I don't see where the problem is. It's not like someone didn't get a role. They were just rerolled. Do you think if he had a different role he would've won faster?
I still think the mafia would've won.
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How you would have played is completely irrelevant, what mattered was how well you were playing compared with the rest of the town.
The only way you could have survived past N2 as the SK (or as any non-mafia role) is if your play had been more hectic, more spammy, more wall-of-texty, and overall worse than the town's average level. And even then, seeing Kpaca spam a game with walls and act spastically would have been so weird, you would have been killed for that reason.
If you literally think this than all I can do is laugh, as you clearly don't have the mafia know how I thought you did. Have you ever actually survived as SK to the end? I think I know exactly how to play it, and I certainly know that every move is different than it would be if I were town. I planned every single move I made in my last SK game, so don't try to tell me that it wouldn't have mattered "how" I played.
And evening out this contest to make it a wash is not way too much, and clearly the majority of people agree with me on this.
Your metaphor about manslaughter and a stop sign is also laughably invalid.
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And evening out this contest to make it a wash is not way too much, and clearly the majority of people agree with me on this.
Your metaphor about manslaughter and a stop sign is also laughably invalid.
However this is resolved, I'd like to go on record as saying I think its being handled incorrectly. The statement of a clear majority is not as clear as you would like to think from your singular perspective.
And feel free to call me biased. I'd say I gain more from this new, incorrect ruling. I'll still rail against it if we're open for discussion.
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I'm a little confused as to why have "stakes" matters in whether it's appropriate to reroll assignments. Randomizing is the traditional method of keeping moderator bias out of role assignments but it's not a holy, untouchable law. There are perfectly valid reasons for rerolling or adjusting random results, such as too many experienced players in one alignment. Making sure the same player doesn't have essentially the exact same role twice in a row is not unreasonable; the only negative I would say is the potential to set a precedent and create awful "well he was scum in the last CCM so he isn't now" arguments. I seriously doubt AI's decision had anything to do with favoring one clan or player over another.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Kpaca... did you actually play this game? You were the best candidate for an early nightkill not because of what you did, but because everyone else seemed hellbent on doing everything wrong, and no one had your level of experience. Between this and the pro-mafia setup, you were already screwed before the roles were distributed.
Unless you were Mafia. Any number of random players in that driver's seat could have won IMO. But yeah. This whole town played very poorly, lazily, and illogically.
Plus the fact that he ended up in a revealed PR IIRC. Easy choice is easy.
Also +1 Kraj.
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Rerolling roles was done for the best interests of the game with the specific reason being that it would not be appropriate or fair to give the SK role to the same player two CCMs in a row. The example I provided via PM to rianalnn was when Kraj had to cancel Superhero Mafia, in which Cyan and kpaca were mafia. In Kraj's replacement game [...]
[...]
[...] I was not trying to put any Clan down or hurt any Clan's chances. I was trying to keep things as fair as possible.
But you didn't do that. Does someone have to walk through the math to make this argument? I hesitate to go through math because then people think I the speaker believes they are total idiots (even though math, especially statistical math, is a tough trick even for experienced mathematicians). Is there a need for it here?
EDIT: I suspect I would be getting complaints of a different nature if kpaca were SK again, and won again. You can't please everyone.
I don't see where the problem is. It's not like someone didn't get a role. They were just rerolled. Do you think if he had a different role he would've won faster?
I still think the mafia would've won.
Do you think all roles in a Mafia game are perfectly equal? I was reading pointing theory, I thought it was conceded that it's a practically unattainable ideal. This is about the iterated game the Mafia forum represents, right? That's what the Mafia council is looking after, right?
I'm a little confused as to why have "stakes" matters in whether it's appropriate to reroll assignments.
It doesn't. It just removes margins for forgiveness.
Randomizing is the traditional method of keeping moderator bias out of role assignments but it's not a holy, untouchable law. There are perfectly valid reasons for rerolling or adjusting random results, such as too many experienced players in one alignment. Making sure the same player doesn't have essentially the exact same role twice in a row is not unreasonable; the only negative I would say is the potential to set a precedent and create awful "well he was scum in the last CCM so he isn't now" arguments. I seriously doubt AI's decision had anything to do with favoring one clan or player over another.
This isn't about AI favoring people; he says he did not intend maliciousness and what are you going to do? This is if he just did something negligently stupid.
How can you underplay the effect of allowing those arguments to hold water? The randomization is what creates the mystery of the game, it's not about moderator bias. Explain, for those as curious as I am, how the game is Mafia if I already know beforehand some information about who is Mafioso, before reading any posts?
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It is unfortunate that it has come to this, and I can understand the anger. A lot of time and effort was put into the game with expected results that would hopefully effect your clan's standing for Clan of the Year. I do hope that while you played the game you still had fun, some small token to take home after all is said and done.
The Clan Moderators have discussed this at length and reviewed all the issues. Here are some of the thoughts on the matter.
There were several issues throughout this event. Two that come to mind are:
1. Balance: The game was biased strongly in favor for the Mafia to win. After the town lynched a townie on day six the mafia effectively won.
2. Lurking: Lurking simply was not enforced. Repeated warnings, sure, but its hard to say it was enforced when a player can take a nine day hiatus.
These two do not indicate tampering, but it does demonstrate that what a role a person got would strongly influence game play beyond individual performance, and that "if" tampering were to occur it could strongly influence who won. I don't think the balance of the game went unnoticed, both Artifice 101 and ZeDorkSlipeur's comments suggest that they figured the mafia was over powered.
That's not really what drove our conversation, just an observation we made. No, the thing that really drove our conversation was the small, lighthearted comment that started all this:
Quote from Emo Pinata »
I'm guessing [kpaca]'s not the SK twice. AI doesn't want the Called to win that badly.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
ROFL. I'll tell you a hilarious story after the game is over/TIK is dead. Don't let me forget.
First let me say that this back to back exchange occurred on the family's QT on 8-23-2011, during day 3. The implications here is that AsianInvasion basically confirmed, albeit unintentionally, the presence of a SK to the mafia. Now some mafia games have an SK and some don't. That knowledge is not revealed and the added variable can change behavior and performance. To put a Drafting analogy to it, your play style is different when there's just a possibility of your opponent playing blasphemous act verses the confirmed knowledge that he has blasphemous act. AsianInvasion basically confirmed the presence of an SK to the Mafia.
Of course AsianInvasion didn't directly state as such, but its there to read. Really depends on how competent you think family members are at playing mafia.
Still, that's just a side note. It's the followup that caught our attention.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
What happened was that the first time I randomized roles, kpaca was Nicol Bolas. I came to the exact conclusion Emo Pinata predicted and rerolled.
Let me put those side by side and bold where necessary:
Quote from Emo Pinata »
AI doesn't want the Called to win that badly.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
I came to the exact conclusion Emo Pinata predicted and rerolled.
That's probably the worst statement he could have made. A direct confession saying that he changed results because he didn't like who had what role. A direct confession that he made judgements based only on clan. This also invites questions about the integrity of the other roles. Were there any other "adjustments"? Did those who become mafia get it by random, an adjusted random, or something else? Was there a reason some people were able to lurk unhindered? Was there a reason the mafia was so over powered? Was this game gamed from the start?
Was this a joke in poor taste? Perhaps, after all, if that was the case why would anyone admit to it? But in a game where stakes are high, where a person's role strongly influences success, where people care about the results...why would you even joke about this? Why would you hint that its a possibility? It's too serious a statement to brush off, laugh at, and dismiss. In the end, after all was said and done, we decided it was too serious a statement to ignore.
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First let me say that this back to back exchange occurred on the family's QT on 8-23-2011, during day 3. The implications here is that AsianInvasion basically confirmed, albeit unintentionally, the presence of a SK to the mafia. Now some mafia games have an SK and some don't. That knowledge is not revealed and the added variable can change behavior and performance. To put a Drafting analogy to it, your play style is different when there's just a possibility of your opponent playing blasphemous act verses the confirmed knowledge that he has blasphemous act. AsianInvasion basically confirmed the presence of an SK to the Mafia.
I would like to point out that before you start bashing AI for all this "hidden text" garbage, I was already dead at this point and unable to tell the mafia that AI "confirmed" the SK, even though it was painfully obvious there was an SK from Archmage Eternal's death.
As far as all this other stuff goes, I am very mixed on the results. I don't think there is any issue with randomizing results, and I think going with the bolded is kind of scraping the barrel, unless AI actually confirms that's what he meant, but w/e.
Still, that's just a side note. It's the followup that caught our attention.
Before you start bashing us for something we haven't done, I will confirm that it's just another example of how careless AI was being. The biggest example of this is the setup;
Do you all realize that from Day 7, the mafia could just out themselves & force the game to a draw? Shalako could not be lynched unless a mafioso helped. The game is a train wreck balance-wise.
Again, we came to this decision based on the comment AI doesn't want the Called to win/I came to the exact conclusion. Everything after that is damage control (the mafia was underpowered playerwise, it was just a joke) & has to be viewed as such.
It makes no difference. "I'm rerolling the results to skew who might win based on a specific player landing a role he excels at because I don't want that very much"; is that better?
eds – It should Not. Even. Been. A. Consideration.
Everyone knows the mod can (and probably do) "reroll" any roles he deem fit ("oh man, my best friend is vanilla, let me reroll again until he's a cop"), but it's bad form to openly talk about it because I can set some bad influence. Please never do it again AI.
But (to me at least) the accusations that AI did so because he was wanting to favor one of other clan are ridiculous, I also don't agree that mafia was overpowered and town never stood a chance.
random musings:
I read somewhere that no matter if we lynched tordeck on last day, shalako was unlynchable and the mafia had already won. (That's why I said it TIK) but looks like the guy that said it was wrong. So the argument that mafia was "invincible" is wrong.
Town sucked ass, I think this was one of the worst town games I've read (I was really while I did my full reread). When I joined the game it was apparent town was in torpor and had already gave up, I tried to defibrilate town with some shock revealings and push the mass claim and stuff but it didn't work.
I don't think that mafia was overpowered. Yes, the mass roleblock was too strong, the mana pool was very strong too. But let me say some things town did that were awful.
a)Arcadic breadcrumbed a "graveyard" power role, there goes Karn D1.
b)artifice claimed cop when he was a metal cop. Vezo CCed ftl.
c)DDC lied in a BIG way, claimed to be a tracker and friendly neighbor, that's an impossible role.
d)Tezz breadcrumbed to be a doc from a loooong time ago. Somehow still live for the longest tim.
e)kpaca claimed vig on D1, died soon after.
f)Some guys spammed the thread with useless chatter A LOT. Artifice do you remember when I told you would improve as a player when refrained from spamming because it clogs the day and makes it easier for scum to win? This game is the perfect example of that happening, everyone was so tired/drained that they simply stopped caring and gave the game to the scum. This is not a coincidence, it was the collateral damage of the spam.
e)Town put TIK on L-1 and let him self-hammer to stop conversation.
TLDR: If town played better and some roles had the chance to use their powers (Karn was brokeeen!) all could be different. The truth is that Mafia played better and deserved the win.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
X) Tordeck messed up his claim, claiming he targeted a dead player who wasn't dead at the time; none of you caught it (not that it would have mattered - lynch tordeck, townie dies at night, Day 8 5 alive, 3/2 scum split, lynch killjoy, townie dies at night, Day 9 3 alive, town cannot lynch Shalako)
I don't think that mafia was overpowered. Yes, the mass roleblock was too strong, the mana pool was very strong too.
eds – you have to take the balance in a Clan Contest Mafia game in the context of a player like Horseshoe Hermit – he's never played before, he doesn't ken the social dynamic. A handful of players like that by itself makes a game harder, especially if they are town; coordination or cooperation among townies becomes almost entirely improbable.
Then you have repeated 5 day+ nights killing momentum & interest. What chance did this town have, exactly?
@HH please continue playing mafia, you surely have the skills to do it, your reads were stellar, and you should not get angry at killjoy, everything he did was just the way he found to help his team, don't think it was personal, just disregard it. If only you could express yourself in a clearer way...
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
X) Tordeck messed up his claim, claiming he targeted a dead player who wasn't dead at the time; none of you caught it (not that it would have mattered - lynch tordeck, townie dies at night, Day 8 5 alive, 3/2 scum split, lynch killjoy, townie dies at night, Day 9 3 alive, town cannot lynch Shalako)
Tordeck claim was atrocious for a ton of motives, everyone knew it was a lie (but we really missed that point you made, not that it mattered anyway) the problem was that chibi was not caring anymore, he just wanted the game to end.
And I acknowledged that stuff on the things I've said, but I still don't think that's BROKEN. Yes, Shalako was unlychable on a 3-man lylo, but what are the chances of that happening on this game? He could have been lynched, vigged by the SK, vigged by the cop, a lot of things could have happened before lylo. His role was just overpowered on lylo, that's fine IMHO.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
My point there is, unless the mafia helped lynch Shalako, the town could not win from Day 7. It's not just from 3 man lynch or lose. It's unbalanced that even had the town miraculously come together on that day – Tordeck is scum! Killjoy is scum! – it would not matter.
You don't think the mass role-block that is basically a town power role batsignal is game-breaking?
That's probably the worst statement he could have made. A direct confession saying that he changed results because he didn't like who had what role. A direct confession that he made judgements based only on clan. This also invites questions about the integrity of the other roles. Were there any other "adjustments"? Did those who become mafia get it by random, an adjusted random, or something else? Was there a reason some people were able to lurk unhindered? Was there a reason the mafia was so over powered? Was this game gamed from the start?
Referencing these comments:
Quote from Emo Pinata »
I'm guessing [kpaca]'s not the SK twice. AI doesn't want the Called to win that badly.
What happened was that the first time I randomized roles, kpaca was Nicol Bolas. I came to the exact conclusion Emo Pinata predicted and rerolled.
Did it cross anyone's mind that AsianInvasion just might be referring to the first part of the comment: "I'm guessing kpaca's not the SK twice," instead of the last part and just worded his response poorly...
That seems way more likely than rigging the entire contest against certain clans.
That's exactly how I read it. I didn't immediately suspect AI of rigging the contest against the Called. I figured he changed it because it would mean that kpaca would be the serial killer in two of his games in a row.
I'm not saying what AI did was right or wrong or the game was unfair for one side or the other, because I don't particularly care. But I think saying AI specifically rigged the game against any clan is incorrect.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
My point there is, unless the mafia helped lynch Shalako, the town could not win from Day 7. It's not just from 3 man lynch or lose. It's unbalanced that even had the town miraculously come together on that day – Tordeck is scum! Killjoy is scum! – it would not matter.
You don't think the mass role-block that is basically a town power role batsignal is game-breaking?
1) That's not totally true. let me explain why. "Hey guys, tordeck and Shalako are scum, let's lynch tordeck first because he falseclaimed cop"
on next day:
"Ok everyone agrees Shalako is scum, after a long and hard delivaration we decided he's obvscum and is today's lynch, let's now lynch him everyone votes". "Ok, now is only you missing killjoy."
"killjoy..?" "killjoy?!"
I know that's an unlikely scenario but Killjoy would be claiming scum if he didn't comply with town, he's a reasonable player. (actually that's the reason I caught Shalako, he's a pretty good player, he discussion with me was too awful to be town shalako)
2)Definitively the mass block was very STRONG but only a "batsignal" if the vanilla didn't received the roleblock PM. Did they receive AI?
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I would like to point out that before you start bashing AI for all this "hidden text" garbage, I was already dead
First, I am not here to Bash AI. He offered to run a clan contest and that is always appreciated. Mistakes happened, an unfortunate side effect of being human, but there were enough mistakes that caught our eye. You're point is well taken, since you were dead there wouldn't have been a leak of information on day 3.
But (to me at least) the accusations that AI did so because he was wanting to favor one of other clan are ridiculous,
Quote from the ice king »
I think going with the bolded is kind of scraping the barrel, unless AI actually confirms that's what he meant, but w/e.
Quote from ZDS ----gist of his statement »
How did: AI doesn't want the Called to win that badly. ----> AI doesn't want the Called to win
Again, it all comes down to this statement: "I came to the exact conclusion Emo Pinata predicted and rerolled."
This says one thing loud and clear, that a re-roll was conducted due to personal bias against a specific player. This statement was made by AsianInvasion, typed by his own hands. I am not "interpreting" or "grasping", or "reading into it", I'm taking it at face value to mean exactly what it says. My only real criticism of AI in all of this is that he didn't keep his mouth shut concerning the randomization.
It was a joke, but along the lines of, "ha ha look what I did." An old coworker of mine had the same joke in a high stakes poker game. Standard Ace up the sleeve. Oh he didn't win, folded before the flop, but it was an all-in bet and the river turned up ace. Winner had a royal flush. Lady Luck and all that. Coworker laughed at the luck, said it was luckier than we realize cause he had the fourth ace. He couldn't understand what the uproar was about, why the looser of the pot demanded the pot split even, and why the coworker was banned for life from our poker table...after all, the coworker wasn't even in the final had...he didn't win.
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And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
"the exact conclusion Emo Pinata predicted" doesn't make any sense referring to the first sentence.
E_P predicted that AI didn't want the Called to win that badly.
AI came to that exact conclusion.
That is the straightforward read of that comment.
Which is why I said that AI worded it poorly.
I read the exchange as "Could Kpaca possibly be the SK again after he just was in the last game? Bad luck mate."
(Note: I'm assuming bad luck because I haven't seen the SK win a whole lot in games where it has been included. Then again, I haven't read every game on this site so it could have a higher percentage of winning that I'm giving it credit for.)
"I thought the same thing so I rerolled."
Like I said, that is just my read of what happened. I didn't immediately think of rigging the game. Just a poorly worded comment about changing kpaca's roll when he saw it was the same thing as he had in the last game. Obviously the mods have the final say, but I personally don't think AI had any malicious intent against any single clan and thought I'd toss my two cents into the discussion before AI gets in some kind of trouble or de-mafia'd or whatever happens to mafia players these days.
That's coming from a guy who's clan member was the SK and lost the game but doesn't much care.
EDIT: My version of what I saw in the conversation is also poorly worded. By bad luck I mean both gameplay ramifications of the SK role, but also being forced into a narrow, not-often-winning role that takes a lot of focus and attention to detail to be able to play with any hope of winning.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Just for the record, this is a terrible way to look at game balance. You can't predict how a game will go, and you can't rely on a prediction (that you had no right to make) to balance your roles. Also, there is no such thing as a role only overpowered in some situations. Either it is balanced all the time or it is not balanced at all.
I was not trying to predict how the game would play, but you are certainly wrong that some roles do not get weaker/stronger depending on how many players there are still alive. (that was my point)
Let me give you some examples.
town/scum Double voter on a 24 player game on D1.
town/scum Double voter on 3 man lylo.
Town Unnightkillable with 10 town players alive.
town unightkillable with just he alive.
I could go on, but that's not necessary I think.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Honestly, the only real problem with Shalako's role is that it could make him unlynchable. This could have been balanced by cutting it off at a certain threshold (as in, the lynch threshold cannot go over the amount of non-mafia players remaining).
Aside from that, given the player base, there is honestly no way it would have mattered unless kpaca became scum. Any non-mafia remotely experienced player was just shot as soon as humanly possible.
But saying AI was trying to set it up for the Called to lose is just ridiculous. Given the player base and the SK's inherent squishiness (no, I'm not bitter), kpaca had a better chance as town than SK. Far better, in fact. At least there he had a chance to win despite being shot. (Still not bitter.)
SK is a role that's just not expected to win.
Sidenote: I was reading ZDS's post and was about to protest that I wasn't new or crazy before I realized I was scum. I almost forgot since I pretty much had to play for the town THE WHOLE TIME, it was that bad.
1. Balance: The game was biased strongly in favor for the Mafia to win. After the town lynched a townie on day six the mafia effectively won.
2. Lurking: Lurking simply was not enforced. Repeated warnings, sure, but its hard to say it was enforced when a player can take a nine day hiatus.
1. While I agree that the one-shot mass-roleblock ability was broken (no, vanilla townies did not receive notification), I argue that you can't judge how balanced the game was because the town failed to kill a single anti-town role without a guilty investigation by a confirmed-through-death cop. Multiple town players deliberately lied, with the results ranging from no gain (DRey) to horrible disaster (Artifice 101, Digicooldad). To my knowledge, this was the worst town in the history of MTGS Mafia.
2. I should have been more strict, but I didn't want to make an unpopular decision and stir up drama (fat lot of good that did me) by modkilling even egregious lurkers.
An excerpt from a PM Daggertooth and I exchanged:
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Quote from Daggertooth »
1) Was there any truth to that joke. Did you, at any point in your decision to re-roll, specifically consider the individual in question, the clan he represented, and decide to re-roll just to reduce that person's performance? Did that cross your mind at all?
I realized that I may be hurting the [Called]'s chances, but I felt that even if I was, doing so in the interest of keeping the setup fair was correct. I would have done the same if my Clan rep were in the same position. The needs of the game superceded the needs of any Clan. Also keep in mind that, as I said, the original role distribution had no experienced mafia at all. The powerful neutral role going to the same Representative from the same Clan as last year's neutral role was simply another factor forcing me to reroll to make the setup even remotely balanced. If the originally rolled mafia team had been more experienced, I frankly do not know if I would have rerolled or not.
I'll reiterate that I was not acting maliciously. Thank you for your time.
I believe I have misinterpreted what AI did here. I was under the impression he saw me as SK, and then tampered with roles to stop that. I did not realize he looked at the entire list, and then decided the game should be rerolled.
I retract my complaint. I'm still not a fan of rerolling (wasn't a fan of you doing it to me either Kraj), but I'm over it.
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1) That's not totally true. let me explain why. "Hey guys, tordeck and Shalako are scum, let's lynch tordeck first because he falseclaimed cop"
on next day:
"Ok everyone agrees Shalako is scum, after a long and hard delivaration we decided he's obvscum and is today's lynch, let's now lynch him everyone votes". "Ok, now is only you missing killjoy."
"killjoy..?" "killjoy?!"
I know that's an unlikely scenario but Killjoy would be claiming scum if he didn't comply with town, he's a reasonable player. (actually that's the reason I caught Shalako, he's a pretty good player, he discussion with me was too awful to be town shalako)
2)Definitively the mass block was very STRONG but only a "batsignal" if the vanilla didn't received the roleblock PM. Did they receive AI?
That would result in the same situation.
If there were 5 left: 3 town, 2 scum, then shal would require 4 votes to be lynched. KJ would not vote, be lynched, and then Game over.
2 town, 1 scum= 3 to lynch shal= impossible.
That was unwinnable.
What sucks is that, as a whole, town had all the scum pegged.
I was just an idiot.
There were several issues throughout this event. Two that come to mind are:
1. Balance: The game was biased strongly in favor for the Mafia to win. After the town lynched a townie on day six the mafia effectively won.
The Game was not so biased in favor for the mafia to win. That's an absurd statement.
Should the Fist Clan Contest be taken off the record for being imbalanced too then?
2. Lurking: Lurking simply was not enforced. Repeated warnings, sure, but its hard to say it was enforced when a player can take a nine day hiatus.
So D-J would have been mod killed for lurking and the game would have been a Mafia Win. Again.is:
First let me say that this back to back exchange occurred on the family's QT on 8-23-2011, during day 3. The implications here is that AsianInvasion basically confirmed, albeit unintentionally, the presence of a SK to the mafia.
We already know that there was a SK due to Blocking everybody who was Town and A.E. dying.
So even if TIK had picked up on that (He did not.) it wouldn't have mattered.
AsianInvasion basically confirmed the presence of an SK to the Mafia.
He did no such thing.
Of course AsianInvasion didn't directly state as such, but its there to read. Really depends on how competent you think family members are at playing mafia.
Wow.
That's probably the worst statement he could have made. A direct confession saying that he changed results because he didn't like who had what role.
Correct.
The bigger issue is if Rerolling should be banned or not as there is no Stance from the Council at this time on it(to the best of my knowledge.)
There is no rule against what A.I. did.
The Fact that Rerolling is being used as a strawman to take this win away from the players who were in this game is pathetic.
A direct confession that he made judgements based only on clan.
How did you arrive at this statement?
It seems to me that A.I. is talking about not thinking it's fair to K-P to be the Serial Killer yet again.
This also invites questions about the integrity of the other roles.
Oh good the Slippery Slope argument.
Because A.I. rerolled once He'll reroll for anything.
He's a game-ruining Madman.
Was there a reason some people were able to lurk unhindered?
Because if A.I. had Modkilled anybody for lurking the Game would have ended.
Was there a reason the mafia was so over powered?
The Mafia wasn't overpowered.
We had one massrole block.
That was our only way to roleblock(Besides one Role) ANYTHING.
In the end, after all was said and done, we decided it was too serious a statement to ignore.
Before you start bashing us for something we haven't done, I will confirm that it's just another example of how careless AI was being. The biggest example of this is the setup;
Daggertooth is quite clearly bashing A.I. for posting "hidden inception level messages"
Do you all realize that from Day 7, the mafia could just out themselves & force the game to a draw? Shalako could not be lynched unless a mafioso helped. The game is a train wreck balance-wise.
Do you realize that from Day 1, the Mafia could have lost the game? Shalako could have been taken out by SIX ROLES before doomsday. The game is a train wreck due to the worst Town play in years.
Again, we came to this decision based on the comment AI doesn't want the Called to win/I came to the exact conclusion.
*cough
Everything after that is damage control (the mafia was underpowered playerwise, it was just a joke) & has to be viewed as such.
Are you kidding?
How is this different from what you were bashing A.I. for doing?
eds – you have to take the balance in a Clan Contest Mafia game in the context of a player like Horseshoe Hermit – he's never played before, he doesn't ken the social dynamic. A handful of players like that by itself makes a game harder, especially if they are town; coordination or cooperation among townies becomes almost entirely improbable.
Then you have repeated 5 day+ nights killing momentum & interest. What chance did this town have, exactly?
If Shalako's role was overpowered, it was because the town lynched once, correctly in 7 days. Two of those lynches were literally people throwing themselves at the noose.
Find me a town that can do that and not lose.
While I'm on the subject, the only two scum deaths were SOLELY due to the Cop and SK. Those two people would not have been lynched otherwise.
Incorrect. There has always been a rule about tampering and biasing results to disadvantage others. If you believe otherwise then you are mistaken. The question here is if that actually took place. If you think that the issue is something else, then again, you are mistaken.
It seems to me that A.I. is talking about not thinking it's fair to K-P to be the Serial Killer yet again.
A few are trying to look at it that way. Say that he was talking about the first sentence instead of the last. Reads backwards...doesn't help that he made such statements in the worst way possible.
Daggertooth is quite clearly bashing A.I. for posting "hidden inception level messages"
No. Once again you are mistaken.
You don't seem to understand the issue at hand here, and I say this not to bash or insult you, but because your primary points are not focused on the main issue. I want to make it clear to you and to everyone who wishes to voice their opinion on small aspects of this case. The lurking, the strength of the mafia, implying roles on outside threads...those are small issues that are simply amplified by allegations of bias. You can disagree with those, pull out little nuggets of info line by line, dig out a list and call it evidence, claim that 9 day hiatuses are normal while the game is in day, ...and you can even get me to agree with some of those points. Certainly the ice king did well by clarifying his issue, and if enough people come out to tell me the mafia wasn't over powered, well then I can go along with that.
Doesn't matter because if that's what you are focusing on then you are missing the reason this is a big deal, the reason the contest was nixed. ...And that was because AI stated that he took action based solely on one person and the position he was given. If you want to play with interpreting the statements made by AsianInvasion himself, well you are welcome to it. But I will maintain that the interpretation that flows best, that reads easiest, certainly and clearly states that AI took actions based on clan and nothing else. ...And that is the issue, that is what I've been focused on, that's what you all should be focused on, and that's why the contest was nixed. Interpretation is one thing, but even the hint of result tampering is looked at very seriously.
Now, I've talked to AI and he's given me his Word that what happened was a decision based on multiple factors which included both the repeat position of the SK and the relative experience of the mafia. A decision that was not driven by clan placement. That would be acceptable, and though I've focused primarily on AI's initial statements on this matter, I have no reason to believe that he would lie to my face when asked directly. We Clan Moderators are reopening discussions on weather to nix the contest. There are a few people I need to hunt down to discuss this matter. In the mean time I'd like to hear continued thoughts on the matter from you guys.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
***Official Rune Master and Rational Extremest of The Called***
************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
I want to loudly second the comment about veteran players.
Where it stands now, the game is a draw. All Clan rep participants have been given 5 out of 9 possible points towards Clan of the Year + 1 for participating. Pending staff discussion of Dt's mastersleuth-level ongoing investigation, that will either stick, or points will be awarded as normal (so please go vote your MVP/LVPs if you haven't. Just in case).
For the record, neither path affects the Called's standing in the Clan of the Year Race (we've been lazy, & this genuinely isn't about Us; see Dt's post above).
& yes I am pressuring Sherlock Daggertooth to get his feet wet in a Basic. He's played IRL
Yes, and what do you think happens when a scum is unlynchable?
Town. Cannot. Possibly. Win.
(also, I agree the town was going to lose whether or not they could lynch Shalako. Still, it's no excuse)
I believe we agree on this point, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
I don't think it's fair to call a player a Veteran just because he's been here a couple years. As far as I'm concerned, experience is not about time or about the number of games played; it's about improvement. Ie: The veteran is the one who learned to play without making blatant mistakes.
This game's only veteran was Kpaca. Everyone else has miles to go before they reach veteran-levels of experience. This game itself is the proof.
If this contest is seriously being considered for cancellation, can it come down to a vote (with each Clan having one vote)?
You misunderstood. The clan moderators got together and discussed this at length, at which point we unanimously decided to nix the contest. That was two days ago. When I say we are reopening the topic for discussion, I am saying that we have opened up dialog with each other to discuss the possibility of reversing this decision. To nix the contest was a unanimous decision when it was made, and I'd like it to be unanimous if we decide to reverse it. As of yet, not all of us has weighed in on the matter.
I'm asking because it appears the majority (if not all) of the complainants or from The Called,
The first three Non-AI mafia participants to post following AI's initial statement on this matter all spoke out negatively; Kpaca, Yanni, and DigicoolDad. Only one of those belong to the Called. It was at that point where this topic was brought to my attention. I've reviewed it and you know the conclusion I made. So, a simple scroll back will show that not all the complaints are from the called. Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned this isn't about the called, this is about whether or not a contest was rigged. Whether or not decisions were made solely based on clan. If it was confirmed that bias played a role in this contest then I don't care which clan was targeted or how many clans were targeted, I would nix the contest. It wouldn't matter to me that the clans that benefited from such action wanted to keep their benefits even if it were the majority. These contests are not suppose to be rigged and I take such matters very seriously.
Now as I said above, I've discussed this stuff personally with AI and have no reason to think he'd lie to my face about it. His explanation, and the continued constructive discussion in this thread, is being considered carefully as we discuss reversing our decision to cancel the contest.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
***Official Rune Master and Rational Extremest of The Called***
************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
The clan moderators got together and discussed this at length, at which point we unanimously decided to nix the contest. That was two days ago. When I say we are reopening the topic for discussion, I am saying that we have opened up dialog with each other to discuss the possibility of reversing this decision. To nix the contest was a unanimous decision when it was made, and I'd like it to be unanimous if we decide to reverse it. As of yet, not all of us has weighed in on the matter.
Emphasis mine.
therein lies an issue in my book. How bout you take it to the Clan Reps, the ones that area actually affected by this and let them decide.
I would rather it stay in the hands of the mods personally, as they are expected to be impartial in a situation like this. The same cannot be said of clan reps. I should know, I'm a clan rep. I'm not the least bit impartial.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
If the clan moderators are the problem, well then you are in trouble. The Clan Moderator staff doesn't change very often. There is talk about taking on new blood, perhaps something to look forward to in the future.
***Official Rune Master and Rational Extremest of The Called***
************************From Sound to Sea**********************
And I guess that I'm a lucky one for the truth of what I know. For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go. I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone. If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
If the clan moderators are the problem, well then you are in trouble. The Clan Moderator staff doesn't change very often. There is talk about taking on new blood, perhaps something to look forward to in the future.
Its a well established fact that I dont like about 90% of the mod staff on this forum.
Although....perhaps council participation shouldn't be completely excluded in such matters.
I still think the mafia would've won.
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If you literally think this than all I can do is laugh, as you clearly don't have the mafia know how I thought you did. Have you ever actually survived as SK to the end? I think I know exactly how to play it, and I certainly know that every move is different than it would be if I were town. I planned every single move I made in my last SK game, so don't try to tell me that it wouldn't have mattered "how" I played.
And evening out this contest to make it a wash is not way too much, and clearly the majority of people agree with me on this.
Your metaphor about manslaughter and a stop sign is also laughably invalid.
And feel free to call me biased. I'd say I gain more from this new, incorrect ruling. I'll still rail against it if we're open for discussion.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Plus the fact that he ended up in a revealed PR IIRC. Easy choice is easy.
Also +1 Kraj.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Yanni, I read around the boards. Please don't leave MTGSal. All I can say is I don't want you to.
Now that this is for every player to discuss, I have thoughts.
But you didn't do that. Does someone have to walk through the math to make this argument? I hesitate to go through math because then people think
Ithe speaker believes they are total idiots (even though math, especially statistical math, is a tough trick even for experienced mathematicians). Is there a need for it here?Those complaints would be stupid.
Do you think all roles in a Mafia game are perfectly equal? I was reading pointing theory, I thought it was conceded that it's a practically unattainable ideal. This is about the iterated game the Mafia forum represents, right? That's what the Mafia council is looking after, right?
It doesn't. It just removes margins for forgiveness.
This isn't about AI favoring people; he says he did not intend maliciousness and what are you going to do? This is if he just did something negligently stupid.
How can you underplay the effect of allowing those arguments to hold water? The randomization is what creates the mystery of the game, it's not about moderator bias. Explain, for those as curious as I am, how the game is Mafia if I already know beforehand some information about who is Mafioso, before reading any posts?
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The Clan Moderators have discussed this at length and reviewed all the issues. Here are some of the thoughts on the matter.
There were several issues throughout this event. Two that come to mind are:
1. Balance: The game was biased strongly in favor for the Mafia to win. After the town lynched a townie on day six the mafia effectively won.
2. Lurking: Lurking simply was not enforced. Repeated warnings, sure, but its hard to say it was enforced when a player can take a nine day hiatus.
These two do not indicate tampering, but it does demonstrate that what a role a person got would strongly influence game play beyond individual performance, and that "if" tampering were to occur it could strongly influence who won. I don't think the balance of the game went unnoticed, both Artifice 101 and ZeDorkSlipeur's comments suggest that they figured the mafia was over powered.
That's not really what drove our conversation, just an observation we made. No, the thing that really drove our conversation was the small, lighthearted comment that started all this:
First let me say that this back to back exchange occurred on the family's QT on 8-23-2011, during day 3. The implications here is that AsianInvasion basically confirmed, albeit unintentionally, the presence of a SK to the mafia. Now some mafia games have an SK and some don't. That knowledge is not revealed and the added variable can change behavior and performance. To put a Drafting analogy to it, your play style is different when there's just a possibility of your opponent playing blasphemous act verses the confirmed knowledge that he has blasphemous act. AsianInvasion basically confirmed the presence of an SK to the Mafia.
Of course AsianInvasion didn't directly state as such, but its there to read. Really depends on how competent you think family members are at playing mafia.
Still, that's just a side note. It's the followup that caught our attention.
Let me put those side by side and bold where necessary:
That's probably the worst statement he could have made. A direct confession saying that he changed results because he didn't like who had what role. A direct confession that he made judgements based only on clan. This also invites questions about the integrity of the other roles. Were there any other "adjustments"? Did those who become mafia get it by random, an adjusted random, or something else? Was there a reason some people were able to lurk unhindered? Was there a reason the mafia was so over powered? Was this game gamed from the start?
Was this a joke in poor taste? Perhaps, after all, if that was the case why would anyone admit to it? But in a game where stakes are high, where a person's role strongly influences success, where people care about the results...why would you even joke about this? Why would you hint that its a possibility? It's too serious a statement to brush off, laugh at, and dismiss. In the end, after all was said and done, we decided it was too serious a statement to ignore.
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
I would like to point out that before you start bashing AI for all this "hidden text" garbage, I was already dead at this point and unable to tell the mafia that AI "confirmed" the SK, even though it was painfully obvious there was an SK from Archmage Eternal's death.
As far as all this other stuff goes, I am very mixed on the results. I don't think there is any issue with randomizing results, and I think going with the bolded is kind of scraping the barrel, unless AI actually confirms that's what he meant, but w/e.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Before you start bashing us for something we haven't done, I will confirm that it's just another example of how careless AI was being. The biggest example of this is the setup;
Do you all realize that from Day 7, the mafia could just out themselves & force the game to a draw? Shalako could not be lynched unless a mafioso helped. The game is a train wreck balance-wise.
Again, we came to this decision based on the comment AI doesn't want the Called to win/I came to the exact conclusion. Everything after that is damage control (the mafia was underpowered playerwise, it was just a joke) & has to be viewed as such.
eds – It should Not. Even. Been. A. Consideration.
But (to me at least) the accusations that AI did so because he was wanting to favor one of other clan are ridiculous, I also don't agree that mafia was overpowered and town never stood a chance.
random musings:
I read somewhere that no matter if we lynched tordeck on last day, shalako was unlynchable and the mafia had already won. (That's why I said it TIK) but looks like the guy that said it was wrong. So the argument that mafia was "invincible" is wrong.
Town sucked ass, I think this was one of the worst town games I've read (I was really while I did my full reread). When I joined the game it was apparent town was in torpor and had already gave up, I tried to defibrilate town with some shock revealings and push the mass claim and stuff but it didn't work.
I don't think that mafia was overpowered. Yes, the mass roleblock was too strong, the mana pool was very strong too. But let me say some things town did that were awful.
a)Arcadic breadcrumbed a "graveyard" power role, there goes Karn D1.
b)artifice claimed cop when he was a metal cop. Vezo CCed ftl.
c)DDC lied in a BIG way, claimed to be a tracker and friendly neighbor, that's an impossible role.
d)Tezz breadcrumbed to be a doc from a loooong time ago. Somehow still live for the longest tim.
e)kpaca claimed vig on D1, died soon after.
f)Some guys spammed the thread with useless chatter A LOT. Artifice do you remember when I told you would improve as a player when refrained from spamming because it clogs the day and makes it easier for scum to win? This game is the perfect example of that happening, everyone was so tired/drained that they simply stopped caring and gave the game to the scum. This is not a coincidence, it was the collateral damage of the spam.
e)Town put TIK on L-1 and let him self-hammer to stop conversation.
TLDR: If town played better and some roles had the chance to use their powers (Karn was brokeeen!) all could be different. The truth is that Mafia played better and deserved the win.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
X) Tordeck messed up his claim, claiming he targeted a dead player who wasn't dead at the time; none of you caught it (not that it would have mattered - lynch tordeck, townie dies at night, Day 8 5 alive, 3/2 scum split, lynch killjoy, townie dies at night, Day 9 3 alive, town cannot lynch Shalako)
eds – you have to take the balance in a Clan Contest Mafia game in the context of a player like Horseshoe Hermit – he's never played before, he doesn't ken the social dynamic. A handful of players like that by itself makes a game harder, especially if they are town; coordination or cooperation among townies becomes almost entirely improbable.
Then you have repeated 5 day+ nights killing momentum & interest. What chance did this town have, exactly?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Tordeck claim was atrocious for a ton of motives, everyone knew it was a lie (but we really missed that point you made, not that it mattered anyway) the problem was that chibi was not caring anymore, he just wanted the game to end.
And I acknowledged that stuff on the things I've said, but I still don't think that's BROKEN. Yes, Shalako was unlychable on a 3-man lylo, but what are the chances of that happening on this game? He could have been lynched, vigged by the SK, vigged by the cop, a lot of things could have happened before lylo. His role was just overpowered on lylo, that's fine IMHO.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You don't think the mass role-block that is basically a town power role batsignal is game-breaking?
This quote:
Referencing these comments:
Did it cross anyone's mind that AsianInvasion just might be referring to the first part of the comment: "I'm guessing kpaca's not the SK twice," instead of the last part and just worded his response poorly...
That seems way more likely than rigging the entire contest against certain clans.
That's exactly how I read it. I didn't immediately suspect AI of rigging the contest against the Called. I figured he changed it because it would mean that kpaca would be the serial killer in two of his games in a row.
I'm not saying what AI did was right or wrong or the game was unfair for one side or the other, because I don't particularly care. But I think saying AI specifically rigged the game against any clan is incorrect.
{Magic: The RPG}
E_P predicted that AI didn't want the Called to win that badly.
AI came to that exact conclusion.
That is the straightforward read of that comment.
Your re-read also goes against AI later saying 'it was just a joke'.
This is just going in circles, I don't think I'm doing anything useful here at this point.
/out
1) That's not totally true. let me explain why. "Hey guys, tordeck and Shalako are scum, let's lynch tordeck first because he falseclaimed cop"
on next day:
"Ok everyone agrees Shalako is scum, after a long and hard delivaration we decided he's obvscum and is today's lynch, let's now lynch him everyone votes". "Ok, now is only you missing killjoy."
"killjoy..?" "killjoy?!"
I know that's an unlikely scenario but Killjoy would be claiming scum if he didn't comply with town, he's a reasonable player. (actually that's the reason I caught Shalako, he's a pretty good player, he discussion with me was too awful to be town shalako)
2)Definitively the mass block was very STRONG but only a "batsignal" if the vanilla didn't received the roleblock PM. Did they receive AI?
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
First, I am not here to Bash AI. He offered to run a clan contest and that is always appreciated. Mistakes happened, an unfortunate side effect of being human, but there were enough mistakes that caught our eye. You're point is well taken, since you were dead there wouldn't have been a leak of information on day 3.
Again, it all comes down to this statement: "I came to the exact conclusion Emo Pinata predicted and rerolled."
This says one thing loud and clear, that a re-roll was conducted due to personal bias against a specific player. This statement was made by AsianInvasion, typed by his own hands. I am not "interpreting" or "grasping", or "reading into it", I'm taking it at face value to mean exactly what it says. My only real criticism of AI in all of this is that he didn't keep his mouth shut concerning the randomization.
It was a joke, but along the lines of, "ha ha look what I did." An old coworker of mine had the same joke in a high stakes poker game. Standard Ace up the sleeve. Oh he didn't win, folded before the flop, but it was an all-in bet and the river turned up ace. Winner had a royal flush. Lady Luck and all that. Coworker laughed at the luck, said it was luckier than we realize cause he had the fourth ace. He couldn't understand what the uproar was about, why the looser of the pot demanded the pot split even, and why the coworker was banned for life from our poker table...after all, the coworker wasn't even in the final had...he didn't win.
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
Which is why I said that AI worded it poorly.
I read the exchange as "Could Kpaca possibly be the SK again after he just was in the last game? Bad luck mate."
(Note: I'm assuming bad luck because I haven't seen the SK win a whole lot in games where it has been included. Then again, I haven't read every game on this site so it could have a higher percentage of winning that I'm giving it credit for.)
"I thought the same thing so I rerolled."
Like I said, that is just my read of what happened. I didn't immediately think of rigging the game. Just a poorly worded comment about changing kpaca's roll when he saw it was the same thing as he had in the last game. Obviously the mods have the final say, but I personally don't think AI had any malicious intent against any single clan and thought I'd toss my two cents into the discussion before AI gets in some kind of trouble or de-mafia'd or whatever happens to mafia players these days.
That's coming from a guy who's clan member was the SK and lost the game but doesn't much care.
EDIT: My version of what I saw in the conversation is also poorly worded. By bad luck I mean both gameplay ramifications of the SK role, but also being forced into a narrow, not-often-winning role that takes a lot of focus and attention to detail to be able to play with any hope of winning.
{Magic: The RPG}
I was not trying to predict how the game would play, but you are certainly wrong that some roles do not get weaker/stronger depending on how many players there are still alive. (that was my point)
Let me give you some examples.
town/scum Double voter on a 24 player game on D1.
town/scum Double voter on 3 man lylo.
Town Unnightkillable with 10 town players alive.
town unightkillable with just he alive.
I could go on, but that's not necessary I think.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
Aside from that, given the player base, there is honestly no way it would have mattered unless kpaca became scum. Any non-mafia remotely experienced player was just shot as soon as humanly possible.
But saying AI was trying to set it up for the Called to lose is just ridiculous. Given the player base and the SK's inherent squishiness (no, I'm not bitter), kpaca had a better chance as town than SK. Far better, in fact. At least there he had a chance to win despite being shot. (Still not bitter.)
SK is a role that's just not expected to win.
Sidenote: I was reading ZDS's post and was about to protest that I wasn't new or crazy before I realized I was scum. I almost forgot since I pretty much had to play for the town THE WHOLE TIME, it was that bad.
1. While I agree that the one-shot mass-roleblock ability was broken (no, vanilla townies did not receive notification), I argue that you can't judge how balanced the game was because the town failed to kill a single anti-town role without a guilty investigation by a confirmed-through-death cop. Multiple town players deliberately lied, with the results ranging from no gain (DRey) to horrible disaster (Artifice 101, Digicooldad). To my knowledge, this was the worst town in the history of MTGS Mafia.
2. I should have been more strict, but I didn't want to make an unpopular decision and stir up drama (fat lot of good that did me) by modkilling even egregious lurkers.
An excerpt from a PM Daggertooth and I exchanged:
I'll reiterate that I was not acting maliciously. Thank you for your time.
I retract my complaint. I'm still not a fan of rerolling (wasn't a fan of you doing it to me either Kraj), but I'm over it.
That would result in the same situation.
If there were 5 left: 3 town, 2 scum, then shal would require 4 votes to be lynched. KJ would not vote, be lynched, and then Game over.
2 town, 1 scum= 3 to lynch shal= impossible.
That was unwinnable.
What sucks is that, as a whole, town had all the scum pegged.
I was just an idiot.
The Game was not so biased in favor for the mafia to win. That's an absurd statement.
Should the Fist Clan Contest be taken off the record for being imbalanced too then?
So D-J would have been mod killed for lurking and the game would have been a Mafia Win. Again.is:
We already know that there was a SK due to Blocking everybody who was Town and A.E. dying.
So even if TIK had picked up on that (He did not.) it wouldn't have mattered.
He did no such thing.
Wow.
Correct.
The bigger issue is if Rerolling should be banned or not as there is no Stance from the Council at this time on it(to the best of my knowledge.)
There is no rule against what A.I. did.
The Fact that Rerolling is being used as a strawman to take this win away from the players who were in this game is pathetic.
How did you arrive at this statement?
It seems to me that A.I. is talking about not thinking it's fair to K-P to be the Serial Killer yet again.
Oh good the Slippery Slope argument.
Because A.I. rerolled once He'll reroll for anything.
He's a game-ruining Madman.
Because if A.I. had Modkilled anybody for lurking the Game would have ended.
The Mafia wasn't overpowered.
We had one massrole block.
That was our only way to roleblock(Besides one Role) ANYTHING.
(-_- )
Daggertooth is quite clearly bashing A.I. for posting "hidden inception level messages"
Do you realize that from Day 1, the Mafia could have lost the game? Shalako could have been taken out by SIX ROLES before doomsday. The game is a train wreck due to the worst Town play in years.
*cough
Are you kidding?
How is this different from what you were bashing A.I. for doing?
I'll see your strawman and raise you facts.
Veteran mafia Player.
Experienced Mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Experienced Mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Experienced Mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Experienced Mafia Player.
Intermediate Experienced Mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Veteran mafia Player.
Intermediate Experienced Mafia Player.
New Player.
Experienced Mafia Player replacing in for a Player of unknown Experience.
Veteran mafia Player replacing Intermediate Experienced Mafia Player. Replacing Veteran mafia Player
Veteran mafia Player
Intermediate Experienced Mafia Player replacing a Veteran mafia Player
Intermediate Experienced Mafia Player.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Find me a town that can do that and not lose.
While I'm on the subject, the only two scum deaths were SOLELY due to the Cop and SK. Those two people would not have been lynched otherwise.
No, not absurd. You can disagree with it all you like though.
The ice king clarified this about 20 posts ago.
If you have a problem with the family and their ability to interpret nuances, take it up with them.
Incorrect. That's not the issue at hand.
Incorrect. There has always been a rule about tampering and biasing results to disadvantage others. If you believe otherwise then you are mistaken. The question here is if that actually took place. If you think that the issue is something else, then again, you are mistaken.
You don't seem to be understanding the issue at hand here.
I quoted Asian Invasion, that's how. And it has been repeated over and over again throughout the last few posts.
A few are trying to look at it that way. Say that he was talking about the first sentence instead of the last. Reads backwards...doesn't help that he made such statements in the worst way possible.
Yes
That's not how Mafia works.
No. Once again you are mistaken.
You don't seem to understand the issue at hand here, and I say this not to bash or insult you, but because your primary points are not focused on the main issue. I want to make it clear to you and to everyone who wishes to voice their opinion on small aspects of this case. The lurking, the strength of the mafia, implying roles on outside threads...those are small issues that are simply amplified by allegations of bias. You can disagree with those, pull out little nuggets of info line by line, dig out a list and call it evidence, claim that 9 day hiatuses are normal while the game is in day, ...and you can even get me to agree with some of those points. Certainly the ice king did well by clarifying his issue, and if enough people come out to tell me the mafia wasn't over powered, well then I can go along with that.
Doesn't matter because if that's what you are focusing on then you are missing the reason this is a big deal, the reason the contest was nixed. ...And that was because AI stated that he took action based solely on one person and the position he was given. If you want to play with interpreting the statements made by AsianInvasion himself, well you are welcome to it. But I will maintain that the interpretation that flows best, that reads easiest, certainly and clearly states that AI took actions based on clan and nothing else. ...And that is the issue, that is what I've been focused on, that's what you all should be focused on, and that's why the contest was nixed. Interpretation is one thing, but even the hint of result tampering is looked at very seriously.
Now, I've talked to AI and he's given me his Word that what happened was a decision based on multiple factors which included both the repeat position of the SK and the relative experience of the mafia. A decision that was not driven by clan placement. That would be acceptable, and though I've focused primarily on AI's initial statements on this matter, I have no reason to believe that he would lie to my face when asked directly. We Clan Moderators are reopening discussions on weather to nix the contest. There are a few people I need to hunt down to discuss this matter. In the mean time I'd like to hear continued thoughts on the matter from you guys.
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
Where it stands now, the game is a draw. All Clan rep participants have been given 5 out of 9 possible points towards Clan of the Year + 1 for participating. Pending staff discussion of Dt's mastersleuth-level ongoing investigation, that will either stick, or points will be awarded as normal (so please go vote your MVP/LVPs if you haven't. Just in case).
For the record, neither path affects the Called's standing in the Clan of the Year Race (we've been lazy, & this genuinely isn't about Us; see Dt's post above).
& yes I am pressuring Sherlock Daggertooth to get his feet wet in a Basic. He's played IRL
Agreed.
Technically, there's no rule against cyberstalking other players, but...
True. I'd hope I've risen above "ridiculously blatant" mistakes, though.
And I'd also debate some of the "experienced" ones on that list. Quite a few, actually. Now that I look at them properly, all.
You misunderstood. The clan moderators got together and discussed this at length, at which point we unanimously decided to nix the contest. That was two days ago. When I say we are reopening the topic for discussion, I am saying that we have opened up dialog with each other to discuss the possibility of reversing this decision. To nix the contest was a unanimous decision when it was made, and I'd like it to be unanimous if we decide to reverse it. As of yet, not all of us has weighed in on the matter.
The first three Non-AI mafia participants to post following AI's initial statement on this matter all spoke out negatively; Kpaca, Yanni, and DigicoolDad. Only one of those belong to the Called. It was at that point where this topic was brought to my attention. I've reviewed it and you know the conclusion I made. So, a simple scroll back will show that not all the complaints are from the called. Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned this isn't about the called, this is about whether or not a contest was rigged. Whether or not decisions were made solely based on clan. If it was confirmed that bias played a role in this contest then I don't care which clan was targeted or how many clans were targeted, I would nix the contest. It wouldn't matter to me that the clans that benefited from such action wanted to keep their benefits even if it were the majority. These contests are not suppose to be rigged and I take such matters very seriously.
Now as I said above, I've discussed this stuff personally with AI and have no reason to think he'd lie to my face about it. His explanation, and the continued constructive discussion in this thread, is being considered carefully as we discuss reversing our decision to cancel the contest.
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
Emphasis mine.
therein lies an issue in my book. How bout you take it to the Clan Reps, the ones that area actually affected by this and let them decide.
The Family
I second this.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
If the clan moderators are the problem, well then you are in trouble. The Clan Moderator staff doesn't change very often. There is talk about taking on new blood, perhaps something to look forward to in the future.
No. There are allegations of cheating. I will not entertain the thought of putting acceptance of cheating to a public vote.
Although....perhaps council participation shouldn't be completely excluded in such matters. Write up a proposal, let us hear what you have to say.
For my heart had not denied me and I have somewhere to go.
I shall never be a prisoner of steel and glass and stone.
If I leave, I will return again to my Rocky Mountain home.
Moderator Helpdesk
This
The Family