I think a big part of your believability was the way khorney acted (that is to say, I would probably be the liar over you in the towns eye if one of us was lying). I really couldn't defend his actions AND the bigger thing was I believe we had 4 claimed cops day 1. 2 docs wouldn't have been much of a stretch at that point, amiright?
That's true, the bastard mod scenario really defied most people's expectations and we were able to play to this.
That's pretty funny. You guys seemed to give up on the idea of a second mafia after the cult was outed, whereas our group saw you guys dying and knew that a second group still had to be out there. What we didn't expect was 4 scum on each team. After day 2 there was only 1 NK a night, so we just assumed the team was Seppel, Taylor, and Jscolton. It wasn't until Rianalnn turned up dead (we sent in the kill on A_I) that it became clear that either there was one scum left on the other team, or Ria targetted Shalako and got killed.
My RB targets were as follows, if I remember correctly:
Night 1- Pale Mage
Night 2 - Arcadic (redirected to R_O)
Night 3 - Joboman
Night 4 - Lost_Profit (failed)
Night 5 - Arcadic
Night 6 - Guardman
Suffice to say, my Night 2 kill was Jscolton and Night 3 kill was Sepiriel.
Then at Night 3, I was told my kill failed due to Sepiriel being a kill-immune Godfather and I was in turn killed by Sepiriel. Fun~
At any rate, while I find my role and the game entertaining (thanks to Annorax for that! :)), it will be a long while before I sign up for another bastard game.
Suffice to say, my Night 2 kill was Jscolton and Night 3 kill was Sepiriel.
Then at Night 3, I was told my kill failed due to Sepiriel being a kill-immune Godfather and I was in turn killed by Sepiriel. Fun~
At any rate, while I find my role and the game entertaining (thanks to Annorax for that! :)), it will be a long while before I sign up for another bastard game.
its because you did not use a mistletoe dart XD.
This was the hilarious moment where at the last moment Cy went "No Sep needs to send the kill!!!!" so not only did we manage to evade the Tracker i also delivered sweet retribution to my would be killer :D.
Annorax one question though: was making me and Taylor the godfathers also part of the bastardy? or was that pure dumb luck?
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Then you proceeded to wing it for the rest of the game and survive. I was honestly surprised when other players kept being picked as the lynch over you. Very well done on that.
I was wondering when the town would pick up on there being two mafia families in the game.
Then you proceeded to wing it for the rest of the game and survive. I was honestly surprised when other players kept being picked as the lynch over you. Very well done on that.
I was wondering when the town would pick up on there being two mafia families in the game.
Im just incredibly lucky i got such an awesome team if i had had any other team i am sure i would have died the moment i botched the claim.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
This was the hilarious moment where at the last moment Cy went "No Sep needs to send the kill!!!!" so not only did we manage to evade the Tracker i also delivered sweet retribution to my would be killer :D.
Annorax one question though: was making me and Taylor the godfathers also part of the bastardy? or was that pure dumb luck?
Pure dumb luck.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
It was really obvious to me when I replaced in that there were 2 mafia teams...since I managed to replace into a team that had a living godfather and RBer when there was already one dead.
I could have sworn that within my first couple messages in mafia chat though, I said there should have been one more person on the other scum team though.
Also, I thought for sure that once jobo died and turned up town, that I would end up being the next target, considering my mason group consisted of the cult leader, and then the sane cop. I was praying that jobo would turn up scum so I could claim to be the safe person in the mason group.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
That is what happens when you don't trust two town Sane Cops.
And you kill both of them. Too many mafioso. I had slim chances of converting people. And I was already annoyed how the town was so retarded and trying to lynch me and Jobo instead of Seppel. Uh
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That is what happens when you don't trust two town Sane Cops.
And you kill both of them. Too many mafioso. I had slim chances of converting people. And I was already annoyed how the town was so retarded and trying to lynch me and Jobo instead of Seppel. Uh
In case you missed it, when you died all of your followers died to. So it would have been DOUBLE KILLS for a mafia team if you had recruited while people knew you where cult.
I was HOPING people would take you up on your offer so we could kill you in a night or two and get extra dead townsfolk.
Vezo, you still had 16 people you could recruit, so 2/3 of the game. But between you and jobo both coming out and claiming sane cop, it was a little too much to bear, especially with how bad the two of you bungled the claims.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Although I will strongly base the loss on our poor play, some things I think should be done to improve the game:
1) More consistency from the mod's side. Some examples:
Letting joboman use his ability after night ended. I have a feeling this was done only because you already knew he was roleblocked, but it is not a good precedent to set.
Giving different roleblock flavors. You told Arcadic that he was roleblocked, but you simply told joboman that his action failed. One of many reasons leading to his lynch.
I don't know about other players, but my results were highly inconsistent. The first two nights you simply told me how many players I redirected. The rest of the days I had to ask for my results. They were readily provided, but you should either give them all at the end night or just not at all.
2) This game was not actually very conducive to behavioral analysis.
Having multiple cops, even of questionable sanity, will lead to cop based play. The solution to forcing behavioral analysis is to remove cops altogether, not make their results questionable.
Having random cops *will* cause a mislynch. It was probably already too late by the time ours happened, but it is a virtue of the role.
Multiple mafias actually make behavioral analysis much harder. Links are made to dead mafia members, and clearances as well. With 2 mafias, the problem is the mafia can legitimately scumhunt.
3) A *lot* of killing roles that could have ended this game very quickly.
2 mafias by themselves tend to need at least a few crosskills for the town to have a chance - unfortunately didn't happen.
Vig, dayvig, CPR doctor, paranoid gun owner, and supersaint could have worked with or against the mafia to either cause 5-12 dead townies in two nights or even 7/8 dead mafia in that span. This causes a very swingy game.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Wait, are people actually blaming me for my lynch? What did I do guys, tell the truth?
Summing it up:
*Failtastic Claim
*Failtastic Defense
*Failtastic Flailing
Honestly jobo you could have claimed Jester and you wouldn't have looked half as scummy as you did this game
Also, HOW DID WE NOT LYNCH SEP.
I like to think our kill of people who were actively supporting my lynch added a little tothe fear of this being a mislynch but in all honesty i think it was because the town played more nooby than the n00b scum
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
like I said in my post during the game, you were a keystone cop. Look it up.
I had to waste my day vig, because no one believed you after the vezo incident. I guarantee it would have been sepiriel on the town survivor claim or cyouni for lurking hard.
But on that note we should've coordinated the cops and played follow the cops with two docs claimed.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Wait, are people actually blaming me for my lynch? What did I do guys, tell the truth?
You told the truth, but only after significant pressure and hassle to do so. The whole "did anyone target rianalnn or I vig" was especially annoying.
Day 2 was actually much of the same, with you and vezokpiraka being tight lipped to any questions about Seppel, saying "just trust us, we're sane." If you're going to come out with information, be ready to support it. The rest of the players don't have your role, and so you need to earn trust, not automatically assume you deserve it.
Lastly, investigating yourself and then forgetting the next night are two wasted nights for the main cop of the game. Even if that is telling the truth, it is very much deserving of blame.
like I said in my post during the game, you were a keystone cop. Look it up.
I had to waste my day vig, because no one believed you after the vezo incident. I guarantee it would have been sepiriel on the town survivor claim or cyouni for lurking hard.
But on that note we should've coordinated the cops and played follow the cops with two docs claimed.
I didn't feel like your vig was wasted, i felt like it killed a known mafia so we could find the others.
The town was plauged by problems this game. Me and Khorney's flailtastic day 1's, 3 townies outright lying to their teammates and being so WIFOM about their roles, and just sloppy play in day3 and beyond.
My cop targets were
Night 1: The Ice King (Roleblocked)
Night 2: Seppel
Night 3: Rianalnn
Night 4: Zindabad
Night 5: Guardman (Roleblocked)
Night 6: Sepiriel (game ended)
I felt like i made good decisions about whom to target with the exception of Zinda. I was going to target Zinda Night 3 instead of Rian, and i felt that would have been better as well.
I played pretty horrible this game and i'm sorry to the town for that. My first large game, and it was very hard to follow at the start. It was also hard because Annie accidentally sent me Alpha's PM, complete with Mason stuff, so i knew Alpha was town in the back of my mind the whole game. Bastard
Shalako: The point of the Gun-Nut role isn't to WIFOM the town. Plus, self-hammering instead of letting someone vote you? Bah!
There was a line here for Naka, but lets just say horrible lies to your team-mates ended up being a theme for this game.
Jobo: Wasting a target on yourself i felt was the worst thing you could have done. Sure, confirming Sanity is good when your un-claimed, but as a claimed cop simply targeting and informing the town is enough information to find sanity.
It never once crossed my mind that there could have been 2 mafia. This was partially i think due to the 2 one kill nights we had. If there had been 2 kills, i would have at least entertained a possible SK or another cult.
These were actually 80% chance of normal sanity-based response and 20% Bat☺☺☺☺ Insane random response. They should've given enough information to be able to make the game interesting, but throw curveballs occasionally that make you wonder if you really are sure of your sanity. It's really meant as a way of encouraging behavioral analysis over flavor analysis and metagaming.
It really doesn't work that way, because unlike you, they don't know the percentages or even that there are percentages, and they don't get a sample size even close enough to work it out. All any non-sane cop does is create mislynches and confusion. It is the furthest thing from encouraging behavioural analysis.
Looking briefly at this game design, I think you've to some extent fallen in the Azrael trap of forgetting that your town doesn't have the information you have and can't think the way you want them to.
I pretty much agree with Lost Profit's analysis, take that on board for next time and you're golden.
I'm nominating myself for mod probation. Nobody should have to deal with this ☺☺☺☺ again; next game I design is getting handed off to a decent mod.
Honestly, the game seemed fine beyond the 2 partially paranoid/insane cops. I really think the setup would have been winnable if AI was simply naive and i was simply paranoid.
I'm nominating myself for mod probation. Nobody should have to deal with this ☺☺☺☺ again; next game I design is getting handed off to a decent mod.
I think you're beating yourself up too much over this. We all think that our setups are great when we create them, and then once things get going plenty of obvious errors jump out at us.
Just chalk it up to a learning experience and do better next time.
The town was just unlucky enough to not lynch either Sep or AL. If either of those two had been lynched past day 2, then it should have become obvious there was a second mafia (especially if Sep was lynched).
Speaking of which, Could we get a list of all the roles there Annie? I know you have them saved to the dummy account.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Also in case people are interested here is the scum chat we set up:
http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/ZY43KsPwfVd
I'm sure it will include a lot of me slapping your wrist and saying "Stop that."
I suicided on my first mislynch because nobody would listen to me:
Fun fact: Three townies suicided that game and the town still won.
That's true, the bastard mod scenario really defied most people's expectations and we were able to play to this.
That's pretty funny. You guys seemed to give up on the idea of a second mafia after the cult was outed, whereas our group saw you guys dying and knew that a second group still had to be out there. What we didn't expect was 4 scum on each team. After day 2 there was only 1 NK a night, so we just assumed the team was Seppel, Taylor, and Jscolton. It wasn't until Rianalnn turned up dead (we sent in the kill on A_I) that it became clear that either there was one scum left on the other team, or Ria targetted Shalako and got killed.
My RB targets were as follows, if I remember correctly:
Night 1- Pale Mage
Night 2 - Arcadic (redirected to R_O)
Night 3 - Joboman
Night 4 - Lost_Profit (failed)
Night 5 - Arcadic
Night 6 - Guardman
You thought I was mafia too, at first. That's why our mafia NKed you, you were playing too well.
Yes Toastboy was definitely one of, if not the, strongest player and we really had to be quick with the killing
No need to rub it in
Congrats to the winning party.
Suffice to say, my Night 2 kill was Jscolton and Night 3 kill was Sepiriel.
Then at Night 3, I was told my kill failed due to Sepiriel being a kill-immune Godfather and I was in turn killed by Sepiriel. Fun~
At any rate, while I find my role and the game entertaining (thanks to Annorax for that! :)), it will be a long while before I sign up for another bastard game.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
This was the hilarious moment where at the last moment Cy went "No Sep needs to send the kill!!!!" so not only did we manage to evade the Tracker i also delivered sweet retribution to my would be killer :D.
Annorax one question though: was making me and Taylor the godfathers also part of the bastardy? or was that pure dumb luck?
I was wondering when the town would pick up on there being two mafia families in the game.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Pure dumb luck.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
?
I only knew of it after I died when Annorax told me of it.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I could have sworn that within my first couple messages in mafia chat though, I said there should have been one more person on the other scum team though.
Also, I thought for sure that once jobo died and turned up town, that I would end up being the next target, considering my mason group consisted of the cult leader, and then the sane cop. I was praying that jobo would turn up scum so I could claim to be the safe person in the mason group.
And you kill both of them. Too many mafioso. I had slim chances of converting people. And I was already annoyed how the town was so retarded and trying to lynch me and Jobo instead of Seppel. Uh
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Clown.
Of course, but the way you said it made it sound like it was obvious/you knew/suspected beforehand.
In case you missed it, when you died all of your followers died to. So it would have been DOUBLE KILLS for a mafia team if you had recruited while people knew you where cult.
I was HOPING people would take you up on your offer so we could kill you in a night or two and get extra dead townsfolk.
1) More consistency from the mod's side. Some examples:
- Letting joboman use his ability after night ended. I have a feeling this was done only because you already knew he was roleblocked, but it is not a good precedent to set.
- Giving different roleblock flavors. You told Arcadic that he was roleblocked, but you simply told joboman that his action failed. One of many reasons leading to his lynch.
- I don't know about other players, but my results were highly inconsistent. The first two nights you simply told me how many players I redirected. The rest of the days I had to ask for my results. They were readily provided, but you should either give them all at the end night or just not at all.
2) This game was not actually very conducive to behavioral analysis.- Having multiple cops, even of questionable sanity, will lead to cop based play. The solution to forcing behavioral analysis is to remove cops altogether, not make their results questionable.
- Having random cops *will* cause a mislynch. It was probably already too late by the time ours happened, but it is a virtue of the role.
- Multiple mafias actually make behavioral analysis much harder. Links are made to dead mafia members, and clearances as well. With 2 mafias, the problem is the mafia can legitimately scumhunt.
3) A *lot* of killing roles that could have ended this game very quickly.Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Why was I the target for a kill?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I should've stuck to my guns about the vote record and investigated a l
So who are you actually lost profit. If you won't say have we at least played together before
12-11? I'm losing track
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Also, HOW DID WE NOT LYNCH SEP.
Also, I told ya so.
Joboman, Paranoid Noob Town RRRU
Mafia Record:
5-1-2 (Alignment)
1-6-3 (wins/incomplete/lose)
*Failtastic Claim
*Failtastic Defense
*Failtastic Flailing
Honestly jobo you could have claimed Jester and you wouldn't have looked half as scummy as you did this game
I like to think our kill of people who were actively supporting my lynch added a little tothe fear of this being a mislynch but in all honesty i think it was because the town played more nooby than the n00b scum
I had to waste my day vig, because no one believed you after the vezo incident. I guarantee it would have been sepiriel on the town survivor claim or cyouni for lurking hard.
But on that note we should've coordinated the cops and played follow the cops with two docs claimed.
12-11? I'm losing track
Day 2 was actually much of the same, with you and vezokpiraka being tight lipped to any questions about Seppel, saying "just trust us, we're sane." If you're going to come out with information, be ready to support it. The rest of the players don't have your role, and so you need to earn trust, not automatically assume you deserve it.
Lastly, investigating yourself and then forgetting the next night are two wasted nights for the main cop of the game. Even if that is telling the truth, it is very much deserving of blame.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
I didn't feel like your vig was wasted, i felt like it killed a known mafia so we could find the others.
The town was plauged by problems this game. Me and Khorney's flailtastic day 1's, 3 townies outright lying to their teammates and being so WIFOM about their roles, and just sloppy play in day3 and beyond.
My cop targets were
Night 1: The Ice King (Roleblocked)
Night 2: Seppel
Night 3: Rianalnn
Night 4: Zindabad
Night 5: Guardman (Roleblocked)
Night 6: Sepiriel (game ended)
I felt like i made good decisions about whom to target with the exception of Zinda. I was going to target Zinda Night 3 instead of Rian, and i felt that would have been better as well.
I played pretty horrible this game and i'm sorry to the town for that. My first large game, and it was very hard to follow at the start. It was also hard because Annie accidentally sent me Alpha's PM, complete with Mason stuff, so i knew Alpha was town in the back of my mind the whole game. Bastard
Shalako: The point of the Gun-Nut role isn't to WIFOM the town. Plus, self-hammering instead of letting someone vote you? Bah!
There was a line here for Naka, but lets just say horrible lies to your team-mates ended up being a theme for this game.
Jobo: Wasting a target on yourself i felt was the worst thing you could have done. Sure, confirming Sanity is good when your un-claimed, but as a claimed cop simply targeting and informing the town is enough information to find sanity.
It never once crossed my mind that there could have been 2 mafia. This was partially i think due to the 2 one kill nights we had. If there had been 2 kills, i would have at least entertained a possible SK or another cult.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
It really doesn't work that way, because unlike you, they don't know the percentages or even that there are percentages, and they don't get a sample size even close enough to work it out. All any non-sane cop does is create mislynches and confusion. It is the furthest thing from encouraging behavioural analysis.
Looking briefly at this game design, I think you've to some extent fallen in the Azrael trap of forgetting that your town doesn't have the information you have and can't think the way you want them to.
I pretty much agree with Lost Profit's analysis, take that on board for next time and you're golden.
I'm nominating myself for mod probation. Nobody should have to deal with this ☺☺☺☺ again; next game I design is getting handed off to a decent mod.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Honestly, the game seemed fine beyond the 2 partially paranoid/insane cops. I really think the setup would have been winnable if AI was simply naive and i was simply paranoid.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Don't give youself that much of a hit.
It was bastard mafia after all. You experimented and it didn't go well, I don't think that is a reason for probation.
That being said, stupid two mafia garbage...
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Gods no, just take it into account for next time! Few mods are perfect.
I think you're beating yourself up too much over this. We all think that our setups are great when we create them, and then once things get going plenty of obvious errors jump out at us.
Just chalk it up to a learning experience and do better next time.
I hardly think you need to be on probation for this game, it happens, besides the setup went into review twice.
So there where a few hiccups, if you notice no one is saying the game was unfun, we all had fun and that i think is the main thing.
Speaking of which, Could we get a list of all the roles there Annie? I know you have them saved to the dummy account.
There are some errors left in the setup that were corrected at PM time.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)