Just realized didn't officially vote against the move Vote No. We really should spend at least one night here just because of the whole fact that eventually we might want to come back here, so why not do what we can here now rather than needing to come back later.
About claiming corruption its probably something we should keep to ourselves as we don't want players making themselves easy kills at night should mafia be able to manipulate corruption on more than one player each night.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally commissioned through High~Light Studios
I doubt the antechamber features as many relics and such as some of you think. Not only is the fundamental rule of dungeons that the better stuff is deeper in, the sheer name "antechamber" compared to "condemned halls" and the ability for the group to move further in immediately makes me think there's simply nothing worth staying for.
Mind you, location does not effect my role whatsoever - so I'm refraining from contributing a vote here.
Looks like there will be some people who want to move to a specific zone for role-related reasons, and then others who will want the relics more than others. At this point it's impossible to tell whether maximizing the relics we survey or fulfilling people's role-related zone requirements is going to be more valuable. At the very least we would need to first have some idea how many relics are in each zone, as well as some claims to have occurred. I'm against the currently ongoing vomit of information into the thread about people's role-related objectives because it will help the scum identify vanillas and I don't see any good reason it helps us.
What's with the new trend of worrying about scum identifying vanillas?
It will narrow down who is possibly power roles for one.
Since the RVS is over (wow that was a quick one) I'll Unvote. Also as for the location change. I think we can move on without any issue. Vote Yes Its been pointed out that classic dungeon layout means better relics further in.
I doubt the antechamber features as many relics and such as some of you think. Not only is the fundamental rule of dungeons that the better stuff is deeper in, the sheer name "antechamber" compared to "condemned halls" and the ability for the group to move further in immediately makes me think there's simply nothing worth staying for.
I agree there will be less where we currently are, but I doubt there will be *none*. I would expect there's enough for 1 night, at least.
What's with the new trend of worrying about scum identifying vanillas?
Process of elimination as to where power roles are. Not as huge an issue in a specialty type game, as there usually aren't any vanillas, but in normal games the scum can go cop hunting rather quickly with a few vanilla claims.
I doubt the antechamber features as many relics and such as some of you think. Not only is the fundamental rule of dungeons that the better stuff is deeper in, the sheer name "antechamber" compared to "condemned halls" and the ability for the group to move further in immediately makes me think there's simply nothing worth staying for.
Mind you, location does not effect my role whatsoever - so I'm refraining from contributing a vote here.
sorry, but i dont vote without true conviction, never have never will. AI is in no way confirmed scum for me, but the way things are going he may be soon enough.
You sounded pretty convinced the second time dude.
EBWODP: I dislike all the modgaming going on here. By that logic sure there's usually more treasure the deeper into the dungeon you go, but there's also more danger as well. I really don't like everyone assuming we're better off deeper in, regardless of any flavor-gaming.
how come i dont know what OMGUS means? "oh my god you suck" was exactly what you meant after i mentioned your strange post to JD, its all right there for everyone to read, you even voted on me to boot, plus you know very well what OMGUS means and you know you did it.
OMGUS, even if legitimate, is a reliable tell for 1, maybe 2 players. In all other circumstances it is a natural inclination to dislike the person attacking you.
sorry, but i dont vote without true conviction, never have never will. AI is in no way confirmed scum for me, but the way things are going he may be soon enough.
I don't really buy this reason. I don't believe I've ever heard town say this and mean it; it's almost always scum trying to look as if they are not caving in to pressure to vote.
Just realized didn't officially vote against the move Vote No. We really should spend at least one night here just because of the whole fact that eventually we might want to come back here, so why not do what we can here now rather than needing to come back later.
What would it hurt us to come back later? Presumably the relics won't disappear, so there is no real need to stay here over going to another zone and coming back later.
What would it hurt us to come back later? Presumably the relics won't disappear, so there is no real need to stay here over going to another zone and coming back later.
Given that we have to spend at least 1 day and night in each zone while moving, it would be most efficient to visit each location only once. Otherwise the way back could have nights in locations that have no more relics anymore.
EBWODP: I dislike all the modgaming going on here. By that logic sure there's usually more treasure the deeper into the dungeon you go, but there's also more danger as well. I really don't like everyone assuming we're better off deeper in, regardless of any flavor-gaming.
How is everyone assuming that we are better off deeper in, the majority of people currently voting dont want to move.
Given that we have to spend at least 1 day and night in each zone while moving, it would be most efficient to visit each location only once. Otherwise the way back could have nights in locations that have no more relics anymore.
Agreed on the most efficient way to get relics.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
I don't really buy this reason. I don't believe I've ever heard town say this and mean it; it's almost always scum trying to look as if they are not caving in to pressure to vote.
vote: DRey
I concur.
Vote: Dr. Dre
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Process of elimination as to where power roles are. Not as huge an issue in a specialty type game, as there usually aren't any vanillas, but in normal games the scum can go cop hunting rather quickly with a few vanilla claims.
I would argue there's a better chance the cop, doc, etc. reveals themselves before a PoE is reliable enough for scum. Scum typically want to nail threats, and good analysis is really the greatest threat.
With 23 players, lasting into the final chamber then surveying then using (assumedly) the best items means the 8th night would be the first time you could put them to use.
It just seems like it makes the most sense to move forward.
EBWODP: I dislike all the modgaming going on here. By that logic sure there's usually more treasure the deeper into the dungeon you go, but there's also more danger as well. I really don't like everyone assuming we're better off deeper in, regardless of any flavor-gaming.
"better off in the deepest level" and "there's nothing worth waiting around for" are two different things. We can obviously asses danger level from what experience in the other rooms.
I have it on good authority that the Phyrexians are going to win. However, Venser is then going to teleport the whole of New Phyrexia inside the Zendikar Hedrons, leaving the Phyrexians and Eldrazi trapped in an eternal struggle of the mechanics that nobody likes.
The next set will feature both infect and annihilator, and be called Maro'sWetDreamia. It will also feature a new Jace, to ensure that it sells well.
I would argue there's a better chance the cop, doc, etc. reveals themselves before a PoE is reliable enough for scum. Scum typically want to nail threats, and good analysis is really the greatest threat.
I'm saying it's probably not just quantity, but quality. Look at the big picture:
With 23 players, lasting into the final chamber then surveying then using (assumedly) the best items means the 8th night would be the first time you could put them to use.
It just seems like it makes the most sense to move forward.
"better off in the deepest level" and "there's nothing worth waiting around for" are two different things. We can obviously asses danger level from what experience in the other rooms.
Ok first of all if we don't move today we will be able to move to the condemmed halls tomorrow, and survey it on night 2 because we would have spent a full day-night cycle in the antechamber so we only lose a day.
By that logic, it is better to stay tonight as we get to search an extra zone for only a day rather than the forced 2 day wait.
I'm not sure the travel works the way you have it pegged though, I assumed we could move at the end of everyday, because we would have spent a whole night and a whole day in the new location.
@mod: Can you clarify the movement rules
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
I'm not sure the travel works the way you have it pegged though, I assumed we could move at the end of everyday, because we would have spent a whole night and a whole day in the new location.
I'm pretty sure this is how it works. My interpretation is that the limitation of spending a full day/night cycle is to prevent moving multiple times a day.
OMGUS, even if legitimate, is a reliable tell for 1, maybe 2 players. In all other circumstances it is a natural inclination to dislike the person attacking you.
How convinced do you actually expect people to be less than 2 pages into the game?
Moving every day is possible. Spending a full day-night cycle in each zone (except on D1) is the requirement, so the following sequence of moves would be OK:
D1 - Move from Antechambers to CH
N1 - In CH
D2 - Move from CH to KA
N2 - In KA
D3 - Move from KA to ST
And so on. Remember that moves occur at dusk (when the lynch scene is posted).
We go tonight to the chambers and people survey there.
Also one of the towniest people at the end of the day should send his actions right at the end of the night and take 3 relics. If he does that we know when we run out of relics and don't have to spend a night surveying an empty room.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
We go tonight to the chambers and people survey there.
Also one of the towniest people at the end of the day should send his actions right at the end of the night and take 3 relics. If he does that we know when we run out of relics and don't have to spend a night surveying an empty room.
Nah, we'll just have anyone say that they didn't get as many relics as they surveyed for. Scum presumably need relics too, so why would they lie about that?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
Not a fan of this vote. No real reason except "/barn" for jumping on a pretty quickly moving wagon. Seems opportunistic.
vote Kraj
I was going to respond with "Two votes a 'quickly moving wagon'?" but I see mine is actually the 4th. Sweet. There should be more.
There's a hella-lot of assumptions made so far in this thread, by the way: mafia need relics, relics are more likely to be found in deeper locations, there's vanillas, favor is a cost to the mafia, townies reduce corruption, and so on. There are basically three ways we can handle all the wacky mechanics:
1. Stick with the standard secrecy about everything until players get run up to a claim, and basically make decisions are moving and surveying completely blind. The benefit here is mafia get no clues as to where power role lie, the drawback is that mafia by definition know a lot more about getting the most out of these mechanics than we do and have the opportunity to secretly push us in the wrong direction.
2. Cut the mechanics out of the equation. Presumably roles that care about location and relics will be under-utilized and weak if we never move out of the antechamber. The same will be true for the mafia and it neutralizes a great deal of wackiness and opportunity for manipulation; it puts the game closer to an even playing field like a basic mafia game and gives us less distractions.
3. Mass claim. Yes, give the scum a road map to night kills but also give the town full information with which to make the most of abilities, and put the scum in the difficult position of either lying or being held accountable for their actions. The biggest risk here is if the mod gave the mafia a strong set of disruption abilities and/or abilities that are safe to claim.
I say #3. In my experience, even very good game designers don't give enough thought to what the mafia will be able to get away with claiming under a mass claim. Further, in my experience mods who design shared resource systems like points, items, or in this case relics, anticipate during their process that the town will coordinate the usage to their benefit. And it usually turns out that they don't because of mistrust and fear of mafia manipulation, which always goes badly for them. If you don't believe me, go read games that use these systems like Harry Potter, Points, and Inheritance. Then read the mod's comments after the game.
We should mass claim and manage our resources as best we can. I'll be happy to go first if we agree.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
1. Stick with the standard secrecy about everything until players get run up to a claim, and basically make decisions are moving and surveying completely blind. The benefit here is mafia get no clues as to where power role lie, the drawback is that mafia by definition know a lot more about getting the most out of these mechanics than we do and have the opportunity to secretly push us in the wrong direction.
I like this one, and disagree with your ending conclusion. With respect to game mechanics, the mafia and the town might not be at odds in their goals.
2. Cut the mechanics out of the equation. Presumably roles that care about location and relics will be under-utilized and weak if we never move out of the antechamber. The same will be true for the mafia and it neutralizes a great deal of wackiness and opportunity for manipulation; it puts the game closer to an even playing field like a basic mafia game and gives us less distractions.
If you want a basic mafia game, go play a basic mafia game.
3. Mass claim. Yes, give the scum a road map to night kills but also give the town full information with which to make the most of abilities, and put the scum in the difficult position of either lying or being held accountable for their actions. The biggest risk here is if the mod gave the mafia a strong set of disruption abilities and/or abilities that are safe to claim.
I say #3. In my experience, even very good game designers don't give enough thought to what the mafia will be able to get away with claiming under a mass claim. Further, in my experience mods who design shared resource systems like points, items, or in this case relics, anticipate during their process that the town will coordinate the usage to their benefit. And it usually turns out that they don't because of mistrust and fear of mafia manipulation, which always goes badly for them. If you don't believe me, go read games that use these systems like Harry Potter, Points, and Inheritance. Then read the mod's comments after the game.
Dislike. Massclaims will fix nothing in terms of distrust for fear of mafia manipulation, and in general will make it easier. Note the plan in Arithmetic: after massclaim the scum immediately knew there was only one points cop, and after killing him could mess with point totals at will, if they wanted. They ended up not doing so also because of the mass claim, because they realized there were next to no threatening roles in the game.
A mass claim eliminates potential. There *could* be a relic number cop in the game, and until confirmed mafia have to be careful with what they're surveying for. There *could* be one or more protective roles in the game, and until confirmed the mafia have to be careful with their kills. On the other hand, few to none of the mafia are going to claim accurately. So we trade all our potential by revealing our capabilities exactly for... a chance a couple scum mess up their flavor when claiming.
zindabad implied during signups that the town would have to work together in this game or lose. However, I'm still worried that the scum would be able to take advantage of a situation where everything is public due to the Corruption mechanic.
As such, I tentatively support a mass claim, with the possible caveat that we keep our Corruption levels to ourselves unless we see a pressing reason to reveal it.
zindabad implied during signups that the town would have to work together in this game or lose. However, I'm still worried that the scum would be able to take advantage of a situation where everything is public due to the Corruption mechanic.
As such, I tentatively support a mass claim, with the possible caveat that we keep our Corruption levels to ourselves unless we see a pressing reason to reveal it.
Working together and mass claiming are two separate things.
Responding to LP: Arithmetic was a mini and had a mechanic that could have worked even if everyone was vanilla. Of course the town power wasn't that big. This on the other hand is a large and we all have our roles.
Also I doubt the fact that there are vanillas in this game. I think everyone can at least survey.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy. Check out the Shop Thread
Working together and mass claiming are two separate things.
I understand that. It's a lot harder to work together effectively when people aren't completely open with their information.
Responding to your last post, there is a lot more benefit to mass-claiming than just catching scum in a flavor misstep. Scum would be accountable for all of their actions, and anything that doesn't add up will be scrutinized by the town. Also, it's heavily hinted that there is a tracker and/or watcher among the town (even if he/they can't see the NK). Toss in a cop and doc and the scum could be in a really awkward spot.
At the very least, I think Surveying should be completely public. I'd be OK with keeping other aspects of roles secret for now.
Responding to your last post, there is a lot more benefit to mass-claiming than just catching scum in a flavor misstep. Scum would be accountable for all of their actions, and anything that doesn't add up will be scrutinized by the town. Also, it's heavily hinted that there is a tracker and/or watcher among the town (even if he/they can't see the NK). Toss in a cop and doc and the scum could be in a really awkward spot.
All 4 of those roles are better off hidden. Having those roles is important. Actually confirming their existence is not so much. And if those roles aren't there, it is better to remain silent and pretend they are.
At the very least, I think Surveying should be completely public. I'd be OK with keeping other aspects of roles secret for now.
i too agree with a mass claim (with a twist). because of zindabad's mention of heavy cooperation needed for the win and for the reasons everyone already mentioned.
my twist is that any cop, and doctor DOES NOT MENTION their abilities, just the ones that doesnt implicate on being doctor or cop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
All 4 of those roles are better off hidden. Having those roles is important. Actually confirming their existence is not so much. And if those roles aren't there, it is better to remain silent and pretend they are.
I'm fine with this.
Agreed.
A massclaim is a really really bad idea.
Vote: Kraj
While I understand what you're saying about HP and Points and whatnot, I'm getting a vibe that you're trying to use your experience to manhandle the town into a massclaim. Hell, you even have some pretty good reasons. But you hardly mention the downsides at all, and you're definitely experienced enough to know very well what they all are. I also really don't like how you try to mod-game as a reason for a mass-claim. With the amount of work that zind has put into this game (look at the oodles of flavor text), I find it hard to believe he didn't put quite a bit of thought into mafia claims. I've only played in one game before that was this complicated with fancy stuff like items and whatnot, and I was scum there. And given a fakeclaim that was very fitting and would have won me the game if it weren't for a misplay on the part of my partner. I'm getting the feeling that Kraj is mafia and was provided a good enough fakeclaim (or the tools to create one) that he wants to test it on us.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
Also one of the towniest people at the end of the day should send his actions right at the end of the night and take 3 relics. If he does that we know when we run out of relics and don't have to spend a night surveying an empty room.
Except that all of the people that survey for 1 and 2 relics would get theirs first. Or that is how I thought that the rules read, anyway.
@DKD: Drey's post to AI that most people are ruffled about reads as misguided townie to me.
I think that this game may be one of those times when a mass-claim is the correct course of action for the town. Not because it will break the game open or anything like that, but because Zindabad seems to want to make a point out of the town getting ahead through cooperation.
i too agree with a mass claim (with a twist). because of zindabad's mention of heavy cooperation needed for the win and for the reasons everyone already mentioned.
my twist is that any cop, and doctor DOES NOT MENTION their abilities, just the ones that doesnt implicate on being doctor or cop.
You don't massclaim halfway. If you're opening the door for some players to say "oops, that wasn't my entire role, there's more" then the scum will easily take advantage of it. There needs to be no leeway given.
While I understand what you're saying about HP and Points and whatnot, I'm getting a vibe that you're trying to use your experience to manhandle the town into a massclaim. Hell, you even have some pretty good reasons. But you hardly mention the downsides at all, and you're definitely experienced enough to know very well what they all are. I also really don't like how you try to mod-game as a reason for a mass-claim. With the amount of work that zind has put into this game (look at the oodles of flavor text), I find it hard to believe he didn't put quite a bit of thought into mafia claims. I've only played in one game before that was this complicated with fancy stuff like items and whatnot, and I was scum there. And given a fakeclaim that was very fitting and would have won me the game if it weren't for a misplay on the part of my partner. I'm getting the feeling that Kraj is mafia and was provided a good enough fakeclaim (or the tools to create one) that he wants to test it on us.
not.
at the end king arthur mafia, the mods/veterans showed surprise at the possibility that scum receive fakeclaims on a daily basis, apparently is hightly unlikely for the mods of salvation to give those and you are a mod, you should know better...
im liking more and more the possibility of a mass claim, looking like scum is very afraid of it, considering the complexity of my own role i believe it will be VERY hard for scum to create believable claims.
You don't massclaim halfway. If you're opening the door for some players to say "oops, that wasn't my entire role, there's more" then the scum will easily take advantage of it. There needs to be no leeway given.
not really, just the protect and investigative abilities are excused from claim everything else is mandatory, if you lie, you die.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
im liking more and more the possibility of a mass claim, looking like scum is very afraid of it, considering the complexity of my own role i believe it will be VERY hard for scum to create believable claims.
Where are you getting this from?
not really, just the protect and investigative abilities are excused from claim everything else is mandatory, if you lie, you die.
Protective and investigative abilities cover quite a large range. You're opening the door to letting people amend their claims later for no reason. Secondly, the cops/docs will simply be the people who didn't claim anything else. It's not even like you're hiding them that well.
not really, just the protect and investigative abilities are excused from claim everything else is mandatory, if you lie, you die.
Selective claimin' makes the PRs evident thrugh their silence. If a bunch o dwarves all step up and reveal thar roles and a small bunch stays quiet in th' corner, the scum will know who they should be a targetin' first.
Protective and investigative abilities cover quite a large range. You're opening the door to letting people amend their claims later for no reason. Secondly, the cops/docs will simply be the people who didn't claim anything else. It's not even like you're hiding them that well.
not for any reason. just for those reasons, if one amend their claim for another reason, we lynch.
considering my role i dont believe we have french vanilla cops or docs, and even if we have... mafia is not a game we can play without taking risks.
theres more, zindabad said the scum gets stronger as corruption grows, knowing the abilities of each one early (and using them optimally) it gets easier to control corruption imho.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Selective claimin' makes the PRs evident thrugh their silence. If a bunch o dwarves all step up and reveal thar roles and a small bunch stays quiet in th' corner, the scum will know who they should be a targetin' first.
do know what is a french vanilla?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
zajnet post/vote to kraj. one should not be voted for giving good ideas.
But clearly Zajnet thinks its a bad idea.
not for any reason. just for those reasons, if one amend their claim for another reason, we lynch.
The point of a massclaim is that no one can renege on their claim later. But you want to let people, so long as they can pretend to have some sort of protective or investigative role. It is not good precedent.
considering my role i dont believe we have french vanilla cops or docs, and even if we have... mafia is not a game we can play without taking risks.
You're arguing for trying to play it safe. "Risk" would be doing a massclaim.
About claiming corruption its probably something we should keep to ourselves as we don't want players making themselves easy kills at night should mafia be able to manipulate corruption on more than one player each night.
Mind you, location does not effect my role whatsoever - so I'm refraining from contributing a vote here.
It will narrow down who is possibly power roles for one.
Since the RVS is over (wow that was a quick one) I'll Unvote. Also as for the location change. I think we can move on without any issue. Vote Yes Its been pointed out that classic dungeon layout means better relics further in.
The Family
I agree there will be less where we currently are, but I doubt there will be *none*. I would expect there's enough for 1 night, at least.
Process of elimination as to where power roles are. Not as huge an issue in a specialty type game, as there usually aren't any vanillas, but in normal games the scum can go cop hunting rather quickly with a few vanilla claims.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
No offense taken, I am a mafia newbie. Fair enough point.
Regarding the corruption claims, I think it would be good to claim as you hit corruption levels. A townie will have the ability to reduce corruption.
Also as the RVS is over, unvote
Barning this. vote: yes
T2: GGElfdraziGG
Extended: GGElves!GG
EDH: BBMarrow-GnawerBB + RGRosheen MeandererRG + UUMemnarchUU
You sounded pretty convinced the second time dude.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
How convinced do you actually expect people to be less than 2 pages into the game?
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
I don't really buy this reason. I don't believe I've ever heard town say this and mean it; it's almost always scum trying to look as if they are not caving in to pressure to vote.
vote: DRey
What would it hurt us to come back later? Presumably the relics won't disappear, so there is no real need to stay here over going to another zone and coming back later.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
How is everyone assuming that we are better off deeper in, the majority of people currently voting dont want to move.
Agreed on the most efficient way to get relics.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
I concur.
Vote: Dr. Dre
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I'm saying it's probably not just quantity, but quality. Look at the big picture:
Staying Put:
Antechamber - N1
Condemned Halls - N3
Khardros's Anvil - N5
Scarred Terrace - N7
Lifebinder's Cell - N9
Moving Forward:
Antechamber - N/A
Condemned Halls - N1
Khardros's Anvil - N3
Scarred Terrace - N5
Lifebinder's Cell - N7
With 23 players, lasting into the final chamber then surveying then using (assumedly) the best items means the 8th night would be the first time you could put them to use.
It just seems like it makes the most sense to move forward.
"better off in the deepest level" and "there's nothing worth waiting around for" are two different things. We can obviously asses danger level from what experience in the other rooms.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Ok first of all if we don't move today we will be able to move to the condemmed halls tomorrow, and survey it on night 2 because we would have spent a full day-night cycle in the antechamber so we only lose a day.
By that logic, it is better to stay tonight as we get to search an extra zone for only a day rather than the forced 2 day wait.
I'm not sure the travel works the way you have it pegged though, I assumed we could move at the end of everyday, because we would have spent a whole night and a whole day in the new location.
@mod: Can you clarify the movement rules
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Not very, hence why I am suspicious.
I wasn't trying to imply that everyone (in this game) had that opinion, I was rather commenting on everyone (that did).
Any particular reason why?
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
D1 - Move from Antechambers to CH
N1 - In CH
D2 - Move from CH to KA
N2 - In KA
D3 - Move from KA to ST
And so on. Remember that moves occur at dusk (when the lynch scene is posted).
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Not a fan of this vote. No real reason except "/barn" for jumping on a pretty quickly moving wagon. Seems opportunistic.
vote Kraj
T2: GGElfdraziGG
Extended: GGElves!GG
EDH: BBMarrow-GnawerBB + RGRosheen MeandererRG + UUMemnarchUU
We go tonight to the chambers and people survey there.
Also one of the towniest people at the end of the day should send his actions right at the end of the night and take 3 relics. If he does that we know when we run out of relics and don't have to spend a night surveying an empty room.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Nah, we'll just have anyone say that they didn't get as many relics as they surveyed for. Scum presumably need relics too, so why would they lie about that?
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
I was going to respond with "Two votes a 'quickly moving wagon'?" but I see mine is actually the 4th. Sweet. There should be more.
There's a hella-lot of assumptions made so far in this thread, by the way: mafia need relics, relics are more likely to be found in deeper locations, there's vanillas, favor is a cost to the mafia, townies reduce corruption, and so on. There are basically three ways we can handle all the wacky mechanics:
1. Stick with the standard secrecy about everything until players get run up to a claim, and basically make decisions are moving and surveying completely blind. The benefit here is mafia get no clues as to where power role lie, the drawback is that mafia by definition know a lot more about getting the most out of these mechanics than we do and have the opportunity to secretly push us in the wrong direction.
2. Cut the mechanics out of the equation. Presumably roles that care about location and relics will be under-utilized and weak if we never move out of the antechamber. The same will be true for the mafia and it neutralizes a great deal of wackiness and opportunity for manipulation; it puts the game closer to an even playing field like a basic mafia game and gives us less distractions.
3. Mass claim. Yes, give the scum a road map to night kills but also give the town full information with which to make the most of abilities, and put the scum in the difficult position of either lying or being held accountable for their actions. The biggest risk here is if the mod gave the mafia a strong set of disruption abilities and/or abilities that are safe to claim.
I say #3. In my experience, even very good game designers don't give enough thought to what the mafia will be able to get away with claiming under a mass claim. Further, in my experience mods who design shared resource systems like points, items, or in this case relics, anticipate during their process that the town will coordinate the usage to their benefit. And it usually turns out that they don't because of mistrust and fear of mafia manipulation, which always goes badly for them. If you don't believe me, go read games that use these systems like Harry Potter, Points, and Inheritance. Then read the mod's comments after the game.
We should mass claim and manage our resources as best we can. I'll be happy to go first if we agree.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
If you want a basic mafia game, go play a basic mafia game.
Dislike. Massclaims will fix nothing in terms of distrust for fear of mafia manipulation, and in general will make it easier. Note the plan in Arithmetic: after massclaim the scum immediately knew there was only one points cop, and after killing him could mess with point totals at will, if they wanted. They ended up not doing so also because of the mass claim, because they realized there were next to no threatening roles in the game.
A mass claim eliminates potential. There *could* be a relic number cop in the game, and until confirmed mafia have to be careful with what they're surveying for. There *could* be one or more protective roles in the game, and until confirmed the mafia have to be careful with their kills. On the other hand, few to none of the mafia are going to claim accurately. So we trade all our potential by revealing our capabilities exactly for... a chance a couple scum mess up their flavor when claiming.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
As such, I tentatively support a mass claim, with the possible caveat that we keep our Corruption levels to ourselves unless we see a pressing reason to reveal it.
Mass claiming is a good idea. Scums can't kill all of us at the same time.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Also I doubt the fact that there are vanillas in this game. I think everyone can at least survey.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
I understand that. It's a lot harder to work together effectively when people aren't completely open with their information.
Responding to your last post, there is a lot more benefit to mass-claiming than just catching scum in a flavor misstep. Scum would be accountable for all of their actions, and anything that doesn't add up will be scrutinized by the town. Also, it's heavily hinted that there is a tracker and/or watcher among the town (even if he/they can't see the NK). Toss in a cop and doc and the scum could be in a really awkward spot.
At the very least, I think Surveying should be completely public. I'd be OK with keeping other aspects of roles secret for now.
I'm fine with this.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
my twist is that any cop, and doctor DOES NOT MENTION their abilities, just the ones that doesnt implicate on being doctor or cop.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Agreed.
A massclaim is a really really bad idea.
Vote: Kraj
While I understand what you're saying about HP and Points and whatnot, I'm getting a vibe that you're trying to use your experience to manhandle the town into a massclaim. Hell, you even have some pretty good reasons. But you hardly mention the downsides at all, and you're definitely experienced enough to know very well what they all are. I also really don't like how you try to mod-game as a reason for a mass-claim. With the amount of work that zind has put into this game (look at the oodles of flavor text), I find it hard to believe he didn't put quite a bit of thought into mafia claims. I've only played in one game before that was this complicated with fancy stuff like items and whatnot, and I was scum there. And given a fakeclaim that was very fitting and would have won me the game if it weren't for a misplay on the part of my partner. I'm getting the feeling that Kraj is mafia and was provided a good enough fakeclaim (or the tools to create one) that he wants to test it on us.
EDH:
:symb::symb: Marrow-Gnawer :symb::symb: - :symw::symu: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV :symw::symu: - :symb::symb: Toshiro Umezawa :symb::symb: - :symg::symg: Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro :symg::symg:
High Mage of Arcane Babblings of [The Izzet]
MafiaScum Wiki Page
I like mass claims as a general rule in games with so many mechanics.
Except that all of the people that survey for 1 and 2 relics would get theirs first. Or that is how I thought that the rules read, anyway.
@DKD: Drey's post to AI that most people are ruffled about reads as misguided townie to me.
I think that this game may be one of those times when a mass-claim is the correct course of action for the town. Not because it will break the game open or anything like that, but because Zindabad seems to want to make a point out of the town getting ahead through cooperation.
Disagreed with this side too. A massclaim is not a bad idea, I just don't think it is nearly the optimal play.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
not.
at the end king arthur mafia, the mods/veterans showed surprise at the possibility that scum receive fakeclaims on a daily basis, apparently is hightly unlikely for the mods of salvation to give those and you are a mod, you should know better...
im liking more and more the possibility of a mass claim, looking like scum is very afraid of it, considering the complexity of my own role i believe it will be VERY hard for scum to create believable claims.
not really, just the protect and investigative abilities are excused from claim everything else is mandatory, if you lie, you die.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Protective and investigative abilities cover quite a large range. You're opening the door to letting people amend their claims later for no reason. Secondly, the cops/docs will simply be the people who didn't claim anything else. It's not even like you're hiding them that well.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]
Selective claimin' makes the PRs evident thrugh their silence. If a bunch o dwarves all step up and reveal thar roles and a small bunch stays quiet in th' corner, the scum will know who they should be a targetin' first.
Ah think so too, otherwise a vanilla wuld have nary an incentive to travel anywhere if they culdn't do anythin' at night.
zajnet post/vote to kraj. one should not be voted for giving good ideas.
not for any reason. just for those reasons, if one amend their claim for another reason, we lynch.
considering my role i dont believe we have french vanilla cops or docs, and even if we have... mafia is not a game we can play without taking risks.
theres more, zindabad said the scum gets stronger as corruption grows, knowing the abilities of each one early (and using them optimally) it gets easier to control corruption imho.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
do know what is a french vanilla?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Also IIRC Zinda dislikes cops. He thinks they are too bastard and powerful. So there isn't such a big chance to have a cop.
Also someone said their role is also complicated. That means we probably don't have just a cop or just a doc.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
The point of a massclaim is that no one can renege on their claim later. But you want to let people, so long as they can pretend to have some sort of protective or investigative role. It is not good precedent.
You're arguing for trying to play it safe. "Risk" would be doing a massclaim.
There are mafia night kills. Read the rules.
Updated: 05/24/11
[The Family]