question here: Judging by the evidence that we can vote for them, I think it's a fair question to ask.
Some One in post #158 is voicing a concern that seems (to me) to be only a real concern for scum. At this point (If the replacements are vanilla besides), they can only really harm scum by contributing to scum hunting, which is only compounded if Callaway is scum. I suppose this is edging a bit far on WIFOM, but I guess I felt it had some merit.
Ande, Az, and Ged have all brought up some good points (I guess it's more the same point) on kpaca that he's failed to address so far as well.
Allow me to help: vote spotofprey.
This shouldn't show up either.
I strongly disagree with this post. Considering the fact we really don't know much about the replacements, they could have some wincons that go against the town, as well as some abilities that are naturally anti-town. Certainly they cannot all be pro-town.
In Youkai all I did was bus my buddies. Where did I stick my neck out for anyone? Of course that was an entirely different situation anyway since I knew that bussing my buddies would get me an extra kill, but I still didn't stick my neck out for anyone.
I understand that the games are different, but my real point is that I don't see why you are thinking Callaway is bad town in your posts just you saying that you feel he has a townie mindset.
I guess I don't see much of a reason to think that initially. To each their own, but there's no reason to let paranoia set in so much.
It's the fact that everything is not as clear-cut as Azrael may have made it initially seem. It may be clear cut for him, but that's probably not the case across the board for all replacements. Because they can be voted for and presumably lynched, it means the town must have some viable reasons to lynch replacements.
I still don't agree with this. Some links would be nice.
Yeah, I understand that this is bad. I can't really expound on it though since there really isn't anything else to go on. What I can compare it to is Persona Mafia (warning, it's ongoing so don't really talk about it), where Toastboy made a lot of bad moves D1 but I still felt that he was just newb town.
I've gone over Callaway's posts and they are quite bad. There is nothing I can point to as specifically telling me town aside from the "I would if I could" post and even that's debatable.
I guess it comes down to his claim now; if it matches something I've noticed or not.
Reading the thread now, I'll have something to say in a moment.
The way you wrote it is very brief compared to your typical style of writing.
Compare:
9, 10, 11 words
With:
28, 14, 20, 25 words
It's not just the fact your first 3 sentences are shorter than your last 4, but also the fact you spent more words analyzing a Seppel-type post of his than the entirety of his behaviors and the bandwagon on him. If you truly felt he was town, I believe you would have had more conviction and said more than a blanket statement of your feelings. You know enough to know that 1 town post (that is by no means a clear-cut indication of towniness) doesn't offset a dozen others, and thus, your reaction to the Callaway wagon seems atypical and irrational in the way you used your words to analyze the one very brief post that you think indicates townieness, yet not elaborate on how his scum posts really aren't all that bad.
Vote Count:
Callaway - 9 (Ace, andelijah, ChrisXIV , Cyan, Ged, greymon90210, kpaca, Pale Mage, Some One)
RobRoy - 1 (SpotofPrey)
Not Voting: Callaway, ced395, Charm_Master3125, desCoures, Emo_Pinata, Infinis, KeyofDestiny, Nom_Anor, Skander, Stormblind, Vampyr
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She knows why.
after a quick re-read of the thread, I guess were waiting for callaway to claim.
if nothing else, FoS NomAnor for "forgetting" (s)he was in the game. right...
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? Could you explain what you mean by this a bit more?
Is this serious or are you trying too late to get in on the random phase?
However, there are a couple other things I can comment on while we wait.
I don't really see the case against Skander. Although just saying someone "feels like town" is not particularly helpful, I have not found anything he has posted to be suspicious.
As for the claim of "fearmongering," I think Skander was quite right we should not blindly trust the replacements.
Sure, they can be helpful, but we have no reason to assume they are town--or even neutral searching for "favour points," and so we should be careful, treating them pretty much as we would any other participant.
Anyway, now waiting on claim.
Oh, and if anyone has a spare name, I could use one. I seem to have forgotten mine.
Hmm. That was more reasonable than I expected.
I do feel that Callaway is town, however I do not have much to go on to prove that. The wagon on him grew very quickly however and all the sarcastic comments directed toward him didn't make me think that people were looking too hard at whether he may just be a frusturated townie.
Also Ace: Was your vote just for pressure?
Because if someone does know my name, I expect I get some benefit from it.
Hm... I believed that the mechanics of the game implied this was true for, like, the majority of players at least. AKA if anyone knows mine, I'd be much obliged.
This is pretty much what I was looking for. Your comment about his claim being transparent of his alignment seemed weird since this is becoming increasingly less true around MTGS.
I am House of Usher. Once per night I can choose to track a see certain player and see who they target. Additionally, once per game I can see what ability they use as well.
Essentially, I am a Townie Tracker.
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24
I really don't approve of players giving unwarranted meta arguments for themselves. Fos: Skander.
Also if I've missed anyones question please just reask it or point me to the post. You'll have to excuse me I've been having trouble with the site logging on, and my last post came between plane flights.
Nath'd. And just so I'm clear, are you a house or a book or what??
Nor has he explained his past actions too well either.
Are you The Fall of the House of Usher Callaway? As in, this one?
Anyways, here goes as for trying to defend myself. A bit late, I know, but I'm likely bing lynched anyways.
I admit, some of my early posts look pretty bad. Voting Cyan seemed like a good move to me at the time, but a few people took it as scummy. From there, things just went downhill. Whatever I tried to do to defend myself only made me look scummier, and eventually it seemed pointless to even try, when I knew any counter argument I tried to make would most likely make me look worse. I really just didn't see the point in digging myself a larger hole.
Well, their you go. My amazing argument. Lynch me as you wish, though prefereably you won't.
Signature from Nakamura and Heroes of the Planes Studios.
MAFIA STATS
Scum
Basic 17 (Afterlife) - lose
Basic 15 (Coffeehouse) - win
Duel Monsters - lose
Manipulator - lose
Town
Anita Blake - lose
Basic 17 (Demonata) - lose
Canada - ongoing
Ongoing
Basic 24