So, do you think that the views of those about those semantics are a null tell? Or do you find their bickering to not contain any useful information? I think its far from pointless, since it's giving me plenty of insight. For instance, i dislike Guardman saying a vote should only be placed if someone is scum. A vote is a tool, and not wanting it used to its full potential is odd. ZDS's vote may be bad, but it certainly was a tool to jumpstart the conversations we've had so far. I find no fault in his vote, i find fault in the people attacking him for the vote. He clearly demonstated with his vote that AE was taking poggy seriously, because AE took ZDS's vote seriously.
I think that the bickering does not contain any useful information, and has led to Guardman tunnel visioning on ZDS. I think Guardman is being very rightous in his "we should only ever vote someone we think is scum" approach, and it feels townie to me (no matter how wrong it is in context).
I was reading your questions until now as town scumhunting, but this post leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You seem to be saying that I'm scummy because I admitted that my pressure read was probably too weak, and I need to put on more pressure before being satisfied in the future? I find it hard to believe that any reasonably experienced town player would think recognizing one's own errors and learning from them is a scum tell.
The thing that bothers me is that you didn't say "Oh, ok, I must have been wrong". Any concept of you being wrong just evolved from my questioning - it was something you had to be led very slowly towards. This doesn't feel like a townie admitting his mistake.
There's also the problem that - since admitting that you unvoted too easily - you didn't revote or re-explore ZDS. Your read was wrong, but you've not gone back to re-evaluate.
Quote from Archonoid »
More importantly, the rest of your post is entirely factually inaccurate - I explained my vote for ZDS, I gave my definition of "crack", and I've scumhunted both by pointing out posts that seem suspicious and by questioning statements that seem out of place. Town do not need to misrepresent facts to present a case, unless they're not paying attention - and I know you're paying attention from how frequent and detailed your posts are. Vote: Ecophagy.
Explaining your vote doesn't make the reaosning any more valid. To wit, you voted ZDS for appearing "strangley convinced" in his vote, for not posting, and for being "less convincing" than EP. This is a terrible reason to vote anyone.
You unvote ZDS because he gave "some sort of defence" (which was a single line long) (#101). This later morphed into being calm under pressure. As has been stated, the pressure was nowhere near anything substantial, and I simply find it difficult to believe that you felt it was.
You didn't explicitly define "crack". The closest I can find is #163 where you talk about tone (which can't be relevant because you say you don't have a meta read on ZDS). So, point out where you did, please.
I don't see you scumhunting - you didn't have a vote down, the vote you just put down is based on one post and not hunting, you didn't revisit ZDS after your read was shown to be flawed. Sure, you're questioning some things, but none of them have led to a vote, and you've barely even followed up on any.
Additionally, I found this in #91:
Quote from Archonoid »
- Interested in seeing what vezok will tell us later.
There is simply no town motivation behind this, but plenty of scum desire to subtly remind Vezok to claim.
I don't get it. So what if he quoted ZDS? He didn't vote him he said the quote was contradicting. Then later puts the vote on me.... Yeah I'm happy with my vote.
Plainly stating events as they happened.
Both of these points I had already responded to and repeated (the repeat came before your making sure Ged counted your vote).
You unvote ZDS because he gave "some sort of defence" (which was a single line long) (#101). This later morphed into being calm under pressure. As has been stated, the pressure was nowhere near anything substantial, and I simply find it difficult to believe that you felt it was.
I'm re-reading tonight, and this little dance keeps sticking in my head. The "defense" ZDS offered amounted to accusing Archonoid of trying to start a wagon over actual scumhunting. This after accusing his post content of being unconvincing, when others are pointing out that ZDS is simply *not* posting much at all at that point.
I just don't understand what's happening there; my gut feeling is that Archonoid made a wild stab to jump-start something, and got a little spooked at the immediate backlash; Emo jumped on him pretty hard for the terrible logic in his vote right off. That led to the attempt at a soft back-pedal over the next several pages.
Initially, I didn't mind the comment on Vezok 'revealing later', most likely because Vezok has been front-and-center in my sights. But rereading that post, it looks like a very uncomfortable throw-in of a statement among several, designed to push the focus off of the ZDS vote. (The Poggy statement in the same post seems like a thoughtless namedrop in the face of how Poggy was getting attention for being nutty in the early game.)
I'm still waiting on Vezok to respond, but his foot-dragging is delaying things that way for now, and feels a little deliberate. (You can comment on Guardman's attack on ZDS, but somehow lose the posts directed at you calling for answers that multiple people are looking for? Really?) So at this point-
Gotta work and watch the Stanley Cup. Weekend will free up time to address other things.
But... but... there's no hockey tonight.
On that note, Go Bruins. That was a hell of a game game one and Thomas is a beast. As for the "Go Bruins" it's not so much that I like the Bruins, but its just that as a Chicago Blackhawks fan there is no way in hell I want to see Vancouver win it.
Also:
Unvote ZDS
Since everybody seems to think my points against him are nitpicky/unreasonable/semantics. I am still going to keep an eye on him though.
On that note, Go Bruins. That was a hell of a game game one and Thomas is a beast. As for the "Go Bruins" it's not so much that I like the Bruins, but its just that as a Chicago Blackhawks fan there is no way in hell I want to see Vancouver win it.
The thing that bothers me is that you didn't say "Oh, ok, I must have been wrong". Any concept of you being wrong just evolved from my questioning - it was something you had to be led very slowly towards. This doesn't feel like a townie admitting his mistake.
Because I didn't immediately believe that I was wrong.
There's also the problem that - since admitting that you unvoted too easily - you didn't revote or re-explore ZDS. Your read was wrong, but you've not gone back to re-evaluate.
What point would revoting ZDS serve now? And why should I focus solely on one target when the thread has evolved significantly since then?
Explaining your vote doesn't make the reaosning any more valid. To wit, you voted ZDS for appearing "strangley convinced" in his vote, for not posting, and for being "less convincing" than EP. This is a terrible reason to vote anyone.
You unvote ZDS because he gave "some sort of defence" (which was a single line long) (#101). This later morphed into being calm under pressure. As has been stated, the pressure was nowhere near anything substantial, and I simply find it difficult to believe that you felt it was.
Both of these paragraphs amount to "Archonoid had different reads than I did, therefore he's scum".
You didn't explicitly define "crack". The closest I can find is #163 where you talk about tone (which can't be relevant because you say you don't have a meta read on ZDS). So, point out where you did, please.
I don't see you scumhunting - you didn't have a vote down, the vote you just put down is based on one post and not hunting, you didn't revisit ZDS after your read was shown to be flawed. Sure, you're questioning some things, but none of them have led to a vote, and you've barely even followed up on any.
You seem to be confusing "scumhunting" with "pushing a case". I am not interested in pushing a case until there is a case to be pushed - and until you started an increasingly worse series of misreps, I didn't see a good case. Now it seems your posts are building one for me:
Additionally, I found this in #91:
There is simply no town motivation behind this, but plenty of scum desire to subtly remind Vezok to claim.
Although I have to say L_P brings some good points.
I will think about this and tell you later.
It's completely obvious that I was interested in what it was that Vezok had to say about the wagons. There is simply no honest way to read my post as "reminding Vezok to claim".
If you were trying to actually find scum, you would not feel the need to make up evidence. You are trying to push a lynch on someone you think is a weaker player.
Because I read everything in that post but his vote for some reason and I thought it was odd that he didn't address Archonoid.
@RP: Instead of your opinion of Archonoid, how about your opinion of DYH, so I can have all acronyms?
ZDS: Playing a game, and therefore townish. Will let it proceed to the natural conclusion, if I don't see what I expect to, expect to see a sharp 180 followed by a rain of terror across this land.
AE: Lurker. Lurking lurk is lurkable. So... look, lemme let you in on a little secret. There's always at least one scum amongst the lurkers. Amesteria you could have hit 'bout 4 of the 7 by lurker lynching. So... I'll let it pass page bloody five, then tell you.
DYH: Town.
I'll give someone a cookie if they explain why my vote moved:
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
The Archonoid wagon is terrible. Eco's harping on Archonoid's unvote of me is terrible (what else was he supposed to do?). DJ's acting like this is the first time he's read the Archonoid/me/Eco interaction is terrible. Archonoid's defence is excellent and does a great job of showing the terribleness of Eco's case.
---
What are you standing there for, then? Are you happy to let LP do all the work for you?
^this^
ZDS, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that was the first time I've read the interaction; what I am guilty of was tunnel vision during my Vez/Poggy/DYH dance. Since Vez seems to be a little MIA, I decided to reread to start paying attention to the rest of the game. The wagon on Archonoid is what it is, but his vote/unvote on you is awful if you read back through it.
@RP:
Can I guess? One vote for "I checked out for several days, came back, and DJ was the first to bite on my empty accusations in the first post back."
I am all ears here, though. Looking forward to your answers to my questions still, since you've got the opposite read on two players that I have as scummy.
I'm very sorry , but tonight I have to go to a ball or something for the end of school. I'm going to highschool next year and this is the farewell party.
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You're the one putting words in my mouth, I didn't say you said you hadn't read the interaction before. I said you're acting like it. A lot has happened since the events you commented on, why only pay attention to the distant past and ignore most of Archonoid's play?
All in all this just looks like a convenient excuse to join a wagon.
Okay...fair thought. Like I said, this is the first time I've put any in-depth attention into a case other than the Vezok one. My honest opinion on this whole thing is that Arachonoid made a pretty terrible set of votes early on, presumably to get something moving in the early game. From there, once it was called out, the interaction didn't gain a ton of real momentum; the rest of it reads as sheer bickering/ sparrinb over word choice.
I don't think that invalidates the reason for it starting, though, and that's why I referenced that part as the reason for my vote. If you want to see it, I'd gladly walk through the rest and add my comments later on tonight.
Honestly...there isn't much happening here that really screams solid suspicion at all, which is why the votes seem to be so spread out. I'm trying to open up and try to help move the game here, rather than sitting back on a case that keeps getting hopelessly stalled out.
Can I guess? One vote for "I checked out for several days, came back, and DJ was the first to bite on my empty accusations in the first post back."
I am all ears here, though. Looking forward to your answers to my questions still, since you've got the opposite read on two players that I have as scummy.
It would be the beautiful way you aren't sure whether Arachnoid is an innocent victim being jumped on, or scum whose backpeddling. Your post waffles all between a defense and an attack, with a vote at the end of it.
I don't know what the hell it is, but... not town.
If this forum had Greasers, Phoenix, Commons and Semantics would be the leaders of the gang and every time they commented on something they would do a synchronized finger snap then smoke a cigarette.
Well, apparently my vote and a subsequent prod from our moderator has not yet gotten Zindabad's attention, so let me try this again:
OH, ZINDY! ZIIIIIIIIIIINDY! Come out and play!
Or should I just assume that you're running operation Led Zeppelin Mafia 2.0? (That did not work out well for you, as I recall.)
Also of uselessness - Wrath of Dog and poggydude. Start being useful, thank you very much.
This hasn't exactly been a normal early-game RVS/boring game. Stuff has happened. People have slap-fought. It's time for the uninvolved to get involved.
Hate the Archonoid wagon - mainly, I think, because DJC just joined it.
45: (AE) This seems like the game's jumping-off point, so let's begin. AE accuses poggy of possibly trying to get vezok to claim early. I fail to see why that would be a scummy action. A forced early claim on vezok revealed a scum, as AE, poggy, and vezok (and nearly everyone else in this game) all know since we were all just in that game.
50: (ZDS) If he's aiming for deadpan humor and failing, doesn't that mean he's not actually OMGUSing and overreacting?
59: (Archonoid) Didn't care for how he interjects into a discussion between E_P and L_P here.
63: (E_P): Not wild about this post. I feel that E_P has prepared an over-elaborate explanation in pre-emptive defense of his actions.
68 (Guardman): What's "just awful" and "just bad" about ZDS's post?
72 (WoD): Do not like.
74 (Guardman): Why the use of "case" here? Doesn't do it for me. ZDS voted AE. He hardly made a case.
75 (E_P): The self-conscious tone of this post is worrisome. "I'm not a player people allow to say 'I have reasons I don't want to post yet.'" Who is a player who gets away with it? Is L_P scum for picking up on your vote and letting poggy slide?
76 (DJ): Why do you say a "blind vote" (what I would call a "naked vote") "serves no purpose other than to garner attention", then turn around and say E_P's (and by extension poggy's) naked vote was "BS"?
77 and beyond (poggy): Please stop trolling and actually post something of use. You only distract from real scum targets.
91 (Archonoid): Comparing apples and oranges here. ZDS is on the attack, E_P is defending himself. Also, I hardly see why ZDS being "convinced" of an early attack would make him scum.
92 (E_P): This is more proof that E_P is scum. He immediately latches onto anything that will get him off the hook. '
98 (ZDS): I agree with the summation at the end of the post. Definitely don't see L_P as scum, however, and Guardman will probably lurk himself into evidence if he is scum. E_P should be the main focus.
99 (DJ): So someone who's probably town and who does whatever he feels like (poggy) should be pressured to explain what he's doing (ostensibly throwing down a "BS" naked vote - see above.) OK. Can you explain the significance of "head him off" in this post?
101 (Archonoid): Again, why should ZDS be defending himself?
104 (vezok): I agree that Archonoid is primarily looking for a wagon. I don't have a lot of experience with Guardman's town game - he was certainly bloodthirsty in Meadows, but there was a good reason for that.
106 (DJ): No answer to Ecophagy's primary question (about why "excuse") in this post.
111 (Archonoid): So there's no-one but E_P and ZDS who strike you (or struck you) as scummy?
117 (DYH): Not wild about the a-ha! nature of this post.
118 (vezok): Way to tell him you're just pressuring him.
126 (DJ): The D here is a little stronger than I had expected it to be. Encouraging sign for DJ.
128 (Guardman): What do you think I'm trying to say here? That you were stone-cold obvious scum in that game and probably will be again in this one if you are scum.
130 (poggy): This may be plainsight lurking. No content so far. Definitely one to watch.
135 (DJ): But I wasn't thrilled about this sequence where he states it's time to "move on"...and then heads to poggy. Not productive.
140 (vezok): It's not accurate to say that DJ has "said nothing" about poggy for contentless posting. Starting to really see DJ as a townie now.
143 (ZDS): Soft pokes at Jobie and Eco. Don't see Guardman as town. You sure you're playing for the white hats?
152 (DYH): Overly self-conscious. Possibly a jump-off because he can't make anything stick on DJ; possibly because there is no support. One to watch.
156 (E_P): Resurfaces after some of the pressure has been alleviated to have a go at poggy. This is not productive.
166 (AE): Fair observation, and it ties into both ZDS and vezok's interpretations of Archonoid as someone who's just looking for a wagon. Need wagon; will travel.
173 (Jobie): A pbpa and a good summation of his two classes of posts...but I fail to see where the vote is coming from.
176 (WoD): Nibbling around the edges, again. Scum? Scum.
179 (Archonoid): But this was a poor answer. "Crack" and "minor errors that accumulate" are not analogous. I can't really complain, considering I poorly phrase things often in this game, but there is a disconnect here.
185 (E_P): The problem is that your version of events is less believable than L_P's, and that's largely because of this part: "I then felt it comepletely went south and stated my reasoning plainly and admitting it was wrong." That's the scum part of your behavior. Overly self-conscious and tentative.
197 (DYH): It really wasn't. I usually manage 300 or so posts before being summoned. In fact, when Ged missed the first prod on me, I thought he was acknowledging that and giving me a pass, knowing I would return with bountiful content. Guess not. :|
200 (Ecophagy): I don't know. I'm still not sold. Archonoid has played in a very detached, mechanical fashion, but I don't see that being the province of noob scum. Did we get a summary of his mafia history?
216 (Jobie): Why are you barning? You were already voting him. You did a pbpa. Remember? Oh, now I get it. The explanation for why his posting style is not that of a noob scum is because he's being coached in daytalk. Yeah, I don't buy it and this makes me not want to vote Archonoid anymore.
229 (E_P): Your fixation on AE is really worrisome, and I hate how you and ZDS seem to be backing one another up. Really getting bad vibes here. The tone of your posts to L_P have slightly more emotion than the barn attempt you threw at me in Hecatea, but that can be attributed to the fact that you're on the receiving end of a fairly fierce barrage.
***
unvote; vote E_P.
WoD is probably scum, Guardman is probably town, AE is probably town, DYH could go either way. DJ feels like he has certainly committed scummy actions, but has defended himself as a townie. Archonoid feels like he has defended himself like a scum, but I can't see him being this blase about "recalibrating" and wagon-jumping as scum. Noob scum know wagon-hopping is bad. They do it anyway, but they try not to be overt about it. ZDS scares the daylights out of me. Jobie is also 50-50 at the moment.
It would be the beautiful way you aren't sure whether Arachnoid is an innocent victim being jumped on, or scum whose backpeddling. Your post waffles all between a defense and an attack, with a vote at the end of it.
I don't know what the hell it is, but... not town.
I thought my post was pretty clear...the vote/unvote felt like a scum-wagon start due to the terrible logic and percieved bad camoflage. Then, I stated that it looked like a soft backpedal from there on out with little content from there. I said the logic Arach used was so backwards in the vote that it had to be a scum-flail, or else he was nuts.
Where is there a waffle in here?
And now DYH...whatever. Every damn time I try to do anything in here, I get jumped on, even if someone else has been doing the same thing as well. It's making it impossible for me to try to hunt, because i'm just stuck defending myself. This is no god-#@%! fun.
unvote
Read into it any damn way you want...scum implosion, whatever. I'm having a hard time caring right now.
Wake me up when Vezok actually gets around to answering my questions.
63: (E_P): Not wild about this post. I feel that E_P has prepared an over-elaborate explanation in pre-emptive defense of his actions.
75 (E_P): The self-conscious tone of this post is worrisome. "I'm not a player people allow to say 'I have reasons I don't want to post yet.'" Who is a player who gets away with it? Is L_P scum for picking up on your vote and letting poggy slide?
92 (E_P): This is more proof that E_P is scum. He immediately latches onto anything that will get him off the hook. '
156 (E_P): Resurfaces after some of the pressure has been alleviated to have a go at poggy. This is not productive.
185 (E_P): The problem is that your version of events is less believable than L_P's, and that's largely because of this part: "I then felt it comepletely went south and stated my reasoning plainly and admitting it was wrong." That's the scum part of your behavior. Overly self-conscious and tentative.
229 (E_P): Your fixation on AE is really worrisome, and I hate how you and ZDS seem to be backing one another up. Really getting bad vibes here. The tone of your posts to L_P have slightly more emotion than the barn attempt you threw at me in Hecatea, but that can be attributed to the fact that you're on the receiving end of a fairly fierce barrage.
@63: This is a stupid argument that makes no sense from a scum perspective. Especially in a fashion that moves out of RVS. Especially with no support. Especially when it gains me nothing. L_P tried to explain away my reason to expose myself to ridicule early and for no good reason as "AE is a bad player, and this will look bad in retrospect", what's yours?
@75: Are you honestly telling me that there's not a significant number of players that get away with saying they have reasons but don't want to post them? It's pretty obvious that Seppel, Cyan, poggy, vez, Zionite, or even Az would all do something like that with no one paying attention to it. The reason L_P picked up were things I was concerned would blow up my idea, I listed them and then explained why they are not true. Had I been one of many other players it would have just gone under the radar. It's not me being singled out or picked on, it's simply I'm excluded from a group that get away with it.
@92: Wow. You may actually be scum trying to use logic like this. I'm not allowed to scumhunt when under pressure and responding to any point against me? I might believe you had you said #89, but 92? It's the largest wagon in the game at this point and I was the first person posting on it because of this exact post! The entire case starts here - one you are waffling on - and I'm scum for attacking him? What a horrible point. Notice the DJ wagon I didn't join, trying to shift the blame to a poggy pretending the game was no happening around him, or OMGUS. Really, really poor logic from you here, zindy.
@156: "Resurfaces"? "After some pressure was off"? I'm one of the most active people in this game, and L_P is the only one putting pressure on me, the rest just /barned and hadn't moved their votes. That's two instances of very poor logic on your part in a row.
@185: Everything went and has gone exactly how I said it would, so I would say I'm justified in being self-conscious. It's like I said - It was something I saw going wrong, it went wrong, and I abandoned it quickly. That's not a reason I'm lying, that's a reason I'm not lying. L_P is saying I just made up the response after noticing why my vote looked bad after the fact. You are saying I knew the vote was bad and decided to do it anyways despite having a bad plan to get away with it. It doesn't make sense.
@229: My fixation with AE is justified. He managed to not say anything in any of his responses and blamed it onevents that still have not happened. That's a really ☺☺☺☺ty excuse if you are going to blame real life. I'm also pointing out that AE has done zero scum hunting. At all. Not even trying a little. That seems perfectly valid since he's lumped himself on two obvious targets and dodging anyone questioning his behavior. Unless you are claiming he's outstandingly townie for pointing out that DJ is probably not scum, I'm not sure what your point is. What's worse is you're not quoting my post #183 where I blamed AE for switching wagons in a mannor that doesn't make sense when I he never unvoted me.
-----
Yep, you call AE town with no logic whatsoever. The only post you have is the post to poggy that no one but ZDS called scummy, and the post where he's attacking Archonoid for things people already said. It appears you have lumped him intot he town column because of me.
I also notice you point out this:
Quote from zindy »
77 and beyond (poggy): Please stop trolling and actually post something of use. You only distract from real scum targets.
But when I do the exact same thing you call it scummy.
The entire summary of the game is very poor, and I think you are likely to be scum. You have attacked me for posts that you either made yourself or you support coming from other players, and your logic that I (as scum) made up an elaborate excuse before voting AE the first time instead in response to LP does not mesh at all.
Archonoid: I'm mulling over the reponse, but in the meantime, could you give me a list of games you've played?
Basic 35 (replaced for Reya Cookiebringer)
Basic 37 (ongoing)
Zindabad: I don't like how casually you categorize WoD as "probably scum". I don't see anything about the two posts you quoted that is strongly suspicious, so why do you give him the strongest scum rating of the ones you've listed so far?
Since I screwed up seeing his vote on Arch, I decided I needed a substitute. I decided to pick DYH, since he also is an acronym'ed name (technically).
@Zindabad: I'm very wishy-washy about how I feel about Archonoid. It's one of those "he doesn't look terribly scummy, but something doesn't sit right" reads. That's what's warranting the vote. The fact that I'm wary of noob's posting very well because of the possibility of daytalk coaching is an adjacent comment, but not the reason behind my vote.
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Do you actually care about RP's (undisclosed) opinions, and if you do, why don't you just go ahead and ask his opinions on everyone?
I do care, he had just had a post about a good majority of the game, so I picked a selection of the few people he didn't talk about (I think the only one left out is Zinda, who hadn't done much to that point, so I felt it useless to ask his opinion of him).
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I thought my post was pretty clear...the vote/unvote felt like a scum-wagon start due to the terrible logic and percieved bad camoflage. Then, I stated that it looked like a soft backpedal from there on out with little content from there. I said the logic Arach used was so backwards in the vote that it had to be a scum-flail, or else he was nuts.
Where is there a waffle in here?
And now DYH...whatever. Every damn time I try to do anything in here, I get jumped on, even if someone else has been doing the same thing as well. It's making it impossible for me to try to hunt, because i'm just stuck defending myself. This is no god-#@%! fun.
unvote
So, you give a whole lot of reasons why you think I'm scum - then you unvote me? With the only explanation offered being that you have to defend yourself? If your opinion on me had changed, that would be one thing, but unvoting without any reason related to your target does not seem town.
Great. AE answered one question twice and is blatantly stalling on the second.
You had a question in that last post? Not stalling. Will go look for it.
Seriously? You're blaming a game that isn't even played for two more days? And how does that free up time on the weekend?
Cmon now. Stop trying to smear. The games as a whole is only part of it. Work is another. Don't work on the weekend so I have more time to go over the game.
AE: Lurker. Lurking lurk is lurkable. So... look, lemme let you in on a little secret. There's always at least one scum amongst the lurkers. Amesteria you could have hit 'bout 4 of the 7 by lurker lynching. So... I'll let it pass page bloody five, then tell you.
Thats a good tip. We should start with the prod-ies.
@63: This is a stupid argument that makes no sense from a scum perspective. Especially in a fashion that moves out of RVS. Especially with no support. Especially when it gains me nothing. L_P tried to explain away my reason to expose myself to ridicule early and for no good reason as "AE is a bad player, and this will look bad in retrospect", what's yours?
@75: Are you honestly telling me that there's not a significant number of players that get away with saying they have reasons but don't want to post them? It's pretty obvious that Seppel, Cyan, poggy, vez, Zionite, or even Az would all do something like that with no one paying attention to it. The reason L_P picked up were things I was concerned would blow up my idea, I listed them and then explained why they are not true. Had I been one of many other players it would have just gone under the radar. It's not me being singled out or picked on, it's simply I'm excluded from a group that get away with it.
It sounds like you decided to do something that you already knew was a bad idea and could list the points for why it was a bad idea in detail (you had them ready for when you were pulled up on it).
Can you explain why you did it, then? And why you immediately distanced yourself from it as soon as you had been questioned on it by one player?
@92: Wow. You may actually be scum trying to use logic like this. I'm not allowed to scumhunt when under pressure and responding to any point against me? I might believe you had you said #89, but 92? It's the largest wagon in the game at this point and I was the first person posting on it because of this exact post! The entire case starts here - one you are waffling on - and I'm scum for attacking him? What a horrible point. Notice the DJ wagon I didn't join, trying to shift the blame to a poggy pretending the game was no happening around him, or OMGUS. Really, really poor logic from you here, zindy.
You try to retcon it to make it look like you're initiating a case or taking part in a wagon, but what you were really doing was trying to deflect attention off yourself by calling out a new player making a phrasing error. You wanted to make it look like you were catching a slip, and your explanation is "well, at least I didn't go after poggy." Nice attempt to discredit, though.
@156: "Resurfaces"? "After some pressure was off"? I'm one of the most active people in this game, and L_P is the only one putting pressure on me, the rest just /barned and hadn't moved their votes. That's two instances of very poor logic on your part in a row.
So votes are the only pressure in this game? Everyone except L_P had stopped talking about you. You thought it was safe to come out again.
@185: Everything went and has gone exactly how I said it would, so I would say I'm justified in being self-conscious. It's like I said - It was something I saw going wrong, it went wrong, and I abandoned it quickly. That's not a reason I'm lying, that's a reason I'm not lying. L_P is saying I just made up the response after noticing why my vote looked bad after the fact. You are saying I knew the vote was bad and decided to do it anyways despite having a bad plan to get away with it. It doesn't make sense.
But - as I said above - neither does your version. Would you say that it was a mistake either way? In that case, can you explain to me how it makes more sense as a town mistake than as a scum mistake? I think the way you have gone about your own defense - as I outlined - is what really shows you to be scum, not the actual incident that provoked L_P's investigation.
@229: My fixation with AE is justified. He managed to not say anything in any of his responses and blamed it onevents that still have not happened. That's a really ☺☺☺☺ty excuse if you are going to blame real life. I'm also pointing out that AE has done zero scum hunting. At all. Not even trying a little. That seems perfectly valid since he's lumped himself on two obvious targets and dodging anyone questioning his behavior. Unless you are claiming he's outstandingly townie for pointing out that DJ is probably not scum, I'm not sure what your point is. What's worse is you're not quoting my post #183 where I blamed AE for switching wagons in a mannor that doesn't make sense when I he never unvoted me.
I find it more plausible that AE is another soft target that you're trying to latch onto, not with the real intention of ever getting him lynched, but rather as a port in a storm. You're waiting for it all to blow over.
AE hasn't seemed particularly scummy to me. Some of the things he's getting picked up on for are virtually analogous to plays he made in Amistaria, plays that I eventually got him lynched for as town. I also disagree that he's done "zero scumhunting."
About? Vez claiming? I never like early soft claims or random claims being thrown out.
This makes sense and gives me no faith in Emo.
I was not taking Poggys claim seriously. In #20 I believe he mentioned Vez on purpose. #22 I see him pressing the matter. He sees pressing Vez as an easy claim. What LP said about Poggy is the norm which is pretty disheartening. he is ignored.He just says things for the sake of saying them however scummy it comes across and typically gets a by for it as that is how he plays.
Lets look at this. Your so convinced but you did not vote me until Emo jumped on. It looks oppertunistic and using your meta to get you by.
I'm more interested in Emo than Poggy. I want to see Emo pursued. His unconvincing reasoning for voting me comes across as a farce.
The entire summary of the game is very poor, and I think you are likely to be scum. You have attacked me for posts that you either made yourself or you support coming from other players, and your logic that I (as scum) made up an elaborate excuse before voting AE the first time instead in response to LP does not mesh at all.
Neither does your own logic regarding the same event, and your over-defensiveness, furtive behavior under questioning, and attempts to dismiss your attackers signal that you are scum.
Please identify what other aspects of the summary were "very poor", considering you mentioned nothing but what directly related to you or your interlocutors.
Zindabad: I don't like how casually you categorize WoD as "probably scum". I don't see anything about the two posts you quoted that is strongly suspicious, so why do you give him the strongest scum rating of the ones you've listed so far?
Really sparse, barny posts early on are WoD's scum meta. See Sword of Truth.
@Zindabad: I'm very wishy-washy about how I feel about Archonoid. It's one of those "he doesn't look terribly scummy, but something doesn't sit right" reads. That's what's warranting the vote. The fact that I'm wary of noob's posting very well because of the possibility of daytalk coaching is an adjacent comment, but not the reason behind my vote.
So you can't put your finger on what's causing you to vote Archonoid. It's just "something that doesn't sit right." Is that accurate?
It sounds like you decided to do something that you already knew was a bad idea and could list the points for why it was a bad idea in detail (you had them ready for when you were pulled up on it).
Can you explain why you did it, then? And why you immediately distanced yourself from it as soon as you had been questioned on it by one player?
If I know it's a bad idea as scum, why would I think it ever would be worth pursuing on page two of Day 1 with no tangible benefit to me other than this "lobbing onto a soft target" crap? It's not "I'm not that bad" it's that you see me as recognizing why it's bad prior to doing it and still doing it.
As to why I did it, I thought there was a benefit to be had so long as there wasn't immediate backlash that would alleiviate any pressure AE would feel at all. I have also pointed this out three times now: if AE sees a couple votes against him, and then sees a couple of people vouching for him there's no pressure to respond and opens the door to targeting his wagon as scummy (which I since admitted would have been there even if the plan worked).
Quote from zindabad »
You try to retcon it to make it look like you're initiating a case or taking part in a wagon, but what you were really doing was trying to deflect attention off yourself by calling out a new player making a phrasing error. You wanted to make it look like you were catching a slip, and your explanation is "well, at least I didn't go after poggy." Nice attempt to discredit, though.
You are an idiot to press something so wrong.
Ecophagy's case is built on the same post for the same reasons I had. You cannot support what Eco's sayign and condemn what I said - it's simply not an option to pick and choose like that.
Also, I didn't say "at least I didn't go after poggy", I said there were other more immediate pushes that had some backing already versus going after another player with zero suspcion at the time. It doesn't fit with your deflection logic.
Quote from zindabad »
So votes are the only pressure in this game? Everyone except L_P had stopped talking about you. You thought it was safe to come out again.
LP WAS THE ONLY PERSON TALKING ABOUT ME!
Others voted, but they 100% barned what he had said with no additional comments or adding anything else to respond to. If anyone had anything they wanted me to respond to I certainly was posting, so they could have pointed to what I missed.
Quote from zindabad »
But - as I said above - neither does your version. Would you say that it was a mistake either way? In that case, can you explain to me how it makes more sense as a town mistake than as a scum mistake? I think the way you have gone about your own defense - as I outlined - is what really shows you to be scum, not the actual incident that provoked L_P's investigation.
So I'm not scum for lying, I'm scum for telling the truth. I'm scum for recognizing what could go wrong before acting, but acting on it despite risks? I'm scum for recognizing that my fears have been realized and immediately dropping what I was going for?
The reason scum would not make this mistake in your version is because I recognize how bad it might look and would not risk it. The reason scum would not make this mistake in LP's version is that every point I brought up was 100% truthful, and therefore not completely made up after I placed a bad vote.
Quote from zindabad »
I find it more plausible that AE is another soft target that you're trying to latch onto, not with the real intention of ever getting him lynched, but rather as a port in a storm. You're waiting for it all to blow over.
AE hasn't seemed particularly scummy to me. Some of the things he's getting picked up on for are virtually analogous to plays he made in Amistaria, plays that I eventually got him lynched for as town. I also disagree that he's done "zero scumhunting."
I could find more.
I'm waiting for what to blow over? I'm posting constantly and responding to everything. That's the opposite of waiting it out.
AE is scummy to me because even in the posts you highlight he is saying are repeating what people have already said or completely barning what they have said against players. Even including the poggy stuff, he has completely killed it.
Quote from zindabad »
The difference is that I wasn't under attack at the time.
Should I wait for DYH to weigh in on this?
Quote from zindabad »
Neither does your own logic regarding the same event, and your over-defensiveness, furtive behavior under questioning, and attempts to dismiss your attackers signal that you are scum.
Please identify what other aspects of the summary were "very poor", considering you mentioned nothing but what directly related to you or your interlocutors.
My own logic is perfectly in line with what I am saying. LP just doesn't believe I recognized that logic beforhand, and you think only scum would take what they recognize as a risk.
My over-defensiveness? That's new. I'm scum for responding to LP and now you. Thanks for that.
My dismissal of attackers? I'm addressing everything people have said, despite your attacks being very bad - to which I say why they're bad. I only stopped some of the back and forth with LP because the quote war is unneeded and unproductive.
Why would I have to stray further than that to prove you wrong. You're using the same logic as me for poggy, but I'm scum and you're not. You're waffling on Eco's logic against Archonoid, but I'm scum for spotting similair problems. And you attack on me makes no sense from the perspective that I'm telling the truth about recognizing the potential problems with voting for AE like I did. You call AE town for no reason, and still cannot back it up other than "he's not scummy" (absence of scummy posts is not indicitive of a townie). Those are plenty of reasons to say the majority of your PBPA is poor since they are most of what you said.
You know what it is, the reason I think you are not even reading people attacking you?
You are rolling over to LP and zindabad saying I targeted you because you're an easy target. I cannot imagine anyone would read not one but two exchanges like that and let them carry the charge.
On top of that, the exchange between LP and myself is at a complete halt with it not gathering enough votes to get me lynched. That's a stalled wagont hat requires people that agree with it to push it forward (like zindabad is attempting).
You know what it is, the reason I think you are not even reading people attacking you?
You are rolling over to LP and zindabad saying I targeted you because you're an easy target. I cannot imagine anyone would read not one but two exchanges like that and let them carry the charge.
On top of that, the exchange between LP and myself is at a complete halt with it not gathering enough votes to get me lynched. That's a stalled wagont hat requires people that agree with it to push it forward (like zindabad is attempting).
Seriously, are you starting to flail?
Your attacking me now because LP and Zind are attacking you and I'm not saying anything? That sounds like an attempt to get ZDS in here to jump on and attack me on the subject to relieve the attention on you.
Zindabad is pushing the stalled wagon forward. OK.
Your attacking me now because LP and Zind are attacking you and I'm not saying anything? That sounds like an attempt to get ZDS in here to jump on and attack me on the subject to relieve the attention on you.
Zindabad is pushing the stalled wagon forward. OK.
Flailing? I've been very consistant with my approach to everything this game. Everything. I'm getting ☺☺☺☺ted on for wanting a better read on you, and now you're claiming I'm flailing for continuing to call you out for doing nothing when it doesn't make sense for you to simply do nothing.
I've been attacking you for doing nothing for pages now, and your response is to say I don't need to do anything because LP and zindabad will do it for me?
I'm attempting to get ZDS to come on thread and attack you for... the subject I am attacking you for as a defence for me?
Zindabad pushing a stalled wagon? Then you don't think LP is doing a good enough job but still do nothing?
Flailing? I've been very consistant with my approach to everything this game. Everything. I'm getting ☺☺☺☺ted on for wanting a better read on you, and now you're claiming I'm flailing for continuing to call you out for doing nothing when it doesn't make sense for you to simply do nothing.
Your trying to turn the attention onto me now that LP and Zindabad are attacking you. Attacking me because I haven't added to what they have said. Plus to say I have done nothing this game is an absolute lie. A total smear.
I've been attacking you for doing nothing for pages now, and your response is to say I don't need to do anything because LP and zindabad will do it for me?
Again, misleading.
I'm attempting to get ZDS to come on thread and attack you for... the subject I am attacking you for as a defence for me?
Could have been a bit overzealous here. The way you have been following his lead you could have been reaching out.
Zindabad pushing a stalled wagon? Then you don't think LP is doing a good enough job but still do nothing?
I said LP is doing fine didn't I? You said your wagon is stalled because no one agrees to further push it. You were wrong, Zindabad has pushed it.
Originally Posted by Lost_Profit I can't tell yet if ZDS is scum as well, but either way the Archmage_Eternal wagon sucks.
Jobie these are just some of the votes your throwing around. Your being the poster child of opportunistic. You weren't buying my wagon but now your barning again. What you are is willing to jump on any wagon going.
Jobie these are just some of the votes your throwing around. Your being the poster child of opportunistic. You weren't buying my wagon but now your barning again. What you are is willing to jump on any wagon going.
The first 3 are me being sure, unsure and sure of my gut, respectively.
I originally wasn't buying it because you were reading townie. This last exchange between you and E_P flipped a switch for me, you're being a little too frantic.
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Poggy is doing a similar thing. That's why I keep prompting him over and over to answer my question.
I don't believe they're baseless; nothing in this game really is. I have a problem with them because his attack on me seems based more on my use of the word 'lurking' and my application of it, and not the meat of my argument.
Here's where I'm at:
1. You were very quiet for the entire beginning of the game.
2. You suddenly attacked me by barning another line of questioning out of the blue, one that Eco has said wasn't anything but a line of questioning anyway.
3. You followed that up by a vote on someone else.
4. You responded to my attack with defense until you got another person to jump on with you and vote first, at which point you then voted.
Here are my two questions to you:
1. What about Eco's line of questioning led you to believe it was scummy?
2. Why did you wait until DYH voted me to vote as well?
--->DJ
1. The way you responded. It seemed to me like you were just trying to have eco go away.
2. I wasn't so sure of myself. And even if I don't remember exactly I probably forgot. I had an incredibly busy week with exams parties and stuff like that.
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Emo started attacking Archmage long after LP started attacking Emo, and Zindabad started attacking Emo long after Emo started attacking Archmage.
These are the posts that Emo has directed at me early on. He has not attacked me. He has followed your lead twice in voting me. What he is doing now is trying to deflect on to me for the fact that LP has been attacking him and now Zindabad has started attacking him and I haven't added to the case.
Originally Posted by Jobie
I originally wasn't buying it because you were reading townie. This last exchange between you and E_P flipped a switch for me, you're being a little too frantic.
I'm not going to go post by post and point it out, but once your points are shot down, you quickly move to a different approach. Frantic isn't the perfect word for it. Anxious almost fits better. There's a better word than both of those, but I can't come up with it.
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Right. He's voting you for your horrible reasoning against Archonoid .
Good one. Twisting it to your liking. Thats what your vote was for. His vote was for me unvoting him and voting Archonoid. Which never happened. Heres the quote.
Originally Posted by Emo_Pinata unvote, vote AE
With that reasoning, why would ever unvote me to switch to Archnoid?
Originally Posted by ZDS he's accusing you of passively following LP's lead, but other than that he's not attacking you
Hes not accusing me of following LP he clairly said I wasn't reading those posts.
That should say "the reason I think you are not even reading the posts of people attacking me" not you.
Good one. Twisting it to your liking. Thats what your vote was for. His vote was for me unvoting him and voting Archonoid. Which never happened. Heres the quote.
Now you're saying that the basis for his attack on you was faulty. That's entirely different from "he has not attacked me".
Now you're saying that the basis for his attack on you was faulty. That's entirely different from "he has not attacked me".
Did I say "his attack on me was faulty"? He voted for me under false pretenses. I don't consider that much of an attack, a quick "vote AE your reason doesn't mess" post.
So I finished my reread and I still think AE's case is bad. And while I am not a fan of either EP or ZDS at this point I am actually much more interested in Poggydude.
I've played with poggy as town and I've never seen him act like this. As town I find he is usually more of a Seppel/Tilde mix with a bit of Vezo thrown in for good measure. But this I just don't know what to make of this play.
1. He jumps onto the AE wagon with no comment, just a vote.
2. When asked why he did it he then claims AE claimed scum and then avoided answering questions about it until he admitted he still thought we were in the random stage, half-way, still. Which really doesn't make sense when you think about it.
th overreaction/serioius business bugged me but really not enough for a full vote
unvote
Unvotes here. Explains his reasoning for his unvoting of AE (after the repeated questioning of why he voted) as the serious business/overreacting stuff wasn't enough for a vote, but when he voted that was really the only thing against AE, which is a contradiction of his actions.
Because I read everything in that post but his vote for some reason and I thought it was odd that he didn't address Archonoid.
@RP: Instead of your opinion of Archonoid, how about your opinion of DYH, so I can have all acronyms?
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I think that the bickering does not contain any useful information, and has led to Guardman tunnel visioning on ZDS. I think Guardman is being very rightous in his "we should only ever vote someone we think is scum" approach, and it feels townie to me (no matter how wrong it is in context).
The thing that bothers me is that you didn't say "Oh, ok, I must have been wrong". Any concept of you being wrong just evolved from my questioning - it was something you had to be led very slowly towards. This doesn't feel like a townie admitting his mistake.
There's also the problem that - since admitting that you unvoted too easily - you didn't revote or re-explore ZDS. Your read was wrong, but you've not gone back to re-evaluate.
Explaining your vote doesn't make the reaosning any more valid. To wit, you voted ZDS for appearing "strangley convinced" in his vote, for not posting, and for being "less convincing" than EP. This is a terrible reason to vote anyone.
You unvote ZDS because he gave "some sort of defence" (which was a single line long) (#101). This later morphed into being calm under pressure. As has been stated, the pressure was nowhere near anything substantial, and I simply find it difficult to believe that you felt it was.
You didn't explicitly define "crack". The closest I can find is #163 where you talk about tone (which can't be relevant because you say you don't have a meta read on ZDS). So, point out where you did, please.
I don't see you scumhunting - you didn't have a vote down, the vote you just put down is based on one post and not hunting, you didn't revisit ZDS after your read was shown to be flawed. Sure, you're questioning some things, but none of them have led to a vote, and you've barely even followed up on any.
Additionally, I found this in #91:
There is simply no town motivation behind this, but plenty of scum desire to subtly remind Vezok to claim.
What, two posts questioning Archonoid? I find Archonoid suspect, I'm not just going to ignore him.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Plainly stating events as they happened.
Both of these points I had already responded to and repeated (the repeat came before your making sure Ged counted your vote).
Your scum hunting since:
Two questions to Archonoid, not vote, no addressing anything else.
Emos point is flawed. Its on the notion I voted Archnoid. I did not. I believe Emo is scum and will follow up with that. I'm suspicious of Archnoid.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I'm re-reading tonight, and this little dance keeps sticking in my head. The "defense" ZDS offered amounted to accusing Archonoid of trying to start a wagon over actual scumhunting. This after accusing his post content of being unconvincing, when others are pointing out that ZDS is simply *not* posting much at all at that point.
I just don't understand what's happening there; my gut feeling is that Archonoid made a wild stab to jump-start something, and got a little spooked at the immediate backlash; Emo jumped on him pretty hard for the terrible logic in his vote right off. That led to the attempt at a soft back-pedal over the next several pages.
Otherwise, it's completely bass-ackwards logically.
Initially, I didn't mind the comment on Vezok 'revealing later', most likely because Vezok has been front-and-center in my sights. But rereading that post, it looks like a very uncomfortable throw-in of a statement among several, designed to push the focus off of the ZDS vote. (The Poggy statement in the same post seems like a thoughtless namedrop in the face of how Poggy was getting attention for being nutty in the early game.)
I'm still waiting on Vezok to respond, but his foot-dragging is delaying things that way for now, and feels a little deliberate. (You can comment on Guardman's attack on ZDS, but somehow lose the posts directed at you calling for answers that multiple people are looking for? Really?) So at this point-
Vote Archonoid
FoS Vezokpiraka
--->DJ
Gotta work and watch the Stanley Cup. Weekend will free up time to address other things.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
But... but... there's no hockey tonight.
On that note, Go Bruins. That was a hell of a game game one and Thomas is a beast. As for the "Go Bruins" it's not so much that I like the Bruins, but its just that as a Chicago Blackhawks fan there is no way in hell I want to see Vancouver win it.
Also:
Unvote ZDS
Since everybody seems to think my points against him are nitpicky/unreasonable/semantics. I am still going to keep an eye on him though.
Need to reread to before anything else.
Guardmans obvious town. Just sayn'.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Seriously? You're blaming a game that isn't even played for two more days? And how does that free up time on the weekend?
Both of these paragraphs amount to "Archonoid had different reads than I did, therefore he's scum". #179.
You seem to be confusing "scumhunting" with "pushing a case". I am not interested in pushing a case until there is a case to be pushed - and until you started an increasingly worse series of misreps, I didn't see a good case. Now it seems your posts are building one for me:
This is the post i was responding to:
It's completely obvious that I was interested in what it was that Vezok had to say about the wagons. There is simply no honest way to read my post as "reminding Vezok to claim".
If you were trying to actually find scum, you would not feel the need to make up evidence. You are trying to push a lynch on someone you think is a weaker player.
ZDS: Playing a game, and therefore townish. Will let it proceed to the natural conclusion, if I don't see what I expect to, expect to see a sharp 180 followed by a rain of terror across this land.
AE: Lurker. Lurking lurk is lurkable. So... look, lemme let you in on a little secret. There's always at least one scum amongst the lurkers. Amesteria you could have hit 'bout 4 of the 7 by lurker lynching. So... I'll let it pass page bloody five, then tell you.
DYH: Town.
I'll give someone a cookie if they explain why my vote moved:
Vote: DJ Catchem
I so don't like you right now.
ZDS, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that was the first time I've read the interaction; what I am guilty of was tunnel vision during my Vez/Poggy/DYH dance. Since Vez seems to be a little MIA, I decided to reread to start paying attention to the rest of the game. The wagon on Archonoid is what it is, but his vote/unvote on you is awful if you read back through it.
@RP:
Can I guess? One vote for "I checked out for several days, came back, and DJ was the first to bite on my empty accusations in the first post back."
I am all ears here, though. Looking forward to your answers to my questions still, since you've got the opposite read on two players that I have as scummy.
--->DJ
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Okay...fair thought. Like I said, this is the first time I've put any in-depth attention into a case other than the Vezok one. My honest opinion on this whole thing is that Arachonoid made a pretty terrible set of votes early on, presumably to get something moving in the early game. From there, once it was called out, the interaction didn't gain a ton of real momentum; the rest of it reads as sheer bickering/ sparrinb over word choice.
I don't think that invalidates the reason for it starting, though, and that's why I referenced that part as the reason for my vote. If you want to see it, I'd gladly walk through the rest and add my comments later on tonight.
Honestly...there isn't much happening here that really screams solid suspicion at all, which is why the votes seem to be so spread out. I'm trying to open up and try to help move the game here, rather than sitting back on a case that keeps getting hopelessly stalled out.
--->DJ
It would be the beautiful way you aren't sure whether Arachnoid is an innocent victim being jumped on, or scum whose backpeddling. Your post waffles all between a defense and an attack, with a vote at the end of it.
I don't know what the hell it is, but... not town.
OH, ZINDY! ZIIIIIIIIIIINDY! Come out and play!
Or should I just assume that you're running operation Led Zeppelin Mafia 2.0? (That did not work out well for you, as I recall.)
Also of uselessness - Wrath of Dog and poggydude. Start being useful, thank you very much.
This hasn't exactly been a normal early-game RVS/boring game. Stuff has happened. People have slap-fought. It's time for the uninvolved to get involved.
Hate the Archonoid wagon - mainly, I think, because DJC just joined it.
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
50: (ZDS) If he's aiming for deadpan humor and failing, doesn't that mean he's not actually OMGUSing and overreacting?
59: (Archonoid) Didn't care for how he interjects into a discussion between E_P and L_P here.
63: (E_P): Not wild about this post. I feel that E_P has prepared an over-elaborate explanation in pre-emptive defense of his actions.
68 (Guardman): What's "just awful" and "just bad" about ZDS's post?
72 (WoD): Do not like.
74 (Guardman): Why the use of "case" here? Doesn't do it for me. ZDS voted AE. He hardly made a case.
75 (E_P): The self-conscious tone of this post is worrisome. "I'm not a player people allow to say 'I have reasons I don't want to post yet.'" Who is a player who gets away with it? Is L_P scum for picking up on your vote and letting poggy slide?
76 (DJ): Why do you say a "blind vote" (what I would call a "naked vote") "serves no purpose other than to garner attention", then turn around and say E_P's (and by extension poggy's) naked vote was "BS"?
77 and beyond (poggy): Please stop trolling and actually post something of use. You only distract from real scum targets.
91 (Archonoid): Comparing apples and oranges here. ZDS is on the attack, E_P is defending himself. Also, I hardly see why ZDS being "convinced" of an early attack would make him scum.
92 (E_P): This is more proof that E_P is scum. He immediately latches onto anything that will get him off the hook. '
98 (ZDS): I agree with the summation at the end of the post. Definitely don't see L_P as scum, however, and Guardman will probably lurk himself into evidence if he is scum. E_P should be the main focus.
99 (DJ): So someone who's probably town and who does whatever he feels like (poggy) should be pressured to explain what he's doing (ostensibly throwing down a "BS" naked vote - see above.) OK. Can you explain the significance of "head him off" in this post?
101 (Archonoid): Again, why should ZDS be defending himself?
104 (vezok): I agree that Archonoid is primarily looking for a wagon. I don't have a lot of experience with Guardman's town game - he was certainly bloodthirsty in Meadows, but there was a good reason for that.
106 (DJ): No answer to Ecophagy's primary question (about why "excuse") in this post.
111 (Archonoid): So there's no-one but E_P and ZDS who strike you (or struck you) as scummy?
117 (DYH): Not wild about the a-ha! nature of this post.
118 (vezok): Way to tell him you're just pressuring him.
126 (DJ): The D here is a little stronger than I had expected it to be. Encouraging sign for DJ.
128 (Guardman): What do you think I'm trying to say here? That you were stone-cold obvious scum in that game and probably will be again in this one if you are scum.
130 (poggy): This may be plainsight lurking. No content so far. Definitely one to watch.
135 (DJ): But I wasn't thrilled about this sequence where he states it's time to "move on"...and then heads to poggy. Not productive.
140 (vezok): It's not accurate to say that DJ has "said nothing" about poggy for contentless posting. Starting to really see DJ as a townie now.
143 (ZDS): Soft pokes at Jobie and Eco. Don't see Guardman as town. You sure you're playing for the white hats?
152 (DYH): Overly self-conscious. Possibly a jump-off because he can't make anything stick on DJ; possibly because there is no support. One to watch.
156 (E_P): Resurfaces after some of the pressure has been alleviated to have a go at poggy. This is not productive.
166 (AE): Fair observation, and it ties into both ZDS and vezok's interpretations of Archonoid as someone who's just looking for a wagon. Need wagon; will travel.
173 (Jobie): A pbpa and a good summation of his two classes of posts...but I fail to see where the vote is coming from.
176 (WoD): Nibbling around the edges, again. Scum? Scum.
179 (Archonoid): But this was a poor answer. "Crack" and "minor errors that accumulate" are not analogous. I can't really complain, considering I poorly phrase things often in this game, but there is a disconnect here.
185 (E_P): The problem is that your version of events is less believable than L_P's, and that's largely because of this part: "I then felt it comepletely went south and stated my reasoning plainly and admitting it was wrong." That's the scum part of your behavior. Overly self-conscious and tentative.
197 (DYH): It really wasn't. I usually manage 300 or so posts before being summoned. In fact, when Ged missed the first prod on me, I thought he was acknowledging that and giving me a pass, knowing I would return with bountiful content. Guess not. :|
200 (Ecophagy): I don't know. I'm still not sold. Archonoid has played in a very detached, mechanical fashion, but I don't see that being the province of noob scum. Did we get a summary of his mafia history?
216 (Jobie): Why are you barning? You were already voting him. You did a pbpa. Remember? Oh, now I get it. The explanation for why his posting style is not that of a noob scum is because he's being coached in daytalk. Yeah, I don't buy it and this makes me not want to vote Archonoid anymore.
229 (E_P): Your fixation on AE is really worrisome, and I hate how you and ZDS seem to be backing one another up. Really getting bad vibes here. The tone of your posts to L_P have slightly more emotion than the barn attempt you threw at me in Hecatea, but that can be attributed to the fact that you're on the receiving end of a fairly fierce barrage.
***
unvote; vote E_P.
WoD is probably scum, Guardman is probably town, AE is probably town, DYH could go either way. DJ feels like he has certainly committed scummy actions, but has defended himself as a townie. Archonoid feels like he has defended himself like a scum, but I can't see him being this blase about "recalibrating" and wagon-jumping as scum. Noob scum know wagon-hopping is bad. They do it anyway, but they try not to be overt about it. ZDS scares the daylights out of me. Jobie is also 50-50 at the moment.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
I thought my post was pretty clear...the vote/unvote felt like a scum-wagon start due to the terrible logic and percieved bad camoflage. Then, I stated that it looked like a soft backpedal from there on out with little content from there. I said the logic Arach used was so backwards in the vote that it had to be a scum-flail, or else he was nuts.
Where is there a waffle in here?
And now DYH...whatever. Every damn time I try to do anything in here, I get jumped on, even if someone else has been doing the same thing as well. It's making it impossible for me to try to hunt, because i'm just stuck defending myself. This is no god-#@%! fun.
unvote
Read into it any damn way you want...scum implosion, whatever. I'm having a hard time caring right now.
Wake me up when Vezok actually gets around to answering my questions.
--->DJ
@63: This is a stupid argument that makes no sense from a scum perspective. Especially in a fashion that moves out of RVS. Especially with no support. Especially when it gains me nothing. L_P tried to explain away my reason to expose myself to ridicule early and for no good reason as "AE is a bad player, and this will look bad in retrospect", what's yours?
@75: Are you honestly telling me that there's not a significant number of players that get away with saying they have reasons but don't want to post them? It's pretty obvious that Seppel, Cyan, poggy, vez, Zionite, or even Az would all do something like that with no one paying attention to it. The reason L_P picked up were things I was concerned would blow up my idea, I listed them and then explained why they are not true. Had I been one of many other players it would have just gone under the radar. It's not me being singled out or picked on, it's simply I'm excluded from a group that get away with it.
@92: Wow. You may actually be scum trying to use logic like this. I'm not allowed to scumhunt when under pressure and responding to any point against me? I might believe you had you said #89, but 92? It's the largest wagon in the game at this point and I was the first person posting on it because of this exact post! The entire case starts here - one you are waffling on - and I'm scum for attacking him? What a horrible point. Notice the DJ wagon I didn't join, trying to shift the blame to a poggy pretending the game was no happening around him, or OMGUS. Really, really poor logic from you here, zindy.
@156: "Resurfaces"? "After some pressure was off"? I'm one of the most active people in this game, and L_P is the only one putting pressure on me, the rest just /barned and hadn't moved their votes. That's two instances of very poor logic on your part in a row.
@185: Everything went and has gone exactly how I said it would, so I would say I'm justified in being self-conscious. It's like I said - It was something I saw going wrong, it went wrong, and I abandoned it quickly. That's not a reason I'm lying, that's a reason I'm not lying. L_P is saying I just made up the response after noticing why my vote looked bad after the fact. You are saying I knew the vote was bad and decided to do it anyways despite having a bad plan to get away with it. It doesn't make sense.
@229: My fixation with AE is justified. He managed to not say anything in any of his responses and blamed it onevents that still have not happened. That's a really ☺☺☺☺ty excuse if you are going to blame real life. I'm also pointing out that AE has done zero scum hunting. At all. Not even trying a little. That seems perfectly valid since he's lumped himself on two obvious targets and dodging anyone questioning his behavior. Unless you are claiming he's outstandingly townie for pointing out that DJ is probably not scum, I'm not sure what your point is. What's worse is you're not quoting my post #183 where I blamed AE for switching wagons in a mannor that doesn't make sense when I he never unvoted me.
-----
Yep, you call AE town with no logic whatsoever. The only post you have is the post to poggy that no one but ZDS called scummy, and the post where he's attacking Archonoid for things people already said. It appears you have lumped him intot he town column because of me.
I also notice you point out this:
But when I do the exact same thing you call it scummy.
The entire summary of the game is very poor, and I think you are likely to be scum. You have attacked me for posts that you either made yourself or you support coming from other players, and your logic that I (as scum) made up an elaborate excuse before voting AE the first time instead in response to LP does not mesh at all.
dude, you dont play like me, when i do it it is a null tell when you do it it is different. Because it isnt normal for you. Cmon dont be so silly
Basic 35 (replaced for Reya Cookiebringer)
Basic 37 (ongoing)
Zindabad: I don't like how casually you categorize WoD as "probably scum". I don't see anything about the two posts you quoted that is strongly suspicious, so why do you give him the strongest scum rating of the ones you've listed so far?
Since I screwed up seeing his vote on Arch, I decided I needed a substitute. I decided to pick DYH, since he also is an acronym'ed name (technically).
@Zindabad: I'm very wishy-washy about how I feel about Archonoid. It's one of those "he doesn't look terribly scummy, but something doesn't sit right" reads. That's what's warranting the vote. The fact that I'm wary of noob's posting very well because of the possibility of daytalk coaching is an adjacent comment, but not the reason behind my vote.
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You had a question in that last post? Not stalling. Will go look for it.
Cmon now. Stop trying to smear. The games as a whole is only part of it. Work is another. Don't work on the weekend so I have more time to go over the game.
Thats a good tip. We should start with the prod-ies.
LP is doing fine. I'm following along.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
So it's the "I'm not this bad as scum" defense.
It sounds like you decided to do something that you already knew was a bad idea and could list the points for why it was a bad idea in detail (you had them ready for when you were pulled up on it).
Can you explain why you did it, then? And why you immediately distanced yourself from it as soon as you had been questioned on it by one player?
You try to retcon it to make it look like you're initiating a case or taking part in a wagon, but what you were really doing was trying to deflect attention off yourself by calling out a new player making a phrasing error. You wanted to make it look like you were catching a slip, and your explanation is "well, at least I didn't go after poggy." Nice attempt to discredit, though.
So votes are the only pressure in this game? Everyone except L_P had stopped talking about you. You thought it was safe to come out again.
But - as I said above - neither does your version. Would you say that it was a mistake either way? In that case, can you explain to me how it makes more sense as a town mistake than as a scum mistake? I think the way you have gone about your own defense - as I outlined - is what really shows you to be scum, not the actual incident that provoked L_P's investigation.
I find it more plausible that AE is another soft target that you're trying to latch onto, not with the real intention of ever getting him lynched, but rather as a port in a storm. You're waiting for it all to blow over.
AE hasn't seemed particularly scummy to me. Some of the things he's getting picked up on for are virtually analogous to plays he made in Amistaria, plays that I eventually got him lynched for as town. I also disagree that he's done "zero scumhunting."
I could find more.
The difference is that I wasn't under attack at the time.
Neither does your own logic regarding the same event, and your over-defensiveness, furtive behavior under questioning, and attempts to dismiss your attackers signal that you are scum.
Please identify what other aspects of the summary were "very poor", considering you mentioned nothing but what directly related to you or your interlocutors.
Really sparse, barny posts early on are WoD's scum meta. See Sword of Truth.
So you can't put your finger on what's causing you to vote Archonoid. It's just "something that doesn't sit right." Is that accurate?
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Nope, not seeing it.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
If I know it's a bad idea as scum, why would I think it ever would be worth pursuing on page two of Day 1 with no tangible benefit to me other than this "lobbing onto a soft target" crap? It's not "I'm not that bad" it's that you see me as recognizing why it's bad prior to doing it and still doing it.
As to why I did it, I thought there was a benefit to be had so long as there wasn't immediate backlash that would alleiviate any pressure AE would feel at all. I have also pointed this out three times now: if AE sees a couple votes against him, and then sees a couple of people vouching for him there's no pressure to respond and opens the door to targeting his wagon as scummy (which I since admitted would have been there even if the plan worked).
You are an idiot to press something so wrong.
Ecophagy's case is built on the same post for the same reasons I had. You cannot support what Eco's sayign and condemn what I said - it's simply not an option to pick and choose like that.
Also, I didn't say "at least I didn't go after poggy", I said there were other more immediate pushes that had some backing already versus going after another player with zero suspcion at the time. It doesn't fit with your deflection logic.
LP WAS THE ONLY PERSON TALKING ABOUT ME!
Others voted, but they 100% barned what he had said with no additional comments or adding anything else to respond to. If anyone had anything they wanted me to respond to I certainly was posting, so they could have pointed to what I missed.
So I'm not scum for lying, I'm scum for telling the truth. I'm scum for recognizing what could go wrong before acting, but acting on it despite risks? I'm scum for recognizing that my fears have been realized and immediately dropping what I was going for?
The reason scum would not make this mistake in your version is because I recognize how bad it might look and would not risk it. The reason scum would not make this mistake in LP's version is that every point I brought up was 100% truthful, and therefore not completely made up after I placed a bad vote.
I'm waiting for what to blow over? I'm posting constantly and responding to everything. That's the opposite of waiting it out.
AE is scummy to me because even in the posts you highlight he is saying are repeating what people have already said or completely barning what they have said against players. Even including the poggy stuff, he has completely killed it.
Should I wait for DYH to weigh in on this?
My own logic is perfectly in line with what I am saying. LP just doesn't believe I recognized that logic beforhand, and you think only scum would take what they recognize as a risk.
My over-defensiveness? That's new. I'm scum for responding to LP and now you. Thanks for that.
My dismissal of attackers? I'm addressing everything people have said, despite your attacks being very bad - to which I say why they're bad. I only stopped some of the back and forth with LP because the quote war is unneeded and unproductive.
Why would I have to stray further than that to prove you wrong. You're using the same logic as me for poggy, but I'm scum and you're not. You're waffling on Eco's logic against Archonoid, but I'm scum for spotting similair problems. And you attack on me makes no sense from the perspective that I'm telling the truth about recognizing the potential problems with voting for AE like I did. You call AE town for no reason, and still cannot back it up other than "he's not scummy" (absence of scummy posts is not indicitive of a townie). Those are plenty of reasons to say the majority of your PBPA is poor since they are most of what you said.
Then I'm taking it as you agree with what I said. In fact, your response to ZDS seems to prove that as well.
You are rolling over to LP and zindabad saying I targeted you because you're an easy target. I cannot imagine anyone would read not one but two exchanges like that and let them carry the charge.
On top of that, the exchange between LP and myself is at a complete halt with it not gathering enough votes to get me lynched. That's a stalled wagont hat requires people that agree with it to push it forward (like zindabad is attempting).
What question am I ignoring
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Seriously, are you starting to flail?
Your attacking me now because LP and Zind are attacking you and I'm not saying anything? That sounds like an attempt to get ZDS in here to jump on and attack me on the subject to relieve the attention on you.
Zindabad is pushing the stalled wagon forward. OK.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Flailing? I've been very consistant with my approach to everything this game. Everything. I'm getting ☺☺☺☺ted on for wanting a better read on you, and now you're claiming I'm flailing for continuing to call you out for doing nothing when it doesn't make sense for you to simply do nothing.
I've been attacking you for doing nothing for pages now, and your response is to say I don't need to do anything because LP and zindabad will do it for me?
I'm attempting to get ZDS to come on thread and attack you for... the subject I am attacking you for as a defence for me?
Zindabad pushing a stalled wagon? Then you don't think LP is doing a good enough job but still do nothing?
I'm willing to /barn ZDS and E_P here.
Vote: Archmage Eternal
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Your trying to turn the attention onto me now that LP and Zindabad are attacking you. Attacking me because I haven't added to what they have said. Plus to say I have done nothing this game is an absolute lie. A total smear.
Again, misleading.
Could have been a bit overzealous here. The way you have been following his lead you could have been reaching out.
I said LP is doing fine didn't I? You said your wagon is stalled because no one agrees to further push it. You were wrong, Zindabad has pushed it.
Jobie these are just some of the votes your throwing around. Your being the poster child of opportunistic. You weren't buying my wagon but now your barning again. What you are is willing to jump on any wagon going.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I originally wasn't buying it because you were reading townie. This last exchange between you and E_P flipped a switch for me, you're being a little too frantic.
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1. The way you responded. It seemed to me like you were just trying to have eco go away.
2. I wasn't so sure of myself. And even if I don't remember exactly I probably forgot. I had an incredibly busy week with exams parties and stuff like that.
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These are the posts that Emo has directed at me early on. He has not attacked me. He has followed your lead twice in voting me. What he is doing now is trying to deflect on to me for the fact that LP has been attacking him and now Zindabad has started attacking him and I haven't added to the case.
Please define frantic. Point it out.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I'm not going to go post by post and point it out, but once your points are shot down, you quickly move to a different approach. Frantic isn't the perfect word for it. Anxious almost fits better. There's a better word than both of those, but I can't come up with it.
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(5) Emo_Pinata - Archmage Eternal, Archonoid, Lost_Profit, Wrath_of_DoG, zindabad
(2) Archmage Eternal - Emo_Pinata, Jobie
(2) DJ Catchem - RisingPhoenix, vezokpiraka
(2) Archonoid - Arcadic, Ecophagy
(1) Guardman - ZeDorkSlipeur
(1) zindabad - DYH
Not Voting: DJ Catchem, Guardman, poggydude
With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch.
Wrath_of_DoG has been prodded.
It's a long weekend, and I've been super busy, I'll try to get content up today or tomorrow.
Good one. Twisting it to your liking. Thats what your vote was for. His vote was for me unvoting him and voting Archonoid. Which never happened. Heres the quote.
Hes not accusing me of following LP he clairly said I wasn't reading those posts.
So ZDS you seem to be twisting things a bit here.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Right, whats not to understand? Hes trying to use my reasoning against me. But I didn't waver and unvote him.
Did I say "his attack on me was faulty"? He voted for me under false pretenses. I don't consider that much of an attack, a quick "vote AE your reason doesn't mess" post.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I've played with poggy as town and I've never seen him act like this. As town I find he is usually more of a Seppel/Tilde mix with a bit of Vezo thrown in for good measure. But this I just don't know what to make of this play.
1. He jumps onto the AE wagon with no comment, just a vote.
2. When asked why he did it he then claims AE claimed scum and then avoided answering questions about it until he admitted he still thought we were in the random stage, half-way, still. Which really doesn't make sense when you think about it.
3.
Unvotes here. Explains his reasoning for his unvoting of AE (after the repeated questioning of why he voted) as the serious business/overreacting stuff wasn't enough for a vote, but when he voted that was really the only thing against AE, which is a contradiction of his actions.
4.
Poggy pretty much admits to making up his last post and the excuse of being "half-way" in the rvs.
5.
Really sounds like "Is there a good wagon I can jump on?".
I think by all this it is pretty obvious that Poggy is scum.
Vote Poggydude
Well that's horribly embarrassing. Let's try this again:
Votecount
(5) Emo_Pinata - Archmage Eternal, Archonoid, Lost_Profit, Wrath_of_DoG, zindabad
(3) Archmage Eternal - Emo_Pinata, Jobie, ZeDorkSlipeur
(2) DJ Catchem - RisingPhoenix, vezokpiraka
(2) Archonoid - Arcadic, Ecophagy
(1) zindabad - DYH
(1) poggydude - Guardman
Not Voting: DJ Catchem, poggydude
With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch.