Slio @ 103: Here's the problem. As town, we don't know what the criteria for manga were. We don't know if they were really popular ones or not. WE could have everything from Hellsing to Gravitation to, heh, Mizuki in Wonderland. And I long ago learned that if someone knows their source material very well, they can make things make sense. Once more, I won't give examples. But they can game the mod all the like and, currently, they lose nothing. We can't catch them in a lie because we simply don't have the information. We're giving them information while not gaining much ourselves.
I'm mostly against this claim because of how it started, how it took off, and how it's continuing. If the claim had been presented on day 2 or 3, with actual discussion, and if it hadn't been pushed through so quickly, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. I just don't see any benefit for the town in the short term by doing this, and its, currently, not helping us find scum TODAY. I'd much rather, in just about every instance, find and lynch scum TODAY than make it easier for me to trap scum TOMORROW.
Tilde @ 104: Why do you assume there IS a vig? I'm curious.
Rafael @ 105: Usually when I see this type of confidence, someone stating something as if its fact, I assume there's a REASON they state it as fact. Mafia is, in its nature, a game of unknowns. Everyone, INCLUDING the Mafia, start out without all the facts. They must build it as they go. And anyone who is as confident as you about anything in the game, ESPECIALLY at this early stage, I'm suspicious of. Either they know something I don't, or they think they have a way of making their will happen. You say that AE -will- claim. So my experience says you have some way to make him claim.
And no, your vote alone wouldn't make him claim. But, again, I have to assume you know something I don't. Threats don't work when the person you're threatening doesn't FEEL threatened. Any mafia player worth his salt knows that your vote alone doesn't mean diddly. It's only when he has a lot on him that he'll feel threatened. And currently, he has no such thing.
And by 'wanting the claim to go through', I'd like to append a 'come hell or high water' to that. Not just your statement of wanting the claim, but wanting the claim bad enough to actually do something to anyone that doesn't go along with it. This type of ruthlessness is not something I usually do, or want to, see in a townie.
Thank you for acknowledging the distinction between a direct and indirect defense.
And I wish people could understand that priorities change in a game of Mafia. Especially when posts like Toast's come along, especially when several hours pass. Especially when a long post like mine comes through that shows the player is actively thinking about the game and going over things.
As I went over it for post 93, I realized that, with how Toast responded to me (especially the vote) along with his other actions, he was much scummier than CM. That doesn't mean CM isn't scummy. It just means Toast is scummier. I think they both need to hang, but Toast is a much more convincing candidate, and therefore gets my vote instead. I -do- think that, at this time, the miller thing is a cover and an excuse. But I still think Toast is a better candidate for deletion. This said, I will admit I have only played one or less games with an actual miller, and I don't know how the gameplay is SUPPOSED to go with them.
And I think that your statement about an OMGUS is craplogic. I went and reread the entire game up to post 92 and, in such, realized that Toast was so much more scummier than CM. Yes, his actual post responding to me voting for CM, and subsequent vote for me based on craplogic, is what prompted me to do the reread. However, an OMGUS vote is a vote that's made in retaliation with the intent of 'oh my god you suck and I can't believe you voted me so I'm going to vote you back just to spite'. Whereas mine was, "You voted me based on stupid reasons, so I reread your posts and realized that you're the scummiest person in the game, therefore I'm voting you." Big, big difference.
You're correct in that length of post is not relevant to OMGUS. But CONTENT of post is.
Nightarcher @ 106
I love when people say that I'm 'painting' others to seem scummy. Someone says something similar at least once every game. I have yet to have a game where someone says that that I -don't- turn up town. No, that doesn't mean there isn't a chance of it happening (even in this game), but the statement's amusing to me at this point. And yes, logic like this has, in the past, served me wrong. Frenger in Rogue Squadron mafia, for instance. I will note, though, that when I'm zealous like this, it -does- get a crapton of discussion that tends to turn up others for questioning.
RafaelK @ 109
In context, RafaelK, it makes perfect sense. Think about it. How many Manga are there actually in the world. SEveral thousand? Hell, I have at least 30 different titles in my bookcase ten feet from me, and there's another 100 or so in my local bookstore. We only have 17 players. And those are just the titles imported to America, many of which are famous. There are THOUSANDS still in Japan that rarely get translated over here. There's too many places for Scum to hide. Especially scum that know their source material.
No, I don't know for a fact that we're gaining nothing out of this. But I'm reasonably certain (not 100% mind you) that the information gleaned from the claim won't match an actual scumhunt we could (and now currently are, it seems) be doing in the meantime. Especially if we start focusing on how the claim actually took off, the people in question, and what their motivations are.
Again, I'd be HAPPY to do this on day 2 or three. But this just doesn't belong on day 1, especially not on page 2.
Now, as for the PBPA.
These posts were not done from memory. I actually went to each post and made notes on them to post to you guys as I went down. For post 49, I -did- think that Emo was being a scummy weasel. Fence sitting of that caliber always pings on my radar. You're pretty much right, that IS a 'don't trust this guy'. I usually, as I said in Inheritance, make posts like that in order for me or others to dig up later. I respond to things that may not seem important now, but they ping me, and I'll end up picking them up later when more important things come up. If EP ever comes up as a lynch candidate, I'll likely come back, notice that, and point out he worded his post to say he was in support of the claim while still giving himself deniability in case it went wrong. If it DOES go wrong, I can point out that EP was ready to hop off. If it doesn't, EP could be a townie hedging his bets or a scum doing a 'just in case' post. I don't know. It's something I do.
As for post 58, it's not that CM is irritated by NA. That's not what actually pings me. It's that he doesn't say WHY skipping the list is a bad thing. He doesn't give reasoning for not skipping the list, he basically just chastises NA for not following the plan. Town has a good reason for following the plan: So scum can't lurk, and so scum don't get to choose when they reveal for their own reasons. A scum-based plan, on the other hand, would place scum at the (currently) most strategic places to claim. A townie jumping in would irritate scum because parts of the plan would be screwed up. But scum wouldn't have a TOWNIE reason for being pissed, so they'd have to make up a scum reason. Like, say, 'I don't want people randomly stating what they're from."
Both scum AND town, to me, would be irritated. But they'd likely state different reasons. The reason CM stated was scummy to me, not the response from a town. Especially not the response from a town who would know enough to know that we'd NEED a list to start with.
The list implies nothing from my point of view, it's just something that we as a town can act on. If there were glaring objections they could have and would have been addressed before half the town had claimed. And since I didn't know how long I would be able to be on, I figured putting the list in play would help expedite things.
I noted RafK's "disdain" (I say that in quotes because there has to be a better word, but it currently escapes me) of AE being last, which I took as a jab that I had made it so. Does he have a reason to think that?
Also, I'm not pleased with the speed the toast wagon is picking up right yet.
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unvote, FOS Toast, I'm not yet convinced Toast is scum. He does seem to be routing conversation, and I'm still questioning his motives, but I'm not ready to take his wagon further than it has gone. I will say that he's backing off a little too quickly for me to think he is honestly scumhunting.
On the mass claim, it seems like there are really only two people against it at this point in the game: Nai and AE. AE I would expect since he's very protective of his role and his life as townie everything I have seen him be town. I know nothing of Nai, but his PBPA was clearly done as a method to collect his thoughts more than anything else (especially reading the response to my posts).
I will say that by the time I posted "Have at" I was behind the mass claim, not fence sitting. If the response to "Any objections" is "Have at" it really only means one thing. Sorry if my wording wasn't clear enough, but saying "I support a mass claim" is a bit robotic, and far too PC.
Quote from Nai »
No, I don't know for a fact that we're gaining nothing out of this. But I'm reasonably certain (not 100% mind you) that the information gleaned from the claim won't match an actual scumhunt we could (and now currently are, it seems) be doing in the meantime. Especially if we start focusing on how the claim actually took off, the people in question, and what their motivations are.
I feel that there has been something gained in the claim already that I was looking for in specific, but I'm waiting on saying what until the end of the mass claim.
I don't feel CM was pushing the claim to hide the fact he claimed miller, I think he's pushing the claim in an honest want to be beneficial. I see his motivations as pure.
Rafk seems like he wants the mass claim to run its course entirely before we get into additional scum hunting, and I must say that I agree.
Toast... is the scummiest player so far. He's trying to curtail conversation early, attacked people without much conviction, pushed the mass claim harder than CM (also claiming first, a move that several players I know thinks is scummy), and he's been working way to hard to constantly update the mass claim list (I think he's up to 4 or 5).
EWP: I want to make it clear that Toast is the person I feel is scummiest, and I would normally vote for him. However, I agree with CM that the wagon has grown too fast, and I don't want my random vote on his wagon.
I never said anyone who objected to the claim would be frowned upon, as you and Nai seem to think, I just think if you are going to object to the claim, have a good reason. Scum fishing is just rubbish.
First bolded section: omg are you serious? Yeah, you never said that, but as soon as it is brought up and people start claiming (as quickly as they did) it OBVIOUSLY going to be frowned upon when someone objects. I agree with Nai that if this was D2 or D3 then yeah, we have a right to get upset if someone refuses to claim, but right now I would think lots of people have reasons to object.
Second bolded section: Scum fishing is rubbish? You sir, are contradicting yourself. You tell them you want a good reason, and then tell them one of the BEST reasons is actually bad. That is EXACTLY the only reason I didn't want to claim. The scum will do more with this information early on than the town will, especially when it feels like the scum brought this sourceclaim up.
Quote from Toast »
@Nai, wow. That was impressive.
Sucking up to Nai, and then hammering all of his posts is noted
Quote from Toasty »
That is precisely why you are suspicious. Your post seemed defensive without any attack on you, simply because there was a soft claim.
No clue what you're getting at here.
There are several reasons Nai could be getting upset about the softclaim here, and EACH ONE warrants this kind of a post. His post was not defensive at all, each of his posts so far have gone on the attack, or summed up the entire situation as a whole. I think you're reaching here.
Quote from Toast&Jam »
You reasons were:
1. It gives scum ideas of power roles. As it has been said, there are many characters in each manga, not necessarily main characters, so how could this happen?
2. Gaming the mod, which you admit, so why make the point unless you want it to be heard?
3. The claim doesn't give us any information now. How can you deny there has not been discussion? Any discussion is information.
4. It went through too quickly. Well, I really can't see why that was a bad thing.
1.) It really does give the scum ideas of power roles, I can think of one or two in particular it would clue them in on. Also, the second bolded part is gaming the mod which brings me to...
2.) You say he admits to gaming the mod, and yet you use the gaming the mod reasoning of "not neccessarily main characters" in your 1st argument. You can't really say something is bad if you're doing it yourself.
3.) I completely agree there has been discussion, but who is it benefitting? The way I see it, you're obvscum (we'll get to that in a second) and RafK and CM aren't far behind. Now, if all of you are scum then great, you made this game easy for us. But if any of you are town, then all this discussion has pointed US in the wrong direction while the scum have gained info from it AND gotten mislynches.
4.) You can't see why a claim of any kind going through too quickly is a bad thing? I call BS. It is obviously bad for it go through without discussion (which I noted early on), because if there had been more time to discuss, people like AE, Nai, and even myself would've had time to talk about why it could be BAD as well as GOOD.
Quote from Toaster »
As I have explained, the reason I thought it was a good idea was: Discussion and a soft lock. And that is exactly what we're getting out of it. You come up with the power roles thing again, but you have already discredited that yourself.
Already explained how the discussion argument doesn't really work, and WAY back I explained that the soft lock thing is BS too. There are probably more mangas than Kithkin creature cards, and when a source claim was suggested in Kithkin mafia the reason was: Too many outs for the scum. That is the case here too. About the power roles? You are beginning to sound like you are fishing for WHICH ones they are, which is just another point against you.
Quote from Toasted »
If you wanted to discount that paragraph, why did you post it? because you wanted people to know it. I'm not using it against you just because it's gaming the mod, but because you use it to incite suspicion and try and gather support against the claim while isassociating yourself from the idea.
He never said he wanted to discount it, he brought it up and said "feel free to discount it". Man you are REALLY reaching here, and are sounding more desperate with every word.
Quote from Quick"N"Toast »
No, it's just that you are being narrow-minded as to it's positives.
Save the mudslinging for the politicians. I could JUST as easily say "YOU are being narrow-minded about the negatives". Nice little smear attack, which is also noted
Quote from Mmmm...Toasty »
You are making baseless accusations, give me evidence of 'railroading' this through. I started it, and my objection was piling all the suspicion onto Charm. Obviously I was not saying 'lookit! I'm scum y'know!'.
More indignation, and about the statement at the end: Of course you weren't, only the worst scum players would do that. It IS what happened however.
Quote from ManToast »
That was the overall tone I got from that post. When did you ever give the upsides? as for the downsides, I felt that they were stressing too much emphasis on 'this isn't good for the town', when I believe it is.
What....was the overall tone you got from the post? Why should someone have to give upsides if they feel there are none? If more than one person feels there are downsides to the town, why should you feel that your feelings and beliefs on it should outweigh theirs?
Quote from BoyToast »
OK, it was scummy. Was getting a little irritated, reading again he was being scummy. However, your condescending style is getting highly irritating. Make your points, but try not to be such of an ass.
Wow. One of the "obvscum" posts I was talking about earlier. You start off by backing off, and seeming like the victim. "Big bad mean Nai was beating up on me and I didn't like it!" You think HIS style is condescending? You've played with kpaca before, be thankful HE isn't the one questioning right now, or you would've soggied your toasties...Also, more name calling, you are sounding like VERY frustrated scum here.
Quote from Toasties »
Fine. I anaylsed, but didn't respond. Is all of this good enough for you?
More indignation and annoyance. Not indication of towniness at all.
Quote from Toastified »
You're misrepresenting me here. I gave my opinion, just in a more general way. You apparently don't like me quoting myself, so I'll leave you to go and find it.
I don't think he was misrepping you at all, and yet there is MORE sarcasm and indignation here, you're really not liking this guy are you?
Quote from I"m out of silly nicknames... »
Yes, I missed the part about sleep. I was in a hurry.
Agreement, you have to at least TRY to make it sound like you're not just really pissed off cuz Nai caught you so quickly...
So he's not allowed to have his own oinion? AE is scummy, but of course he's supporting your ideas so he can't possibly be! Oh, and the fact that no-one is allowed to not think the same asyou for scum.
I agree with Nai's ideas too, does that make me scummy? I complied with your precious softclaim even when secretly I didn't really want to. More indignation towards Nai here, baseless attacks..etc.
I agreed first? Oh dear, that's poor. I thought it was a good idea, so now it's a wagon?
BOOM! You know what that was? That was you exploding into a thousand little scum pieces. Nai believes that the person CM is scum and he brought up the source claim. You quickly agreed with it, and tried to get it rolling fairly quickly (and as you say above, you find nothing wrong with it going so quickly....) So in Nai's POV, that is easily two scumbuddies trying to help each other with the plan.
You seem to be trying really hard to portray me as scum, particularly with the hypothetical statements. However, you do make good cases and you're zealousness for trying to find scum is very townie. I probably know how this is going to go down, but I'll Unvote for now.
Yup, that is exactly how it is going to go down. You were pretty convinced he was scum earlier, and my God throughout this last post you sound like you want to KILL him. But honestly, buddying up to your attacker is like way at the beginning of Scum 101, on like the first day, first lesson. The tone of your voice and attitude towards Nai does NOT match your sentiments here, in the SLIGHTEST. Obvscum point #2.
Re-reading pending if I have time, but know I've still got my eye on you. I find you scummy in very major respects, but mostly town.
Obvscum point #3. "I just said you are acting very townie, but I still don't like you so I still find you scummy". This is simply so if a wagon picks up on Nai you can say "Hey there, I didn't like him either, I'm a good lil' townie!"
Most of all, I think we need to finish this claim, then I will make more informed decisions.
Will update the claim in the next post.
And now for the final act in Toastboy: The Tragedy. "Hey guys, ignore everything Nai just said, I want to finish finding out your information!!!! Yay!!!" C'mon, please dude. This isn't even hard anymore....
FoS: ToastBoy with intention to vote once everyone agrees his wagon isn't growing too quickly.
In context, RafaelK, it makes perfect sense. Think about it. How many Manga are there actually in the world. SEveral thousand? Hell, I have at least 30 different titles in my bookcase ten feet from me, and there's another 100 or so in my local bookstore. We only have 17 players. And those are just the titles imported to America, many of which are famous. There are THOUSANDS still in Japan that rarely get translated over here. There's too many places for Scum to hide. Especially scum that know their source material.
And none of that is necessarily worth a damn. A false claim, no matter how obscure or easy to make, will be busted by a namecop/mangacop/whatever. A real claim runs the risk of someone having knowledge that a character from X is scum. This is the rock and the hard place the scum must guess between.
Plus sometimes people forget the details of their own false claims and trip themselves later on.
Plus sometimes people make up such ridiculously bad false claims (see: Erestor in LOTR, or cpe's false claim in RotTK) or get terribly unlucky (such as me inventing the falseclaim of the ADHD Kid in High School Mafia only to discover one of the other players actually had the role of the ADD Kid....).
No, I don't know for a fact that we're gaining nothing out of this. But I'm reasonably certain (not 100% mind you) that the information gleaned from the claim won't match an actual scumhunt we could (and now currently are, it seems) be doing in the meantime.
So you're saying we had something better to post about during this time? There's no deadline, nothing to waste, and as you said we have managed to do some scumhunting even while the claim is in progress. And people are giving reactions right left and centre. It's much better than spending the first few pages in random fluff, which is usually what happens.
Again, I'd be HAPPY to do this on day 2 or three. But this just doesn't belong on day 1, especially not on page 2.
I disagree. I don't see the point in wasting time. This kind of thing is either day 1 round 1 before the scum have their boots on, or else it's a late game thing for process of elimination.
A scum-based plan, on the other hand, would place scum at the (currently) most strategic places to claim. A townie jumping in would irritate scum because parts of the plan would be screwed up. But scum wouldn't have a TOWNIE reason for being pissed, so they'd have to make up a scum reason. Like, say, 'I don't want people randomly stating what they're from."
Both scum AND town, to me, would be irritated.
If you could give me any kind of example of a scum plan with strategic places to claim which could be screwedup by a townie jumping in...
You want to find a scum thing in this post, but as I said, it's actually one of the most definitely town posts in the game so far. I would put this down as a big town tell, unless he's subtle enough and quick enough to think to fake annoyance in that situation (and that's so subtle that maybe no-one would pick up on it, so I would say not).
I noted RafK's "disdain" (I say that in quotes because there has to be a better word, but it currently escapes me) of AE being last, which I took as a jab that I had made it so. Does he have a reason to think that?
None at all. It happened to be the only problem I had with the way that list came out, and the only thing making me consider briefly (not out loud, I think) doing a new list. In hindsight I might have been better off insisting AE went early, but them's the breaks and at that point he'd only made one post which slightly tweaked my radar.
As I've already stated, I am always in favor of early soft claims. Anything that places restrictions on scum is a good idea. That said, I have come up against scum who advocate soft claims and townies who oppose them, and I don't think either Nai's reticence or Toastboy's enthusiasm are tells.
On with the claim btw, hope Oni and Callaway show up at some point.
After slogging through those long argument/counter-argument posts I don't see much reason to change my vote.
Quote from Charm_Master »
Also, I'm not pleased with the speed the toast wagon is picking up right yet.
Perhaps because he's your scumbuddy?
Quote from Nai »
Tilde @ 104: Why do you assume there IS a vig? I'm curious.
I'd think it highly unlikely a standard game this size is without a town vig.
Also, there's not much point in a cop trying to investigate CM. He'll either get a scum result from CM being a town miller, or a scum result because he's scum. Based on his source, the town miller claim might be correct, but considering his actions thus far in the game, if I were in the position of being able to vig someone, CM would be a valid target right now.
So here's my stance on the whole situation. I'm not claiming. I don't really see the validity of it. In most manga's there is typically 1 character that is the anti-hero. Not the villain, just not the hero. Usually they start of as a villain and get redeemed by the hero. So given this, I don't think that this claim has any validation in narrowing down scum options at a later claim. That said I feel all the points brought up against Toast are valid and as such I will be leaving my random vote where it is. Your post 119 seems like a very fast backpedal. I also found your lack of willingness to continue to quote your source correctly very childish and almost OMGUS. Since you are so adamant on finishing the soft claim, I'll say it again, I'm not revealing my source.
Wow. For those of us keeping track, that craptastic post was Oni's SECOND whole post in the game. 7 pages, 4 real life days, and we get 1 post that defends kamigawa block, lurk, lurk, lurk, then 1 post that refuses to participate. Just wow.
Also, for those of you (Oni and AE) who don't want to claim your source, and are citing the reason "because it doesn't help town narrow down scum", why have you not answered the question of "but how does it HURT the town"? And because its already been said that there are hundreds of characters in numerous manga to choose from, you can't say that a source will will out town power roles.
That was a hilariously scummy way of declining to false claim.
Indeed. His post seems also to lay a backdoor escape route. What do I mean? If we force him to claim, his claim will sound scummy. To explain this apparent scuminess, he will claim he is the redeemed version of his character.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
So here's my stance on the whole situation. I'm not claiming. I don't really see the validity of it. In most manga's there is typically 1 character that is the anti-hero. Not the villain, just not the hero. Usually they start of as a villain and get redeemed by the hero. So given this, I don't think that this claim has any validation in narrowing down scum options at a later claim. That said I feel all the points brought up against Toast are valid and as such I will be leaving my random vote where it is. Your post 119 seems like a very fast backpedal. I also found your lack of willingness to continue to quote your source correctly very childish and almost OMGUS. Since you are so adamant on finishing the soft claim, I'll say it again, I'm not revealing my source.
What kind of reasoning is that? The point is to lock the scum into a claim of a specific source. How does that not narrow down the claim options? What if they choose poorly and somebody is able to counter claim? The point is that this in no way is damaging the town, but locks the scum into either false claiming, or sticking with their role. This post also sounds not like a defense but that you have something to hide. Thanks for making this easy.
So here's my stance on the whole situation. I'm not claiming. I don't really see the validity of it. In most manga's there is typically 1 character that is the anti-hero. Not the villain, just not the hero. Usually they start of as a villain and get redeemed by the hero. So given this, I don't think that this claim has any validation in narrowing down scum options at a later claim. That said I feel all the points brought up against Toast are valid and as such I will be leaving my random vote where it is. Your post 119 seems like a very fast backpedal. I also found your lack of willingness to continue to quote your source correctly very childish and almost OMGUS. Since you are so adamant on finishing the soft claim, I'll say it again, I'm not revealing my source.
Oni just basically said: "Hi, I'm from a manga where my role can easily be identified from the title. Please kill me."
It's unlikely he's mafia, they had a chance to communicate night 0 and possibly set this whole soft-claim business up. That makes him town or independent. The fact he used the term "Anti-Hero" in his post, makes me think independent though.
Unvote, Vote Oni Kuma
This doesn't by any means get Toastboy or CM off the hot seat. Oni just managed to put himself at the front of the queue.
I'm amused that it took Oni until post #121 to voice his concerns. As debated as this soft-name-claim is, we must make sure all participate, otherwise scum are going to sit back and giggle as they refuse to claim because it's 'anti-town'.
We've started this, we need to finish it. Claim Oni.
There you go. Perfect example of an anit hero. And if the point is to limit the scum's chance of a claim by restricting them to a series I don't think this is valid. Simply because you stand a better shot of the scum claiming a major character if they don't know which manga's are truely out there. Now all scum has to do is pick a minor character that noone else could possibly stand a chance of being.
Besides trying to explain your claim in advance, what is the point of this exactly? Anti-hero character exist, no kidding.
Quote from Oni »
And if the point is to limit the scum's chance of a claim by restricting them to a series I don't think this is valid.
There are Lots And Lots Of Characters in a lot of manga. I know. That's why a series claim shouldn't give much away to the scum about the town's roles.
The point is to put scum in a position where they have to decide without much information and without discussing with their friends whether they tell the truth or tell a lie, both of which have risks depending on what secret information and powers townies have. This has been explained.
Now all scum has to do is pick a minor character that noone else could possibly stand a chance of being.
That worked so well when it was known as the "Erestor" claim in LOTR Mafia
It would also work beautifully to turn any namecop or mangacop or similar role into the equivalent of a full cop, win for us!
I never said anyone who objected to the claim would be frowned upon, as you and Nai seem to think, I just think if you are going to object to the claim, have a good reason. Scum fishing is just rubbish.
I don't like this thing you're holding against me that I let there be 'no discussion'. I put forward my claim because I though it's a good idea, and have not been trying to push it through without letting anyone object.
So you don't care much about scum fishing? Your not bothered by it?
Did you give discussion a chance?
You "have not been trying to push it through"? News flash, your not trying because you did.
Why was it a good idea? Did you give reasonable time for objections?
Oni Kuma, the thing is, you just got the entire game to jump on you, that was one of the worst things I could think of doing. Your posts drips scummy, (or at least trying to hide something). I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for now, but I may well change it into a vote later.
@Shadow Knight: It has only been 4 days, as you said, some people don't have as much time as others and don't get to check this more than once every 1-2 days.
@NA- nice of you to defend him *after* he cited a real life issue (hope she's feeling better soon). I fully enjoy that you managed to make a post almost as scummy as he did.
Not going to reply to all of Toastboy's comments in response to my post against him (although I will comment that your nicknames for me were quite fun):
Ok scum, you are digging yourself an even bigger hole by saying my post was "scummier than Nai's". I hadn't been around for a little while, read your post, found several things wrong with them, and called you out on them. Nai did this, and you called him scummy. I did this, and you called ME scummy. This is newb scum tell #1: Attack the people who attack you! With that said,
Come on town, why did this wagon on Oni Kuma grow exponentially fast? Not wanting to soft claimDay One is NOT a scumtell. It reads more as Newb Town than scum, because newb townies generally want their information kept secret for longer, ESPECIALLY if said newb town has a role that is easily revealed by softclaiming, and said newb town is afraid of dying. I think we have nabbed a scum in Toastboy, and a good candidate to look at D2 in terms of CM, don't lose sight of that yet.
I reiterate, not wanting to softclaim is NOT a scumtell.
@Oni Kuma: I know how you feel, man. Your information is valuable to you, and this thing with your grandmother sucks (my grandmother passed away in the middle of a game, so I'd never accuse anyone of lying about something like that) but unfortunately, you were gone for all of this discussion. The sourceclaim has started, and if you are town you are better off complying than fighting it at this point, as almost everybody has anyways. After reading this, if you STILL feel like withholding your information, please provide better and stronger reasons than your anti-hero argument, k?
Time for another GigantoNaiPost (tm)! This episode, we talk a lot to toast, note another opposition to the soft claim, answer some questions, and continue to be a sarcastic bastard for fun!
I never said anyone who objected to the claim would be frowned upon, as you and Nai seem to think, I just think if you are going to object to the claim, have a good reason.
Toast's start is fantastic, and he just keeps sinking. One could almost accuse him of blasting holes into his OWN boat!
No, you never outright said that anyone who objected would be frowned upon. I'm talking mob logic when lead by a ringleader. Like YOU.
This is how things happen (and how things DID happen). Someone suggests something that would involve the entire group participating. Someone else agrees and participates, putting themselves 'at risk' to do so. At this point, there's no risk of objecting. But five more people put themselves 'at risk' for this plan. NOW, if anyone objects they're going to be risking putting themselves on a stage for people to throw tomatoes at.
Why? Because a claim forces people to risk their own necks. As I said before, -this- soft claim is relatively low risk. You don't lose much by saying what series you are from at this point. However, you're STILL risking something. And you'll be very upset if YOU have already risked something for the plan and someone else refuses to do the same. They're not matching your wager, it isn't 'fair', and you want justice.
More? As I have said before, town benefits from more information. Series claim IS information for the town. So when town gives information, they assume anyone who does NOT give the same information must be scum denying info from town. The mob ignores the REASONING behind not giving information, they just see denial. They crowd to lynch anyone giving opposition.
Mob reasoning. For better or worse, when a bandwagon has started, it's a mob. This claim has a bandwagon behind it.
Scum fishing is just rubbish.
And another win for Toast! He's proving you don't need to -think- to type on a keyboard.
Let's see. Information on a mass scale is requested by a player. Information that could be used by both sides. The total players in the game is usually composed of 1/3rd to 1/4th mafia. And... You somehow think there's no chance that this was started by mafia.
Do you play this game normally, or is this your first time? Just PROBABILITY says that it could be mafia. And given how fast this took off, I see a high chance of mafia on board, if not starting and running the whole thing.
I don't like this thing you're holding against me that I let there be 'no discussion'. I put forward my claim because I though it's a good idea, and have not been trying to push it through without letting anyone object.
Putting forth your claim, as previously stated, is WHAT stopped the discussion. People saw the claim was going, and discussion ended. Why? Because, to most, there's no point discussing a claim that's already started. It's going, there's no real way to stop it, so people stop discussing.
What TOWN would do was wait until the majority of people are in agreement before the first claim, in order to let discussion go. But, as previously stated: 6 out of 17 people outright agreed with this claim.
And I'll say this again later, but: Just because no one, at that point, OUTRIGHT said they disagreed with the claim doesn't mean that everyone agrees. If there are people you haven't convinced either way, you need to work harder and NOT assume you have enough people on your side to continue.
@Nai, wow. That was impressive.
I'm tempted to agree with Grey and say this comes off as ass kissing. But considering the amount of time and effort I put into that, and knowing that it was GOOD, I'll just take it as a compliment.
As for the difference in statments: when I quoted the two posts, I identified a change of 'tone'. Plus you said yourself, by the time I started, no-one was outright against it, and most who had posted since the proposition said they were up for it ie would do it.
I love how you casually handwave the difference in statements bit by posting a quick sentence and including it with another part.
A 'change of heart' is equal a 'change of position'. You were thinking one thing, then you were thinking another. A 'change of tone' is a different way of saying things, NOT a different position altogether. So they are in no way equal. One was accusing him of doing a heel-face-turn, the other is saying that he has a way with words. BIG difference.
And you really don't get this whole 'majority' thing. There are 17 players in this game. 1 player puts forth a proposition. 6 people post after him, 4 saying they agree, 2 saying they have no opinion. Another player comes in and assumes the proposition succeeded and puts it into action.
See the problem? Just because 4 of 6 people said they agree, that doesn't mean that an equivalent amount of people out of the remaining 10 are going to agree too. There's a reason we wait for a MAJORITY when it comes to lynching someone. We don't wait a day, say that 10 people posted, 7 agree to lynch, and we lynch. No, we wait for ALL 17 people to post, we wait for 9 people to agree, THEN we lynch. One is NOT equal to another.
You were rushing it, and there's no way to say you weren't. You DID NOT WAIT, so you rushed it. End of story.
where? I never said this. You are oushing intentions onto me that I never had. It's clear I thought the claim was a good idea, and though you believe my reasons don't apply specifically to a soft claim, they still work.
See also mob logic above.
Furthermore, have you ever actually listened to a prosecutor in a courtroom? Does he just SAY what happened and leave it at that? Nope! He has to prove MOTIVE too. And since we can't read minds, he has to ASSUME a motive and put it into words. Same thing I'm doing here.
Save that I'm also using knowledge of mob reasoning. Either you wanted it to happen to begin with, or it was just a happy accident, but it happened. Anyone that disagreed with the claim you supported had suspicion thrown on them.
That is precisely why you are suspicious. Your post seemed defensive without any attack on you, simply because there was a soft claim.
... Let me get this straight. You're saying that I was defensive WHILE attacking? But... I was not being preemptively defensive against attacks on me FOR the attack...
Let me try this again. WHY do I sound defensive? If I'm not defending against a CURRENT attack, and not defending against a FUTURE attack... How can I be defensive, exactly? You're not making ANY sense. You're also throwing accusations at me that have NO backing, as I've said before.
No clue what you're getting at here.
This was me showing how stupid the 'defensive' comment is. I either have to be defending against a current attack (by your words, there was none), or putting verbal defenses against a FUTURE attack. You know, like I did with the 'gaming the mod' comment. I KNEW someone would attack me for 'gaming the mod', so I said outright that I KNEW I was gaming the mod. I had already said it, showing I was already aware of what I was doing, in order to stop someone to say I was trying to confuse people BY gaming the mod.
In other words, I was preemptively defending against EXACTLY what you did.
You reasons were:
1. It gives scum ideas of power roles. As it has been said, there are many characters in each manga, not necessarily main characters, so how could this happen?
There's a difference between what is in the MANGA and what is in the GAME. We have MULTIPLE players and MULTIPLE manga. Because we can't put EVERY character into the game, the mod has to restrict himself to only one or two characters per manga. It is not that farfetched to assume the majority, if not ALL of them, are THE main character from the manga, or his secondary sidekick.
YES, this is gaming the mod. This is trying to work out the way the mod thought while making up this game. However, this is also the OBVIOUS way the moderator would work. It's the SIMPLEST explanation using the information we have at the moment. I will continue to work off of this assumption until more information is provided.
2. Gaming the mod, which you admit, so why make the point unless you want it to be heard?
Here's the reason, and it's a good one too:
There are more manga than there are players in this game. We don't know what the criteria for choosing manga were, so we can't judge what is a false claim in this soft claim and what's a real one.
We can ASSUME that the moderator of this game chose well known manga in order to minimize the research needed by the common player, making the game more logic/arguments (you know, more MAFIA) and less of a research paper.
Now, this is what's known as GAMING THE MOD. As I explained earlier, GAMING THE MOD refers to trying to get into the moderator's head and figure out how they set up the game.
Why doesn't it work? Because there's no way to know HOW the moderator set up the game. They could have thought ahead, knew a player (like myself) would wonder how the game was set up, and use ONLY obscure manga in order to stop an argument like mine and to make it easier on the mafia.
And, knowing a player would think THAT way, they could have put ONLY obvious manga in order to confuse the town more.
The more astute reader will notice this is devolving into a WIFOM argument, which is EXACTLY why gaming the mod is normally frowned upon.
HOWEVER. My argument isn't ANY less valid because I'm gaming the mod. Which is why I submitted it to the town. It's a valid argument: We don't know what was chosen for this mafia game, so we can't really use the information we're being given. It's something for the town to think about as they get this information; how useful is it, really, and is it worth the town saying where they're from?
At the end of it, I admitted that it was gaming the mod. Why? Several reasons. FIRST, it was a preemptive defense against someone like YOU, who would shout 'its gaming the mod!' in order to discredit the argument. SECOND, I'm letting you and everyone else know that, since I'm AWARE that its gaming the mod, YOU can assume that I've gone over the argument, thought about how it was gaming the mod, AND THEN submitted it anyways. BECAUSE I submitted it, you can now assume I thought it was important enough to let you know, EVEN THOUGH it was gaming the mod. THIRD, it was not only defense, it was a trap. I was waiting for someone to discredit it due to gaming the mod, waiting to see who wouldn't think about it enough to come to the conclusion that it was a valid point. Bad players wouldn't think about it much, and would discredit it for gaming the mod. And MAFIA would discredit it, knowing its a valid point, but wanting to convince other players that it wasn't.
THAT is why I put that in there. It's STILL a valid point, and so far, no one has made a good, or particularly successful, argument against it.
3. The claim doesn't give us any information now. How can you deny there has not been discussion? Any discussion is information.
I'm going to say this again later, when you ask the same question again. No, I wont' be doing any copying or pasting, I'll actually rewrite this out to make sure its understood. I'm also going to bold/underline it both times so it's very obvious. There will also be capitalization.
THE FACT THAT DISCUSSION IS OCCURRING AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE CLAIM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE CLAIM GAVE US INFORMATION. THE INFORMATION FROM THE CLAIM IS NOT AT ALL CONNECTED OR RELATED TO THE INFORMATION GLEANED FROM THE DISCUSSION OF THE CLAIM ITSELF.
Bonus translation of that in a longer form for those playing from home:
We have TWO sets of information here.
Set A - Information gained from the soft claim itself. This information includes: the name of the series each player is from.
Set B - Information gained from the discussion of the claim. This information includes: who is in favor of the claim; who is not in favor of the claim; the opinion of people from group A on group B; opinions on the series claims; opinions on the validity of the series claims; opinions on the people who made the series claims; etc.
Now, who in the audience can spot a shared member of both sets? That is, a member of set A that is also in set B, or vice versa? Anyone? Anyone?
That's RIGHT. There IS NO SHARED MEMBER.
What does this mean? This means that the soft claim, in and of itself, is ONLY responsible for the names of the series. It is NOT responsible for ANY OTHER INFORMATION.
The fact that we got all that other information from it has NOTHING to do with the claim itself. It's from the DISCUSSION of the claim, and the DISCUSSION of the DISCUSSION of the claim. That's IT.
Now, what does THAT mean? Several things. ONE. The CLAIM ITSELF has given us ALMOST NO INFORMATION.
Two - I'm confident in saying that neither YOU, Toast, nor Charm_Master, intended for all this discussion based on the CLAIM ITSELF. If you intended any discussion at all, it was probably on the CLAIMS GIVEN.
For any that don't understand, do ask questions, I'll be happy to explain.
4. It went through too quickly. Well, I really can't see why that was a bad thing.
I responded to these already.
Mmk. I'll give you an example:
Player A claims to be a vig with unlimited day and night shots, who can also shoot unlimited times per day or night cycle.
Player B proposes that Player A shoots everyone in the game, in alphabetical order. He thinks that this will help them get rid of scum.
Players C, D, and E all agree with the plan. Players F, G, and H have no real opinion at the time of their posting. Players I through M haven't posted yet.
Player A, seeing three people agreeing, decides to enact the plan and starts shooting people.
This is an (extreme) example of a plan that went through way too quickly.
Now, why is a plan going too quickly a bad thing? Because there may be downsides to the plan no one has said yet. Because a player may be able to give all the information given from the plan (for instance, in that example, a cop that has investigated half the players and knows who is innocent already) without a chance of the downsides. It may be that only a small minority agree with the plan and that by enacting it too quickly, you're going against the wishes of the majority. Because the plan may be made by SCUM, and by enacting it, you're helping them win the game. Discussion may be able to reveal this fact and help the town.
There is no time, in this game, where discussion hurts the town. Including extended discussion that takes several days. YOU may get bored of it, but YOUR opinion on the fact that this is boring, and YOUR entertainment from the game at this point, has NO relevance to the rest of the players. If you're bored, wait, or ask for a replacement. The fact that you are bored should NEVER come before the safety of the town and the chance the town will win.
In addition to all this, discussion reveals MORE information for the town. Opinions can be used for or against players later on. Knowing who was against a successful plan can help find mafia. Knowing who was against an unsuccessful plan can help clear town. Cops can breadcrumb their results, or their identities, in discussion. So can other players. Players like me, who do a lot of behavioral and linguistic analysis, get 'assault/attack fodder' out of the arguments and are able to make better cases against scummy players.
ALL THOSE REASONS are why pushing a plan through too fast is a bad thing. Luckily there are players like me in this game, who are still willing to push through a discussion even after the plan is going. Otherwise, we'd lose all this evidence we're accruing for, and against, every player that participates.
As I have explained, the reason I thought it was a good idea was: Discussion and a soft lock. And that is exactly what we're getting out of it. You come up with the power roles thing again, but you have already discredited that yourself.
As I explained before: The discussion excuse is ********.
The soft lock, while useful later on in the game, isn't helping us now. It won't help us until someone claims. And while it WILL help us later, I have no doubt, it was eschewing discussion while the mafia were making notes on everyone.
And look, here you are trying to sneak another attack through:
Where did I discredit the power roles thing? I STILL think the mafia can get power role information. If I discredit it, do actually show it.
If you wanted to discount that paragraph, why did you post it? because you wanted people to know it. I'm not using it against you just because it's gaming the mod, but because you use it to incite suspicion and try and gather support against the claim while isassociating yourself from the idea.
First of all: I already explained in this post why I posted the gaming the mod section. You can go back and read that.
Second of all, 'inciting suspicion' is such a wonderful phrase. It's equal to 'fearmongering' while being not as inflammatory towards the person you direct it at.
It's also scummy as hell. Why? Because it puts the action in a bad light. Why is this bad? Because if I've found mafia, I can't get it LYNCHED without inciting suspicion. If I can't convince other players to at least LOOK CLOSER at the player in question, I can't get them to vote for him. And if I can't get that to happen, the scum win automatically. If players can't get other players to lynch other players, the game stalls. Oh, and did you forget that if the town doesn't win, the mafia does?
Moreover, how am I distancing myself from the anti-claim movement? I said, outright, at the VERY beginning of that post, I disliked how fast the claim was moving. I also outright said that I thought the claim wasn't helping us at all right then. I gave my opinion, directly and succinctly. There was NO distancing whatsoever. I put myself SQUARELY in the anti-claim corner.
A statement like that is flinging mud, hoping people will see me as scummy without actually, you know, going back and reading the post in question. And that's a scum tactic.
No, it's just that you are being narrow-minded as to it's positives.
This I rank right with the 'fearmongering' comment.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are narrowminded. When someone thinks the negatives outweigh the positives, that does NOT mean that they haven't actually looked at the positives.
This is a logical fallacy known as the 'ad hominem'. It's an attempt to discredit the PERSON giving the argument, instead of the argument itself. Saying the person is narrowminded as to the positives is saying that they haven't adequately looked at the positives, therefore their argument is bunk.
Did I forget to mention that the ad hominem is a scum tactic?
You are making baseless accusations, give me evidence of 'railroading' this through. I started it, and my objection was piling all the suspicion onto Charm. Obviously I was not saying 'lookit! I'm scum y'know!'.
Proposing a soft claim is a good way of getting out of the random phase, and getting things moving.
Even if we don't actually do the claim, reactions to it are helpful.
If we do, then it just narrows scum options if they have to fake claim. No by much, but its a start.
Well, it seems most are up for it, but no-one has actually claimed, so I'll start.
My character is from the manga YuYu Hashuko.
Proof enough for you?
You gave weak defenses for the claim. I've already debunked those, save the last one, which is a decent, but STILL weak defense.
THEN, you say that 'most are up for it', when only 6/17 were actually up for it. This was overstating the actual agreement for the proposition in order to influence the decisions of others. Humans are surprisingly herd-like creatures. If we see many people doing a specific action, we tend to do it too. That's why the 'If your friends were going to jump off a bridge, would you do it too?' sarcastic question from your mother is so famous and so often used.
THEN you outright claim, starting the claim. Before there was even a majority agreement, much less total agreement. Before anyone had a chance to object. Before the downsides had been stated. You started it.
You forced it through. You kept the claim on its tracks before anyone even had a chance to TRY to derail it. In other words: YOU RAILROADED THE CLAIM.
Please, stop making yourself look bad by denying it.
That was the overall tone I got from that post. When did you ever give the upsides? as for the downsides, I felt that they were stressing too much emphasis on 'this isn't good for the town', when I believe it is.
Quote from Nai »
This claim also doesn't help us at all now, and only helps later, and only in a way to limit what the scum can actually claim. It doesn't really give the town any information that we can use, while giving the scum a good idea of where to look for power roles, if they know the mangas in question.
Excerpt from the post in question. And, bolded, there's the ONE upside I could see. Yes, ONE. A tiny one. Yes, I gave the upsides. Did you notice how tiny it was, as compared to all the downsides I gave? I thought you did.
I love how you're misrepresenting me here.
Oh, and I love the way you put this. "I felt that they were stressing too much emphasis on 'this isn't good for the town'." It would be a bad 'This isn't good for the town' post if it didn't actually stress that fact.
Not quick on the uptake are you, Captain Obvious?
OK, it was scummy. Was getting a little irritated, reading again he was being scummy. However, your condescending style is getting highly irritating. Make your points, but try not to be such of an ass.
No, really? Accusing me of poor attacks, giving no actual evidence of said poor attacks, and then making a poor attack of your own? A scum tell? I never would have thought!
This is another scum tactic. Admitting what they said was a scummy statement in order to reduce the impact of the actual statement itself. Before you ask, YES, this is different from my 'gaming the mod' statement. In your case, someone pointed out it was scummy BEFORE you admitted it, showing that you didn't think of it at all. Thus it becomes a tell. There's also the fact that gaming the mod is usually considered a logical fallacy (like a WIFOM argument), not necessarily scummy.
And this is my 'getting my points through' voice. When outright fact doesn't work, I start getting condescending. I'm making the SAME points I did originally. But originally they didn't get through. But now, when I make them condescendingly, you grudgingly admit they're true. So... Apparently the tone works, and I'm not going to fix something that's not broken.
Besides. It makes me giggle. And I gather other people are amused by it too.
Fine. I anaylsed, but didn't respond. Is all of this good enough for you?
Ayup. The written confession that you said you DID respond while you actually DIDN'T, thus lying to the town, is very satisfactory.
what? PLease explain this.
In other words, you gave a blanket answer to all my questions instead of answering each one individually. The blanket answer ANSWERS them all, but it also omits facts that could incriminate you.
You're misrepresenting me here. I gave my opinion, just in a more general way. You apparently don't like me quoting myself, so I'll leave you to go and find it.
And way to prove my point!
Yes, you gave your opinion. But you gave it in a general way that doesn't describe the thinking behind it. Town likes information, and we LIKE to know how you came to your conclusions.
"Very defensive position." Well... HOW was it defensive? Oh, right, you don't TELL us. So we have no idea how your thought process went. So we actually can't use this at ALL, since we can't tell if it was valid or not.
"Imply its dangerous while revealing nothing." He implied this? REALLY?! That could be scummy! Where did he imply it, and how isn't it dangerous? Oh... You didn't actually tell us that. So... We can't use THIS either.
"Add some gaming the mod" Where?
"And some serial caution" What does this mean, where did he do it, and why is it bad?
See my point? No thinking behind it makes it useless to the town, while you get to say you actually gave your opinion.
Oh, speaking of general opinions: Town likes SPECIFIC opinions. Why? Because GENERAL opinions can be applied to anything. They provide no content. While simultaneously being able to be used in both SCUM and TOWN arguments. You can fence-sit while giving general opinions. How?
"Very defensive position." He's scum! He's being extremely defensive here! Kill him! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. Look how defensive he is when backed into a wall.
"Imply its dangerous while revealing nothing." He's scum! He's putting messages under the radar to derail my plan while not outright saying them! And he's lying too! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. He's just confused and not making much sense.
"Add some gaming the mod". He's scum! He's trying to confuse us with WIFOM argument! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. See how he's trying to think like the mod in order to help us find lying scum?
"And some serial caution." He's scum! He's trying to put us into analysis paralysis! He's just going to stop us from doing anything! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. He's trying to help us avoid making bad decisions.
See, your GENERAL opinions can be used either way. But when you give SPECIFIC opinions with actual back-up, they not only can't be confused for alternate meaning, we can actually USE them later. Which, of course, is what SCUM are afraid of.
Yes, I missed the part about sleep. I was in a hurry.
And by missing it, you were able to paint me in a bad light. Which, if I was a player that wasn't good at defending myself and didn't give much info to town, would be bad for me.
So he's not allowed to have his own oinion? AE is scummy, but of course he's supporting your ideas so he can't possibly be! Oh, and the fact that no-one is allowed to not think the same asyou for scum.
What a bad argument. I'll dissect.
First sentence? I never said he's not allowed to have his own opinion. Moreover, the problem was with his outright barning. He used Raf's threat against AE as an excuse to vote him. He didn't give any reasoning of his own for the vote, didn't add anything. Just bandwagoned onto AE. That's why he's a bad player.
Then you outright say AE is scummy, like its a fact. You don't give reasons WHY he's scummy. You just say it, because the next part of the sentence makes no sense otherwise.
Because, yes, apparently agreeing with me means you're town. Yes, this makes perfect sense. If you agree with me, there's no way you're scum. ... Right? Again, this sentence makes no sense.
And then your final sentence is attacking ME again. Saying that I think people are not allowed to think differently. Which is used to discredit my arguments, because it implies they're only there because you think differently than me.
Did I mention this section SCREAMS scum-tell?
I agreed first? Oh dear, that's poor. I thought it was a good idea, so now it's a wagon?
And this is another scum-tactic: Deliberately misreading and/or misinterpretting a statement to make it sound stupid.
Before I start, I should let you know: The sarcastic-*******-voice ONLY works on the offensive. When used defensively, it makes it sound as if you have NO OTHER DEFENSE than to be sarcastic. Unless you already GAVE a defense. Then it works like the voice on the offensive.
Now, yes, you agreed first. The fact that you agreed first wouldn't be a problem if I thought you were town. But since I think you're scum, I'm talking about TIMING.
That is, it sounds like you're scum who planned this out, but you timed it badly. You jumped on the wagon too soon. You revealed yourself. It's like one scum attacking a player and another scum attacking just afterwards, adding one vote right after the other. When the player turns up town, the town looks at who voted when to make connections. Two scum jumping on one after the other are easy to find.
And yes, this is a wagon. Not because you thought it was a good idea. Because a lot of people are supporting it. It's a wagon, just like 7/9 people voting one player is a wagon. Not because any one player is supporting it, but because there are a ton of people on it.
What gives you this idea? and sucha hypothesis is another poor reason. This hasn't happened.
WRONG! It happened. You just didn't do it. Someone else did it for you. Reading = tech.
Again, where is this railroading? I don't like the random phase, especially in larger games, and so I thought it would be better to support this rather than just sit it out.
I already showed where and how it was railroading.
As for the random phase, I don't like it either. So I don't participate. I take that time to establish myself in the game, and read other players contributions. And I don't jump onto stupid plans.
Not all for, but was one of the reasons. What's wrong with that? It is not an 'obsession', but you keep making me repeat myself so I can undertsand why it sounds like that.
you yourself said this:
Because, as I stated earlier (here comes that rephrase you were waiting for, folks!):
THE DISCUSSION THAT YOU ARE SO FOCUSED ON IS A DISCUSSION BASED ON THE CLAIM ITSELF, NOT ON THE RESULTS OF THE CLAIM.
This also answers your next question, but I'll do it again anyways.
So how i that ok, but not me supporting a soft claim for EXACTLY the same reason?
It's NOT the same reason.
Claim: Generates discussion based on what people claim.
Nai-being-an-overzealous-bastard: Generates discussion based on what he says.
YOU are defending the claim based on the discussion of the CLAIM, not the results. I'm defending my overzealous attacks based on the discussion OF my attacks, not the discussion of me attacking. Yes, the people discussing how overzealous I am does help, but my attacks help because of the discussion about WHAT I said, not the fact that I AM SAYING it. See the difference?
It's the difference between discussing how well and how far a car drives vs. discussing the car itself.
After all that, I have a judgement to make.
You seem to be trying really hard to portray me as scum, particularly with the hypothetical statements. However, you do make good cases and you're zealousness for trying to find scum is very townie. I probably know how this is going to go down, but I'll Unvote for now. Re-reading pending if I have time, but know I've still got my eye on you. I find you scummy in very major respects, but mostly town.
FACE HEEL TURN!
For those who aren't tropers among us: This is when a person says one thing, then turns around and does something completely different! Like when Mini-Me goes and joins Austin Powers. He turns his back, spinning on his heel, on the evil side and joins the good.
In this case, we have Toast here saying that he finds me scummy, yet UNVOTES me. He'd usually only unvote me if he actually thinks I'm town.
The best part is, this is a reverse OMGUS. Toast has noticed how his attack on me is gaining no ground whatsoever. Knowing he's failed his attack, he's trying to fix his mistake by 'making up' with me.
@Ace, I don't particulalry think he's town, but will have a reread when I have time. I don't like the bit about tampering with the list, though.
I love this. Remember when Toast attacked me for voting Charm? The REASON he voted me? Now he's saying he doesn't really think Charm is town!
And here's the tampering the list thing again. Charm was the one who brought it up. No one accused him of it. And Toast is wording this like he doesn't like that charm DID tamper the list. If he was talking about Charm bringing up the possibility, he would have specified. Interesting, no?
Most of all, I think we need to finish this claim, then I will make more informed decisions.
Will update the claim in the next post.
Best part of all! Even through all of this, he's STILL railroading the claim. Even with the opposition, he's still trying to get people to claim their roles.
A TOWNIE, especially a good one, would see the opposition, see the points made, and HOLD UP THE CLAIM in order to see if its actually worth it.
The list implies nothing from my point of view, it's just something that we as a town can act on. If there were glaring objections they could have and would have been addressed before half the town had claimed. And since I didn't know how long I would be able to be on, I figured putting the list in play would help expedite things.
This, in and of itself, says nothing about why you thought I thought you had messed with the list.
I noted RafK's "disdain" (I say that in quotes because there has to be a better word, but it currently escapes me) of AE being last, which I took as a jab that I had made it so. Does he have a reason to think that?
I took it as Raf finding AE scummy, so he would have asked you to bump AE up the list so AE would have had to claim earlier.
No, I don't think he thinks you edited the list to put him last, nor do I think he would have a reason to.
This is a more legit reason, but I have no idea why you directed it at ME and not Raf.
Also, I'm not pleased with the speed the toast wagon is picking up right yet.
Why not? Take this as a direct request for you to respond to my accusations against him.
OKAY! Time to respond to more long-ass posts. How long has this gotten so far? I'm hoping to break the 16 pages I had for the PBPA earlier.
unvote, FOS Toast, I'm not yet convinced Toast is scum. He does seem to be routing conversation, and I'm still questioning his motives, but I'm not ready to take his wagon further than it has gone. I will say that he's backing off a little too quickly for me to think he is honestly scumhunting.
I'm pretty sure he isn't scumhunting here. It seemed more like an OMGUS at a person attacking a scumbuddy. He isn't going after anyone else, he's defending himself with very little attack on me. Seems like a scum who stuck his neck out and now has to deal with the consequences.
On the mass claim, it seems like there are really only two people against it at this point in the game: Nai and AE. AE I would expect since he's very protective of his role and his life as townie everything I have seen him be town. I know nothing of Nai, but his PBPA was clearly done as a method to collect his thoughts more than anything else (especially reading the response to my posts).
I actually had my thoughts. It was to post my thoughts, in relation to the actual posts in question, at everyone else so everyone can not only see what my thoughts are, but also see me point out things that don't add up, or seem overtly scummy.
In other words, it wasn't a list of thoughts. It was a PBPA. Big difference.
I will say that by the time I posted "Have at" I was behind the mass claim, not fence sitting. If the response to "Any objections" is "Have at" it really only means one thing. Sorry if my wording wasn't clear enough, but saying "I support a mass claim" is a bit robotic, and far too PC.
... I have no idea what the majority of this means, but it sounds like you're defending the fence-sitting. Since I don't understand the defense, please explain it better.
I feel that there has been something gained in the claim already that I was looking for in specific, but I'm waiting on saying what until the end of the mass claim.
How vague.
I don't feel CM was pushing the claim to hide the fact he claimed miller, I think he's pushing the claim in an honest want to be beneficial. I see his motivations as pure.
I never said he DID push the claim to hide his claim of miller. I said that his claim of miller was in a rather convenient place. He's claiming something that could be done by scum and, at the same time, claiming miller at the same time. I think he's scum. If I was a cop, I'd be investigating him. But with his claim of miller, I can't be sure if a guilty result (if I got one) would be accurate.
So, it's a convenient place to claim.
Rafk seems like he wants the mass claim to run its course entirely before we get into additional scum hunting, and I must say that I agree.
Why? We can always come back to it later. If someone seems to be massively scum, doesn't it benefit the town MORE to investigate? We get more information out of a lynch and the discussion given than we do out of a source-claim.
Toast... is the scummiest player so far. He's trying to curtail conversation early, attacked people without much conviction, pushed the mass claim harder than CM (also claiming first, a move that several players I know thinks is scummy), and he's been working way to hard to constantly update the mass claim list (I think he's up to 4 or 5).
Cheers, someone knows where I"m going from.
EWP: I want to make it clear that Toast is the person I feel is scummiest, and I would normally vote for him. However, I agree with CM that the wagon has grown too fast, and I don't want my random vote on his wagon.
Why does it seem to be 'growing too fast'? You agree that he's seeming the scummiest... Are you not interested in seeing him hang? I agree that it should go a little slower so we can get more information, but you didn't say that.
Also, why did you call your vote 'random'? Are you saying it would just be a bandwagon vote rather than a real one?
Okay, Grey basically sums up a lot of what I've already said. So I'm only quoting some points where I want to add/clarify something.
There are several reasons Nai could be getting upset about the softclaim here, and EACH ONE warrants this kind of a post. His post was not defensive at all, each of his posts so far have gone on the attack, or summed up the entire situation as a whole. I think you're reaching here.
Nice to see someone thought I wasn't being defensive. However, I do want to point out I'm not UPSET about the soft claim. It's a natural thing to want to do. I'm irritated at the TIMING, and how fast it took off.
|.) You say he admits to gaming the mod, and yet you use the gaming the mod reasoning of "not neccessarily main characters" in your 1st argument. You can't really say something is bad if you're doing it yourself.
Damn good point, actually. However, he was, I thought, basing that off of someone else saying they were not a main character.
Already explained how the discussion argument doesn't really work, and WAY back I explained that the soft lock thing is BS too. There are probably more mangas than Kithkin creature cards, and when a source claim was suggested in Kithkin mafia the reason was: Too many outs for the scum. That is the case here too. About the power roles? You are beginning to sound like you are fishing for WHICH ones they are, which is just another point against you.
Disagree about the soft lock being BS. Sure, there's plenty of options for them to choose from. But they have to STICK with that option. And like Raf said (I'll be commenting on this when I get to his post), any role/flavor/etc. cop can catch them on it easily.
The soft lock is true. But the information helping us NOW is false.
Wow. One of the "obvscum" posts I was talking about earlier. You start off by backing off, and seeming like the victim. "Big bad mean Nai was beating up on me and I didn't like it!" You think HIS style is condescending? You've played with kpaca before, be thankful HE isn't the one questioning right now, or you would've soggied your toasties...Also, more name calling, you are sounding like VERY frustrated scum here.
I must say, I admit I'm using my *******-voice. Though he DOES seem like he's running off like a little kid. The frustration is a good point, however.
BOOM! You know what that was? That was you exploding into a thousand little scum pieces. Nai believes that the person CM is scum and he brought up the source claim. You quickly agreed with it, and tried to get it rolling fairly quickly (and as you say above, you find nothing wrong with it going so quickly....) So in Nai's POV, that is easily two scumbuddies trying to help each other with the plan.
Something I've noticed, you're speaking for me an awful lot. Please don't do that. Let me speak for myself, thanks.
Finally, on to Raf. I've been wanting to respond to this since I first read it. Hope I don't forget anything.
And none of that is necessarily worth a damn. A false claim, no matter how obscure or easy to make, will be busted by a namecop/mangacop/whatever. A real claim runs the risk of someone having knowledge that a character from X is scum. This is the rock and the hard place the scum must guess between.
Now, a few things. You're assuming there's a name-cop or manga-cop, which is something I find far-fetched. I can see a regular cop or a role-cop. But someone who gets flavor? That's kinda a rare role. And yes, while it CAN happen, I don't think its a high enough possibility to use it for support for an argument like this.
And with all the mangas we have, there's little to no chance of a counterclaim on them, at least on flavor. ROLE, yes, but this claim is on FLAVOR and SOURCE, not on Role.
Plus sometimes people forget the details of their own false claims and trip themselves later on.
Plus sometimes people make up such ridiculously bad false claims (see: Erestor in LOTR, or cpe's false claim in RotTK) or get terribly unlucky (such as me inventing the falseclaim of the ADHD Kid in High School Mafia only to discover one of the other players actually had the role of the ADD Kid....).
True. This doesn't make the information useful NOW, though.
So you're saying we had something better to post about during this time? There's no deadline, nothing to waste, and as you said we have managed to do some scumhunting even while the claim is in progress. And people are giving reactions right left and centre. It's much better than spending the first few pages in random fluff, which is usually what happens.
Then? Nope. Now? Hell yes.
I also thought the same when I said my initial post against this claim. We had plenty of reactions to the claim to go off of then. And I thought we were unnecessarily revealing information to the scum that we weren't getting much off of.
We don't need to continue the claim at this point in time. Too many people have already done it. We have plenty to scumhunt with now, there's no NEED to continue the claim. IF we lynch Toast/Me/whoever, we can continue the claim tomorrow. If we finish the debates and discussion without a lynch, we can start the claim again.
I repeat: There is no need to continue this claim at this current time.
The ONE event where we would need to continue from here is if we're risking someone full-claiming who hasn't claimed a source yet. And Toast already claimed Yu Yu Hakusho, however you spell it.
I disagree. I don't see the point in wasting time. This kind of thing is either day 1 round 1 before the scum have their boots on, or else it's a late game thing for process of elimination.
In a normal claim, yes. If we're claiming anything that isn't so GENERAL and USELESS to the town, it's either really fast off the bat or it's later on to trap people. However, this isn't going to screw up the mafia that much. They simply have to choose a manga and stick with it. They were going to have to do the same thing later on anyways, we're not tripping them up.
Oh, and it would probably be useless late-game, as most would have already claimed.
If this was a claim for, say, NAMES, it would be different.
If you could give me any kind of example of a scum plan with strategic places to claim which could be screwedup by a townie jumping in...
Sure! How about this?
There's a finite number of official English-translated manga. Some of them are famous enough that people who aren't fans of manga will have heard of them. There are some that are rather obscure to anyone who isn't a fan.
Now, if their own roles don't tell them, scum won't know if we have popular manga or unpopular manga. Well known or unknown. And if they're going to fit in, they HAVE to know. They also may assume that popular manga have power roles.
So, if they go early, they can establish themselves as a popular manga, and therefore a power role. If they go late, they know what type of manga are being claimed and they can claim accordingly to fit in. They also will have a better chance of not overlapping a claim if they go late.
Likely, one scum would go early in order to establish a power claim and see if they can get someone worried if they're from the same manga. Two from Hellsing? Could be a problem. Then the rest can scatter, probably towards later on in the claim so they can fit the rest of the themes shown.
Now, if someone messed up the strategy? A townie jumping in earlier and being the second on to claim that power-source? Or a townie jumping in and claiming exactly what a scum was going to claim JUST before the scum was to claim? That'd put a crimp in the strategy right there, now wouldn't it?
You want to find a scum thing in this post, but as I said, it's actually one of the most definitely town posts in the game so far. I would put this down as a big town tell, unless he's subtle enough and quick enough to think to fake annoyance in that situation (and that's so subtle that maybe no-one would pick up on it, so I would say not).
You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying about the post. He could be annoyed for many reasons, and he could just be faking it.
What I find scummy is the fact that he doesn't chastise NA for jumping out of place in a list that's made to keep scum off-balance. The list is THERE to force scum to act like we want them to, and anyone not following the rule is acting like scum. No, he chastises NA because he didn't want anyone giving their source randomly. Why is randomly such a big factor? Random is only a problem if you have planned something that requires non-random factors.
THAT is why I think its scummy. Not the irritation, faked or not. The REASON STATED for the irritation.
If you're going to respond to this, respond to THAT. I'm suspicious because of his REASON for being irritated, not for BEING irritated. The fact that you're focusing on the one I'm NOT talking about is suspicious.
Reason I backed off on Nai was because I am scumhunting. After that big post, he seemed far more town.
This makes no sense.
You think I'm scummy. You have yet to provide the name of someone you think is scummier. So why back down on me? If you think I'm scummy, you should go after me. Build a case. Try to get me lynched. Especially if there's no on else. There's very little reason at this juncture for you to back away if you have no other person, or thing, you need to work on.
And the only other THING you have to do is railroad the claim (like you did at the end of your previous post), and you're already getting flack for that.
I'm not trying to curtail conversation - the reason I did this was to create it, and it has. Updating the claim list is because I know I'm the only person who will. No-one else wants to be associated with this claim, because it's taking me down.
I already stated how the discussion thing is craplogic.
Also, if no one else wants to be associated with the claim because its taking you down, and if you KNOW its getting you in trouble... Why are you continuing it?
Because they had bad reasons in my opinion.
So, in your opinion, the people attacking AE have bad reasons for attacking him? Or AE has bad reasons for refusing to cooperate? Be more specific.
I am not contradicting myself. I think scumfishing is a poor reason.The only reason? no, you have already stated other reasons. I have stated my thoughts on this already; it isn't specific enough for the scum to get ideas of power roles, but specific enough to put a soft lock on.
How do you KNOW it isn't specific enough? I can think of quite a few main characters who have obvious roles attached to them. I wish I could give examples at this point, but due to the radio silence about it, I have to wait.
It was a very large, detailed and therefore impressive post. Don't pretend this is any sort of a tell.
Detailed and large do not equal good, and they do not equal good enough to suck up. If my post was good enough to compliment, it probably should not have had so many points for you to assault.
The post felt defensive to me, hence why I said it. He was being aggressive where there had been no attacks on him.
I'll note that you didn't actually say HOW its defensive in any way. After Stormblind in Inheritance, I'm close to discounting all gut feelings that have no data-based back-up.
1. Gaming the mod yourself, follow your own advice.
2. It is completely the opposite of gaming the mod. Nothing is taken for granted.
3. Incorrect. This discussion has attracted my attention to Nai, who I will give a judgement on, RafK, who I believe is town, Yourself, who I can't really get a read on and AE who I think is defensive, but probably town.
4. The turth is, I honsetly didn't forse this much bother over a soft claim. I'm still finding it hard to understand.
You really like accusing people of gaming the mod.
And you're taking for granted, based on ONE person's statement, that there are minor roles in this game.
I do, however, disagree with him on 3.
And your number 4 has nothing to do with his number 4, and you completely ignore what he says afterwards. Not a good way to be town.
you haven't 'explained how' you have given your opinion, something many disagree with. I spoke about power roles because Nai did. It seems you're not reaind the quotes the comments go with, more later on. Reading = tech.
There are good points here, especially with me bringing up power roles before you did. I forget who brought it up first, I don't THINK it was me. I think AE brought up power roles first.
What? he said you could discount it, but didn't want it discounted? You need to make sense to make bold statements like that.
I explained this already.
I stated that Nai accused C_M of something I did, and that that was suspicious.
Ah! Here's one.
I accused him of bringing up the list too fast after he asked for objections. To me, doing this means he wants to see it through.
YOU want to see it through too, almost as badly. So this is absolute craplogic. You BOTH want to see it through. But because he made the list, I was initially more suspicious of him.
Do explain how it was suspicious that I accused him of something you BOTH are guilty of.
Here it is again, you're not reading the quote I made. Nai said he had given both upsides and downsides, which he hadn't. You're trying hard to portray me as scummy. If you think there are no upsides, then you are being very narrow-minded. I have never denied that there are downsides, just that I don't think they are worth stopping the claim.
Did, actually. I put forth the ONE upside I saw to the claim. Reading = tech.
Backing up and seeming like the victim? no. You are pushing sentiments on me. If I get caught up in an argument, I take things as scummy which aren't. see my first game where I implode quite beautifully, Newb #27. His style in that post was highly condescending, but you're too busy bending over for him to see. I was frustrated, as I am now, but that is a tell. I did get moreso throughout the post, because Nai's posting was getting more condescending. However, I can admit when I'm wrong. That isn't scummy.
You're really big on this 'putting sentiments on you' thing. Even though its something we HAVE to do in order to prove you are scum. Scum and Town can do the exact same things in certain cases. However, both have different motivations to do so. Unless we put sentiment onto you, there is no difference between the two. Sentiment is what makes an action damning.
And yes, I'm highly condescending. As I said, there's a reason for it, and its not going to stop.
AE was not scummy because he agreed with Nai, but for the way he refused to claim. You complied when you didn't want to and now someone else has come against it you feel you can too. Not trying to blend in are we? Indignation because he attacked someone for not voting me or CM. You are still clearly either not reading/ignoring the quotes the I was responding to. Baseless atacks? no.
You ARE attacking a lot without giving actual reasons or evidence towards it.
And it was I who agreed with AE, if we're talking straight up timing of posts. I think we both found things scummy simultaneously, and he just wrote his thoughts out faster than me. I prefer long and detailed posts, as everyone knows.
I really dislike the way you push sentiments onto my posts that aren't there. I was irritated, as I have admitted, because its a poor idea. I understand his POV, but I think its a rubbish reason.
More about sentiments. I jumped on you for using 'discussion' so much as a defense. Now I'm jumping on you for sentiment. I explained in this post why sentiment is required in an attack. I fully expect you to stop defending yourself with it afterwards.
Pretty convinced earlier, yes, but his huge post gave me plenty of evidence to change that view. Want to kill him? You really try and read a lot into irritation and sarcasm. Not buddying up to him, saying he seemed more town. Quite clearly, I think he has some scum points but he is obviously scumhunting as I am trying to do.
Funny, with some of your responses to said big post, you seemed to find me scummier than ever.
NO, I said I wanted to leave it till after the claim and a reread. And by wagoning, to you mean exactly like you have done to me?
The claim should wait, not the scumhunt. The claim waiting doesn't hurt us. Not hunting for scum does.
I think it is important to finish the claim so no-one is let off the hook.
If they're not dead when we pick up the claim again, they're not off the hook.
Hoenstly Greymon, I think you are very scummy after this post, far moreso than Nai. At least he doesn't have to wait for support to make his own attacks. You try and make it seem like I'm imploding and turning in on myself, tripping up at every corner with such a zeal that I really think you are scum. However, I won't vote until I've made a decision on Nai, CM and finished the soft claim.
It may be that he didn't think you were scum until NOW. I know this is defending him a little, but I find this attack baseless. I have had many occasions where I find someone initially townie, but the more they defend themselves, the more I think they're scum.
I'd think it highly unlikely a standard game this size is without a town vig.
You may be right. I may be a little too focused on the 'assumption of role' after reading RafK's assumption on a cop able to use this information.
Also, there's not much point in a cop trying to investigate CM. He'll either get a scum result from CM being a town miller, or a scum result because he's scum. Based on his source, the town miller claim might be correct, but considering his actions thus far in the game, if I were in the position of being able to vig someone, CM would be a valid target right now.
You have a point. There's not much we can do about him other than just lynch him to see his alignment. However, I know of a better target. Can you read my mind?
So here's my stance on the whole situation. I'm not claiming. I don't really see the validity of it. In most manga's there is typically 1 character that is the anti-hero. Not the villain, just not the hero. Usually they start of as a villain and get redeemed by the hero. So given this, I don't think that this claim has any validation in narrowing down scum options at a later claim. That said I feel all the points brought up against Toast are valid and as such I will be leaving my random vote where it is. Your post 119 seems like a very fast backpedal. I also found your lack of willingness to continue to quote your source correctly very childish and almost OMGUS. Since you are so adamant on finishing the soft claim, I'll say it again, I'm not revealing my source.
I don't mind you not claiming. I mind your reasoning for it. The manga you claim isn't going to give us information on your role, anti-hero or not. So it's not going to hurt you. And your entire anti-hero argument is complete craplogic.
I want to see more for you, especially more reasoning. I'm tempted to change my vote to you, but I'm half-thinking you're just a townie with bad reasoning.
Wow. For those of us keeping track, that craptastic post was Oni's SECOND whole post in the game. 7 pages, 4 real life days, and we get 1 post that defends kamigawa block, lurk, lurk, lurk, then 1 post that refuses to participate. Just wow.
Also, for those of you (Oni and AE) who don't want to claim your source, and are citing the reason "because it doesn't help town narrow down scum", why have you not answered the question of "but how does it HURT the town"? And because its already been said that there are hundreds of characters in numerous manga to choose from, you can't say that a source will will out town power roles.
There are some things that don't hurt the town but don't help the town. Now, the question is, which is more important? If it doesn't help the town, is it still a valid action even if it doesn't hurt us?
Someone claims vanilla townie. The role-cop investigates him. He finds that the person is a vanilla.
Does this help the town? Nope. The role-cop would be best used on someone else. Does it hurt the town? Nope, we have a confirmed vanilla.
Indeed. His post seems also to lay a backdoor escape route. What do I mean? If we force him to claim, his claim will sound scummy. To explain this apparent scuminess, he will claim he is the redeemed version of his character.
Vote Onikuma
You have a very good point. I'd like more information from him.
What kind of reasoning is that? The point is to lock the scum into a claim of a specific source. How does that not narrow down the claim options? What if they choose poorly and somebody is able to counter claim? The point is that this in no way is damaging the town, but locks the scum into either false claiming, or sticking with their role. This post also sounds not like a defense but that you have something to hide. Thanks for making this easy.
Unvote Vote: Oni Kuma
Edit by preview: Very good point Infinis.
As I've said before, it locks the scum into claim options. But with so many options to choose from, the lock isn't going to hurt them that much at this time. Later on, when we learn powers and who gets what role, THEN they may be hurt. And later on, when we learn the basic criteria for manga chosen, THEN it may hurt them. For now, they lose nothing by false claiming. They can even true-claim their manga and STILL lose nothing.
Oni just basically said: "Hi, I'm from a manga where my role can easily be identified from the title. Please kill me."
This one, I don't get. Can you explain your reasoning.
It's unlikely he's mafia, they had a chance to communicate night 0 and possibly set this whole soft-claim business up. That makes him town or independent. The fact he used the term "Anti-Hero" in his post, makes me think independent though.
Unvote, Vote Oni Kuma
Quite possible. Is it likely there's a survivor or other independent role here?
This doesn't by any means get Toastboy or CM off the hot seat. Oni just managed to put himself at the front of the queue.
I'm amused that it took Oni until post #121 to voice his concerns. As debated as this soft-name-claim is, we must make sure all participate, otherwise scum are going to sit back and giggle as they refuse to claim because it's 'anti-town'.
We've started this, we need to finish it. Claim Oni.
I'd be happy with a soft claim. Why do you feel he's suspicious enough for a full claim?
There you go. Perfect example of an anit hero. And if the point is to limit the scum's chance of a claim by restricting them to a series I don't think this is valid. Simply because you stand a better shot of the scum claiming a major character if they don't know which manga's are truely out there. Now all scum has to do is pick a minor character that noone else could possibly stand a chance of being.
You're basically claiming anti-hero at this point. Which is hurting you more than the series claim would have.
I would advise you claim. Not because of the mass claim, but because of how many votes you have now.
Anyone else want to see if he changes his tune at 7?
Less triviality of a potential runaway lynch would be nice.
Besides trying to explain your claim in advance, what is the point of this exactly? Anti-hero character exist, no kidding.
There are Lots And Lots Of Characters in a lot of manga. I know. That's why a series claim shouldn't give much away to the scum about the town's roles.
Quite a nice point. I put that earlier in my post.
The point is to put scum in a position where they have to decide without much information and without discussing with their friends whether they tell the truth or tell a lie, both of which have risks depending on what secret information and powers townies have. This has been explained.
Ayup. This is true. I still maintain it doesn't help us much right now, though.
That worked so well when it was known as the "Erestor" claim in LOTR Mafia
It would also work beautifully to turn any namecop or mangacop or similar role into the equivalent of a full cop, win for us!
Now, claim your series.
Your continued assumption that there's a cop that can use this information is noted.
Oni Kuma, the thing is, you just got the entire game to jump on you, that was one of the worst things I could think of doing. Your posts drips scummy, (or at least trying to hide something). I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for now, but I may well change it into a vote later.
@Shadow Knight: It has only been 4 days, as you said, some people don't have as much time as others and don't get to check this more than once every 1-2 days.
Yes, you really should have. You put that on in the random vote phase.
I'm SURE he's trying to hide something, but I'm not sure it's scum. I'm amused by all the people jumping on his butt.
And given his excuse, I'm willing to grant him leniency on his timing. I've taken longer to make a post for much less important reasons. I hope that type of thing doesn't come up in this game.
@NA- nice of you to defend him *after* he cited a real life issue (hope she's feeling better soon). I fully enjoy that you managed to make a post almost as scummy as he did.
Being a dick is not the same as acting scummy. And I really don't think that was even that much of a dick move. Real life issues are issues outside of the game. While he may be having problems in real life (granted, that is a serious one), they don't excuse what he says in the game. For real life issues you get time, not room for err.
Other than I think you're wrong about Toastboy and I'm glad you agree that Oni needs to talk, and I think there's seriously no reason whatsoever to stop the claim in the middle- after I've claimed, Toastboy's claimed, etc, but before you or AE has claimed a series? Come on Nai, really, there's NOT enough to go on, the point is defeated to stop now- there's not much to say.
You're going around in circles as to why you oppose the claim. You're repeatng yourself a LOT, and most of the things you are repeating (like your belief that that post of Charm Master's was scummy) I disagree with, have explained why I disagree with, and you aren't adding anything new to it (which is not a surprise because there has been so little new material since your last big post).
I am not reading you as scum at the moment, just town...
Quote from Nai »
I'm tempted to agree with Grey and say this comes off as ass kissing. But considering the amount of time and effort I put into that, and knowing that it was GOOD, I'll just take it as a compliment.
with an enormous stick up your backside. At least one of those barning in on your points is a different story- Greymon did nothing but barn you, slather Toastboy in sarcasm, and act like he had the best case since sliced bread.
Come on town, why did this wagon on Oni Kuma grow exponentially fast?
It's the traditional way to make people talk who don't want to talk.
Not wanting to soft claimDay One is NOT a scumtell. It reads more as Newb Town than scum,
Possibly. The eagerness to explain away his upcoming claim before he makes it IS a scum tell, albeit one I can also see from a newbie town with a suspicious role. But it can't just be handwaved.
I think we have nabbed a scum in Toastboy, and a good candidate to look at D2 in terms of CM, don't lose sight of that yet.
The Toastboy wagon is bad; the CM wagon is terrible. Nai insists that a scum would be annoyed if a townie claimed earlier than he was listed to do, depite not actually explaining why the heck a scum would ever be annoyed with that. What's your reasons for thinking CM is a good candidate, Grey?
Actually, Raf, I -did- explain a reason why Scum could be annoyed. And the statement about CM being annoyed scum in that post has NOTHING to do with the case on Toastboy.
Gah. That's a huge post. I'll make a couple comments.
THEN you outright claim, starting the claim. Before there was even a majority agreement, much less total agreement. Before anyone had a chance to object. Before the downsides had been stated. You started it.
You forced it through. You kept the claim on its tracks before anyone even had a chance to TRY to derail it. In other words: YOU RAILROADED THE CLAIM..
I'd like to point out that had I not blitz-killed Azrael day 1 in "Hats Mafia" (and derailed the mass-claim in the process), the scum would likely have been able to coast to an easy win. Yes, it was paranoid luck on my part, but I won't complain about it.
As for my comments on Oni's refuse-to-claim post?
1) The premise that only 1 or 2 main characters from each manga are in this game occured to me. That's why I found Infinis' and RafaelK's same source claim so interesting.
2) Oni basically refused to claim because (in my opinon) he figured that his role would be immediately identifiable as a power role, just from the title.
In effect, if he's town, he just painted a huge target on himself tonight, hence the "kill me now" statement.
His "Anti-Hero" bit doesn't help him in that regard though, as it implies that he isn't a "nice guy". If this is a mafia-initated mass-claim, he wouldn't have any objections if he were mafia. The only way I can see him as objecting like that, and still be scum, is if he were independent. SK is both an independent role and a power role. And it's fairly common...
And Death Note characters have been showing up in mafia games a lot lately. (yes, it's unfounded metagaming, but meta'ing the Mod does work sometimes)
Actually, Raf, I -did- explain a reason why Scum could be annoyed.
Not really (but I did miss that you'd tried, my apologies).
Quote from Nai »
What I find scummy is the fact that he doesn't chastise NA for jumping out of place in a list that's made to keep scum off-balance. The list is THERE to force scum to act like we want them to, and anyone not following the rule is acting like scum. No, he chastises NA because he didn't want anyone giving their source randomly. Why is randomly such a big factor? Random is only a problem if you have planned something that requires non-random factors.
THAT is why I think its scummy. Not the irritation, faked or not. The REASON STATED for the irritation.
There is no distinction here, at all. Jumping in randomly IS jumping in out of place, and you still haven't explained why a scum would be annoyed at a townie jumping in early (which, for your theory to work, is what must have happened there).
I think the word I"m looking for here is strawmanning. You're giving me a straw man argument.
My argument here is that CM gave a non-townie reason for being annoyed. That he didn't want him to jump in randomly. Which is NOT the same as saying that a person that doesn't follow the list made to catch scum is not acting in the town's best interest. I'm saying he's not acting like TOWN.
YOU keep changing the argument to 'why would scum be irritated at town not following the plan'. Scum wants to act like town. Town would be annoyed at it. So scum acts annoyed. Or, perhaps, really IS annoyed that the plan isn't going right. I don't know. The point is, it seems scummy to me.
Nai, you're obfuscating. Whoever it was jumped in ahead of the order. A townie has every reason to be annoyed at that because the idea of the order is so scum (hopefully) don't all get to go at the end, and a townie moving up the order means scum move down.
Quote from Nai »
Why is randomly such a big factor? Random is only a problem if you have planned something that requires non-random factors.
Explained above (and has been explained prior to this) as to why it is a problem.
CM expressed exactly that sort of annoyance.
I can't even think of why a scum would be lannoyed in that situation AT ALL, and you haven't given a single reason either, other than you think his annoyance is "not town". Why is it not town? Because you apparently think being against jumping in randomly is not town. And you are wrong.
You wanting to stop the claims before your own turn comes up is an actually scummy thing to do, and yet you seem to have no problem with it. Seriously, pull the stick out. And learn to edit yourself into a readable format.
You just strawmanned AFTER I called you out on strawmanning. I'm close to the point of refusing to continue the discussion until you actually discuss what I am discussing, which is that CM gave a non-townie reason to be annoyed, instead of the straw man YOU want to discuss, that scum wouldn't be annoyed in the first place.
And what format would you like? I have the base font and base size and base color. I don't know another format you would prefer.
until you actually discuss what I am discussing, which is that CM gave a non-townie reason to be annoyed
I explained about 3 times already why it was a very townie reason to be annoyed. I am very much discussing what you are discussing. I am not dtrawmanning diddly squat.
After I explained why it was a townie reason, I added that I could not see why you were saying it was a non-townie reason, and finished with
the straw man YOU want to discuss, that scum wouldn't be annoyed in the first place.
Which you have still failed to rebut at all, this time by flat out failing to reply to it.
I also like that you failed to answer at all as to why you think it's okay for the claim to stop now, before you claim, and that that's not scummy at all.
And what format would you like? I have the base font and base size and base color. I don't know another format you would prefer.
A more succinct one that gets to the point a little faster. I am scared of what will happen when you have more than 40 posts at a time to do a PBPA on. It might crash the server.
And I like doing my long and drawn out one. It makes sure people know EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. People often try to misinterpret what I'm saying, and I'm trying to avoid that.
I actually just forgot to reply to your question about the claim stop. I had it in mind, but then I got irritated by your strawmanning.
First of all, as I've said MANY times, we can pick up the claim again later.
Second of all, my wanting to stop the claim has nothing to do with my place in it.
Third, I see no reason for me to claim when I did not agree to this mass claim. I see the entire claim as invalid, due to lack of AT LEAST majority agreement on the part of the town.
Fourth, I'm pretty convinced at least two people who started it are mafia, and I see no reason to give the mafia what they want.
I'm not on trial here, Raf, and I see no reason to give away role information for mafia to use when I do not see it helping the town at all. Especially at a time when there are other people to focus on. Like Toast. Who, I can't help but notice, you never really comment on. Other than to say the wagon is bad without giving any actual reasoning for it.
Moreover, if I actually DID give a claim, and STILL was trying to stop the claim, you'd treat me like Grey was being treated. Called a hypocrite for claiming and then going and saying he was against the claim. You're trying to put me in a catch 22 here.
That said, I'd probably source-claim if the majority of the town asked for it, since that'd mean the majority thought it would help the town.
Now, as for the argument at hand:
CM didn't say ANYTHING about NA helping scum. He didn't say anything about what YOU are saying, that townies moving up means scum move down (note that you're assuming NA is town here, which is interesting). He didn't say anything about the fact that its scummy that someone would ignore the list like that. He didn't lecture NA on WHY being random is weird.
THAT is what I find scummy, which is something you either seem to ignore, omit, or misunderstand. It's the content, or lack thereof, in the chastisement. It doesn't fit my mental image of town in this situation. His 'lecture' to NA was simply 'the list is so people don't go in random order'. It didn't say ANYTHING about how the list was there to catch scum, or how going random like that could hurt chances of trapping scum. Why? If he's GOING to lecture NA, why not give him a REASON going random is bad for town?
Simplest two answers for me:
1.) He's town that doesn't know why we use a list, so didn't know what to say to NA, and was irritated that NA didn't follow directions.
2.) He's scum, the order in his list was screwed up by someone not following directions, and he didn't have a legit reason to chastise him.
A minor note, the wagon on Oni is growing FASTER than the one on Toast, and no one seems to have a problem with it. Which is amusing.
For what it's worth, I haven't raised an objection to the wagon because I haven't been on to do so. WTF guys?
However, looking at his recent posts here and elsewhere on site, his claim of "I haven't had time to post" is really...flimsy. he's had 14 posts on the site in 3 days, which is a lot IMO for someone who is having trouble with posting. His refusal to claim for such a bad reason also reeks.
Oni needs to claim. Vote Oni, but only for that purpose. I intend to unvote barring a ridiculous claim.
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I'm pretty sure he isn't scumhunting here. It seemed more like an OMGUS at a person attacking a scumbuddy. He isn't going after anyone else, he's defending himself with very little attack on me. Seems like a scum who stuck his neck out and now has to deal with the consequences.
I'm saying that I doubt he's scumhunting. Reread my post.
I actually had my thoughts. It was to post my thoughts, in relation to the actual posts in question, at everyone else so everyone can not only see what my thoughts are, but also see me point out things that don't add up, or seem overtly scummy.
In other words, it wasn't a list of thoughts. It was a PBPA. Big difference.
OK, so you collected your thoughts into a PBPA. I was saying you look town to me for doing so.
... I have no idea what the majority of this means, but it sounds like you're defending the fence-sitting. Since I don't understand the defense, please explain it better.
OK, I'm not sure what's up here, but you seem to have trouble understanding me period.
I am simply saying that despite any fence-sitting attitudes that you have read into my post saying "have at", I was for the mass claim and I feel that it should be evident in my post.
How vague.
Glad you can see that I was being vague.
I never said he DID push the claim to hide his claim of miller. I said that his claim of miller was in a rather convenient place. He's claiming something that could be done by scum and, at the same time, claiming miller at the same time. I think he's scum. If I was a cop, I'd be investigating him. But with his claim of miller, I can't be sure if a guilty result (if I got one) would be accurate.
So, it's a convenient place to claim.
First, my thoughts on CM had nothing to do with your post, I just didn't make it clear in my post. It was not a response to anything you've said.
Second, all millers are supposed to claim Day 1.
Why? We can always come back to it later. If someone seems to be massively scum, doesn't it benefit the town MORE to investigate? We get more information out of a lynch and the discussion given than we do out of a source-claim.
I can only see harm in doing a 3/4 mass claim at this point. Since it's started, we should finish it.
We should also continue to discuss other items in the game as well, such as what you've been saying.
Cheers, someone knows where I"m going from.
OK... so why do you feel like I'm attacking you in some fashion?
Why does it seem to be 'growing too fast'?
I grew only slightly faster than Oni Kuma's wagon, which I'm also not pleased with.
You agree that he's seeming the scummiest... Are you not interested in seeing him hang?
There was plenty Toast still had to respond to before I was ready to vote for him.
I agree that it should go a little slower so we can get more information, but you didn't say that.
So we were on the same page the whole time, I just didn't explicitly say the words you wanted to hear.
Also, why did you call your vote 'random'? Are you saying it would just be a bandwagon vote rather than a real one?
My vote was on Toast from the random phase still.
Hopefully this clears some thing up for you. I still need to fully catch up with the thread.
Yes indeed, and a lot of the logic in it seems sound.
RafK and Infinis have overlapping source claims, which I find very interesting. Otherwise, not much to comment at this time that hasn't already been said. No need to get into "off-the-wall" theories when there's some scummy looking players staring at you right in the face.
Vote Toastboy, Charm can probably wait. I'd expect him to get vigged on general principle tonight if he's still around, assuming HE isn't the vig.
Oni just basically said: "Hi, I'm from a manga where my role can easily be identified from the title. Please kill me."
It's unlikely he's mafia, they had a chance to communicate night 0 and possibly set this whole soft-claim business up. That makes him town or independent. The fact he used the term "Anti-Hero" in his post, makes me think independent though.
Unvote, Vote Oni Kuma
This doesn't by any means get Toastboy or CM off the hot seat. Oni just managed to put himself at the front of the queue.
I'm not understanding how a vote for a player you feel is scum should be moved to an a player you fell is independant.
Sure L-2 is lynch time. I'm Yusuke Urame**** from Yu Yu Hakusho. Try and deny it, I care for Keiko. I'm not special in any way and I win when all non-Town are dead.
we got what we needed, barring a counter claim I feel we can go on before reviewing it.
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1.) He's town that doesn't know why we use a list, so didn't know what to say to NA, and was irritated that NA didn't follow directions.
2.) He's scum, the order in his list was screwed up by someone not following directions, and he didn't have a legit reason to chastise him.
And for about the 5th or 6th time now, that second one makes no sense whatsoever.
WTF does a scum care if someone doesn't follow the list? That's the thing you don't and can't answer.
Au contraire, if townies jump in and claim before the scum does, all the better for the scum.
Therefore, for the 5th or 6th time now, the only explanations to me for CM caring are that he's town, or he's scum faking the caring. And it seems too subtle a thing for him to think to fake, hence I think he's town.
Charlie did say he wasn't going to start without a replacement....so I would think he had one ready.
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Unvote, Vote Toastboy. No offence Oni, while you may have thought you were doing the right thing by not claiming, it diverted everyone's attention to you. Your reasoning behind it (the anti-hero bit?) didn't help matters much.
Quote from Emo Pinata »
I'm not understanding how a vote for a player you feel is scum should be moved to an a player you feel is independent.
Consider this. If you have the opportunity to lynch a mafioso or a SK Day 1, which do you choose? You choose the SK, as that eliminates all the SK's nightkill attempts for the rest of the game. Lynching a mafioso Day 1 doesn't stop all the mafia's NK's for the rest of the game. Occasionally the SK serves as a second vig, but more often than not his continued presence is to the town's detriment.
I'm mostly against this claim because of how it started, how it took off, and how it's continuing. If the claim had been presented on day 2 or 3, with actual discussion, and if it hadn't been pushed through so quickly, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it. I just don't see any benefit for the town in the short term by doing this, and its, currently, not helping us find scum TODAY. I'd much rather, in just about every instance, find and lynch scum TODAY than make it easier for me to trap scum TOMORROW.
Tilde @ 104: Why do you assume there IS a vig? I'm curious.
Rafael @ 105: Usually when I see this type of confidence, someone stating something as if its fact, I assume there's a REASON they state it as fact. Mafia is, in its nature, a game of unknowns. Everyone, INCLUDING the Mafia, start out without all the facts. They must build it as they go. And anyone who is as confident as you about anything in the game, ESPECIALLY at this early stage, I'm suspicious of. Either they know something I don't, or they think they have a way of making their will happen. You say that AE -will- claim. So my experience says you have some way to make him claim.
And no, your vote alone wouldn't make him claim. But, again, I have to assume you know something I don't. Threats don't work when the person you're threatening doesn't FEEL threatened. Any mafia player worth his salt knows that your vote alone doesn't mean diddly. It's only when he has a lot on him that he'll feel threatened. And currently, he has no such thing.
And by 'wanting the claim to go through', I'd like to append a 'come hell or high water' to that. Not just your statement of wanting the claim, but wanting the claim bad enough to actually do something to anyone that doesn't go along with it. This type of ruthlessness is not something I usually do, or want to, see in a townie.
Thank you for acknowledging the distinction between a direct and indirect defense.
And I wish people could understand that priorities change in a game of Mafia. Especially when posts like Toast's come along, especially when several hours pass. Especially when a long post like mine comes through that shows the player is actively thinking about the game and going over things.
As I went over it for post 93, I realized that, with how Toast responded to me (especially the vote) along with his other actions, he was much scummier than CM. That doesn't mean CM isn't scummy. It just means Toast is scummier. I think they both need to hang, but Toast is a much more convincing candidate, and therefore gets my vote instead. I -do- think that, at this time, the miller thing is a cover and an excuse. But I still think Toast is a better candidate for deletion. This said, I will admit I have only played one or less games with an actual miller, and I don't know how the gameplay is SUPPOSED to go with them.
And I think that your statement about an OMGUS is craplogic. I went and reread the entire game up to post 92 and, in such, realized that Toast was so much more scummier than CM. Yes, his actual post responding to me voting for CM, and subsequent vote for me based on craplogic, is what prompted me to do the reread. However, an OMGUS vote is a vote that's made in retaliation with the intent of 'oh my god you suck and I can't believe you voted me so I'm going to vote you back just to spite'. Whereas mine was, "You voted me based on stupid reasons, so I reread your posts and realized that you're the scummiest person in the game, therefore I'm voting you." Big, big difference.
You're correct in that length of post is not relevant to OMGUS. But CONTENT of post is.
Nightarcher @ 106
I love when people say that I'm 'painting' others to seem scummy. Someone says something similar at least once every game. I have yet to have a game where someone says that that I -don't- turn up town. No, that doesn't mean there isn't a chance of it happening (even in this game), but the statement's amusing to me at this point. And yes, logic like this has, in the past, served me wrong. Frenger in Rogue Squadron mafia, for instance. I will note, though, that when I'm zealous like this, it -does- get a crapton of discussion that tends to turn up others for questioning.
RafaelK @ 109
In context, RafaelK, it makes perfect sense. Think about it. How many Manga are there actually in the world. SEveral thousand? Hell, I have at least 30 different titles in my bookcase ten feet from me, and there's another 100 or so in my local bookstore. We only have 17 players. And those are just the titles imported to America, many of which are famous. There are THOUSANDS still in Japan that rarely get translated over here. There's too many places for Scum to hide. Especially scum that know their source material.
No, I don't know for a fact that we're gaining nothing out of this. But I'm reasonably certain (not 100% mind you) that the information gleaned from the claim won't match an actual scumhunt we could (and now currently are, it seems) be doing in the meantime. Especially if we start focusing on how the claim actually took off, the people in question, and what their motivations are.
Again, I'd be HAPPY to do this on day 2 or three. But this just doesn't belong on day 1, especially not on page 2.
Now, as for the PBPA.
These posts were not done from memory. I actually went to each post and made notes on them to post to you guys as I went down. For post 49, I -did- think that Emo was being a scummy weasel. Fence sitting of that caliber always pings on my radar. You're pretty much right, that IS a 'don't trust this guy'. I usually, as I said in Inheritance, make posts like that in order for me or others to dig up later. I respond to things that may not seem important now, but they ping me, and I'll end up picking them up later when more important things come up. If EP ever comes up as a lynch candidate, I'll likely come back, notice that, and point out he worded his post to say he was in support of the claim while still giving himself deniability in case it went wrong. If it DOES go wrong, I can point out that EP was ready to hop off. If it doesn't, EP could be a townie hedging his bets or a scum doing a 'just in case' post. I don't know. It's something I do.
As for post 58, it's not that CM is irritated by NA. That's not what actually pings me. It's that he doesn't say WHY skipping the list is a bad thing. He doesn't give reasoning for not skipping the list, he basically just chastises NA for not following the plan. Town has a good reason for following the plan: So scum can't lurk, and so scum don't get to choose when they reveal for their own reasons. A scum-based plan, on the other hand, would place scum at the (currently) most strategic places to claim. A townie jumping in would irritate scum because parts of the plan would be screwed up. But scum wouldn't have a TOWNIE reason for being pissed, so they'd have to make up a scum reason. Like, say, 'I don't want people randomly stating what they're from."
Both scum AND town, to me, would be irritated. But they'd likely state different reasons. The reason CM stated was scummy to me, not the response from a town. Especially not the response from a town who would know enough to know that we'd NEED a list to start with.
Make sense?
My helpdesk should you need me.
The list implies nothing from my point of view, it's just something that we as a town can act on. If there were glaring objections they could have and would have been addressed before half the town had claimed. And since I didn't know how long I would be able to be on, I figured putting the list in play would help expedite things.
I noted RafK's "disdain" (I say that in quotes because there has to be a better word, but it currently escapes me) of AE being last, which I took as a jab that I had made it so. Does he have a reason to think that?
Also, I'm not pleased with the speed the toast wagon is picking up right yet.
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On the mass claim, it seems like there are really only two people against it at this point in the game: Nai and AE. AE I would expect since he's very protective of his role and his life as townie everything I have seen him be town. I know nothing of Nai, but his PBPA was clearly done as a method to collect his thoughts more than anything else (especially reading the response to my posts).
I will say that by the time I posted "Have at" I was behind the mass claim, not fence sitting. If the response to "Any objections" is "Have at" it really only means one thing. Sorry if my wording wasn't clear enough, but saying "I support a mass claim" is a bit robotic, and far too PC.
I feel that there has been something gained in the claim already that I was looking for in specific, but I'm waiting on saying what until the end of the mass claim.
I don't feel CM was pushing the claim to hide the fact he claimed miller, I think he's pushing the claim in an honest want to be beneficial. I see his motivations as pure.
Rafk seems like he wants the mass claim to run its course entirely before we get into additional scum hunting, and I must say that I agree.
Toast... is the scummiest player so far. He's trying to curtail conversation early, attacked people without much conviction, pushed the mass claim harder than CM (also claiming first, a move that several players I know thinks is scummy), and he's been working way to hard to constantly update the mass claim list (I think he's up to 4 or 5).
EWP: I want to make it clear that Toast is the person I feel is scummiest, and I would normally vote for him. However, I agree with CM that the wagon has grown too fast, and I don't want my random vote on his wagon.
First bolded section: omg are you serious? Yeah, you never said that, but as soon as it is brought up and people start claiming (as quickly as they did) it OBVIOUSLY going to be frowned upon when someone objects. I agree with Nai that if this was D2 or D3 then yeah, we have a right to get upset if someone refuses to claim, but right now I would think lots of people have reasons to object.
Second bolded section: Scum fishing is rubbish? You sir, are contradicting yourself. You tell them you want a good reason, and then tell them one of the BEST reasons is actually bad. That is EXACTLY the only reason I didn't want to claim. The scum will do more with this information early on than the town will, especially when it feels like the scum brought this sourceclaim up.
Sucking up to Nai, and then hammering all of his posts is noted
There are several reasons Nai could be getting upset about the softclaim here, and EACH ONE warrants this kind of a post. His post was not defensive at all, each of his posts so far have gone on the attack, or summed up the entire situation as a whole. I think you're reaching here.
1.) It really does give the scum ideas of power roles, I can think of one or two in particular it would clue them in on. Also, the second bolded part is gaming the mod which brings me to...
2.) You say he admits to gaming the mod, and yet you use the gaming the mod reasoning of "not neccessarily main characters" in your 1st argument. You can't really say something is bad if you're doing it yourself.
3.) I completely agree there has been discussion, but who is it benefitting? The way I see it, you're obvscum (we'll get to that in a second) and RafK and CM aren't far behind. Now, if all of you are scum then great, you made this game easy for us. But if any of you are town, then all this discussion has pointed US in the wrong direction while the scum have gained info from it AND gotten mislynches.
4.) You can't see why a claim of any kind going through too quickly is a bad thing? I call BS. It is obviously bad for it go through without discussion (which I noted early on), because if there had been more time to discuss, people like AE, Nai, and even myself would've had time to talk about why it could be BAD as well as GOOD.
Already explained how the discussion argument doesn't really work, and WAY back I explained that the soft lock thing is BS too. There are probably more mangas than Kithkin creature cards, and when a source claim was suggested in Kithkin mafia the reason was: Too many outs for the scum. That is the case here too. About the power roles? You are beginning to sound like you are fishing for WHICH ones they are, which is just another point against you.
He never said he wanted to discount it, he brought it up and said "feel free to discount it". Man you are REALLY reaching here, and are sounding more desperate with every word.
Save the mudslinging for the politicians. I could JUST as easily say "YOU are being narrow-minded about the negatives". Nice little smear attack, which is also noted
More indignation, and about the statement at the end: Of course you weren't, only the worst scum players would do that. It IS what happened however.
What....was the overall tone you got from the post? Why should someone have to give upsides if they feel there are none? If more than one person feels there are downsides to the town, why should you feel that your feelings and beliefs on it should outweigh theirs?
Wow. One of the "obvscum" posts I was talking about earlier. You start off by backing off, and seeming like the victim. "Big bad mean Nai was beating up on me and I didn't like it!" You think HIS style is condescending? You've played with kpaca before, be thankful HE isn't the one questioning right now, or you would've soggied your toasties...Also, more name calling, you are sounding like VERY frustrated scum here.
More indignation and annoyance. Not indication of towniness at all.
I don't think he was misrepping you at all, and yet there is MORE sarcasm and indignation here, you're really not liking this guy are you?
Agreement, you have to at least TRY to make it sound like you're not just really pissed off cuz Nai caught you so quickly...
I agree with Nai's ideas too, does that make me scummy? I complied with your precious softclaim even when secretly I didn't really want to. More indignation towards Nai here, baseless attacks..etc.
BOOM! You know what that was? That was you exploding into a thousand little scum pieces. Nai believes that the person CM is scum and he brought up the source claim. You quickly agreed with it, and tried to get it rolling fairly quickly (and as you say above, you find nothing wrong with it going so quickly....) So in Nai's POV, that is easily two scumbuddies trying to help each other with the plan.
Yup, that is exactly how it is going to go down. You were pretty convinced he was scum earlier, and my God throughout this last post you sound like you want to KILL him. But honestly, buddying up to your attacker is like way at the beginning of Scum 101, on like the first day, first lesson. The tone of your voice and attitude towards Nai does NOT match your sentiments here, in the SLIGHTEST. Obvscum point #2.
Obvscum point #3. "I just said you are acting very townie, but I still don't like you so I still find you scummy". This is simply so if a wagon picks up on Nai you can say "Hey there, I didn't like him either, I'm a good lil' townie!"
And now for the final act in Toastboy: The Tragedy. "Hey guys, ignore everything Nai just said, I want to finish finding out your information!!!! Yay!!!" C'mon, please dude. This isn't even hard anymore....
FoS: ToastBoy with intention to vote once everyone agrees his wagon isn't growing too quickly.
And none of that is necessarily worth a damn. A false claim, no matter how obscure or easy to make, will be busted by a namecop/mangacop/whatever. A real claim runs the risk of someone having knowledge that a character from X is scum. This is the rock and the hard place the scum must guess between.
Plus sometimes people forget the details of their own false claims and trip themselves later on.
Plus sometimes people make up such ridiculously bad false claims (see: Erestor in LOTR, or cpe's false claim in RotTK) or get terribly unlucky (such as me inventing the falseclaim of the ADHD Kid in High School Mafia only to discover one of the other players actually had the role of the ADD Kid....).
So you're saying we had something better to post about during this time? There's no deadline, nothing to waste, and as you said we have managed to do some scumhunting even while the claim is in progress. And people are giving reactions right left and centre. It's much better than spending the first few pages in random fluff, which is usually what happens.
I disagree. I don't see the point in wasting time. This kind of thing is either day 1 round 1 before the scum have their boots on, or else it's a late game thing for process of elimination.
If you could give me any kind of example of a scum plan with strategic places to claim which could be screwedup by a townie jumping in...
You want to find a scum thing in this post, but as I said, it's actually one of the most definitely town posts in the game so far. I would put this down as a big town tell, unless he's subtle enough and quick enough to think to fake annoyance in that situation (and that's so subtle that maybe no-one would pick up on it, so I would say not).
None at all. It happened to be the only problem I had with the way that list came out, and the only thing making me consider briefly (not out loud, I think) doing a new list. In hindsight I might have been better off insisting AE went early, but them's the breaks and at that point he'd only made one post which slightly tweaked my radar.
On with the claim btw, hope Oni and Callaway show up at some point.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Perhaps because he's your scumbuddy?
I'd think it highly unlikely a standard game this size is without a town vig.
Also, there's not much point in a cop trying to investigate CM. He'll either get a scum result from CM being a town miller, or a scum result because he's scum. Based on his source, the town miller claim might be correct, but considering his actions thus far in the game, if I were in the position of being able to vig someone, CM would be a valid target right now.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
That was a hilariously scummy way of declining to false claim.
Also, for those of you (Oni and AE) who don't want to claim your source, and are citing the reason "because it doesn't help town narrow down scum", why have you not answered the question of "but how does it HURT the town"? And because its already been said that there are hundreds of characters in numerous manga to choose from, you can't say that a source will will out town power roles.
Indeed. His post seems also to lay a backdoor escape route. What do I mean? If we force him to claim, his claim will sound scummy. To explain this apparent scuminess, he will claim he is the redeemed version of his character.
Vote Onikuma
12-11? I'm losing track
What kind of reasoning is that? The point is to lock the scum into a claim of a specific source. How does that not narrow down the claim options? What if they choose poorly and somebody is able to counter claim? The point is that this in no way is damaging the town, but locks the scum into either false claiming, or sticking with their role. This post also sounds not like a defense but that you have something to hide. Thanks for making this easy.
Unvote
Vote: Oni Kuma
Edit by preview: Very good point Infinis.
Oni just basically said: "Hi, I'm from a manga where my role can easily be identified from the title. Please kill me."
It's unlikely he's mafia, they had a chance to communicate night 0 and possibly set this whole soft-claim business up. That makes him town or independent. The fact he used the term "Anti-Hero" in his post, makes me think independent though.
Unvote, Vote Oni Kuma
This doesn't by any means get Toastboy or CM off the hot seat. Oni just managed to put himself at the front of the queue.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
vote Oni Kuma - hopefully now there is sufficient encouragement to change your mind?
I only want to see a series claim at the moment, all the same. I'd prefer we finish the series claim before getting down to brass tacks.
We've started this, we need to finish it. Claim Oni.
Now as far as it goes the sudden wagon building on me for my refusal to claim is enlightening. I don't want to state my source.
Now the whole anit hero comment. Let's take Vegeta from Dragonball Z.
Saiyan Saga ---> Villain
Freeza Saga ---> starts Vill ends anit hero
Cell Saga---> hero/anit hero
Buu Saga---> starts hero ends majun evil
There you go. Perfect example of an anit hero. And if the point is to limit the scum's chance of a claim by restricting them to a series I don't think this is valid. Simply because you stand a better shot of the scum claiming a major character if they don't know which manga's are truely out there. Now all scum has to do is pick a minor character that noone else could possibly stand a chance of being.
You're at 6 out of 9 by my count.
Anyone else want to see if he changes his tune at 7?
Besides trying to explain your claim in advance, what is the point of this exactly? Anti-hero character exist, no kidding.
There are Lots And Lots Of Characters in a lot of manga. I know. That's why a series claim shouldn't give much away to the scum about the town's roles.
The point is to put scum in a position where they have to decide without much information and without discussing with their friends whether they tell the truth or tell a lie, both of which have risks depending on what secret information and powers townies have. This has been explained.
That worked so well when it was known as the "Erestor" claim in LOTR Mafia
It would also work beautifully to turn any namecop or mangacop or similar role into the equivalent of a full cop, win for us!
Now, claim your series.
Oni Kuma - 5 (Slio9, Wrath_of_DoG, Infinis, ~Tilde~, RafaelK)
Archmage Eternal - 2 (zindabad, Shadow Knight)
Toastboy - 3 (Oni Kuma, Archmage Eternal, Nai)
Nai - 1 (NightArcher)
With 17 alive, it's 9 to lynch.
- Noted.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
So you don't care much about scum fishing? Your not bothered by it?
Did you give discussion a chance?
You "have not been trying to push it through"? News flash, your not trying because you did.
Why was it a good idea? Did you give reasonable time for objections?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Oni Kuma, the thing is, you just got the entire game to jump on you, that was one of the worst things I could think of doing. Your posts drips scummy, (or at least trying to hide something). I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for now, but I may well change it into a vote later.
@Shadow Knight: It has only been 4 days, as you said, some people don't have as much time as others and don't get to check this more than once every 1-2 days.
Ok scum, you are digging yourself an even bigger hole by saying my post was "scummier than Nai's". I hadn't been around for a little while, read your post, found several things wrong with them, and called you out on them. Nai did this, and you called him scummy. I did this, and you called ME scummy. This is newb scum tell #1: Attack the people who attack you! With that said,
Come on town, why did this wagon on Oni Kuma grow exponentially fast? Not wanting to soft claim Day One is NOT a scumtell. It reads more as Newb Town than scum, because newb townies generally want their information kept secret for longer, ESPECIALLY if said newb town has a role that is easily revealed by softclaiming, and said newb town is afraid of dying. I think we have nabbed a scum in Toastboy, and a good candidate to look at D2 in terms of CM, don't lose sight of that yet.
I reiterate, not wanting to softclaim is NOT a scumtell.
@Oni Kuma: I know how you feel, man. Your information is valuable to you, and this thing with your grandmother sucks (my grandmother passed away in the middle of a game, so I'd never accuse anyone of lying about something like that) but unfortunately, you were gone for all of this discussion. The sourceclaim has started, and if you are town you are better off complying than fighting it at this point, as almost everybody has anyways. After reading this, if you STILL feel like withholding your information, please provide better and stronger reasons than your anti-hero argument, k?
A minor note, the wagon on Oni is growing FASTER than the one on Toast, and no one seems to have a problem with it. Which is amusing.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Toast's start is fantastic, and he just keeps sinking. One could almost accuse him of blasting holes into his OWN boat!
No, you never outright said that anyone who objected would be frowned upon. I'm talking mob logic when lead by a ringleader. Like YOU.
This is how things happen (and how things DID happen). Someone suggests something that would involve the entire group participating. Someone else agrees and participates, putting themselves 'at risk' to do so. At this point, there's no risk of objecting. But five more people put themselves 'at risk' for this plan. NOW, if anyone objects they're going to be risking putting themselves on a stage for people to throw tomatoes at.
Why? Because a claim forces people to risk their own necks. As I said before, -this- soft claim is relatively low risk. You don't lose much by saying what series you are from at this point. However, you're STILL risking something. And you'll be very upset if YOU have already risked something for the plan and someone else refuses to do the same. They're not matching your wager, it isn't 'fair', and you want justice.
More? As I have said before, town benefits from more information. Series claim IS information for the town. So when town gives information, they assume anyone who does NOT give the same information must be scum denying info from town. The mob ignores the REASONING behind not giving information, they just see denial. They crowd to lynch anyone giving opposition.
Mob reasoning. For better or worse, when a bandwagon has started, it's a mob. This claim has a bandwagon behind it.
And another win for Toast! He's proving you don't need to -think- to type on a keyboard.
Let's see. Information on a mass scale is requested by a player. Information that could be used by both sides. The total players in the game is usually composed of 1/3rd to 1/4th mafia. And... You somehow think there's no chance that this was started by mafia.
Do you play this game normally, or is this your first time? Just PROBABILITY says that it could be mafia. And given how fast this took off, I see a high chance of mafia on board, if not starting and running the whole thing.
Putting forth your claim, as previously stated, is WHAT stopped the discussion. People saw the claim was going, and discussion ended. Why? Because, to most, there's no point discussing a claim that's already started. It's going, there's no real way to stop it, so people stop discussing.
What TOWN would do was wait until the majority of people are in agreement before the first claim, in order to let discussion go. But, as previously stated: 6 out of 17 people outright agreed with this claim.
And I'll say this again later, but: Just because no one, at that point, OUTRIGHT said they disagreed with the claim doesn't mean that everyone agrees. If there are people you haven't convinced either way, you need to work harder and NOT assume you have enough people on your side to continue.
I'm tempted to agree with Grey and say this comes off as ass kissing. But considering the amount of time and effort I put into that, and knowing that it was GOOD, I'll just take it as a compliment.
I love how you casually handwave the difference in statements bit by posting a quick sentence and including it with another part.
A 'change of heart' is equal a 'change of position'. You were thinking one thing, then you were thinking another. A 'change of tone' is a different way of saying things, NOT a different position altogether. So they are in no way equal. One was accusing him of doing a heel-face-turn, the other is saying that he has a way with words. BIG difference.
And you really don't get this whole 'majority' thing. There are 17 players in this game. 1 player puts forth a proposition. 6 people post after him, 4 saying they agree, 2 saying they have no opinion. Another player comes in and assumes the proposition succeeded and puts it into action.
See the problem? Just because 4 of 6 people said they agree, that doesn't mean that an equivalent amount of people out of the remaining 10 are going to agree too. There's a reason we wait for a MAJORITY when it comes to lynching someone. We don't wait a day, say that 10 people posted, 7 agree to lynch, and we lynch. No, we wait for ALL 17 people to post, we wait for 9 people to agree, THEN we lynch. One is NOT equal to another.
You were rushing it, and there's no way to say you weren't. You DID NOT WAIT, so you rushed it. End of story.
See also mob logic above.
Furthermore, have you ever actually listened to a prosecutor in a courtroom? Does he just SAY what happened and leave it at that? Nope! He has to prove MOTIVE too. And since we can't read minds, he has to ASSUME a motive and put it into words. Same thing I'm doing here.
Save that I'm also using knowledge of mob reasoning. Either you wanted it to happen to begin with, or it was just a happy accident, but it happened. Anyone that disagreed with the claim you supported had suspicion thrown on them.
... Let me get this straight. You're saying that I was defensive WHILE attacking? But... I was not being preemptively defensive against attacks on me FOR the attack...
Let me try this again. WHY do I sound defensive? If I'm not defending against a CURRENT attack, and not defending against a FUTURE attack... How can I be defensive, exactly? You're not making ANY sense. You're also throwing accusations at me that have NO backing, as I've said before.
This was me showing how stupid the 'defensive' comment is. I either have to be defending against a current attack (by your words, there was none), or putting verbal defenses against a FUTURE attack. You know, like I did with the 'gaming the mod' comment. I KNEW someone would attack me for 'gaming the mod', so I said outright that I KNEW I was gaming the mod. I had already said it, showing I was already aware of what I was doing, in order to stop someone to say I was trying to confuse people BY gaming the mod.
In other words, I was preemptively defending against EXACTLY what you did.
There's a difference between what is in the MANGA and what is in the GAME. We have MULTIPLE players and MULTIPLE manga. Because we can't put EVERY character into the game, the mod has to restrict himself to only one or two characters per manga. It is not that farfetched to assume the majority, if not ALL of them, are THE main character from the manga, or his secondary sidekick.
YES, this is gaming the mod. This is trying to work out the way the mod thought while making up this game. However, this is also the OBVIOUS way the moderator would work. It's the SIMPLEST explanation using the information we have at the moment. I will continue to work off of this assumption until more information is provided.
Here's the reason, and it's a good one too:
There are more manga than there are players in this game. We don't know what the criteria for choosing manga were, so we can't judge what is a false claim in this soft claim and what's a real one.
We can ASSUME that the moderator of this game chose well known manga in order to minimize the research needed by the common player, making the game more logic/arguments (you know, more MAFIA) and less of a research paper.
Now, this is what's known as GAMING THE MOD. As I explained earlier, GAMING THE MOD refers to trying to get into the moderator's head and figure out how they set up the game.
Why doesn't it work? Because there's no way to know HOW the moderator set up the game. They could have thought ahead, knew a player (like myself) would wonder how the game was set up, and use ONLY obscure manga in order to stop an argument like mine and to make it easier on the mafia.
And, knowing a player would think THAT way, they could have put ONLY obvious manga in order to confuse the town more.
The more astute reader will notice this is devolving into a WIFOM argument, which is EXACTLY why gaming the mod is normally frowned upon.
HOWEVER. My argument isn't ANY less valid because I'm gaming the mod. Which is why I submitted it to the town. It's a valid argument: We don't know what was chosen for this mafia game, so we can't really use the information we're being given. It's something for the town to think about as they get this information; how useful is it, really, and is it worth the town saying where they're from?
At the end of it, I admitted that it was gaming the mod. Why? Several reasons. FIRST, it was a preemptive defense against someone like YOU, who would shout 'its gaming the mod!' in order to discredit the argument. SECOND, I'm letting you and everyone else know that, since I'm AWARE that its gaming the mod, YOU can assume that I've gone over the argument, thought about how it was gaming the mod, AND THEN submitted it anyways. BECAUSE I submitted it, you can now assume I thought it was important enough to let you know, EVEN THOUGH it was gaming the mod. THIRD, it was not only defense, it was a trap. I was waiting for someone to discredit it due to gaming the mod, waiting to see who wouldn't think about it enough to come to the conclusion that it was a valid point. Bad players wouldn't think about it much, and would discredit it for gaming the mod. And MAFIA would discredit it, knowing its a valid point, but wanting to convince other players that it wasn't.
THAT is why I put that in there. It's STILL a valid point, and so far, no one has made a good, or particularly successful, argument against it.
I'm going to say this again later, when you ask the same question again. No, I wont' be doing any copying or pasting, I'll actually rewrite this out to make sure its understood. I'm also going to bold/underline it both times so it's very obvious. There will also be capitalization.
THE FACT THAT DISCUSSION IS OCCURRING AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE CLAIM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE CLAIM GAVE US INFORMATION. THE INFORMATION FROM THE CLAIM IS NOT AT ALL CONNECTED OR RELATED TO THE INFORMATION GLEANED FROM THE DISCUSSION OF THE CLAIM ITSELF.
Bonus translation of that in a longer form for those playing from home:
We have TWO sets of information here.
Set A - Information gained from the soft claim itself. This information includes: the name of the series each player is from.
Set B - Information gained from the discussion of the claim. This information includes: who is in favor of the claim; who is not in favor of the claim; the opinion of people from group A on group B; opinions on the series claims; opinions on the validity of the series claims; opinions on the people who made the series claims; etc.
Now, who in the audience can spot a shared member of both sets? That is, a member of set A that is also in set B, or vice versa? Anyone? Anyone?
That's RIGHT. There IS NO SHARED MEMBER.
What does this mean? This means that the soft claim, in and of itself, is ONLY responsible for the names of the series. It is NOT responsible for ANY OTHER INFORMATION.
The fact that we got all that other information from it has NOTHING to do with the claim itself. It's from the DISCUSSION of the claim, and the DISCUSSION of the DISCUSSION of the claim. That's IT.
Now, what does THAT mean? Several things. ONE. The CLAIM ITSELF has given us ALMOST NO INFORMATION.
Two - I'm confident in saying that neither YOU, Toast, nor Charm_Master, intended for all this discussion based on the CLAIM ITSELF. If you intended any discussion at all, it was probably on the CLAIMS GIVEN.
For any that don't understand, do ask questions, I'll be happy to explain.
Mmk. I'll give you an example:
Player A claims to be a vig with unlimited day and night shots, who can also shoot unlimited times per day or night cycle.
Player B proposes that Player A shoots everyone in the game, in alphabetical order. He thinks that this will help them get rid of scum.
Players C, D, and E all agree with the plan. Players F, G, and H have no real opinion at the time of their posting. Players I through M haven't posted yet.
Player A, seeing three people agreeing, decides to enact the plan and starts shooting people.
This is an (extreme) example of a plan that went through way too quickly.
Now, why is a plan going too quickly a bad thing? Because there may be downsides to the plan no one has said yet. Because a player may be able to give all the information given from the plan (for instance, in that example, a cop that has investigated half the players and knows who is innocent already) without a chance of the downsides. It may be that only a small minority agree with the plan and that by enacting it too quickly, you're going against the wishes of the majority. Because the plan may be made by SCUM, and by enacting it, you're helping them win the game. Discussion may be able to reveal this fact and help the town.
There is no time, in this game, where discussion hurts the town. Including extended discussion that takes several days. YOU may get bored of it, but YOUR opinion on the fact that this is boring, and YOUR entertainment from the game at this point, has NO relevance to the rest of the players. If you're bored, wait, or ask for a replacement. The fact that you are bored should NEVER come before the safety of the town and the chance the town will win.
In addition to all this, discussion reveals MORE information for the town. Opinions can be used for or against players later on. Knowing who was against a successful plan can help find mafia. Knowing who was against an unsuccessful plan can help clear town. Cops can breadcrumb their results, or their identities, in discussion. So can other players. Players like me, who do a lot of behavioral and linguistic analysis, get 'assault/attack fodder' out of the arguments and are able to make better cases against scummy players.
ALL THOSE REASONS are why pushing a plan through too fast is a bad thing. Luckily there are players like me in this game, who are still willing to push through a discussion even after the plan is going. Otherwise, we'd lose all this evidence we're accruing for, and against, every player that participates.
As I explained before: The discussion excuse is ********.
The soft lock, while useful later on in the game, isn't helping us now. It won't help us until someone claims. And while it WILL help us later, I have no doubt, it was eschewing discussion while the mafia were making notes on everyone.
And look, here you are trying to sneak another attack through:
Where did I discredit the power roles thing? I STILL think the mafia can get power role information. If I discredit it, do actually show it.
First of all: I already explained in this post why I posted the gaming the mod section. You can go back and read that.
Second of all, 'inciting suspicion' is such a wonderful phrase. It's equal to 'fearmongering' while being not as inflammatory towards the person you direct it at.
It's also scummy as hell. Why? Because it puts the action in a bad light. Why is this bad? Because if I've found mafia, I can't get it LYNCHED without inciting suspicion. If I can't convince other players to at least LOOK CLOSER at the player in question, I can't get them to vote for him. And if I can't get that to happen, the scum win automatically. If players can't get other players to lynch other players, the game stalls. Oh, and did you forget that if the town doesn't win, the mafia does?
Moreover, how am I distancing myself from the anti-claim movement? I said, outright, at the VERY beginning of that post, I disliked how fast the claim was moving. I also outright said that I thought the claim wasn't helping us at all right then. I gave my opinion, directly and succinctly. There was NO distancing whatsoever. I put myself SQUARELY in the anti-claim corner.
A statement like that is flinging mud, hoping people will see me as scummy without actually, you know, going back and reading the post in question. And that's a scum tactic.
This I rank right with the 'fearmongering' comment.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are narrowminded. When someone thinks the negatives outweigh the positives, that does NOT mean that they haven't actually looked at the positives.
This is a logical fallacy known as the 'ad hominem'. It's an attempt to discredit the PERSON giving the argument, instead of the argument itself. Saying the person is narrowminded as to the positives is saying that they haven't adequately looked at the positives, therefore their argument is bunk.
Did I forget to mention that the ad hominem is a scum tactic?
Proof enough for you?
You gave weak defenses for the claim. I've already debunked those, save the last one, which is a decent, but STILL weak defense.
THEN, you say that 'most are up for it', when only 6/17 were actually up for it. This was overstating the actual agreement for the proposition in order to influence the decisions of others. Humans are surprisingly herd-like creatures. If we see many people doing a specific action, we tend to do it too. That's why the 'If your friends were going to jump off a bridge, would you do it too?' sarcastic question from your mother is so famous and so often used.
THEN you outright claim, starting the claim. Before there was even a majority agreement, much less total agreement. Before anyone had a chance to object. Before the downsides had been stated. You started it.
You forced it through. You kept the claim on its tracks before anyone even had a chance to TRY to derail it. In other words: YOU RAILROADED THE CLAIM.
Please, stop making yourself look bad by denying it.
Excerpt from the post in question. And, bolded, there's the ONE upside I could see. Yes, ONE. A tiny one. Yes, I gave the upsides. Did you notice how tiny it was, as compared to all the downsides I gave? I thought you did.
I love how you're misrepresenting me here.
Oh, and I love the way you put this. "I felt that they were stressing too much emphasis on 'this isn't good for the town'." It would be a bad 'This isn't good for the town' post if it didn't actually stress that fact.
Not quick on the uptake are you, Captain Obvious?
No, really? Accusing me of poor attacks, giving no actual evidence of said poor attacks, and then making a poor attack of your own? A scum tell? I never would have thought!
This is another scum tactic. Admitting what they said was a scummy statement in order to reduce the impact of the actual statement itself. Before you ask, YES, this is different from my 'gaming the mod' statement. In your case, someone pointed out it was scummy BEFORE you admitted it, showing that you didn't think of it at all. Thus it becomes a tell. There's also the fact that gaming the mod is usually considered a logical fallacy (like a WIFOM argument), not necessarily scummy.
And this is my 'getting my points through' voice. When outright fact doesn't work, I start getting condescending. I'm making the SAME points I did originally. But originally they didn't get through. But now, when I make them condescendingly, you grudgingly admit they're true. So... Apparently the tone works, and I'm not going to fix something that's not broken.
Besides. It makes me giggle. And I gather other people are amused by it too.
Ayup. The written confession that you said you DID respond while you actually DIDN'T, thus lying to the town, is very satisfactory.
In other words, you gave a blanket answer to all my questions instead of answering each one individually. The blanket answer ANSWERS them all, but it also omits facts that could incriminate you.
And way to prove my point!
Yes, you gave your opinion. But you gave it in a general way that doesn't describe the thinking behind it. Town likes information, and we LIKE to know how you came to your conclusions.
"Very defensive position." Well... HOW was it defensive? Oh, right, you don't TELL us. So we have no idea how your thought process went. So we actually can't use this at ALL, since we can't tell if it was valid or not.
"Imply its dangerous while revealing nothing." He implied this? REALLY?! That could be scummy! Where did he imply it, and how isn't it dangerous? Oh... You didn't actually tell us that. So... We can't use THIS either.
"Add some gaming the mod" Where?
"And some serial caution" What does this mean, where did he do it, and why is it bad?
See my point? No thinking behind it makes it useless to the town, while you get to say you actually gave your opinion.
Oh, speaking of general opinions: Town likes SPECIFIC opinions. Why? Because GENERAL opinions can be applied to anything. They provide no content. While simultaneously being able to be used in both SCUM and TOWN arguments. You can fence-sit while giving general opinions. How?
"Very defensive position." He's scum! He's being extremely defensive here! Kill him! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. Look how defensive he is when backed into a wall.
"Imply its dangerous while revealing nothing." He's scum! He's putting messages under the radar to derail my plan while not outright saying them! And he's lying too! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. He's just confused and not making much sense.
"Add some gaming the mod". He's scum! He's trying to confuse us with WIFOM argument! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. See how he's trying to think like the mod in order to help us find lying scum?
"And some serial caution." He's scum! He's trying to put us into analysis paralysis! He's just going to stop us from doing anything! ALTERNATIVELY, He's definitely town. He's trying to help us avoid making bad decisions.
See, your GENERAL opinions can be used either way. But when you give SPECIFIC opinions with actual back-up, they not only can't be confused for alternate meaning, we can actually USE them later. Which, of course, is what SCUM are afraid of.
And by missing it, you were able to paint me in a bad light. Which, if I was a player that wasn't good at defending myself and didn't give much info to town, would be bad for me.
What a bad argument. I'll dissect.
First sentence? I never said he's not allowed to have his own opinion. Moreover, the problem was with his outright barning. He used Raf's threat against AE as an excuse to vote him. He didn't give any reasoning of his own for the vote, didn't add anything. Just bandwagoned onto AE. That's why he's a bad player.
Then you outright say AE is scummy, like its a fact. You don't give reasons WHY he's scummy. You just say it, because the next part of the sentence makes no sense otherwise.
Because, yes, apparently agreeing with me means you're town. Yes, this makes perfect sense. If you agree with me, there's no way you're scum. ... Right? Again, this sentence makes no sense.
And then your final sentence is attacking ME again. Saying that I think people are not allowed to think differently. Which is used to discredit my arguments, because it implies they're only there because you think differently than me.
Did I mention this section SCREAMS scum-tell?
And this is another scum-tactic: Deliberately misreading and/or misinterpretting a statement to make it sound stupid.
Before I start, I should let you know: The sarcastic-*******-voice ONLY works on the offensive. When used defensively, it makes it sound as if you have NO OTHER DEFENSE than to be sarcastic. Unless you already GAVE a defense. Then it works like the voice on the offensive.
Now, yes, you agreed first. The fact that you agreed first wouldn't be a problem if I thought you were town. But since I think you're scum, I'm talking about TIMING.
That is, it sounds like you're scum who planned this out, but you timed it badly. You jumped on the wagon too soon. You revealed yourself. It's like one scum attacking a player and another scum attacking just afterwards, adding one vote right after the other. When the player turns up town, the town looks at who voted when to make connections. Two scum jumping on one after the other are easy to find.
And yes, this is a wagon. Not because you thought it was a good idea. Because a lot of people are supporting it. It's a wagon, just like 7/9 people voting one player is a wagon. Not because any one player is supporting it, but because there are a ton of people on it.
WRONG! It happened. You just didn't do it. Someone else did it for you. Reading = tech.
I already showed where and how it was railroading.
As for the random phase, I don't like it either. So I don't participate. I take that time to establish myself in the game, and read other players contributions. And I don't jump onto stupid plans.
Because, as I stated earlier (here comes that rephrase you were waiting for, folks!):
THE DISCUSSION THAT YOU ARE SO FOCUSED ON IS A DISCUSSION BASED ON THE CLAIM ITSELF, NOT ON THE RESULTS OF THE CLAIM.
This also answers your next question, but I'll do it again anyways.
It's NOT the same reason.
Claim: Generates discussion based on what people claim.
Nai-being-an-overzealous-bastard: Generates discussion based on what he says.
YOU are defending the claim based on the discussion of the CLAIM, not the results. I'm defending my overzealous attacks based on the discussion OF my attacks, not the discussion of me attacking. Yes, the people discussing how overzealous I am does help, but my attacks help because of the discussion about WHAT I said, not the fact that I AM SAYING it. See the difference?
It's the difference between discussing how well and how far a car drives vs. discussing the car itself.
After all that, I have a judgement to make.
FACE HEEL TURN!
For those who aren't tropers among us: This is when a person says one thing, then turns around and does something completely different! Like when Mini-Me goes and joins Austin Powers. He turns his back, spinning on his heel, on the evil side and joins the good.
In this case, we have Toast here saying that he finds me scummy, yet UNVOTES me. He'd usually only unvote me if he actually thinks I'm town.
The best part is, this is a reverse OMGUS. Toast has noticed how his attack on me is gaining no ground whatsoever. Knowing he's failed his attack, he's trying to fix his mistake by 'making up' with me.
I love this. Remember when Toast attacked me for voting Charm? The REASON he voted me? Now he's saying he doesn't really think Charm is town!
And here's the tampering the list thing again. Charm was the one who brought it up. No one accused him of it. And Toast is wording this like he doesn't like that charm DID tamper the list. If he was talking about Charm bringing up the possibility, he would have specified. Interesting, no?
Best part of all! Even through all of this, he's STILL railroading the claim. Even with the opposition, he's still trying to get people to claim their roles.
A TOWNIE, especially a good one, would see the opposition, see the points made, and HOLD UP THE CLAIM in order to see if its actually worth it.
This, in and of itself, says nothing about why you thought I thought you had messed with the list.
I took it as Raf finding AE scummy, so he would have asked you to bump AE up the list so AE would have had to claim earlier.
No, I don't think he thinks you edited the list to put him last, nor do I think he would have a reason to.
This is a more legit reason, but I have no idea why you directed it at ME and not Raf.
Why not? Take this as a direct request for you to respond to my accusations against him.
OKAY! Time to respond to more long-ass posts. How long has this gotten so far? I'm hoping to break the 16 pages I had for the PBPA earlier.
I'm pretty sure he isn't scumhunting here. It seemed more like an OMGUS at a person attacking a scumbuddy. He isn't going after anyone else, he's defending himself with very little attack on me. Seems like a scum who stuck his neck out and now has to deal with the consequences.
I actually had my thoughts. It was to post my thoughts, in relation to the actual posts in question, at everyone else so everyone can not only see what my thoughts are, but also see me point out things that don't add up, or seem overtly scummy.
In other words, it wasn't a list of thoughts. It was a PBPA. Big difference.
... I have no idea what the majority of this means, but it sounds like you're defending the fence-sitting. Since I don't understand the defense, please explain it better.
How vague.
I never said he DID push the claim to hide his claim of miller. I said that his claim of miller was in a rather convenient place. He's claiming something that could be done by scum and, at the same time, claiming miller at the same time. I think he's scum. If I was a cop, I'd be investigating him. But with his claim of miller, I can't be sure if a guilty result (if I got one) would be accurate.
So, it's a convenient place to claim.
Why? We can always come back to it later. If someone seems to be massively scum, doesn't it benefit the town MORE to investigate? We get more information out of a lynch and the discussion given than we do out of a source-claim.
Cheers, someone knows where I"m going from.
Why does it seem to be 'growing too fast'? You agree that he's seeming the scummiest... Are you not interested in seeing him hang? I agree that it should go a little slower so we can get more information, but you didn't say that.
Also, why did you call your vote 'random'? Are you saying it would just be a bandwagon vote rather than a real one?
Okay, Grey basically sums up a lot of what I've already said. So I'm only quoting some points where I want to add/clarify something.
Nice to see someone thought I wasn't being defensive. However, I do want to point out I'm not UPSET about the soft claim. It's a natural thing to want to do. I'm irritated at the TIMING, and how fast it took off.
Damn good point, actually. However, he was, I thought, basing that off of someone else saying they were not a main character.
Disagree about the soft lock being BS. Sure, there's plenty of options for them to choose from. But they have to STICK with that option. And like Raf said (I'll be commenting on this when I get to his post), any role/flavor/etc. cop can catch them on it easily.
The soft lock is true. But the information helping us NOW is false.
I must say, I admit I'm using my *******-voice. Though he DOES seem like he's running off like a little kid. The frustration is a good point, however.
Something I've noticed, you're speaking for me an awful lot. Please don't do that. Let me speak for myself, thanks.
Finally, on to Raf. I've been wanting to respond to this since I first read it. Hope I don't forget anything.
Now, a few things. You're assuming there's a name-cop or manga-cop, which is something I find far-fetched. I can see a regular cop or a role-cop. But someone who gets flavor? That's kinda a rare role. And yes, while it CAN happen, I don't think its a high enough possibility to use it for support for an argument like this.
And with all the mangas we have, there's little to no chance of a counterclaim on them, at least on flavor. ROLE, yes, but this claim is on FLAVOR and SOURCE, not on Role.
True. This doesn't make the information useful NOW, though.
Then? Nope. Now? Hell yes.
I also thought the same when I said my initial post against this claim. We had plenty of reactions to the claim to go off of then. And I thought we were unnecessarily revealing information to the scum that we weren't getting much off of.
We don't need to continue the claim at this point in time. Too many people have already done it. We have plenty to scumhunt with now, there's no NEED to continue the claim. IF we lynch Toast/Me/whoever, we can continue the claim tomorrow. If we finish the debates and discussion without a lynch, we can start the claim again.
I repeat: There is no need to continue this claim at this current time.
The ONE event where we would need to continue from here is if we're risking someone full-claiming who hasn't claimed a source yet. And Toast already claimed Yu Yu Hakusho, however you spell it.
In a normal claim, yes. If we're claiming anything that isn't so GENERAL and USELESS to the town, it's either really fast off the bat or it's later on to trap people. However, this isn't going to screw up the mafia that much. They simply have to choose a manga and stick with it. They were going to have to do the same thing later on anyways, we're not tripping them up.
Oh, and it would probably be useless late-game, as most would have already claimed.
If this was a claim for, say, NAMES, it would be different.
Sure! How about this?
There's a finite number of official English-translated manga. Some of them are famous enough that people who aren't fans of manga will have heard of them. There are some that are rather obscure to anyone who isn't a fan.
Now, if their own roles don't tell them, scum won't know if we have popular manga or unpopular manga. Well known or unknown. And if they're going to fit in, they HAVE to know. They also may assume that popular manga have power roles.
So, if they go early, they can establish themselves as a popular manga, and therefore a power role. If they go late, they know what type of manga are being claimed and they can claim accordingly to fit in. They also will have a better chance of not overlapping a claim if they go late.
Likely, one scum would go early in order to establish a power claim and see if they can get someone worried if they're from the same manga. Two from Hellsing? Could be a problem. Then the rest can scatter, probably towards later on in the claim so they can fit the rest of the themes shown.
Now, if someone messed up the strategy? A townie jumping in earlier and being the second on to claim that power-source? Or a townie jumping in and claiming exactly what a scum was going to claim JUST before the scum was to claim? That'd put a crimp in the strategy right there, now wouldn't it?
You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying about the post. He could be annoyed for many reasons, and he could just be faking it.
What I find scummy is the fact that he doesn't chastise NA for jumping out of place in a list that's made to keep scum off-balance. The list is THERE to force scum to act like we want them to, and anyone not following the rule is acting like scum. No, he chastises NA because he didn't want anyone giving their source randomly. Why is randomly such a big factor? Random is only a problem if you have planned something that requires non-random factors.
THAT is why I think its scummy. Not the irritation, faked or not. The REASON STATED for the irritation.
If you're going to respond to this, respond to THAT. I'm suspicious because of his REASON for being irritated, not for BEING irritated. The fact that you're focusing on the one I'm NOT talking about is suspicious.
This makes no sense.
You think I'm scummy. You have yet to provide the name of someone you think is scummier. So why back down on me? If you think I'm scummy, you should go after me. Build a case. Try to get me lynched. Especially if there's no on else. There's very little reason at this juncture for you to back away if you have no other person, or thing, you need to work on.
And the only other THING you have to do is railroad the claim (like you did at the end of your previous post), and you're already getting flack for that.
I already stated how the discussion thing is craplogic.
Also, if no one else wants to be associated with the claim because its taking you down, and if you KNOW its getting you in trouble... Why are you continuing it?
So, in your opinion, the people attacking AE have bad reasons for attacking him? Or AE has bad reasons for refusing to cooperate? Be more specific.
How do you KNOW it isn't specific enough? I can think of quite a few main characters who have obvious roles attached to them. I wish I could give examples at this point, but due to the radio silence about it, I have to wait.
Detailed and large do not equal good, and they do not equal good enough to suck up. If my post was good enough to compliment, it probably should not have had so many points for you to assault.
I'll note that you didn't actually say HOW its defensive in any way. After Stormblind in Inheritance, I'm close to discounting all gut feelings that have no data-based back-up.
You really like accusing people of gaming the mod.
And you're taking for granted, based on ONE person's statement, that there are minor roles in this game.
I do, however, disagree with him on 3.
And your number 4 has nothing to do with his number 4, and you completely ignore what he says afterwards. Not a good way to be town.
There are good points here, especially with me bringing up power roles before you did. I forget who brought it up first, I don't THINK it was me. I think AE brought up power roles first.
I explained this already.
Ah! Here's one.
I accused him of bringing up the list too fast after he asked for objections. To me, doing this means he wants to see it through.
YOU want to see it through too, almost as badly. So this is absolute craplogic. You BOTH want to see it through. But because he made the list, I was initially more suspicious of him.
Do explain how it was suspicious that I accused him of something you BOTH are guilty of.
Did, actually. I put forth the ONE upside I saw to the claim. Reading = tech.
You're really big on this 'putting sentiments on you' thing. Even though its something we HAVE to do in order to prove you are scum. Scum and Town can do the exact same things in certain cases. However, both have different motivations to do so. Unless we put sentiment onto you, there is no difference between the two. Sentiment is what makes an action damning.
And yes, I'm highly condescending. As I said, there's a reason for it, and its not going to stop.
You ARE attacking a lot without giving actual reasons or evidence towards it.
And it was I who agreed with AE, if we're talking straight up timing of posts. I think we both found things scummy simultaneously, and he just wrote his thoughts out faster than me. I prefer long and detailed posts, as everyone knows.
More about sentiments. I jumped on you for using 'discussion' so much as a defense. Now I'm jumping on you for sentiment. I explained in this post why sentiment is required in an attack. I fully expect you to stop defending yourself with it afterwards.
Funny, with some of your responses to said big post, you seemed to find me scummier than ever.
The claim should wait, not the scumhunt. The claim waiting doesn't hurt us. Not hunting for scum does.
If they're not dead when we pick up the claim again, they're not off the hook.
It may be that he didn't think you were scum until NOW. I know this is defending him a little, but I find this attack baseless. I have had many occasions where I find someone initially townie, but the more they defend themselves, the more I think they're scum.
You may be right. I may be a little too focused on the 'assumption of role' after reading RafK's assumption on a cop able to use this information.
You have a point. There's not much we can do about him other than just lynch him to see his alignment. However, I know of a better target. Can you read my mind?
Hey! Look! I've reached page 4!
I don't mind you not claiming. I mind your reasoning for it. The manga you claim isn't going to give us information on your role, anti-hero or not. So it's not going to hurt you. And your entire anti-hero argument is complete craplogic.
I want to see more for you, especially more reasoning. I'm tempted to change my vote to you, but I'm half-thinking you're just a townie with bad reasoning.
Scummy, yes. Proof of scum? No.
My question exactly.
There are some things that don't hurt the town but don't help the town. Now, the question is, which is more important? If it doesn't help the town, is it still a valid action even if it doesn't hurt us?
Someone claims vanilla townie. The role-cop investigates him. He finds that the person is a vanilla.
Does this help the town? Nope. The role-cop would be best used on someone else. Does it hurt the town? Nope, we have a confirmed vanilla.
Your argument isn't quite valid.
You have a very good point. I'd like more information from him.
As I've said before, it locks the scum into claim options. But with so many options to choose from, the lock isn't going to hurt them that much at this time. Later on, when we learn powers and who gets what role, THEN they may be hurt. And later on, when we learn the basic criteria for manga chosen, THEN it may hurt them. For now, they lose nothing by false claiming. They can even true-claim their manga and STILL lose nothing.
This one, I don't get. Can you explain your reasoning.
Quite possible. Is it likely there's a survivor or other independent role here?
I'm glad you haven't lost sight of Toast.
And I'm glad YOU are just interested in the series claim. A lot of people seem interested in blood here.
I'd be happy with a soft claim. Why do you feel he's suspicious enough for a full claim?
You're basically claiming anti-hero at this point. Which is hurting you more than the series claim would have.
I would advise you claim. Not because of the mass claim, but because of how many votes you have now.
Less triviality of a potential runaway lynch would be nice.
Quite a nice point. I put that earlier in my post.
Ayup. This is true. I still maintain it doesn't help us much right now, though.
Your continued assumption that there's a cop that can use this information is noted.
Restating a lot of thoughts I had in this post. Thanks, AE.
Yes, you really should have. You put that on in the random vote phase.
I'm SURE he's trying to hide something, but I'm not sure it's scum. I'm amused by all the people jumping on his butt.
And given his excuse, I'm willing to grant him leniency on his timing. I've taken longer to make a post for much less important reasons. I hope that type of thing doesn't come up in this game.
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Being a dick is not the same as acting scummy. And I really don't think that was even that much of a dick move. Real life issues are issues outside of the game. While he may be having problems in real life (granted, that is a serious one), they don't excuse what he says in the game. For real life issues you get time, not room for err.
Other than I think you're wrong about Toastboy and I'm glad you agree that Oni needs to talk, and I think there's seriously no reason whatsoever to stop the claim in the middle- after I've claimed, Toastboy's claimed, etc, but before you or AE has claimed a series? Come on Nai, really, there's NOT enough to go on, the point is defeated to stop now- there's not much to say.
You're going around in circles as to why you oppose the claim. You're repeatng yourself a LOT, and most of the things you are repeating (like your belief that that post of Charm Master's was scummy) I disagree with, have explained why I disagree with, and you aren't adding anything new to it (which is not a surprise because there has been so little new material since your last big post).
I am not reading you as scum at the moment, just town... with an enormous stick up your backside. At least one of those barning in on your points is a different story- Greymon did nothing but barn you, slather Toastboy in sarcasm, and act like he had the best case since sliced bread.
It's the traditional way to make people talk who don't want to talk.
Possibly. The eagerness to explain away his upcoming claim before he makes it IS a scum tell, albeit one I can also see from a newbie town with a suspicious role. But it can't just be handwaved.
The Toastboy wagon is bad; the CM wagon is terrible. Nai insists that a scum would be annoyed if a townie claimed earlier than he was listed to do, depite not actually explaining why the heck a scum would ever be annoyed with that. What's your reasons for thinking CM is a good candidate, Grey?
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I'd like to point out that had I not blitz-killed Azrael day 1 in "Hats Mafia" (and derailed the mass-claim in the process), the scum would likely have been able to coast to an easy win. Yes, it was paranoid luck on my part, but I won't complain about it.
As for my comments on Oni's refuse-to-claim post?
1) The premise that only 1 or 2 main characters from each manga are in this game occured to me. That's why I found Infinis' and RafaelK's same source claim so interesting.
2) Oni basically refused to claim because (in my opinon) he figured that his role would be immediately identifiable as a power role, just from the title.
In effect, if he's town, he just painted a huge target on himself tonight, hence the "kill me now" statement.
His "Anti-Hero" bit doesn't help him in that regard though, as it implies that he isn't a "nice guy". If this is a mafia-initated mass-claim, he wouldn't have any objections if he were mafia. The only way I can see him as objecting like that, and still be scum, is if he were independent. SK is both an independent role and a power role. And it's fairly common...
And Death Note characters have been showing up in mafia games a lot lately. (yes, it's unfounded metagaming, but meta'ing the Mod does work sometimes)
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Not really (but I did miss that you'd tried, my apologies).
There is no distinction here, at all. Jumping in randomly IS jumping in out of place, and you still haven't explained why a scum would be annoyed at a townie jumping in early (which, for your theory to work, is what must have happened there).
My argument here is that CM gave a non-townie reason for being annoyed. That he didn't want him to jump in randomly. Which is NOT the same as saying that a person that doesn't follow the list made to catch scum is not acting in the town's best interest. I'm saying he's not acting like TOWN.
YOU keep changing the argument to 'why would scum be irritated at town not following the plan'. Scum wants to act like town. Town would be annoyed at it. So scum acts annoyed. Or, perhaps, really IS annoyed that the plan isn't going right. I don't know. The point is, it seems scummy to me.
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Explained above (and has been explained prior to this) as to why it is a problem.
CM expressed exactly that sort of annoyance.
I can't even think of why a scum would be lannoyed in that situation AT ALL, and you haven't given a single reason either, other than you think his annoyance is "not town". Why is it not town? Because you apparently think being against jumping in randomly is not town. And you are wrong.
You wanting to stop the claims before your own turn comes up is an actually scummy thing to do, and yet you seem to have no problem with it. Seriously, pull the stick out. And learn to edit yourself into a readable format.
And what format would you like? I have the base font and base size and base color. I don't know another format you would prefer.
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I explained about 3 times already why it was a very townie reason to be annoyed. I am very much discussing what you are discussing. I am not dtrawmanning diddly squat.
After I explained why it was a townie reason, I added that I could not see why you were saying it was a non-townie reason, and finished with
Which you have still failed to rebut at all, this time by flat out failing to reply to it.
I also like that you failed to answer at all as to why you think it's okay for the claim to stop now, before you claim, and that that's not scummy at all.
A more succinct one that gets to the point a little faster. I am scared of what will happen when you have more than 40 posts at a time to do a PBPA on. It might crash the server.
And I like doing my long and drawn out one. It makes sure people know EXACTLY what I'm trying to say. People often try to misinterpret what I'm saying, and I'm trying to avoid that.
I actually just forgot to reply to your question about the claim stop. I had it in mind, but then I got irritated by your strawmanning.
First of all, as I've said MANY times, we can pick up the claim again later.
Second of all, my wanting to stop the claim has nothing to do with my place in it.
Third, I see no reason for me to claim when I did not agree to this mass claim. I see the entire claim as invalid, due to lack of AT LEAST majority agreement on the part of the town.
Fourth, I'm pretty convinced at least two people who started it are mafia, and I see no reason to give the mafia what they want.
I'm not on trial here, Raf, and I see no reason to give away role information for mafia to use when I do not see it helping the town at all. Especially at a time when there are other people to focus on. Like Toast. Who, I can't help but notice, you never really comment on. Other than to say the wagon is bad without giving any actual reasoning for it.
Moreover, if I actually DID give a claim, and STILL was trying to stop the claim, you'd treat me like Grey was being treated. Called a hypocrite for claiming and then going and saying he was against the claim. You're trying to put me in a catch 22 here.
That said, I'd probably source-claim if the majority of the town asked for it, since that'd mean the majority thought it would help the town.
Now, as for the argument at hand:
CM didn't say ANYTHING about NA helping scum. He didn't say anything about what YOU are saying, that townies moving up means scum move down (note that you're assuming NA is town here, which is interesting). He didn't say anything about the fact that its scummy that someone would ignore the list like that. He didn't lecture NA on WHY being random is weird.
THAT is what I find scummy, which is something you either seem to ignore, omit, or misunderstand. It's the content, or lack thereof, in the chastisement. It doesn't fit my mental image of town in this situation. His 'lecture' to NA was simply 'the list is so people don't go in random order'. It didn't say ANYTHING about how the list was there to catch scum, or how going random like that could hurt chances of trapping scum. Why? If he's GOING to lecture NA, why not give him a REASON going random is bad for town?
Simplest two answers for me:
1.) He's town that doesn't know why we use a list, so didn't know what to say to NA, and was irritated that NA didn't follow directions.
2.) He's scum, the order in his list was screwed up by someone not following directions, and he didn't have a legit reason to chastise him.
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For what it's worth, I haven't raised an objection to the wagon because I haven't been on to do so. WTF guys?
However, looking at his recent posts here and elsewhere on site, his claim of "I haven't had time to post" is really...flimsy. he's had 14 posts on the site in 3 days, which is a lot IMO for someone who is having trouble with posting. His refusal to claim for such a bad reason also reeks.
Oni needs to claim. Vote Oni, but only for that purpose. I intend to unvote barring a ridiculous claim.
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I'm saying that I doubt he's scumhunting. Reread my post.
OK, so you collected your thoughts into a PBPA. I was saying you look town to me for doing so.
OK, I'm not sure what's up here, but you seem to have trouble understanding me period.
I am simply saying that despite any fence-sitting attitudes that you have read into my post saying "have at", I was for the mass claim and I feel that it should be evident in my post.
Glad you can see that I was being vague.
First, my thoughts on CM had nothing to do with your post, I just didn't make it clear in my post. It was not a response to anything you've said.
Second, all millers are supposed to claim Day 1.
I can only see harm in doing a 3/4 mass claim at this point. Since it's started, we should finish it.
We should also continue to discuss other items in the game as well, such as what you've been saying.
OK... so why do you feel like I'm attacking you in some fashion?
I grew only slightly faster than Oni Kuma's wagon, which I'm also not pleased with.
There was plenty Toast still had to respond to before I was ready to vote for him.
So we were on the same page the whole time, I just didn't explicitly say the words you wanted to hear.
My vote was on Toast from the random phase still.
Hopefully this clears some thing up for you. I still need to fully catch up with the thread.
I'm not understanding how a vote for a player you feel is scum should be moved to an a player you fell is independant.
we got what we needed, barring a counter claim I feel we can go on before reviewing it.
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Callaway is next but has yet to post in the game - Mod: is there a replacement lined up?
And for about the 5th or 6th time now, that second one makes no sense whatsoever.
WTF does a scum care if someone doesn't follow the list? That's the thing you don't and can't answer.
Au contraire, if townies jump in and claim before the scum does, all the better for the scum.
Therefore, for the 5th or 6th time now, the only explanations to me for CM caring are that he's town, or he's scum faking the caring. And it seems too subtle a thing for him to think to fake, hence I think he's town.
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Consider this. If you have the opportunity to lynch a mafioso or a SK Day 1, which do you choose? You choose the SK, as that eliminates all the SK's nightkill attempts for the rest of the game. Lynching a mafioso Day 1 doesn't stop all the mafia's NK's for the rest of the game. Occasionally the SK serves as a second vig, but more often than not his continued presence is to the town's detriment.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
@Tilde: That makes sense.