Both Kraj and Ecophage both were talking to me about my little Arts and crafts stand and both had points why it wasen't a good idea.
I told them that I would only desire a soft claim to lock in the shadows from false claiming their towness ala Jodo style. My claim would have a purpose where as Someone appeared to just want to throw people into soft claims. I also never really thought about potental masons however masons from what I remember are not exactly what Jodo was claiming. I would and will be wary of anyone that does any confirming this method. (The Jodo method)
:: Roja takes rips the list off the paper easle ::
Still I ask myself, should Jodo give up the name of this townie? I think as long as it's before today's end it would be good for us to know. What about that townsperson, what should they do after this info is revealed? How could we prevent two people from claiming they are the same person? Personally I wouldn't say anything unless needed too, then again I haven't said much so far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks goes out to DarkNightCavalier and XenoNinja
I have a truth telling ability. It works on some things (it DOES NOT WORK ON ALLIGNMENT). However, I asked the mod, and the next best thing that I thought of, that works, is if everyone says "I have the ability to kill another player," I will be able to produce results as to who is telling the truth and who is not. I can do this to anyone the town wishes me to do it to, provided the player actually says that sentence (or at least something of the sort to the same effect).
At the time, I saw no reasons against it. It's true that we don't completely lock the scum into their claim, but townies have no reason to lie, and it may be useful in the future to catch scum who screwed up. Also, player interactions during a soft claim are interesting and can be analyzed later.
However, SomeOne's actions need to be analyzed first. As ecophagy said we need to figure out "whether he has anti-town reasons for advocating a soft-claim"
@Rojo "How could we prevent two people from claiming they are the same person? "
This seems like an acceptable outcome, at worse, we trade 1 for 1, assuming two players don't actually have the same name. What would be bad about this?
I have a truth telling ability. It works on some things (it DOES NOT WORK ON ALLIGNMENT). However, I asked the mod, and the next best thing that I thought of, that works, is if everyone says "I have the ability to kill another player," I will be able to produce results as to who is telling the truth and who is not. I can do this to anyone the town wishes me to do it to, provided the player actually says that sentence (or at least something of the sort to the same effect).
So you can use your ability any number of times during a cycle? is it used at night or during the day?
If this is entirely present and correct two separate statements "I can kill another player" and "I can talk to another player at night" would catch all but terrorist scums and vig masons and such.
Still, if SO's ability has unlimited uses and is accurate, it is stupidly broken.
I agree w/ DYH that SO will have to 'put up or shut up' eventually.
Let's say we use the bandwagon on me to catch a scum, but that scum false-claims doctor, and we don't lynch him. You best bet I will tell you guys tomorrow if he is lying.
I've got a great idea: how about you stop pushing for more information from a player who clearly is not today's lynch?
*shrug* if we are going to softclaim for SO, i'd like to know if we will reap all the benefits today/tomorrow/one claim at a time. His ability is a massive threat to the mafia anyway, so I dont see what harm revealing this would do.
I just want, at this point, everyone to say, "I have the ability to kill another player." The rest of the soft-claim can be thrown out the windo.
I'd be hardpressed to see if anyone has a reasonable objection as to why I should not be able to use my ability to see if people are killers or not. Again, Guardman is being ridiculous in his opposition.
will post later when I've read all that's happened, up to page 9.
As for the fence sitting, what I was trying to do was saying that I would vote for Some One, but felt that he had too many on him already, I wasn't trying to sit on a fence... although that's how it came out.
I find SO most suspicious, but also Gman, hence the FOS.
I just want, at this point, everyone to say, "I have the ability to kill another player." The rest of the soft-claim can be thrown out the windo.
I'd be hardpressed to see if anyone has a reasonable objection as to why I should not be able to use my ability to see if people are killers or not. Again, Guardman is being ridiculous in his opposition.
If you are telling the truth about your ability, it seems plausible for either town or scum. I'm worried that scum-Some One may be wanting to find the vig. I'd like to hear input from others on this point before anyone states this.
If you are telling the truth about your ability, it seems plausible for either town or scum. I'm worried that scum-Some One may be wanting to find the vig. I'd like to hear input from others on this point before anyone states this.
He can't out the vig if everyone says the same phrase.
He can't out the vig if everyone says the same phrase.
If he's scum with his truth-telling power, he can out the vig using that. It seems like I'm alone in this worry at the moment, and I understand that I'm being a bit paranoid here.
If he's scum with his truth-telling power, he can out the vig using that. It seems like I'm alone in this worry at the moment, and I understand that I'm being a bit paranoid here.
As I said, I think that's a longshot. Even if I'm wrong, if SO is scum we'll figure it out.
If he's telling the truth, then we gain a decent investigation at the cost of millerizing our vigs. The vigs shouldn't be acting suspicious enough to warrent investigation, anyway, but if they are as long as we don't get stupid and auto-lynch we should be okay. Even if he was investigating at random, I'd bet there's more scum than vigs.
Scum killers SO uncovers who claim vig get shot by real vigs.
will post later when I've read all that's happened, up to page 9.
As for the fence sitting, what I was trying to do was saying that I would vote for Some One, but felt that he had too many on him already, I wasn't trying to sit on a fence... although that's how it came out.
I find SO most suspicious, but also Gman, hence the FOS.
More later
Fence sitting is not meaning to vote someone (har har, the general term, not the player) but only FoSing them. Fence sitting is seeing two players being attacked, especially by each other, and pursuing both of them.
If he's scum with his truth-telling power, he can out the vig using that. It seems like I'm alone in this worry at the moment, and I understand that I'm being a bit paranoid here.
A scum with a truth telling power would be incredibly weak. He can a) verify that the townies aren't false claiming (woohoo?) or b) orchestrate an extremely elaborate plan to get the town to soft claim and spend the entire game searching for the vig.
@Andelijah, so are you saying I was fence-sitting?
As I expressed, i would have voted if SO had not already had so many votes on him.
But I did say I was suspicious of Gman, so it's a moot point, really.
You don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter that you didn't vote Some One. It does matter that Some One and Guardman were voting each other, and you decided to suspect both of them. You FoSed anyone with any suspicion on them at that point.
As Andelijah said, anyone who claims vig gets shot by real vig. It's quite simple and efficient because then the person who claims vig isn't the day's lynch.
So this is assuming that if SO finds a vig he won't announce them?
There's no "SO will find a vig", SO will find people who can kill, and will reveal them. No doubt whoever is revealed will claim some sort of town-vig, and the real vig (assuming the person is not the vig) will vig them.
I don't see a point why we shouldn't all say it. He's a gunsmith but somewhat better now that he's claimed.
I'm still not sure about SO. If he had this ability, why would he propose a first-letter kind of claim? If he has the ability to tell absolutely if a player is lying, it would make sense instead to have everyone say "I'm Mafia" or "I'm Town."--something that doesn't risk getting a false read from the vig. If he only has the ability to tell if a player is lying about being able to kill/being able to tell if the player is the vig, why would he have proposed a first-letter softclaim? Sure, he could have just been suggesting a claim to use JY's knowledge, but if he was, it has nothing to do with his ability anyway. He still isn't making sense to me, so I want him to explain these. I will leave my vote on him for now, though I will likely move it if he can explain what he was thinking. At which point I would like to move on to toast. He STILL is fence-sitting. STILL.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Good points re: the vig-outing problem. I think it's time for us to let SO use his truth-detection power. The below statement is for the purposes of truth-mining, not a claim.
Good points re: the vig-outing problem. I think it's time for us to let SO use his truth-detection power. The below statement is for the purposes of truth-mining, not a claim.
I have the ability to kill another player.
If you are town, the bolded is (probably) a lie, while the underlined is the truth.
If you are scum, the reverse happens.
Either way, if Some One looks at the truthfulness of that post, he could come back with a result of "lie." That being said, I don't know if that's exactly how the role works, but I vaguely remember RafaelK in Kung Fu mafia having claimed to have claimed this role in another game.
I'm still not sure about SO. If he had this ability, why would he propose a first-letter kind of claim? If he has the ability to tell absolutely if a player is lying, it would make sense instead to have everyone say "I'm Mafia" or "I'm Town."--something that doesn't risk getting a false read from the vig.
Not sure about the letters, but he specifically said he can't get alignments, which makes sense.
It was Kenji that claimed that role, though it was more convoluted(he claimed to be able to tell if a person had told a lie at all)..and he was lying himself.
I don't think that SO is claiming Gunsmith. SO, can you clarify this please?
I can test claims - sentences, fragments of sentences, or whatever. For example, hey mod, "can XYZ really kill a player like when he said so in post #539?" So no, Ande, it's not entire posts.
It was Kenji that claimed that role, though it was more convoluted(he claimed to be able to tell if a person had told a lie at all)..and he was lying himself.
RafaelK gave that explanation as a reason for believing Kenji's role though, and Kenji actually had that role (or something similar) in arimnaes' game (Redux, I think).
Edit with information: Here for RafaelK's claim (although it looks like I was wrong, he said he could choose a specific sentence).
And, Kenji's Redux role:
Quote from arimnaes »
Zhou Yu, Shu Sage
Along with 23 other dead Chinese guys, you were brought in to participate in Romance of the Three Kingdoms Mafia. Unfortunately, you didn't make the final cut, and after the first five or so months of spectating, your patience finally ran thin and you wandered off. How you came to arrive in Mafia Salvation is a bit of a mystery even to you - you're fairly certain the Mystics didn't have this in mind. Nevertheless, since you didn't get a chance to eliminate the foul Wei, you're glad to help mop up whatever honorless scoundrels are running this town.
Your abilities:
Once during the game, at night, you may focus your sagacious intellect on another player and attempt to divine their honesty. I will tell you (to the best of my knowledge) whether or not that player lied during the previous day.
The shrouded figures turn as one towards the source of the sound: Igor's unmistakeable voice
Thought it pains me to admit it, I am not infallible Igor says But to the best of my knowledge, the vote count is as follows:
Tilde: Kraj Cyan: desCoures, Wuffles II Kraj: The Fallen One nom anor: mmod Guardman: Some One Some One: JodoYodo, Nom Anor, Tilde toastboy: andelijah, Pale Mage
Please let me know if you believe this is, in any way, not correct.
This is too close to crypto claiming for my liking; I don't want to see anyone get modkilled.
Claiming (or false-claiming) anything, whether whole or in pieces, is allowed. I really only draw the line at a mass encoding effort, and mostly because of the negative effect on gameplay and pacing than anything else.
Surely there is the possibility of more than one town vig?
C:> Query above statement
working...
games with both normal town vigilantes and single-shot vig roles are not uncommon. however, multiple town aligned killing roles usually have some limiting factor imposed on one or more of these roles.
C:> Load "autoscan:Toastboy"
working...
program running. autoscan completion time estimate: 24 hours.
* ~Tilde~ gets up from his desk and looks outside. The rain predicted earlier had not come yet, but the sky was still an ominous gray. Perhaps tomorrow might be prettier.
Once we get all this distraction around Some One's role and mass claim and blah blah blah out of the way, please to call attention back to my vote on Tilde and reasons.
As a reminder, I will be out of the country for about a week starting tomorrow. If I have internet access I will do my best to keep up with the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
C:> result of scan?
working...
inconclusive. insufficient data to generate hypothesis on subject.
Sigh, sometimes you just aren't much help...
Action: power down computer.
Quote from Kraj »
please to call attention back to my vote on Tilde and reasons.
I think Some One's role/claimed ability is too broken to be town, and that he's using it in order to gain information on the town. Based on that, my suspicions about Some One are reason enough for you to vote for me?
That's a bit of a double standard, seeing as how you were also on the Some One bandwagon early on.
I think Some One's role/claimed ability is too broken to be town, and that he's using it in order to gain information on the town. Based on that, my suspicions about Some One are reason enough for you to vote for me?
That's a bit of a double standard, seeing as how you were also on the Some One bandwagon early on.
How would it be too broken to be town. If there are vigs, then it would be hard to determine who is scum and who is vig.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
KeyofDestiny, Animated God of Barning of The Æesir.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
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I told them that I would only desire a soft claim to lock in the shadows from false claiming their towness ala Jodo style. My claim would have a purpose where as Someone appeared to just want to throw people into soft claims. I also never really thought about potental masons however masons from what I remember are not exactly what Jodo was claiming. I would and will be wary of anyone that does any confirming this method. (The Jodo method)
:: Roja takes rips the list off the paper easle ::
Still I ask myself, should Jodo give up the name of this townie? I think as long as it's before today's end it would be good for us to know. What about that townsperson, what should they do after this info is revealed? How could we prevent two people from claiming they are the same person? Personally I wouldn't say anything unless needed too, then again I haven't said much so far.
"Why would you support a mass soft-claim?"
At the time, I saw no reasons against it. It's true that we don't completely lock the scum into their claim, but townies have no reason to lie, and it may be useful in the future to catch scum who screwed up. Also, player interactions during a soft claim are interesting and can be analyzed later.
However, SomeOne's actions need to be analyzed first. As ecophagy said we need to figure out "whether he has anti-town reasons for advocating a soft-claim"
@Rojo
"How could we prevent two people from claiming they are the same person? "
This seems like an acceptable outcome, at worse, we trade 1 for 1, assuming two players don't actually have the same name. What would be bad about this?
So you can use your ability any number of times during a cycle? is it used at night or during the day?
If this is entirely present and correct two separate statements "I can kill another player" and "I can talk to another player at night" would catch all but terrorist scums and vig masons and such.
Still, if SO's ability has unlimited uses and is accurate, it is stupidly broken.
I agree w/ DYH that SO will have to 'put up or shut up' eventually.
Let's say we use the bandwagon on me to catch a scum, but that scum false-claims doctor, and we don't lynch him. You best bet I will tell you guys tomorrow if he is lying.
Are you planning on saying whether it is multiple use or not?
I've got a great idea: how about you stop pushing for more information from a player who clearly is not today's lynch?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
*shrug* if we are going to softclaim for SO, i'd like to know if we will reap all the benefits today/tomorrow/one claim at a time. His ability is a massive threat to the mafia anyway, so I dont see what harm revealing this would do.
unvote
But it doesn't mean that I don't have my eye on you.
*Guardman watches Some One through his bedroom window
I'd be hardpressed to see if anyone has a reasonable objection as to why I should not be able to use my ability to see if people are killers or not. Again, Guardman is being ridiculous in his opposition.
Let me know when you've caught up to this point.
Vote: Toastboy
I don't see a problem with this. The only fault I can find is if you are scum with a lie detection ability, and that's a longshot.
If you are telling the truth about your ability, it seems plausible for either town or scum. I'm worried that scum-Some One may be wanting to find the vig. I'd like to hear input from others on this point before anyone states this.
He can't out the vig if everyone says the same phrase.
If he's scum with his truth-telling power, he can out the vig using that. It seems like I'm alone in this worry at the moment, and I understand that I'm being a bit paranoid here.
The vote is for the earlier fence-sitting in combination with you being compelled to stop your re-read to explain it. Full re-read of you is pending.
I'll address your second question below.
As I said, I think that's a longshot. Even if I'm wrong, if SO is scum we'll figure it out.
If he's telling the truth, then we gain a decent investigation at the cost of millerizing our vigs. The vigs shouldn't be acting suspicious enough to warrent investigation, anyway, but if they are as long as we don't get stupid and auto-lynch we should be okay. Even if he was investigating at random, I'd bet there's more scum than vigs.
Scum killers SO uncovers who claim vig get shot by real vigs.
A scum with a truth telling power would be incredibly weak. He can a) verify that the townies aren't false claiming (woohoo?) or b) orchestrate an extremely elaborate plan to get the town to soft claim and spend the entire game searching for the vig.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
I don't see a point why we shouldn't all say it. He's a gunsmith but somewhat better now that he's claimed.
I have the ability to kill another player.
If you are scum, the reverse happens.
Either way, if Some One looks at the truthfulness of that post, he could come back with a result of "lie." That being said, I don't know if that's exactly how the role works, but I vaguely remember RafaelK in Kung Fu mafia having claimed to have claimed this role in another game.
Hopefully that sentence wasn't too confusing.
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
Not sure about the letters, but he specifically said he can't get alignments, which makes sense.
I don't think that SO is claiming Gunsmith. SO, can you clarify this please?
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
I have the ability to kill another player.
Edit with information:
Here for RafaelK's claim (although it looks like I was wrong, he said he could choose a specific sentence).
And, Kenji's Redux role:
Salvation Mafia Clan
Mafia Stats
last updated 03/23/11
The shrouded figures turn as one towards the source of the sound: Igor's unmistakeable voice
Thought it pains me to admit it, I am not infallible Igor says But to the best of my knowledge, the vote count is as follows:
Tilde: Kraj
Cyan: desCoures, Wuffles II
Kraj: The Fallen One
nom anor: mmod
Guardman: Some One
Some One: JodoYodo, Nom Anor, Tilde
toastboy: andelijah, Pale Mage
Please let me know if you believe this is, in any way, not correct.
Claiming (or false-claiming) anything, whether whole or in pieces, is allowed. I really only draw the line at a mass encoding effort, and mostly because of the negative effect on gameplay and pacing than anything else.
So, back to finishing reading the thread!
C:> Query above statement
working...
games with both normal town vigilantes and single-shot vig roles are not uncommon. however, multiple town aligned killing roles usually have some limiting factor imposed on one or more of these roles.
C:> Load "autoscan:Toastboy"
working...
program running. autoscan completion time estimate: 24 hours.
* ~Tilde~ gets up from his desk and looks outside. The rain predicted earlier had not come yet, but the sky was still an ominous gray. Perhaps tomorrow might be prettier.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
(Not actually a claim.)
@Toastboy - About how many mafia games have you played, sir?
I have the ability to kill another player.
I have the ability to kill another player.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)
We should soft-claim. If Raf says it's okay, then this, combined with SO's ability, should make the game really, really easy.
Also, JESUS CHRIST WTF ALL THESE KILLERS?!? What is this, Texas?!?
Once we get all this distraction around Some One's role and mass claim and blah blah blah out of the way, please to call attention back to my vote on Tilde and reasons.
As a reminder, I will be out of the country for about a week starting tomorrow. If I have internet access I will do my best to keep up with the game.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I have the ability to kill another player.
Are you being sarcastic or have you not read the thread.
I WANT YOUR DEATH BARONS! Message me if you want to get rid of them!
compiling...
C:> result of scan?
working...
inconclusive. insufficient data to generate hypothesis on subject.
Sigh, sometimes you just aren't much help...
Action: power down computer.
I think Some One's role/claimed ability is too broken to be town, and that he's using it in order to gain information on the town. Based on that, my suspicions about Some One are reason enough for you to vote for me?
That's a bit of a double standard, seeing as how you were also on the Some One bandwagon early on.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
How would it be too broken to be town. If there are vigs, then it would be hard to determine who is scum and who is vig.
Mafia Stats:
2/3 Loss(#28 Town Disgaea,)
1/3 Wins(#29 Chess replacement, #1 Town GCF)