Arcadic, are you saying that only scum end the RVS? Or rather, more often than not?
I'm saying that the scum usually end the RVS in such a manner as pinky has. Or at least in the games i have played on this site. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264920
Was the first game i went to. Scum Aqua attempts to shoot down the RVS by voting someone for a reason.
Debatable which actually ended it, but the back and forth between scum and town here ended the RVS for sure. I consider Eco's continuation of it to be the catalyst that ends it, not the joke. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291650
The point being, scum have more reasons to cast unreasonable doubt early and i think pinky's post shows he complete willingness to do that.
Pinky, i'm not going to go over this again. Your actions are not insigificant. The actions you initially questioned are. Big difference.
When I say I called him out I'm talking about my question to you, Eco and Arcadic to explain your votes.
Ah, I totally forgot about that.
Quote from pinky »
As for the bold. I'm trying to understand your view on it. I noted you commented to arcadic and myself in this back and forth. You made points to him about me and me about him. I wonder where you stand on the issue.
Both cases are weak. Yours because it equates a weak attack with scumminess, and his because it equates weak logic with malicious intent.
Quote from pinky »
I have. One game a player voted with a smiley face and a player that was town called him on being fake.
Player was scum. Weird thing for me because when I saw it I thought that seemed like such crap, but since then I pay more attention to RVS.
Again with the anecdotes
Do you truly believe he could consistently accomplish the same feat, or that the tell he noted was valid? For example, let's say that I believe that a player is scum because he had a grammatical error in his first post. If that player does happen to be scum, does it mean that my nonsensical argument is legitimate?
Quote from pinky »
You said as much about yourself. How do you know that everyone is the same?
Everyone need not be the same, but I'm providing rationales that could easily be generalized to every player. Everyone could have a lazy or uninspired moment.
Quote from pinky »
Lets say as an example: I see iLord in a game and he makes an RVS vote and is humorous in that game and in the next game he votes for no reason.
I would wonder in my mind why he was able to be humorous in that game and glib in this game.
That's meta, I know but it's still something I would be thinking of in my head.
I have full faith that you, in your head, could come up with a number of explanations far more likely than "he has something to hide?"
Quote from Arcadic »
Its a null-tell.
My point exactly.
Quote from Arcadic »
Look at the interactions again town. Pinky clearly paints 3 players as scummy for things people do in every game regardless of alignment. The only reason she's pushing on me is because i found her actions scummy, whereas the others brushed it off initially as null. The little bit of town pinky i know isn't that rash and impulsive with such a claim.
Here's how I interpreted this:
- pinky sees people voting randomly and questions them because they're not contributing to the game.
- Some people point out flaws in her reasoning, others support it. Arcadic in particular found her actions malicious.
- pinky accuses Arcadic both to defend her own position and to challenge his weak attack.
I don't see anything in this exchange that's particularly indicative of alignment.
Quote from Iso »
Once again, it's more because I have a stronger scum read on Anak, ~, and iLord. Plus I don't see any variation between this and town Arcadic.
Have you played with either scum or town Arcadic?
Quote from pinky »
I explain my reasoning and my view on it, just like iLord explain his reasoning and his view on the opposite. I see why he felt and voted the way he did.
Whether he got my reason I don't know.
This exactly why I feel every post you make is spinning everything said by me as scummy.
In practice, the bolded is practiced heavily by townies and scum alike.
Quote from pinky »
Iso and myself just brought up examples of town catching scum with RVS. You have examples of scum doing the opposite? Because right now all I see is words without evidence.
Again, having a few anecdotes does not constitute evidence. There's lots of words without evidence in Mafia, and we must often rely upon reason.
I'm saying that the scum usually end the RVS in such a manner as pinky has. Or at least in the games i have played on this site. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264920
Was the first game i went to. Scum Aqua attempts to shoot down the RVS by voting someone for a reason.
Debatable which actually ended it, but the back and forth between scum and town here ended the RVS for sure. I consider Eco's continuation of it to be the catalyst that ends it, not the joke. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291650
The point being, scum have more reasons to cast unreasonable doubt early and i think pinky's post shows he complete willingness to do that.
Pinky, i'm not going to go over this again. Your actions are not insigificant. The actions you initially questioned are. Big difference.
This reads a lot like you made a conclusion, then, when prompted, found evidence to support it. I mean the RVS of those games was almost a year ago. That hardly would've been the first thing that went through your mind when you saw Pinky's post.
The point being, scum have more reasons to cast unreasonable doubt early and i think pinky's post shows he complete willingness to do that.
Pinky, i'm not going to go over this again. Your actions are not insigificant. The actions you initially questioned are. Big difference.
Unreasonable doubt early? Seriously?
In Agatha Christy I went after DoubleX for replacing out pregame citing scum motivation for doing so. You know who attacked me for that. Scum.
Don't give me this song and dance about unreasonable. I've already explained my reasoning. Just because you either choose to ignore it or hope that others do doesn't mean jack to me.
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Do you truly believe he could consistently accomplish the same feat, or that the tell he noted was valid? For example, let's say that I believe that a player is scum because he had a grammatical error in his first post. If that player does happen to be scum, does it mean that my nonsensical argument is legitimate?
It had to come from somewhere. It's not like the player you pointed it out was talking out of there ass.
Granted once that player has been called out they know as scum not to do it again. But they were caught and their will always be another player out there that can get caught on the same thing later.
In practice, the bolded is practiced heavily by townies and scum alike.
So null
unvote
I'm going to reevaluate a few things, but I feel like iLord's comment is logical. I have a tendancy of getting defensive especially after Agatha Christy when i had scum attacking me and my views before. I also have a tendancy to tunnel on someone and forget to take a step back and see if I'm going crazy.
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It had to come from somewhere. It's not like the player you pointed it out was talking out of there ass.
Granted once that player has been called out they know as scum not to do it again. But they were caught and their will always be another player out there that can get caught on the same thing later.
In the context of my example and with all due respect to the player, yes, I do believe he's pulling it out of his ass.
What about her gut are you /barning? Her vote on me or her questions about RVS votes?
First of all, you asked me this question in a quite scummy way. I'm not barning her for either the fact that she voted you, or her questions about RVS votes. It's not really about her at all. It's more about the way that you've way over-reacted to her scorn for the RVS, (which I myself share), accused her of backpedalling when there was quite clearly nothing of the sort, and even accused her of being scum looking for an easy lynch. Ironically, it's your vote on her that looks like opportunistic scum looking for an easy lynch, to me.
I fail to see the town motivation for the questioning of normal RVS votes. Your push for real content and reasoning doesn't fit with the nature of the gamestate. You actually seem to think that our votes are there for a reason, or you want to make others think that they are, when in fact there is nothing there.
Again, misrepresentation, you're trying to impose a mindset onto her, which as a tell about your alignment could go either opportunistic scum or overenthusiastic town, but either way - what she did here is not a tell, and it's not helping, please cut it out.
I'm saying that the scum usually end the RVS in such a manner as pinky has. Or at least in the games i have played on this site. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264920
Was the first game i went to. Scum Aqua attempts to shoot down the RVS by voting someone for a reason.
Debatable which actually ended it, but the back and forth between scum and town here ended the RVS for sure. I consider Eco's continuation of it to be the catalyst that ends it, not the joke. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291650
The point being, scum have more reasons to cast unreasonable doubt early and i think pinky's post shows he complete willingness to do that.
Pinky, i'm not going to go over this again. Your actions are not insigificant. The actions you initially questioned are. Big difference.
I disagree. I think it's all in playstyle. I tend to try to end the RVS early to see what reactions people have to what I do. I don't feel the doubt pinky was casting on iLord is unreasonable. I have explained why. If you think it's not a valid point, please address which parts of it you disagree with. And on that note, town have every right to ask people they think are scum loaded questions.
Do you truly believe he could consistently accomplish the same feat, or that the tell he noted was valid? For example, let's say that I believe that a player is scum because he had a grammatical error in his first post. If that player does happen to be scum, does it mean that my nonsensical argument is legitimate?
Sorry to answer something addressed to someone else, but correlation does not imply causation. Grammatical errors have little to do with the state of the game, nor do they reveal much about a person's alignment (making them null tells), whereas a person's ACTIONS, such as leaving out a reason to vote in the RVS or ending the RVS, may certainly be more indicative of alignment. If someone consistently had a grammatical error in their first post when they were scum, then I could see a basis for that as a scum tell, but being that that's not the case, and behavior is more telling than grammatical errors (:rolleyes:), I am inclined to disagree with this example. However, worth noting is that it is a slight scum tell to paint somebody's argument as illegitimate by making a ridiculous example as you have. Just something worth noting.
Quote from iLord »
Have you played with either scum or town Arcadic?
The two games I am/was in with Arcadic are ongoing.
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Sorry to answer something addressed to someone else, but correlation does not imply causation. Grammatical errors have little to do with the state of the game, nor do they reveal much about a person's alignment (making them null tells), whereas a person's ACTIONS, such as leaving out a reason to vote in the RVS or ending the RVS, may certainly be more indicative of alignment. If someone consistently had a grammatical error in their first post when they were scum, then I could see a basis for that as a scum tell, but being that that's not the case, and behavior is more telling than grammatical errors (), I am inclined to disagree with this example. However, worth noting is that it is a slight scum tell to paint somebody's argument as illegitimate by making a ridiculous example as you have. Just something worth noting.
Indeed, my point is that correlation does not imply causation: just because a player did not make a clever random vote in a game and ended up being scum does not mean that the player did not make such a vote because he is scum.
Perhaps not, but you understand my point, yes? More can be derived from lack of explanation for a random vote, even jokingly, than a grammatical error.
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I disagree. I think it's all in playstyle. I tend to try to end the RVS early to see what reactions people have to what I do. I don't feel the doubt pinky was casting on iLord is unreasonable. I have explained why. If you think it's not a valid point, please address which parts of it you disagree with. And on that note, town have every right to ask people they think are scum loaded questions.
Town has the right to do pretty much whatever they want. Not all actions contribute significantly towards scumhunting.
Perhaps not, but you understand my point, yes? More can be derived from lack of explanation for a random vote, even jokingly, than a grammatical error.
Of course. I was merely using the example of a grammatical error to highlight the folly of immediately associating correlation with causation.
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I can appreciate your stance on meta, but I will use it where I feel it is suitable.
I think I replaced out of Star Trek - due to not being able to keep up. I certainly don't recall anything specific about him in that game, either way.
And where you used it is an example of where it's "unsuitable". You used it to try and dismiss/discredit my vote on Arcadic. I'd say it was dodgy, coming from any player that isn't you.
And where you used it is an example of where it's "unsuitable". You used it to try and dismiss/discredit my vote on Arcadic. I'd say it was dodgy, coming from any player that isn't you.
Then we can agree to disagree on whether or not it was suitable. Why am I the exception to it being dodgy?
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Unreasonable doubt early? Seriously?
In Agatha Christy I went after DoubleX for replacing out pregame citing scum motivation for doing so. You know who attacked me for that. Scum.
I cannot remember the name of the fallacy here.
Either way, you're taking an isolated incident (in a Basic, no less) and applying it everywhere. The exception does not make the rule.
But why does that make him town? Just because they're scummier than him does not make him town.
My point is not of scumminess, but of scum. If I feel I've found 3 scum in a game where it is highly improbable that there are more than 3 scum, then logically speaking, everybody else would be town.
Quote from Cyouni »
You mind expanding on that meta? Exactly what aspects of his behaviour are similar to his town game, and how are they not shown in his scum game?
Arcadic will absolutely fling any kind of bull**** he can and see where it sticks as scum and lurk more profoundly. This game, he is actively contributing, and while he may be incorrectly based on his views of pinky's motives, it does not reek of opportunistic scum, simply of a misunderstanding.
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Certainly. If a townie asks scum a loaded question, and the scum answers, they have dug the first spadeful of their own grave.
If a townie asks anyone a loaded question, and that player answers, they have "dug the first spadeful of their own grave." I don't see how that contributes to discerning scum.
If a townie asks anyone a loaded question, and that player answers, they have "dug the first spadeful of their own grave." I don't see how that contributes to discerning scum.
Because if a player consistently acts scummy, enough to warrant a lynch, it will contribute to their case. If a player exhibits consistent town behavior, then it can read as null in light of that.
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Because if a player consistently acts scummy, enough to warrant a lynch, it will contribute to their case. If a player exhibits consistent town behavior, then it can read as null in light of that.
Contributing to their case is not the same of figuring out whether or not they're scum. It's difficult, by definition, for answered loaded questions to make anyone look good, regardless of alignment.
But once again, if they're scum, it's a point against them. If they're town, it's null. It can only be but so bad for a member of the town. It is more trouble for the scum. Less so for town.
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How is this different from Arcadic in any other game?
The fact that this is all you had to say, at the time, means, to me, that you can't fathom how anything other than analysis of his metagame could have factored into my vote.
Well, stuff other than metagame analysis is a valid scumhunting tool, too, whether you acknowledge it, or not.
There's a general assumption, and tone, in a lot of your posts, that what you believe or think about any given situation, has more merit than what other players think.
So once again, I ask: please put away your trumpet.
But once again, if they're scum, it's a point against them. If they're town, it's null. It can only be but so bad for a member of the town. It is more trouble for the scum. Less so for town.
I'll rephrase my question, since it appears you are pointedly avoiding it.
How can you differentiate between a scum and town reaction to a loaded question?
Exhibit A - discounting my vote on Arcadic, dismissively replying to it: The fact that this is all you had to say, at the time, means, to me, that you can't fathom how anything other than analysis of his metagame could have factored into my vote.
You misunderstand my motives for asking. I was asking you to provide an example of how his behavior is different from any other game where he does that in. That doesn't mean I'm discrediting your argument. I'm asking because I wanted you to provide more reasoning. And you did.
Quote from Wrath_of_DoG »
Well, stuff other than metagame analysis is a valid scumhunting tool, too, whether you acknowledge it, or not.
Really? Thank you for the enlightenment, I had no idea that was not the only legitimate scumhunting tactic. I'll take notes.
Quote from Wrath_of_DoG »
There's a general assumption, and tone, in a lot of your posts, that what you believe or think about any given situation, has more merit than what other players think.
So once again, I ask: please put away your trumpet.
I am confident in my reads in most games. If people weren't so quick and eager to discount what I can bring to the game (said Iso, looking very pointedly around), I wouldn't feel the need to speak so brashly. I will wave my trumpet around as I please.
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Because town players are just inherently smarter than scum players, right?
Negative. In the case of scum doing it, it's null.
Quote from Wrath_of_DoG »
That is just patently, blatantly, ridiculous, and is exactly why I discount a lot of tells you make.
You're absolutely incorrect about my play, then, and I don't see why you aren't taking into consideration that context is absolutely relevant, which I harp on all the time.
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To be explicit, I was originally only allowed to speak in quotes or copy/pasting complete posts from Cyan, and not editing anyone's posts I quoted in this thread. I was told not to post multiple !'s as I did in that one post.
I was only allowed to vote for players Cyan had ever voted for. So, off the top of my head, not Iso or Pinky.
I was voting to demonstrate I can vote, since my previous vote wasn't counted by Seppelmod.
Negative. In the case of scum doing it, it's null.
I'm going to go with WoD on this one. Here's basically how this discussion went:
Iso: Townies have the right to use loaded questions. iLord: How do loaded questions help in scumhunting? Iso: If a scum answers one, it makes him look worse. iLord: Doesn't it make townies look worse as well? Iso: It depends on context, but noticing the question is loaded is a town tell. WoD: Why is town more likely to notice a loaded question? Iso: If a townie notices it, it's a town tell. If a scum notices it, it's a null tell.
Followed by an immediate "Let's change the subject"? Maybe I should point out what GD said his PR was (my bolding for emphasis) :
Grasping at straws to paint me as scummy. If I had given him the PR, why would I have said anything about it? Moreover, why would I remove it? Why not just move on day by day, handing out the PR to everybody, making it impossible for me to lose if I were scum? Eco hasn't posted in a day or two, I wanted to hear what he had to say.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Vote: Iso.
Classic OMGUS. You're afraid, Tilde. You reek of scum and I'm not letting that rest any time soon.
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I'm going to go with WoD on this one. Here's basically how this discussion went:
Iso: Townies have the right to use loaded questions. iLord: How do loaded questions help in scumhunting? Iso: If a scum answers one, it makes him look worse. iLord: Doesn't it make townies look worse as well? Iso: It depends on context, but noticing the question is loaded is a town tell. WoD: Why is town more likely to notice a loaded question? Iso: If a townie notices it, it's a town tell. If a scum notices it, it's a null tell.
Iso, you're not making a lot of sense.
*Shrugs* Motive detection, mindset detection, and context are all relevant, especially when you line up that player's play through the game next to the rest of their actions. I'm saying it's a null tell for town and a scum tell for scum because, frankly, that's the truth of the matter.
Quote from iLord »
I have no idea what Tilde is ranting about.
The tl;dr version is that Tilde is scum and knows I can get him lynched if I stay alive past the first day.
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*Shrugs* Motive detection, mindset detection, and context are all relevant, especially when you line up that player's play through the game next to the rest of their actions. I'm saying it's a null tell for town and a scum tell for scum because, frankly, that's the truth of the matter.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe there's any reasonable way of evaluating an unwitting response to a loaded question. By the term "loaded," they're designed to make the responder look bad. No doubt minute behavioral differences exist, but they're far beyond our capacity to detect.
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Grasping at straws to paint me as scummy. If I had given him the PR, why would I have said anything about it? Moreover, why would I remove it? Why not just move on day by day, handing out the PR to everybody, making it impossible for me to lose if I were scum? Eco hasn't posted in a day or two, I wanted to hear what he had to say.
Am I really grasping at straws? Your first post in this game:
I've brought no role information into the thread, only that I have a role. And I've made ganderin_dan able to speak. Which means communicating with him will be much easier, and far more beneficial to the town, regardless of his alignment. What did I have to lose from stopping possible future WIFOM against me?
It's WIFOM if you're responsible for GD's PR in the first place.
Then you've got the loaded questions...
Finally, you shout OMGUS at me for seriously questioning you.
Put it all together, and Iso's looking awful scummy right now.
Am I really grasping at straws? Your first post in this game:
Is that not blatant ?
I'm looking to break open the game.
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Later, right after Ganderin used his multi exclamation point...
implies that you knew Ganderin wasn't supposed to be able to do that.
Uhh, so you're taking my joke completely out of context? Did you miss the "/Cyan" immediately after that in the post?
Quote from ~Tilde~ »
Then there's this:
It's WIFOM if you're responsible for GD's PR in the first place.
Then you've got the loaded questions...
Finally, you shout OMGUS at me for seriously questioning you.
Put it all together, and Iso's looking awful scummy right now.
*I didn't give dan the PR. It was an ability he started with, as he stated.
*I haven't been asking loaded questions. I addressed the matter of the issue of the loaded questions. You are once again looking for any excuse to paint me as scum because you're afraid of me, Tilde.
*I shouted OMGUS at you for voting me for:
**Not reading
**Attempting to paint me scummy with malicious intent
**Taking things out of context
**Reactionary voting to my vote on you.
*Put it all together, and Tilde's looking awfully scummy right now.
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I think I replaced out of Star Trek - due to not being able to keep up. I certainly don't recall anything specific about him in that game, either way.
And where you used it is an example of where it's "unsuitable". You used it to try and dismiss/discredit my vote on Arcadic. I'd say it was dodgy, coming from any player that isn't you.
Actually i was referring to Conflux, where i thought you replaced out but died n1 instead.
Its simple. You don't say your doing something for reactions and expect good reactions. I would believe pinky did it for reactions if he didn't already say they were scummy in that post. It dilutes the probable results of the research. Anyone is more likely to answer in a genuine way when the question isn't loaded with a pre-conceived notion.
Let me use an analogy to get this across. You and me are going to get ice-cream. I ask you: Do you like Chocolate? I hate people who like chocolate. What ice-cream is your favorite? Your sure as hell gonna think about responding instead of providing a genuine answer. Simply asking What ice-cream is your favorite? will produce a more genuine and readable response.
Arcadic will absolutely fling any kind of bull**** he can and see where it sticks as scum and lurk more profoundly. This game, he is actively contributing, and while he may be incorrectly based on his views of pinky's motives, it does not reek of opportunistic scum, simply of a misunderstanding.
I have 0 games completed with you right? So, what completed game did you read to come to this conclusion?
I'm going to go with WoD on this one. Here's basically how this discussion went:
Iso: Townies have the right to use loaded questions. iLord: How do loaded questions help in scumhunting? Iso: If a scum answers one, it makes him look worse. iLord: Doesn't it make townies look worse as well? Iso: It depends on context, but noticing the question is loaded is a town tell. WoD: Why is town more likely to notice a loaded question? Iso: If a townie notices it, it's a town tell. If a scum notices it, it's a null tell.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
~Tidle~: As far as I can see, Tilde is being Tilde. Forget Cyan's Impossible Mafia, we should run Tilde's Possible Mafia, where all of Tilde's completely ludicrous ideas come true and ruin everything for everyone. Tilde spouting complete rubbish is pretty much the nullest tell in the forum, and therefore I don't see anything terribly scummy coming from him.
Iso: Iso is coming across as very self confident indeed. While he may well be God's gift to mafia, I'm not going to be following his assertions without evidence. Also, on the whole "loaded questions" topic, Iso seems to be saying that only town make Town tells and only scum make scum tells. This is patently false, and claiming that something is only a tell if the committer has a certain alignment is likewise absurd.
I would also note that virtually all of Iso's self-proclaimed successes have come from Basic games, which are not a fantastic stick against which to measure oneself.
Still, I don't find Iso's actions those of scum, and he at least looks like he's trying to scumhunt, which puts in the town camp for now.
iLord: I really like him for town. His thoughts are very logical and sound, and he seems to have his head screwed on correctly.
I have more to say (specifically about Arcadic and Pinky's Brain), but I'm done for tonight. I'll post again tomorrow sometime.
*Shrugs* Motive detection, mindset detection, and context are all relevant, especially when you line up that player's play through the game next to the rest of their actions. I'm saying it's a null tell for town and a scum tell for scum because, frankly, that's the truth of the matter.
So if you think they're scum, they're still scum. If you think they're town, nothing.
You're not really making any sense as to how that distinguishes town from scum.
Its simple. You don't say your doing something for reactions and expect good reactions. I would believe pinky did it for reactions if he didn't already say they were scummy in that post. It dilutes the probable results of the research. Anyone is more likely to answer in a genuine way when the question isn't loaded with a pre-conceived notion.
Let me use an analogy to get this across. You and me are going to get ice-cream. I ask you: Do you like Chocolate? I hate people who like chocolate. What ice-cream is your favorite? Your sure as hell gonna think about responding instead of providing a genuine answer. Simply asking What ice-cream is your favorite? will produce a more genuine and readable response.
*Shrugs* Motive detection, mindset detection, and context are all relevant, especially when you line up that player's play through the game next to the rest of their actions. I'm saying it's a null tell for town and a scum tell for scum because, frankly, that's the truth of the matter.
You see, now this is what I'm talking about, Iso. Just because you say something is true, doesn't make it so.
You'd probably become a better Mafia player if you'd listen to vets like Ecophagy and iLord. They are both very good players.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
~Tidle~: As far as I can see, Tilde is being Tilde. Forget Cyan's Impossible Mafia, we should run Tilde's Possible Mafia, where all of Tilde's completely ludicrous ideas come true and ruin everything for everyone. Tilde spouting complete rubbish is pretty much the nullest tell in the forum, and therefore I don't see anything terribly scummy coming from him.
My thoughts exactly :p.
iLord: I really like him for town. His thoughts are very logical and sound, and he seems to have his head screwed on correctly.
You're going to have to explain yourself a little bit more here. Logic isn't solely within the capacity of townies.
Quote from WoD »
You'd probably become a better Mafia player if you'd listen to vets like Ecophagy and iLord. They are both very good players.
While it's very flattering, I feel obligated to note that the part about me is patently untrue. There's a world of difference between being logical and being able to find scum, and I have never demonstrated any recognizable competency in the latter :p.
I'm saying that the scum usually end the RVS in such a manner as pinky has. Or at least in the games i have played on this site.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264920
Was the first game i went to. Scum Aqua attempts to shoot down the RVS by voting someone for a reason.
Debatable which actually ended it, but the back and forth between scum and town here ended the RVS for sure. I consider Eco's continuation of it to be the catalyst that ends it, not the joke.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=291650
The point being, scum have more reasons to cast unreasonable doubt early and i think pinky's post shows he complete willingness to do that.
Pinky, i'm not going to go over this again. Your actions are not insigificant. The actions you initially questioned are. Big difference.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
Ah, I totally forgot about that.
Both cases are weak. Yours because it equates a weak attack with scumminess, and his because it equates weak logic with malicious intent.
Again with the anecdotes
Do you truly believe he could consistently accomplish the same feat, or that the tell he noted was valid? For example, let's say that I believe that a player is scum because he had a grammatical error in his first post. If that player does happen to be scum, does it mean that my nonsensical argument is legitimate?
Everyone need not be the same, but I'm providing rationales that could easily be generalized to every player. Everyone could have a lazy or uninspired moment.
I have full faith that you, in your head, could come up with a number of explanations far more likely than "he has something to hide?"
My point exactly.
Here's how I interpreted this:
- pinky sees people voting randomly and questions them because they're not contributing to the game.
- Some people point out flaws in her reasoning, others support it. Arcadic in particular found her actions malicious.
- pinky accuses Arcadic both to defend her own position and to challenge his weak attack.
I don't see anything in this exchange that's particularly indicative of alignment.
Have you played with either scum or town Arcadic?
In practice, the bolded is practiced heavily by townies and scum alike.
Again, having a few anecdotes does not constitute evidence. There's lots of words without evidence in Mafia, and we must often rely upon reason.
This reads a lot like you made a conclusion, then, when prompted, found evidence to support it. I mean the RVS of those games was almost a year ago. That hardly would've been the first thing that went through your mind when you saw Pinky's post.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Unreasonable doubt early? Seriously?
In Agatha Christy I went after DoubleX for replacing out pregame citing scum motivation for doing so. You know who attacked me for that. Scum.
Don't give me this song and dance about unreasonable. I've already explained my reasoning. Just because you either choose to ignore it or hope that others do doesn't mean jack to me.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
It had to come from somewhere. It's not like the player you pointed it out was talking out of there ass.
Granted once that player has been called out they know as scum not to do it again. But they were caught and their will always be another player out there that can get caught on the same thing later.
So null
unvote
I'm going to reevaluate a few things, but I feel like iLord's comment is logical. I have a tendancy of getting defensive especially after Agatha Christy when i had scum attacking me and my views before. I also have a tendancy to tunnel on someone and forget to take a step back and see if I'm going crazy.
mafia win/lose record
town (12) 6/6
mafia (2) 2/0
Cult (1) 1/0
3rd party (0) 0/0
mafia record
Also known at mafiascum as farside22
In the context of my example and with all due respect to the player, yes, I do believe he's pulling it out of his ass.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Plus, as I said to Iso, it isn't even relevant to me. I still don't care. I put the "meh" into "metagaming".
It's your play this game that I care about.
I disagree. I think it's all in playstyle. I tend to try to end the RVS early to see what reactions people have to what I do. I don't feel the doubt pinky was casting on iLord is unreasonable. I have explained why. If you think it's not a valid point, please address which parts of it you disagree with. And on that note, town have every right to ask people they think are scum loaded questions.
Sorry to answer something addressed to someone else, but correlation does not imply causation. Grammatical errors have little to do with the state of the game, nor do they reveal much about a person's alignment (making them null tells), whereas a person's ACTIONS, such as leaving out a reason to vote in the RVS or ending the RVS, may certainly be more indicative of alignment. If someone consistently had a grammatical error in their first post when they were scum, then I could see a basis for that as a scum tell, but being that that's not the case, and behavior is more telling than grammatical errors (:rolleyes:), I am inclined to disagree with this example. However, worth noting is that it is a slight scum tell to paint somebody's argument as illegitimate by making a ridiculous example as you have. Just something worth noting.
The two games I am/was in with Arcadic are ongoing.
In all fairness, so did I.
I do believe he's referring to Star Trek.
I can appreciate your stance on meta, but I will use it where I feel it is suitable.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Indeed, my point is that correlation does not imply causation: just because a player did not make a clever random vote in a game and ended up being scum does not mean that the player did not make such a vote because he is scum.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Town has the right to do pretty much whatever they want. Not all actions contribute significantly towards scumhunting.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Of course. I was merely using the example of a grammatical error to highlight the folly of immediately associating correlation with causation.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Anyone has the right to do anything they want in this game, that doesn't mean it will benefit the town. That example is of one that would.
Do you understand why it was a terrible example?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would love to hear what role you feel loaded questions can play in scumhunting.
I think it was an excellent example to illustrate the fallacy of pinky's thought process.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
And where you used it is an example of where it's "unsuitable". You used it to try and dismiss/discredit my vote on Arcadic. I'd say it was dodgy, coming from any player that isn't you.
Arcadic (2): Gigas1, Wrath_of_DoG
pinkys_brain (2): iLord, Arcadic
iLord (1): Ecophagy
ganderin_dan (1): ganderin_dan
Not Voting (6): Anaklusmos, Cyouni, Some One, ~Tilde~, Iso, pinkys_brain
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
Certainly. If a townie asks scum a loaded question, and the scum answers, they have dug the first spadeful of their own grave.
Then I'm going to have to strongly disagree and add another notch to your total scum points so far this game.
Then we can agree to disagree on whether or not it was suitable. Why am I the exception to it being dodgy?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You mind expanding on that meta? Exactly what aspects of his behaviour are similar to his town game, and how are they not shown in his scum game?
So let's say they're scum. What would the whole point of that song-and-dance be?
Mind explaining this a little more?
I...what?
How does that work?
Please, explain.
I cannot remember the name of the fallacy here.
Either way, you're taking an isolated incident (in a Basic, no less) and applying it everywhere. The exception does not make the rule.
My point is not of scumminess, but of scum. If I feel I've found 3 scum in a game where it is highly improbable that there are more than 3 scum, then logically speaking, everybody else would be town.
Arcadic will absolutely fling any kind of bull**** he can and see where it sticks as scum and lurk more profoundly. This game, he is actively contributing, and while he may be incorrectly based on his views of pinky's motives, it does not reek of opportunistic scum, simply of a misunderstanding.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If a townie asks anyone a loaded question, and that player answers, they have "dug the first spadeful of their own grave." I don't see how that contributes to discerning scum.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Because if a player consistently acts scummy, enough to warrant a lynch, it will contribute to their case. If a player exhibits consistent town behavior, then it can read as null in light of that.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Contributing to their case is not the same of figuring out whether or not they're scum. It's difficult, by definition, for answered loaded questions to make anyone look good, regardless of alignment.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Well, stuff other than metagame analysis is a valid scumhunting tool, too, whether you acknowledge it, or not.
There's a general assumption, and tone, in a lot of your posts, that what you believe or think about any given situation, has more merit than what other players think.
So once again, I ask: please put away your trumpet.
I'll rephrase my question, since it appears you are pointedly avoiding it.
How can you differentiate between a scum and town reaction to a loaded question?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Hmm... Anak's vote on Iso in post #81 hasn't shown up on any of the official vote counts.
Anak? Have you been bound and gagged?
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
You misunderstand my motives for asking. I was asking you to provide an example of how his behavior is different from any other game where he does that in. That doesn't mean I'm discrediting your argument. I'm asking because I wanted you to provide more reasoning. And you did.
Really? Thank you for the enlightenment, I had no idea that was not the only legitimate scumhunting tactic. I'll take notes.
I am confident in my reads in most games. If people weren't so quick and eager to discount what I can bring to the game (said Iso, looking very pointedly around), I wouldn't feel the need to speak so brashly. I will wave my trumpet around as I please.
Calling out the question on being loaded certainly helps. Otherwise, it's completely up to context and the rest of their actions.
Vote ~Tilde~
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Noticing that the question is loaded makes the player appear more town?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Affirmative.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
That is just patently, blatantly, ridiculous, and is exactly why I discount a lot of tells you make.
Negative. In the case of scum doing it, it's null.
You're absolutely incorrect about my play, then, and I don't see why you aren't taking into consideration that context is absolutely relevant, which I harp on all the time.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Not that I am aware. I think Seppel is just missing it.
Studied all day, took a midterm, worked all night = sleepy time. Will actually post tomorrow.
Arcadic (2): Gigas1, Wrath_of_DoG
pinkys_brain (2): iLord, Arcadic
iLord (1): Ecophagy
ganderin_dan (1): ganderin_dan
Iso (1): Anaklusmos
~Tilde~ (1): Iso
Not Voting (6): Cyouni, Some One, ~Tilde~, pinkys_brain
With 12 alive, it is 7 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Overreact much?
Followed by an immediate "Let's change the subject"? Maybe I should point out what GD said his PR was (my bolding for emphasis) :
Vote: Iso.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
Unvote
I'm going to go with WoD on this one. Here's basically how this discussion went:
Iso: Townies have the right to use loaded questions.
iLord: How do loaded questions help in scumhunting?
Iso: If a scum answers one, it makes him look worse.
iLord: Doesn't it make townies look worse as well?
Iso: It depends on context, but noticing the question is loaded is a town tell.
WoD: Why is town more likely to notice a loaded question?
Iso: If a townie notices it, it's a town tell. If a scum notices it, it's a null tell.
Iso, you're not making a lot of sense.
--------------------------------
I have no idea what Tilde is ranting about.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
Not when malicious is intent is detected.
Grasping at straws to paint me as scummy. If I had given him the PR, why would I have said anything about it? Moreover, why would I remove it? Why not just move on day by day, handing out the PR to everybody, making it impossible for me to lose if I were scum? Eco hasn't posted in a day or two, I wanted to hear what he had to say.
Classic OMGUS. You're afraid, Tilde. You reek of scum and I'm not letting that rest any time soon.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*Shrugs* Motive detection, mindset detection, and context are all relevant, especially when you line up that player's play through the game next to the rest of their actions. I'm saying it's a null tell for town and a scum tell for scum because, frankly, that's the truth of the matter.
The tl;dr version is that Tilde is scum and knows I can get him lynched if I stay alive past the first day.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe there's any reasonable way of evaluating an unwitting response to a loaded question. By the term "loaded," they're designed to make the responder look bad. No doubt minute behavioral differences exist, but they're far beyond our capacity to detect.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Am I really grasping at straws? Your first post in this game:
Is that not blatant ?
Later, right after Ganderin used his multi exclamation point...
implies that you knew Ganderin wasn't supposed to be able to do that.
Then there's this:
It's WIFOM if you're responsible for GD's PR in the first place.
Then you've got the loaded questions...
Finally, you shout OMGUS at me for seriously questioning you.
Put it all together, and Iso's looking awful scummy right now.
Note to self: Your mafia theories are usually wrong, so don't act on them.
I'm looking to break open the game.
Uhh, so you're taking my joke completely out of context? Did you miss the "/Cyan" immediately after that in the post?
*I didn't give dan the PR. It was an ability he started with, as he stated.
*I haven't been asking loaded questions. I addressed the matter of the issue of the loaded questions. You are once again looking for any excuse to paint me as scum because you're afraid of me, Tilde.
*I shouted OMGUS at you for voting me for:
**Not reading
**Attempting to paint me scummy with malicious intent
**Taking things out of context
**Reactionary voting to my vote on you.
*Put it all together, and Tilde's looking awfully scummy right now.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Actually i was referring to Conflux, where i thought you replaced out but died n1 instead.
Its simple. You don't say your doing something for reactions and expect good reactions. I would believe pinky did it for reactions if he didn't already say they were scummy in that post. It dilutes the probable results of the research. Anyone is more likely to answer in a genuine way when the question isn't loaded with a pre-conceived notion.
Let me use an analogy to get this across. You and me are going to get ice-cream. I ask you: Do you like Chocolate? I hate people who like chocolate. What ice-cream is your favorite? Your sure as hell gonna think about responding instead of providing a genuine answer. Simply asking What ice-cream is your favorite? will produce a more genuine and readable response.
I have 0 games completed with you right? So, what completed game did you read to come to this conclusion?
I'll repeat this as well.
/barn. If anything the opposite is true due to the increased information the scum always have.
Yepx1000
You still have yet to show how you can discern it properly.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
It's been a while since I've read it, so I don't recall which game it was. IIRC, Cyan and/or Azrael were in it. I believe Seppel was, too.
When I am presented with such an opportunity, I will. Otherwise, it will have to be an issue dropped for the time being.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
~Tidle~: As far as I can see, Tilde is being Tilde. Forget Cyan's Impossible Mafia, we should run Tilde's Possible Mafia, where all of Tilde's completely ludicrous ideas come true and ruin everything for everyone. Tilde spouting complete rubbish is pretty much the nullest tell in the forum, and therefore I don't see anything terribly scummy coming from him.
Iso: Iso is coming across as very self confident indeed. While he may well be God's gift to mafia, I'm not going to be following his assertions without evidence. Also, on the whole "loaded questions" topic, Iso seems to be saying that only town make Town tells and only scum make scum tells. This is patently false, and claiming that something is only a tell if the committer has a certain alignment is likewise absurd.
I would also note that virtually all of Iso's self-proclaimed successes have come from Basic games, which are not a fantastic stick against which to measure oneself.
Still, I don't find Iso's actions those of scum, and he at least looks like he's trying to scumhunt, which puts in the town camp for now.
iLord: I really like him for town. His thoughts are very logical and sound, and he seems to have his head screwed on correctly.
I have more to say (specifically about Arcadic and Pinky's Brain), but I'm done for tonight. I'll post again tomorrow sometime.
You're not really making any sense as to how that distinguishes town from scum.
Ah, I see what you mean.
You'd probably become a better Mafia player if you'd listen to vets like Ecophagy and iLord. They are both very good players.
Cyouni, it's entirely based upon the rest of the actions of that player.
WoD, on what basis do you find what I am saying to be untrue?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My thoughts exactly :p.
You're going to have to explain yourself a little bit more here. Logic isn't solely within the capacity of townies.
While it's very flattering, I feel obligated to note that the part about me is patently untrue. There's a world of difference between being logical and being able to find scum, and I have never demonstrated any recognizable competency in the latter :p.
My Custom Set: Solescurio
It's blatantly untrue, not based on facts, and you pulled it out of your ass like you do with pretty much everything.