Please elaborate, Ace. What fence am I straddling, sir?
I was simply mocking you on how you were fence-sitting on whether TMT attacked Cantrip or defended him, and as such it's ironic since TMT was fence-sitting himself.
On top of the various other accusations against him, it feels like he has been trying too hard to be on the NA wagon.
His last post is fairly inconsistent. In one response to Roja, he accuses him of trying to goad NA into speculating on power roles. But then he immediately barns him and levies it into a reason for voting NA. Of course, it's a terrible reason. If NA was 'level-headed enough to realize that his play would draw attention', do you really think he would make that play as newb scum to begin with? I really, really doubt it.
Roja asked what was bad with his posting. I was pointing out what I saw. That doesn't mean that I don't agree with Roja's views on NA, which complement a number of other views that have been posted. Roja's was just the last one in a string of what I felt were good points against NA.
If NA truly is noob scum, I could imagine him thinking that a "reason" from a previous game would be good enough reason to vote someone in this one. If so, the question that remains in my mind is why he so quickly recanted. If he was going to use that ploy, he should have stuck to his guns for longer than one rebuttal.
Nix, I've survived to endgame in every game I've played so far. But I nearly lost the game for the town in Rogue Squadron by being overanalytical. Still some of the noob anxiousness, I suppose. But since I'm playing with hardcore posters, now, I'd better straighten up and fly right. And get drunk, apparently.
Must've just been a wagon I remembered and not a lynch.
I was simply mocking you on how you were fence-sitting on whether TMT attacked Cantrip or defended him, and as such it's ironic since TMT was fence-sitting himself.
Hardly fence-sitting. Fence-sitting would have been something like "Yeah I agree he's acting scummy, but I kinda feel like he's not scum". What I said was "I don't agree that he's acting scummy, his play reminds me of a game where he wasn't scum".
When asked "What's your game?" you responded that Magic and Bridge were your games. I was curious what Bridge convention you used: SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card) or Precision.
EBWODP: Wait, you meant fence-sitting about SK didn't you? That's still not fence-sitting either. I agreed that SK's play was bad so far, but that I felt AE's was worse.
Well, the first two times I posted it it wasn't a joke, but I posted it the third time because Wuffles got flustered (in a non-scum tell sort of way) the first time he responded to it.
When asked "What's your game?" you responded that Magic and Bridge were your games. I was curious what Bridge convention you used: SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card) or Precision.
I play super casually, so I don't know what the system I use is called. It's based on the [A = 4 pts, K = 3, Q = 2, etc] system, then diverges out into gut when I don't know what the conventions are for strange hands.
First off I do not believe in Newbness being an excuse for actions on the basis that it is WIFOM. Instead I look at the level of experience and try to look at it from that point of view. And doing that, even with NA's forced excuse, I don't see it as a move an inexperienced town would do.
I disagree, I definitely can see an inexperienced townie do something like this, especially if they've seen something they deem to be similar done by scum.
It seems too opportunistic and less oh I saw this before and I know what happened last time.
It seems more, "I'm the triumphant noob scum catcher, all these mafia vets are being fooled by this easy trick! I won't be fooled again", than anything to me.
For one we had to force NA's reasoning out of him and before that he was making jokes about it. If he really was newb town as everybody is claiming with the vote on WoD he would have provided his reasoning with his vote instead of just voting and saying that he voted for him for not wanting votes on him.
I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm putting myself in his shoes on this one and thinking back to my early days of Mafia. Someone comes out and posts in a very similar way to something that happened in my first game ever, and that person was scum. I would have probably voted for them, just to see what happens.
Basically what I am saying is that I think NA is still scum.
Basically what I'm saying is that I think that NA is being a noobtown.
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I'll reiterate here that I don't think NA is scum. I think he didn't expect his first vote to be harped upon so harshly by the others, in what was essentially the random-voting stage. And his explanation on it supported that.
1) This seems like the "safes" question to answer or point to defend. It seems like you are trying to cherry pick which parts of your wagon to defend against which never ends well.
2) The answer also sounds very forced to me. "I am a miller" and "Don't vote for me" really are worlds apart.
Elaborate more. I don't really understand the counter points you're trying to make against NA. The reasons you gave seem really general and vague?
No, like I said, it seemed odd. Since I've been instructed that good play is to notice discrepancies and comment on them/question them, I did so.
I didn't feel like I was mocking in tone, and I enjoy keeping independent vote counts; check my other games (they're in my Shed-o-matic).
Never having played with you before, I don't know what your normal game is. But I would never penalize someone for playing their normal game. Unless you're nomally scum.
I don't really understand your question. Where did I say or imply that?
Someone needs to state the obvious; Guardman's here. (Ba-dump'ch! My apologies, Guardman; I admit that was a cheap shot.) Actually, there've been many times when someone pointed out a post that was obvious to them and I did a double-take because I didn't see it from their point of view. If I see something that I find odd, don't I owe it to the town to highlight it?
I don't understand your explanations? You are assuming that my request for the hammer vote disallows me from voting unless it's for said hammer vote itself? That's the only reason I could think of for you seeing a discrepancy in my opening post. That's why you see it as odd, right? Now, why would you make such an assumption?
See? This is exactly the kind of observation I'm talking about. I read WoD's response and thought it made sense, but seeing Cyan's sensible dissection of the situation makes me feel like a total noob (instead of just barely not-a-noob), because with those elements highlighted, WoD's actions do feel suspicious.
When I try to be insightful, I get "Stop fishing, TripUsUpMancer!"
This post came across as trying to excuse a previous behavior based on inexperience. In other words, trying to play the newb card.
My initial reaction to the NA bit was to think it scummy, but giving it some more thought I can't see a scum, even newb scum, doing something that would so obviously draw that much attention. It was definitely a bad vote, but I'm willing to give him a pass for now.
Not sold on Cantripmancer. Feels like he's trying too hard to be analytical, and comes off looking like he's fishing. Didn't he get mislynched in one of his first games over something very similar? (I haven't played with him, but I recall reading one of the games he was in).
I'm not liking AE. Jumps on the NA wagon, tries immediately to tie in SK as a scum buddy with a shakey misdirection accusation, and unvotes NA with a simple "I find his responses satisfactory" as soon as the wagon loses momentum.
SK's fence-sitting is noteworthy too, but not so much to make me vote him over AE.
Vote Archmage Eternal
My first impression is that you're Cantrip's scumbuddy. I dunno. You excused NA based on the hindsight that a newb scum wouldn't do what he did, which seem a really weird and WIFOMy reasoning to let someone off the hook. That, and your subtle defense of Cantrip by vaguely quoting a previous game.
Damnit, im agreeing with Guardman... I feel that NA got his hands caught in the cookie jar and has played the noob card to get out of the crosshairs. Something I tried to do with I was scum in Danger City. (Establish meta in another game where I was town and act the same here.)
Did NA play the newb card? Where and how? (I take offense to the term noob) I only recalled Cantrip doing so.
If anything, I would say that just 'trying to get the hammer down without saying anything' is the far less trustworthy of the two routes. It is always really obvious when you do so, it almost never works, and people always notice.
I don't understand your explanations? You are assuming that my request for the hammer vote disallows me from voting unless it's for said hammer vote itself? That's the only reason I could think of for you seeing a discrepancy in my opening post. That's why you see it as odd, right? Now, why would you make such an assumption?
No, obviously you're not restricted from voting unless it's the hammer, but if you want to hammer, why would you vote any other time? Why not indicate your vote preference and wait until the hammer was ready to actually vote? Not that I seriously think this would come up, but what if you had been afk when the person you voted for did something scummy and everyone else had voted him to lynch? I know I would be afraid of that occurring if I had a reason for achieving the hammer.
Quote from Dagger »
This post came across as trying to excuse a previous behavior based on inexperience. In other words, trying to play the newb card.
I can see how it could be interpreted it that way, although that certainly wasn't my intent.
It really seems like you're trying too hard to make a point that doesn't actually matter.
This is a typical newb-scum mistake.
If that was directed at me, please note: I'm not a total newb-scum. Now, one game a scum-master does not make, nor does one game provide ample opportunity for comparison, but feel free to do a complete read-thru of that or my other two (town) games to see when I try too hard: when I'm town or when I'm scum.
Hmmm, the speed at which Cantripmancer committed to voting NA does not seem cantripesque in the slightest. I'd like to vote Cantripmancer, but I think I'll reread the two games we played together first. In one he was scum, the other town, so I think it will be a good exercise.
Also, unvote.
Sorry about that Ged. Course I might vote you later and all.
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Roja asked what was bad with his posting. I was pointing out what I saw. That doesn't mean that I don't agree with Roja's views on NA, which complement a number of other views that have been posted. Roja's was just the last one in a string of what I felt were good points against NA.
If NA truly is noob scum, I could imagine him thinking that a "reason" from a previous game would be good enough reason to vote someone in this one. If so, the question that remains in my mind is why he so quickly recanted. If he was going to use that ploy, he should have stuck to his guns for longer than one rebuttal.
This point I bring up only because of my experiance, have you had something like that before?
Also I don't see the problem in asking NA about what he thinks about WoD. I Still want him to answer what he thinks about WoD.
I disagree, I definitely can see an inexperienced townie do something like this, especially if they've seen something they deem to be similar done by scum.It seems more, "I'm the triumphant noob scum catcher, all these mafia vets are being fooled by this easy trick! I won't be fooled again", than anything to me.I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. I'm putting myself in his shoes on this one and thinking back to my early days of Mafia. Someone comes out and posts in a very similar way to something that happened in my first game ever, and that person was scum. I would have probably voted for them, just to see what happens.
Basically what I'm saying is that I think that NA is being a noobtown.
Wait so you are saying you would have acted the same way as NA and voted for someone as oppose to asking them "why should we not vote for you?" ?
Did NA play the newb card? Where and how? (I take offense to the term noob) I only recalled Cantrip doing so.
NA's post 146. Where he states he has only completed 1 newb game and had to be replaced out of a game where a player lied to the group. I took it as "im a newb".
You are talking about making sure he is hammering?
If so wasen't Emo part of a game when he was scum and could only hammer? Not saying that it makes Dagger scum, however I wouldn't consider it BIG PRO town points for him.
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I also do not like the fact that he missed the question Kpaca asked. (To make some random joke post.) It doesn't seem right
What do you really want me to say to this. This is the second time someone pointed this out..... I did not see the post. I answered it when it was pointed out to me.
Outside of that, there really isn't a whole lot more I can say to defend myself. Every answer I've given has been labeled as 'forced' or just plain ********...
I voted him because it looked suspicious and I didn't think there would be a whole lot of consequence to a vote during the random phase. I unvoted because it was still random voting and I was making a joke.
Wait so you are saying you would have acted the same way as NA and voted for someone as oppose to asking them "why should we not vote for you?"
If this were my second game and in my first game I had seen what NA had, I would have probably done the same thing.
In my current position, experience and thought process wise, I would not have voted for WoD, but done the more logical choice: asking why.
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I don't like that andelijah has decided the best way to attack me is via semantics. I type the way I speak and think. I'm not going to change that any time soon. I've explained my thoughts on NA to the best of my ability.
I currently feel that NA is noobtown who didn't realize (because it was never plainly stated) that there were game/role-related reasons why he shouldn't vote.
I also don't like the fact that "fence-sitting" is being used as the basis for damn near every case being made right now. Fence-sitting is not a scum tell until it is done repeatedly. People are allowed to be undecided on and issue. Its when they neglect to make any decision ever that it gets scummy. Its a lot like barning in that way. If I happen to agree with someone on an issue, I am not barning them. If I agree with them on *everything* then a case can be made that I'm barning. I'm starting to think we need a mafia dictionary thread/wiki entry. /rant
And cyan, nice work not answering my post. You've been playing mafia more than long enough that you should at least be able to concede when an argument is or is not a strawman.
Of course it's a strawman. You ignored every other point I made, and responded to the one part where you were right. That is the definition of a strawman.
I'm not saying that I (as a slightly more experienced player) didn't get that he was hinting at role related reasons for not wanting to be voted. I'm saying that he knew there are newer players in here and didn't just come out and say it.
11. Andelijah: Feeling a little suspicious. Discussion with RafK felt like it was a little too tangential, and not confident on his SK attack.
I am quite confident in my Shadow Knight attack, its just that he isn't posting nearly as prolifically as I am, and so the other half of my posts are on other subjects.
I also don't like the fact that "fence-sitting" is being used as the basis for damn near every case being made right now. Fence-sitting is not a scum tell until it is done repeatedly. People are allowed to be undecided on and issue. Its when they neglect to make any decision ever that it gets scummy. Its a lot like barning in that way. If I happen to agree with someone on an issue, I am not barning them. If I agree with them on *everything* then a case can be made that I'm barning. I'm starting to think we need a mafia dictionary thread/wiki entry. /rant
I should probably clarify then, its not being undecided that bothers me, but the fact that you stated you were both pro and con every issue at that stage of the game.
To explain:
Random voting:
Pro: You bothered to random vote despite the game having moved on (not that I care if people random vote in their first post, but considering:)
Con: You said you don't like to random vote. Great! Then why do it? There was plenty of real material available to discuss.
Night Archer Wagon:
Con: You disliked his wagon.
Pro: You (initially) liked his tells.
The only thing that was truly fence sitting was the comment about Ged and Cyan, but you follow that up by fishing for information from Ged.
Its not fishing if I ask someone for their reasons for doing something. We've had no night, so Ged obviously didn't use a night ability to investigate anyone. What did you think I was fishing for? I wanted his reasons for thinking Cyan was town and why he felt it was ok to put a target on his own or Cyan's back. As for everything else, there are always going to be pros and cons for every issue. I think you're seriously reaching here. I disliked the wagon on NA but as my first reaction to his vote was to vote him, I don't really fault those people who did vote him for that and won't be using that wagon as the sole basis of any case on anyone. I don't like random voting but participate for several reasons, including showing that I am participating in the game and reading along and to see how people react to things I do during that period. All in all, I'm usually going to state both sides of a case in my posts. The result of which is not fence sitting. For instance, you may be semi-noob town who is tunnel visioning on me or you may be semi-noob scum who thinks you can get what you think is a newer townie lynched (based on my post count). See? There is both a pro and a con for voting you. Now I'm going to
vote andelijah
because I think you are the best bet for scum right now. This vote may or may not move in the future depending on several factors.
So, your defense for fishing is convoluted speculation. Hmm.
"Convoluted"? It was the first idea (just one of several possible) that occurred to me, and sounds pretty straightforward as far as restrictions go.
Response to spoiler in spoiler:
Quote from Ced »
In all of these, you present your fishing as a by-product of an attentive town playstyle: that you question things and highlight issues that you find odd.
...
Your defense for appearing to push the wagon, despite claiming that you had concerns over its speed, is that you are a more conservative townie who allows things to develop on their own, rather than bring them up as soon as they appear.
See my point?
When defending yourself against one accusation, you present your playstyle as open and liable to question things. When you defend yourself against another point, you present your playstyle as more conservative, allowing things to unfold.
These two defenses are inconsistent. These are two opposite playstyles, and do not exist together easily. Yet you present yourself as having whichever one of them is convenient at the time.
I never said that I allow things to develop on their own; I highlight elements that I feel won't be immediately evident to everyone. Dagger's actions felt odd; I wanted to highlight that so that others could weigh in, and I was honestly surprised that no one else found it strange. The speed of NA's wagon, on the other hand, was of secondary concern because I felt it was obvious. My primary purpose was to note that I also found NA suspicious (hence the FOS) and highlight the number of votes he had garnered to ensure that he realized that he was under scrutiny. I see no conflict between the approach used in the two examples you give.
Even after your detailed explanation (thank you for being thorough), I don't understand why you're so set on me being scum. Part of me thinks that you're scum bulldogging, but I don't know how much of that is OMGUS, and besides, I have my other detractors, as you note in your list, so I've obviously made some mistakes, but (for what little it's worth) I can attest that they're well-intentioned and coming from a townie.
If this were my second game and in my first game I had seen what NA had, I would have probably done the same thing.
In my current position, experience and thought process wise, I would not have voted for WoD, but done the more logical choice: asking why.
Again, if I hadn't seen what felt like level-headedness in the game I played with NA, I'd buy this, but the snap decision on what seems like such a risky move (regardless of him being scum or town) is what's throwing me off.
I currently feel that NA is noobtown who didn't realize (because it was never plainly stated) that there were game/role-related reasons why he shouldn't vote.
This feels like a weak excuse; I waited until I had a few games under my belt and had read a lot more before signing up to play with the big boys. I find it hard to believe that NA would come in here that naive.
It's not like its difficult to unvote and revote later to hammer.
There have been games that I've read where town players were afk for a very short time, something developed quickly, and they returned to lament the lynch that they contributed to, citing evidence that they could have brought to light had the lynch waited just a bit (it even happened, to Bilbroxain, in Rogue Squadron). Again, I wouldn't normally think that would happen in the early hours of D1, but if I truly wanted to be the hammer, I wouldn't state that, then vote. However, since no one else finds Dagger's actions as strange, I'll chalk this one up to experience and know better before opening my big yap next time.
Its not fishing if I ask someone for their reasons for doing something. We've had no night, so Ged obviously didn't use a night ability to investigate anyone. What did you think I was fishing for? I wanted his reasons for thinking Cyan was town and why he felt it was ok to put a target on his own or Cyan's back.
If he doesn't have any real information, then he is hardly painting a target on anyone's back: it is his read. If he does have information, then you shouldn't be asking anyways.
All in all, I'm usually going to state both sides of a case in my posts. The result of which is not fence sitting.
I've already conceded its not fence sitting. I'm wondering why you need to take (or "state") both sides of every case. As scum, the explanation is easy: it allows you to go in both directions by keeping your options open.
As town...?
You're going to have to explain that one.
For instance, you may be semi-noob town who is tunnel visioning on me or you may be semi-noob scum who thinks you can get what you think is a newer townie lynched (based on my post count). See? There is both a pro and a con for voting you.
Having played close to 30 games, I wouldn't consider myself a semi-noob, and having known you to be draygn mage, who was already hosting games before I started playing, I wouldn't consider you to be a noob either.
because I think you are the best bet for scum right now. This vote may or may not move in the future depending on several factors.
Yea, that "options" point is not going away anytime soon.
He wasn't saying that he *feels/thinks* cyan is town he is flat out stating it as fact. I wanted a reason for the exact same reasons I would want a reason from someone for voting. If I came in here and said Cyan is scum without giving a reason, I would hope every player here would jump on me. The opposite is just as true.
I give the pros and cons because that is how I think. Before i vote someone or make any decision I weigh the pros and cons. I write them into the post because it shows what I took into account before making my decision. It also allows other people to point out something I might have missed, which could force me to rethink my position.
EBWODP- I concede you are not a noob and know that I am not one either. That in itself may make me reconsider my position on you.
Backpedal much? I don't know if it's just because you're not among mostly newbs like in Balloon Debate, but you're coming off as much less certain and commanding.
He wasn't saying that he *feels/thinks* cyan is town he is flat out stating it as fact. I wanted a reason for the exact same reasons I would want a reason from someone for voting. If I came in here and said Cyan is scum without giving a reason, I would hope every player here would jump on me. The opposite is just as true.
There are two options with this scenario:
1) It is just Ged's read. The question is justified, but Ged is not painting a target on anyone.
2) Ged has information. Ged is asking for it for himself and Cyan, but the question is unnecessary.
As I see it, the "Why" and the "painting a target" are incompatible. You and I have already said on several occasions that we think Night Archer is town, yet in this scenario, neither of us are attracting a kill in any way. Why is the situation with Ged any different?
I give the pros and cons because that is how I think. Before i vote someone or make any decision I weigh the pros and cons. I write them into the post because it shows what I took into account before making my decision. It also allows other people to point out something I might have missed, which could force me to rethink my position.
This might be true later in the game, but I can't imagine you were hoping people would change your mind on Night Archer, or even the Random Stage.
@ande- the certainty of his statement and the high profile way in which he did it is what paints the target. I'm never hoping someone changes my mind as I generally think I'm right, but it gives people the option of pointing out something I may have missed.
Ged, are you just being antagonistic for the fun of it? A sarcastic response aimed at what could be considered a legitimate statement only sidetracks the debate. If SK's point is bad, call him on it. If it's good, respond. You've identified yourself as unusual in some way; congrats. Continuing to be obtusely cryptic does the town little good.
FYI, due to the American holiday, I will likely be partaking of lots of brats, burgers, soda, and fireworks this weekend in places primarily without internet access, and may not be posting much. I will do what I can, but may not be able to muster much of a comprehensive response to anything until Monday.
Ged, are you just being antagonistic for the fun of it? A sarcastic response aimed at what could be considered a legitimate statement only sidetracks the debate. If SK's point is bad, call him on it. If it's good, respond. You've identified yourself as unusual in some way; congrats. Continuing to be obtusely cryptic does the town little good.
Hail chamber!
You do have a point - I haven't been speaking my mind much. Part of this is because I like to save explaining myself for down the line to see how others react to the situation. Rest assured that I keep time stamped reasons for everything I do in a safety deposit box down at the bank. Still, it may be prudent to get some more thoughts of mine out on the table.
I have no read on SK or andelijah as of yet. Andelijah always reads the same to me, except when he lurks (actively or not). Then he's scum.
Based purely on his posts and not on anything I may or may not otherwise know, Cyan is playing like his usual town self. Most of the time it's clear pretty early when he's scum, so unless he's been getting better at faking his townie play-style I'm confident in his towniness.
Wuffles_II looks town to me for much the same reason as Cyan - he's playing like his town self instead of his often easy to spot mafia self. It's worth noting that his SK play is very hard to spot, though.
I obviously don't think highly of Cantripmancer since I'm voting him. My initial vote was based heavily on the fact that he went after Dagger for something odd. I believe one of the main differences between the town and scum thought process is that townies look for scummy things while scum look for "odd" / out of the ordinary things that they can pressure people for. Then ced385 pointing out that he's claiming to have two different contradictory play styles just makes me feel worse about him. Cyan had some points here that go even further.
I haven't got much of a read on anyone else yet. NA is worth keeping tabs on, but until he does something else I'm not willing to see him hang. Unless I consider his avoiding of questions to be "something else"...
CropCircles reads pretty much town to me, though it looks like he's taking his dicking around strategy even further than normal. Could be that he's doing that to cover up the fact that he's scum this game since it's normally pretty clear when he is.
I'd put ced395 as pretty solidly as well given his thoughtful analysis thus far.
I'd like to see more from TMT and RafaelK.
So to summarize, this is where I'm standing at the moment:
I'm not liking AE. Jumps on the NA wagon, tries immediately to tie in SK as a scum buddy with a shakey misdirection accusation, and unvotes NA with a simple "I find his responses satisfactory" as soon as the wagon loses momentum.
When he brought up the claim from another player from another game (ongoing, which I'm in) I saw where he was coming from.
You mean me with the 5th most posts in the thread?
I mean, on the one hand yes, I need to give my thoughts on the new developments in the thread (mostly concerning Cantripmancer) and will do so on a day I'm not at work and don't have the sniffles (bad combination for focus). Interested that you mentioned me specifically here, though.
I mean, on the one hand yes, I need to give my thoughts on the new developments in the thread (mostly concerning Cantripmancer) and will do so on a day I'm not at work and don't have the sniffles (bad combination for focus). Interested that you mentioned me specifically here, though.
I mentioned the people who I'm worried will turn out to be scum and dupe me in end game.
I was simply mocking you on how you were fence-sitting on whether TMT attacked Cantrip or defended him, and as such it's ironic since TMT was fence-sitting himself.
Roja asked what was bad with his posting. I was pointing out what I saw. That doesn't mean that I don't agree with Roja's views on NA, which complement a number of other views that have been posted. Roja's was just the last one in a string of what I felt were good points against NA.
If NA truly is noob scum, I could imagine him thinking that a "reason" from a previous game would be good enough reason to vote someone in this one. If so, the question that remains in my mind is why he so quickly recanted. If he was going to use that ploy, he should have stuck to his guns for longer than one rebuttal.
Must've just been a wagon I remembered and not a lynch.
Hardly fence-sitting. Fence-sitting would have been something like "Yeah I agree he's acting scummy, but I kinda feel like he's not scum". What I said was "I don't agree that he's acting scummy, his play reminds me of a game where he wasn't scum".
When asked "What's your game?" you responded that Magic and Bridge were your games. I was curious what Bridge convention you used: SAYC (Standard American Yellow Card) or Precision.
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
Well, the first two times I posted it it wasn't a joke, but I posted it the third time because Wuffles got flustered (in a non-scum tell sort of way) the first time he responded to it.
I play super casually, so I don't know what the system I use is called. It's based on the [A = 4 pts, K = 3, Q = 2, etc] system, then diverges out into gut when I don't know what the conventions are for strange hands.
Basically what I'm saying is that I think that NA is being a noobtown.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Elaborate more. I don't really understand the counter points you're trying to make against NA. The reasons you gave seem really general and vague?
I don't understand your explanations? You are assuming that my request for the hammer vote disallows me from voting unless it's for said hammer vote itself? That's the only reason I could think of for you seeing a discrepancy in my opening post. That's why you see it as odd, right? Now, why would you make such an assumption?
This post came across as trying to excuse a previous behavior based on inexperience. In other words, trying to play the newb card.
Suit yourself, really. I've indicated what I want to the town. It's up to them whether I get it.
My first impression is that you're Cantrip's scumbuddy. I dunno. You excused NA based on the hindsight that a newb scum wouldn't do what he did, which seem a really weird and WIFOMy reasoning to let someone off the hook. That, and your subtle defense of Cantrip by vaguely quoting a previous game.
Did NA play the newb card? Where and how? (I take offense to the term noob) I only recalled Cantrip doing so.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Dagger's request is a big pro-town point for him.
I can see how it could be interpreted it that way, although that certainly wasn't my intent.
This is a typical newb-scum mistake.
If that was directed at me, please note: I'm not a total newb-scum. Now, one game a scum-master does not make, nor does one game provide ample opportunity for comparison, but feel free to do a complete read-thru of that or my other two (town) games to see when I try too hard: when I'm town or when I'm scum.
Also, unvote.
Sorry about that Ged. Course I might vote you later and all.
...
I don't even know how to respond to that. Except to say that I'm glad I'm voting you.
Oh yeah, I agree that Cyan is most likely town. OFC this has no bearing on Wuffles alignment.
This point I bring up only because of my experiance, have you had something like that before?
Also I don't see the problem in asking NA about what he thinks about WoD. I Still want him to answer what he thinks about WoD.
Wait so you are saying you would have acted the same way as NA and voted for someone as oppose to asking them "why should we not vote for you?" ?
NA's post 146. Where he states he has only completed 1 newb game and had to be replaced out of a game where a player lied to the group. I took it as "im a newb".
You are talking about making sure he is hammering?
If so wasen't Emo part of a game when he was scum and could only hammer? Not saying that it makes Dagger scum, however I wouldn't consider it BIG PRO town points for him.
When someone just puts out information like that, it should always afford them the benefit of the doubt.
Particularly in the case of someone like Dagger, who is simply not prone to any kind of dangerous play as scum.
I was sick and had to make up one of my finals. Content coming in due time.
What do you really want me to say to this. This is the second time someone pointed this out..... I did not see the post. I answered it when it was pointed out to me.
Outside of that, there really isn't a whole lot more I can say to defend myself. Every answer I've given has been labeled as 'forced' or just plain ********...
I voted him because it looked suspicious and I didn't think there would be a whole lot of consequence to a vote during the random phase. I unvoted because it was still random voting and I was making a joke.
In my current position, experience and thought process wise, I would not have voted for WoD, but done the more logical choice: asking why.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
I currently feel that NA is noobtown who didn't realize (because it was never plainly stated) that there were game/role-related reasons why he shouldn't vote.
I also don't like the fact that "fence-sitting" is being used as the basis for damn near every case being made right now. Fence-sitting is not a scum tell until it is done repeatedly. People are allowed to be undecided on and issue. Its when they neglect to make any decision ever that it gets scummy. Its a lot like barning in that way. If I happen to agree with someone on an issue, I am not barning them. If I agree with them on *everything* then a case can be made that I'm barning. I'm starting to think we need a mafia dictionary thread/wiki entry. /rant
How much "PLAINER" do you need it to be?
And cyan, nice work not answering my post. You've been playing mafia more than long enough that you should at least be able to concede when an argument is or is not a strawman.
Oh, I forgot the blatant OMGUS aspect of your vote, too. There's always that one.
I am quite confident in my Shadow Knight attack, its just that he isn't posting nearly as prolifically as I am, and so the other half of my posts are on other subjects.
I should probably clarify then, its not being undecided that bothers me, but the fact that you stated you were both pro and con every issue at that stage of the game.
To explain:
Random voting:
Pro: You bothered to random vote despite the game having moved on (not that I care if people random vote in their first post, but considering:)
Con: You said you don't like to random vote. Great! Then why do it? There was plenty of real material available to discuss.
Night Archer Wagon:
Con: You disliked his wagon.
Pro: You (initially) liked his tells.
The only thing that was truly fence sitting was the comment about Ged and Cyan, but you follow that up by fishing for information from Ged.
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Record: 3-2
Simpsons Mafia (Newbie) - Vanilla Mafia - Win
The Fiasco Corporation - Town Reporter - Loss
Doomsday Mafia - Mafia Roleblocker - Win
Battle Royale Mafia - Serial Daykiller - Loss
Danger City Mafia - Vanilla Town - Win
vote andelijah
because I think you are the best bet for scum right now. This vote may or may not move in the future depending on several factors.
@ced: I'm going to wait, but on your point, I disagree.
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last updated 03/23/11
I should've said "makes me feel even better about voting Cantripmancer".
Response to spoiler in spoiler:
This, however, made me laugh:
Again, if I hadn't seen what felt like level-headedness in the game I played with NA, I'd buy this, but the snap decision on what seems like such a risky move (regardless of him being scum or town) is what's throwing me off.
This feels like a weak excuse; I waited until I had a few games under my belt and had read a lot more before signing up to play with the big boys. I find it hard to believe that NA would come in here that naive.
There have been games that I've read where town players were afk for a very short time, something developed quickly, and they returned to lament the lynch that they contributed to, citing evidence that they could have brought to light had the lynch waited just a bit (it even happened, to Bilbroxain, in Rogue Squadron). Again, I wouldn't normally think that would happen in the early hours of D1, but if I truly wanted to be the hammer, I wouldn't state that, then vote. However, since no one else finds Dagger's actions as strange, I'll chalk this one up to experience and know better before opening my big yap next time.
I'm not feeling the scum vibes from andelijah, and your vote for him really feels more OMGUS than anything logic-based.
I've already conceded its not fence sitting. I'm wondering why you need to take (or "state") both sides of every case. As scum, the explanation is easy: it allows you to go in both directions by keeping your options open.
As town...?
You're going to have to explain that one.
Having played close to 30 games, I wouldn't consider myself a semi-noob, and having known you to be draygn mage, who was already hosting games before I started playing, I wouldn't consider you to be a noob either.
Yea, that "options" point is not going away anytime soon.
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I give the pros and cons because that is how I think. Before i vote someone or make any decision I weigh the pros and cons. I write them into the post because it shows what I took into account before making my decision. It also allows other people to point out something I might have missed, which could force me to rethink my position.
Backpedal much? I don't know if it's just because you're not among mostly newbs like in Balloon Debate, but you're coming off as much less certain and commanding.
1) It is just Ged's read. The question is justified, but Ged is not painting a target on anyone.
2) Ged has information. Ged is asking for it for himself and Cyan, but the question is unnecessary.
As I see it, the "Why" and the "painting a target" are incompatible. You and I have already said on several occasions that we think Night Archer is town, yet in this scenario, neither of us are attracting a kill in any way. Why is the situation with Ged any different?
This might be true later in the game, but I can't imagine you were hoping people would change your mind on Night Archer, or even the Random Stage.
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Only because you didn't underline and italicize your random statement of alignment.
@ande- the certainty of his statement and the high profile way in which he did it is what paints the target. I'm never hoping someone changes my mind as I generally think I'm right, but it gives people the option of pointing out something I may have missed.
FYI, due to the American holiday, I will likely be partaking of lots of brats, burgers, soda, and fireworks this weekend in places primarily without internet access, and may not be posting much. I will do what I can, but may not be able to muster much of a comprehensive response to anything until Monday.
Hail chamber!
You do have a point - I haven't been speaking my mind much. Part of this is because I like to save explaining myself for down the line to see how others react to the situation. Rest assured that I keep time stamped reasons for everything I do in a safety deposit box down at the bank. Still, it may be prudent to get some more thoughts of mine out on the table.
I have no read on SK or andelijah as of yet. Andelijah always reads the same to me, except when he lurks (actively or not). Then he's scum.
Based purely on his posts and not on anything I may or may not otherwise know, Cyan is playing like his usual town self. Most of the time it's clear pretty early when he's scum, so unless he's been getting better at faking his townie play-style I'm confident in his towniness.
Wuffles_II looks town to me for much the same reason as Cyan - he's playing like his town self instead of his often easy to spot mafia self. It's worth noting that his SK play is very hard to spot, though.
I obviously don't think highly of Cantripmancer since I'm voting him. My initial vote was based heavily on the fact that he went after Dagger for something odd. I believe one of the main differences between the town and scum thought process is that townies look for scummy things while scum look for "odd" / out of the ordinary things that they can pressure people for. Then ced385 pointing out that he's claiming to have two different contradictory play styles just makes me feel worse about him. Cyan had some points here that go even further.
I haven't got much of a read on anyone else yet. NA is worth keeping tabs on, but until he does something else I'm not willing to see him hang. Unless I consider his avoiding of questions to be "something else"...
CropCircles reads pretty much town to me, though it looks like he's taking his dicking around strategy even further than normal. Could be that he's doing that to cover up the fact that he's scum this game since it's normally pretty clear when he is.
I'd put ced395 as pretty solidly as well given his thoughtful analysis thus far.
I'd like to see more from TMT and RafaelK.
So to summarize, this is where I'm standing at the moment:
1. Rafk
2. Ace
3. Cyan
4. PaleMage
5. WoD
6. Dagger
7. NightArcher
8. The_mad_tapper
9. mystery meat of doom
10. Cantripmancer
11. Andelijah
12. Roja
13. SomeOne
14. Ged
15. Cropcircles
16. Shadowknight
17. Jobie
18. Emo_Pinata
19. Ced395
20. Guardman
21. Wuffles_II
22. Kpaca
23. Archmage_Eternal
24. Ecophagy
When he brought up the claim from another player from another game (ongoing, which I'm in) I saw where he was coming from.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
You mean me with the 5th most posts in the thread?
I mean, on the one hand yes, I need to give my thoughts on the new developments in the thread (mostly concerning Cantripmancer) and will do so on a day I'm not at work and don't have the sniffles (bad combination for focus). Interested that you mentioned me specifically here, though.
I mentioned the people who I'm worried will turn out to be scum and dupe me in end game.
Raf will say it is getting old.
I say it is why I was INVITED TO THID GAME.
Explain to me why SK aka DM is not lynchjed.,
He is more obviously scum, then I am so obviously of questiuonable sexuality.
YOU HAVE SEEN IT
Just tekll me we will lynch SK
[The Family]