Did he not? I could have sworn I saw him make a post stating dC was probably town, too. Maybe I'm confused.
Yeah, upon re-reading, I was mistaken. Apologies, kpaca.
But I see that atlseal is voting Cyan simply for this reason. As it's completely obvious Cyan just forgot dC was mod-confirmed, which is odd but not impossible, I'm gonna Vote: atlseal for a horribly opportunistic vote.
I think he's faking his PR to make it harder for people to read him.
He hasn't done this as town in any games I've seen but everyone knows about the time he did it as scum.
I think he's faking his PR to make it harder for people to read him.
He hasn't done this as town in any games I've seen but everyone knows about the time he did it as scum.
Honestly, I doubt he'll keep it up once he has something to latch on to rather than just feel around with. Az likes having fun in new ways day 1 because it always creates new reactions. And new reactions = harder to cover your true feelings.
Oh, and heads up, Cyan has never read me wrong. When it gets to mid game and he pegs me as town, you can bet that the only way it won't be true is if we're buddies. And even then he'll bus me.
I'm not liking how Zindabad barns Skander after it looks like people are vouching for me being town and agrees my posts are similar. And then after kpaca (and Arcadic) posts his support of the wagon, goes and agrees with Cyan that my posts are different (using the very same posts as before at that).
Really? Cyan states some doubt against dC's towniness, and this is how AI and Ged react? It's like you have no faith in him as a player. I, for one, would like to believe that a town Cyan would consider dC mod-confirmed town.
Vote: Cyan
This is an extremely opportunistic vote. This is also a nice sentence, especially considering it only comes up after some pressure:
I think he's faking his PR to make it harder for people to read him.
He hasn't done this as town in any games I've seen but everyone knows about the time he did it as scum.
Az likes to have his fun at the beginning of games. I don't know specifically about faking PR's but you were in Doha and he behaved in an odd manner there as well (as town).
I think he's faking his PR to make it harder for people to read him.
He hasn't done this as town in any games I've seen but everyone knows about the time he did it as scum.
I can speak from experience in saying faking a PR does not mean you're scum. Plus, it's Az. He's always silly D1, no? Votes on Az for this seem silly.
Who wants to soft-claim?
I'm always down for a good soft claim. Any ideas on what?
Az likes to have his fun at the beginning of games. I don't know specifically about faking PR's but you were in Doha and he behaved in an odd manner there as well (as town).
I think he was role-playing as the Iron Chef in Doha. I had forgotten about that (unsurprising, after all the Traitor shenanigans). Moving right along...
Name, preferably. If we wanted to take it a step further (although it seems a bit early to be doing this) we could discuss if and how our characters are related to one another in the story. Maybe another Day.
Other options include gender or whether your role PM references Vincent/the Red Faction in general, and if so, if it's in a positive or negative light. Any other ideas?
atlseal reminds me of myself. I don't think I want to vote him.
In the meantime, multiple people have expressed suspicion of Arcadic, who seems to be disengaged from the conversation while supporting major wagons, but no one has voted him. Let's rectify that.
Every time I see someone use 'D1' as a justification it makes me cringe. The fact that you only brought up 'it's D1' after some pressure makes me think it's an after-the-fact excuse and not what you were thinking when you voted Cyan.
Name, preferably. If we wanted to take it a step further (although it seems a bit early to be doing this) we could discuss if and how our characters are related to one another in the story. Maybe another Day.
Other options include gender or whether your role PM references Vincent/the Red Faction in general, and if so, if it's in a positive or negative light. Any other ideas?
Nothing off the top of my head.
Why, did you hear that something happened to him?
Well, he lives in Egypt doesn't he? Quite a bit of turmoil there atm. They've cut off all Internet access.
Well, he lives in Egypt doesn't he? Quite a bit of turmoil there atm. They've cut off all Internet access.
Oh, I didn't make that connection. It's easy to take things like the Internet for granted when we live in the US. I hope he's OK too. Hopefully the government restores the Internet connections before zindabad has to be replaced.
Yeah, I realized Zindabad lives in Egypt tonight too. Hoping he is okay...
Pro-soft claim, although I really don't know what it could be. Name?
It was obvious that Cyan forgot that dC was mod-confirmed. Atlseal is slightly scummy for trying to push a wagon on something so small. But he clearly sees where he went wrong, and appears to be genuine about it. So ever so slightly scummy.
That out of the way, present affairs. I don't think Azrael's PR is legit, and he is just having fun, but that really isn't scummy at all. Its a null tell mostly. He still can convey ideas and communicate cleanly, so all it could be doing is giving him a bit of fun.
I think before pursuing any other wagon we should get the soft-claim out of the way, seeing as many people support it already. Then we can go from there to try and find the best wagon to take on next.
I really hope you're town, because your humor disarms me.
Early-game insinuation that he's town.
Quote from atlseal »
Really? Cyan states some doubt against dC's towniness, and this is how AI and Ged react? It's like you have no faith in him as a player. I, for one, would like to believe that a town Cyan would consider dC mod-confirmed town.
Vote: Cyan
How does other players' doubt make Cyan scum? Your post makes it seem like you're pointing fingers at AI and Ged, yet you vote Cyan (quite rashly, too).
Quote from atlseal »
Ok, I'm an idiot.
Unvote
Here you're pretty quick to recant under pressure from other players, without at first defending your choice either.
Quote from atlseal »
He phrased it in a way that caused the lightbulb in my head to go off as to where the flaw in my logic was.
I'm not convinced.
Vote atlseal
Please understand I'd be happy to revise my opinion when stronger evidence is presented.
I preface this by saying, slight drunk post incoming and Unvote:
Cyan and atlseal both come out of this exchange as moderately town in my eyes. Cyan made an honest mistake and atlseal jumped on it and backed off.
Out of those who voted atlseal since the exchange began (kpaca, Skander, Shadowfury9) Kpaca seems the most townie, Skander seems to follow a common tell he's caught onto, and Shadowfury9 seems to be acting opportunistically.
Vote: Shadowfury9
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atlseal's reaction is a non-tell in my book. Once he realized that I was being truthful, he had no case to continue, regardless of his own alignment.
Unrelatedly, I still think Syrenz is scum. Not sure what happened to that wagon. His vote on Zindabad reads particularly scummy to me. I feel like it is reminiscent of how he acted on Anita Blake(where we were both scum), but I'll have to double check to be certain.
I don't really see what we would be soft-claiming. For a soft-claim to be in the 'possible gains outweighs the possible risk' category, there has to be some kind of easy theme/underlying mechanic for people to claim. I don't think that is the case in this game.
I was going to barn Jobie last night, but I thought I'd wait until I didn't also have to barn his preface. The last line of shadow's post in particular reads like "hey guys, did I find a case that's good enough to convince you? If I didn't, that's fine, I'll try someone else later."
[quote]How does other players' doubt make Cyan scum? Your post makes it seem like you're pointing fingers at AI and Ged, yet you vote Cyan (quite rashly, too).
That was me trying to beat them over the head with a clue x 4. Admittedly, I look like the fool now, but whatever.
Here you're pretty quick to recant under pressure from other players, without at first defending your choice either.
I did defend my choice until TFF showed me where the fault lay.
I'm not convinced.
... is really funny considering
Please understand I'd be happy to revise my opinion when stronger evidence is presented.
Shadow, do you have any previous mafia experience?
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
Thanks to everyone who expressed concern for me. I left Egypt years ago and now live in the United States (after first spending time in the UK), so my internet isn't actually cut off.
And saying that most of my defense has been taken up by other players instead of myself is a complete fabrication.
Not in the least. Your contribution to the defense consisted of "what me do?" It was Skander who came in with an actual example of the sort of situation you are now talking about and Azrael who attacked your attackers.
@Zindabad: I asked Cyan that because if you actually read more, there's a difference in the circumstances behind it. In Doha mafia I came under attack for plainsight lurking. At first I defended myself and attempted to explain why I wasn't (although tbh I actually kinda was). AI insisted I was. I insisted I wasn't. AI insisted I was scum. I insisted I wasn't. That's kind of how it went. I provided points explaining why I wasn't and I asked him to do a comparison between my town and scum games. AI didn't and discounted my responses. So I have AI shouting I'm scum and there's nothing else I can do except dismiss his case.
Here, however, I can logically explain why the allegations against me don't make sense, while I'm not yet being totally ignored. In Doha, I couldn't do anything except protest, while here I can still go through the points against me. And in Doha, the accusations of plainsight lurking were understadable, while the accusations being presented against me here, are not. I acknowledged the fact that I was asking mostly small questions, but I insisted that there was relevance behind them. I was indignant at unreasonable expectations and being ignored there, whereas here I do not see the case.
There are a lot of words in this quote and in the following paragraph, but you say very little. Here, you explain that the disparity in your responses in this game and Doha, which I outlined in post 115 and to which you have offered no rebuttal, is because of the disparity in the attacks.
I grant that the nature of the attacks is indeed different, but I submit that it makes no difference because your response is the telling factor in this case.
To your credit, there is extraordinarily little evidence of your behavior as scum when facing your accuser (although you did replace out of 2 of your 3 previous scum games), but here is what I managed to dig up and we can compare that to the tone of your responses as town in Doha: Anita Blake Mafia, while facing criticism of his claim:
I had a feeling that I would be killed on N1 given my part in the Jobo lynch and also that I was less likely a target for being protected than others so I wanted to use it as soon as possible. Was wrong about that though. Also something Malcolm said made me think he was a PR, I'll try to look back ad see if I can remember what that was.
I was kind of feeling arrogant at the time and that I was a great player for my part in lynching Jobo making me think that I was a threat to the scum and they would want to kill me. I figured Cyan would be much more likely to be doc'ed than I would.
I knew I had targeted Malcolm and whatever ability he had would be doubled, however I didn't think Malcolm could be the CL. He was a confirmed tracker and also I was thinking that he was a werewolf because my ability was successful and both MH and Cyan were indicating that the CL was definitely a vampire.
I don't see how, they were right about CL being a vampire.
He revealed his N2 target Cyan, who confirmed that he targeted who Malcolm said he did (Zionite). I don't see why any red flags should have popped up there.
He claimed tracker and it was confirmed that he was one. I really didn't see him being the CL and I didn't see a reason to reveal anything at that time.
I figured he was waiting to see if the people he targeted said they did something different than what he saw that they did and would counter them then in order to catch scum.
Heroes Mafia, while facing criticism of his wagon jump onto r_0:
The reason I left RO alone was because his behavior was exactly like it is in every game I've been in with him where he was town. I saw his hammer as scummy but not enough to lynch him over.
I don't see any of the strong language used in the town posts from Doha. In fact, I see a lot of what you yourself described as "logically explaining why the allegations don't make sense."
Oh, and look, here's some other evidence of how you responded to allegations as town, this time from the Asphodel Meadows:
Zindabad technically could also be scum from PoE as he's an american. But he is cleared from Zionite's ability. Cyouni could be scum from PoE, but he's cleared from giving someone an item on the same night that someone was killed. Until you can explain how he would be able to do that, then he was cleared and your PoE was complete nonsense. So do you have any explanation as to how he could have done that?
2. I'm the next person that should be PoE'd.
Firstly, did me making Cyouni unlynchable suddenly clear him from being scum in your mind? Your initial reasons for thinking he's scum are still crap, but nothing has changed that should be swaying you from that thought process. So your PoE is false.
Second, what happened to MMoD's info? The reason Cyouni was originally being PoE'd was for being an American. Unless you think I had the foresight to falseclaim in advance, I am not american.
And third, once you are dropping MMoD's info you have me, Shibui, AI who are all uncleared so your PoE again is false.
So explain why I'm being PoE'd please.
So yeah, your reactions to being attacked as town are, as my evidence indicates, completely different to how you claim you act in that situation, which in fact more closely resembles your responses to attacks against you when you are scum. Vote stands.
How does other players' doubt make Cyan scum? Your post makes it seem like you're pointing fingers at AI and Ged, yet you vote Cyan (quite rashly, too).
Here you're pretty quick to recant under pressure from other players, without at first defending your choice either.
I'm not convinced.
Vote atlseal
Please understand I'd be happy to revise my opinion when stronger evidence is presented.
Bad post followed by "I'm prepared to hope off this wagon if something else turns up."
Paw of Suspicion: Shadowfury
What is your mafia experience?
Quote from Zindabad »
Anita Blake Mafia, while facing criticism of his claim: Heroes Mafia, while facing criticism of his wagon jump onto r_0:
I don't see any of the strong language used in the town posts from Doha. In fact, I see a lot of what you yourself described as "logically explaining why the allegations don't make sense."
Your quotes presented here showing me responding to simple questions about my claim. In what context does it make sense for me to be shouting "Garbage" or dismissing simple questions about my claim? I was asked straightforward questions, to which I responded. Your stretching here is really bad and is indicative of your alignment (i.e. mafia).
Additionally, I like how you only read games that look like they can reinforce the points you are trying to make. I mean you look at Asphodel where you have to search around for posts in which I defend myself, instead of just reading a game in which my lynch should be prominent in your mind (considering it won you the game) and the relevant quotes easier to find?
LOTR 2 mafia:
Firstly some of my previous posts indicative of me being a cave troll:
Kpaca please clear this up and answer this truthfully:
1.Are you a cave troll?
2.Do you have a daykill and a nightkill?
I had figured him claiming cave troll in his first post was to let us other Cave Trolls know he did not actually have a daykill. I saw no reason to call Kpaca out on his fake daykill originally. At this point I felt it needed to be cleared up and was prepared to call him out on this if he answered yes to both questions.
Quote from Syrenz »
Besides, he claimed Uruk-Hai with flavor, and seeing as there was already one Uruk-Hai (MMoD) then it's fully possible that there are one or two more.
I knew there were 3 cave trolls so I was open to the possibility of there being one or two more Uruk.
I did not mention it yesterday because I didn't want to out a power role. But the thing is, everyone had been doing rereads and it's hard to miss this out of Zindabad's 20 or so posts. I thought it was weird that scum killed Cyan the next night after he said that instead of him but I figured they might have missed this. But now it's even harder to miss after everyone's rereads and despite that Zindabad still hasn't been killed. It's also pretty thoughtless to go and out yourself as a power role like that and from what I understand Zindabad is smart enough not to do that.
As for his claimed role, Frodo is not ZDS or WoD. The other options, i.e. Kpaca, Zebi, myself, Jerubaal, have all now posted after this and not claimed Frodo, which most likely means Frodo doesn't exist and Zindabad is making this up. As Zindabad himself said Frodo can join with the town and win it all so there's no reason not to have claimed if you were Frodo.
Unvote, Vote Zindabad
I think we still need claims from Jerubaal and ZDS.
@WoD: I think Zebi's claimed the same thing as you, do you claim the same flavor?
Quote from ZDS »
Aren't you implicitly calling Cyan an idiot ? Or is your memory this selective ?
I don't understand why Cyan did that as well. Or DV for that matter. Zindabad stuck out though because he did it after 3 people already, his explanation for trying to draw out a nightkill seems possible, I still don't see why he's alive though.
Quote from ZDS »
Last thing: why did your vote agaist Zebi disappear without a sound ?
I felt there is more pointing to Zindabad atm, and you orc people should be able to check your flavor with each other.
My other choice for Frodo is still Syrenz. He never did answer me about that, and I think his push on me might be to try to get rid of me before I can go into night and convert him.
No I am not Frodo. My push on you is primarily because I don't think Frodo exists. If we're both alive next night feel free to try to convert me if you really do have this ability and you don't believe me.
Zindabad, Zebi
next:
ZDS I'm biased against because of him trying to lynch me but his posts have seemed town to me and I don't want to vote him just because you have a gut feeling or whatever.
kpaca I'm not sure about. I understand him not having the same flavor piece as me as it seems that not everyone was given the same thing for their role, but I figured he would at least be described as fearsome and strong and living in the mountains of moria, so I don't know.
Syrenz easily, and I still dislike zind's claim. IMHO one of the orcs is scum, but I keep flopping between ZDS and Zind. Would strongly prefer to lynch one of my top two.
Zind didn't claim orc. And why do you think I'm scum?
Where's the strong language? Where is anything except explaining myself and questioning why people are voting me?
I said why I don't like the case on Fox. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
There's my "Mom what did I do" thing you're bringing up.
Oh, and look, here's some other evidence of how you responded to allegations as town, this time from the Asphodel Meadows:
I used the word garbage there. Correct. Not using the word garbage is not something that is a proven scumtell for me. (Sure I've never really been attacked as scum, so you can't say that it isn't indicative of me being scum, but I've just provided proof of me being attacked and not using strong language as town and your 'similarities' to my scum games are complete crap, as I explained.)
So yeah, your reactions to being attacked as town are, as my evidence indicates, completely different to how you claim you act in that situation, which in fact more closely resembles your responses to attacks against you when you are scum. Vote stands.
Try again.
-----
Zindabad is selectively reading, misrepresenting (in his 'similarities' to scum games) and going wherever it looks like people are going. Zindabad is scum.
---
@Cyan: This is kind of off-topic, but read my last post (the last post?) in Heroes Mafia. My defense of RO is only something I did because it was true and you were wrong to attack me in Heroes.
-----
I'm unsure about atlseal right now.
I will be busy for the next bit while I finish up Ogre Mafia.
@Syrenz: Zindabad found games that supported his scum read on you here from multiple games. I'm not sure why you're even bringing up LotR2 there. You weren't the one under pressure there, so how is that supposed to be relevant to every other example, where you WERE under pressure?
Maybe you should try again.
And shadowfury is probably just another gimmick. That or it's someone with 40 posts that joined 3 months ago that somehow A)found the mafia forum before any others and B)hasn't posted anywhere else on the site. And has never played another game of mafia, but didn't sign up for any basics, but signed up for a Specialty.
Like zindabad a lot. (Also, I'm glad to hear he'll be staying with us.)
Unsure about Syrenz. zindabad being town doesn't automatically make Syrenz scum, but both the case and Syrenz's responses to it seem valid.
Dislike votes on shadowfuryix. I'm a bit surprised that he claims that this is his first game given how he presented his case against atlseal, but the post itself waves a pretty big "misguided townie" flag.
Azrael makes Crazy Glue look sane.
No one is interested in Arcadic at this time? Shame.
You're right that I might have bitten off more than I can chew.
If you truly feel this way, there is no shame in replacing out. Large games are very difficult to keep up with, simply because there are so many people to keep up with.
I will have more to say once I re-read since I have actual internet now (:dance:).
I would bet quite a bit of money that shadowfury is a gimmick, and had already been treating him as such; not a noob, and actually an experienced and likely good player.
Quote from Jobie »
Shadowfury9 seems to be acting opportunistically.
Quote from mystery meat of doom »
/barn jobie
Vote; ShadowFury
I really don't like this vote, and the hypocrisy behind it is humorous. But you literally straight barn someone else, and then vote. And while what Jobie posted are somewhat legit points against shadowfury, they aren't nearly strong enough for people to straight barn them without adding anything else to the wagon.
At least Ged tried to being something else in with his vote, although he kind of just rephrases what was already said. Still it was something. Your vote, the 2nd on shadowfury at the time, wouldn't really be questioned when shadowfury flipped town because you would have been on the wagon so early. So there is a lot to gain. And if it doesn't, then you can easily unvote and say something similar to "The evidence against him didn't really amount to anything blah de blah unvote" and nobody would really question that either, because at that point it would probably be very true.
So, the opportunity to get on the early wagon against someone who is most likely to be town (I really don't see a bus possible here), with little potential to gain attention when he flipped town, in addition to not giving anything else to justify his vote, makes him look very scummy in my eyes.
I would bet quite a bit of money that shadowfury is a gimmick, and had already been treating him as such; not a noob, and actually an experienced and likely good player.
Looking at his post history, I doubt he's a gimmick. Most players who are gimmicks don't post elsewhere on the site.
Thanks to everyone who expressed concern for me. I left Egypt years ago and now live in the United States (after first spending time in the UK), so my internet isn't actually cut off.
Good to hear
I'm getting slightly lost in this Syrenz-meta argument (don't really see a huge difference between the different games) but I liked Syrenz's point that you accepted my initial meta read but then went back and reread it when the tide changed again. That doesn't read as genuinely trying to analyze his meta, that reads as fitting the meta to whatever read you want to have on him.
And shadowfury is probably just another gimmick. That or it's someone with 40 posts that joined 3 months ago that somehow A)found the mafia forum before any others and B)hasn't posted anywhere else on the site. And has never played another game of mafia, but didn't sign up for any basics, but signed up for a Specialty.
I thought he was a gimmick as well. That's kind of a key point here imo. If he's an experienced player then his post was extremely opportunistic. If he's a newb then it's not a big deal. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't know of anyone who's lied about being a gimmick (except for players that would be banned by outing themselves, i.e. jordman, naka).
I would bet quite a bit of money that shadowfury is a gimmick, and had already been treating him as such; not a noob, and actually an experienced and likely good player.
I really don't like this vote, and the hypocrisy behind it is humorous. But you literally straight barn someone else, and then vote. And while what Jobie posted are somewhat legit points against shadowfury, they aren't nearly strong enough for people to straight barn them without adding anything else to the wagon.
At least Ged tried to being something else in with his vote, although he kind of just rephrases what was already said. Still it was something. Your vote, the 2nd on shadowfury at the time, wouldn't really be questioned when shadowfury flipped town because you would have been on the wagon so early. So there is a lot to gain. And if it doesn't, then you can easily unvote and say something similar to "The evidence against him didn't really amount to anything blah de blah unvote" and nobody would really question that either, because at that point it would probably be very true.
So, the opportunity to get on the early wagon against someone who is most likely to be town (I really don't see a bus possible here), with little potential to gain attention when he flipped town, in addition to not giving anything else to justify his vote, makes him look very scummy in my eyes.
Lots to catchup on i see. For the record, because there are lots of people i haven't played with, I do the majority of my mafia posting and reading from mon-thurs.
Cyan, i did ask you a question i didn't see an answer for. Why call out Syrenz for the second time he placed a 2nd random vote, and not the first?
Atlseal is likely town from his Cyan exchange. Cyan's memory slip is null, simply because having a confirmed townie Day 1 is not the common.
Syrenz's responses to Zinda haven't really done much to change my opinion of him. His defense seems to be more "caught off guard" than a solid defense. There are lots of words, but very few actually are being used to defend himself well.
I'll have more time on monday to fully dive into Syrenz.
I don't see Descoures' vote as necessarily being random. Even if it is, a single random vote is meaningless. But a second vote on a random target is just too easy to hide a scum agenda behind.
Really though, mostly I just don't think his vote was random at all. Placing a second vote on someone that A)claimed miller and B)was just voted by a confirmed town(just because I forgot this, doesn't mean that Descoures did) really doesn't look like a random vote. I think that is just what Syrenz wanted it to appear as. Because he is scum.
I love adding folks to my scumlist left and right. I love that it's that much more interesting than a dry run.
You can certainly be clearer and more specific than this, and in fact you have a responsibility to be if in fact you are town and suspect me. Have a frown.
Azrael is a very good player. It's hard to get a wagon on him other than RVS.
What if he's scum? Can't be that hard to start a wagon on scum. I didn't like the wording in your earlier post that got us here, and I don't like the wording here, either.
I asked Az the question both to see his response and something else I forgot.
Oh, yeah? What was his response, what did it tell you, and REMEMBER WHAT YOU FORGOT AND GET BACK TO ME ON THAT.
Honestly, I doubt he'll keep it up once he has something to latch on to rather than just feel around with. Az likes having fun in new ways day 1 because it always creates new reactions. And new reactions = harder to cover your true feelings.
So, Az can't be scum, then? Az isn't goofy when he's scum?
Name, preferably. If we wanted to take it a step further (although it seems a bit early to be doing this) we could discuss if and how our characters are related to one another in the story. Maybe another Day.
Other options include gender or whether your role PM references Vincent/the Red Faction in general, and if so, if it's in a positive or negative light. Any other ideas?
Where does this get us, though? I'm not seeing the possible upside for us. Other than wasted time (and not a lot of it) I see no downside, but without a possibility of benefit I'm not in.
In the meantime, multiple people have expressed suspicion of Arcadic, who seems to be disengaged from the conversation while supporting major wagons, but no one has voted him. Let's rectify that.
Unvote Vote Arcadic
I am so lazy, I can't possibly be bothered to look up the multiple people who have expressed suspicion of Arcadic. In lieu of me doing work, I would like for you to point out these posts to me.
I had another question for you, but I've forgotten it, or forgotten why I shelved it, so I'm typing this to remind myself I need to track that down.
How does other players' doubt make Cyan scum? Your post makes it seem like you're pointing fingers at AI and Ged, yet you vote Cyan (quite rashly, too).
I don't mind this part.
Here you're pretty quick to recant under pressure from other players, without at first defending your choice either.
Why is this scummy?
Please understand I'd be happy to revise my opinion when stronger evidence is presented.
That's the sort of thing that's a given. The fact that it's in your post is a black mark, especially since it's the second sign minor thing I've gotten from you.
I actually signed up for King Arthur before this, and decided to do another. You're right that I might have bitten off more than I can chew.
What makes you say that?
Other crap on my list: I need to double-check a couple of things in the Syrenz-Zindabad catfight (Syrenz interperatation of the flow of events from his vote post, Zindabad's second presentation of the Syrenz scum meta). The first one I already looked at and felt the circumstances were different enough the tone and language differences wouldn't be reliable indicators (more specifically, Syrenz was being attacked deep into a frustrating game, and this attack was what was bringing us out of RVS, still a pretty relaxed environment).
Honestly, I doubt he'll keep it up once he has something to latch on to rather than just feel around with. Az likes having fun in new ways day 1 because it always creates new reactions. And new reactions = harder to cover your true feelings.
So, Az can't be scum, then? Az isn't goofy when he's scum?
I didn't say that. I said that's why he does silly things early game. It's why he started doing them as town, and the fact that it's a good cover for acting strangely as scum is merely a side effect.
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Yes, it is. I consider the whole doubt seed thing a scum tell and it is the perfect thing to explore D1.
Maybe it's the way I keep notes, but that's the sort of thing I would never forget.
Yeah, upon re-reading, I was mistaken. Apologies, kpaca.
But I see that atlseal is voting Cyan simply for this reason. As it's completely obvious Cyan just forgot dC was mod-confirmed, which is odd but not impossible, I'm gonna Vote: atlseal for a horribly opportunistic vote.
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Okay. Hmm. Let's try the question this way:
If Cyan is trying to cast doubt on dC, why would he immediately claim having forgotten, rather than, you know, actually trying to cast any doubt?
Ok, I'm an idiot.
Unvote
What do you think about Syrenz's vote?
I think he's faking his PR to make it harder for people to read him.
He hasn't done this as town in any games I've seen but everyone knows about the time he did it as scum.
kpaca is not mafia.
Who wants to soft-claim?
Honestly, I doubt he'll keep it up once he has something to latch on to rather than just feel around with. Az likes having fun in new ways day 1 because it always creates new reactions. And new reactions = harder to cover your true feelings.
I'm down.
Do not like.
Do like.
This is an extremely opportunistic vote. This is also a nice sentence, especially considering it only comes up after some pressure:
Unvote Vote atlseal
Az likes to have his fun at the beginning of games. I don't know specifically about faking PR's but you were in Doha and he behaved in an odd manner there as well (as town).
Sure. What do you have in mind?
What just happened here? What exactly about TFFs post has you re-thinking your stance?
I can speak from experience in saying faking a PR does not mean you're scum. Plus, it's Az. He's always silly D1, no? Votes on Az for this seem silly.
I'm always down for a good soft claim. Any ideas on what?
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The way he phrased it made me realize that if I was right, Cyan wouldn't have just said that he forgot it.
What did you mean by this^?
@Softclaim: Fine
i.e. - He phrased it in a way that caused the lightbulb in my head to go off as to where the flaw in my logic was.
I think he was role-playing as the Iron Chef in Doha. I had forgotten about that (unsurprising, after all the Traitor shenanigans). Moving right along...
Name, preferably. If we wanted to take it a step further (although it seems a bit early to be doing this) we could discuss if and how our characters are related to one another in the story. Maybe another Day.
Other options include gender or whether your role PM references Vincent/the Red Faction in general, and if so, if it's in a positive or negative light. Any other ideas?
Why, did you hear that something happened to him?
atlseal reminds me of myself. I don't think I want to vote him.
In the meantime, multiple people have expressed suspicion of Arcadic, who seems to be disengaged from the conversation while supporting major wagons, but no one has voted him. Let's rectify that.
Unvote
Vote Arcadic
Every time I see someone use 'D1' as a justification it makes me cringe. The fact that you only brought up 'it's D1' after some pressure makes me think it's an after-the-fact excuse and not what you were thinking when you voted Cyan.
Nothing off the top of my head.
Well, he lives in Egypt doesn't he? Quite a bit of turmoil there atm. They've cut off all Internet access.
What does this mean?
Oh, I didn't make that connection. It's easy to take things like the Internet for granted when we live in the US. I hope he's OK too. Hopefully the government restores the Internet connections before zindabad has to be replaced.
He seems to be honestly trying to scumhunt but making simple logical errors in the process that render his arguments less than sturdy.
I like this. Looks like you're actually reasoning through things and accepting and processing new info.
As for soft-claim, I'm always in favor.
Pro-soft claim, although I really don't know what it could be. Name?
It was obvious that Cyan forgot that dC was mod-confirmed. Atlseal is slightly scummy for trying to push a wagon on something so small. But he clearly sees where he went wrong, and appears to be genuine about it. So ever so slightly scummy.
That out of the way, present affairs. I don't think Azrael's PR is legit, and he is just having fun, but that really isn't scummy at all. Its a null tell mostly. He still can convey ideas and communicate cleanly, so all it could be doing is giving him a bit of fun.
I think before pursuing any other wagon we should get the soft-claim out of the way, seeing as many people support it already. Then we can go from there to try and find the best wagon to take on next.
I do have a case against Atlseal, though.
Early-game insinuation that he's town.
How does other players' doubt make Cyan scum? Your post makes it seem like you're pointing fingers at AI and Ged, yet you vote Cyan (quite rashly, too).
Here you're pretty quick to recant under pressure from other players, without at first defending your choice either.
I'm not convinced.
Vote atlseal
Please understand I'd be happy to revise my opinion when stronger evidence is presented.
Cyan and atlseal both come out of this exchange as moderately town in my eyes. Cyan made an honest mistake and atlseal jumped on it and backed off.
Out of those who voted atlseal since the exchange began (kpaca, Skander, Shadowfury9) Kpaca seems the most townie, Skander seems to follow a common tell he's caught onto, and Shadowfury9 seems to be acting opportunistically.
Vote: Shadowfury9
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
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Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Unrelatedly, I still think Syrenz is scum. Not sure what happened to that wagon. His vote on Zindabad reads particularly scummy to me. I feel like it is reminiscent of how he acted on Anita Blake(where we were both scum), but I'll have to double check to be certain.
Vote; ShadowFury
Never up for soft claim day 1.
vote shadowfuryxi
That was me trying to beat them over the head with a clue x 4. Admittedly, I look like the fool now, but whatever.
I did defend my choice until TFF showed me where the fault lay.
... is really funny considering
Shadow, do you have any previous mafia experience?
***
Not in the least. Your contribution to the defense consisted of "what me do?" It was Skander who came in with an actual example of the sort of situation you are now talking about and Azrael who attacked your attackers.
There are a lot of words in this quote and in the following paragraph, but you say very little. Here, you explain that the disparity in your responses in this game and Doha, which I outlined in post 115 and to which you have offered no rebuttal, is because of the disparity in the attacks.
I grant that the nature of the attacks is indeed different, but I submit that it makes no difference because your response is the telling factor in this case.
To your credit, there is extraordinarily little evidence of your behavior as scum when facing your accuser (although you did replace out of 2 of your 3 previous scum games), but here is what I managed to dig up and we can compare that to the tone of your responses as town in Doha:
Anita Blake Mafia, while facing criticism of his claim:
Heroes Mafia, while facing criticism of his wagon jump onto r_0:
I don't see any of the strong language used in the town posts from Doha. In fact, I see a lot of what you yourself described as "logically explaining why the allegations don't make sense."
Oh, and look, here's some other evidence of how you responded to allegations as town, this time from the Asphodel Meadows:
So yeah, your reactions to being attacked as town are, as my evidence indicates, completely different to how you claim you act in that situation, which in fact more closely resembles your responses to attacks against you when you are scum. Vote stands.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Anyway. The case on Syrenz just keeps getting better. GG Zindabad.
What's the point of this post? Are you just trying to keep all avenues open for lynching here?
Bad post followed by "I'm prepared to hope off this wagon if something else turns up."
Paw of Suspicion: Shadowfury
What is your mafia experience?
Your quotes presented here showing me responding to simple questions about my claim. In what context does it make sense for me to be shouting "Garbage" or dismissing simple questions about my claim? I was asked straightforward questions, to which I responded. Your stretching here is really bad and is indicative of your alignment (i.e. mafia).
Additionally, I like how you only read games that look like they can reinforce the points you are trying to make. I mean you look at Asphodel where you have to search around for posts in which I defend myself, instead of just reading a game in which my lynch should be prominent in your mind (considering it won you the game) and the relevant quotes easier to find?
LOTR 2 mafia:
Zindabad, Zebi
Where's the strong language? Where is anything except explaining myself and questioning why people are voting me?
There's also this in TAM:
There's my "Mom what did I do" thing you're bringing up.
I used the word garbage there. Correct. Not using the word garbage is not something that is a proven scumtell for me. (Sure I've never really been attacked as scum, so you can't say that it isn't indicative of me being scum, but I've just provided proof of me being attacked and not using strong language as town and your 'similarities' to my scum games are complete crap, as I explained.)
Try again.
-----
Zindabad is selectively reading, misrepresenting (in his 'similarities' to scum games) and going wherever it looks like people are going. Zindabad is scum.
---
@Cyan: This is kind of off-topic, but read my last post (the last post?) in Heroes Mafia. My defense of RO is only something I did because it was true and you were wrong to attack me in Heroes.
-----
I'm unsure about atlseal right now.
I will be busy for the next bit while I finish up Ogre Mafia.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
This is my first game, so yeah.
Maybe you should try again.
And shadowfury is probably just another gimmick. That or it's someone with 40 posts that joined 3 months ago that somehow A)found the mafia forum before any others and B)hasn't posted anywhere else on the site. And has never played another game of mafia, but didn't sign up for any basics, but signed up for a Specialty.
I actually signed up for King Arthur before this, and decided to do another. You're right that I might have bitten off more than I can chew.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Unsure about Syrenz. zindabad being town doesn't automatically make Syrenz scum, but both the case and Syrenz's responses to it seem valid.
Dislike votes on shadowfuryix. I'm a bit surprised that he claims that this is his first game given how he presented his case against atlseal, but the post itself waves a pretty big "misguided townie" flag.
Azrael makes Crazy Glue look sane.
No one is interested in Arcadic at this time? Shame.
If you truly feel this way, there is no shame in replacing out. Large games are very difficult to keep up with, simply because there are so many people to keep up with.
I will have more to say once I re-read since I have actual internet now (:dance:).
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I really don't like this vote, and the hypocrisy behind it is humorous. But you literally straight barn someone else, and then vote. And while what Jobie posted are somewhat legit points against shadowfury, they aren't nearly strong enough for people to straight barn them without adding anything else to the wagon.
At least Ged tried to being something else in with his vote, although he kind of just rephrases what was already said. Still it was something. Your vote, the 2nd on shadowfury at the time, wouldn't really be questioned when shadowfury flipped town because you would have been on the wagon so early. So there is a lot to gain. And if it doesn't, then you can easily unvote and say something similar to "The evidence against him didn't really amount to anything blah de blah unvote" and nobody would really question that either, because at that point it would probably be very true.
So, the opportunity to get on the early wagon against someone who is most likely to be town (I really don't see a bus possible here), with little potential to gain attention when he flipped town, in addition to not giving anything else to justify his vote, makes him look very scummy in my eyes.
Unvote Vote MMoD
Looking at his post history, I doubt he's a gimmick. Most players who are gimmicks don't post elsewhere on the site.
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Anyway. I think I'll side with Syrenz on this one. I don't like how zinda attacks him.
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What don't you like about it?
Ok then. Nothing else to respond to with respect to the case you put together?
Vote: shadowfuryix
New scum players seem to have the habitual need to build bad cases to justify a vote.
shadowfuryix (4) - Jobie, MMoD, Ged, atlseal
atlseal (3) - kpaca, Skander, shadowfuryix
MMoD (2) - PM, Anaklusmos
syrenz (2) - Cyan, zindabad
zindabad (2) - syrenz, TFF
Arcadic (1) - AsianInvasion
AsianInvasion (1) - desCoures
Cyan (1) - Az
With 22 alive, it is 12 to lynch.
Please let me know if I have missed anything.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
Hmm. -I'm feeling better about him after his last post. The reasoning in the case looks genuine, even if I do still disagree with it.
Unvote zindabad
Shadow needs to respond more before I can figure out if he's noob-town or noob-scum.
Is this gut or do you have a reason for saying this?
Ugh, really?
Good to hear
I'm getting slightly lost in this Syrenz-meta argument (don't really see a huge difference between the different games) but I liked Syrenz's point that you accepted my initial meta read but then went back and reread it when the tide changed again. That doesn't read as genuinely trying to analyze his meta, that reads as fitting the meta to whatever read you want to have on him.
I thought he was a gimmick as well. That's kind of a key point here imo. If he's an experienced player then his post was extremely opportunistic. If he's a newb then it's not a big deal. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't know of anyone who's lied about being a gimmick (except for players that would be banned by outing themselves, i.e. jordman, naka).
Why is Shadowfury most likely town?
Cyan, i did ask you a question i didn't see an answer for. Why call out Syrenz for the second time he placed a 2nd random vote, and not the first?
Atlseal is likely town from his Cyan exchange. Cyan's memory slip is null, simply because having a confirmed townie Day 1 is not the common.
Syrenz's responses to Zinda haven't really done much to change my opinion of him. His defense seems to be more "caught off guard" than a solid defense. There are lots of words, but very few actually are being used to defend himself well.
I'll have more time on monday to fully dive into Syrenz.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Really though, mostly I just don't think his vote was random at all. Placing a second vote on someone that A)claimed miller and B)was just voted by a confirmed town(just because I forgot this, doesn't mean that Descoures did) really doesn't look like a random vote. I think that is just what Syrenz wanted it to appear as. Because he is scum.
I'll be back with you guys as soon as I can.
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@ DYH I voted for atlseal here, but I'm going to Unvote now.
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Is not.
Why is kpain town, sir? I have something else for you below.
You can certainly be clearer and more specific than this, and in fact you have a responsibility to be if in fact you are town and suspect me. Have a frown.
*sigh*
Why? If you folks don't start dropping reasons for votes and such, I'm really gonna sound like a broken record much of the game.
So, anyway, I know why I might drop a vote on Az, but why did you?
VEZOK I DON'T WANT YOU TO MISS THIS WHILE YOU SKIM MY POST
What if he's scum? Can't be that hard to start a wagon on scum. I didn't like the wording in your earlier post that got us here, and I don't like the wording here, either.
Oh, yeah? What was his response, what did it tell you, and REMEMBER WHAT YOU FORGOT AND GET BACK TO ME ON THAT.
Okay, I can see this. I would like to know why desCoures was probably town in your eyes since you weren't going off the confirmation.
So, Az can't be scum, then? Az isn't goofy when he's scum?
Where does this get us, though? I'm not seeing the possible upside for us. Other than wasted time (and not a lot of it) I see no downside, but without a possibility of benefit I'm not in.
I am so lazy, I can't possibly be bothered to look up the multiple people who have expressed suspicion of Arcadic. In lieu of me doing work, I would like for you to point out these posts to me.
I had another question for you, but I've forgotten it, or forgotten why I shelved it, so I'm typing this to remind myself I need to track that down.
Okay, why is this scummy as opposed to null?
I don't mind this part.
Why is this scummy?
That's the sort of thing that's a given. The fact that it's in your post is a black mark, especially since it's the second sign minor thing I've gotten from you.
Gotta simple question for you later.
Hey, why aren't you dead yet? MY CASE STANDS!
OOG: What kind of show was it?
What makes you say that?
Other crap on my list: I need to double-check a couple of things in the Syrenz-Zindabad catfight (Syrenz interperatation of the flow of events from his vote post, Zindabad's second presentation of the Syrenz scum meta). The first one I already looked at and felt the circumstances were different enough the tone and language differences wouldn't be reliable indicators (more specifically, Syrenz was being attacked deep into a frustrating game, and this attack was what was bringing us out of RVS, still a pretty relaxed environment).
I didn't say that. I said that's why he does silly things early game. It's why he started doing them as town, and the fact that it's a good cover for acting strangely as scum is merely a side effect.