OK, so lrd says he didn't realise at the time it was a twap and has only realised later- I think that makes sense with his earlier comments, although it also kind of undermines his WIFOM "if I was scum I wouldn't have claimed that" bit.
Fine then, yes I am one of those two.
Now why doesn't everyone else answer the question - if it's so helpful for the town.
This is one of those times I feel like "the town" is being used from someone who doesn't see themselves as part of it.
lrd claims, he's a hobbit or elf, but apparently doesn't see why this matters, and I think that's the crux. If he was a townie hobbit somehow and got the point of why that's a worry....
If I was scum, would I not think about why they wanted me to claim, and so not.
Still hindsight. if you were town, would you not think "hmm, they're going to be a bit suspicious of this?" But you showed no signs you expected it to be treated as suspicious.
I'm convinced that lrd is newb town. All of his actions here are what I would expect out of a newb town, especially one facing down a player like RafK.
The part in the OP that says that that the "Heroes" are like the traditional mafia and the evil people are the town is in the middle of all the other rules for the game. I can definitely understand lrd missing it. I didn't notice that Heroes were mafia in this game until I read my role pm (and even then I had to read it a few times before I understood what was going on). I don't see lrd forgeting that he was supposed to be mafia in this game. That's not the kinda thing you forget (especially if he was talking to his scumbuddies pregame).
OK, got it.
I could see him being neutral though. Maybe the way the neutral pm is worded, it isn't obvious that the town is evil and the mafia is good. He could have seen he was neutral with a townie (good) sounding role name, and when Raf wanted elves/hobbits to claim, he figured it would be a good way to be seen as town.
Interesting theory. There is some logic behind it.
Well, that possibly worked out better than I thought it would. I was hoping for a more clear cut newb-scum detonation (which would have been lame, I admit, but whatever works), but this has turned out pretty well for creating some talking points, at least.
Wait, did you seriously intend to trap people with your original post?
Oh incidentally, to all the newer players: if you've never been in a game with me before, would you mind mentioning which game/s on this site you've played before? It's easier to analyse you if one can go see a past game...
Ok, let me try this again than. My point is that well at least on the bottom of my role pm. It said the disclaimer that the Heroes were the scum. If Lrd was smart he would have read that in his role pm. And would know this(and we all read our role pm). Plus it said it on the first page of the game. He has played games before. This isn't some random noob that we can Blitzkrieg style attack, which is what the players of this forum almost always try to do on D1. For anyone to think this "plan" worked is dumb. I am also pretty for sure that Raf said that as a joke. For anyone to think that, that was a formulated plan........ Like I just can't express how flabbergasted I am to see players think that this "plan" worked. I can't find the words, nor do I want to because I would probably get a warning on how ridiculous this is.
OK... but I think you're going overboard with it. Sure it's unlikely but it's still possible.
Can you show me where I was under pressure. Yes ZDS had asked me to clarify, but it would have been incredibly easy for me to lie.
RafK had started with the request, then ZDS joined in and then I followed suit, all stressing how important it was to claim immediately. You had to make up your mind on the spot what to do when faced with the requests of 3 different players and I'm sure that the fact that you would be revealing yourself slipped your mind.
Also, you say that it would have been incredibly easy to lie but later you say multiple times that you were not aware that it was a trap to catch scum, in which case you would not know that you had to lie.
Apparently, that reason was to catch newb scum.
I thought there was another reason.
Yeah, this contradicts yourself as I mentioned above.
This.
Claim - only name/flavour now - I am Pippin. Basically, the reason I am aligned with the villains (trying to paraphase here) is that I am tired of being constantly ignored and undervalued (such as by Elrond and Gandalf) and I feel the best way foward is defect.
My PM starts off with that scene where Pippin makes a mistake by the well, and Gandalf rounds on him, before going on to describe why I am annoyed etc.
Not particularly inclined to believe this. As others mentioned it seems that this would be neutral at best. Besides, I'm pretty sure you just used all the time you got from stalling to make this up.
Note to self: Don't join games when sick with flu. You tend to suck.
Why bother saying this? (Well I know why, but assigning blame for scummy behaviour that you haven't really acknowledged on a cold doesn't inspire me with confidence).
I guess I'm just terrible at telling jokes.
Maybe. Or your scum. Time will tell.
I'd be OK with people voting against him, but not all at once like we had been doing. At that rate he was going to get lynched before everyone had even checked in.
I seriously think Cyan is scum in this game. Post #27 feels too much like Cyan was testing the waters, something of which I don't expect from him as town. He would usually immediately initiate his offensive with a vote and then go all rage. And then the above post doesn't even feel like he is serious about DV, what with all the polite request and kkthkbye at the end. Feels more like he's doing it because it's expected of him.
I wondered about that. His first two posts made small probing attacks without laying a vote - something that doesn't seem to fit his M.O.
See, the problem that I have with this claim is that although pippen is undervalued and might be annoyed with these characters, he joins the fellowship to continue adventuring for frodo, and I doubt that being pushed around would make him abandon frodo. Pippen just doesnt make sense as evil.
I am pretty sure you should fullclaim at this point.
No you misunderstood my post. I meant that I could think of someone that could be a neutral, maybe or they would be part of the town. I just claimed Bilbo Baggins to see what would happen.
Was the 'possible neutral' that you were referring to not Bilbo?
I really want to know why people would think I would claim right now.... Very curious.
I've already said why: if lrd is scum with you, you would be showing that an evil hobbit exists and cast doubt on lrd being scum.
I NOW understand it was a trap for newb scum. At the time I didn't.
Exactly. At the time you didn't know what was going on and didn't realize that you were outing yourself as scum.
I make that two people asking for a full claim, any more?
Me.
I feel pretty strongly that lrd is scum. He has tried to WIFOM again and again saying that as scum he would have just kept quite, but wouldn't he have kept just at quiet if he was town and realized that hobbits/elves would be associated with mafia? Later he admits that he didn't realize at the time that it was a trap. If he didn't realize it was a trap how would he react differently as scum?
I'm convinced that lrd is newb town. All of his actions here are what I would expect out of a newb town, especially one facing down a player like RafK.
What is he doing that you see as newb town specifically? What would you expect of newb scum in this situation?
And then, beyond that, he flatly admits to what most people are going to read as 'you walked into a trap as scum'.
Maybe you guys were never newb scum, or haven't played with many. I was scum as a newb repeatedly, and have been in games where others were newb scum. What lrd did here is not something that newb scum do.
DV, on the other hand, tried to come out looking like aces by defending lrd and proclaiming to be Bilbo Baggins at the same time, then immediately bailed on it all.
I am fairly familiar with how DV plays as town. In my estimation, this is not it.
Something about that last bit seems painfully familiar.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying you shouldn't assume that there are not ignorant/stupid scum in this game.
RafK's plan was very transparent. Should you have therefore said, "Oh come off it, RafK, you don't think any noob scum will fall for that by claiming elf or hobbit, which would surely name them scum"? Of course not. Because it would've ruined the gambit, and even if it had only a .001% chance of working, that chance (which would benefit the town) would be gone.
Lesson learned. Even obvious traps have a chance of working (apparently).
Also, I think your post reflected your own inside knowledge of the scum team's composition (by virtue of being one of them, that is) and your opinion that they are too experienced to fall for an obvious trick. That's what I found scummy about it.
I understood what you said the first time. As stated, I think anyone who's played in even one game should be aware enough to see through that trap. Also, I imagine that since the town win con is to eliminate those not loyal to Sauron, the scum win con is to outnumber those loyal to Sauron, something which should be in every scum's role PM, in case they were too ignorant to read the OP. Is it scummy to assume that players read? I don't think so.
You should assume that Axelrod was fielding confused questions about the setup, because he more or less says so in the first post, so at least someone (and probably more than one) was at risk of a misunderstanding.
You should assume that some players can be prone to getting railroaded especially before they settle down.
You should assume that people make mistakes from time to time.
If someone were standing behind me IRL with a gun to my head, I would certainly feel pressured and would probably do whatever that person wanted me to do. Pressure in forum Mafia should not scare people into doing something apparently suicidal. My bad for assuming that people think before they post.
Erm, I take back the comment about being nominally intelligent.
I personally see no real way out of this without a full claim at this point, so sooner is probably better than later, so we can get on with finding scum.
AI does sound nervous, and is blaming it on external factors, which I like very little.
"Blame" is an exaggeration. I merely made the comment that being sick is detrimental to my gameplay. Looking back, I can see how my posts might seem scummy, and there's not much I can say about that now other than, "I'll make better posts from now on."
And then, beyond that, he flatly admits to what most people are going to read as 'you walked into a trap as scum'.
Maybe you guys were never newb scum, or haven't played with many. I was scum as a newb repeatedly, and have been in games where others were newb scum. What lrd did here is not something that newb scum do.
DV, on the other hand, tried to come out looking like aces by defending lrd and proclaiming to be Bilbo Baggins at the same time, then immediately bailed on it all.
I am fairly familiar with how DV plays as town. In my estimation, this is not it.
Something about that last bit seems painfully familiar.
Why would DV defend lrd if lrd wasn't scum? Something doesn't add up here.
So..you think I'm scum, but you're voting for the first person I went after?
And you think I'm scum based on the fact that I didn't immediately vote the guy, but instead gave him a chance to explain himself?(Something that he didn't do, but, DV came along and presented a much better target)
Seems like a weak case.
Oh, is it? I don't recall AI was the first person you were going after, but in any case it's entirely independent of whether you're scum. Besides, I'm more interested in responses from you and the others for now, though as far as I can tell, most people (other than Calvin, who is now my friend) are reluctant to touch on the possibility of you being scum with a 20-foot pole.
The way you presented it was not giving RO a chance to explain himself. The way you presented it was trying to gauge other people's responses about the supposed rationality of RO's statement. It was akin to an invitation for other people to attack RO first for said statement he made, people like Zebi who followed up on your statement with an FoS on RO.
You claimed that you're giving RO a chance to explain himself, but he never did. If that is really what you were doing, the first abnormality would be you didn't vote RO first, then only giving a chance for an explanation. The second abnormality would be you not following up on RO after he didn't explain himself, as you claimed he didn't. What happened to the biting and not letting go?
I NOW understand it was a trap for newb scum. At the time I didn't.
I make that two people asking for a full claim, any more?
You did not answer my question. Are you town?
You certainly didn't respond like one. You kept spouting about how impossible for you to be scum, but you acted so leery of revealing your alignment. But why? If you're not scum, you must be town? Why all the reluctance?
I am fairly familiar with how DV plays as town. In my estimation, this is not it.
Really? What games?
@ Calvin No I was never saying that Bilbo was neutral. I was saying that I could think of a possible neutral hobbit. Then I just claimed Bilbo for kicks and giggles. The two are completely separate.
Quote from jerubbaal »
Erm, I take back the comment about being nominally intelligent.
I personally see no real way out of this without a full claim at this point, so sooner is probably better than later, so we can get on with finding scum.
AI does sound nervous, and is blaming it on external factors, which I like very little.
And Cyan's right about DV doing the whole "I'm not that dumb" thing.
So yeah. I like the amount of legitimate wagons we have running at this point. DV's is still the strongest, and lrd probably does need to claim.
I do believe that he is Bilbo Baggins. But what he was trying to do was "Oh crap, I claimed when there was no need and now, I am trying to WIFOM to get myself out of my claim.
I hate doing flavour speculation in most games. It's generally reaaaaaaaally stupid, due to the strong tendency on this site to have somewhat random roles or to intentionally mess with the program, like this thing about whether Pippin would turn to Sauron. No kidding he wouldn't in the source material; it's also the kind of swerve common to a lot of mafia setups. That's generally a wash.
The only time flavour speculation is useful is when a mod is clearly trying to be consistent in terms of providing flavour for game mechanics, pretty much. Conceivably that's the case here, because Axelrod has bent over backwards to say HEROES = SCUM and so it would be a little bastardly for him to make exceptions. Reinforced because the original LOTR Mafia had no such exceptions either (depending on what you think of Frodo being corrupted at the very end). But that's still speculation at this point. I don't think it's much of a reason to support the lrd wagon (good thing there are other reasons eh?), and I'd like to head that kind of thinking off at the pass unless we end up with stronger evidence that the mod's flavour is consistent in this game.
Moreover, if lrd is scum, I believe there is a high probability of there being more scum among the group of people who took his defence. Some of them make more sense as scum defending scum than as town defending unknown. (Asian, Cyan)
Claim time now - I lied earlier.I am a neutral survivor, with shields with a 50% success rate (not one night up, one night down, just 50% chance of working each night)
My real flavour is the same as my original one, just with a bit about how I'm missing the Shire and The Green Dragon etc, and so want to get home, in whatever way possible, and get away from everyone around me - both heroes and villains, but it didn't specifically state which side was which.
The reason I claimed was because I hadn't fully grasped the flavour, and I thought it would help me suck up to the town. Apparently not.
I'm not sure that just relying on a Vig is going to work. Based on my own role info, I suspect that this game may not have a traditional Vig. I'm not really comfortable saying more at this time, but given this, + the fact that lrd is claiming neutral survivor, + the fact that it's Day 1, I think that lrd should be today's lynch.
However, I think that we should proceed a little further, and work out someone that we want to be Vigged(in case I'm wrong about having a vig in regard to my own role). If we have a Vig, he can kill that person instead.
I understand that lynching a neutral survivor, generally speaking, is doing the scum's work for them.
But in circumstances where you may not be able to remove them via traditional means, it has to be considered as a possibility.
I could claim my role. It would help us work out this situation, but the scum having my role information would most likely be detrimental to the town later.
Claim time now - I lied earlier.I am a neutral survivor, with shields with a 50% success rate (not one night up, one night down, just 50% chance of working each night)
My real flavour is the same as my original one, just with a bit about how I'm missing the Shire and The Green Dragon etc, and so want to get home, in whatever way possible, and get away from everyone around me - both heroes and villains, but it didn't specifically state which side was which.
The reason I claimed was because I hadn't fully grasped the flavour, and I thought it would help me suck up to the town. Apparently not.
That seems more likely...
@Dv - you didn't answer me. If you claimed as Bilbo to see reactions, why did you only let 5 people respond before backing down?
That is a good question, and I would like to know the answer too.
I'm not sure that just relying on a Vig is going to work. Based on my own role info, I suspect that this game may not have a traditional Vig. I'm not really comfortable saying more at this time, but given this, + the fact that lrd is claiming neutral survivor, + the fact that it's Day 1, I think that lrd should be today's lynch.
However, I think that we should proceed a little further, and work out someone that we want to be Vigged(in case I'm wrong about having a vig in regard to my own role). If we have a Vig, he can kill that person instead.
Obviously I nominate DV for that honor.
I think I would rather lynch Deaths_Vampire and try to get lrd vigged or lynch him later. I am more worried about scum than an (apparent) neutral. Unvote: lrd; Vote: Deaths_Vampire
I could claim my role. It would help us work out this situation, but the scum having my role information would most likely be detrimental to the town later.
I understand that lynching a neutral survivor, generally speaking, is doing the scum's work for them.
But in circumstances where you may not be able to remove them via traditional means, it has to be considered as a possibility.
I could claim my role. It would help us work out this situation, but the scum having my role information would most likely be detrimental to the town later.
Wouldn't it make more sense to find a solid lynch candidate and then see what happens to our neutral survivor overnight?
I don't like the cost vs. benefit here. If we assume that DV believed lrd to be town and DV is scum, DV sticking out his neck by claiming a Hobbit to protect a townie seems suicidal. After all, if DV dies, he can't cash in those townie points.
Oh, is it? I don't recall AI was the first person you were going after, but in any case it's entirely independent of whether you're scum. Besides, I'm more interested in responses from you and the others for now, though as far as I can tell, most people (other than Calvin, who is now my friend) are reluctant to touch on the possibility of you being scum with a 20-foot pole.
The way you presented it was not giving RO a chance to explain himself. The way you presented it was trying to gauge other people's responses about the supposed rationality of RO's statement. It was akin to an invitation for other people to attack RO first for said statement he made, people like Zebi who followed up on your statement with an FoS on RO.
You claimed that you're giving RO a chance to explain himself, but he never did. If that is really what you were doing, the first abnormality would be you didn't vote RO first, then only giving a chance for an explanation. The second abnormality would be you not following up on RO after he didn't explain himself, as you claimed he didn't. What happened to the biting and not letting go?
I don't think Cyan answered any of these questions. He just said, "No, I didn't." "Oh wait, yeah I did."
Uhh...I "lied" when I said that "no one here would fall for RK's obvious trap." Funny that you would twist a colloquial alternative to "my mistake" into "I'm a liar."
Moreover, if lrd is scum, I believe there is a high probability of there being more scum among the group of people who took his defence. Some of them make more sense as scum defending scum than as town defending unknown. (Asian, Cyan)
Did I defend lrd? No. Get your facts straight before using them to accuse people of being scummy.
I hate doing flavour speculation in most games. It's generally reaaaaaaaally stupid, due to the strong tendency on this site to have somewhat random roles or to intentionally mess with the program, like this thing about whether Pippin would turn to Sauron. No kidding he wouldn't in the source material; it's also the kind of swerve common to a lot of mafia setups. That's generally a wash.
The only time flavour speculation is useful is when a mod is clearly trying to be consistent in terms of providing flavour for game mechanics, pretty much. Conceivably that's the case here, because Axelrod has bent over backwards to say HEROES = SCUM and so it would be a little bastardly for him to make exceptions. Reinforced because the original LOTR Mafia had no such exceptions either (depending on what you think of Frodo being corrupted at the very end). But that's still speculation at this point. I don't think it's much of a reason to support the lrd wagon (good thing there are other reasons eh?), and I'd like to head that kind of thinking off at the pass unless we end up with stronger evidence that the mod's flavour is consistent in this game.
I'm not sure that just relying on a Vig is going to work. Based on my own role info, I suspect that this game may not have a traditional Vig. I'm not really comfortable saying more at this time, but given this, + the fact that lrd is claiming neutral survivor, + the fact that it's Day 1, I think that lrd should be today's lynch.
Are you sure it's a good idea to say that at this point? Giving the scum free info seems unwise.
However, I think that we should proceed a little further, and work out someone that we want to be Vigged(in case I'm wrong about having a vig in regard to my own role). If we have a Vig, he can kill that person instead.
Obviously I nominate DV for that honor.
So now we're saying, "If there's a vig out there, please shoot Player X." This doesn't seem like a good idea, either, simply because there might be a role that can take advantage of a publicly premeditated kill.
Wouldn't it make more sense to find a solid lynch candidate and then see what happens to our neutral survivor overnight?
Definintely. lrd's claim is a little fishy because he didn't come forward with it immediately, but lynching him today doesn't seem like a good idea any more. We can always wait and see what happens later.
Why does AI alone feel the need to hammer home the fact he doesn't have a scummy race?
Why did you dig up that post simply to make me look bad? At the time there was demand for people to reveal whether they belonged to those races, so (like you yourself) I shared whether I am of one of those races.
/Obviously my aim is to get to the end of the game alive. I know that if I'm not helpful to the town, I'll be lynched, so I shall be doing my best to survive, by helping the town.
Assuming your claim is valid, you stand a decent chance of making it to the endgame simply because the scum won't want to risk a NK on a 50% success rate.
Why if DV's claim was true would he try to backpedal out of it?
Got it now.
I'm not sure what the point of your first question is in relation to my original post (since that was about lrd), but if the "got it now" encompasses both then that's good, if not then I have no idea, maybe he screwed up and is trying to recover. I think he's telling the truth though, at this point.
Is it scummy to assume that players read? I don't think so.
Are you sure it's a good idea to say that at this point? Giving the scum free info seems unwise.
Hence he said he didn't want to say more; the information was important as we normally just rely on a vig.
So now we're saying, "If there's a vig out there, please shoot Player X." This doesn't seem like a good idea, either, simply because there might be a role that can take advantage of a publicly premeditated kill.
This happens alot. Its not like the vig has to listen to us anyways.
Assuming your claim is valid, you stand a decent chance of making it to the endgame simply because the scum won't want to risk a NK on a 50% success rate.
Scum won't NK him because he's not town. He'll work with whoever is more likely to win; we have no garuntee he's going to play like a townie if he can win by rushlynching someone with scum.
As for lrd, I'm seriously considering Cyan's idea of lynching him today.
I don't like the cost vs. benefit here. If we assume that DV believed lrd to be town and DV is scum, DV sticking out his neck by claiming a Hobbit to protect a townie seems suicidal. After all, if DV dies, he can't cash in those townie points.
Unless the scum kill lrd and he flips town. Then DV looks fantastic.
Quote from AI »
I don't think Cyan answered any of these questions. He just said, "No, I didn't." "Oh wait, yeah I did."
I did, in fact, address this. I still think RO is scum. Along with you(especially after your last post).
I'm a touch surprised that people don't actually seem to know how a neutral survivor works (at least how I've read it). Scum don't kill him, because he's a scum vote when the town is in lylo. Functionally, he's a townie until it actually matters. If we're just amazing and nail scum every single day, it'll never be relevant, which is nice, but we make mistakes, lrd's existence is going to become increasingly dangerous, at which point we're really not going to want to spare the lynch, and if he's not lying about his NK half-immunity, vigging him becomes very dangerous.
The other likelihood is that he's lying about the half immunity, as it both decreases his chances of being lynched (you can still vig him) or vigged (1-shots aren't going to want to waste a shot, if we don't have a recurring vig, he's probably not dead, motivates scum not to kill him). Whether he's crafty enough to be deliberate about such a claim I dunno, but it's rather elegant as far as avoiding death, whether that's design or falseclaim.
And this all is assuming he's actually a neutral survivor, which is one of the most claimed roles as scum ever.
IMHO, at best he's falseclaiming scum (of which I would think that there's a higher than random chance), and at worst he's a potentially dangerous neutral. He should be dead.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
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MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
A little too certain for my taste. If you have reached said conclusion, why would your vote even still be on Lrd? You are certain he's not scum but your vote stays?
Even though I don't think he is mafia, I thought he could be some sort of anti-town neutral, so I still wanted to keep some pressure on him. At the time, I didn't really see anywhere else to put my vote.
Claim time now - I lied earlier.I am a neutral survivor, with shields with a 50% success rate (not one night up, one night down, just 50% chance of working each night)
My real flavour is the same as my original one, just with a bit about how I'm missing the Shire and The Green Dragon etc, and so want to get home, in whatever way possible, and get away from everyone around me - both heroes and villains, but it didn't specifically state which side was which.
The reason I claimed was because I hadn't fully grasped the flavour, and I thought it would help me suck up to the town. Apparently not.
This is more what I was expecting. Pippin makes sense as a neutral survivor, not as a force of evil, and you didn't really seem town when you claimed to be a hobbit/elf.
Two questions though:
1.) Why did you initially claim town? Claiming neutral survivor would have gotten some pressure off of you, since a day 1 lynch of a survivor is typically bad play (depending on the setup I guess). Now it just looks weird with you switching from town to neutral.
2.) What's the flavor of your 50% NK immunity?
I'm a little worried at your reluctance to claim your flavor at first, since Pippin doesn't really indicate a power role or anything really scummy. I'm inclined to believe you for now though.
I'm not sure that just relying on a Vig is going to work. Based on my own role info, I suspect that this game may not have a traditional Vig. I'm not really comfortable saying more at this time, but given this, + the fact that lrd is claiming neutral survivor, + the fact that it's Day 1, I think that lrd should be today's lynch.
However, I think that we should proceed a little further, and work out someone that we want to be Vigged(in case I'm wrong about having a vig in regard to my own role). If we have a Vig, he can kill that person instead.
Obviously I nominate DV for that honor.
This seems kinda contrived for scum to come up with, so I'm inclined to think you're town.
As has already been said, you shouldn't claim now. Even if we don't have a traditional vig, we can figure something out. If there is a vig, I agree that he should probably fire tonight.
~
Asian has been giving me some bad feelings this game, so I'm not opposed to his wagon.
DV I'm going to look at more closely, and lrd raised a good point with DV cutting the gambit so early.
But I'm going with Red 0mega for now. A lot of his posts are more or less saying things that are obviously good for the town, rather than actual insight. It reminds me of how Gigas/KeeperofZion played in Basic 8, where they were both scum. Also this:
Quote from MMoD »
lmfao.
Okay I think I know whats going on.
Quote from R0 »
When I saw this, I realized what might be going on. However I still like my vote for now, because I am not really sure.
What was it that you realized might be going on? To me, this reads like you're nervous that your vote will make you look scummy.
I'm a touch surprised that people don't actually seem to know how a neutral survivor works (at least how I've read it). Scum don't kill him, because he's a scum vote when the town is in lylo. Functionally, he's a townie until it actually matters. If we're just amazing and nail scum every single day, it'll never be relevant, which is nice, but we make mistakes, lrd's existence is going to become increasingly dangerous, at which point we're really not going to want to spare the lynch, and if he's not lying about his NK half-immunity, vigging him becomes very dangerous.
The other likelihood is that he's lying about the half immunity, as it both decreases his chances of being lynched (you can still vig him) or vigged (1-shots aren't going to want to waste a shot, if we don't have a recurring vig, he's probably not dead, motivates scum not to kill him). Whether he's crafty enough to be deliberate about such a claim I dunno, but it's rather elegant as far as avoiding death, whether that's design or falseclaim.
And this all is assuming he's actually a neutral survivor, which is one of the most claimed roles as scum ever.
IMHO, at best he's falseclaiming scum (of which I would think that there's a higher than random chance), and at worst he's a potentially dangerous neutral. He should be dead.
Unvote, Vote: lrd
I agree with this post completely. We either lynch him now or later, and later, roles like the doc might be dead. If we do it now, at least we have a chance of random role-based blocks and we're going to have to get rid of him either way - the difference between there being X scum and X-1 scum is negligible, assuming we end up lynching an actual scum.
I'm a touch surprised that people don't actually seem to know how a neutral survivor works (at least how I've read it). Scum don't kill him, because he's a scum vote when the town is in lylo. Functionally, he's a townie until it actually matters. If we're just amazing and nail scum every single day, it'll never be relevant, which is nice, but we make mistakes, lrd's existence is going to become increasingly dangerous, at which point we're really not going to want to spare the lynch, and if he's not lying about his NK half-immunity, vigging him becomes very dangerous.
The other likelihood is that he's lying about the half immunity, as it both decreases his chances of being lynched (you can still vig him) or vigged (1-shots aren't going to want to waste a shot, if we don't have a recurring vig, he's probably not dead, motivates scum not to kill him). Whether he's crafty enough to be deliberate about such a claim I dunno, but it's rather elegant as far as avoiding death, whether that's design or falseclaim.
And this all is assuming he's actually a neutral survivor, which is one of the most claimed roles as scum ever.
IMHO, at best he's falseclaiming scum (of which I would think that there's a higher than random chance), and at worst he's a potentially dangerous neutral. He should be dead.
Unvote, Vote: lrd
All of the above (especially the bit about being one of the most claimed roles as scum ever). Couldn't have put it better.
Even though I don't think he is mafia, I thought he could be some sort of anti-town neutral, so I still wanted to keep some pressure on him. At the time, I didn't really see anywhere else to put my vote.
This is more what I was expecting. Pippin makes sense as a neutral survivor, not as a force of evil, and you didn't really seem town when you claimed to be a hobbit/elf.
Two questions though:
1.) Why did you initially claim town? Claiming neutral survivor would have gotten some pressure off of you, since a day 1 lynch of a survivor is typically bad play (depending on the setup I guess). Now it just looks weird with you switching from town to neutral.
2.) What's the flavor of your 50% NK immunity?
I'm a little worried at your reluctance to claim your flavor at first, since Pippin doesn't really indicate a power role or anything really scummy. I'm inclined to believe you for now though.
unvote
Getting comfortable up on that fence? A more agonised attempt to get off the wagon without looking like you're completely backing him as town, I have rarely seen.
NOT making me feel any better about you.
BTW, I'll give you an answer to one of your rhetorical questions.
A neutral survivor's lynch is a mislynch by the scums' standard.
I query why you were asking for lrd to vigged; if you did not believe he was scum, this does not make sense, and if you did, why vig him? I think everyone and their dog has commented on lrd; we absolutely want to know his alignment for sure before night choices. Luckily, it seems we may be able to have our cake and eat it....
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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Kpaca kill whoever you want to kill, but let me remind you that in less than a 24 hour period Cyan said this
Quote from Cyan »
I'm not sure that just relying on a Vig is going to work. Based on my own role info, I suspect that this game may not have a traditional Vig. I'm not really comfortable saying more at this time, but given this, + the fact that lrd is claiming neutral survivor, + the fact that it's Day 1, I think that lrd should be today's lynch.
However, I think that we should proceed a little further, and work out someone that we want to be Vigged(in case I'm wrong about having a vig in regard to my own role). If we have a Vig, he can kill that person instead.
Obviously I nominate DV for that honor.
Quote from Cyan »
So he did, so he did. That definitely addresses my concern re: my role.
Kpaca, please vig lrd immediately.
Cyan has called me scum for the last 24 hour period. Used the worst proof I have ever seen. And then asked for Lrd to be vigged..... Go figure.
@ Yodo You are an idiot if you think that I would claim this.
Just an over sight, this game has made me decide that I probably never want to play a game like this again. I have never seen people jump up and down over the dumbest of things and think that they have caught scum on post like 50 or so. I really fail to see how I would make a mistake and claim hobbit when it is said expressly everywhere that the mafia are on the side of good. Seriously. Frankly I am offended.
Sorry for the double post but I feel the need to respond to this BS right here.
Quote from Cyan »
Oh, really?
At the start of Intergalatic Fleet Mafia, I stated that the manner in which you were playing that game was not how you play as town.
I was correct then.
I am correct now.
DV is scum.
Look it Cyan. Being right once doesn't make you right every time. You thought I was town in Tales remember? You were wrong there. So does that make you wrong every time? No.... But you being right once doesn't make you right every time. And don't wave your fist and pout like a child and say "The flavor was off" "It wasn't fair" because that's what it sounds like when you say that. Cyan you are dead wrong on this, you are almost always wrong. And the way you go about this is just being an ass. Like I wouldn't care if you had a case on me and such. But to think that I would A) "Pull a gambit" like this and then to B) Say I got it right once so I am always right. It is just so BS.
I already explained why I think you're scum. Every post you make only makes you look more scummy. Especially when first you tried to say 'Oh you only played a couple of games with me as town, it doesn't count', and then when that exampled is completely obliterated, instead you say 'Oh well you're not right all of the time'.
And Tales is a terrible example, because it was the first game I'd played with you. You bluffed me there. Congrats. I haven't been wrong on you since, including correctly naming you as scum.
I query why you were asking for lrd to vigged; if you did not believe he was scum, this does not make sense, and if you did, why vig him? I think everyone and their dog has commented on lrd; we absolutely want to know his alignment for sure before night choices. Luckily, it seems we may be able to have our cake and eat it....
I'll answer this first. Neutrals should always be removed without impeding the town's normal lynch in order to strengthen the town's endgame potential, because frankly, neutrals cannot be relied on to serve the town's best interest 100% of the time.
And Tales is a terrible example, because it was the first game I'd played with you. You bluffed me there. Congrats. I haven't been wrong on you since, including correctly naming you as scum.
Really now? What other games other than Fleet are you talking about?
I already explained why I think you're scum. Every post you make only makes you look more scummy. Especially when first you tried to say 'Oh you only played a couple of games with me as town, it doesn't count', and then when that exampled is completely obliterated, instead you say 'Oh well you're not right all of the time'.
And Tales is a terrible example, because it was the first game I'd played with you. You bluffed me there. Congrats. I haven't been wrong on you since, including correctly naming you as scum.
You are just flailing miserably now.
No I am just attacking every crappy point you can raise against me. So, by definition if I am attacking what you have to say, and I am flailing, then you are also flailing because I am only responding to what you have to say.
Also, how am I flailing? I don't think I am and I would love for you to explain this other than saying so. Otherwise the world is flat.
But I'm going with Red 0mega for now. A lot of his posts are more or less saying things that are obviously good for the town, rather than actual insight. It reminds me of how Gigas/KeeperofZion played in Basic 8, where they were both scum. Also this:
What was it that you realized might be going on? To me, this reads like you're nervous that your vote will make you look scummy.
vote red_0mega
You think I am scum because I said things that are obviously good for the town? That does not make any sense to me. How about instead of comparing me to other people in some random game, go look at games I have actually been in.
That quote made me rethink a few things, and yes I could see a few elves/hobbits that could be neutral or even evil.
Let's play day-vig the neutral suvivor and see if he was really a neutral survivor and then go from there. It really changes one's perspective on things if he just so happens to be scum, and I don't doubt that possibility.
It's not like he hasn't already signed his death certificate, so why prolong the inevitable?
Let's play day-vig the neutral suvivor and see if he was really a neutral survivor and then go from there. It really changes one's perspective on things if he just so happens to be scum, and I don't doubt that possibility.
It's not like he hasn't already signed his death certificate, so why prolong the inevitable?
Or I could claim? You are really looking forward to me dying aren't you?
This is one of those times I feel like "the town" is being used from someone who doesn't see themselves as part of it.
lrd claims, he's a hobbit or elf, but apparently doesn't see why this matters, and I think that's the crux. If he was a townie hobbit somehow and got the point of why that's a worry....
1. Well, given you didn't realise why I was asking...
2. Oh, and would you really claim hobbit/elf if you were town, without also giving some indication that you knew that looked scummy?
c) Screw up and walk into a trap.
Yes, it would have been. Hindsight is everything.
Still hindsight. if you were town, would you not think "hmm, they're going to be a bit suspicious of this?" But you showed no signs you expected it to be treated as suspicious.
Quite.
Me.
Hmm. OK. Although the timestamps are pretty close together.
Yes. That is why I asked the question. So why the vote?
OK, got it.
Interesting theory. There is some logic behind it.
Wait, did you seriously intend to trap people with your original post?
Sword of Truth and Basic #10, both ongoing.
OK... but I think you're going overboard with it. Sure it's unlikely but it's still possible.
RafK had started with the request, then ZDS joined in and then I followed suit, all stressing how important it was to claim immediately. You had to make up your mind on the spot what to do when faced with the requests of 3 different players and I'm sure that the fact that you would be revealing yourself slipped your mind.
Also, you say that it would have been incredibly easy to lie but later you say multiple times that you were not aware that it was a trap to catch scum, in which case you would not know that you had to lie.
Why if DV's claim was true would he try to backpedal out of it?
I agree...but isn't this exactly what lrd is doing? Why no love for him?
Yeah, this contradicts yourself as I mentioned above.
Not particularly inclined to believe this. As others mentioned it seems that this would be neutral at best. Besides, I'm pretty sure you just used all the time you got from stalling to make this up.
I still want to hear you fullclaim.
Why bother saying this? (Well I know why, but assigning blame for scummy behaviour that you haven't really acknowledged on a cold doesn't inspire me with confidence).
Maybe. Or your scum. Time will tell.
Ok.
Got it now.
And if you were town you wouldn't think about why people wanted you to claim?
I'd rather you claim as soon as possible. I don't want anymore stalling so that you have a chance to think of a good claim.
I wondered about that. His first two posts made small probing attacks without laying a vote - something that doesn't seem to fit his M.O.
Got it.
Agreed.
Was the 'possible neutral' that you were referring to not Bilbo?
I've already said why: if lrd is scum with you, you would be showing that an evil hobbit exists and cast doubt on lrd being scum.
Exactly. At the time you didn't know what was going on and didn't realize that you were outing yourself as scum.
Me.
I feel pretty strongly that lrd is scum. He has tried to WIFOM again and again saying that as scum he would have just kept quite, but wouldn't he have kept just at quiet if he was town and realized that hobbits/elves would be associated with mafia? Later he admits that he didn't realize at the time that it was a trap. If he didn't realize it was a trap how would he react differently as scum?
I really want a fullclaim from him.
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
What is he doing that you see as newb town specifically? What would you expect of newb scum in this situation?
Basic #10-Town-Win
Sword of Truth-Town-Loss
LOTR II - Town-Loss
Indiana Jones - Town-Win
Manipulator - Town-Win
The Asphodel Meadows - Town-Win
Highlander - Neutral Survivor - Win
And then, beyond that, he flatly admits to what most people are going to read as 'you walked into a trap as scum'.
Maybe you guys were never newb scum, or haven't played with many. I was scum as a newb repeatedly, and have been in games where others were newb scum. What lrd did here is not something that newb scum do.
DV, on the other hand, tried to come out looking like aces by defending lrd and proclaiming to be Bilbo Baggins at the same time, then immediately bailed on it all.
I am fairly familiar with how DV plays as town. In my estimation, this is not it.
Something about that last bit seems painfully familiar.
Lesson learned. Even obvious traps have a chance of working (apparently).
I understood what you said the first time. As stated, I think anyone who's played in even one game should be aware enough to see through that trap. Also, I imagine that since the town win con is to eliminate those not loyal to Sauron, the scum win con is to outnumber those loyal to Sauron, something which should be in every scum's role PM, in case they were too ignorant to read the OP. Is it scummy to assume that players read? I don't think so.
If someone were standing behind me IRL with a gun to my head, I would certainly feel pressured and would probably do whatever that person wanted me to do. Pressure in forum Mafia should not scare people into doing something apparently suicidal. My bad for assuming that people think before they post.
I'll back the full claim as well.
"Blame" is an exaggeration. I merely made the comment that being sick is detrimental to my gameplay. Looking back, I can see how my posts might seem scummy, and there's not much I can say about that now other than, "I'll make better posts from now on."
Why would DV defend lrd if lrd wasn't scum? Something doesn't add up here.
Yes, full claim please.
To gain townie points.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Oh, is it? I don't recall AI was the first person you were going after, but in any case it's entirely independent of whether you're scum. Besides, I'm more interested in responses from you and the others for now, though as far as I can tell, most people (other than Calvin, who is now my friend) are reluctant to touch on the possibility of you being scum with a 20-foot pole.
The way you presented it was not giving RO a chance to explain himself. The way you presented it was trying to gauge other people's responses about the supposed rationality of RO's statement. It was akin to an invitation for other people to attack RO first for said statement he made, people like Zebi who followed up on your statement with an FoS on RO.
You claimed that you're giving RO a chance to explain himself, but he never did. If that is really what you were doing, the first abnormality would be you didn't vote RO first, then only giving a chance for an explanation. The second abnormality would be you not following up on RO after he didn't explain himself, as you claimed he didn't. What happened to the biting and not letting go?
You did not answer my question. Are you town?
You certainly didn't respond like one. You kept spouting about how impossible for you to be scum, but you acted so leery of revealing your alignment. But why? If you're not scum, you must be town? Why all the reluctance?
Cyan should respond to this question by Calvin.
Well, I would like to add that mafia see townies everywhere, because they know that to be true.
Err... to look like town?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
And I did answer that question from Calvin.
I went back and checked. How fleeting my mind is, apparently.
Anyway, I still hold the same opinion on RO. And AI. And DV. I think they're all scum. DV is just the most likely.
Really? What games?
@ Calvin No I was never saying that Bilbo was neutral. I was saying that I could think of a possible neutral hobbit. Then I just claimed Bilbo for kicks and giggles. The two are completely separate.
Another Nice Cyan Barn. Unvote Vote jerubbaal
I like how you ignore my question about what games have you played with me when I am town.
I am asserting that it hasn't happened more than 2 or 3 times. And so you saying you know how I play as town is pointless.
I do believe that he is Bilbo Baggins. But what he was trying to do was "Oh crap, I claimed when there was no need and now, I am trying to WIFOM to get myself out of my claim.
So, my vote still stays.
The only time flavour speculation is useful is when a mod is clearly trying to be consistent in terms of providing flavour for game mechanics, pretty much. Conceivably that's the case here, because Axelrod has bent over backwards to say HEROES = SCUM and so it would be a little bastardly for him to make exceptions. Reinforced because the original LOTR Mafia had no such exceptions either (depending on what you think of Frodo being corrupted at the very end). But that's still speculation at this point. I don't think it's much of a reason to support the lrd wagon (good thing there are other reasons eh?), and I'd like to head that kind of thinking off at the pass unless we end up with stronger evidence that the mod's flavour is consistent in this game.
Oh, really?
At the start of Intergalatic Fleet Mafia, I stated that the manner in which you were playing that game was not how you play as town.
I was correct then.
I am correct now.
DV is scum.
Actually, you just need one game to get a baseline reading. Two to three is more than enough.
What about scum defending town?
That's more like it.
A vigshot should be aimed at lrd, btw.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
However, I think that we should proceed a little further, and work out someone that we want to be Vigged(in case I'm wrong about having a vig in regard to my own role). If we have a Vig, he can kill that person instead.
Obviously I nominate DV for that honor.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
But in circumstances where you may not be able to remove them via traditional means, it has to be considered as a possibility.
I could claim my role. It would help us work out this situation, but the scum having my role information would most likely be detrimental to the town later.
That seems more likely...
That is a good question, and I would like to know the answer too.
I think I would rather lynch Deaths_Vampire and try to get lrd vigged or lynch him later. I am more worried about scum than an (apparent) neutral.
Unvote: lrd; Vote: Deaths_Vampire
Then don't yet.
smoke_Killah
Wouldn't it make more sense to find a solid lynch candidate and then see what happens to our neutral survivor overnight?
I don't like the cost vs. benefit here. If we assume that DV believed lrd to be town and DV is scum, DV sticking out his neck by claiming a Hobbit to protect a townie seems suicidal. After all, if DV dies, he can't cash in those townie points.
I don't think Cyan answered any of these questions. He just said, "No, I didn't." "Oh wait, yeah I did."
Uhh...I "lied" when I said that "no one here would fall for RK's obvious trap." Funny that you would twist a colloquial alternative to "my mistake" into "I'm a liar."
Did I defend lrd? No. Get your facts straight before using them to accuse people of being scummy.
I like this post a lot.
Are you sure it's a good idea to say that at this point? Giving the scum free info seems unwise.
So now we're saying, "If there's a vig out there, please shoot Player X." This doesn't seem like a good idea, either, simply because there might be a role that can take advantage of a publicly premeditated kill.
Definintely. lrd's claim is a little fishy because he didn't come forward with it immediately, but lynching him today doesn't seem like a good idea any more. We can always wait and see what happens later.
Unvote lrd
Why did you dig up that post simply to make me look bad? At the time there was demand for people to reveal whether they belonged to those races, so (like you yourself) I shared whether I am of one of those races.
Assuming your claim is valid, you stand a decent chance of making it to the endgame simply because the scum won't want to risk a NK on a 50% success rate.
It is when you give away the trap.
This happens alot. Its not like the vig has to listen to us anyways.
Scum won't NK him because he's not town. He'll work with whoever is more likely to win; we have no garuntee he's going to play like a townie if he can win by rushlynching someone with scum.
As for lrd, I'm seriously considering Cyan's idea of lynching him today.
Unless the scum kill lrd and he flips town. Then DV looks fantastic.
I did, in fact, address this. I still think RO is scum. Along with you(especially after your last post).
But DV is still scummiest of all.
Well of course you're going to try to be helpful, but I was talking about endgame where we can't trust you at all.
The other likelihood is that he's lying about the half immunity, as it both decreases his chances of being lynched (you can still vig him) or vigged (1-shots aren't going to want to waste a shot, if we don't have a recurring vig, he's probably not dead, motivates scum not to kill him). Whether he's crafty enough to be deliberate about such a claim I dunno, but it's rather elegant as far as avoiding death, whether that's design or falseclaim.
And this all is assuming he's actually a neutral survivor, which is one of the most claimed roles as scum ever.
IMHO, at best he's falseclaiming scum (of which I would think that there's a higher than random chance), and at worst he's a potentially dangerous neutral. He should be dead.
Unvote, Vote: lrd
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
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MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Even though I don't think he is mafia, I thought he could be some sort of anti-town neutral, so I still wanted to keep some pressure on him. At the time, I didn't really see anywhere else to put my vote.
This is more what I was expecting. Pippin makes sense as a neutral survivor, not as a force of evil, and you didn't really seem town when you claimed to be a hobbit/elf.
Two questions though:
1.) Why did you initially claim town? Claiming neutral survivor would have gotten some pressure off of you, since a day 1 lynch of a survivor is typically bad play (depending on the setup I guess). Now it just looks weird with you switching from town to neutral.
2.) What's the flavor of your 50% NK immunity?
I'm a little worried at your reluctance to claim your flavor at first, since Pippin doesn't really indicate a power role or anything really scummy. I'm inclined to believe you for now though.
unvote
This seems kinda contrived for scum to come up with, so I'm inclined to think you're town.
As has already been said, you shouldn't claim now. Even if we don't have a traditional vig, we can figure something out. If there is a vig, I agree that he should probably fire tonight.
~
Asian has been giving me some bad feelings this game, so I'm not opposed to his wagon.
DV I'm going to look at more closely, and lrd raised a good point with DV cutting the gambit so early.
But I'm going with Red 0mega for now. A lot of his posts are more or less saying things that are obviously good for the town, rather than actual insight. It reminds me of how Gigas/KeeperofZion played in Basic 8, where they were both scum. Also this:
What was it that you realized might be going on? To me, this reads like you're nervous that your vote will make you look scummy.
vote red_0mega
I agree with this post completely. We either lynch him now or later, and later, roles like the doc might be dead. If we do it now, at least we have a chance of random role-based blocks and we're going to have to get rid of him either way - the difference between there being X scum and X-1 scum is negligible, assuming we end up lynching an actual scum.
Unvote, vote lrd
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Kpaca, please vig lrd immediately.
All of the above (especially the bit about being one of the most claimed roles as scum ever). Couldn't have put it better.
Getting comfortable up on that fence? A more agonised attempt to get off the wagon without looking like you're completely backing him as town, I have rarely seen.
NOT making me feel any better about you.
BTW, I'll give you an answer to one of your rhetorical questions.
Answer: He hasn't thought of the neutral claim yet.
I query why you were asking for lrd to vigged; if you did not believe he was scum, this does not make sense, and if you did, why vig him? I think everyone and their dog has commented on lrd; we absolutely want to know his alignment for sure before night choices. Luckily, it seems we may be able to have our cake and eat it....
I had. If it's true and he wasn't joking around, I agree he should shoot lrd forthwith, best of all possible worlds.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
Cyan has called me scum for the last 24 hour period. Used the worst proof I have ever seen. And then asked for Lrd to be vigged..... Go figure.
@ Yodo You are an idiot if you think that I would claim this.
Just an over sight, this game has made me decide that I probably never want to play a game like this again. I have never seen people jump up and down over the dumbest of things and think that they have caught scum on post like 50 or so. I really fail to see how I would make a mistake and claim hobbit when it is said expressly everywhere that the mafia are on the side of good. Seriously. Frankly I am offended.
Nice desperation attempt, though.
Look it Cyan. Being right once doesn't make you right every time. You thought I was town in Tales remember? You were wrong there. So does that make you wrong every time? No.... But you being right once doesn't make you right every time. And don't wave your fist and pout like a child and say "The flavor was off" "It wasn't fair" because that's what it sounds like when you say that. Cyan you are dead wrong on this, you are almost always wrong. And the way you go about this is just being an ass. Like I wouldn't care if you had a case on me and such. But to think that I would A) "Pull a gambit" like this and then to B) Say I got it right once so I am always right. It is just so BS.
And Tales is a terrible example, because it was the first game I'd played with you. You bluffed me there. Congrats. I haven't been wrong on you since, including correctly naming you as scum.
You are just flailing miserably now.
I'll answer this first. Neutrals should always be removed without impeding the town's normal lynch in order to strengthen the town's endgame potential, because frankly, neutrals cannot be relied on to serve the town's best interest 100% of the time.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Really now? What other games other than Fleet are you talking about?
No I am just attacking every crappy point you can raise against me. So, by definition if I am attacking what you have to say, and I am flailing, then you are also flailing because I am only responding to what you have to say.
Also, how am I flailing? I don't think I am and I would love for you to explain this other than saying so. Otherwise the world is flat.
You think I am scum because I said things that are obviously good for the town? That does not make any sense to me. How about instead of comparing me to other people in some random game, go look at games I have actually been in.
That quote made me rethink a few things, and yes I could see a few elves/hobbits that could be neutral or even evil.
smoke_Killah
It's not like he hasn't already signed his death certificate, so why prolong the inevitable?
Or I could claim? You are really looking forward to me dying aren't you?