Is this gut or do you have a reason for saying this?
I get the impression that his posts have a quality of genuine effort to them. I don't think I could give you a concrete reason for this impression that's more in-depth than quoting the posts in question and saying, "See? Townie effort!" so I suppose you may as well call it "gut."
I think he's faking his PR to make it harder for people to read him.
He hasn't done this as town in any games I've seen but everyone knows about the time he did it as scum.
I have since changed my mind after being reminded of Azrael's town shenanigans in Doha. Also, Azrael was scum in both Symbiote and Ogre and I don't recall him doing anything similar to this in those games. So maybe this is a town tell for Azrael?
Where does this get us, though? I'm not seeing the possible upside for us. Other than wasted time (and not a lot of it) I see no downside, but without a possibility of benefit I'm not in.
Worst case scenario there is no benefit except for locking scum into names that may or may not be flavorfully relevant (this game seems to mesh flavor and mechanics quite well). Best case scenario there is a namecop or similar role who can catch someone in a lie, but if there's no flavor significance to names then this might not accomplish anything. If nothing else the simple discussion of this soft-claim is generating conversation and it's interesting to see what people's reactions are to the idea.
He was scum in Symbiote and he wasn't lynched. I don't think he ever had a wagon.
In Doha we only lynched him because a cop faked a guilty. And even there we weren't sure if it''s the right thing to do. So in my experience Az wagons don't happen that fast.
The question told me nothing.
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I get the impression that his posts have a quality of genuine effort to them. I don't think I could give you a concrete reason for this impression that's more in-depth than quoting the posts in question and saying, "See? Townie effort!" so I suppose you may as well call it "gut."
If that's not a sincere answer, I'll eat my hat.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I really don't like this vote, and the hypocrisy behind it is humorous. But you literally straight barn someone else, and then vote. And while what Jobie posted are somewhat legit points against shadowfury, they aren't nearly strong enough for people to straight barn them without adding anything else to the wagon.
Hypocrisy? AFAIK Shadowfury didn't /barn anyone.
Anyways, what's more to be said? Shadowfury was opputunistic: weakcase->vote.
Quote from Pale Mage »
Hey, why aren't you dead yet? MY CASE STANDS!
OOG: What kind of show was it?
This sounds vaguely familiar but I can't remember from what. Also what is OOG and is this directed at me?
In the meantime, multiple people have expressed suspicion of Arcadic, who seems to be disengaged from the conversation while supporting major wagons, but no one has voted him. Let's rectify that.
Unvote Vote Arcadic
This is the worst vote in this game. You are rocketing up the scum list.
On a side note: unvote: Vote Azrael
Az what reactions did you hope to obtain via your faked pr, rampant posting in said fake pr throughout the forums, and specifically your recent post stating we should vote for you (need I remind you guys Az usually is telling the truth when he says things like "vote for me! It will help you guys!"
Frankly Az may be town, but we cannot allow him to just "be Az being Az". It's too easy to get lulled into a feeling that we should allow him to be aloof because he is probably helping us. However, I say the benefits of Az being aloof and town are far outweighed by the potential detriments of Az acting aloof and actually being scum.
Az needs to be drawn into the game in language that isn't that of insanity, or he needs to be voted for.
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AI didn't just claim miller, he also claimed to hate Vincent, which is who dC is.
Now, I can see where Cyan and such are coming from, but when you look at it all in context, I think it's pretty obvious that dC was reacting more to being hated than AI claiming miller.
Proving that he obviously recognizes that the game is still in random. In past games, when dC makes a serious vote during the random phase, he makes it known that it is serious, as he did against me in Ogre. Remember, Cyan?
The same question I just asked Cyan can be answered by you as well. I merely followed our glorious leader (with an obviously joke vote), in his vote that I interpreted as not likely to be serious (considering the reasons that would be behind it are not reasons I would see him pursuing a lynch over). I do not get what this is all about.
This reads as entirely sincere, as if he truly did not (and likely still doesn't) understand what the big deal is.
I love this awful allegation. I lovee it so much, it might be one of the worst I've seen in a long time; multiple random votes aren't allowed, seriously?
I love that you then use meta as your major support for going after him? I love that it's apparently so uncharacteristically odd for any person to random vote twice, that it's a scum tell? I love saying PFFT!
I love wondering if you're even serious?
I love serious vote Cyan. I love that you are transparently making awkward, ridiculous accusations so we can send you to the headsman nice and quick.
Now, where exactly did Az defend Syrenz? Because I just see him calling Cyan out for faulty logic.
Here are the relevant responses to Cyan's vote. I wasn't bothered at all by Syrenz's vote, but his responses to Cyan were what interested me.
These posts I've quoted above - especially the bolded sections - remind me of scum who are voted early in the game for obviously innocuous "offenses." They know their attackers have got nothing, but (because of their guilty consciences) attempt to protest their innocence and to make it clear that what they did is either typical or something that "everyone does", which is usually completely true.
A townie in this situation ignores or dismisses Cyan. A scum takes him seriously because he's worried about what might develop from this non-existent scumtell.
zindabad comes in later with reasons for his vote. Why weren't these provided when you first voted?
I always respond to accusations against me. Always. (I've had people bring up similar things to what you just said before - that I should have ignored it - but I never do ignore things people say against me.)
Again, this is absolutely the norm for Syrenz. I've never seen him ignore comments made against him.
If the wagon takes off he can pursue the mislynch while claiming the vote was random. If the wagon doesn't take off he can jump ship...while claiming the same.
This is intense WIFOM.
But, as has been stated, Syrenz is far too experienced to ever believe that he could get away with that. This point is ridiculous.
It depends on if people question you on it. If another player asks why you're voting me (or were voting me if I'm already dead), then you can say that it was initially random but I later became scummy in your eyes so the vote was serious after all.
That's how I would play off a "non-random random vote" as scum; you might do things differently.
Again, I do not believe that Syrenz would do this. Period.
Why random vote as scum when you can pretend to random vote but secretly support a wagon that's spearheaded by a confirmed townie? That's my interpretation of the events.
I don't recall you ever being so paranoid. It's noted for future review.
I see a lot of self-meta coming from you and very little else. ''I always respond to accusations against me"; "I'm a very cautious player as scum" etc etc. Can you provide some examples? It worries me that the majority of your defense is being undertaken by other players - Skander brought up Doha, again without actually giving concrete evidence, and Azrael has also been in your corner - and very little of it is being provided by you.
You ask Cyan if he's read anything besides the two posts that I actually did the legwork for and found. What kind of response is that? You should be finding other posts that illustrate your point and presenting them to your interlocutors.
Cyan's latest point is a good one. Now that I look at them more closely, there is a difference in the nature of the two posts from Doha that I linked (which I will now quote in their entirety below) and the responses that you have provided so far in this game.
Doha:
This game:
Note the differences in language and demeanor. Doha was indignant town expressing disbelief at ostensibly bogus accusations from AI. This game's responses have been more along the lines of a guilty kid with his hand in the cookie jar: "I don't get it, Mom, what have I done? It's 2 o'clock, cookies now won't even ruin my appetite."
I'm not 100% certain that Syrenz is scum, but I am now 100% certain that this is a line of inquiry worth pursuing. Vote: Syrenz.
And then zindabad goes back to the Syrenz wagon using evidence that he previously used to clear Syrenz as a suspect. Dislike.
@Zindabad: I asked Cyan that because if you actually read more, there's a difference in the circumstances behind it. In Doha mafia I came under attack for plainsight lurking. At first I defended myself and attempted to explain why I wasn't (although tbh I actually kinda was). AI insisted I was. I insisted I wasn't. AI insisted I was scum. I insisted I wasn't. That's kind of how it went. I provided points explaining why I wasn't and I asked him to do a comparison between my town and scum games. AI didn't and discounted my responses. So I have AI shouting I'm scum and there's nothing else I can do except dismiss his case. Here, however, I can logically explain why the allegations against me don't make sense, while I'm not yet being totally ignored. In Doha, I couldn't do anything except protest, while here I can still go through the points against me. And in Doha, the accusations of plainsight lurking were understadable, while the accusations being presented against me here, are not. I acknowledged the fact that I was asking mostly small questions, but I insisted that there was relevance behind them. I was indignant at unreasonable expectations and being ignored there, whereas here I do not see the case.
And saying that most of my defense has been taken up by other players instead of myself is a complete fabrication.
Also, I already provided an example of me responding to accusations against me. Why are you asking me for it again? In terms of being a cautious player, it's not something I can show by providing specific posts it's more about things I didn't do in those games and my behaviors in them as a whole. And anyways, how exactly do you plan to determine I'm telling the truth unless you check my games for yourself (which are Heroes, Goo and Anita Blake)? If I provide you with some examples of me being cautious as scum, what exactly does that do for you if I provide it, considering there could be a lot I'm leaving out?
Why do you say this:
And then ask me for some self-meta?
I'm not liking how Zindabad barns Skander after it looks like people are vouching for me being town and agrees my posts are similar. And then after kpaca (and Arcadic) posts his support of the wagon, goes and agrees with Cyan that my posts are different (using the very same posts as before at that).
Vote Zindabad.
This post is good.
@MMOD: This is what PMs asking about. OOG = Out of game.
I'm getting slightly lost in this Syrenz-meta argument (don't really see a huge difference between the different games) but I liked Syrenz's point that you accepted my initial meta read but then went back and reread it when the tide changed again. That doesn't read as genuinely trying to analyze his meta, that reads as fitting the meta to whatever read you want to have on him.
This is the worst vote in this game. You are rocketing up the scum list.
On a side note: unvote: Vote Azrael
Az what reactions did you hope to obtain via your faked pr, rampant posting in said fake pr throughout the forums, and specifically your recent post stating we should vote for you (need I remind you guys Az usually is telling the truth when he says things like "vote for me! It will help you guys!"
Frankly Az may be town, but we cannot allow him to just "be Az being Az". It's too easy to get lulled into a feeling that we should allow him to be aloof because he is probably helping us. However, I say the benefits of Az being aloof and town are far outweighed by the potential detriments of Az acting aloof and actually being scum.
Az needs to be drawn into the game in language that isn't that of insanity, or he needs to be voted for.
Can you read Az if he's under pressure? If so, I go along with you.
I'm still not liking zinda or Cyan for the actions against Syrenz. AI now seems to be a misguided townie likely. No real read on anyone else atm, although I would like more content from Arcadic and dC & mmod (obv)
What would be really awesome would be for DC to clarify whether or not his vote was random.
But logically, assuming that he randomly voted someone immediately after they claimed miller is inconsistent. Especially considering that his other random vote made it abundantly obvious that it was random, but his vote on AI gives no such indication(asking someone who claimed miller if they claimed scum and referring to them as a traitor is not indicative of a random vote).
Also, I absolutely see no way that anyone sides w/ Syrenz here. Zindabad provided multiple examples of Syrenz acting one way as scum, and remarkably different as town. He illustrated what the differences were. Syrenz response was to provide one game where he felt that he acted similarly as town being mislynched as did as scum(though it's my opinion that he was not nearly as belligerent in that game).
It is extremely disconcerting that this issue has not evoked significantly more conversation than it has. Even if people said 'I'm with Syrenz' that would be one thing(and to be fair, a couple have). But instead, no one is even commenting. That is a bad sign.
And how anyone can take Zindabad to be scum in all of this seems ridiculous to me. When he is scum, it is generally very apparent(please see Goo Mafia, or even Ogre Mafia). Zindabad is very likely to be town this game.
And lastly, Syrenz' vote on Zindabad is completely scummy. It shows Syrenz misunderstanding how other people read him(Syrenz) as town, and trying to play up to that, but failing miserably. You guys could just go read Syrenz in Anita Blake. Then read him in a town game(even LOTR2 is fine). Then read this one. Not only are his actions here inherently scummy on their own merits, but they are remarkably similar to his scum games, where he tries to feel out why people are attacking him, than to his town games, where he treats people attacking him with disdain.
I agree it sounds completely sincere, but it is a null tell for you.
I thought it was kind of weird for him to say that considering I was defending him. You, too?
EWP: Cyan's post is convincing. I would like to see a response from Syrenz. I would also like a clarification from desCoures so we can finally stop talking about the (non-)random vote.
And lastly, Syrenz' vote on Zindabad is completely scummy. It shows Syrenz misunderstanding how other people read him(Syrenz) as town, and trying to play up to that, but failing miserably. You guys could just go read Syrenz in Anita Blake. Then read him in a town game(even LOTR2 is fine). Then read this one. Not only are his actions here inherently scummy on their own merits, but they are remarkably similar to his scum games, where he tries to feel out why people are attacking him, than to his town games, where he treats people attacking him with disdain.
To be completely honest, my eyes gloss over and I tend to lose concentration while reading the back and forth between zindabad and Syrenz. It's one of the main reasons I don't do meta analysis.
If it will make you feel better, though, I'll try to work through them tomorrow.
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If you're town and I'm mafia, you've already lost. You just don't know it yet.
I would bet quite a bit of money that shadowfury is a gimmick, and had already been treating him as such; not a noob, and actually an experienced and likely good player.
Off-topic, but gimmicks doesn't mean experienced or good player (common misconception - I used to have it).
---
So, the opportunity to get on the early wagon against someone who is most likely to be town (I really don't see a bus possible here), with little potential to gain attention when he flipped town, in addition to not giving anything else to justify his vote, makes him look very scummy in my eyes.
But logically, assuming that he randomly voted someone immediately after they claimed miller is inconsistent. Especially considering that his other random vote made it abundantly obvious that it was random, but his vote on AI gives no such indication(asking someone who claimed miller if they claimed scum and referring to them as a traitor is not indicative of a random vote).
Yup. It's so inconsistent that I'm the only one that thought that
Also, I absolutely see no way that anyone sides w/ Syrenz here. Zindabad provided multiple examples of Syrenz acting one way as scum, and remarkably different as town. He illustrated what the differences were. Syrenz response was to provide one game where he felt that he acted similarly as town being mislynched as did as scum(though it's my opinion that he was not nearly as belligerent in that game).
What Zindabad provided was multiple instances of me responding to direct questions. As I said, how does it make sense for me to react angrily/ dismiss simple questions to me there?
And how anyone can take Zindabad to be scum in all of this seems ridiculous to me. When he is scum, it is generally very apparent(please see Goo Mafia, or even Ogre Mafia).
As is the case here.
And lastly, Syrenz' vote on Zindabad is completely scummy. It shows Syrenz misunderstanding how other people read him(Syrenz) as town, and trying to play up to that, but failing miserably.
I don't know what you're talking about.
You guys could just go read Syrenz in Anita Blake. Then read him in a town game(even LOTR2 is fine). Then read this one. Not only are his actions here inherently scummy on their own merits, but they are remarkably similar to his scum games, where he tries to feel out why people are attacking him, than to his town games, where he treats people attacking him with disdain.
I don't think I've ever been truly attacked as scum.
To be completely honest, my eyes gloss over and I tend to lose concentration while reading the back and forth between zindabad and Syrenz. It's one of the main reasons I don't do meta analysis.
If it will make you feel better, though, I'll try to work through them tomorrow.
I understand quite well; I used to spend hours upon hours reading and posting in games but now I realize that not only am I not a good enough analyst to consistently make good PBPAs even with that kind of time commitment, there are things I should be doing instead (like schoolwork, though "should" is the operative word there).
Exactly what I said? I mean that I can't see you and AI both being scum in this situation. If one of you is, the other most likely isn't. And yes, AI could be gambiting. But it seems like an awful gambit for him, because A)he is not a likely investigation target in general, but particularly in this game and B)he is pretty much resigning himself to getting Vigged at some point in the game. Running out a miller claim as scum, in hopes of the town not having any vigging capabilities(and not just mislynching you to be safe if they figure out that they don't have any vigging capabilities) is fantastically bad.
Yup. It's so inconsistent that I'm the only one that thought that
It is logically inconsistent, regardless of whom thought it.
What Zindabad provided was multiple instances of me responding to direct questions. As I said, how does it make sense for me to react angrily/ dismiss simple questions to me there?
What he provided, and what I have explained more plainly, is the difference in your tone in addressing questions posed to you when A)you were scum vs. B)you were town.
As is the case here.
Based upon...?
Your attack on Zindabad was awful. Of the two people attacking you at the time, his points were much more salient than, say, mine. Yet you chose to attack him over me. In fact, you have said almost nothing regarding my involvement here. This cannot really be viewed as a coincidence. You are attacking the easier of the 2 people opposed to you.
I don't know what you're talking about.
The major point against you, which you must be aware of, was that you are much more confrontational when you are attacked as town. Your response to this was 'Vote one of my attackers'. Even though there is no logical basis behind said vote. You are just trying to appeal to the crowd here.
I don't think I've ever been truly attacked as scum.
Until now? The present-tense mindset of this statement is a tell against you. And people have obviously expressed suspicion of you when you were scum. Those examples have already been provided.
Exactly what I said? I mean that I can't see you and AI both being scum in this situation. If one of you is, the other most likely isn't. And yes, AI could be gambiting. But it seems like an awful gambit for him, because A)he is not a likely investigation target in general, but particularly in this game and B)he is pretty much resigning himself to getting Vigged at some point in the game. Running out a miller claim as scum, in hopes of the town not having any vigging capabilities(and not just mislynching you to be safe if they figure out that they don't have any vigging capabilities) is fantastically bad.
I quoted Anaklusmos, not you.
It is logically inconsistent, regardless of whom thought it.
You can say that all you want. I already explained why I thought that. The point is other people apparently thought the same, so you trying to use that as a point against me makes no sense.
What he provided, and what I have explained more plainly, is the difference in your tone in addressing questions posed to you when A)you were scum vs. B)you were town.
Angry Syrenz
Doha: Faced with unreasonable expectations and being ignored, not being asked questions.
Asphodel Meadows: Being PoE'd which made no sense, not being asked questions.
Try again?
Based upon...?
Your attack on Zindabad was awful. Of the two people attacking you at the time, his points were much more salient than, say, mine. Yet you chose to attack him over me. In fact, you have said almost nothing regarding my involvement here. This cannot really be viewed as a coincidence. You are attacking the easier of the 2 people opposed to you.
Zindabad analyzed two of my posts and agreed that it was similar and I was town. He did this after people were saying I was town. Then Zindabad analyzed the very same two posts and said I was scum. He did this after people were saying I was scum.
You didn't.
The major point against you, which you must be aware of, was that you are much more confrontational when you are attacked as town. Your response to this was 'Vote one of my attackers'. Even though there is no logical basis behind said vote. You are just trying to appeal to the crowd here.
You can say that all you want. I already explained why I thought that. The point is other people apparently thought the same, so you trying to use that as a point against me makes no sense.
I just wanted you to make this more clear. Because frankly, it doesn't matter at all whether or not you thought DC's vote was random. As I said before, I don't see you placing the second vote there as town, based on your previous play as town. Whether the vote was random or not is largely meaningless. Calling it random just gives you a convenient excuse, but it's not something I see you doing as town. I asked you for evidence of you placing a second vote on a random wagon as town before, and you said you would get back to me. This doesn't appear to have happened yet.
Angry Syrenz
Doha: Faced with unreasonable expectations and being ignored, not being asked questions.
Asphodel Meadows: Being PoE'd which made no sense, not being asked questions.
Try again?
Just look at the difference in your attitude initially in this game vs. Doha. In a game where you were attacked as town, you were exceedingly arrogant about it. That is plainly not the case in this game. You have been relatively meek(though you are clearly trying to make up for this with your last few posts).
Now, add Anita Blake into the equation. While being criticized in that game, where was all of the belligerence that you have shown in games where you were town?
The same goes for Heroes.
Of the two, your behavior in this game is remarkably more similar to your scum games than to your town games. The evidence is as plain as day.
It further counts against you that, as it became clear that this was one of the main points against you, you have suddenly started to exhibit more 'town behavior'. The problem is that it is lacking any real consistency/force behind it. You just know what people are looking at now, and are trying to make up for mistakes you've already made. I did the same thing in Indiana Jones.
Zindabad analyzed two of my posts and agreed that it was similar and I was town. He did this after people were saying I was town. Then Zindabad analyzed the very same two posts and said I was scum. He did this after people were saying I was scum.
You didn't.
He also explained the differences that he noticed, and specifically mentioned that he was changing his mind, and bolded the parts that were relevant.
And of course, he expounded upon this even further in his most recent post.
Well, to those who said I made a weak case/voted opportunistically/did an obvious noob-scum thing, I really don't have any Mafia experience at all, internet or otherwise.
I have read up a few theory discussions, etc. before partaking in this game, but of course that's no replacement for actually doing the games. I made the best case I could under the circumstances.
Well, to those who said I made a weak case/voted opportunistically/did an obvious noob-scum thing, I really don't have any Mafia experience at all, internet or otherwise.
I have read up a few theory discussions, etc. before partaking in this game, but of course that's no replacement for actually doing the games. I made the best case I could under the circumstances.
I kind of feel like this is one of those 'too scummy to actually be scum' posts.
I just wanted you to make this more clear. Because frankly, it doesn't matter at all whether or not you thought DC's vote was random. As I said before, I don't see you placing the second vote there as town, based on your previous play as town. Whether the vote was random or not is largely meaningless. Calling it random just gives you a convenient excuse, but it's not something I see you doing as town. I asked you for evidence of you placing a second vote on a random wagon as town before, and you said you would get back to me. This doesn't appear to have happened yet.
I got the impression that you were saying I was scummy in this case for putting down a second random vote after dC's vote which you say wasn't random. I didn't see how my previous random voting patterns were relevant to that. I don't have the time to check my games now, but I should do so in my next post.
Just look at the difference in your attitude initially in this game vs. Doha. In a game where you were attacked as town, you were exceedingly arrogant about it.
Now look at that post. I don't know how you can possibly say that is different from Anita Blake.
He also explained the differences that he noticed, and specifically mentioned that he was changing his mind, and bolded the parts that were relevant.
I have faith in Zindabad's skills as an analyst. I am not at all comfortable with him 'misanalyzing' me at first and then changing his opinon when the tides against me were changing.
There's no way I'm going to attempt to lynch you without a reason to back it up (you're welcome to check my scum games - I'm a pretty careful player). The only way my vote would be on you (outside of the random stage) is if I could back up why my vote is on you. I'm not going to vote you and then hope you later become scummy and I can justify my vote being on you, I'll vote you when you're actually scummy. There's no reason for me to just place my vote on you now in the hopes that something develops later, when I can just as easily vote you later when you do something that I can actually justify a vote for. This makes no sense.
//snip//
Why are you so sure that Zindabad is scum, since with these lines you must be sure of his scummyness otherwise you'd not make a case, much like your doing with the rest of your attackers.
Pretty sure you're aware enough as town to not try and place a second 'random vote' on someone, and savvy enough as scum to try and pass this move off as town.
Considering that you quote me in that post without explaining why, are you referring to me when you're talking to MH?
Because it should be fairly obvious that I never thought his vote was actually random. I put the phrase in quotation marks, and the overall tone of the statement makes it completely obvious that I don't think it was actually a random vote.
Does nobody else see how bad MMoD's vote was on Shadowfury? Really?
@Syrenz I meant that I don't see bussing here, as it usually happens with votes that don't really have anything to back it up. But, it just doesn't feel that way. It just feels like a ridiculously opportunistic vote, which is why I suspect Shadowfury to be town and MMoD scum.
What would be really awesome would be for DC to clarify whether or not his vote was random.
Agreed. Hopefully he gets well soon.
Also, I absolutely see no way that anyone sides w/ Syrenz here. Zindabad provided multiple examples of Syrenz acting one way as scum, and remarkably different as town. He illustrated what the differences were. Syrenz response was to provide one game where he felt that he acted similarly as town being mislynched as did as scum(though it's my opinion that he was not nearly as belligerent in that game).
Syrenz' defense is that circumstances were different. That's a valid defense, imo, as the circumstances here are different than in those games.
It is extremely disconcerting that this issue has not evoked significantly more conversation than it has. Even if people said 'I'm with Syrenz' that would be one thing(and to be fair, a couple have). But instead, no one is even commenting. That is a bad sign.
Why?
And how anyone can take Zindabad to be scum in all of this seems ridiculous to me. When he is scum, it is generally very apparent(please see Goo Mafia, or even Ogre Mafia). Zindabad is very likely to be town this game.
I think it is too early to tell for sure, but I definitely do not like how he changed his mind after re-evaluating the same evidence.
Is there a reason you felt the need to throw in the slight jab at me? I never said anything about what AI said confirming me in any way.
No, you didn't, but I didn't want any misguided players to see that and think it was a town tell, as they could. Besides, how is saying something is a null tell a jab at you? It's, by definition, neutral.
It is logically inconsistent, regardless of whom thought it.
It really isn't. It's a difference of opinion.
Just because you think something is the logical explanation doesn't mean it is/is the only one.
What he provided, and what I have explained more plainly, is the difference in your tone in addressing questions posed to you when A)you were scum vs. B)you were town.
But this is the problem with meta arguments. There are many, many more factors that go into a person's playstyle than just whether they're town or scum. I mean, look how many people say they can only read someone else when they're under pressure?
The major point against you, which you must be aware of, was that you are much more confrontational when you are attacked as town. Your response to this was 'Vote one of my attackers'. Even though there is no logical basis behind said vote. You are just trying to appeal to the crowd here.
You act like the first thing he did was vote zindabad, which is not the case at all.
I just wanted you to make this more clear. Because frankly, it doesn't matter at all whether or not you thought DC's vote was random. As I said before, I don't see you placing the second vote there as town, based on your previous play as town. Whether the vote was random or not is largely meaningless. Calling it random just gives you a convenient excuse, but it's not something I see you doing as town.
What? You've been arguing that he's lying about it being random, therefore it's worse than it was. Now it's meaningless if it's random?
Considering that you quote me in that post without explaining why, are you referring to me when you're talking to MH?
Because it should be fairly obvious that I never thought his vote was actually random. I put the phrase in quotation marks, and the overall tone of the statement makes it completely obvious that I don't think it was actually a random vote.
Your quoted strictly for reference. Should have mentioned that somewhere i suppose. I've since realized your intentions after mentioning and questioning it before, but i felt it nessisarry to respond to Manders' question anyway.
Alright, first I would like to whole-heartedly apologize to all of you. I had originally intended to only skip through the random phase, but after that, whenever I went back to catch up I'd read a while, then get distracted and not end up back here until way too late get caught up. So, again, sorry for this. Unfortunately, now it is once again too late for a large post, but I will say that I am considering Syrenz as mostly town, and like Azrael as scum the best. Vote: Azrael.
Syrenz' defense is that circumstances were different. That's a valid defense, imo, as the circumstances here are different than in those games.
A)Every scum always says that 'those circumstances were different'. Remember in Superhero Mafia, when I was correctly pegged as scum? It was based on similar behavior, on my part, to Prehistoric Mafia(where I was also scum). What was my response? "The circumstances are different"
Why?
Because, it's been a major conversation point between 3 people. That should evoke large amounts of conversation from others.
I think it is too early to tell for sure, but I definitely do not like how he changed his mind after re-evaluating the same evidence.
You mean after I made my observations? So what, people should just never change their mind? It happens.
He was pretty aggressive in Ogre for the time he was there.
He replaced into a situation where he was literally dead scum walking(because of the headdress). He had no choice but to be really aggressive against other scum.
But this is the problem with meta arguments. There are many, many more factors that go into a person's playstyle than just whether they're town or scum. I mean, look how many people say they can only read someone else when they're under pressure?
Meta arguments are relevant arguments. Also, the entire argument is not based on meta, that is merely an aspect to it.
You act like the first thing he did was vote zindabad, which is not the case at all.
His vote was awful in and of itself, but particularly so when he was being called out for not behaving the way he does as town, so his reaction was to try and behave exactly that way.
What? You've been arguing that he's lying about it being random, therefore it's worse than it was. Now it's meaningless if it's random?
Yes? Whether or not it is random is meaningless, but Syrenz feeling the need to lie about it is not meaningless. Lying is bad? Etc.
@Gigas: Really, that's all you can contribute at this point? Why exactly are you voting Azrael?
But it's irrelevant anyway because I can see town saying it, too, so it's a null tell.
Because, it's been a major conversation point between 3 people. That should evoke large amounts of conversation from others.
People like to sit back and watch stuff happen before they post their thoughts on it.
That said, you're right. Enough time has passed and it is time for people to be posting their thoughts on this situation.
You mean after I made my observations?
It is too much coincidence that he looked at it, and saw townish responses enough to unvote, then see others getting on him, read the posts again, and suddenly see the scum points. That is what I am saying.
...He had no choice but to be really aggressive against other scum.
Fair enough.
He was aggressive, as mafia, in South Park mafia.
Meta arguments are relevant arguments. Also, the entire argument is not based on meta, that is merely an aspect to it.
I didn't say they weren't relevant.
Can you re-iterate the non-meta points that you have against him?
His vote was awful in and of itself, but particularly so when he was being called out for not behaving the way he does as town, so his reaction was to try and behave exactly that way.
Or to genuinely behave that way.
Whether or not it is random is meaningless, but Syrenz feeling the need to lie about it is not meaningless.
Wrong, Cyan. It is completely relevant, as if it was random, he is not lying. I believe it was random, even if dC does confirm his vote was serious.
@Gigas: Really, that's all you can contribute at this point? Why exactly are you voting Azrael?
Some one who played with Cyan before: Does he act like this as town or as scum? Or just in general.
I see people defending and chainsaw defending Syrenz and other people attacking Syrenz. I am in the defending camp for now. He doesn't look like scum this game. More of his townie self.
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I have since changed my mind after being reminded of Azrael's town shenanigans in Doha. Also, Azrael was scum in both Symbiote and Ogre and I don't recall him doing anything similar to this in those games. So maybe this is a town tell for Azrael?
Az what reactions did you hope to obtain via your faked pr, rampant posting in said fake pr throughout the forums, and specifically your recent post stating we should vote for you (need I remind you guys Az usually is telling the truth when he says things like "vote for me! It will help you guys!"
Frankly Az may be town, but we cannot allow him to just "be Az being Az". It's too easy to get lulled into a feeling that we should allow him to be aloof because he is probably helping us. However, I say the benefits of Az being aloof and town are far outweighed by the potential detriments of Az acting aloof and actually being scum.
Az needs to be drawn into the game in language that isn't that of insanity, or he needs to be voted for.
'Sup Kpaca. I might be more concerned by this if you didn't do this every game. As is, I think me and the scum-buddies are pretty confident we can ignore this.
Also, you should totally take me seriously when I say you should vote me. Deadly, deadly serious.
Alright, first I would like to whole-heartedly apologize to all of you. I had originally intended to only skip through the random phase, but after that, whenever I went back to catch up I'd read a while, then get distracted and not end up back here until way too late get caught up. So, again, sorry for this. Unfortunately, now it is once again too late for a large post, but I will say that I am considering Syrenz as mostly town, and like Azrael as scum the best. [B]Vote: Azrael[/B].
Here you go, Kpaca. [b]Fifth Hydra-vote, Gigas1].
Its a good thing I'm keeping score this game, because I'm losing track of my scum-list pretty rapidly.
'Sup Kpaca. I might be more concerned by this if you didn't do this every game. As is, I think me and the scum-buddies are pretty confident we can ignore this.
Also, you should totally take me seriously when I say you should vote me. Deadly, deadly serious.
Also, "faked PR" = acting aloof?
I do this in every game? I'm pretty sure the only other game I played with you recently I did do this, you were scum, and you poo-pooed it like you are doing here. Last time you said "it's obvious you are only motivated by a gigantic chip on your shoulder" or something to that effect.
Anyways, since you are obviously not going to cooperate, I would again like to ask for people to vote Az. I mean at the least we should take him deadly serious when he says we should vote for him :rolleyes:. Or we could just let him do whatever he wants based on reputation and hope he isn't scum.
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So you're the vig then? And if you are good at reading him as scum what is the purpose of not pressuring him now, since you said you were close to being with me? Was your plan to vote and then let me do heavy lifting, so you could stay on the wagon? I really don't like the way you just sorta placed support, but gave yourself a big out based on my confidence in reading Az. This conflicts with your assertion that you can read Az.
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So you're the vig then? And if you are good at reading him as scum what is the purpose of not pressuring him now, since you said you were close to being with me? Was your plan to vote and then let me do heavy lifting, so you could stay on the wagon? I really don't like the way you just sorta placed support, but gave yourself a big out based on my confidence in reading Az. This conflicts with your assertion that you can read Az.
No, I'm not the vig. And I said I read Az pretty well in one game. You're jumping to conclusions.
I'm not sure where I want my vote right now, which is why I haven't placed a vote. I'll probably end up putting it on someone involved in the Syrenz situation, but I'm waiting for all information to be presented, i.e. whether dC's vote was random and what he wants to do now.
I'm really tempted to just /barn everything he does since I know he's town, but that's taking the easy way out, and I'm trying to get better at this game.
Again, kpaca, PRETTY well. I'm not claiming to be Seppel, here.
Also in light of you not being the vig, that comment is even more odd.
How so? It is safe to assume that we do have a vig and said person can agree that Az is scum and take care of him for us if the town cannot agree to lynch him.
Again, kpaca, PRETTY well. I'm not claiming to be Seppel, here.
Right, but between your responding with "I read him well in blank", along with the reaffirmation phrase of "He won't get to far away", which reaffirms your ability to find Az out, leads to the personafication of you as someone who can read Az.
How so? It is safe to assume that we do have a vig and said person can agree that Az is scum and take care of him for us if the town cannot agree to lynch him.
It is not safe to assume we have a vig, nor do I understand the logic of not voting for him because he can be vigged.
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Right, but between your responding with "I read him well in blank", along with the reaffirmation phrase of "He won't get to far away", which reaffirms your ability to find Az out, leads to the personafication of you as someone who can read Az.
Sorry if I confused you. Yeah, I feel I can read Az pretty well, but I can always be wrong.
I mean, I was absolutely positive Cyan was scum in Ogre, too. More sure than I was about Az. He wasn't.
It is not safe to assume we have a vig, nor do I understand the logic of not voting for him because he can be vigged.
That's not why I'm not voting him. I'm not voting him because I see scummier fish to fry, but I need discussions to come to a close regarding that so I can decide which person I'm leaning scum more on. Right now, it'll probably be zindabad, but I'm not ready to commit just yet.
Your quotes presented here showing me responding to simple questions about my claim. In what context does it make sense for me to be shouting "Garbage" or dismissing simple questions about my claim? I was asked straightforward questions, to which I responded. Your stretching here is really bad and is indicative of your alignment (i.e. mafia).
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Please state it more plainly.
Additionally, I like how you only read games that look like they can reinforce the points you are trying to make. I mean you look at Asphodel where you have to search around for posts in which I defend myself, instead of just reading a game in which my lynch should be prominent in your mind (considering it won you the game) and the relevant quotes easier to find?
The situations aren't the same. I don't think you legitimately thought you were under pressure in LOTR II - the lynch came courtesy of 3 votes at the very end of the day when you weren't even around. You didn't feel in danger. You did feel in danger during Meadows.
I used the word garbage there. Correct. Not using the word garbage is not something that is a proven scumtell for me. (Sure I've never really been attacked as scum, so you can't say that it isn't indicative of me being scum, but I've just provided proof of me being attacked and not using strong language as town and your 'similarities' to my scum games are complete crap, as I explained.)
You're telling me I'm the one selectively reading? There was a lot of bolded language there to choose from, not just the one word that you attempted to focus on. You have not explained the discrepancies that I outlined in my previous case against you, most likely because you cannot, and you have offered no evidence against me other than that I'm attacking you. Your vote on me is the definition of OMGUS.
I'm getting slightly lost in this Syrenz-meta argument (don't really see a huge difference between the different games) but I liked Syrenz's point that you accepted my initial meta read but then went back and reread it when the tide changed again. That doesn't read as genuinely trying to analyze his meta, that reads as fitting the meta to whatever read you want to have on him.
Let's look a little more closely at the sequence of events (I'm big on timelines these days.)
79: I outline my suspicions of Syrenz. 80: Syrenz responds. 84: Az calls me scummy for my attack on Syrenz. 91: AI continues his attacks on Syrenz. 92: Skander backs Syrenz's response to Cyan's vote (implicitly showing he thinks Syrenz is town) citing an example of how he behaved similarly in Doha Mafia without providing links. 94: MH says Syrenz is town. 95: Cyan restates that he thinks Syrenz is scum. 98: Az states he suspects Cyan and I. 99: Having now gone back to reference the episode in Doha to which Skander referred, I present posts 1152 and 1153 from that game, then state that I'm sold by Skander's evidence. 104: Arcadic states he thinks Syrenz has "come out worse" from that exchange. 105: Cyan states he doesn't think that the posts Skander mentioned and that I displayed are actually relevant to this situation. 107: Syrenz responds to AI and Cyan. 108: kpaca states that Syrenz is scum and votes him in follow-up post 109. 110: Ged posts some wishy-washy stuff with no clear conclusion. 115: I attack Syrenz, quoting posts 1152 and 1153 from Doha in their entirety to illustrate the contrast between Syrenz's posts in this game.
Syrenz says that the difference in position between posts 99 and 115 makes me scum. You don't go that far, stating only that I'm not "genuinely analyzing the meta" and "fitting the meta to whatever read you want to have on him."
Firstly, the latter quote doesn't mean that I'm scum and it doesn't mean that what I posted isn't accurate. Townies fit metas, posts, cases, any sort of evidence into their current reads all the time.
Secondly, I dispute the claim that "the tide was turning" between posts 79 and 99, then again between 99 and 115. What actually happened was that two players who hadn't commented on the Syrenz situation before post 99 backed Syrenz as town (Skander and Azrael) and two players who hadn't commented on the Syrenz situation before post 115 attacked him as scum (kpaca and Arcadic.) Nobody changed his or her position except me. AI and Cyan maintained their attacks on Syrenz; MH, Az and Skander maintained that he was not scum. All that happened was that I changed my mind. Like I already said, I went back and closely reviewed the actual posts from this game and Doha again, then came to a new conclusion.
Other crap on my list: I need to double-check a couple of things in the Syrenz-Zindabad catfight (Syrenz interperatation of the flow of events from his vote post, Zindabad's second presentation of the Syrenz scum meta). The first one I already looked at and felt the circumstances were different enough the tone and language differences wouldn't be reliable indicators (more specifically, Syrenz was being attacked deep into a frustrating game, and this attack was what was bringing us out of RVS, still a pretty relaxed environment).
I feel like you've done a great job of avoiding taking a position on what, to me, is the most important dispute in the game so far, and I feel that reflects badly on you.
Note how zinda jumps on the wagon with no relevant reason.
zindabad comes in later with reasons for his vote. Why weren't these provided when you first voted?
Your posts are incredibly irritating to multi-quote.
I reserve the right to vote my mind at any point, with or without reasons. That said, I voted Syrenz because my gut was telling me that there was something up with him. I scrutinized his posts and isolated what was giving me that feeling, then presented it. Same way that all of my cases are built.
Your posts are incredibly irritating to multi-quote.
So I've heard before. You're welcome to just remove the tags. My quotes don't have to be all pretty.
I reserve the right to vote my mind at any point, with or without reasons. That said, I voted Syrenz because my gut was telling me that there was something up with him. I scrutinized his posts and isolated what was giving me that feeling, then presented it. Same way that all of my cases are built.
But you backed off at one point, then re-read the same evidence and decided it was scummy. This makes no sense to me.
I do this in every game? I'm pretty sure the only other game I played with you recently I did do this, you were scum, and you poo-pooed it like you are doing here. Last time you said "it's obvious you are only motivated by a gigantic chip on your shoulder" or something to that effect.
Anyways, since you are obviously not going to cooperate, I would again like to ask for people to vote Az. I mean at the least we should take him deadly serious when he says we should vote for him :rolleyes:. Or we could just let him do whatever he wants based on reputation and hope he isn't scum.
Seems like I've spent the last few games we've played together,
watching you spew bees out of your bonnet on account of my playstyle. I seem to recall remarking that you seemed to have a personal issue, and somebody made a comment about a chip being on someone's shoulder. *shrugs*
Regardless, I don't take your read seriously. You say I'm being aloof. I might be later on if my patience wears thin, but I'm certainly not right now.
I'm really tempted to just /barn everything he does since I know he's town, but that's taking the easy way out, and I'm trying to get better at this game.
Ten Az points if you can figure out why I'm giving you -10 townie points for this?
(This is so much more fun than trying to pick out who's the newb town. Very much more vintage Az, circa 2003-2005.)
Oh, and the Az's new posting restriction is going to be talking in the third person.
Let Az know if you want Az's official town/scum scorecard posted to the thread. So far, Asianinvasion is waaaaay out in front for the good team with fifty points, and Zindabad and Manders are tied at -10, with Cyan trailing at 7 1/2.
I get the impression that his posts have a quality of genuine effort to them. I don't think I could give you a concrete reason for this impression that's more in-depth than quoting the posts in question and saying, "See? Townie effort!" so I suppose you may as well call it "gut."
See below:
I have since changed my mind after being reminded of Azrael's town shenanigans in Doha. Also, Azrael was scum in both Symbiote and Ogre and I don't recall him doing anything similar to this in those games. So maybe this is a town tell for Azrael?
Worst case scenario there is no benefit except for locking scum into names that may or may not be flavorfully relevant (this game seems to mesh flavor and mechanics quite well). Best case scenario there is a namecop or similar role who can catch someone in a lie, but if there's no flavor significance to names then this might not accomplish anything. If nothing else the simple discussion of this soft-claim is generating conversation and it's interesting to see what people's reactions are to the idea.
He was scum in Symbiote and he wasn't lynched. I don't think he ever had a wagon.
In Doha we only lynched him because a cop faked a guilty. And even there we weren't sure if it''s the right thing to do. So in my experience Az wagons don't happen that fast.
The question told me nothing.
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If that's not a sincere answer, I'll eat my hat.
Anyways, what's more to be said? Shadowfury was opputunistic: weakcase->vote.
This sounds vaguely familiar but I can't remember from what. Also what is OOG and is this directed at me?
This is the worst vote in this game. You are rocketing up the scum list.
On a side note: unvote: Vote Azrael
Az what reactions did you hope to obtain via your faked pr, rampant posting in said fake pr throughout the forums, and specifically your recent post stating we should vote for you (need I remind you guys Az usually is telling the truth when he says things like "vote for me! It will help you guys!"
Frankly Az may be town, but we cannot allow him to just "be Az being Az". It's too easy to get lulled into a feeling that we should allow him to be aloof because he is probably helping us. However, I say the benefits of Az being aloof and town are far outweighed by the potential detriments of Az acting aloof and actually being scum.
Az needs to be drawn into the game in language that isn't that of insanity, or he needs to be voted for.
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Gigas1 (no posts yet - 24 hours to respond)
Wrath_of_Dog indicated he was moving flats this weekend, so I will wait until tomorrow to prod him if he has not posted.
Vote Count:
shadowfuryix (4) - Jobie, MMoD, Ged, atlseal
atlseal (2) - Skander, shadowfuryix
MMoD (2) - Pale Mage, Anaklusmos
syrenz (2) - Cyan, zindabad
Arcadic (1) - AsianInvasion
AsianInvasion (1) - desCoures
Azrael (1) - kpaca
Cyan (1) - Azrael
zindabad (1) - syrenz
With 22 alive, it is 12 to lynch.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
I'm going to start by showing exactly how dCs vote could be construed as random:
AI didn't just claim miller, he also claimed to hate Vincent, which is who dC is.
Now, I can see where Cyan and such are coming from, but when you look at it all in context, I think it's pretty obvious that dC was reacting more to being hated than AI claiming miller.
And, as stated by Anak, this is quite obviously a no-brained /barn of our Glorious Leader.
Proceeding forward, Az posts this:
and dC posts this:
Proving that he obviously recognizes that the game is still in random. In past games, when dC makes a serious vote during the random phase, he makes it known that it is serious, as he did against me in Ogre. Remember, Cyan?
I've noticed a pattern of this in other games, so I'm not convinced it's a tell.
This reads as entirely sincere, as if he truly did not (and likely still doesn't) understand what the big deal is.
Note how zinda jumps on the wagon with no relevant reason.
@Vez:
Here is what Az said:
Now, where exactly did Az defend Syrenz? Because I just see him calling Cyan out for faulty logic.
zindabad comes in later with reasons for his vote. Why weren't these provided when you first voted?
Again, this is absolutely the norm for Syrenz. I've never seen him ignore comments made against him.
This is intense WIFOM.
But, as has been stated, Syrenz is far too experienced to ever believe that he could get away with that. This point is ridiculous.
Why?
Again, I do not believe that Syrenz would do this. Period.
I don't recall you ever being so paranoid. It's noted for future review.
@Arcadic: I need an answer to this:
And then zindabad goes back to the Syrenz wagon using evidence that he previously used to clear Syrenz as a suspect. Dislike.
This post is good.
@MMOD: This is what PMs asking about. OOG = Out of game.
Why?
QFT
Why do you call him kpain? He's a dear.
I'm tempted to say the same about PM, but I'm still feeling burned by Ogre.
I agree it sounds completely sincere, but it is a null tell for you.
Can you read Az if he's under pressure? If so, I go along with you.
I'm still not liking zinda or Cyan for the actions against Syrenz. AI now seems to be a misguided townie likely. No real read on anyone else atm, although I would like more content from Arcadic and dC & mmod (obv)
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But logically, assuming that he randomly voted someone immediately after they claimed miller is inconsistent. Especially considering that his other random vote made it abundantly obvious that it was random, but his vote on AI gives no such indication(asking someone who claimed miller if they claimed scum and referring to them as a traitor is not indicative of a random vote).
Also, I absolutely see no way that anyone sides w/ Syrenz here. Zindabad provided multiple examples of Syrenz acting one way as scum, and remarkably different as town. He illustrated what the differences were. Syrenz response was to provide one game where he felt that he acted similarly as town being mislynched as did as scum(though it's my opinion that he was not nearly as belligerent in that game).
It is extremely disconcerting that this issue has not evoked significantly more conversation than it has. Even if people said 'I'm with Syrenz' that would be one thing(and to be fair, a couple have). But instead, no one is even commenting. That is a bad sign.
And how anyone can take Zindabad to be scum in all of this seems ridiculous to me. When he is scum, it is generally very apparent(please see Goo Mafia, or even Ogre Mafia). Zindabad is very likely to be town this game.
And lastly, Syrenz' vote on Zindabad is completely scummy. It shows Syrenz misunderstanding how other people read him(Syrenz) as town, and trying to play up to that, but failing miserably. You guys could just go read Syrenz in Anita Blake. Then read him in a town game(even LOTR2 is fine). Then read this one. Not only are his actions here inherently scummy on their own merits, but they are remarkably similar to his scum games, where he tries to feel out why people are attacking him, than to his town games, where he treats people attacking him with disdain.
As stated earlier, that's part of my flavor. I figured it would be important to mention because I think flavor and mechanics are meshed.
I think zindabad is a bit more aggressive as town. But I confess to being bad at reading him, especially when he's deliberately lurky.
I thought it was kind of weird for him to say that considering I was defending him. You, too?
EWP: Cyan's post is convincing. I would like to see a response from Syrenz. I would also like a clarification from desCoures so we can finally stop talking about the (non-)random vote.
To be completely honest, my eyes gloss over and I tend to lose concentration while reading the back and forth between zindabad and Syrenz. It's one of the main reasons I don't do meta analysis.
If it will make you feel better, though, I'll try to work through them tomorrow.
Off-topic, but gimmicks doesn't mean experienced or good player (common misconception - I used to have it).
---
What do you mean by "bus possible here"?
Yup. It's so inconsistent that I'm the only one that thought that
What Zindabad provided was multiple instances of me responding to direct questions. As I said, how does it make sense for me to react angrily/ dismiss simple questions to me there?
As is the case here.
I don't know what you're talking about.
I don't think I've ever been truly attacked as scum.
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Is there a reason you felt the need to throw in the slight jab at me? I never said anything about what AI said confirming me in any way.
I understand quite well; I used to spend hours upon hours reading and posting in games but now I realize that not only am I not a good enough analyst to consistently make good PBPAs even with that kind of time commitment, there are things I should be doing instead (like schoolwork, though "should" is the operative word there).
!!!
Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees this. I need another vote, one I can just keep on Syrenz while I'm voting other people.
It is logically inconsistent, regardless of whom thought it.
What he provided, and what I have explained more plainly, is the difference in your tone in addressing questions posed to you when A)you were scum vs. B)you were town.
Based upon...?
Your attack on Zindabad was awful. Of the two people attacking you at the time, his points were much more salient than, say, mine. Yet you chose to attack him over me. In fact, you have said almost nothing regarding my involvement here. This cannot really be viewed as a coincidence. You are attacking the easier of the 2 people opposed to you.
The major point against you, which you must be aware of, was that you are much more confrontational when you are attacked as town. Your response to this was 'Vote one of my attackers'. Even though there is no logical basis behind said vote. You are just trying to appeal to the crowd here.
Until now? The present-tense mindset of this statement is a tell against you. And people have obviously expressed suspicion of you when you were scum. Those examples have already been provided.
I quoted Anaklusmos, not you.
You can say that all you want. I already explained why I thought that. The point is other people apparently thought the same, so you trying to use that as a point against me makes no sense.
Angry Syrenz
Doha: Faced with unreasonable expectations and being ignored, not being asked questions.
Asphodel Meadows: Being PoE'd which made no sense, not being asked questions.
Try again?
Zindabad analyzed two of my posts and agreed that it was similar and I was town. He did this after people were saying I was town. Then Zindabad analyzed the very same two posts and said I was scum. He did this after people were saying I was scum.
You didn't.
Wrong.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Just look at the difference in your attitude initially in this game vs. Doha. In a game where you were attacked as town, you were exceedingly arrogant about it. That is plainly not the case in this game. You have been relatively meek(though you are clearly trying to make up for this with your last few posts).
Now, add Anita Blake into the equation. While being criticized in that game, where was all of the belligerence that you have shown in games where you were town?
The same goes for Heroes.
Of the two, your behavior in this game is remarkably more similar to your scum games than to your town games. The evidence is as plain as day.
It further counts against you that, as it became clear that this was one of the main points against you, you have suddenly started to exhibit more 'town behavior'. The problem is that it is lacking any real consistency/force behind it. You just know what people are looking at now, and are trying to make up for mistakes you've already made. I did the same thing in Indiana Jones.
He also explained the differences that he noticed, and specifically mentioned that he was changing his mind, and bolded the parts that were relevant.
And of course, he expounded upon this even further in his most recent post.
I have read up a few theory discussions, etc. before partaking in this game, but of course that's no replacement for actually doing the games. I made the best case I could under the circumstances.
@PM: It was a Chinese new years show, and we were the only rock band.
I kind of feel like this is one of those 'too scummy to actually be scum' posts.
I got the impression that you were saying I was scummy in this case for putting down a second random vote after dC's vote which you say wasn't random. I didn't see how my previous random voting patterns were relevant to that. I don't have the time to check my games now, but I should do so in my next post.
I didn't start off like that. It was only after trying to explain myself and being ignored, did that behavior start. I at first tried to explain myself.http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5756580&postcount=1009
Now look at that post. I don't know how you can possibly say that is different from Anita Blake.
I have faith in Zindabad's skills as an analyst. I am not at all comfortable with him 'misanalyzing' me at first and then changing his opinon when the tides against me were changing.
Lair of the Cat (Mafia Stats)
Why are you so sure that Zindabad is scum, since with these lines you must be sure of his scummyness otherwise you'd not make a case, much like your doing with the rest of your attackers.
Its interesting due to the fact he refers to the vote as Random initially, then expands upon why it wasn't random.
I believe your voting Az as of this post, why not simply revote? Why is your vote being on Az so important?
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Because it should be fairly obvious that I never thought his vote was actually random. I put the phrase in quotation marks, and the overall tone of the statement makes it completely obvious that I don't think it was actually a random vote.
@Syrenz I meant that I don't see bussing here, as it usually happens with votes that don't really have anything to back it up. But, it just doesn't feel that way. It just feels like a ridiculously opportunistic vote, which is why I suspect Shadowfury to be town and MMoD scum.
Agreed. Hopefully he gets well soon.
Syrenz' defense is that circumstances were different. That's a valid defense, imo, as the circumstances here are different than in those games.
Why?
I think it is too early to tell for sure, but I definitely do not like how he changed his mind after re-evaluating the same evidence.
Ok? I don't really find that all too relevant. I don't really care why you said it, but you did, and I think that's what dC was reacting to.
He was pretty aggressive in Ogre for the time he was there.
Yeah, a little.
No, you didn't, but I didn't want any misguided players to see that and think it was a town tell, as they could. Besides, how is saying something is a null tell a jab at you? It's, by definition, neutral.
I didn't get it, either.
It really isn't. It's a difference of opinion.
Just because you think something is the logical explanation doesn't mean it is/is the only one.
But this is the problem with meta arguments. There are many, many more factors that go into a person's playstyle than just whether they're town or scum. I mean, look how many people say they can only read someone else when they're under pressure?
You act like the first thing he did was vote zindabad, which is not the case at all.
What? You've been arguing that he's lying about it being random, therefore it's worse than it was. Now it's meaningless if it's random?
Yeah, probably.
I don't think it's as bad as you do, but I've definitely got my eye on him. mmod's difficult to read.
Although now I really, really want to hear his band.
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Your quoted strictly for reference. Should have mentioned that somewhere i suppose. I've since realized your intentions after mentioning and questioning it before, but i felt it nessisarry to respond to Manders' question anyway.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Eh, I did roughly the same thing. Although assuming shadow's not a gimmick and really is a noob, his post was a null tell.
I still don't see what Syrnez has done as scummy. On a related note, I hate meta.
Arcadic, AI on watch list.
Because, it's been a major conversation point between 3 people. That should evoke large amounts of conversation from others.
You mean after I made my observations? So what, people should just never change their mind? It happens.
He replaced into a situation where he was literally dead scum walking(because of the headdress). He had no choice but to be really aggressive against other scum.
Meta arguments are relevant arguments. Also, the entire argument is not based on meta, that is merely an aspect to it.
His vote was awful in and of itself, but particularly so when he was being called out for not behaving the way he does as town, so his reaction was to try and behave exactly that way.
Yes? Whether or not it is random is meaningless, but Syrenz feeling the need to lie about it is not meaningless. Lying is bad? Etc.
@Gigas: Really, that's all you can contribute at this point? Why exactly are you voting Azrael?
No, I don't remember that, sorry.
But it's irrelevant anyway because I can see town saying it, too, so it's a null tell.
People like to sit back and watch stuff happen before they post their thoughts on it.
That said, you're right. Enough time has passed and it is time for people to be posting their thoughts on this situation.
It is too much coincidence that he looked at it, and saw townish responses enough to unvote, then see others getting on him, read the posts again, and suddenly see the scum points. That is what I am saying.
Fair enough.
He was aggressive, as mafia, in South Park mafia.
I didn't say they weren't relevant.
Can you re-iterate the non-meta points that you have against him?
Or to genuinely behave that way.
Wrong, Cyan. It is completely relevant, as if it was random, he is not lying. I believe it was random, even if dC does confirm his vote was serious.
/second answering of this question.
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I see people defending and chainsaw defending Syrenz and other people attacking Syrenz. I am in the defending camp for now. He doesn't look like scum this game. More of his townie self.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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shadowfuryix (4) - Jobie, MMoD, Ged, atlseal
atlseal (2) - Skander, shadowfuryix
Azrael (2) - kpaca, Gigas1
MMoD (2) - Pale Mage, Anaklusmos
syrenz (2) - Cyan, zindabad
Arcadic (1) - AsianInvasion
AsianInvasion (1) - desCoures
Cyan (1) - Azrael
zindabad (1) - syrenz
With 22 alive, it is 12 to lynch.
Please let me know if you find any errors.
WoD will be prodded.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
*long sigh*
Null. Tell.
'Sup Kpaca. I might be more concerned by this if you didn't do this every game. As is, I think me and the scum-buddies are pretty confident we can ignore this.
Also, you should totally take me seriously when I say you should vote me. Deadly, deadly serious.
Also, "faked PR" = acting aloof?
Here you go, Kpaca. [b]Fifth Hydra-vote, Gigas1].
Its a good thing I'm keeping score this game, because I'm losing track of my scum-list pretty rapidly.
Maybe?
I do this in every game? I'm pretty sure the only other game I played with you recently I did do this, you were scum, and you poo-pooed it like you are doing here. Last time you said "it's obvious you are only motivated by a gigantic chip on your shoulder" or something to that effect.
Anyways, since you are obviously not going to cooperate, I would again like to ask for people to vote Az. I mean at the least we should take him deadly serious when he says we should vote for him :rolleyes:. Or we could just let him do whatever he wants based on reputation and hope he isn't scum.
That...doesn't sound very sure.
I'm content to wait on Az. He'll show his true colors eventually, as he did in Ogre.
Ima teach him to poison me!
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No, I'm not the vig. And I said I read Az pretty well in one game. You're jumping to conclusions.
I'm not sure where I want my vote right now, which is why I haven't placed a vote. I'll probably end up putting it on someone involved in the Syrenz situation, but I'm waiting for all information to be presented, i.e. whether dC's vote was random and what he wants to do now.
I'm really tempted to just /barn everything he does since I know he's town, but that's taking the easy way out, and I'm trying to get better at this game.
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I'm jumping to conclusions?
Also in light of you not being the vig, that comment is even more odd.
Again, kpaca, PRETTY well. I'm not claiming to be Seppel, here.
How so? It is safe to assume that we do have a vig and said person can agree that Az is scum and take care of him for us if the town cannot agree to lynch him.
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Right, but between your responding with "I read him well in blank", along with the reaffirmation phrase of "He won't get to far away", which reaffirms your ability to find Az out, leads to the personafication of you as someone who can read Az.
It is not safe to assume we have a vig, nor do I understand the logic of not voting for him because he can be vigged.
Sorry if I confused you. Yeah, I feel I can read Az pretty well, but I can always be wrong.
I mean, I was absolutely positive Cyan was scum in Ogre, too. More sure than I was about Az. He wasn't.
That's not why I'm not voting him. I'm not voting him because I see scummier fish to fry, but I need discussions to come to a close regarding that so I can decide which person I'm leaning scum more on. Right now, it'll probably be zindabad, but I'm not ready to commit just yet.
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I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Please state it more plainly.
The situations aren't the same. I don't think you legitimately thought you were under pressure in LOTR II - the lynch came courtesy of 3 votes at the very end of the day when you weren't even around. You didn't feel in danger. You did feel in danger during Meadows.
You're telling me I'm the one selectively reading? There was a lot of bolded language there to choose from, not just the one word that you attempted to focus on. You have not explained the discrepancies that I outlined in my previous case against you, most likely because you cannot, and you have offered no evidence against me other than that I'm attacking you. Your vote on me is the definition of OMGUS.
Let's look a little more closely at the sequence of events (I'm big on timelines these days.)
79: I outline my suspicions of Syrenz.
80: Syrenz responds.
84: Az calls me scummy for my attack on Syrenz.
91: AI continues his attacks on Syrenz.
92: Skander backs Syrenz's response to Cyan's vote (implicitly showing he thinks Syrenz is town) citing an example of how he behaved similarly in Doha Mafia without providing links.
94: MH says Syrenz is town.
95: Cyan restates that he thinks Syrenz is scum.
98: Az states he suspects Cyan and I.
99: Having now gone back to reference the episode in Doha to which Skander referred, I present posts 1152 and 1153 from that game, then state that I'm sold by Skander's evidence.
104: Arcadic states he thinks Syrenz has "come out worse" from that exchange.
105: Cyan states he doesn't think that the posts Skander mentioned and that I displayed are actually relevant to this situation.
107: Syrenz responds to AI and Cyan.
108: kpaca states that Syrenz is scum and votes him in follow-up post 109.
110: Ged posts some wishy-washy stuff with no clear conclusion.
115: I attack Syrenz, quoting posts 1152 and 1153 from Doha in their entirety to illustrate the contrast between Syrenz's posts in this game.
Syrenz says that the difference in position between posts 99 and 115 makes me scum. You don't go that far, stating only that I'm not "genuinely analyzing the meta" and "fitting the meta to whatever read you want to have on him."
Firstly, the latter quote doesn't mean that I'm scum and it doesn't mean that what I posted isn't accurate. Townies fit metas, posts, cases, any sort of evidence into their current reads all the time.
Secondly, I dispute the claim that "the tide was turning" between posts 79 and 99, then again between 99 and 115. What actually happened was that two players who hadn't commented on the Syrenz situation before post 99 backed Syrenz as town (Skander and Azrael) and two players who hadn't commented on the Syrenz situation before post 115 attacked him as scum (kpaca and Arcadic.) Nobody changed his or her position except me. AI and Cyan maintained their attacks on Syrenz; MH, Az and Skander maintained that he was not scum. All that happened was that I changed my mind. Like I already said, I went back and closely reviewed the actual posts from this game and Doha again, then came to a new conclusion.
It's too easy. (Don't even mention Carroll.)
I feel like you've done a great job of avoiding taking a position on what, to me, is the most important dispute in the game so far, and I feel that reflects badly on you.
Your posts are incredibly irritating to multi-quote.
I reserve the right to vote my mind at any point, with or without reasons. That said, I voted Syrenz because my gut was telling me that there was something up with him. I scrutinized his posts and isolated what was giving me that feeling, then presented it. Same way that all of my cases are built.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
So I've heard before. You're welcome to just remove the tags. My quotes don't have to be all pretty.
But you backed off at one point, then re-read the same evidence and decided it was scummy. This makes no sense to me.
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Seems like I've spent the last few games we've played together,
watching you spew bees out of your bonnet on account of my playstyle. I seem to recall remarking that you seemed to have a personal issue, and somebody made a comment about a chip being on someone's shoulder. *shrugs*
Regardless, I don't take your read seriously. You say I'm being aloof. I might be later on if my patience wears thin, but I'm certainly not right now.
I sense a note of...fear?
Oh, great, just encourage someone else to Nom/Tilde me. That's exactly what I need. Thanks, Manders.
Are we even on the poisoning yet?
Ten Az points if you can figure out why I'm giving you -10 townie points for this?
(This is so much more fun than trying to pick out who's the newb town. Very much more vintage Az, circa 2003-2005.)
Let Az know if you want Az's official town/scum scorecard posted to the thread. So far, Asianinvasion is waaaaay out in front for the good team with fifty points, and Zindabad and Manders are tied at -10, with Cyan trailing at 7 1/2.
Scorecards says I Vote Manders.
(We should string that dude up before he has time to entrench any further.)
(In before Arimnaes.)