The only time you read as hungry for discovery was in regards to the daykiller. Your skepticism on Zionite wasn't coming across as genuine to me. Stuff like that. Yeah, whenever you're quiet it is suspect, but it had more to do with what you were posting when you were here than not being here.
Eh, yes, I'm not terribly surprised at that having tripped me up. I was genuinely frustrated at the existence of a PR that could be twisted into pseudo-clearance (because despite RafK's sensible reservations, it was obvious that the existence of the PR swung opinions completely around, and caused people to think of Zionite as cleared).
I think that kind of contributed to my lack of motivation, really.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Okay, ive gotten permission to necro this for the point of discussion / to explain the setup as this was the only FTQ game to ever die out due to mod inactivity.
Now, i've found the game's setup, and would like to get some discussion on this preferably, as its got some interesting roles and mechanics i'd love to get some feedback on for future use.
Without further adieu, the setup.
Legion 1.:
Cav Scout - Perma-Watcher (2Pt T / 2.5 Pt M) (can target 1/2/3), Night
1: Declares a suspect of interest. From that point forward, the scout
watches that person until their death, gaining the watching
information for ALL day and night actions the player takes. Declares a
new target upon old targets death.
Cav Scout - Perma-Tracker (2 pt T, 2.5 Pt M)(Can target 1/4/5), Night
1: Declares a suspect of interest. From that point forward, the scout
tracks that person until their death, gaining the tracking information
for ALL day and night actions the player takes. Declares a new target
upon old targets death.
Hippodrome Rider – Vanilla (1/1). (Becomes untargettable until he
loses the signet.) Signet can still be stolen.
Shock Trooper - Gambler (1 / 1): Can bet his LIFE that the person he
targets is allied with him. As such, he forms a lover-type
relationship with the target. If the target dies, the gamblers debt
collectors come to kill him. He gains the non-faction abilities his
lover has, but maintains a townie win condition. has no effect upon
the lover if he survives
Legion #2:
Battle Medic - Day Doc (1T / 1M)(Target 2/1/5) - doctors during the
day (Day/ night doc with signet)
Battlefield Leech – Leech (2T/3M) (Targets 2/3/4) -
Natrona Harkabi - Masada Rebellion Descendant
District: Palastina, Aelia Capitolina
Ancestry: Jewish
Profession: Forcefully Recruited Battlefield Leech
“Join Ferrata or face the gallows.” Risk my life to protect the empire
I’ve spent my life hating or die. A choice that isn’t a choice. If I
die now, I orphan my children, I Widow my wife. So, regretfully, I don
the Red. I attend training, learn how to wield the Gladius, learn the
Phalanx. I become a finely honed machine, working with men I cannot
stand. Some who willingly joined to protect their nation. End of the
first month, I met Valens. Son of a Gladiator, he believed in Rome,
believed in what it stood for. An idealistic fool, he got injured
quite badly during a training mission against the Goth of Moesia
Inferior. The idiocy of youth believing yourself invincible. Midfield,
as rookie scuffs, we had nothing. No medical attaché, no field medic.
When they found out I had medical experience, they forced me to
operate. So I did. He cried as I separated his leg beneath the knee.
He screamed when I removed his left eye. He pleaded against the
leeches until they rendered him unconscious. He was barely a man when
I finished, but he survived. He got mustered out shortly after due to
his ‘ghastly disfigurement’s.’ Apparently, you need both legs to
fight.
I was put into their medical wing shortly after that. Apparently they
believed I did good work. “No one else could have saved that kid’s
life”, they kept telling me. I left a trail of crippled and the dead
across Rome. I saved their lives, I used what methods I had to use to
save them. Some were left blind, others armless, legless freaks. But I
saved them according to my oath.
Unfortunately, it seemed the more men I saved, the farther I got from
my beloved Judea; from my children and wife. I became one of the
disaffected. One of those jew’s who was sent from one end of the
empire to the next at the whims of my imperial masters. At long last I
ended up in Britannia. I learnt afterwards that this is where the
dissidents end up, where they were planning to send me all along,
based on something Hadrian said centuries ago, “Separate the Jew from
Judea and he shall wither.” ‘
My methods from there on out were effective, so effective that nearly
a third of my patients died. They quickly learnt to not leave a
subject in my tender care for long as they would likely not leave
alive. And even then, they only sent me those no one else could save,
for my methods were unquestionably effective at saving their lives.
The question always remained of, ‘What life could they lead after
this?’ This was not a question I asked myself. I simply didn’t care.
If they survived, they survived. If they died, they died. I tried to
save their lives, and if they suffered while I did so, all the better.
Harm saving a persons life is acceptable in my eyes.
Time settled and seemed to draw on abominably. My hair grayed, my
memories of beloved Judea faded. Eventually, all I was left of my life
was this… bitterness. This hatred to the Romans and their pets. And I
most appallingly am one of their pets. At long last, the Celts
attacked us. We took heavy casualties, and my services were called
into duty. Surely enough, we defeated them, but between my skills and
that of our enemy, but 18 of us were left in our area. All hale,
healthy men.
Let’s see if I can fix that.
Abilities: Each night, you may doctor a player, protecting them from
any potential night kills, but in doing so, you will leave them barely
on the edge of life, and unable to be subjected to another of your
“ministrations”. If you attempt to doctor a player a second time, they
will die. (You must doctor twice before killing them if you are mafia)
Win Conditions: Make the Romans suffer and eliminate the traitors ///
Eliminate the Roman scum.
|------------------------------
|Standard Bearer - Townie Lynch Protected Target (3T)- If targeted by
any mafia ability, the player has the option to Block the player
|targetting him and force him to use the mafia NK on him (Via the
player who targetted him intially). In addition to htis ability, the
|standard bearer has 2 shot lynch protection. (Possibly 1 depending on
the balance).
|
|Standard Bearer - Mafia Jester (1.5 pt M) - This is a standard jester
role. He has the mafia win condition (Control the lynch), and the
Jester |Win Condition: Get Lynched after day 1, but before day 5.
(Otherwise the player loses)
|------------------------------
Battlefield Executioner – Threshold Reducer (1 T / 3 M) - Whenever a
player is at L-1, this roles vote is automatically placed on the
target.
Legion #3:
Spy - Half-cop (Targets 1/3/5),
Assassin- Jelous Dayvig (Targets 2.3.4) - Once during the day may PM
me a player name. If the target used an ability the night before, the
target dies.
Poisoner - Stockpile Vig (Targets 1/5/3) - Each night, Poisons a
target and gives them a slowing agent at the same time. Each night, he
poisons a new target, and slows the poisons of all targets, new and
old. Upon his death, the poisons take effect, and all poisoned targets
die.
Senatorial Bodyguard - Liar : Must lie about every direct inquiry
directed towards him. Someone asks him his name, he must lie. Someone
asks for his justification for his vote, must lie. Alignment questions
are totally discretionary. ect.
QuarterMaster - Modified Redirector - (4/5/2) During each day, may
offer a player a bonus action that night in exchange for a favour
later on during the game. (Cannot be refused) When the favor is
called, the quarter master player does the following:
• Blocks Target
• Copies Targets Ability
• Directs Copy At Target Of His Choice.
These favors must not all be called upon at once, and may be
stockpiled. You may call upon multiple favours at once. Starts the
game with 1 owed favor from a player of his choice.
Legion #5:
Sharpshooter - Veto Maker (Can grant one person a day a vote reset),
Blacksmith - Gunsmith (Can target 1.3.5), Each night, the blacksmith
visits a target under the pretense of weapon maintainence. He can
check the weaponry for nicks or signs of combat use since the game has
begun. Learns if the target has killed thusfar this game.
Soldiers Heart Soldier - Worse the Vanilla: Votes made against the SHS
persist for the rest of the game. At the end of each day, the amount
of active votes on him disipate by half. I.e. 4 becomes 2, 1 becomes
2, 2 becomes 1. Ect ect.
Non-Legioned:
Governor: Each Night, he may research a players legion. He may choose
to send a PM to that player telling them their legion.
Imposter Senator: Gains abilities based on amount of imperial signets
possessed.
• 1 signet = Veto. (Resets the vote count)
• 2 signets = 1 NK protection
• 3 Signets = Daykill / Rob
• 4 Signet = 1 Shot Hide ability (night activated)
• 5 Signets = Win.
Gladiator. SK variant. Each hammer he commits grants him an additional
vote only usable one time. At night, he may try to GUESS the player
who is going to be NK'd. He will essentially block the NK, then kill
the target anyway. This would grant him an additional Temporary Vote.
Win condition: Have enough temporary votes to control the lynch for
the rest of the game.
Legion 6:
Traitor General - Mafia Captain - Gains the mafia version of abilities
for the first player NK'd.
Alcoholic Soldier - May vote twice every odd day. May only vote once
on even days. (Becomes 2 votes EVERY day when signetted)
Vanilla - Totally Vanilla (Signet ability: Godfather)
Reply
Reply to all
Forward
Reply
ken jones to Lee, mjpoplas
show details May 13
New Role PM:
Asiaticus Ouaknin – Libyan Shock Trooper
District: Libya Superior, Cyrene
Ancestry: Berber
Profession: Corpse Robber / Gambler.
It’s a hard place, Libya. After the silphium dried up, Cyrene went
dead, and many of the more prosperous townships in Libya followed suit
shortly after. As I said, Libya is a hard place, few natural
resources, little in the way of civilization. So when the Imperial
Recruiters rumbled through, looking for new soldiers to defend Rome, I
leapt at the chance. Escape from the drudgery and misery, a chance to
make solid roman gold, a chance to perhaps bed a roman woman, take her
as wife, become a citizen. The dream of all us scuffs. Advancement in
the world doesn’t come easy, and hard places breed hard men, so early
on, my ability to break a mans will, to bend him to my desires and
needs became evident. After intimidating my commander for a third
time, the embarrassed leadership core decided I would be best placed
on the front line, wherein my fear inspiring nature could perhaps be
put to good use, and if not, a quick death for someone who had so
shamed them. Unfortunately for them, I thrived at the front.
Men relate later how at the mere sight of my hulking, armored body,
many lesser men abandoned the field totally, and those who didn’t…
well, let’s just say that there’s some benefits to being the first on
the field. The hardest part about looting a mans corpse in the middle
of a battle is deciding how to spend it all. A quick hack of the
gladius and his hand came off, a slice of the hand and the fingers
separate. I often managed to do this during combat, which made things
better since it made looting faster. The faster I loot, the faster I
kill someone else and loot them. One would assume I would feel…
something over robbing a corpse, but it’s a pretty simple situation.
In Libya, you let nothing go to waste. Not food, not clothes, and
especially not jewelry, not when it can improve someone else’s life.
And by someone, I mean mine.
Unfortunately, as time passed, my commanders started to notice that
their shares were getting cut into. When they saw me one night
gambling with my… proceeds from the battle that day, suffice to say,
they weren’t terribly impressed. I got sent on riskier and riskier
assignments until I was sent into battle without reinforcements at
all. Myself against a knot of Thuringii, a fearful thought to any
warrior. The germanics were no real challenge though, and the gold
they supplied gave me money for gambling for 3 nights. Winning, and
losing alternatively, until I ran out. At that point, I just insulted
another group of Germanics and they provided me the gold for a few
more days of play.
After a while of this, the command thought my… skill set could be of
use in Britannia. The Celt’s were acting up, the Hibernian’s were
raiding occasionally, and the natives were getting restless, something
about wanting the Romans out of their isle. Whatever, their death will
provide the gold all the same…
Let’s Gamble With My Life.
Abilities: At any point during the game, using Bold, Underlined,
Italic, Orange font, you may declare someone Town. If you do so, you
gamble your life that that player is town. When you do so, you manage
to intimidate him enough that he will do anything you ask of him to
keep you happy, including teaching you his particular skillset that
grants him such distinction for being in Britannia. All flavor will be
your own, and when you die, your title will be “Asiaticus Ouaknin –
Gambler”. Once someone is declared town, you have made your bet, and
wagered your life. If your “Townie” partner dies, you lose all
abilities, and will die at the next vote count; debt collectors are
quite serious.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/
Abilities: At any point during the game, using Bold, Underlined,
Italic, Orange font, you may declare someone scum. If you do so, you
gamble your life that that player is scum. When you do so, you manage
to intimidate him enough that he will do anything you ask of him to
keep you happy, including teaching you his particular skillset that
grants him such distinction for being in Britannia. All flavor will be
your own, and when you die, your title will be “Asiaticus Ouaknin –
Gambler”. Once someone is declared scum, you have made your bet, and
wagered your life. If your “Scum” partner dies, you lose all
abilities, and will die at the next vote count; debt collectors are
quite serious.
Win Conditions: Rob the Celts Blind, and Protect Rome! /// Gather
enough gold to retire to Rome in comfort, rob the roman legions blind!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Some explanations of mechanics:
First, Legions.
Legions
Now, the reason the game died after i left was because few people truly understood how the legions mechanic truly worked. Here's the skinny, each legion was based on 2-4 players, usually 4. Each legion had a specially designed role: Support, investigative, ect.
Legions also provided the targetting ability for the game. A role like "Cav Scout - Perma-Watcher (2Pt T / 2.5 Pt M) (can target 1/2/3)" could target players from legion 1, legion 2, or legion 3. 4 and 5, as well as the non legioned were off limits. Its part of what gave the neutrals / non-legioned any chance at all to survive and win. it also allowed me to have a huge amount of powered players without them being terribly nerfed. The 2pt T / 2.5 pt M meant that for town, it was a 2 point role, and for mafia it was a 2.5. this helped to, in general, balance each legion against each other. I.e. having a legion with 4 players all worth the same amount or whatever the setup was.
The last thing legions were good for: They provided the recruitment method for the game. Ace was the Godfather, and sent me a listing of who he wanted. He would get his FIRST choice from each legion, and i purposely wouild fudge some legions to be more experienced then others. I.e. a legion of experienced players, a legion of noobs, ect. It allowed the mafia to get a good amount of experience as well as noobs. The best balance i could find; if not perfect.
Players didnt know their legions. That was a balancing mechanic.
Signets
Signets were given to certain roles at the start of the game (Like the vanillas) in the interest of them being useful (non vanilla), and other signets were randomly allocated, again based on legions. (1 signet per legion)
Signets would allow their wielders to target any players from any legions. This represented the favor of rome. This mechanic was also the win condition for a few roles: I.e. Senator imposter.
Upon a players death, if they had a signet, it would randomly be allocated to a player from their legion. If there were none, it would fall dead, and be out of the game for anyone who wasnt the imposter senator. The imposter senator could simply pick it up as it was his win con and it would be dickish to cause him to be unable to win.
Necro authorized for further discussion of this setup -Annorax
Okay, to follow the rules for not editting after a mods edit, the purpose of this is to get opinions so i can hopefully figure out what parts to scrap, and what parts to salvage. I hope there's some interesting pieces in here, and the mechanics... are likely too complex to ever see the light of day again in any meaningful manner. They were designed for this games flavor, and im not sure how well they'd ever be reproduced. Maybe as a mini.
Im rambling. Lemme know your thoughts. Please
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Well, this game does certainly look complicated. I suppose if I had a role and i was in the game, not knowing anything else, it would make sense.
Pros: Interesting, flavorful, original mechanics
Cons: Too complicated for people to analyze what is going on(in a regular mafia game, you can guess what happened in a night if everyone speaks about what they did and you can fill in blanks. In this game, it would be very difficult to ascertain what is going on behind the scenes without an intimate knowledge of the setup). This might be why players gave up trying to figure it all out.
I think if you simplified things, like got rid of extra stuff and just focused on the legions, or just on the signets, it would be much easier to understand for the average player.
EDIT: LOL i just realized I replaced into this game! I can't for the life of me remember how it went...one sec...
*moments later"
Ok I remember vaguely now. I had no idea that there were legions and signets when I played this game!
What killed this game was a combination of complication, inactivity of everyone, and a general feeling of being lost. To make a game like this work, everyone has to push for it to work. A smaller number of players would DEFINITELY help here.
EDIT2: I also like how the game SB designed here and the game I played here seems like two completely different games.
Well, this game does certainly look complicated. I suppose if I had a role and i was in the game, not knowing anything else, it would make sense.
Pros: Interesting, flavorful, original mechanics
Cons: Too complicated for people to analyze what is going on(in a regular mafia game, you can guess what happened in a night if everyone speaks about what they did and you can fill in blanks. In this game, it would be very difficult to ascertain what is going on behind the scenes without an intimate knowledge of the setup). This might be why players gave up trying to figure it all out.
Thanks for the Pro's.
About the con's, believe it or not, that was entirely on purpose. I wanted the players to focus on EACH OTHER. Not the setup, not the roles, not the power interactions, and definitely not claims. In my opinion, players have come to rely on claims, setup analysis, and role powers too much to be truly effective town anymore. Its also kinda destroyed many scum talents as well as they've fallen into disuse.
Yes, setup analysis should be a viable method of determining the game; but lately its become quite the focus on game design analysis, and less about GAME PLAY analysis.
Just my feelings and some of the purpose behind the game.
I think if you simplified things, like got rid of extra stuff and just focused on the legions, or just on the signets, it would be much easier to understand for the average player.
EDIT: LOL i just realized I replaced into this game! I can't for the life of me remember how it went...one sec...
*moments later"
Ok I remember vaguely now. I had no idea that there were legions and signets when I played this game!
That was on purpose. The legions were supposed to be a sub-mechanic purely for use by the mod in order to make the games mechanics flow.
The central cog if you would. Signets... alotta reviewers felt the same way. I ignored them to see how they'd play. So much for that -_-;
What killed this game was a combination of complication, inactivity of everyone, and a general feeling of being lost. To make a game like this work, everyone has to push for it to work. A smaller number of players would DEFINITELY help here.
EDIT2: I also like how the game SB designed here and the game I played here seems like two completely different games.
I agree. There were probably a few too many people. 20 woulda worked better.
As for edit2: Might be because *I* wasnt the one running it
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
About the con's, believe it or not, that was entirely on purpose. I wanted the players to focus on EACH OTHER. Not the setup, not the roles, not the power interactions, and definitely not claims. In my opinion, players have come to rely on claims, setup analysis, and role powers too much to be truly effective town anymore. Its also kinda destroyed many scum talents as well as they've fallen into disuse.
One need only look at Azrael's Inheritance Mafia to realize that a convoluted setup only makes the players try to understand what's going on MORE.
Azrael tried to do Inheritamce v2 (see Islander Mafia in my sig, and lol, I was the doc in that one too), and even though he dropped the "Inheritance" mechanic from the game, the first 500 or so posts were all setup speculation.
That alone is enough to make people get headaches and not want to play.
Also, as a townie, it becomes painfully obvious who is town just by finding the "honest confusion" posts among the "fake confusion" posts.
If players understand what's going on, they'll minimize setup speculation and focus on behavioral analysis.
The thing I love about this game is that there's, like, very few "normal" roles in the whole game! I wish I was creative enough to create something like this! :sad:
LOVE the perma watcher and tracker concept.
The Gambler is incredibly interesting and shocking.
The Battlefield Leech - quite intriguing. I especially like that, if player with this role is turned mafia, they still have to doctor twice to kill someone.
Aaaah, Mafia Jester. I love it. I want to create a game with a Jester, but have been told by several people it's a "dick move" hahaha.
Battlefield Executioner - this is a town role? Makes it even more evil, mwahahaha. I it.
The Assassin, I like, too. Only gets to kill if the player they choose performed an action the night before.
I think I've seen the poisoner somewhere else (LOTR II maybe?) but I liked it then and I like it now.
The Senatorial Bodyguard I love. Making a townie lie. Wait, no, I don't like that at all. I'm of the frame of mind that townies should never lie. Hmm, so maybe I do like this, hahaha. I'm torn!
The modified redirector is an amazing stroke of brilliance. Favors. Fits the flavor soooo well.
Oooh, I like the gunsmith! An interesting investigative role. Maybe not very powerful, but interesting, and it could work out like a charm!
Ah, yes, the Soldiers Heart Soldier. Most definitely worse than vanilla, haha. An interesting concept, too.
I like the Imposter Senator, as well.
As for the mechanics, I like how complex you made them. Of course, this is easy to say since I wasn't in the game, haha, but still... Making the players concentrate on analysis over game/flavor modding is brilliant. You should definitely figure out a way to reuse the legions aspect of the mechanics.
The signets, meh. I'm indifferent of them.
All in all, a very interesting game and I wish it would have played out for you.
Basically I think this game was just way to overcomplicated. When there is so much going on it causes the players to have a sort of sensory overload and can greatly reduce the towns focus, which should always firstly be scum hunting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Me and abbey spent about a month or two fleshing out mechanics, then 2-3 days of solid writing making the role pm's. Some of them were great, others... less so. (The vanilla in specific got hosed)
For the flavor pm's, i recruited different people to write them in the hopes of giving each character a unique feel.
The neutrals were given to those who greatly assisted (DYH, Azrael, uh... someone else who i sincerely apologize to for forgetting. I think Pod) the mafia was given to someone as well i think.
Me and abbey took turns designing the flavor roles, with the aim of giving each legion a unique feel.
Basically I think this game was just way to overcomplicated. When there is so much going on it causes the players to have a sort of sensory overload and can greatly reduce the towns focus, which should always firstly be scum hunting.
From now on, its going to be a big HUGE ASS RULE on any further games:
THIS IS A STORMBLIND GAME. DO NOT TRY TO ANALYZE IT. ANALYZE EACH OTHER.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
If we aren't supposed to analyse the game state, then what the hell is the point of putting it there?
Well, the fact that most of the mechanics i have run have fundamentally altered the way that games of mafia play out. Doomsday did, due to the lack of a standard mafia mechanic.
Britannia would have i truly believe.
As will Highlander potentially (Its got alot of unrealized potential).
Its what i aim to do, provide a new experience; unfortunately, alot of players DO get hung up on traditional mafia mechanics, and refuse to open their minds to new concepts. Its why im trying and trying again.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Well, the fact that most of the mechanics i have run have fundamentally altered the way that games of mafia play out. Doomsday did, due to the lack of a standard mafia mechanic.
Britannia would have i truly believe.
As will Highlander potentially (Its got alot of unrealized potential).
Its what i aim to do, provide a new experience; unfortunately, alot of players DO get hung up on traditional mafia mechanics, and refuse to open their minds to new concepts. Its why im trying and trying again.
Innovation != complication. That seems to be the disconnect. I mean you can certainly make an innovative game without having so much going on that the groups have to spend more time figuring out whats going on than actually playing the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Innovation != complication. That seems to be the disconnect. I mean you can certainly make an innovative game without having so much going on that the groups have to spend more time figuring out whats going on than actually playing the game.
True to a degree. But you often cannot change the heart of mafia without leaving the players questioning everything.
In this game, the mafia selection mechanic, and the legion information mechanic basically changed the heart of thhe MAFIA mafia, and the targetting mechanics of a realm.
Hm, I dunno. Ill have to think on it. Thinking something simpler for the next game tho.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
True to a degree. But you often cannot change the heart of mafia without leaving the players questioning everything.
In this game, the mafia selection mechanic, and the legion information mechanic basically changed the heart of thhe MAFIA mafia, and the targetting mechanics of a realm.
Hm, I dunno. Ill have to think on it. Thinking something simpler for the next game tho.
Oh I totally loved the idea of the mafia picking themselves, but with so many other things plus the complication of the roles, it was just to much.
IMO if you are going to have crazy whacky gameplay mechanics, the roles should be on the simpler side, and vice versa. This isn't a concrete law I think should be followed, but definatly a good guideline per say.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
From now on, its going to be a big HUGE ASS RULE on any further games:
THIS IS A STORMBLIND GAME. DO NOT TRY TO ANALYZE IT. ANALYZE EACH OTHER.
True to a degree. But you often cannot change the heart of mafia without leaving the players questioning everything.
The best solution to this I've found is simply to put a larger amount of information about the game's workings into the public sphere. When the town/mafia has the information they need to work the mechanics readily available, they can concentrate on maximizing their abilities and reading behavior, instead of speculating about the setup.
That's one of the reasons I like your current idea, by the way. Its a fairly transparent mechanic, so its more strategically workable by both parties.
Surprises should come from individuals' roles and play: not from the universal mechanics of the game.
I still am having problems understanding how a lot of the legioned personnel could only target certain legions. What would happen if they went for someone outside the allowed? Were they told up-front that they could only target half of the players?
Like kpaca said, the mafia picking themselves was a great mechanic. I'd like to see another game using just that and standard roles and see how it goes!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Eh, yes, I'm not terribly surprised at that having tripped me up. I was genuinely frustrated at the existence of a PR that could be twisted into pseudo-clearance (because despite RafK's sensible reservations, it was obvious that the existence of the PR swung opinions completely around, and caused people to think of Zionite as cleared).
I think that kind of contributed to my lack of motivation, really.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Now, i've found the game's setup, and would like to get some discussion on this preferably, as its got some interesting roles and mechanics i'd love to get some feedback on for future use.
Without further adieu, the setup.
Legion 1.:
Cav Scout - Perma-Watcher (2Pt T / 2.5 Pt M) (can target 1/2/3), Night
1: Declares a suspect of interest. From that point forward, the scout
watches that person until their death, gaining the watching
information for ALL day and night actions the player takes. Declares a
new target upon old targets death.
Cav Scout - Perma-Tracker (2 pt T, 2.5 Pt M)(Can target 1/4/5), Night
1: Declares a suspect of interest. From that point forward, the scout
tracks that person until their death, gaining the tracking information
for ALL day and night actions the player takes. Declares a new target
upon old targets death.
Hippodrome Rider – Vanilla (1/1). (Becomes untargettable until he
loses the signet.) Signet can still be stolen.
Shock Trooper - Gambler (1 / 1): Can bet his LIFE that the person he
targets is allied with him. As such, he forms a lover-type
relationship with the target. If the target dies, the gamblers debt
collectors come to kill him. He gains the non-faction abilities his
lover has, but maintains a townie win condition. has no effect upon
the lover if he survives
Legion #2:
Battle Medic - Day Doc (1T / 1M)(Target 2/1/5) - doctors during the
day (Day/ night doc with signet)
Battlefield Leech – Leech (2T/3M) (Targets 2/3/4) -
Natrona Harkabi - Masada Rebellion Descendant
District: Palastina, Aelia Capitolina
Ancestry: Jewish
Profession: Forcefully Recruited Battlefield Leech
“Join Ferrata or face the gallows.” Risk my life to protect the empire
I’ve spent my life hating or die. A choice that isn’t a choice. If I
die now, I orphan my children, I Widow my wife. So, regretfully, I don
the Red. I attend training, learn how to wield the Gladius, learn the
Phalanx. I become a finely honed machine, working with men I cannot
stand. Some who willingly joined to protect their nation. End of the
first month, I met Valens. Son of a Gladiator, he believed in Rome,
believed in what it stood for. An idealistic fool, he got injured
quite badly during a training mission against the Goth of Moesia
Inferior. The idiocy of youth believing yourself invincible. Midfield,
as rookie scuffs, we had nothing. No medical attaché, no field medic.
When they found out I had medical experience, they forced me to
operate. So I did. He cried as I separated his leg beneath the knee.
He screamed when I removed his left eye. He pleaded against the
leeches until they rendered him unconscious. He was barely a man when
I finished, but he survived. He got mustered out shortly after due to
his ‘ghastly disfigurement’s.’ Apparently, you need both legs to
fight.
I was put into their medical wing shortly after that. Apparently they
believed I did good work. “No one else could have saved that kid’s
life”, they kept telling me. I left a trail of crippled and the dead
across Rome. I saved their lives, I used what methods I had to use to
save them. Some were left blind, others armless, legless freaks. But I
saved them according to my oath.
Unfortunately, it seemed the more men I saved, the farther I got from
my beloved Judea; from my children and wife. I became one of the
disaffected. One of those jew’s who was sent from one end of the
empire to the next at the whims of my imperial masters. At long last I
ended up in Britannia. I learnt afterwards that this is where the
dissidents end up, where they were planning to send me all along,
based on something Hadrian said centuries ago, “Separate the Jew from
Judea and he shall wither.” ‘
My methods from there on out were effective, so effective that nearly
a third of my patients died. They quickly learnt to not leave a
subject in my tender care for long as they would likely not leave
alive. And even then, they only sent me those no one else could save,
for my methods were unquestionably effective at saving their lives.
The question always remained of, ‘What life could they lead after
this?’ This was not a question I asked myself. I simply didn’t care.
If they survived, they survived. If they died, they died. I tried to
save their lives, and if they suffered while I did so, all the better.
Harm saving a persons life is acceptable in my eyes.
Time settled and seemed to draw on abominably. My hair grayed, my
memories of beloved Judea faded. Eventually, all I was left of my life
was this… bitterness. This hatred to the Romans and their pets. And I
most appallingly am one of their pets. At long last, the Celts
attacked us. We took heavy casualties, and my services were called
into duty. Surely enough, we defeated them, but between my skills and
that of our enemy, but 18 of us were left in our area. All hale,
healthy men.
Let’s see if I can fix that.
Abilities: Each night, you may doctor a player, protecting them from
any potential night kills, but in doing so, you will leave them barely
on the edge of life, and unable to be subjected to another of your
“ministrations”. If you attempt to doctor a player a second time, they
will die. (You must doctor twice before killing them if you are mafia)
Win Conditions: Make the Romans suffer and eliminate the traitors ///
Eliminate the Roman scum.
|------------------------------
|Standard Bearer - Townie Lynch Protected Target (3T)- If targeted by
any mafia ability, the player has the option to Block the player
|targetting him and force him to use the mafia NK on him (Via the
player who targetted him intially). In addition to htis ability, the
|standard bearer has 2 shot lynch protection. (Possibly 1 depending on
the balance).
|
|Standard Bearer - Mafia Jester (1.5 pt M) - This is a standard jester
role. He has the mafia win condition (Control the lynch), and the
Jester |Win Condition: Get Lynched after day 1, but before day 5.
(Otherwise the player loses)
|------------------------------
Battlefield Executioner – Threshold Reducer (1 T / 3 M) - Whenever a
player is at L-1, this roles vote is automatically placed on the
target.
Legion #3:
Spy - Half-cop (Targets 1/3/5),
Assassin- Jelous Dayvig (Targets 2.3.4) - Once during the day may PM
me a player name. If the target used an ability the night before, the
target dies.
Poisoner - Stockpile Vig (Targets 1/5/3) - Each night, Poisons a
target and gives them a slowing agent at the same time. Each night, he
poisons a new target, and slows the poisons of all targets, new and
old. Upon his death, the poisons take effect, and all poisoned targets
die.
Senatorial Bodyguard - Liar : Must lie about every direct inquiry
directed towards him. Someone asks him his name, he must lie. Someone
asks for his justification for his vote, must lie. Alignment questions
are totally discretionary. ect.
Legion #4:
Imperial Speaker - RB (1/3/5).
Imperial Commissioner - Half Rolecop (can target 2/3/4)
QuarterMaster - Modified Redirector - (4/5/2) During each day, may
offer a player a bonus action that night in exchange for a favour
later on during the game. (Cannot be refused) When the favor is
called, the quarter master player does the following:
• Blocks Target
• Copies Targets Ability
• Directs Copy At Target Of His Choice.
These favors must not all be called upon at once, and may be
stockpiled. You may call upon multiple favours at once. Starts the
game with 1 owed favor from a player of his choice.
Legion #5:
Sharpshooter - Veto Maker (Can grant one person a day a vote reset),
Blacksmith - Gunsmith (Can target 1.3.5), Each night, the blacksmith
visits a target under the pretense of weapon maintainence. He can
check the weaponry for nicks or signs of combat use since the game has
begun. Learns if the target has killed thusfar this game.
Soldiers Heart Soldier - Worse the Vanilla: Votes made against the SHS
persist for the rest of the game. At the end of each day, the amount
of active votes on him disipate by half. I.e. 4 becomes 2, 1 becomes
2, 2 becomes 1. Ect ect.
Non-Legioned:
Governor: Each Night, he may research a players legion. He may choose
to send a PM to that player telling them their legion.
Imposter Senator: Gains abilities based on amount of imperial signets
possessed.
• 1 signet = Veto. (Resets the vote count)
• 2 signets = 1 NK protection
• 3 Signets = Daykill / Rob
• 4 Signet = 1 Shot Hide ability (night activated)
• 5 Signets = Win.
Gladiator. SK variant. Each hammer he commits grants him an additional
vote only usable one time. At night, he may try to GUESS the player
who is going to be NK'd. He will essentially block the NK, then kill
the target anyway. This would grant him an additional Temporary Vote.
Win condition: Have enough temporary votes to control the lynch for
the rest of the game.
Legion 6:
Traitor General - Mafia Captain - Gains the mafia version of abilities
for the first player NK'd.
Alcoholic Soldier - May vote twice every odd day. May only vote once
on even days. (Becomes 2 votes EVERY day when signetted)
Vanilla - Totally Vanilla (Signet ability: Godfather)
Reply
Reply to all
Forward
Reply
ken jones to Lee, mjpoplas
show details May 13
New Role PM:
Asiaticus Ouaknin – Libyan Shock Trooper
District: Libya Superior, Cyrene
Ancestry: Berber
Profession: Corpse Robber / Gambler.
It’s a hard place, Libya. After the silphium dried up, Cyrene went
dead, and many of the more prosperous townships in Libya followed suit
shortly after. As I said, Libya is a hard place, few natural
resources, little in the way of civilization. So when the Imperial
Recruiters rumbled through, looking for new soldiers to defend Rome, I
leapt at the chance. Escape from the drudgery and misery, a chance to
make solid roman gold, a chance to perhaps bed a roman woman, take her
as wife, become a citizen. The dream of all us scuffs. Advancement in
the world doesn’t come easy, and hard places breed hard men, so early
on, my ability to break a mans will, to bend him to my desires and
needs became evident. After intimidating my commander for a third
time, the embarrassed leadership core decided I would be best placed
on the front line, wherein my fear inspiring nature could perhaps be
put to good use, and if not, a quick death for someone who had so
shamed them. Unfortunately for them, I thrived at the front.
Men relate later how at the mere sight of my hulking, armored body,
many lesser men abandoned the field totally, and those who didn’t…
well, let’s just say that there’s some benefits to being the first on
the field. The hardest part about looting a mans corpse in the middle
of a battle is deciding how to spend it all. A quick hack of the
gladius and his hand came off, a slice of the hand and the fingers
separate. I often managed to do this during combat, which made things
better since it made looting faster. The faster I loot, the faster I
kill someone else and loot them. One would assume I would feel…
something over robbing a corpse, but it’s a pretty simple situation.
In Libya, you let nothing go to waste. Not food, not clothes, and
especially not jewelry, not when it can improve someone else’s life.
And by someone, I mean mine.
Unfortunately, as time passed, my commanders started to notice that
their shares were getting cut into. When they saw me one night
gambling with my… proceeds from the battle that day, suffice to say,
they weren’t terribly impressed. I got sent on riskier and riskier
assignments until I was sent into battle without reinforcements at
all. Myself against a knot of Thuringii, a fearful thought to any
warrior. The germanics were no real challenge though, and the gold
they supplied gave me money for gambling for 3 nights. Winning, and
losing alternatively, until I ran out. At that point, I just insulted
another group of Germanics and they provided me the gold for a few
more days of play.
After a while of this, the command thought my… skill set could be of
use in Britannia. The Celt’s were acting up, the Hibernian’s were
raiding occasionally, and the natives were getting restless, something
about wanting the Romans out of their isle. Whatever, their death will
provide the gold all the same…
Let’s Gamble With My Life.
Abilities: At any point during the game, using Bold, Underlined,
Italic, Orange font, you may declare someone Town. If you do so, you
gamble your life that that player is town. When you do so, you manage
to intimidate him enough that he will do anything you ask of him to
keep you happy, including teaching you his particular skillset that
grants him such distinction for being in Britannia. All flavor will be
your own, and when you die, your title will be “Asiaticus Ouaknin –
Gambler”. Once someone is declared town, you have made your bet, and
wagered your life. If your “Townie” partner dies, you lose all
abilities, and will die at the next vote count; debt collectors are
quite serious.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/
Abilities: At any point during the game, using Bold, Underlined,
Italic, Orange font, you may declare someone scum. If you do so, you
gamble your life that that player is scum. When you do so, you manage
to intimidate him enough that he will do anything you ask of him to
keep you happy, including teaching you his particular skillset that
grants him such distinction for being in Britannia. All flavor will be
your own, and when you die, your title will be “Asiaticus Ouaknin –
Gambler”. Once someone is declared scum, you have made your bet, and
wagered your life. If your “Scum” partner dies, you lose all
abilities, and will die at the next vote count; debt collectors are
quite serious.
Win Conditions: Rob the Celts Blind, and Protect Rome! /// Gather
enough gold to retire to Rome in comfort, rob the roman legions blind!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Some explanations of mechanics:
First, Legions.
Legions
Now, the reason the game died after i left was because few people truly understood how the legions mechanic truly worked. Here's the skinny, each legion was based on 2-4 players, usually 4. Each legion had a specially designed role: Support, investigative, ect.
Legions also provided the targetting ability for the game. A role like "Cav Scout - Perma-Watcher (2Pt T / 2.5 Pt M) (can target 1/2/3)" could target players from legion 1, legion 2, or legion 3. 4 and 5, as well as the non legioned were off limits. Its part of what gave the neutrals / non-legioned any chance at all to survive and win. it also allowed me to have a huge amount of powered players without them being terribly nerfed. The 2pt T / 2.5 pt M meant that for town, it was a 2 point role, and for mafia it was a 2.5. this helped to, in general, balance each legion against each other. I.e. having a legion with 4 players all worth the same amount or whatever the setup was.
The last thing legions were good for: They provided the recruitment method for the game. Ace was the Godfather, and sent me a listing of who he wanted. He would get his FIRST choice from each legion, and i purposely wouild fudge some legions to be more experienced then others. I.e. a legion of experienced players, a legion of noobs, ect. It allowed the mafia to get a good amount of experience as well as noobs. The best balance i could find; if not perfect.
Players didnt know their legions. That was a balancing mechanic.
Signets
Signets were given to certain roles at the start of the game (Like the vanillas) in the interest of them being useful (non vanilla), and other signets were randomly allocated, again based on legions. (1 signet per legion)
Signets would allow their wielders to target any players from any legions. This represented the favor of rome. This mechanic was also the win condition for a few roles: I.e. Senator imposter.
Upon a players death, if they had a signet, it would randomly be allocated to a player from their legion. If there were none, it would fall dead, and be out of the game for anyone who wasnt the imposter senator. The imposter senator could simply pick it up as it was his win con and it would be dickish to cause him to be unable to win.
Necro authorized for further discussion of this setup -Annorax
Im rambling. Lemme know your thoughts. Please
Pros: Interesting, flavorful, original mechanics
Cons: Too complicated for people to analyze what is going on(in a regular mafia game, you can guess what happened in a night if everyone speaks about what they did and you can fill in blanks. In this game, it would be very difficult to ascertain what is going on behind the scenes without an intimate knowledge of the setup). This might be why players gave up trying to figure it all out.
I think if you simplified things, like got rid of extra stuff and just focused on the legions, or just on the signets, it would be much easier to understand for the average player.
EDIT: LOL i just realized I replaced into this game! I can't for the life of me remember how it went...one sec...
*moments later"
Ok I remember vaguely now. I had no idea that there were legions and signets when I played this game!
What killed this game was a combination of complication, inactivity of everyone, and a general feeling of being lost. To make a game like this work, everyone has to push for it to work. A smaller number of players would DEFINITELY help here.
EDIT2: I also like how the game SB designed here and the game I played here seems like two completely different games.
Thanks for the Pro's.
About the con's, believe it or not, that was entirely on purpose. I wanted the players to focus on EACH OTHER. Not the setup, not the roles, not the power interactions, and definitely not claims. In my opinion, players have come to rely on claims, setup analysis, and role powers too much to be truly effective town anymore. Its also kinda destroyed many scum talents as well as they've fallen into disuse.
Yes, setup analysis should be a viable method of determining the game; but lately its become quite the focus on game design analysis, and less about GAME PLAY analysis.
Just my feelings and some of the purpose behind the game.
That was on purpose. The legions were supposed to be a sub-mechanic purely for use by the mod in order to make the games mechanics flow.
The central cog if you would. Signets... alotta reviewers felt the same way. I ignored them to see how they'd play. So much for that -_-;
I agree. There were probably a few too many people. 20 woulda worked better.
As for edit2: Might be because *I* wasnt the one running it
One need only look at Azrael's Inheritance Mafia to realize that a convoluted setup only makes the players try to understand what's going on MORE.
Azrael tried to do Inheritamce v2 (see Islander Mafia in my sig, and lol, I was the doc in that one too), and even though he dropped the "Inheritance" mechanic from the game, the first 500 or so posts were all setup speculation.
That alone is enough to make people get headaches and not want to play.
Also, as a townie, it becomes painfully obvious who is town just by finding the "honest confusion" posts among the "fake confusion" posts.
If players understand what's going on, they'll minimize setup speculation and focus on behavioral analysis.
LOVE the perma watcher and tracker concept.
The Gambler is incredibly interesting and shocking.
The Battlefield Leech - quite intriguing. I especially like that, if player with this role is turned mafia, they still have to doctor twice to kill someone.
Aaaah, Mafia Jester. I love it. I want to create a game with a Jester, but have been told by several people it's a "dick move" hahaha.
Battlefield Executioner - this is a town role? Makes it even more evil, mwahahaha. I it.
The Assassin, I like, too. Only gets to kill if the player they choose performed an action the night before.
I think I've seen the poisoner somewhere else (LOTR II maybe?) but I liked it then and I like it now.
The Senatorial Bodyguard I love. Making a townie lie. Wait, no, I don't like that at all. I'm of the frame of mind that townies should never lie. Hmm, so maybe I do like this, hahaha. I'm torn!
The modified redirector is an amazing stroke of brilliance. Favors. Fits the flavor soooo well.
Oooh, I like the gunsmith! An interesting investigative role. Maybe not very powerful, but interesting, and it could work out like a charm!
Ah, yes, the Soldiers Heart Soldier. Most definitely worse than vanilla, haha. An interesting concept, too.
I like the Imposter Senator, as well.
As for the mechanics, I like how complex you made them. Of course, this is easy to say since I wasn't in the game, haha, but still... Making the players concentrate on analysis over game/flavor modding is brilliant. You should definitely figure out a way to reuse the legions aspect of the mechanics.
The signets, meh. I'm indifferent of them.
All in all, a very interesting game and I wish it would have played out for you.
How long did you spend creating this game anyway?
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Me and abbey spent about a month or two fleshing out mechanics, then 2-3 days of solid writing making the role pm's. Some of them were great, others... less so. (The vanilla in specific got hosed)
For the flavor pm's, i recruited different people to write them in the hopes of giving each character a unique feel.
The neutrals were given to those who greatly assisted (DYH, Azrael, uh... someone else who i sincerely apologize to for forgetting. I think Pod) the mafia was given to someone as well i think.
Me and abbey took turns designing the flavor roles, with the aim of giving each legion a unique feel.
From now on, its going to be a big HUGE ASS RULE on any further games:
THIS IS A STORMBLIND GAME. DO NOT TRY TO ANALYZE IT. ANALYZE EACH OTHER.
If we aren't supposed to analyse the game state, then what the hell is the point of putting it there?
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Well, the fact that most of the mechanics i have run have fundamentally altered the way that games of mafia play out. Doomsday did, due to the lack of a standard mafia mechanic.
Britannia would have i truly believe.
As will Highlander potentially (Its got alot of unrealized potential).
Its what i aim to do, provide a new experience; unfortunately, alot of players DO get hung up on traditional mafia mechanics, and refuse to open their minds to new concepts. Its why im trying and trying again.
Innovation != complication. That seems to be the disconnect. I mean you can certainly make an innovative game without having so much going on that the groups have to spend more time figuring out whats going on than actually playing the game.
True to a degree. But you often cannot change the heart of mafia without leaving the players questioning everything.
In this game, the mafia selection mechanic, and the legion information mechanic basically changed the heart of thhe MAFIA mafia, and the targetting mechanics of a realm.
Hm, I dunno. Ill have to think on it. Thinking something simpler for the next game tho.
Oh I totally loved the idea of the mafia picking themselves, but with so many other things plus the complication of the roles, it was just to much.
IMO if you are going to have crazy whacky gameplay mechanics, the roles should be on the simpler side, and vice versa. This isn't a concrete law I think should be followed, but definatly a good guideline per say.
The best solution to this I've found is simply to put a larger amount of information about the game's workings into the public sphere. When the town/mafia has the information they need to work the mechanics readily available, they can concentrate on maximizing their abilities and reading behavior, instead of speculating about the setup.
That's one of the reasons I like your current idea, by the way. Its a fairly transparent mechanic, so its more strategically workable by both parties.
Surprises should come from individuals' roles and play: not from the universal mechanics of the game.