Nice try. You directly called jordman incompetent. I want to know why. Please answer the question.
Honestly, mostly for the aforementioned situation in Pirate-Ninja Mafia. That was a ridiculous way for scum to get himself lynched. His spelling and grammar have improved since then, somewhat. He seems to be naive and easily directed by other players. What's worse, judging by his avatar and signature, he seems to take pride in all of this. Again, I mean no offense. I'm not trying to rip the guy to pieces or anything. I was going to drop it, but you asked.
It's hard for me to see any of the people spilling information like this as scum, at least at the moment. If only because its so early and scum usually don't like to expose themselves so quickly. If any of them are scum, then it's almost certainly some kind of pre-planned gambit, and those kind of things are just rare. I don't think fake-claiming Cop would be part of any such gambit regardless. So jordman is pretty much out.
Cyan/Exsam is a possibility, but that seems like such a bizarre corner case that I can't take it very seriously.
Cyan alone running an extreme gambit is also a possibilty. But really, if I was a scum with conditional unlynchability as long as a certain townie was alive, I doubt very much I would be claiming my unlynchability right out of the gate. I mean, maybe the whole purpose was to identify who the townie was who is protecting him so the scum can avoid killing him, but I just don't think so.
I do dislike a lot of the "flavor" of what Cyan is claiming. Echo as "unlynchable" represented by having a new personality imprinted on her doesn't make a lot of sense - I mean, we lynch bodies, not personalitles. And the logic of her being a miller - because she could "pick up" a variety of bodies - is similarly weak. She's always the same body, just with different personalities, and no logical reason why she should show as "not town" just because of that. Unless, like, the imprinted personality was EVIL.
But, that's claim specualtion, and I really have no idea what Alpha would or would not do, and how he might justify it. If I'm strictly looking at behavior, Cyan hasn't acted in a manner that seem all that scummy yet.
@jordman: you say you got "not town" on Cyan as opposed to "scum." Do you think you will get "scum" if you ping a mafia? Or are all your results going to come as "Town" and "Not town?" Your post almost makes it sound like you thought you might get "scum."
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
in all brutal honesty r-o is calling me out as incompetent because, to a point , I still am. I'm trying to get better but this whole mafia thing is still fairly new to me. working on it.
FWIW, I'm terribly confused and concerned about cyan, but I firmly beleive that having a vig take him out tonight is the only logical play. the claim is weak and just doesn't seem to hold water to me...but since we can't lynch him, I'm wondering...perhaps a cult-like thing?
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I do dislike a lot of the "flavor" of what Cyan is claiming. Echo as "unlynchable" represented by having a new personality imprinted on her doesn't make a lot of sense - I mean, we lynch bodies, not personalitles. And the logic of her being a miller - because she could "pick up" a variety of bodies - is similarly weak. She's always the same body, just with different personalities, and no logical reason why she should show as "not town" just because of that. Unless, like, the imprinted personality was EVIL.
Body snatcher tech?(This would be evil of course).
Also a total random thing while I believe jordman's claim Paul Ballard had some major revelations in the last couple of episodes. I don't want to ruin it if you haven't seen it.
FWIW, I'm terribly confused and concerned about cyan, but I firmly beleive that having a vig take him out tonight is the only logical play.
If Cyan is being honest about his role, we can vig him, but we'd kill a townie.
If Cyan is lying about being town, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume he might be lying about other parts of his role; namely, what if he can't be killed at all while his enabler is alive? Is a wasted vig shot something worth risking here, especially if we have a limited vig?
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
If Cyan is being honest about his role, we can vig him, but we'd kill a townie.
If Cyan is lying about being town, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume he might be lying about other parts of his role; namely, what if he can't be killed at all while his enabler is alive? Is a wasted vig shot something worth risking here, especially if we have a limited vig?
An unkillable scum would be ☺☺☺☺ty, but an extremely good thing to know early.
First off, 4 pages worth of posts is blech to read.
Second, aye.
Third, Cyan's flavor explanation of his unlynchability makes little sense since Echo doesn't actually lose her imprints. A key point of the show is that she retains all the personalities put into her and has managed to make herself an uber-personality that's an amalgamation of all the skills and characteristics of every personality she has been imprinted with. To sum it up: Echo can't be wiped.
At the risk of being accused of too much meta-gaming (What? Who? Me?) I'm going to use the example of I-DF Mafia here.
A soft "universe" claim was one of the first things that was proposed and implemented in that game. It did nothing. We (the scum) knew right from the start that it was going to do nothing. It was far too broad to actually limit us in any significant way. We all safely claimed our "Universes" with little to fear, and it actually hurt the town because one townie had a bizarre posting restriction that prevented him from soft-claiming. I think the chances of it actively hurting the town here are probably minimal, baring certain types of "searching" roles, but the chances of it actually helping us catch scum are basically zero. It's too broad. It is difficult to imagine why anyone would have to lie, and it doesn't particularly "limit" the scum later.
Now, what would have caused us problems in that game, would have been straight-up "Name" claims (not "ability" claims, just "name" claims). Because some of us (not ALL of us), had ship names that seemed like really bad ideas to claim. So those of us in that situation would have been forced to lie. Forcing the scum to lie blatantly right out in the open is never a bad thing in this game. In fact, it's what you want.
But the thing is, we don't know enough about this set up to say if the situation is similar here or not. I mean some people might know. For example, if you are "The Master," but you are also Town in this game, then you know that role-names do not necessarily reflect alignment. So the Mafia could be all bad people, or they could be a mix of good/bad.
Now, Paul Ballard as town Cop + Topher as town vanilla (pseudo vanilla if Cyan is to be believed) + Echo as a "Miller" role suggests - mind you, it just suggests - that there's some relationship between character role and alignment. We don't have enough names to say that with any degree of certainty, but there's nothing there that disproves it either. They all allegedly work in a way that's at least somewhat consistent with their names (problems I have with Cyan's flavor aside). If that's the case, then the scum could potentially be pinched by a "name" claim.
However, even if they are all bad (or a mix) they could also have been provided with "safe-claims," (which is something we did not have in I-DF Mafia). With safe claims, then they could defeat a "name" claim as easily as a "universe" claim.
Basically, (1) a "Universe" claim isn't going to do anything - in my humble opinion. (2) a "Name" claim might do something, but also might not. (3) It might not because (a) the Scum have "good" names (even here it might do something with respect to some of the scum - this was the case in I-DF), or (b) because the Town have "Bad" names (and this is something the scum presumably do not know yet, and might be very interested to find out), or (c) because the scum have been provided with safe claims.
What important point am I making? I'm not making a point. I'm just laying out what I think are the real issues. And this post is too long. Sorry.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Axelrod - That is an excellent point, I would more prefer a name claim now that you bring that up(not that my opinion carries much weight since I already claimed).
It also has fairly minimal chance(I believe) of revealing any town power roles since most characters in the Whedonverse have some sort of talent that makes them exceptional.
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I would be up for a nameclaim. The cop's already out (in theory), and that's usually the biggest deterrent to a nameclaim. The chances of a nameclaim breaking the game are significantly higher than a show claim or whatever.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Might as well put a giant flashing red light over the target's head. You're asking jordman to choose who scum will NK next; the only reason to do this is to reduce jordman's role to nil.
Might as well put a giant flashing red light over the target's head. You're asking jordman to choose who scum will NK next; the only reason to do this is to reduce jordman's role to nil.
'Twas a rhetorical question. I wasn't actually asking him if he knew something but rather just trying to point out that he's quite certain about jordman's status. Only way he knows for certain someone's status is if he's scum or mason.
I would be up for a nameclaim. The cop's already out (in theory), and that's usually the biggest deterrent to a nameclaim. The chances of a nameclaim breaking the game are significantly higher than a show claim or whatever.
Do you mean Universe claim?
so far we have 11 ayes, 3 nays, and 1 idk. I would like 2 more ayes (to have a majority) before proceeding.
I thought it might be a good idea to give him some direction. I suppose i see that if the mafia kill the target, that would make him less useful. I didn't really see that at first.
I vouch for jordman because i have played several games with him in the forum games room, and he's acting very...typically. Essentially, (and no offence to jordman) he's just not the kind of guy who would make a gambit claim like that.
I'll just point out that it is entirely possible to give him some direction without specifically asking who he's going to investigate. That's just a bit fishy.
In case it wasn't clear, a specific nameclaim, not a universe claim. I'm leaning towards agreeing with those who are suggesting a universe claim would not be terribly useful, amusingly (because I actually think several are scum). However, I don't think the conclusion is to not softclaim at all, I think we should do an actual nameclaim. The biggest damage a nameclaim could cause, outing the cop, has already occured, and there's quite a few games which a nameclaim would honestly break. Since the potential damage has already been mitigated, I say we go for it.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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I just redid my math, and realized that half of 22 is 11, not 12. Since the current vote count is 11 ayes, 3 nays, and 2 idks, the most the nays can get will be nine, so there is a majority for the ayes.
Also, for the record: i'm impartial to universe claim, but am against name claim as i do indeed think it will give the mafia information on the power roles. There does seem to be correlation between role flavour, abilities, and role names, at least thus far.
I would disagree, I was expecting Topher to be some crazy power role.
I oppose a name claim at this time. I refer to Axelrod's prior post in which he outlined a number of different possibilities for how the flavor of the game might be configured to emphasize the fact that we don't yet know the general schema that breaks down townies and scum. The mafia, on the other hand, should already have a pretty good idea from having seen their entire group's worth of roles.
A name claim could potentially put them in a bind, yes, particularly if the flavor of the game is simply good characters versus evil characters. However, if the dichotomy were anything as obvious as that, there would be an equally good chance that the mafia would have been given false claims. Mods nowadays tend to work meticulously to prevent mass name-claims from giving the town a large advantage.
I don't buy the line of argument that says there's little risk to the town in doing this, either. I'll fully admit to knowing relatively little about the universes of Joss Whedon's shows, but I was under the impression there were plenty of comparatively normal people alongside the all the supervillains and mad scientists and vampires and whatnot. I don't think there will be many characters for whom there will be a very obvious, explicit connection between name and role, but it seems highly likely to me that many of the characters, by virtue of their identities, will be significantly more likely to be power roles than others.
Given the preceding two points, I will not support a name claim unless and until someone makes a convincing argument as to why it will adversely affect the mafia to a greater extent than it will the town.
1) The ambiguity of several roles has already been raised - many buffy/angel 'good' characters had a stint as the big bad. We could easily end up barking up the wrong tree.
2) We don't know what the flavour (if any - see Axelrods 118) of the scum is yet: a name claim could be far more valuable later when we have knocked a few baddies over, but it may not help us now (may - scum could be really obvious)
3) Having already heard that Paul Ballard is the cop I am wary of the roles being very obvious. Ballard was an FBI agent - an obvious choice for cop thematically. If the roles are that obviously dispersed, name claim will really work to scum advantage. Simon Tam = Doc, River Tam/Faith = Vig and so on
I view a name claim as almost a hard claim. I'd rather see a universe claim first. As I've already stated, at the very least it forces scum to commit to a universe. It may do more (my post 128)... if we feel it does nothing we can talk about something more afterward. I would rather take the slow approach on claims.
One positive for universe claiming first is that it prevents scum from waiting until they hear everyone else claim before they have a go. They have to commit to something that they will later have to stick with.
Also I think we should make a distinction now as to whether we are going to 'universe' claim or 'show' claim - a show claim may be more revealing but would cause some confusion between Buffy/Angel characters.
I personally would rather universe to begin with and then expand to show if necessary, and then name claim today only if we have nothing better to do.
Those two statements seem to be oxymoronic. Could you expand on it a bit?
Sorry, I worded that poorly. I see risk, I do not see enough reward to warrant the risk. Whereas with universe claim, there is no risk with a fair amount of reward.
Buffy/Angel is a shared universe but there are several characters that are unique to a single show. Several also made guest appearances on the other show, and a few switched shows completely Angel, Cordelia, Wesley and Spike).
I strongly agree with all of this.
smoke_Killah
Honestly, mostly for the aforementioned situation in Pirate-Ninja Mafia. That was a ridiculous way for scum to get himself lynched. His spelling and grammar have improved since then, somewhat. He seems to be naive and easily directed by other players. What's worse, judging by his avatar and signature, he seems to take pride in all of this. Again, I mean no offense. I'm not trying to rip the guy to pieces or anything. I was going to drop it, but you asked.
smoke_Killah
Cyan/Exsam is a possibility, but that seems like such a bizarre corner case that I can't take it very seriously.
Cyan alone running an extreme gambit is also a possibilty. But really, if I was a scum with conditional unlynchability as long as a certain townie was alive, I doubt very much I would be claiming my unlynchability right out of the gate. I mean, maybe the whole purpose was to identify who the townie was who is protecting him so the scum can avoid killing him, but I just don't think so.
I do dislike a lot of the "flavor" of what Cyan is claiming. Echo as "unlynchable" represented by having a new personality imprinted on her doesn't make a lot of sense - I mean, we lynch bodies, not personalitles. And the logic of her being a miller - because she could "pick up" a variety of bodies - is similarly weak. She's always the same body, just with different personalities, and no logical reason why she should show as "not town" just because of that. Unless, like, the imprinted personality was EVIL.
But, that's claim specualtion, and I really have no idea what Alpha would or would not do, and how he might justify it. If I'm strictly looking at behavior, Cyan hasn't acted in a manner that seem all that scummy yet.
@jordman: you say you got "not town" on Cyan as opposed to "scum." Do you think you will get "scum" if you ping a mafia? Or are all your results going to come as "Town" and "Not town?" Your post almost makes it sound like you thought you might get "scum."
If you are not sure what form your results are going to come in you can ask the mod. for clarification.
Moving on, soft claim plzkthx!
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This.
Also, enough on Jordman/cyan/exasm.
All in favor of a universe softclaim say aye.
aye.
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As I said I have no problem with it.
aye.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
aye
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FWIW, I'm terribly confused and concerned about cyan, but I firmly beleive that having a vig take him out tonight is the only logical play. the claim is weak and just doesn't seem to hold water to me...but since we can't lynch him, I'm wondering...perhaps a cult-like thing?
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Body snatcher tech?(This would be evil of course).
Also a total random thing while I believe jordman's claim Paul Ballard had some major revelations in the last couple of episodes. I don't want to ruin it if you haven't seen it.
If Cyan is being honest about his role, we can vig him, but we'd kill a townie.
If Cyan is lying about being town, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume he might be lying about other parts of his role; namely, what if he can't be killed at all while his enabler is alive? Is a wasted vig shot something worth risking here, especially if we have a limited vig?
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An unkillable scum would be ☺☺☺☺ty, but an extremely good thing to know early.
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Second, aye.
Third, Cyan's flavor explanation of his unlynchability makes little sense since Echo doesn't actually lose her imprints. A key point of the show is that she retains all the personalities put into her and has managed to make herself an uber-personality that's an amalgamation of all the skills and characteristics of every personality she has been imprinted with. To sum it up: Echo can't be wiped.
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
A soft "universe" claim was one of the first things that was proposed and implemented in that game. It did nothing. We (the scum) knew right from the start that it was going to do nothing. It was far too broad to actually limit us in any significant way. We all safely claimed our "Universes" with little to fear, and it actually hurt the town because one townie had a bizarre posting restriction that prevented him from soft-claiming. I think the chances of it actively hurting the town here are probably minimal, baring certain types of "searching" roles, but the chances of it actually helping us catch scum are basically zero. It's too broad. It is difficult to imagine why anyone would have to lie, and it doesn't particularly "limit" the scum later.
Now, what would have caused us problems in that game, would have been straight-up "Name" claims (not "ability" claims, just "name" claims). Because some of us (not ALL of us), had ship names that seemed like really bad ideas to claim. So those of us in that situation would have been forced to lie. Forcing the scum to lie blatantly right out in the open is never a bad thing in this game. In fact, it's what you want.
But the thing is, we don't know enough about this set up to say if the situation is similar here or not. I mean some people might know. For example, if you are "The Master," but you are also Town in this game, then you know that role-names do not necessarily reflect alignment. So the Mafia could be all bad people, or they could be a mix of good/bad.
Now, Paul Ballard as town Cop + Topher as town vanilla (pseudo vanilla if Cyan is to be believed) + Echo as a "Miller" role suggests - mind you, it just suggests - that there's some relationship between character role and alignment. We don't have enough names to say that with any degree of certainty, but there's nothing there that disproves it either. They all allegedly work in a way that's at least somewhat consistent with their names (problems I have with Cyan's flavor aside). If that's the case, then the scum could potentially be pinched by a "name" claim.
However, even if they are all bad (or a mix) they could also have been provided with "safe-claims," (which is something we did not have in I-DF Mafia). With safe claims, then they could defeat a "name" claim as easily as a "universe" claim.
Basically, (1) a "Universe" claim isn't going to do anything - in my humble opinion. (2) a "Name" claim might do something, but also might not. (3) It might not because (a) the Scum have "good" names (even here it might do something with respect to some of the scum - this was the case in I-DF), or (b) because the Town have "Bad" names (and this is something the scum presumably do not know yet, and might be very interested to find out), or (c) because the scum have been provided with safe claims.
What important point am I making? I'm not making a point. I'm just laying out what I think are the real issues. And this post is too long. Sorry.
It also has fairly minimal chance(I believe) of revealing any town power roles since most characters in the Whedonverse have some sort of talent that makes them exceptional.
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Jordman please do not answer that question.
Since others seem to be vouching that Jordman's play is consistent with previous games I'll go ahead and unvote but IGMEOY at Jordman.
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Why ask this?
I would be up for a nameclaim. The cop's already out (in theory), and that's usually the biggest deterrent to a nameclaim. The chances of a nameclaim breaking the game are significantly higher than a show claim or whatever.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Do you know something we don't?
Might as well put a giant flashing red light over the target's head. You're asking jordman to choose who scum will NK next; the only reason to do this is to reduce jordman's role to nil.
Vote: Madmanquail.
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Let's do this correctly.
Unvote. Vote: Madmanquail.
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
A)Nice fishing.
B)Nice opportunism.
Vote Nis
'Twas a rhetorical question. I wasn't actually asking him if he knew something but rather just trying to point out that he's quite certain about jordman's status. Only way he knows for certain someone's status is if he's scum or mason.
Indeed. There's absolutely no reason to vote for someone who suggests the cop should just nullify himself.
Thank you, sir. May I have another?
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
Do you mean Universe claim?
so far we have 11 ayes, 3 nays, and 1 idk. I would like 2 more ayes (to have a majority) before proceeding.
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I'll just point out that it is entirely possible to give him some direction without specifically asking who he's going to investigate. That's just a bit fishy.
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MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Nis is on the clock.
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
smoke_Killah
I, too, would rather go ahead and do a name claim since the cop's already out. I agree (at least I think) it would help town more.
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Axel's last couple speculation posts look much better, and I pretty much agree with it all. So I'll say nah, and I think the name claim is better.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
I would disagree, I was expecting Topher to be some crazy power role.
A name claim could potentially put them in a bind, yes, particularly if the flavor of the game is simply good characters versus evil characters. However, if the dichotomy were anything as obvious as that, there would be an equally good chance that the mafia would have been given false claims. Mods nowadays tend to work meticulously to prevent mass name-claims from giving the town a large advantage.
I don't buy the line of argument that says there's little risk to the town in doing this, either. I'll fully admit to knowing relatively little about the universes of Joss Whedon's shows, but I was under the impression there were plenty of comparatively normal people alongside the all the supervillains and mad scientists and vampires and whatnot. I don't think there will be many characters for whom there will be a very obvious, explicit connection between name and role, but it seems highly likely to me that many of the characters, by virtue of their identities, will be significantly more likely to be power roles than others.
Given the preceding two points, I will not support a name claim unless and until someone makes a convincing argument as to why it will adversely affect the mafia to a greater extent than it will the town.
Well if I'm right Topher is a pseudo power role in that it enables another role.
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1) The ambiguity of several roles has already been raised - many buffy/angel 'good' characters had a stint as the big bad. We could easily end up barking up the wrong tree.
2) We don't know what the flavour (if any - see Axelrods 118) of the scum is yet: a name claim could be far more valuable later when we have knocked a few baddies over, but it may not help us now (may - scum could be really obvious)
3) Having already heard that Paul Ballard is the cop I am wary of the roles being very obvious. Ballard was an FBI agent - an obvious choice for cop thematically. If the roles are that obviously dispersed, name claim will really work to scum advantage. Simon Tam = Doc, River Tam/Faith = Vig and so on
I view a name claim as almost a hard claim. I'd rather see a universe claim first. As I've already stated, at the very least it forces scum to commit to a universe. It may do more (my post 128)... if we feel it does nothing we can talk about something more afterward. I would rather take the slow approach on claims.
One positive for universe claiming first is that it prevents scum from waiting until they hear everyone else claim before they have a go. They have to commit to something that they will later have to stick with.
Also I think we should make a distinction now as to whether we are going to 'universe' claim or 'show' claim - a show claim may be more revealing but would cause some confusion between Buffy/Angel characters.
I personally would rather universe to begin with and then expand to show if necessary, and then name claim today only if we have nothing better to do.
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
I know there is a scum somewhere in this name-claim opposition. Just gotta find it.
Those two statements seem to be oxymoronic. Could you expand on it a bit?
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Sorry, I worded that poorly. I see risk, I do not see enough reward to warrant the risk. Whereas with universe claim, there is no risk with a fair amount of reward.
same thing. Buffyverse, angelverse, fireflyverse, dollhouseverse.
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
smoke_Killah
I AM TEH MASTAH O FAIL
ty spiderboys
slow down. We are using a meth od, here.
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.