I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
I still expect to be chewed out somewhat by the scums though. >_>
Anyway,
This game started off with 1 item discarded and 65 items in play, with a few more that could be added mid-game via some of the copy items themselves.
There are 12 transferable Items on the Town's side and 6 transferable Items on the Mafia's side. Around 28% of the total Items are transferable, not taking into account Items that are capable of being transferred via abilities not of their own. Not like a traditional Items game, I know, where items almost have no restriction in movement. I would contend that they do exist however, like WoD's IDF Mafia.
Kill Flavors
1. Red Goo – slimed
2. Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust – incinerated
3. Divine Essence – exploded
4. Insignia of the Wind – shredded
5. Executioner – beheaded
6. Devourer – devoured
7. Red Baton – bloodied
8. Fanatic – strangled
9. Quencher – bloodied
10. Mafiakill – impaled
Yes, I know that's a lot of different kill sources. <_<
Magwald Gimmick Theories Floating Around
Arimnaes
Seppel
Red_Omega
Joboman
vezokpiraka
Cyan
It made me sad though that AL claimed. I would have dearly loved to see Magwald exists as a separate entity.
I also had an ongoing bet with AsianInvasion on whether a Town would actually use the Devourer, it being a very large stick and small carrot item. I won that bet.
I was extremely paranoid about about the potential abuse of Secret Script and Questing Gem. -_-
Seven Jewels was originally thought to be an easy shortcut for the SK. Unfortunately, that was not so.
Food for thought: It's not nice being an experienced Town player surviving to late game, what with your fellow Towns getting increasingly paranoid about you even if you have a solid play so far.
Anyway, for those curious, Vulnerability status initially was designed with 2 additional rules:
1. If a player replaced out, the player who replaced in will gain the Vulnerability status.
2. If a player has been prodded 3 times, that player will gain Vulnerability status.
Both AI and Wein have managed to convince me that such rules are extremely unfair and that they didn't really penalize the players who initiated them, but rather those kind-hearted souls who replaced in, causing me to scrap them.
That would require alternate ways of introducing the Vulnerability status into the game, and the Bouncer as well as the SK's Interpretation were born.
Lastly, the game was designed with 13 Town and 5 Mafia, an 18-player game. AI managed to convince me to up that number to 20 on the grounds the game favored Mafia, so I decided to add in 1 more Town and 1 SK.
I had it down to Cyan or a player who hates me. I'm phone posting so ill have more but I was baiting the scum. Discuss
I don't hate you, in fact I enjoyed our last game together (Rax's). The problem is that my character was sort of a dick / gangster and I was playing in character, so since you were in my crosshairs I'm sure it seemed personal. It wasn't though.
It made me sad though that AL claimed. I would have dearly loved to see Magwald exists as a separate entity.
I'll still use it from time to time, actually I created Magwald to improve my admittedly bad town play from Ogre Mafia / Homestar Runner Mafia. While I broke out of my tunnel visioning habit of games prior, I didn't abandon my gambiting ways.
I still expect to be chewed out somewhat by the scums though. >_>
OM NOM.
All in all, it wasn't that bad. If Atlseal hadn't been a cop, we'd have been ok. If Night 4 hadn't been a worst case scenario, and instead we'd had an extra misvig or two, atl investigating a corpse and Shalako not dying, we'd have been ok. We just got PoE'd out a bit too early for it to have been a totally balanced game. TFF actually killing more people would have been nice, I suppose
Also, Vampyr's role was insane.
Quote from Dagger »
I was extremely paranoid about about the potential abuse of Secret Script and Questing Gem. -_-
This game was a lot of fun to watch, even if the scum team imploded/got buried by cop investigations. I agree in retrospect that some of the roles were probably a bit too much, and there were way too many vig abilities in general, but it's a learning experience for all of us, right?
After three kills on Night One, a zero-kill Night was probably the funniest thing that could have happened.
Good job, everyone! Special props to atlseal and Ecophagy for spectacular play throughout!
I did too, hopefully we can have a Conflux 2.0 in the future. I'd be willing to reprise my role.
You'll have to keep waiting for a long long time then.
As a general rule, I don't tend to make a version 2.0 of any game I have hosted before. Yes, that means no Goo 2.0 as well. I do have a few games down the pipeline that I work on whenever I have some spare time and am in the mood to do so, but all those are of different flavors and mechanics design-wise.
I'll still use it from time to time, actually I created Magwald to improve my admittedly bad town play from Ogre Mafia / Homestar Runner Mafia. While I broke out of my tunnel visioning habit of games prior, I didn't abandon my gambiting ways.
I just derive a guilty pleasure in keeping everyone constantly guessing.
All in all, it wasn't that bad. If Atlseal hadn't been a cop, we'd have been ok. If Night 4 hadn't been a worst case scenario, and instead we'd had an extra misvig or two, atl investigating a corpse and Shalako not dying, we'd have been ok. We just got PoE'd out a bit too early for it to have been a totally balanced game. TFF actually killing more people would have been nice, I suppose
Also, Vampyr's role was insane.
Standard super saint or bomb is boring. I like the active variant better.
I didn't define what a "word" is. My paranoid mind was thinking cipher system, codes, mashing of words, weird punctuations usage, binary, etc. Well, you know what atlseal is working as. -_-"
My guesses, but you Misrep me! I put Vezok at odds of a billion to one.
I never named you though. You did so yourself.
Well, some more thoughts here. I have had 2 concerns expressed of me about the misleading nature of this game.
First is that for a Normal, this game is unnaturally complex. I am aware of that. Even AI contended that this was best run as a Specialty rather than as a Normal, but I persisted. I did not think this game has the flavor coherence to be FTQ-ed or PCQ-ed for one. This game is just essentially at its core a mish-mash of roles rather than a setup with an overarching theme and design. And my Normal slot was coming up rather fast anyway. So I decided to just host this game as a Normal. To compensate, I warned about the complexity of the setup in the sign-up thread on how this could actually be run as a Specialty. But apparently, it didn't really register for all in the excitement. -_-
Second is the vanilla claim I made for all players in the sign-up thread as well. In here, I had two concerns expressed of it. The first is that for all the vanilla claim, it seemed as if every player is a power role with really complex parts that can be moved around. This was addressed in the earlier paragraph. The second is that the existence of non-item ability like mafiakill is in the game even when I claimed every player is a vanilla. That is true. I would contend here though that Mafia has always been a scum group with inherent abilities like mafiakill and nighttalk, and that this has always stay true even in an all-vanilla game with all-vanilla town versus all-vanilla mafia. That was my reasoning for separating these two abilities out from the items. An additional concern I had was the reluctance to basically turn item investigative roles into near-cops as well were I to itemize mafia abilities like those.
Standard super saint or bomb is boring. I like the active variant better.
Just the NK thing with Lure would have been ok. Strong, but not broken. The lynch bomb as well made the whole thing basically impossible to deal with. I'm not sure Axel's paranoia would have been enough to get him lynched.
This also reminded me, did the items with no abilities have any hidden powers? Or were they just red herrings? If so, what was the reasoning behind their inclusion?
After three kills on Night One, a zero-kill Night was probably the funniest thing that could have happened.
Very. Considering the fact that there are about 10 different ways to kill a player in this game.
Okay, more on the game design.
Conflux was the result of self-reflection on Goo actually. While Goo had an overarching flavor and mechanical theme with its own high points, some of the roles were actually rather bulky and inelegant, even though it was designed off based on the restriction of said mechanics. As was noted in the post-game of Goo, a certain amount of the town power roles were rather useless in combating the scums and mostly existed to play off on the variant of mechanics that existed in that game. In addition, the amount of coordination needed for the town to function properly in-game causes the collapse of certain traditional play in a standard mafia game, almost immediately outing the important town power roles to the scums a few days in.
Conflux was a design trying to approach from a different direction than Goo. Rather than starting off with an overarching mechanic, Conflux takes the roles design ground-up. A cop that saves his info? tick. A bomb that only self-redirects? tick. A compulsive vig that screams SK? tick. An ultimate evil town lich? tick. etc. and so on and so forth. Then start balancing. Anything missing can be filled into the few remaining slots as new roles. Then only add in the specific flavors. Tweak and brush. No coordination among the town power roles? Not really an issue. No coordination is needed for every town to be useful. No vanilla here either. Everyone has free reign at night. Multiple checks and stops were implemented to keep the game from being TOO swingy, but by its very nature, the game is still swingy if everything goes right or wrong for a certain team.
Still, I was satisfied with the end product, though upon further inspection, I probably let in a few too many vigging roles. -_-
Just the NK thing with Lure would have been ok. Strong, but not broken. The lynch bomb as well made the whole thing basically impossible to deal with. I'm not sure Axel's paranoia would have been enough to get him lynched.
To safeguard against quicklynch. You have no idea how agonized I was giving the Mafia the -1 to lynch ability. Granted, it only affects Vulnerable players, but it's not really wise to give the mafia something that can mass manipulate the lynch threshold, especially if no town will ever know of it if the mafia decided to keep silent. It's just unfortunate that Magwald's gambit actually worked against Alpha. >_>
This also reminded me, did the items with no abilities have any hidden powers? Or were they just red herrings? If so, what was the reasoning behind their inclusion?
Red herrings. As potential false vanilla item claims for scums or towns who wish to gambit on their own items with abilities. Also, to mask things like the Lidless Eye.
I assumed the Red Herring Followers were for my role.
It's not. Actually, the best Follower for you to copy would either be Fanatic or Devourer. I actually face-palmed when you missed the Devourer by a hairsbreadth.
It's just unfortunate that Magwald's gambit actually worked against Alpha. >_>
To be honest, I thought AL's (wow, thought he was Az :p) gambit was actually him figuring out that I was the cop and that I was trying a "first post of the day was my result" thing.
I'm very happy that I existed as long as I did as the cop. Oh, now I want to go back to my logic phrases see if there was anything wrong with that logic - I don't actually think there is.
I may have to keep charts like the one I was building in other games as it may be the best way for me to keep track of the information going around.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I absolutely adored this game and the setup. I loved my role as well, it was just so elegant and riddled with options. I need to fully read the setup, but i felt it was overall balanced. The cop role was just played perfectly by Atlseal. Bravo! I would have potentially made the eye inflict Vulnurability as well, to parallel the doc role and give a drawback to such a potentially powerful role. As claimed in the game, i felt like i knew what the eye was doing i just didn't know if it was coming from the scum or town.
Shalako's shroud was also something i felt was obviously on a scum, due to the amount of kills floating around in the game.
That being said, i do not think the town wins this without AL's balls of diamond gambit. Atlseal, why did you not counterclaim Magwald? What made you trust him?
Anyway, Gold Stars to Atlseal, Magwald, and Sepiriel for awesome play on the town side. Gold Star to Ecophagy for being great scum, shame you had to get blownout by a Cop. Gold Star to Dagger for yet another awesome setup and game.
Great game, Dagger. I had a lot of fun, even if I did sorta disappear at times.
@atleasl: You said that you thought I might have guessed what was going on. Actually I had no clue. When I first received the eye, I didn't know what to make of it, my first thought was that you were a watcher. And I wasn't sure if that was a good thing or not, figuring it might be possible for a mafia watcher to be around looking for power roles.
When DYH came out he was a tracker, I felt that it was very likely you were a watcher and most likely town aligned. To find out you were a full cop was a bit surprising.
@Axel: So what was it that had you on my case for most of the game?
@TFF: Why didn't you lie about me targeting you? With me in the game, there was no way you were going to win the game. The last thing I expected was you to be the SK after not taking that chance to mislynch me.
I thought Eco played an excellent game. Never for a moment suspected him as scum.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Atlseal, why did you not counterclaim Magwald? What made you trust him?
If you go back and read, I was the only one to come in with a healthy dose of skepticism about the cop ability. Anyway, even if he wasn't, there's no reason to counter claim (especially that early). Besides, like I said, I thought he figured out I was the cop and was merely presenting what he thought was my result without revealing me.
@atleasl: You said that you thought I might have guessed what was going on. Actually I had no clue. When I first received the eye, I didn't know what to make of it, my first thought was that you were a watcher. And I wasn't sure if that was a good thing or not, figuring it might be possible for a mafia watcher to be around looking for power roles.
Well, I stand corrected.
====
Echo the bravo to Eco. If I weren't the cop, I would have had him as town the whole game.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I meant to ask, why'd you choose me? I was fairly confident your read on me was strong enough to get me through the night.
Haha, because I wanted to make sure. To be frank, I had this sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind all game: Why are Axelrod and Ecophagy still alive? I would have copped Axelrod, but that would have been permanent, so I was more or less trying to confirm you out to PoE the scum. Such is life o_O.
Also, ironically, Vampyr's targeting me with his lure N1 worked better than had I been able to send it through to dkd.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Haha, because I wanted to make sure. To be frank, I had this sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind all game: Why are Axelrod and Ecophagy still alive? I would have copped Axelrod, but that would have been permanent, so I was more or less trying to confirm you out to PoE the scum. Such is life o_O.
Boo hiss. I always live long in games - I average about 80% of any game I've been in. Oh well, thems the breaks - without Shalako, I'm not sure I could have taken the game anyway.
Why's that? Just to be able to trust a role that wards people away?
Well, had I been able to cop dkd, I would have come out right away with the information. With just getting town results, I was better able to narrow down scum possibilities, plus, I got to confirm the super saint.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
@Axel: So what was it that had you on my case for most of the game?
Hey, I wasn't lying when I laid it out against you. That's the way I felt. Unlike SOME people, though, (who shall remain nameless) I usually don't flat out call someone "scum" when I don't actually know it because I'm always leaving open that possibility that they're not. I just identify what I don't like/find suspicious. Didn't like the lynch vote on jskura and you have to admit, the Pirate thing was a bit eerie.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It's not. Actually, the best Follower for you to copy would either be Fanatic or Devourer. I actually face-palmed when you missed the Devourer by a hairsbreadth.
Yeah I took it over the "evil" follower for the Super Town pointstm
I mean Untargetable Cop.Com`on why would a scum take that.
Like it said it was not intended, i had not considered the rb would also exhaust your untargetability (now excuse me while i gloat at my awesomeness :p)
I personally loved the flavor of this game, well done Dagger
Agreed, Dagger you have a regular in me for any game you host
I was extremely paranoid about about the potential abuse of Secret Script and Questing Gem. -_-
I had actually thought the secret would be something like "Town_X_X_X_X_X ok? <3 byez"
@Eco: I lol at the fact i was so wrong and yet so right!!!!
Props to RR for buttering me up early game.
I had not thought Mags to be AL mainly because the RP looked so different (as in the rp in Mags was abyssmal whereas actual AL's in the other games was much different), So yeah i was thinking Seppel, dunno why... maybe the avatar?
Finally im so glad the town decided not to lynch me instead of RR i know calling Roleblocker most people would have immediately assumed mafia so go town for not letting stereotypes get to you! (the irony being that i completely let the stereotype get me once shalako claimed :p)
Finally, i hate that this thread explodes into action at 4-5am!!!!:argh:
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Fun game. Well planned and done, Dagger. There seemed to be no major dramas
Probably slightly pro-town and the SK role a little underpowered (despite getting the cover of being my role's apparent counterpart). But after a bad first day and night for the town, Laquatus' gambit plus competent play from the town thereafter got the job done.
Hey Axel, I actually read you correctly for once! Granted, only because I metagamed myself to assume my scum read on you was wrong, but still. First time ever?
I'm very happy that I existed as long as I did as the cop. Oh, now I want to go back to my logic phrases see if there was anything wrong with that logic - I don't actually think there is.
I don't think so, either. However, most of your "if-then" arguments used false "if" inputs so they weren't really relevant.
When you wrote "eye" instead of "I" when replying to Vampyr (I'd search for it but MTGS can't search for words under four letters for some reason) I thought it was kind of a dead giveaway, but that's something you had to be looking for, probably.
@Dagger: A player who shall not be named requests that you name official MVP awards.
I thoroughly enjoyed everything about this game. I was actually trying to play as Townie DKD would have played, and dug my own grave because of it. I wasn't trying to keep AI around for any particular reason, I just really didn't think Mags was Town. Oh well, learning experience.
I thoroughly enjoyed everything about this game. I was actually trying to play as Townie DKD would have played, and dug my own grave because of it. I wasn't trying to keep AI around for any particular reason, I just really didn't think Mags was Town. Oh well, learning experience.
For me you where clinched as scum the moment you started questioning the idea of scums being able to roleblock or disrupt in any way, this to me read as inside knowledge, incidentally this was also the reason why i was unsure between RR and WwaB later on
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Although, this was a please to watch from behind the scenes after dying. I've actually never done well as a JOAT. Yay for the win, boo for not being in the game past day 1 again.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Although, this was a please to watch from behind the scenes after dying. I've actually never done well as a JOAT. Yay for the win, boo for not being in the game past day 1 again.
Word of advise: Next time paraphrase as much as possible and give as much detail as possible within that paraphrasing.
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
When you wrote "eye" instead of "I" when replying to Vampyr (I'd search for it but MTGS can't search for words under four letters for some reason) I thought it was kind of a dead giveaway, but that's something you had to be looking for, probably.
Oh yeah, this.
I got the hint when atlseal posted it, knowing, at that time, no one else would. But I figured down the line it'd be a dead give away.
I thought posting it as "I" would have worked and maybe wouldn't have been so easy to pick up on.
But eh, it worked well enough.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Also look at the actions the night I died, Hilarius!
Lastly, I should've known something was up once Ecophagy started responding early to scum hunting based on the wagons. But alas, the gambit cost me any credibility. I realized after my first attack post on mags it was either him town or the best gambit ever. And a gimmick wouldnt try something like that. I had nothing else.
Question: If I had used my spell on the Stones of Communion would they have automatically gone back the the highest poster the next night, or could I have used my spell to discard them?
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
@Dagger: A player who shall not be named requests that you name official MVP awards.
I can guess who that player is.
At any rate, I am not in the habit of granting MVPs (or LVPs for that matter) because I firmly believe how each player has contributed to his or her respective team is very subjective and can only be judged by the players themselves.
That said, if you asked for my personal opinion, I think atlseal has provided the most critical turning point for the town in this game. The fact that he survived to Day 4 with 3 investigations on 3 different townies who were still alive on Day 4 effectively cleared 1/3 of the town by that day itself. Random lynch by that point would net a 50% hit rate, which was really fantastic in itself. Not to mention of course that on Night 4, atlseal managed to nab a scum Eco thought of to be town by virtually the entire town. On the scum side, Eco practically cruised through the entire game based on his behavior alone and ONLY caught because of a lucky cop investigation on him. Were atlseal not to exist, I can easily see an endgame state where the town basically paranoid themselves to a loss while Eco danced around at the edge never really suspected at all.
That's not to say the others lacked contribution however. I was personally in awe of Magwald's gutsy gambit against AI and how Sepiriel managed to just disable Shalako on the night a vigshot was aimed at Shalako. Also, Shalako made a fantastic play on Day 2 with regards to both the Stones of Communion and the Thousand-Face Servant that basically made him felt really town to everyone else. It was a pity though that the credibility he earned then was shot to hell when he began to disappear more and more often in the latter game days. Of course, it was also a miracle in itself that both RafK and Axel managed to survive to the endgame.
Question: If I had used my spell on the Stones of Communion would they have automatically gone back the the highest poster the next night, or could I have used my spell to discard them?
I actually thought about that. I should have added a line in the Stones of Communion that only allowed it to be moved once per night, and thus were you to use Resonance to transfer it to yourself, it would have stayed with you till the following night, allowing you to destroy it before it moved again. At least, that was what would have happened were you to do exactly that.
That also reminds me, Sepiriel's Cackle of Crows actually roleblock everything EXCEPT the Mafiakill. I kept shaking my head when it was assumed otherwise to the point of arguing against a neutered dkd's lynch.
Lastly, I would like to address the post counts matters sub-theme in this game. Stones of Communion's primary purpose was to inform the Town that the Mafia has daytalk. While I like the scums having daytalk, I acknowledge the fact as well that daytalk is a dangerous ability for the scums to have in the late-game when they can essentially coordinate speedlynches, thus effectively reducing the amount of days the town effectively have. So, in my mind, I wanted the scums to have daytalk is the early phases of the game and to lose it in the latter phases of the game. That would mean itemize the ability altogether, since it also gives the town the capability of being aware of it as well to counter its late-game effect somewhat. Also, I wanted an element of tenseness involving said item, so I allowed it to move around based on post counts. Racing for the highest post count is not needed in this game, because once the information on daytalk is exposed, there is no further need.
Bouncer on the other hand that punishes low post counts is also not something that really need to be played around against. Vulnerability by itself does absolutely nothing and gaining Vulnerability status multiple times doesn't increase or decrease anything. It doesn't stack so a single player can just keep taking on Vulnerability status from the Bouncer if need be. Or dC could volunteered for that job with his immunity item. The only thing Vulnerability does is to enable a subset of rather lethal items that actually cared about it. And if all those items are discarded or used up, everyone with Vulnerability status are exactly the same as the standard players. That said, I am aware though that some players were rather irritated at the fact that post counts actually mattered in this game and I would probably take a less troublesome spin on it next time were I to revisit a mechanic that cares about post counts.
That said, if you asked for my personal opinion, I think atlseal has provided the most critical turning point for the town in this game. The fact that he survived to Day 4 with 3 investigations on 3 different townies who were still alive on Day 4 effectively cleared 1/3 of the town by that day itself. Random lynch by that point would net a 50% hit rate, which was really fantastic in itself. Not to mention of course that on Night 4, atlseal managed to nab a scum Eco thought of to be town by virtually the entire town.
Strange as it may seem, my plan all along was more or less that (as we discussed briefly in PM. I didn't want to cop players that I thought were prime targets for a mafia or vig NK (which is why it took me so long to get around to the Axelrod/Ecophagy pair).
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Strange as it may seem, my plan all along was more or less that (as we discussed briefly in PM. I didn't want to cop players that I thought were prime targets for a mafia or vig NK (which is why it took me so long to get around to the Axelrod/Ecophagy pair).
And to answer one of your previous question, the Black Book would indeed show Neutral were you to investigate TFF, though it would not specify TFF as a Serial Killer.
I wanted to PM you about that, but I ASSumed that it would work the way I stated and was a waste. It would have helped immensely to have that last caveat, but We still won.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
12-11? I'm losing track
Redoing currently
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12-11? I'm losing track
I still expect to be chewed out somewhat by the scums though. >_>
Anyway,
This game started off with 1 item discarded and 65 items in play, with a few more that could be added mid-game via some of the copy items themselves.
There are 12 transferable Items on the Town's side and 6 transferable Items on the Mafia's side. Around 28% of the total Items are transferable, not taking into account Items that are capable of being transferred via abilities not of their own. Not like a traditional Items game, I know, where items almost have no restriction in movement. I would contend that they do exist however, like WoD's IDF Mafia.
Kill Flavors
1. Red Goo – slimed
2. Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust – incinerated
3. Divine Essence – exploded
4. Insignia of the Wind – shredded
5. Executioner – beheaded
6. Devourer – devoured
7. Red Baton – bloodied
8. Fanatic – strangled
9. Quencher – bloodied
10. Mafiakill – impaled
Yes, I know that's a lot of different kill sources. <_<
Magwald Gimmick Theories Floating Around
Arimnaes
Seppel
Red_Omega
Joboman
vezokpiraka
Cyan
It made me sad though that AL claimed. I would have dearly loved to see Magwald exists as a separate entity.
I also had an ongoing bet with AsianInvasion on whether a Town would actually use the Devourer, it being a very large stick and small carrot item. I won that bet.
I was extremely paranoid about about the potential abuse of Secret Script and Questing Gem. -_-
Seven Jewels was originally thought to be an easy shortcut for the SK. Unfortunately, that was not so.
Food for thought: It's not nice being an experienced Town player surviving to late game, what with your fellow Towns getting increasingly paranoid about you even if you have a solid play so far.
Anyway, for those curious, Vulnerability status initially was designed with 2 additional rules:
1. If a player replaced out, the player who replaced in will gain the Vulnerability status.
2. If a player has been prodded 3 times, that player will gain Vulnerability status.
Both AI and Wein have managed to convince me that such rules are extremely unfair and that they didn't really penalize the players who initiated them, but rather those kind-hearted souls who replaced in, causing me to scrap them.
That would require alternate ways of introducing the Vulnerability status into the game, and the Bouncer as well as the SK's Interpretation were born.
Lastly, the game was designed with 13 Town and 5 Mafia, an 18-player game. AI managed to convince me to up that number to 20 on the grounds the game favored Mafia, so I decided to add in 1 more Town and 1 SK.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I did too, hopefully we can have a Conflux 2.0 in the future. I'd be willing to reprise my role.
I thought the RPing was a dead giveaway but everyone kept assuming I was someone else. I even said multiple times that I wasn't a veteran player.
I don't hate you, in fact I enjoyed our last game together (Rax's). The problem is that my character was sort of a dick / gangster and I was playing in character, so since you were in my crosshairs I'm sure it seemed personal. It wasn't though.
I'll still use it from time to time, actually I created Magwald to improve my admittedly bad town play from Ogre Mafia / Homestar Runner Mafia. While I broke out of my tunnel visioning habit of games prior, I didn't abandon my gambiting ways.
How were you baiting us? I don't think it really worked - we could basically ignore you, because there was no way Magwald wouldn't vig you.
OM NOM.
All in all, it wasn't that bad. If Atlseal hadn't been a cop, we'd have been ok. If Night 4 hadn't been a worst case scenario, and instead we'd had an extra misvig or two, atl investigating a corpse and Shalako not dying, we'd have been ok. We just got PoE'd out a bit too early for it to have been a totally balanced game. TFF actually killing more people would have been nice, I suppose
Also, Vampyr's role was insane.
How could the Scrpit be abused?
My guesses, but you Misrep me! I put Vezok at odds of a billion to one.
After three kills on Night One, a zero-kill Night was probably the funniest thing that could have happened.
Good job, everyone! Special props to atlseal and Ecophagy for spectacular play throughout!
You'll have to keep waiting for a long long time then.
As a general rule, I don't tend to make a version 2.0 of any game I have hosted before. Yes, that means no Goo 2.0 as well. I do have a few games down the pipeline that I work on whenever I have some spare time and am in the mood to do so, but all those are of different flavors and mechanics design-wise.
I just derive a guilty pleasure in keeping everyone constantly guessing.
Standard super saint or bomb is boring. I like the active variant better.
I didn't define what a "word" is. My paranoid mind was thinking cipher system, codes, mashing of words, weird punctuations usage, binary, etc. Well, you know what atlseal is working as. -_-"
I never named you though. You did so yourself.
Well, some more thoughts here. I have had 2 concerns expressed of me about the misleading nature of this game.
First is that for a Normal, this game is unnaturally complex. I am aware of that. Even AI contended that this was best run as a Specialty rather than as a Normal, but I persisted. I did not think this game has the flavor coherence to be FTQ-ed or PCQ-ed for one. This game is just essentially at its core a mish-mash of roles rather than a setup with an overarching theme and design. And my Normal slot was coming up rather fast anyway. So I decided to just host this game as a Normal. To compensate, I warned about the complexity of the setup in the sign-up thread on how this could actually be run as a Specialty. But apparently, it didn't really register for all in the excitement. -_-
Second is the vanilla claim I made for all players in the sign-up thread as well. In here, I had two concerns expressed of it. The first is that for all the vanilla claim, it seemed as if every player is a power role with really complex parts that can be moved around. This was addressed in the earlier paragraph. The second is that the existence of non-item ability like mafiakill is in the game even when I claimed every player is a vanilla. That is true. I would contend here though that Mafia has always been a scum group with inherent abilities like mafiakill and nighttalk, and that this has always stay true even in an all-vanilla game with all-vanilla town versus all-vanilla mafia. That was my reasoning for separating these two abilities out from the items. An additional concern I had was the reluctance to basically turn item investigative roles into near-cops as well were I to itemize mafia abilities like those.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Just the NK thing with Lure would have been ok. Strong, but not broken. The lynch bomb as well made the whole thing basically impossible to deal with. I'm not sure Axel's paranoia would have been enough to get him lynched.
This also reminded me, did the items with no abilities have any hidden powers? Or were they just red herrings? If so, what was the reasoning behind their inclusion?
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Very. Considering the fact that there are about 10 different ways to kill a player in this game.
Okay, more on the game design.
Conflux was the result of self-reflection on Goo actually. While Goo had an overarching flavor and mechanical theme with its own high points, some of the roles were actually rather bulky and inelegant, even though it was designed off based on the restriction of said mechanics. As was noted in the post-game of Goo, a certain amount of the town power roles were rather useless in combating the scums and mostly existed to play off on the variant of mechanics that existed in that game. In addition, the amount of coordination needed for the town to function properly in-game causes the collapse of certain traditional play in a standard mafia game, almost immediately outing the important town power roles to the scums a few days in.
Conflux was a design trying to approach from a different direction than Goo. Rather than starting off with an overarching mechanic, Conflux takes the roles design ground-up. A cop that saves his info? tick. A bomb that only self-redirects? tick. A compulsive vig that screams SK? tick. An ultimate evil town lich? tick. etc. and so on and so forth. Then start balancing. Anything missing can be filled into the few remaining slots as new roles. Then only add in the specific flavors. Tweak and brush. No coordination among the town power roles? Not really an issue. No coordination is needed for every town to be useful. No vanilla here either. Everyone has free reign at night. Multiple checks and stops were implemented to keep the game from being TOO swingy, but by its very nature, the game is still swingy if everything goes right or wrong for a certain team.
Still, I was satisfied with the end product, though upon further inspection, I probably let in a few too many vigging roles. -_-
To safeguard against quicklynch. You have no idea how agonized I was giving the Mafia the -1 to lynch ability. Granted, it only affects Vulnerable players, but it's not really wise to give the mafia something that can mass manipulate the lynch threshold, especially if no town will ever know of it if the mafia decided to keep silent. It's just unfortunate that Magwald's gambit actually worked against Alpha. >_>
Red herrings. As potential false vanilla item claims for scums or towns who wish to gambit on their own items with abilities. Also, to mask things like the Lidless Eye.
It's not. Actually, the best Follower for you to copy would either be Fanatic or Devourer. I actually face-palmed when you missed the Devourer by a hairsbreadth.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
To be honest, I thought AL's (wow, thought he was Az :p) gambit was actually him figuring out that I was the cop and that I was trying a "first post of the day was my result" thing.
I'm very happy that I existed as long as I did as the cop. Oh, now I want to go back to my logic phrases see if there was anything wrong with that logic - I don't actually think there is.
I may have to keep charts like the one I was building in other games as it may be the best way for me to keep track of the information going around.
I absolutely adored this game and the setup. I loved my role as well, it was just so elegant and riddled with options. I need to fully read the setup, but i felt it was overall balanced. The cop role was just played perfectly by Atlseal. Bravo! I would have potentially made the eye inflict Vulnurability as well, to parallel the doc role and give a drawback to such a potentially powerful role. As claimed in the game, i felt like i knew what the eye was doing i just didn't know if it was coming from the scum or town.
Shalako's shroud was also something i felt was obviously on a scum, due to the amount of kills floating around in the game.
That being said, i do not think the town wins this without AL's balls of diamond gambit. Atlseal, why did you not counterclaim Magwald? What made you trust him?
Anyway, Gold Stars to Atlseal, Magwald, and Sepiriel for awesome play on the town side. Gold Star to Ecophagy for being great scum, shame you had to get blownout by a Cop. Gold Star to Dagger for yet another awesome setup and game.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Great game, Dagger. I had a lot of fun, even if I did sorta disappear at times.
@atleasl: You said that you thought I might have guessed what was going on. Actually I had no clue. When I first received the eye, I didn't know what to make of it, my first thought was that you were a watcher. And I wasn't sure if that was a good thing or not, figuring it might be possible for a mafia watcher to be around looking for power roles.
When DYH came out he was a tracker, I felt that it was very likely you were a watcher and most likely town aligned. To find out you were a full cop was a bit surprising.
@Axel: So what was it that had you on my case for most of the game?
@TFF: Why didn't you lie about me targeting you? With me in the game, there was no way you were going to win the game. The last thing I expected was you to be the SK after not taking that chance to mislynch me.
I thought Eco played an excellent game. Never for a moment suspected him as scum.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
If you go back and read, I was the only one to come in with a healthy dose of skepticism about the cop ability. Anyway, even if he wasn't, there's no reason to counter claim (especially that early). Besides, like I said, I thought he figured out I was the cop and was merely presenting what he thought was my result without revealing me.
Well, I stand corrected.
====
Echo the bravo to Eco. If I weren't the cop, I would have had him as town the whole game.
I meant to ask, why'd you choose me? I was fairly confident your read on me was strong enough to get me through the night.
Haha, because I wanted to make sure. To be frank, I had this sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind all game: Why are Axelrod and Ecophagy still alive? I would have copped Axelrod, but that would have been permanent, so I was more or less trying to confirm you out to PoE the scum. Such is life o_O.
Also, ironically, Vampyr's targeting me with his lure N1 worked better than had I been able to send it through to dkd.
Boo hiss. I always live long in games - I average about 80% of any game I've been in. Oh well, thems the breaks - without Shalako, I'm not sure I could have taken the game anyway.
Why's that? Just to be able to trust a role that wards people away?
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Well, had I been able to cop dkd, I would have come out right away with the information. With just getting town results, I was better able to narrow down scum possibilities, plus, I got to confirm the super saint.
Hey, I wasn't lying when I laid it out against you. That's the way I felt. Unlike SOME people, though, (who shall remain nameless) I usually don't flat out call someone "scum" when I don't actually know it because I'm always leaving open that possibility that they're not. I just identify what I don't like/find suspicious. Didn't like the lynch vote on jskura and you have to admit, the Pirate thing was a bit eerie.
Yeah I took it over the "evil" follower for the Super Town pointstm
I mean Untargetable Cop.Com`on why would a scum take that.
Pretty townie.
Yeah I didn`t really even consider Passing it because of that.
Things seem to go bad when we are on the same scum team:(
Mafia Chat
-_-;;
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Wins/Losses/Draws
13/2/1
Agreed, Dagger you have a regular in me for any game you host
I had actually thought the secret would be something like "Town_X_X_X_X_X ok? <3 byez"
@Eco: I lol at the fact i was so wrong and yet so right!!!!
Props to RR for buttering me up early game.
I had not thought Mags to be AL mainly because the RP looked so different (as in the rp in Mags was abyssmal whereas actual AL's in the other games was much different), So yeah i was thinking Seppel, dunno why... maybe the avatar?
Finally im so glad the town decided not to lynch me instead of RR i know calling Roleblocker most people would have immediately assumed mafia so go town for not letting stereotypes get to you! (the irony being that i completely let the stereotype get me once shalako claimed :p)
Finally, i hate that this thread explodes into action at 4-5am!!!!:argh:
Probably slightly pro-town and the SK role a little underpowered (despite getting the cover of being my role's apparent counterpart). But after a bad first day and night for the town, Laquatus' gambit plus competent play from the town thereafter got the job done.
Hey Axel, I actually read you correctly for once! Granted, only because I metagamed myself to assume my scum read on you was wrong, but still. First time ever?
I don't think so, either. However, most of your "if-then" arguments used false "if" inputs so they weren't really relevant.
When you wrote "eye" instead of "I" when replying to Vampyr (I'd search for it but MTGS can't search for words under four letters for some reason) I thought it was kind of a dead giveaway, but that's something you had to be looking for, probably.
@Dagger: A player who shall not be named requests that you name official MVP awards.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
For me you where clinched as scum the moment you started questioning the idea of scums being able to roleblock or disrupt in any way, this to me read as inside knowledge, incidentally this was also the reason why i was unsure between RR and WwaB later on
Although, this was a please to watch from behind the scenes after dying. I've actually never done well as a JOAT. Yay for the win, boo for not being in the game past day 1 again.
Word of advise: Next time paraphrase as much as possible and give as much detail as possible within that paraphrasing.
Oh yeah, this.
I got the hint when atlseal posted it, knowing, at that time, no one else would. But I figured down the line it'd be a dead give away.
I thought posting it as "I" would have worked and maybe wouldn't have been so easy to pick up on.
But eh, it worked well enough.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
Well, yeah, it was strange enough to stand out. I just wasn't counting on someone making a note of it :P.
Also look at the actions the night I died, Hilarius!
Lastly, I should've known something was up once Ecophagy started responding early to scum hunting based on the wagons. But alas, the gambit cost me any credibility. I realized after my first attack post on mags it was either him town or the best gambit ever. And a gimmick wouldnt try something like that. I had nothing else.
Question: If I had used my spell on the Stones of Communion would they have automatically gone back the the highest poster the next night, or could I have used my spell to discard them?
12-11? I'm losing track
I can guess who that player is.
At any rate, I am not in the habit of granting MVPs (or LVPs for that matter) because I firmly believe how each player has contributed to his or her respective team is very subjective and can only be judged by the players themselves.
That said, if you asked for my personal opinion, I think atlseal has provided the most critical turning point for the town in this game. The fact that he survived to Day 4 with 3 investigations on 3 different townies who were still alive on Day 4 effectively cleared 1/3 of the town by that day itself. Random lynch by that point would net a 50% hit rate, which was really fantastic in itself. Not to mention of course that on Night 4, atlseal managed to nab a scum Eco thought of to be town by virtually the entire town. On the scum side, Eco practically cruised through the entire game based on his behavior alone and ONLY caught because of a lucky cop investigation on him. Were atlseal not to exist, I can easily see an endgame state where the town basically paranoid themselves to a loss while Eco danced around at the edge never really suspected at all.
That's not to say the others lacked contribution however. I was personally in awe of Magwald's gutsy gambit against AI and how Sepiriel managed to just disable Shalako on the night a vigshot was aimed at Shalako. Also, Shalako made a fantastic play on Day 2 with regards to both the Stones of Communion and the Thousand-Face Servant that basically made him felt really town to everyone else. It was a pity though that the credibility he earned then was shot to hell when he began to disappear more and more often in the latter game days. Of course, it was also a miracle in itself that both RafK and Axel managed to survive to the endgame.
I actually thought about that. I should have added a line in the Stones of Communion that only allowed it to be moved once per night, and thus were you to use Resonance to transfer it to yourself, it would have stayed with you till the following night, allowing you to destroy it before it moved again. At least, that was what would have happened were you to do exactly that.
That also reminds me, Sepiriel's Cackle of Crows actually roleblock everything EXCEPT the Mafiakill. I kept shaking my head when it was assumed otherwise to the point of arguing against a neutered dkd's lynch.
Lastly, I would like to address the post counts matters sub-theme in this game. Stones of Communion's primary purpose was to inform the Town that the Mafia has daytalk. While I like the scums having daytalk, I acknowledge the fact as well that daytalk is a dangerous ability for the scums to have in the late-game when they can essentially coordinate speedlynches, thus effectively reducing the amount of days the town effectively have. So, in my mind, I wanted the scums to have daytalk is the early phases of the game and to lose it in the latter phases of the game. That would mean itemize the ability altogether, since it also gives the town the capability of being aware of it as well to counter its late-game effect somewhat. Also, I wanted an element of tenseness involving said item, so I allowed it to move around based on post counts. Racing for the highest post count is not needed in this game, because once the information on daytalk is exposed, there is no further need.
Bouncer on the other hand that punishes low post counts is also not something that really need to be played around against. Vulnerability by itself does absolutely nothing and gaining Vulnerability status multiple times doesn't increase or decrease anything. It doesn't stack so a single player can just keep taking on Vulnerability status from the Bouncer if need be. Or dC could volunteered for that job with his immunity item. The only thing Vulnerability does is to enable a subset of rather lethal items that actually cared about it. And if all those items are discarded or used up, everyone with Vulnerability status are exactly the same as the standard players. That said, I am aware though that some players were rather irritated at the fact that post counts actually mattered in this game and I would probably take a less troublesome spin on it next time were I to revisit a mechanic that cares about post counts.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Strange as it may seem, my plan all along was more or less that (as we discussed briefly in PM. I didn't want to cop players that I thought were prime targets for a mafia or vig NK (which is why it took me so long to get around to the Axelrod/Ecophagy pair).
And to answer one of your previous question, the Black Book would indeed show Neutral were you to investigate TFF, though it would not specify TFF as a Serial Killer.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
12-11? I'm losing track