I really wish AI and I had had each others' roles. I had all sorts of schemes for that role but AI never had any interest in claiming at all.
The trouble with "balanced" games is that they're balanced around the idea that there will be a very wide gulf between the skill level of the best player and that of the worst player in a game. That's obviously fine normally, but in a game with as much analytical skill and good mafia habits concentrated in the town as this game had, I was at a loss for how to proceed. I think if you took the same 12 players and gave them 100 games to play, all with traditionally balanced setups, the town would win 99 of them.
It's never occured to me before how dependent the scum is on newbs to win.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I actually had a lot of interest in claiming, PJ, but the day ended much quicker than I anticipated. I was bent on at least claiming untargetability out of the gate so that I could last long enough to come up with something really inventive.
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
I really wish AI and I had had each others' roles. I had all sorts of schemes for that role but AI never had any interest in claiming at all.
The trouble with "balanced" games is that they're balanced around the idea that there will be a very wide gulf between the skill level of the best player and that of the worst player in a game. That's obviously fine normally, but in a game with as much analytical skill and good mafia habits concentrated in the town as this game had, I was at a loss for how to proceed. I think if you took the same 12 players and gave them 100 games to play, all with traditionally balanced setups, the town would win 99 of them.
It's never occured to me before how dependent the scum is on newbs to win.
You don't need newbs to win (though they help), what you need is to create confusion and uncertainty. The problem is some people are better at being scum then others, as each player has a certain playstyle that lends itself to certain roles/alignments.
I really wish AI and I had had each others' roles. I had all sorts of schemes for that role but AI never had any interest in claiming at all.
The trouble with "balanced" games is that they're balanced around the idea that there will be a very wide gulf between the skill level of the best player and that of the worst player in a game. That's obviously fine normally, but in a game with as much analytical skill and good mafia habits concentrated in the town as this game had, I was at a loss for how to proceed. I think if you took the same 12 players and gave them 100 games to play, all with traditionally balanced setups, the town would win 99 of them.
It's never occured to me before how dependent the scum is on newbs to win.
Hmm, that's not necessarily been my experience. If the scum team has extremely high play skill, equal to the town's, it can be really tough for the town to make any headway, because no one is screwing up to get things moving. To a large extent, the town depends on people doing silly things to get conversation started. Manders' frustration at the start of the game, though regrettable, really paved the way for the town to go forward and collect a wealth of accurate behavioral reads. Without her, it would have been far more difficult. Having a lot of high caliber players in the same game simply ups the ante for the performance of each side, I think.
But yeah, we did have a really solid core of townies in this game. There weren't very many mistakes for the mafia to capitalize on, EP's vig on AI was epic, and we analyzed everyone in the game to death, while keeping the vast majority of our role information secret. That typically doesn't happen.
It was pretty textbook, come to think of it. Probably a good model for future towns to follow, if they don't mind all the legwork.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Did you have anything in mind for it as you were creating it/the games were in progress?
Item stealer
Hot-potato Jailer
Target someone at night, that person can't target you for the rest of the game
Night-action-result bus driver
Townie with the big red button from Inheritance in a mini who asked for no clarification about what the button does before pushing it (used at night, goes into effect first thing in the morning)
I think the fact that both games misinterpreted the wording means you should have worded it better
It was intentionally vaguely worded. The slot was originally a vanilla townie and the idea was in the garbage bin but Ged suggested it should take the place of a vanilla townie.
Anaklusmos at one point asked me if it meant there was or wasn't a cop role in the game and I responded with "yes."
The town made some bad lynches and then your stubborn voter got too excited and snap lost in LyLo.
The stubborn voter role was indeed a town "trap" role. Ged and I both agreed that the player with that role shouldn't go any farther than getting a double-vote, or s/he risks being a detriment to the town by being able to single-handedly control the game and make snap decisions without listening to a full day's input. Turns out that's exactly what WoD did.
It was intentionally vaguely worded. The slot was originally a vanilla townie and the idea was in the garbage bin but Ged suggested it should take the place of a vanilla townie.
Anaklusmos at one point asked me if it meant there was or wasn't a cop role in the game and I responded with "yes."
See you are probably better off not including that info if you want it to be vague. You are basically leaving it up to the player to read your mind as to what it means. If you asked me this morning if I thought I was correct in reading my info, I would've said I was 100% certain there was no alignment cop, as I was certain that was what the info said. And you were somewhat non-commital about if my interpretation was correct when I asked, which then meant to me I have to trust my best judgement or else wasting what appeared to be important info.
It reminds me of Sword of Truth Mafia where I single handedly (well for the most part, it was sort of a group effort, but I could've prevented the chimes from winning) lost the game for the town because some extra info in my role PM was vague for my vig shot and made it sound like I died when shooting the chimes, which wasn't what it meant at all (I think I wasn't supposed to shoot my pupil or something).
To a certain extent looking back at it the uncertain info of my role is my only real complaint with this game.
Yay. I think if you take a step back from your play and look at it critically, you'll see what you need to change. You had some good reads, and faking the investigation on GD was bold and paid off. You just need to try and drive lynches with more than force of personality. Also - although you were right about him - it would probably have done you good to get off Tilde and hunt around elsewhere, and come back to him D3 or something: instead you kept at Tilde and changed your vote incidentally. Without some kind of break and fresh analysis, no-one was going to change their mind on Tilde.
Also, you should do less of the "calling the whole scum team" thing. It never works - you only have more than one scum on there when you briefly mentioned me, and that didn't have anything behind it. You just limit yourself into ignoring other people's tells.
Target someone at night, that person can't target you for the rest of the game
Night-action-result bus driver
Townie with the big red button from Inheritance in a mini who asked for no clarification about what the button does before pushing it (used at night, goes into effect first thing in the morning)
I don't know what a hot potato Jailer is, and I wasn't expecting any items. The BRB is a good idea though
I think I just got disheartened when all my obviously, totally broken ideas got shot down. Like "recuit all the town to the mafia"
All my other ideas relied on me being lynched, like "My buddies' kills cannot be stopped Ahahahahaah"
I still wish I'd claimed to be masons with everyone. That would have been fun, I just couldn't find an opportune moment.
My first plan was to channel SoronTheBeast/Taylor from Annorax's Star Trek: "I don't know my role, so I'm going to claim stuff until Seppel says I got it right". I forgot about it at the satrt though and the window closed -_-
Quote from Seppel »
It was intentionally vaguely worded. The slot was originally a vanilla townie and the idea was in the garbage bin but Ged suggested it should take the place of a vanilla townie.
Boo. Vague wording makes townies sad.
Quote from Seppel »
Anaklusmos at one point asked me if it meant there was or wasn't a cop role in the game and I responded with "yes."
***
I just read through this Universe's game, and it was really interesting. Totally different outcome with the scum getting unlucky N1 and being rofl-stomped, but it's interesting that the games still finished 24 hours apart with roughly the same numbers of posts.
I found it intriguing that this game lost a bunch of AP and moved slower, whereas we lost...1 I think? I blame Iso for that mostly
There was also much more Role speculation in Universe A: in B, we pretty much disregarded claims completely, but in A there was all sorts of talk about clearing people through them (although that mostly stopped after Manders died). On the flip side, universe A worked out a lot more of the game, crowned with DYH directly nailing the quote that the Jobie/WoD stubborn vote came from. There was also more worry about the "impossible" aspect of the game, with the whole AI being a Death Millar thing.
Both games got the prevalence of Cyan as a role name pretty quickly, but only ours tried to use that as an advantage. Indeed, only ours tried to break the game through Cyan quotes, which never came up at all in A.
DYH made his investigation restiction really obvious, but iLord just spammed the thread in a totally natural way (even after iLord died, I though he got an investigation every time he got post #100, #200 etc).
Overall, watching the two games unfold was fascinating: The A game full of vets went slowly but destroyed the scum, whereas B churned out 4 days and a daykill in the same time period, with multiple gambits (Iso claiming 50% Cop, Tilde claiming...Cop...Pinky and I both using flase claims at LyLo, WoD claiming responsibility for SO, SO's falseclaim).
The "newer" (although Tilde, Myself, WoD, iLord and SomeOne hardly fall under that definition) players played a much faster and looser game, whereas the "Old Vets" played a more ponderous, metiulous one. I wonder if it is telling or coincidence that the scum won the first and the town the second.
I would be really keen to repeat this experiment of simultaneous games, both with hand picked "vet" games vs "not vet" and with fully random games. I'll move that idea to the discussion thread.
I think the success is a combination of things. In A while it was slower, the slowness wasn't so much because it was slow, but because there were times when various people were unavailable for periods of time. A was more methodical though and despite the pace and analysis was into doing sort of combination hard and gut reads. B seemed more like a fly by your seat where people were using, um, momentum(?) to find scum.
The problem with newer players is a combination were they see players like Seppel or kpaca or DYH come along and do only some grunt work and PBPA and fill in the rest with experience and gut. Then new players say hey I can do this and try to emulate it despite them not having the experience to do this and should really be doing a grinding PBPA and sticking to mostly hard reads until they know what they are doing. I think this is also sort of what we are seeing with recent games where they seem somewhat random and go at an inconsistent and haphazard pace due to many newer players trying to emulate some of the vets, or and there are still the crazy pushers who could care less for hard evidence.
Also when you combine this with the fact many vets are playing less games, retiring (except for DYH who went all Brett Favre on us), and are making up a smaller percentage of the player base due to new players means that there are less vets for new players to pick up good vet habits and understanding why vets do the things they do.
Also it seems like the vets seem to join together as sometimes their will be games of almost all vets and then their will be games with only one or two.
I think the biggest success that this town had was that when one person leading the town stopped posting for one reason or another another would step up with their discussion or analysis. It really made the game move forward with purpose and there was a ton of back and forth on every analysis. As much as ~r complained about people skimming the game, my impression is that there was a lot more reading posts than posting new ones.
As much as I complained about a specific player skimming, yeesh.
You complained about several people skimming. You even said something along the lines of "it seems like many people are skimming" and then listed a few.
Basically the video meant that we, the town, had absolutely no idea what you were saying. Also I am the only one sexy enough in this game to pull off Picard, so...
Well, now you know that I was saying exactly what I should have been saying. It was Seppel's fault none of it made sense to you guys.
Manders' frustration at the start of the game, though regrettable, really paved the way for the town to go forward and collect a wealth of accurate behavioral reads. Without her, it would have been far more difficult. Having a lot of high caliber players in the same game simply ups the ante for the performance of each side, I think.
I said it in the game and I'm saying it now. I'm still really disappointed that you took the opportunity to troll me like you did, Azrael. Yes, you weren't the only one that did so, but it was in poor taste.
If you don't remember what you said, I'll go find it. I saw it just last night. But you said, "If the town win condition isn't in your role PM, what language is it in?"
Yay. I think if you take a step back from your play and look at it critically, you'll see what you need to change. You had some good reads, and faking the investigation on GD was bold and paid off. You just need to try and drive lynches with more than force of personality. Also - although you were right about him - it would probably have done you good to get off Tilde and hunt around elsewhere, and come back to him D3 or something: instead you kept at Tilde and changed your vote incidentally. Without some kind of break and fresh analysis, no-one was going to change their mind on Tilde.
Also, you should do less of the "calling the whole scum team" thing. It never works - you only have more than one scum on there when you briefly mentioned me, and that didn't have anything behind it. You just limit yourself into ignoring other people's tells.
I don't know what a hot potato Jailer is, and I wasn't expecting any items. The BRB is a good idea though
I think I just got disheartened when all my obviously, totally broken ideas got shot down. Like "recuit all the town to the mafia"
All my other ideas relied on me being lynched, like "My buddies' kills cannot be stopped Ahahahahaah"
I still wish I'd claimed to be masons with everyone. That would have been fun, I just couldn't find an opportune moment.
My first plan was to channel SoronTheBeast/Taylor from Annorax's Star Trek: "I don't know my role, so I'm going to claim stuff until Seppel says I got it right". I forgot about it at the satrt though and the window closed -_-
Boo. Vague wording makes townies sad.
***
I just read through this Universe's game, and it was really interesting. Totally different outcome with the scum getting unlucky N1 and being rofl-stomped, but it's interesting that the games still finished 24 hours apart with roughly the same numbers of posts.
I found it intriguing that this game lost a bunch of AP and moved slower, whereas we lost...1 I think? I blame Iso for that mostly
There was also much more Role speculation in Universe A: in B, we pretty much disregarded claims completely, but in A there was all sorts of talk about clearing people through them (although that mostly stopped after Manders died). On the flip side, universe A worked out a lot more of the game, crowned with DYH directly nailing the quote that the Jobie/WoD stubborn vote came from. There was also more worry about the "impossible" aspect of the game, with the whole AI being a Death Millar thing.
Both games got the prevalence of Cyan as a role name pretty quickly, but only ours tried to use that as an advantage. Indeed, only ours tried to break the game through Cyan quotes, which never came up at all in A.
DYH made his investigation restiction really obvious, but iLord just spammed the thread in a totally natural way (even after iLord died, I though he got an investigation every time he got post #100, #200 etc).
Overall, watching the two games unfold was fascinating: The A game full of vets went slowly but destroyed the scum, whereas B churned out 4 days and a daykill in the same time period, with multiple gambits (Iso claiming 50% Cop, Tilde claiming...Cop...Pinky and I both using flase claims at LyLo, WoD claiming responsibility for SO, SO's falseclaim).
The "newer" (although Tilde, Myself, WoD, iLord and SomeOne hardly fall under that definition) players played a much faster and looser game, whereas the "Old Vets" played a more ponderous, metiulous one. I wonder if it is telling or coincidence that the scum won the first and the town the second.
I would be really keen to repeat this experiment of simultaneous games, both with hand picked "vet" games vs "not vet" and with fully random games. I'll move that idea to the discussion thread.
I think what this says is what I've been thinking for awhile now. The newer players have gotten into a habit of trying to end the game as soon as possible and it's hurting the games. Mafia is not about trying to break the game open, but that's what they're trying to make it about.
TFF, why did you vote me? What was going on there?
Oh, when I quoted you and Az there, I was trying to say that I had also just finished doing a full re-read of the game, and then I presented a town-scum list of my results, as best I could.
I didn't quite have you down as scum from my read, it was more like "least likely to be town."
I don't know what a hot potato Jailer is, and I wasn't expecting any items. The BRB is a good idea though
Oh, it was actually a hot-potato roleblock. It was originally part of the mafia's arsenal. You roleblock someone, then the roleblocked person gets to roleblock someone, and the roleblock gets passed around like iLord's radiation ability from Inheritance.[/quote]
Hmm, that's not necessarily been my experience. [snip]
But yeah, we did have a really solid core of townies in this game. There weren't very many mistakes for the mafia to capitalize on, EP's vig on AI was epic, and we analyzed everyone in the game to death, while keeping the vast majority of our role information secret. That typically doesn't happen.
It was pretty textbook, come to think of it. Probably a good model for future towns to follow, if they don't mind all the legwork.
I think it's kind of funny how you say it hasn't been your experience and then explain how it was precisely your experience.
While I think the perfect win was impressive and would be very difficult to reproduce, I do not believe that any combination of three players out of the twelve we had could have actually won this game as scum. I do not believe any combination of three players out the twelve we had could reliably win any game for the scum, barring heavy role interference. Good townie habits are just too hard to deal with.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I said it in the game and I'm saying it now. I'm still really disappointed that you took the opportunity to troll me like you did, Azrael. Yes, you weren't the only one that did so, but it was in poor taste.
I'm sorry you feel that way - getting a rise out of you really wasn't my intent. I didn't want to say this at the time, but those posts were much more for the benefit of the remainder of the thread, than trying to set you off. That, and being pretty delighted at the potential of having either nabbed a scum early, or having a great wagon to get reads off of.
EDIT @ Seps: I thought running both games at once in the twilight zone was a really innovative and enjoyable approach. Letting another twelve players in on a really fun setup that everyone wanted to play in was a great touch. It's one of the things this setup will be remembered for.
EDIT @ Seps: I thought running both games at once in the twilight zone was a really innovative and enjoyable approach. Letting another twelve players in on a really fun setup that everyone wanted to play in was a great touch. It's one of the things this setup will be remembered for.
Thanks!
It was a lot of work on Annorax's part, so send Annorax your thanks for working out the permissions and everything!
It was a lot of work on Annorax's part, so send Annorax your thanks for working out the permissions and everything!
Hey!
You still haven't explained your rationale for my skewed WC.
@ Az: All's well that ends well, I guess? So long as you know I was actually hurt by that statement. Mostly because you know me as well as you do and still said it.
Oh, it was actually a hot-potato roleblock. It was originally part of the mafia's arsenal. You roleblock someone, then the roleblocked person gets to roleblock someone, and the roleblock gets passed around like iLord's radiation ability from Inheritance.
There was a Cat in Order of the Stick that did this; I threw it in Cyan's face even
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Seppel, I have to say, as a returning player, thatyour mafia skillz have improved a ridiculous amount since I was last playing. To me, you started out as a player of Tilde or Deaths_Vampire's calibre - as in, you didn't initally make much sense to me with what you said.
But I've read a few of your games as well as game A & B of this, and I have to say man, your mafia abilities are almost incomparably better than they were the last time I viewed this forum.
With this, you've become a top-caliber mafia mod.
I honestly would never have believed I would be saying this to you a year ago. Great stuff, incredibly entertaining and well balanced games, and sign me up to your next one!
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The trouble with "balanced" games is that they're balanced around the idea that there will be a very wide gulf between the skill level of the best player and that of the worst player in a game. That's obviously fine normally, but in a game with as much analytical skill and good mafia habits concentrated in the town as this game had, I was at a loss for how to proceed. I think if you took the same 12 players and gave them 100 games to play, all with traditionally balanced setups, the town would win 99 of them.
It's never occured to me before how dependent the scum is on newbs to win.
You don't need newbs to win (though they help), what you need is to create confusion and uncertainty. The problem is some people are better at being scum then others, as each player has a certain playstyle that lends itself to certain roles/alignments.
Hmm, that's not necessarily been my experience. If the scum team has extremely high play skill, equal to the town's, it can be really tough for the town to make any headway, because no one is screwing up to get things moving. To a large extent, the town depends on people doing silly things to get conversation started. Manders' frustration at the start of the game, though regrettable, really paved the way for the town to go forward and collect a wealth of accurate behavioral reads. Without her, it would have been far more difficult. Having a lot of high caliber players in the same game simply ups the ante for the performance of each side, I think.
But yeah, we did have a really solid core of townies in this game. There weren't very many mistakes for the mafia to capitalize on, EP's vig on AI was epic, and we analyzed everyone in the game to death, while keeping the vast majority of our role information secret. That typically doesn't happen.
It was pretty textbook, come to think of it. Probably a good model for future towns to follow, if they don't mind all the legwork.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Item stealer
Hot-potato Jailer
Target someone at night, that person can't target you for the rest of the game
Night-action-result bus driver
Townie with the big red button from Inheritance in a mini who asked for no clarification about what the button does before pushing it (used at night, goes into effect first thing in the morning)
It was intentionally vaguely worded. The slot was originally a vanilla townie and the idea was in the garbage bin but Ged suggested it should take the place of a vanilla townie.
Anaklusmos at one point asked me if it meant there was or wasn't a cop role in the game and I responded with "yes."
The stubborn voter role was indeed a town "trap" role. Ged and I both agreed that the player with that role shouldn't go any farther than getting a double-vote, or s/he risks being a detriment to the town by being able to single-handedly control the game and make snap decisions without listening to a full day's input. Turns out that's exactly what WoD did.
Oops.
See you are probably better off not including that info if you want it to be vague. You are basically leaving it up to the player to read your mind as to what it means. If you asked me this morning if I thought I was correct in reading my info, I would've said I was 100% certain there was no alignment cop, as I was certain that was what the info said. And you were somewhat non-commital about if my interpretation was correct when I asked, which then meant to me I have to trust my best judgement or else wasting what appeared to be important info.
It reminds me of Sword of Truth Mafia where I single handedly (well for the most part, it was sort of a group effort, but I could've prevented the chimes from winning) lost the game for the town because some extra info in my role PM was vague for my vig shot and made it sound like I died when shooting the chimes, which wasn't what it meant at all (I think I wasn't supposed to shoot my pupil or something).
To a certain extent looking back at it the uncertain info of my role is my only real complaint with this game.
Live and learn!
>Lynch scum in ly/mylo
>Angel scum ability activated in Twilight
>Scum wins next day
Would that work?
Yay. I think if you take a step back from your play and look at it critically, you'll see what you need to change. You had some good reads, and faking the investigation on GD was bold and paid off. You just need to try and drive lynches with more than force of personality. Also - although you were right about him - it would probably have done you good to get off Tilde and hunt around elsewhere, and come back to him D3 or something: instead you kept at Tilde and changed your vote incidentally. Without some kind of break and fresh analysis, no-one was going to change their mind on Tilde.
Also, you should do less of the "calling the whole scum team" thing. It never works - you only have more than one scum on there when you briefly mentioned me, and that didn't have anything behind it. You just limit yourself into ignoring other people's tells.
I don't know what a hot potato Jailer is, and I wasn't expecting any items. The BRB is a good idea though
I think I just got disheartened when all my obviously, totally broken ideas got shot down. Like "recuit all the town to the mafia"
All my other ideas relied on me being lynched, like "My buddies' kills cannot be stopped Ahahahahaah"
I still wish I'd claimed to be masons with everyone. That would have been fun, I just couldn't find an opportune moment.
My first plan was to channel SoronTheBeast/Taylor from Annorax's Star Trek: "I don't know my role, so I'm going to claim stuff until Seppel says I got it right". I forgot about it at the satrt though and the window closed -_-
Boo. Vague wording makes townies sad.
***
I just read through this Universe's game, and it was really interesting. Totally different outcome with the scum getting unlucky N1 and being rofl-stomped, but it's interesting that the games still finished 24 hours apart with roughly the same numbers of posts.
I found it intriguing that this game lost a bunch of AP and moved slower, whereas we lost...1 I think? I blame Iso for that mostly
There was also much more Role speculation in Universe A: in B, we pretty much disregarded claims completely, but in A there was all sorts of talk about clearing people through them (although that mostly stopped after Manders died). On the flip side, universe A worked out a lot more of the game, crowned with DYH directly nailing the quote that the Jobie/WoD stubborn vote came from. There was also more worry about the "impossible" aspect of the game, with the whole AI being a Death Millar thing.
Both games got the prevalence of Cyan as a role name pretty quickly, but only ours tried to use that as an advantage. Indeed, only ours tried to break the game through Cyan quotes, which never came up at all in A.
DYH made his investigation restiction really obvious, but iLord just spammed the thread in a totally natural way (even after iLord died, I though he got an investigation every time he got post #100, #200 etc).
Overall, watching the two games unfold was fascinating: The A game full of vets went slowly but destroyed the scum, whereas B churned out 4 days and a daykill in the same time period, with multiple gambits (Iso claiming 50% Cop, Tilde claiming...Cop...Pinky and I both using flase claims at LyLo, WoD claiming responsibility for SO, SO's falseclaim).
The "newer" (although Tilde, Myself, WoD, iLord and SomeOne hardly fall under that definition) players played a much faster and looser game, whereas the "Old Vets" played a more ponderous, metiulous one. I wonder if it is telling or coincidence that the scum won the first and the town the second.
I would be really keen to repeat this experiment of simultaneous games, both with hand picked "vet" games vs "not vet" and with fully random games. I'll move that idea to the discussion thread.
The problem with newer players is a combination were they see players like Seppel or kpaca or DYH come along and do only some grunt work and PBPA and fill in the rest with experience and gut. Then new players say hey I can do this and try to emulate it despite them not having the experience to do this and should really be doing a grinding PBPA and sticking to mostly hard reads until they know what they are doing. I think this is also sort of what we are seeing with recent games where they seem somewhat random and go at an inconsistent and haphazard pace due to many newer players trying to emulate some of the vets, or and there are still the crazy pushers who could care less for hard evidence.
Also when you combine this with the fact many vets are playing less games, retiring (except for DYH who went all Brett Favre on us), and are making up a smaller percentage of the player base due to new players means that there are less vets for new players to pick up good vet habits and understanding why vets do the things they do.
Also it seems like the vets seem to join together as sometimes their will be games of almost all vets and then their will be games with only one or two.
TFF, why did you vote me? What was going on there?
Well, now you know that I was saying exactly what I should have been saying. It was Seppel's fault none of it made sense to you guys.
I said it in the game and I'm saying it now. I'm still really disappointed that you took the opportunity to troll me like you did, Azrael. Yes, you weren't the only one that did so, but it was in poor taste.
If you don't remember what you said, I'll go find it. I saw it just last night. But you said, "If the town win condition isn't in your role PM, what language is it in?"
I think what this says is what I've been thinking for awhile now. The newer players have gotten into a habit of trying to end the game as soon as possible and it's hurting the games. Mafia is not about trying to break the game open, but that's what they're trying to make it about.
It's disheartening.
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Oh, when I quoted you and Az there, I was trying to say that I had also just finished doing a full re-read of the game, and then I presented a town-scum list of my results, as best I could.
I didn't quite have you down as scum from my read, it was more like "least likely to be town."
Oh, it was actually a hot-potato roleblock. It was originally part of the mafia's arsenal. You roleblock someone, then the roleblocked person gets to roleblock someone, and the roleblock gets passed around like iLord's radiation ability from Inheritance.[/quote]
I think it's kind of funny how you say it hasn't been your experience and then explain how it was precisely your experience.
While I think the perfect win was impressive and would be very difficult to reproduce, I do not believe that any combination of three players out of the twelve we had could have actually won this game as scum. I do not believe any combination of three players out the twelve we had could reliably win any game for the scum, barring heavy role interference. Good townie habits are just too hard to deal with.
Take it for the compliment it is.
Well, I would hate to be accused of scoffing at a good compliment.
I'm sorry you feel that way - getting a rise out of you really wasn't my intent. I didn't want to say this at the time, but those posts were much more for the benefit of the remainder of the thread, than trying to set you off. That, and being pretty delighted at the potential of having either nabbed a scum early, or having a great wagon to get reads off of.
EDIT @ Seps: I thought running both games at once in the twilight zone was a really innovative and enjoyable approach. Letting another twelve players in on a really fun setup that everyone wanted to play in was a great touch. It's one of the things this setup will be remembered for.
I'm sure he meant "...except for Az"
Thanks!
It was a lot of work on Annorax's part, so send Annorax your thanks for working out the permissions and everything!
Hey!
You still haven't explained your rationale for my skewed WC.
@ Az: All's well that ends well, I guess? So long as you know I was actually hurt by that statement. Mostly because you know me as well as you do and still said it.
But I still you.
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It happened to Cyan at one point.
I want to say Battle Royale, because he thought he was a mason but he was in fact mafia who outed his buddies, but I know there was a better example.
Actually, I'm surprised I wasn't.
What's up with that, Seppel! As many times as I've butted heads with Cyan, you couldn't come up with something?
Cyan Jr resents that remark
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Well it's a good thing I didn't include it!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
But I've read a few of your games as well as game A & B of this, and I have to say man, your mafia abilities are almost incomparably better than they were the last time I viewed this forum.
With this, you've become a top-caliber mafia mod.
I honestly would never have believed I would be saying this to you a year ago. Great stuff, incredibly entertaining and well balanced games, and sign me up to your next one!