Wow, this is going to be an excellent adventure! Another game that starts off with vez claiming something that screws with the Town! (See Heroes Mafia for those confused - link in sig)
Quote from Nacho Wizard »
That said, I'm very certain he is town, as this role makes no sense for scum.
Why doesn't it? Especially if you cannot confirm to co-deaths like he said you'd be able to. It means he could have added that bit on the end (perhaps with some daytalk coaching) in order to protect himself and tie up Town resources. It could be that you're both scum and he knew that's how you got into the game, he botched the fake claim, and now you're trying to cover for him. It could just be that you're both Town and vez is simply confused. Or it could be that you're right Nacho, and vez is trying to draw a kill in order to make them waste it. I don't credit vez with enough guile and forethought for that however.
The way I see it, he's either confused or scum. The problem is: there's no way to tell with vez. Maybe his flavor could clear up the matter, but Nacho is right - flavor isn't needed at this time. Would it clear things up? Maybe. Could it be disaterous? Possibly. I think our best course of action is to put this aside for now and see where Night 1 inevitably takes us.
Do you have some strong reason to suspect he's scum?
Town should not be lying, and if they do, it should be very worth it and completely hidden; the fact that there's this ruckus about it means he's ☺☺☺☺ed up (if he's lying) and it's worth clearing up.
Why can't he be town and lying?
Why do you say he's town?
Are you town? If you say yes, clearly you should claim so we can decide if you are lying or not.
I am town. Why should I claim? Did I ever say my role was tied to someone else's? What exactly are you going to compare my role to in order to decide if I'm lying or not?
OR WE COULD JUST LET IT GO AND PLAY MAFIA THAT SOUNDS FUN
Why let it go? I'm playing mafia AND bothering you. Double win for me.
Why don't you think that a neutral-survivor type might do this? Yes, he paints a target on his head, but he also attracts protection.
Yes, but staying out of the spotlight day 1 tends to work better at long term survival, which is what a neutral role wants.
Quote from nacho wizard »
Because you are role fishing. I don't want Vezok to discuss the inconsistency with our respective PMs any further. What do you see as a benefit from that?
Defensive much? Vezo already offered to give his flavor:
If there is a majority the 18th player will join the game as a vanilla townie. He is confirmed town for me. I can flavor claim if you want. I know the role name and series of the person who joins the game.
so... why should there be any inconsistency in the role PM's? You two wouldn't be fooling around with #6 now would you?
Due to what he said at the end of Shrek mafia about how he's been playing scummy in order to get a scum win (which he did). People assumed he just always played scummy and let him go. We lost that game after vigging scum N1 and lynching scum D2. He did say he wasn't going to do that again, but we don't know if he's lying or not. That being said, I don't want to actually lynch him unless he acts scummy.
Vezo offered to give the flavor for his role. I'd like to hear it. Can we have a show of hands for this?
Daytalk is a good thing to know. I thought you were caught scum for a second until I went back and read the rules post again.
As for Vezok...I agree that his claim seems like a bad idea as scum. As such I would prefer that he doesn't reveal his flavor. If he plays the game scummy then we can revisit this later as I think he's likely to be town.
Because you are role fishing. I don't want Vezok to discuss the inconsistency with our respective PMs any further. What do you see as a benefit from that?
Can't fish in an empty pond.
Quote from Vez »
I am a french vanilla that knows what the magic does.
Quote from Nacho »
Yes, clearly a survivor wants to make the mafia want to kill him in exchange for the doc maybe having his back. WAHT
I've got some suggestions for some possible role interactions/flavor/conceptions. I'm interested in the flavor claim first before I share them.
Quote from Nacho »
No, it's not. You guys know that Vezok brought me into the game, and that's all the relevant info. What does a full claim with flavor accomplish? Not a thing, other than to satisfy your curiousity. Maybe his flavor is that he's invincible as long as I'm alive? MAYBE THIS IS WHY WE SHOULD STOP TALKING ABOUT, GENIUS.
Testy?
He's claimed french vanilla already. Besides, he couldn't be vanilla as long as you are alive (outside of bastardism) - you live only long as he is alive. According to him.
Also by getting upset and making a deal about this, you inherently draw more attention to this subject rather than less.
Vez is by no stretch confirmed town, despite him throwing you into this game.
Quote from Nacho »
vote: cantrip Other dude did this too, but I get worse vibes from this post.
Bad vote based on a bad position.
Quote from Dropkick »
The way I see it, he's either confused or scum. The problem is: there's no way to tell with vez. Maybe his flavor could clear up the matter, but Nacho is right - flavor isn't needed at this time. Would it clear things up? Maybe. Could it be disaterous? Possibly. I think our best course of action is to put this aside for now and see where Night 1 inevitably takes us.
I think of how a flavor claim could help. I can see how it would not do us any favors.
What I don't get is how it could be disastrous. He's already told us everything else and offered to hand us the information before.
It's not like we have an infinity of other issues in our lap at the moment.
Quote from Dropkick »
Or it could be that you're right Nacho, and vez is trying to draw a kill in order to make them waste it. I don't credit vez with enough guile and forethought for that however.
If that's his plan, it's not a very good one. Vez likely isn't to die until a doctor croaks.
...
Quote from Nacho »
Do you have some strong reason to suspect he's scum? Why can't he be town and lying? Are you town? If you say yes, clearly you should claim so we can decide if you are lying or not.
1) His move makes no sense from a pro town perspective.
1a) He's made a claim that you assess conflicts with yours.
2) He could be town and lying. Just finished a game with Dracofaust where he claimed vanilla and then turned out to be the doctor. That almost got him lynched. There's a reason you find liars more often with scum than town.
3) He's already claimed his role, Nacho. He simply hasn't provided the flavor. And that's a terrible strawman.
Quote from Nacho »
OR WE COULD JUST LET IT GO AND PLAY MAFIA THAT SOUNDS FUN
I really don't like your attempts to discredit this conversation as worthless.
Town should not be lying, and if they do, it should be very worth it and completely hidden; the fact that there's this ruckus about it means he's ☺☺☺☺ed up (if he's lying) and it's worth clearing up.
No, it's not. Why would he lie? Use your brain. Apply to problem. Answers happen!
Why do you say he's town?
Because I am town and it makes no sense for scum to bring another townie into the game.
I am town. Why should I claim? Did I ever say my role was tied to someone else's? What exactly are you going to compare my role to in order to decide if I'm lying or not?
I have role-based flavor that says your scum. Now we need you to full claim so we can clear this up.
Why let it go? I'm playing mafia AND bothering you. Double win for me.
Why not just massclaim then? Let's all just spew all of our info all over the thread until mafia know exactly what is going on with town roles. Like, you realize that Vezok is 99% town, right? WHY DO YOU WANT TOWNIES TO CLAIM STOP IT NUB
And you are only bothering me in that you are making terrible posts and forcing me to type slower so you'll understand. So, go you?
Is there some reason that you didn't make any mention of the Magic: Yea or Nay in this "first" post, let alone make a vote on it?
Is there some reason you didn't random vote? That seems particularly strange given -
this post.
Enlighten me, please.
posting from my phone as I havnt been homme since 630 this morn edt. I didn't say anything on the magic for two reasons. One I didn't undertsnad the wording 100% and second I figured there would be at least some discussion on it
Random is not alll about weird votes. A simple woot first is random enough as a start, I figured id vote after some other posted their randoms but by the time I decided to check back in it was too far into the game.
Except it's not empty, because there is a discrepancy. DERF DERF
I've got some suggestions for some possible role interactions/flavor/conceptions. I'm interested in the flavor claim first before I share them.
So, you are pushing a townie to fully claim because... you want to speculate on flavor/game setup? Good lord
Testy?
I'm hoping that maybe if I type in caps it will magically make you smarter. Actually, that is my role, if I post at you in caps you magically become smarter. MAGIC
He's claimed french vanilla already. Besides, he couldn't be vanilla as long as you are alive (outside of bastardism) - you live only long as he is alive. According to him.
Did you even read my earlier posts? Maybe he is lying to draw a scum kill. Maybe he is incapable of understanding written words and misunderstood his PM. Maybe RobRoy just forgot that part of my PM and he's about to send me clarification. But most importantly, unless you have strong reason to think Vezok is scum in one of these scenarios, there is ZERO benefit to making him clarify further.
Also by getting upset and making a deal about this, you inherently draw more attention to this subject rather than less.
Freaking what? Of course everybody is already paying attention to it. You think the scum saw him go "If you kill me, Nacho dies too" and didn't take note? You think drawing ATTENTION is the issue? That's already done, I'm just trying to stop you cones from completely outting both our roles for no reason.
Vez is by no stretch confirmed town, despite him throwing you into this game.
Then make a case for that, because as far as I'm concerned, there is almost no chance he is scum.
Bad vote based on a bad position.
Explain why or stuff it.
I think of how a flavor claim could help. I can see how it would not do us any favors.
What I don't get is how it could be disastrous. He's already told us everything else and offered to hand us the information before.
It's not like we have an infinity of other issues in our lap at the moment.
If that's his plan, it's not a very good one. Vez likely isn't to die until a doctor croaks.
Because I'm telling you I think it would be disastrous. Hold me accountable for this later, but we are not going further right now.
1) His move makes no sense from a pro town perspective.
We've already been over this. He could be bulletproof as long as I live and trying to draw scum fire. I really didn't want to say that, but it's possible. Do I really need to speculate more or can your imagination figure out some more possibilities?
1a) He's made a claim that you assess conflicts with yours.
So?
2) He could be town and lying. Just finished a game with Dracofaust where he claimed vanilla and then turned out to be the doctor. That almost got him lynched. There's a reason you find liars more often with scum than town.
So, you argue that him claiming isn't disastrous by... bringing up a time when a townie lied and forcing him to claim was disastrous. Splendid job, I'm a go grab a smoke while you finish making my case for me.
3) He's already claimed his role, Nacho. He simply hasn't provided the flavor. And that's a terrible strawman.
Except apparently he has left some stuff out/got some stuff wrong. You can't say "he has already claimed, what's the harm in him claiming more?" when clearly something is off with the claim.
This is like if some dude claimed vanilla, and then a watcher said he saw him target another person, but also got flavor that made him think he was definitely town. Would you really go "What's your flavor? Claim the rest of your role!" to the guy who lied but is probably town?
I really don't like your attempts to discredit this conversation as worthless.
You act like I'm being all subtle in telling you talking about this is terrible.
No, it's not. Why would he lie? Use your brain. Apply to problem. Answers happen!
If he's scum, he just won over won townie, and if he's scum and didn't cause this ruckus, then he would've cemented himself even further.
Maybe you should think first, decide after, instead of just deciding and not thinking.
Also I never did once imply that I thought he was more likely scum than not. The chance that he's scum and screwed up is not that large; but he already full claimed and offered to claim flavour - what's wrong in getting clarification? Your "best" scenario is that he's lying and trying to draw a night kill. Okay? You just ☺☺☺☺ed it up by saying you think he's wrong, and now you're blaming us for it? If he's terrible at reading then what's wrong with what we're asking?
Oh sorry I forget. Your entire "thinking before deciding" problem.
Because I am town and it makes no sense for scum to bring another townie into the game.
Implying in all our PM's it says you're town.
Implying we would've voted against the magic thing.
I have role-based flavor that says your scum. Now we need you to full claim so we can clear this up.
Hahahaha oh wow. Are you serious? No you must just be trolling me.
Let's compare cases, I'll even color code it for you in case your reading comprehension fails you:
1. vezo says something will happen if we vote for it, and that this something also does this.
2.We vote for it, something happens.
3. this doesn't happens.
As opposed to what you're doing:
1. you say something.
2. ???
3. Profit
Why not just massclaim then? Let's all just spew all of our info all over the thread until mafia know exactly what is going on with town roles. Like, you realize that Vezok is 99% town, right? WHY DO YOU WANT TOWNIES TO CLAIM STOP IT NUB
Nice misrep and ad-hom. I'm the last person on this site that'd want to mass claim day 1.
And you are only bothering me in that you are making terrible posts and forcing me to type slower so you'll understand. So, go you?
I know that typing slowly is hard for you since you actually have to think about what you're typing instead of just slapping your hands onto the keyboard.
What do you mean by that last question, it confuses me. I thought it was another rules post thing, but the rules don't go up to 6, only up to 4.
The #6 does not refer to an in-game rule, it is merely an idea I'm tossing around in my head that might explain what the deal is between nacho and vezo.
I'm not impressed, Nacho. Tossing insults isn't going to get you anywhere.
...
Your position appears to be that since you think he lied, he has another role you don't want him claiming. Normally lying is pretty bad and worth exploring. You however are sure he is town because he added you, a townie, into the game, thus it would make no sense for him to be scum according to you.
What makes me think it could be a possible mafia role is that he claims you die if he dies. This makes you easy to get rid of - you're somewhat of an illusionary bonus in that case.
Why would a scum role add a town role to the game? Multitude of reasons. Perhaps he gets a bonus as long as you are alive, some ability or protection as a balancing effect. Your reaction itself shows a meta response - maybe the benefit is the town pants bought for adding a player into the game. I also once ran a game with a witch who had a familiar that died if the witch died, and both were mafia. I've seen all these kind of things before, scum reviving townies in ways that benefit them.
Are these the most common of roles? No, not really. But then again, neither is adding someone to the game 24 hours in. I'm not versed well in what happens at MTG Salvation but I've hosted games with effects similar to Vez's claim that had scum behind them.
I'm sorry but I fail to see what's so incredibly stupid about this. Perhaps if you stopped harassing me and tried explaining things after you learned what I was actually thinking, I could recant and change my mind.
Quote from Nacho »
Freaking what? Of course everybody is already paying attention to it. You think the scum saw him go "If you kill me, Nacho dies too" and didn't take note? You think drawing ATTENTION is the issue? That's already done, I'm just trying to stop you cones from completely outting both our roles for no reason
Of course people were going to notice it. But you jumping up and down over and over is just going to turn it into a bigger issue. It's like going up to the media and denying something instead of saying nothing at all.
Also - Vez is the one who's already "outted" himself. If there's anyone you should be furiously pissed at it's him, not me.
Quote from Nacho »
Because I'm telling you I think it would be disastrous. Hold me accountable for this later, but we are not going further right now.
Hrm. All right. If you say so, I suppose for the moment I'm all right with him not sharing the flavor.
What Vez says and does later though could change my mind.
Quote from Nacho »
We've already been over this. He could be bulletproof as long as I live and trying to draw scum fire. I really didn't want to say that, but it's possible. Do I really need to speculate more or can your imagination figure out some more possibilities?
A pretty horrible plan if so. He's likely to be doctor protected and not be hit by mafia, and it comes at the cost of exposing you as confirmed town.
Quote from Nacho »
So, you are pushing a townie to fully claim because... you want to speculate on flavor/game setup? Good lord
He's already fully claimed or he lied, Nacho. Asking for someone to claim flavor isn't ridiculous when they've already claimed their role. C'mon, you know no one is going to want people to full claim just to speculate for the hell of it. There's no need to go there.
Up until this point you hadn't explained your position well that you think he is actively lying and has an entire role to not claim, thus our confusion.
Quote from Nacho »
So, you argue that him claiming isn't disastrous by... bringing up a time when a townie lied and forcing him to claim was disastrous. Splendid job, I'm a go grab a smoke while you finish making my case for me.
Actually we forced him to claim because we were planning to lynch him because he said he couldn't answer arguments against him and because he was active lurking. We didn't randomly ask him to go claim. That's just standard procedure.
The point I'm trying to make is that lying is an anti-town move because it so often backfires, so you tend to see liars more often as scum than town. This does not mean all people who lie are scum, but it's definitely a bad sign and worth looking into.
Again, you're arguing a full claim that has not been dispensed, I was referring to flavor for an already full claimed role.
Quote from Nacho »
So?
That's generally bad.
Quote from Nacho »
You act like I'm being all subtle in telling you talking about this is terrible.
I am being too subtle in my attempts to talk about your unsubtle behavior?
Quote from Nacho »
Except apparently he has left some stuff out/got some stuff wrong. You can't say "he has already claimed, what's the harm in him claiming more?" when clearly something is off with the claim.
I think this is the crux of the argument here. I am of the opinion that this is worth looking into because leaving out stuff/getting stuff wrong is suspicious. You probably agree, but assume he has to be town because he added you into the game and you think only town roles would do that. I've seen roles that were not town add town back to the game or revive town, and I've seen roles that were town that added a scum to the game, so I'm willing to entertain the idea he might be scum - and from my perspective, asking a player who's already full claimed who _offered flavor_ doesn't seem unreasonable.
If this is some elaborate gambit for our own good that I'm somehow too "stupid" to see, I'm a bit perplexed as to how asking for the flavor would hurt. Vez already offered it. If it is a complex gamble, he probably isn't going to full claim real flavor after a lie but give us another lie to sustain the gamble.
Nacho, if you could avoid being rude and calm down, we could have a productive discussion. I don't think either of us are idiots and if you tried to understand what I was saying/thinking better, you could communicate to ME better what you want done and possibly experience success and what you want.
Or you could just call me an idiot.
Quote from Nacho »
This is like if some dude claimed vanilla, and then a watcher said he saw him target another person, but also got flavor that made him think he was definitely town. Would you really go "What's your flavor? Claim the rest of your role!" to the guy who lied but is probably town?
Would depend on the gamestate and how the player acted.
Vez has come out and posted that Nacho, regardless of how he acts, is confirmed town. Asking for him to be modkilled when (as Nacho points out himself) he could be replaced out, is very anti-town. What's weird is that you also point out he was town in another game where he did the same thing, like you had experience with it before.
In the same vein Zionite there's not really a good reason to vote for Nacho right now.
I hope Nacho simply cools off. If he continues, he'll simply be replaced out or banned. If he continues and isn't, then I'll replace out myself because there are better things to do with my time than fight with hostile people on the Internet.
Quote from drop »
He's either my new least favorite player, or he's a Jester. I'm thinking the latter.
Do you really think he's a jester?
...
Some questions.
On _this_ site, has there ever been a game where a non-town revived or added a town player to the game?
Is RobRoy a known bastard mod or hosted any bastard games?
He's either my new least favorite player, or he's a Jester. I'm thinking the latter.
...and by latter I clearly meant former: I'm not liking him at all right now.
@PK: I have played in a few games with vez, I know he's impulsive, rash, and misreads PM's. I can invision a few scenarios where he would lie about being merely "french vanilla" and him claiming flavor could have negative consequences that he didn't anticipate.
@Nacho: This whole situation was brought about by you contradicting his claim that you die when he does. If you figured he lied because he's bulletproof or something, and discussion of the topic would hinder his grand scheme, why then did you come out and counter him?
He's either my new least favorite player, or he's a Jester. I'm thinking the latter.
Dude I am totally a jester please vote for me.
Quote from Zionite »
vote nacho_wizard
I don't feel bad about that.
You should feel bad about your broken game that the town could only win by accident and cooperating with scum.
Quote from ProphetKing »
Also - Vez is the one who's already "outted" himself. If there's anyone you should be furiously pissed at it's him, not me.
You really have no idea.
Okay, this isn't working. Vezok screwed up something awful and I was trying to salvage things a bit. There isn't a contradiction in the role PMs, I was just trying to give the scum some WIFOM for their NK. That apparently Vezok's role (or similar) has been scum before is something I hadn't considered. At this point, I think enough of the contradictions in my bluff have been pointed out, plus some doubt in Vezok's townieness, PLUS the fact that I may have only been scaring protection roles off leads me to just give it up.
In the future, if somebody you have no reason to distrust is saying "let's not talk about this, we can deal with it later", maybe it's a good idea to listen. Or maybe if I had just said that very clearly in the first place, this would have gone better.
Sorry for insulting Prophet, he actually seems like a reasonably intelligent guy. Everybody else is being a whiny girl.
I am extremely tempted to ask for replacement simply to get away from playing in this game with you, nacho wizard, and you haven't even insulted me directly yet.
You seriously need to calm down or go find a new hobby, because you won't last in this environment acting like that, I assure you.
In the future, if somebody you have no reason to distrust is saying "let's not talk about this, we can deal with it later", maybe it's a good idea to listen. Or maybe if I had just said that very clearly in the first place, this would have gone better.
By bringing up a contradiction you expected us to NOT question it? See, when you say something like "let's not talk about this", you need an implicit trust in whatever it is that's not being talked about.
A contradiction is not an implicit trust.
Sorry for insulting Prophet, he actually seems like a reasonably intelligent guy. Everybody else is being a whiny girl.
As long as he keeps insulting me/others like he has been, well he's not getting any form of respect me and I'm not going to take it lying down like a *****.
I am extremely tempted to ask for replacement simply to get away from playing in this game with you, nacho wizard, and you haven't even insulted me directly yet.
You seriously need to calm down or go find a new hobby, because you won't last in this environment acting like that, I assure you.
Your words cut me, Tycho.
@MM: I brought up the contradiction and then said it was okay. Unless you had some reason to strongly think me and Vezok are scum, then you pressing the point was horribly anti-town. For instance, if Vezok had been doing some gambit, you ruined it. It turned out I was the one running a gambit, and you ruined that.
It's not ad hom, it was truth. I've asked several respected mods on another site, and they all agree that your setup was too swingy and badly imbalanced. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings. I never said the game wasn't fun.
You don't have to respect him, you just have to co-exist with him.
And not taking it like a ***** doesn't mean responding in kind. I could've flamed Nacho, but instead I opened up an actual dialog with him and he respected that. It's not exactly hard to defend your own opinions or thoughts without being an instigator yourself.
As for Nacho - he knows to stop and I think he will. If not, well, consequences will never be the same.
Oh yeah, I guess I should 'claim'? I post on other sites as YossarianLives, have played in 50+ games of mafia, and have little patience with people with thin skin. Believe it or not, (other than that basic that was lollllll bad) I have been toning down my usual style and trying to be more civil. If you think I'm annoying and hate me, too bad, deal with it. Because I'm going to win us the game if Vezok doesn't get me killed first.
I have indicated that I was mistaken in my choice of words, I do not think you are a Jester.
You should feel bad about your broken game that the town could only win by accident and cooperating with scum.
This is highly un-called-for, distasteful, rude, and downright incorrect.
Okay, this isn't working. Vezok screwed up something awful and I was trying to salvage things a bit. There isn't a contradiction in the role PMs, I was just trying to give the scum some WIFOM for their NK. That apparently Vezok's role (or similar) has been scum before is something I hadn't considered. At this point, I think enough of the contradictions in my bluff have been pointed out, plus some doubt in Vezok's townieness, PLUS the fact that I may have only been scaring protection roles off leads me to just give it up.
So your grand plan was to screw the situation more? Mission accomplished!
In the future, if somebody you have no reason to distrust is saying "let's not talk about this, we can deal with it later", maybe it's a good idea to listen. Or maybe if I had just said that very clearly in the first place, this would have gone better.
Everything would have been fine if you hadn't contradicted him or been as belligerent as you've been. The whole reason anyone wanted to know anything more was because you created a scenario in which everyone was confused. In the future, you should think about how people are naturally going to react to things before posting them.
Sorry for insulting Prophet, he actually seems like a reasonably intelligent guy. Everybody else is being a whiny girl.
I have indicated that I was mistaken in my choice of words, I do not think you are a Jester.
Does that mean you won't vote for me? ;__;
This is highly un-called-for, distasteful, rude, and downright incorrect.
How many mods do I need to poll for you to see you're wrong? Anyway, I only brought it up because clearly Zionite has a grudge from that game.
So your grand plan was to screw the situation more? Mission accomplished!
No, my plan was to put doubt in the minds of the scum and for intelligent townies to let it go for now. I was so adamant about dropping it because I expected (and still do) Vezok to come back and be like "whaaa?! of course we both die lolz"
Everything would have been fine if you hadn't contradicted him or been as belligerent as you've been. The whole reason anyone wanted to know anything more was because you created a scenario in which everyone was confused. In the future, you should think about how people are naturally going to react to things before posting them.
Shrug. I was trying my best to make up for Vezok's massive screw up. I guess I shouldn't have been expecting the benefit of doubt from people who despise me.
...
People seem to be under this false presumption that if they close theirs eyes and wish really hard, all the difficult people in life can just be whisked away like magic. I think this site could be a really quality place to post and play some mafias if there wasn't this desire to stamp out all undesirable elements. Undesirables are a necessary part of any society. See, I'm helping you by making you feel better about yourself as compared to me! Let's be BFFs!
Oh no. I love Dantes. I've hosted...god, it's been so many years now that most of the games are destroyed and no longer exist. But something like 30+ games hosted or more, and more than half were very bastard games inspired by Literature Mafia and the like.
The games were/are fun, but as you could predict, often not balanced well. (Some spectacularly so.) And essentially every game was bastard like Dantes. Pretty crazy place.
Then the Wizards of the Coast switched to that godawful new site and it killed everything in my little subforum. I share your pain, Nacho. It never was the same.
People seem to be under this false presumption that if they close theirs eyes and wish really hard, all the difficult people in life can just be whisked away like magic. I think this site could be a really quality place to post and play some mafias if there wasn't this desire to stamp out all undesirable elements. Undesirables are a necessary part of any society. See, I'm helping you by making you feel better about yourself as compared to me! Let's be BFFs!
My "..." was there because I had originally put about 20 different things there, but decided they all served no purpose but to start a flame war.
We have to assume that nacho is town because vez stated that the person brought in would be town. I can't think of a reason for him to lie about that unless its a scum role bringing in a scum role, which is a role I have a hard time picturing actually existing. As a result, voting for nacho is not something we should be doing, regardless if you don't like him.
@nacho You seem like you could be a fun guy to play Mafia with if you dropped the five year old mentality. It serves no purpose other than to take fun away from others. And even if you really are that much better than everyone else, you don't need to come off it the way you are.
Onto vez. I think its too early to call his alignment. There is wayyyy too much WIFOM at this point to come up with a logical decision for why the PR's don't match. Just keep a close eye on him the rest of the game to see if anything he does (and he will do something) indicates his alignment.
In news relevant to the game, anyone else have takes on the Nacho votes/move to modkill?
Vez says he's Town, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. I think his whole gambit-gone-wrong serves to actually reinforce that. I may not like his playstyle, but his reasoning seems to come from a Townie mindest. He was trying to the best he could in the situation. I don't agree with his decision to come out and counter vez to create WIFOM, but it makes no sense whatsoever to do that as scum. Scum would have taken the opportunity to ride vez's assurance, and would have loved for the Town to devote PR's to saving him. Unfortunately I'm convinced he's Town.
As such, I don't want him lynched or modkilled, but I wouldn't argue against a forced replacement.
@MM: I brought up the contradiction and then said it was okay. Unless you had some reason to strongly think me and Vezok are scum, then you pressing the point was horribly anti-town.
For instance, if Vezok had been doing some gambit, you ruined it. It turned out I was the one running a gambit, and you ruined that.
You are a ruiner QED
It doesn't have to be a huge point to warrant pressing into, there was a chance vezo was scum and ☺☺☺☺ed up. Multiple people asked for flavour, vezo himself earlier offered to claim flavour - there was little to lose and much to gain. Then you suddenly become gun-ho about it like a 13 year old kid just discovering the joys of internet porn and you expect people to suddenly react to it nicely? I suppose you did.
As for vezo pulling a gambit, I already said that you'd have ruined it the second you pointed out the contradiction. You disagree, I disagree. Okay sure fine. Doesn't matter who was running the gambit really. There'd always be doubt in our minds that "oh what if they're scum gambitting hurr durr" in all this confusion, whereas actual scum don't have that doubt.
Seeing as how you just made a Chrono Trigger reference I can forgive and forget.
@PK:
Respect was too strong a word.
Spice up your life a little. Pure arguing without insults get's stale. Get's the blood boiling (please no arguments about rationality vs emotion in the context of mafia :)).
:/ = :-/, which I don't associate with "unhappy," more of "dissatisfaction". I remember reading that surety is the antithesis of fun in Mafia, and I haven't run into a lot of "you know blah-info for sure at the start of the game" other than masons (which, granted, this sounds like a lover-mason combo). It seemed odd that RR would build in this mysterious orb element and give all the info about it to a single player. If true, then I would think that the optimal call would be to expose it as Vez did (without the death-combo part), which, again, ruins the "fun" of having a mysterious glowing orb. I guess I'm mod-gaming too much. <- Dissatisfaction.
Mmm, Vezo doing it again. I really don't like his playstyle. But this time he gets a pass as that would be tooo ballsy a play for scum and I don't think vezo is dumb/smart enough to try that gambit.
Vote Tordeck. You are trying to plant suspicion where there is none. Hell, YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT YOURSELF.
Well, in a game where someone is not town aligned I would expect them to life off their ass. Not so much town.
Posting little and coming off scummy is not the same as lying pro town. Does he lie pro town, make stuff up, "botch" flavor and role PM reads repeatedly?
As a pro town player, it makes no sense to reveal that if you die a confirmed town dies. You don't share that information. So either he's left out some key details or he made a misplay, if pro town. Hard for me to make any kind of judgment on Vez as I know nothing about him, so thus I ask questions.
If he's some kind of role that highly values survival (survivor, SK, etc.) letting that "slip" makes sense, as it likely ties up doctor protection for Vez, town not wanting to get 2 for 1'd via night kill.
I haven't played with him when he was town, but he reminds of this other guy. Back on MT, there was this dude named Mr. Sparkle. In a game, he had a one-shot super daycop (got entire role PM, basically), who misread his PM and thought he could do it as much as he wanted. This led to him claiming day 1 and then the next day was pretty awkward. I have a higher opinion of Mr. Sparkle than Vezok. Just sayin'.
Also, it might be a good idea if we didn't talk about this anymore.
Interesting point.
Assuming Vezo is a town role - There's signifigant drawbacks to his coming out with this immediately, most notably that it does paint a big target on him for the scum to try and kill (getting a 2-for-1). It also potentially ties up doc protection.
Assuming Vezo is a mafia role - The mafia do have daytalk in this game, so they could have come up with this as a bold tactic, since he can effectively use Nacho as a hostage to avoid being lynched/vigged. Also can tie up town roles (watcher and doc come to mind).
Assuming Vezo is neutral - I can't see him pulling this as a neutral role at all, unless there's a REALLY good role-related reason for him to.
Vezo offered to give the flavor for his role. I'd like to hear it. Can we have a show of hands for this?
If it makes you happier, I could rephrase it for you: "If someone lies off their ass, I would not expect them to be town and not be surprised if they were neutral/scum."
Why doesn't it? Especially if you cannot confirm to co-deaths like he said you'd be able to. It means he could have added that bit on the end (perhaps with some daytalk coaching) in order to protect himself and tie up Town resources. It could be that you're both scum and he knew that's how you got into the game, he botched the fake claim, and now you're trying to cover for him. It could just be that you're both Town and vez is simply confused. Or it could be that you're right Nacho, and vez is trying to draw a kill in order to make them waste it. I don't credit vez with enough guile and forethought for that however.
The way I see it, he's either confused or scum. The problem is: there's no way to tell with vez. Maybe his flavor could clear up the matter, but Nacho is right - flavor isn't needed at this time. Would it clear things up? Maybe. Could it be disaterous? Possibly. I think our best course of action is to put this aside for now and see where Night 1 inevitably takes us.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Why do you say he's town?
I am town. Why should I claim? Did I ever say my role was tied to someone else's? What exactly are you going to compare my role to in order to decide if I'm lying or not?
Why let it go? I'm playing mafia AND bothering you. Double win for me.
Yes, but staying out of the spotlight day 1 tends to work better at long term survival, which is what a neutral role wants.
Defensive much? Vezo already offered to give his flavor:
so... why should there be any inconsistency in the role PM's? You two wouldn't be fooling around with #6 now would you?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Due to what he said at the end of Shrek mafia about how he's been playing scummy in order to get a scum win (which he did). People assumed he just always played scummy and let him go. We lost that game after vigging scum N1 and lynching scum D2. He did say he wasn't going to do that again, but we don't know if he's lying or not. That being said, I don't want to actually lynch him unless he acts scummy.
Daytalk is a good thing to know. I thought you were caught scum for a second until I went back and read the rules post again.
As for Vezok...I agree that his claim seems like a bad idea as scum. As such I would prefer that he doesn't reveal his flavor. If he plays the game scummy then we can revisit this later as I think he's likely to be town.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
What do you mean by that last question, it confuses me. I thought it was another rules post thing, but the rules don't go up to 6, only up to 4.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?u=52729
I've got some suggestions for some possible role interactions/flavor/conceptions. I'm interested in the flavor claim first before I share them.
Testy?
He's claimed french vanilla already. Besides, he couldn't be vanilla as long as you are alive (outside of bastardism) - you live only long as he is alive. According to him.
Also by getting upset and making a deal about this, you inherently draw more attention to this subject rather than less.
Vez is by no stretch confirmed town, despite him throwing you into this game.
Bad vote based on a bad position.
I think of how a flavor claim could help. I can see how it would not do us any favors.
What I don't get is how it could be disastrous. He's already told us everything else and offered to hand us the information before.
It's not like we have an infinity of other issues in our lap at the moment.
If that's his plan, it's not a very good one. Vez likely isn't to die until a doctor croaks.
...
1) His move makes no sense from a pro town perspective.
1a) He's made a claim that you assess conflicts with yours.
2) He could be town and lying. Just finished a game with Dracofaust where he claimed vanilla and then turned out to be the doctor. That almost got him lynched. There's a reason you find liars more often with scum than town.
3) He's already claimed his role, Nacho. He simply hasn't provided the flavor. And that's a terrible strawman.
I really don't like your attempts to discredit this conversation as worthless.
No, it's not. Why would he lie? Use your brain. Apply to problem. Answers happen!
Because I am town and it makes no sense for scum to bring another townie into the game.
I have role-based flavor that says your scum. Now we need you to full claim so we can clear this up.
Why not just massclaim then? Let's all just spew all of our info all over the thread until mafia know exactly what is going on with town roles. Like, you realize that Vezok is 99% town, right? WHY DO YOU WANT TOWNIES TO CLAIM STOP IT NUB
And you are only bothering me in that you are making terrible posts and forcing me to type slower so you'll understand. So, go you?
Random is not alll about weird votes. A simple woot first is random enough as a start, I figured id vote after some other posted their randoms but by the time I decided to check back in it was too far into the game.
The Family
modkilll nacho
I do not want to play in a game with someone like that.
Though iirc he did this same thing in angel mafia and got lynched d1 as a town pr
The Family
Except it's not empty, because there is a discrepancy. DERF DERF
So, you are pushing a townie to fully claim because... you want to speculate on flavor/game setup? Good lord
I'm hoping that maybe if I type in caps it will magically make you smarter. Actually, that is my role, if I post at you in caps you magically become smarter. MAGIC
Did you even read my earlier posts? Maybe he is lying to draw a scum kill. Maybe he is incapable of understanding written words and misunderstood his PM. Maybe RobRoy just forgot that part of my PM and he's about to send me clarification. But most importantly, unless you have strong reason to think Vezok is scum in one of these scenarios, there is ZERO benefit to making him clarify further.
Freaking what? Of course everybody is already paying attention to it. You think the scum saw him go "If you kill me, Nacho dies too" and didn't take note? You think drawing ATTENTION is the issue? That's already done, I'm just trying to stop you cones from completely outting both our roles for no reason.
Then make a case for that, because as far as I'm concerned, there is almost no chance he is scum.
Explain why or stuff it.
Because I'm telling you I think it would be disastrous. Hold me accountable for this later, but we are not going further right now.
We've already been over this. He could be bulletproof as long as I live and trying to draw scum fire. I really didn't want to say that, but it's possible. Do I really need to speculate more or can your imagination figure out some more possibilities?
So?
So, you argue that him claiming isn't disastrous by... bringing up a time when a townie lied and forcing him to claim was disastrous. Splendid job, I'm a go grab a smoke while you finish making my case for me.
Except apparently he has left some stuff out/got some stuff wrong. You can't say "he has already claimed, what's the harm in him claiming more?" when clearly something is off with the claim.
This is like if some dude claimed vanilla, and then a watcher said he saw him target another person, but also got flavor that made him think he was definitely town. Would you really go "What's your flavor? Claim the rest of your role!" to the guy who lied but is probably town?
You act like I'm being all subtle in telling you talking about this is terrible.
vote: Tordeck
You ask for me to be replaced if you don't like me. Asking for me to be modkilled is the absolute scummiest.
Also your face is fat and nobody loves you.
Flame infraction. Exercise some maturity, already.
Maybe you should think first, decide after, instead of just deciding and not thinking.
Also I never did once imply that I thought he was more likely scum than not. The chance that he's scum and screwed up is not that large; but he already full claimed and offered to claim flavour - what's wrong in getting clarification? Your "best" scenario is that he's lying and trying to draw a night kill. Okay? You just ☺☺☺☺ed it up by saying you think he's wrong, and now you're blaming us for it? If he's terrible at reading then what's wrong with what we're asking?
Oh sorry I forget. Your entire "thinking before deciding" problem.
Implying in all our PM's it says you're town.
Implying we would've voted against the magic thing.
Hahahaha oh wow. Are you serious? No you must just be trolling me.
Let's compare cases, I'll even color code it for you in case your reading comprehension fails you:
1. vezo says something will happen if we vote for it, and that this something also does this.
2.We vote for it, something happens.
3. this doesn't happens.
As opposed to what you're doing:
1. you say something.
2. ???
3. Profit
Nice misrep and ad-hom. I'm the last person on this site that'd want to mass claim day 1.
I know that typing slowly is hard for you since you actually have to think about what you're typing instead of just slapping your hands onto the keyboard.
He's either my new least favorite player, or he's a Jester. I'm thinking the latter.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
The #6 does not refer to an in-game rule, it is merely an idea I'm tossing around in my head that might explain what the deal is between nacho and vezo.
Also: Wizards are very mysterious....
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I don't feel bad about that.
...
Your position appears to be that since you think he lied, he has another role you don't want him claiming. Normally lying is pretty bad and worth exploring. You however are sure he is town because he added you, a townie, into the game, thus it would make no sense for him to be scum according to you.
What makes me think it could be a possible mafia role is that he claims you die if he dies. This makes you easy to get rid of - you're somewhat of an illusionary bonus in that case.
Why would a scum role add a town role to the game? Multitude of reasons. Perhaps he gets a bonus as long as you are alive, some ability or protection as a balancing effect. Your reaction itself shows a meta response - maybe the benefit is the town pants bought for adding a player into the game. I also once ran a game with a witch who had a familiar that died if the witch died, and both were mafia. I've seen all these kind of things before, scum reviving townies in ways that benefit them.
Are these the most common of roles? No, not really. But then again, neither is adding someone to the game 24 hours in. I'm not versed well in what happens at MTG Salvation but I've hosted games with effects similar to Vez's claim that had scum behind them.
I'm sorry but I fail to see what's so incredibly stupid about this. Perhaps if you stopped harassing me and tried explaining things after you learned what I was actually thinking, I could recant and change my mind.
Of course people were going to notice it. But you jumping up and down over and over is just going to turn it into a bigger issue. It's like going up to the media and denying something instead of saying nothing at all.
Also - Vez is the one who's already "outted" himself. If there's anyone you should be furiously pissed at it's him, not me.
Hrm. All right. If you say so, I suppose for the moment I'm all right with him not sharing the flavor.
What Vez says and does later though could change my mind.
A pretty horrible plan if so. He's likely to be doctor protected and not be hit by mafia, and it comes at the cost of exposing you as confirmed town.
He's already fully claimed or he lied, Nacho. Asking for someone to claim flavor isn't ridiculous when they've already claimed their role. C'mon, you know no one is going to want people to full claim just to speculate for the hell of it. There's no need to go there.
Up until this point you hadn't explained your position well that you think he is actively lying and has an entire role to not claim, thus our confusion.
Actually we forced him to claim because we were planning to lynch him because he said he couldn't answer arguments against him and because he was active lurking. We didn't randomly ask him to go claim. That's just standard procedure.
The point I'm trying to make is that lying is an anti-town move because it so often backfires, so you tend to see liars more often as scum than town. This does not mean all people who lie are scum, but it's definitely a bad sign and worth looking into.
Again, you're arguing a full claim that has not been dispensed, I was referring to flavor for an already full claimed role.
That's generally bad.
I am being too subtle in my attempts to talk about your unsubtle behavior?
I think this is the crux of the argument here. I am of the opinion that this is worth looking into because leaving out stuff/getting stuff wrong is suspicious. You probably agree, but assume he has to be town because he added you into the game and you think only town roles would do that. I've seen roles that were not town add town back to the game or revive town, and I've seen roles that were town that added a scum to the game, so I'm willing to entertain the idea he might be scum - and from my perspective, asking a player who's already full claimed who _offered flavor_ doesn't seem unreasonable.
If this is some elaborate gambit for our own good that I'm somehow too "stupid" to see, I'm a bit perplexed as to how asking for the flavor would hurt. Vez already offered it. If it is a complex gamble, he probably isn't going to full claim real flavor after a lie but give us another lie to sustain the gamble.
Nacho, if you could avoid being rude and calm down, we could have a productive discussion. I don't think either of us are idiots and if you tried to understand what I was saying/thinking better, you could communicate to ME better what you want done and possibly experience success and what you want.
Or you could just call me an idiot.
Would depend on the gamestate and how the player acted.
Vez has come out and posted that Nacho, regardless of how he acts, is confirmed town. Asking for him to be modkilled when (as Nacho points out himself) he could be replaced out, is very anti-town. What's weird is that you also point out he was town in another game where he did the same thing, like you had experience with it before.
In the same vein Zionite there's not really a good reason to vote for Nacho right now.
I hope Nacho simply cools off. If he continues, he'll simply be replaced out or banned. If he continues and isn't, then I'll replace out myself because there are better things to do with my time than fight with hostile people on the Internet.
Do you really think he's a jester?
...
Some questions.
On _this_ site, has there ever been a game where a non-town revived or added a town player to the game?
Is RobRoy a known bastard mod or hosted any bastard games?
I'm assuming jesters are hated here and rare...?
...and by latter I clearly meant former: I'm not liking him at all right now.
@PK: I have played in a few games with vez, I know he's impulsive, rash, and misreads PM's. I can invision a few scenarios where he would lie about being merely "french vanilla" and him claiming flavor could have negative consequences that he didn't anticipate.
@Nacho: This whole situation was brought about by you contradicting his claim that you die when he does. If you figured he lied because he's bulletproof or something, and discussion of the topic would hinder his grand scheme, why then did you come out and counter him?
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
As for Ves - as I said with Nacho before, I'm fine for dropping for now. Thanks for the background info though.
Dude I am totally a jester please vote for me.
You should feel bad about your broken game that the town could only win by accident and cooperating with scum.
You really have no idea.
Okay, this isn't working. Vezok screwed up something awful and I was trying to salvage things a bit. There isn't a contradiction in the role PMs, I was just trying to give the scum some WIFOM for their NK. That apparently Vezok's role (or similar) has been scum before is something I hadn't considered. At this point, I think enough of the contradictions in my bluff have been pointed out, plus some doubt in Vezok's townieness, PLUS the fact that I may have only been scaring protection roles off leads me to just give it up.
In the future, if somebody you have no reason to distrust is saying "let's not talk about this, we can deal with it later", maybe it's a good idea to listen. Or maybe if I had just said that very clearly in the first place, this would have gone better.
Sorry for insulting Prophet, he actually seems like a reasonably intelligent guy. Everybody else is being a whiny girl.
You seriously need to calm down or go find a new hobby, because you won't last in this environment acting like that, I assure you.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Makes sense.
And no worries Nacho, it's all good between you and me. These things happen. You probably were in a foul mood due to what Vez did.
At least now we have somewhere to start in terms of actual gameplay.
A contradiction is not an implicit trust.
Your tears, oh I can taste them.
My spite knows no bounds.
For the sake of the game, you and everyone else should just get over it.
Nice ad hom. Vote stays.
Your words cut me, Tycho.
@MM: I brought up the contradiction and then said it was okay. Unless you had some reason to strongly think me and Vezok are scum, then you pressing the point was horribly anti-town. For instance, if Vezok had been doing some gambit, you ruined it. It turned out I was the one running a gambit, and you ruined that.
You are a ruiner QED
It's not ad hom, it was truth. I've asked several respected mods on another site, and they all agree that your setup was too swingy and badly imbalanced. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings. I never said the game wasn't fun.
And not taking it like a ***** doesn't mean responding in kind. I could've flamed Nacho, but instead I opened up an actual dialog with him and he respected that. It's not exactly hard to defend your own opinions or thoughts without being an instigator yourself.
As for Nacho - he knows to stop and I think he will. If not, well, consequences will never be the same.
I have indicated that I was mistaken in my choice of words, I do not think you are a Jester.
This is highly un-called-for, distasteful, rude, and downright incorrect.
So your grand plan was to screw the situation more? Mission accomplished!
Everything would have been fine if you hadn't contradicted him or been as belligerent as you've been. The whole reason anyone wanted to know anything more was because you created a scenario in which everyone was confused. In the future, you should think about how people are naturally going to react to things before posting them.
...
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I used to read MiseTings back in 2006. My original site's meta was essentially based on bastard modding inspired by Dantes.
That's pretty cool.
Does that mean you won't vote for me? ;__;
How many mods do I need to poll for you to see you're wrong? Anyway, I only brought it up because clearly Zionite has a grudge from that game.
No, my plan was to put doubt in the minds of the scum and for intelligent townies to let it go for now. I was so adamant about dropping it because I expected (and still do) Vezok to come back and be like "whaaa?! of course we both die lolz"
Shrug. I was trying my best to make up for Vezok's massive screw up. I guess I shouldn't have been expecting the benefit of doubt from people who despise me.
People seem to be under this false presumption that if they close theirs eyes and wish really hard, all the difficult people in life can just be whisked away like magic. I think this site could be a really quality place to post and play some mafias if there wasn't this desire to stamp out all undesirable elements. Undesirables are a necessary part of any society. See, I'm helping you by making you feel better about yourself as compared to me! Let's be BFFs!
DANTES
Most of that crowd moved on to GoodGamery, but man it just isn't the same.
The games were/are fun, but as you could predict, often not balanced well. (Some spectacularly so.) And essentially every game was bastard like Dantes. Pretty crazy place.
Then the Wizards of the Coast switched to that godawful new site and it killed everything in my little subforum. I share your pain, Nacho. It never was the same.
My "..." was there because I had originally put about 20 different things there, but decided they all served no purpose but to start a flame war.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
...but the future refused to change
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
@nacho You seem like you could be a fun guy to play Mafia with if you dropped the five year old mentality. It serves no purpose other than to take fun away from others. And even if you really are that much better than everyone else, you don't need to come off it the way you are.
Onto vez. I think its too early to call his alignment. There is wayyyy too much WIFOM at this point to come up with a logical decision for why the PR's don't match. Just keep a close eye on him the rest of the game to see if anything he does (and he will do something) indicates his alignment.
Vez says he's Town, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. I think his whole gambit-gone-wrong serves to actually reinforce that. I may not like his playstyle, but his reasoning seems to come from a Townie mindest. He was trying to the best he could in the situation. I don't agree with his decision to come out and counter vez to create WIFOM, but it makes no sense whatsoever to do that as scum. Scum would have taken the opportunity to ride vez's assurance, and would have loved for the Town to devote PR's to saving him. Unfortunately I'm convinced he's Town.
As such, I don't want him lynched or modkilled, but I wouldn't argue against a forced replacement.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
As for vezo pulling a gambit, I already said that you'd have ruined it the second you pointed out the contradiction. You disagree, I disagree. Okay sure fine. Doesn't matter who was running the gambit really. There'd always be doubt in our minds that "oh what if they're scum gambitting hurr durr" in all this confusion, whereas actual scum don't have that doubt.
Seeing as how you just made a Chrono Trigger reference I can forgive and forget.
@PK:
Respect was too strong a word.
Spice up your life a little. Pure arguing without insults get's stale. Get's the blood boiling (please no arguments about rationality vs emotion in the context of mafia :)).
Next time.
I don't see any reason Vezok isn't confirmed town for this.
18 players? I thought this was a mini... What the hell did I sign up for?
Oh no. Not this again.
Spoilers: They're scumbuddies.
Vote Tordeck. You are trying to plant suspicion where there is none. Hell, YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT YOURSELF.
Spoilers: He made a misplay.
This... is not what I'd expect you to say.
oh god it's you again
HI I'M SEPPEL