Yes, obviously if you assume that the daykill hits town every time, the daykill is bad. It should be obvious why that assumption is unreasonable. 75% is not 100%.
Let me put it this way: if a vig (day or night) fires three times and hits scum only once (33% success rate), then he's effectively reduced the game from a 9/3 to a 7/2, which is either balanced or slightly in the town's favor.
The way Shalako is playing does not lead me to believe any scum will be caught in the crossfire. Or at least, he doesn't deserve to have his actions validated in such a manner.
*waves to infinis*
Hey, want to weigh in on this, infi?
I love the statistics, good job
However, there are two other factors 1) He doesn't know if he has a daykill and is testing it 2) He wants to make sure his daykill is utilized
It is extremely bad form to Daykill this early, is it valid though? I've argued before any vote on a wagon is the hammer vote and hence a kill. Is the daykill no different? Instead of having to wait for majority the kill is instant. Some people trust their reads way too much. Statistic wise it was a no-no, if you play by gut then it was just not nice.
If he is just testing an ability...Daykill is not the place I would start, I would wait for a hammer situation and then test it. Bad play again.
So in summary, it was a [expletive deleted] move, I wouldn't do it. And doing so is a soft claim. I also said not to mention any parameters for a soft claim and what did I get
Quote from Wuffles II »
What sort of soft claim?
1) Choices given
2) Name
3) Crypto - (apparently these have been judged against the spirit of the game now, thank the lord council almighty )
4) Something else?
If it is option 1 or 2 though, I am cautiously optimistic about this.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
Infi, your "general interest" in soft claim from me was a NO.
I then went on to say "hoooowever, if it is 1) or 2) then a cautious yes."
also, can everyone please from now on assume that no matter what I say, my opinion on Shalako is "his actions make no sense whatsoever on a townie, so he's mafia or SK, as otherwise he is very very bad at this game, and no matter what, unless he lets the town control his ability, he is effectively an SK anyways, so he must die".
I noticed after that my last post was not quite definitive enough in explaining.
I believe he is scum with a powerfully-chosen ability, because if he's town, he's not playing like one. Therefore, he is scum.
Yes, obviously if you assume that the daykill hits town every time, the daykill is bad. It should be obvious why that assumption is unreasonable. 75% is not 100%.
Let me put it this way: if a vig (day or night) fires three times and hits scum only once (33% success rate), then he's effectively reduced the game from a 9/3 to a 7/2, which is either balanced or slightly in the town's favor.
7/2 is a balanced setup, so what you're saying is there's a strong chance he's moving the game along faster than if he kept it in his pants - is the theory on why this is bad sinking in better now?
By picking people off unilaterally, he is putting the town in the fast lane which is not a good thing. The town needs enough information outside of a few random deaths to analyze and his behavior is pretty much completely void regardless of his success rate.
If you like statistics, I ran the odds of various outcomes assuming a 9/3 setup where a daykiller fires randomly at anyone but himself at the start of every Day, the town mislynches every day, mafia win condition is majority vote and mafia get an NK every night but don't kill the daykiller.
In 68.2% of the cases, the town lost after 3 mislynches - the same as if no daykiller existed.
In 18.3% of the cases, the town lost after only 2 mislynches.
And in 13.5% of the cases, the town won outright.
So the daykiller only affects the number of mislynches-till-loss less than a third of the time, and even then has a chance of saving the town from a loss. Statistically, the daykiller only needs to be marginally better than random - on the order of a few percentage points - in order to grant a town advantage.
If Shalako is town it's a 3/11 chance he hits scum, because he is town. 27.2727...% chance of a scum hit, meaning 73.7373...% chance of 3 scum left. That's before the mislynch you're talking about, which is a 3/10 chance he hits scum, or 30%, meaning 70% chance of 3 scum left. Multiply together the two town left probabilities (I don't think this is exactly it but it's the same basic principle and should give us a close enough estimate) there is 51.1615...% chance of 3 scum left.
Statistically, the daykiller only needs to be marginally better than random - on the order of a few percentage points - in order to grant a town advantage.
You see my problem? Shalako's daykill today WAS NOT BETTER THAN AVERAGE. And tomorrow he's killing me, for the best I can fathom, because I let him know exactly what I think of his daykilling bollocks. I make no secret of the fact that nothing in mafia aside from Deaths_Vampire (see Kithkin mafia ) annoys me more than vigs that think they know better than the rest of the group.
The best possible outcome here is that Shalako is town and drunk on his own arrogance. The worst (in my opinion likely) outcome is that he's a scum with an extremely powerful role. Who is drunk on his own power.
By picking people off unilaterally, he is putting the town in the fast lane which is not a good thing.
I used to think that, too. Then I saw Hetalia and Flame Warriors mafia. Stalling and indecision led to burnout and WIFOM saturation. Accelerating a game may not always be a good thing, but it's not always a bad thing either.
EWP: Wuffles, how can you claim that Shalako's daykill was not better than average when you don't know what PF will flip (if he flips at all)?
OH MY GOD ARE YOU SERIOUS? HAVE YOU LISTENED TO NOTHING I HAVE SAID?
HE HAD NO BASIS WHATSOEVER TO SHOOT FLOYD IN THE FIRST PLACE, SO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER FLOYD IS TOWN OR SCUM SHALAKO SHOT HIM FOR NO REASON THEREFORE HIS DAYKILL WAS NOT "BETTER THAN AVERAGE. "
IF FLOYD HAD BEEN SCUMMY IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM PREVIOUSLY THIS WOULD BE DIFFERENT
IF SHALAKO HADN'T FISHED LIKE A MOFO THIS WOULD BE DIFFERENT
BUT YOU CANNOT CLAIM THAT SHALAKO HAD ANY SORT OF "BETTER THAN AVERAGE" BASIS TO SHOOT ANYONE AT THAT STAGE OF THE GAME!
AND STATISTICALLY THERE IS AN 8/11 CHANCE THAT HE KILLED A TOWNIE WITHOUT REASONABLE BASIS. I MAY SUCK AT MATH BUT EVEN I KNOW THAT IS SUB PAR, LOWER THAN AVERAGE CHANCE OF HITTING HIM.
IF FLOYD IS SCUM, THEN THAT STILL DOESNT CHANGE THE FACT THAT SHALAKO KILLED HIM FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN TO SATISFY HIS RAGING INFLAMED PULSING...EGO. AND THAT'S IF HE'S TOWN.
Clear enough? Whew, I think the caps lock key got jammed there a bit.
BUT YOU CANNOT CLAIM THAT SHALAKO HAD ANY SORT OF "BETTER THAN AVERAGE" BASIS TO SHOOT ANYONE AT THAT STAGE OF THE GAME!
He certainly could. Alignment tells start to manifest within a handful of posts after the RVS ends, which it certainly has at this point. I'm not going to claim that he did or did not until I see the mod's post.
AND STATISTICALLY THERE IS AN 8/11 CHANCE THAT HE KILLED A TOWNIE WITHOUT REASONABLE BASIS. I MAY SUCK AT MATH BUT EVEN I KNOW THAT IS SUB PAR, LOWER THAN AVERAGE CHANCE OF HITTING HIM.
*facepalm*
Dude, if you self-admittedly "suck at math", stop trying to argue statistics. Read what I wrote carefully. 8/11 is not, in fact, a lower-than-random chance of hitting a townie in that circumstance. Neither "random" nor "average" are synonymous with 50/50.
He certainly could. Alignment tells start to manifest within a handful of posts after the RVS ends, which it certainly has at this point. I'm not going to claim that he did or did not until I see the mod's post.
He certainly hasn't cited any such claims, which he would have done by now if he had them, surely.
I don't understand the gist of what you are saying re: math but behaviorally there is nothing there that would lead me to believe pink showed any signs of being scum at that or any other stage so far of this game.
Therefore, in my eyes, Shalako's shot
was
completely
random.
Do you understand where I am coming from with this? Behaviorally Shalako simply had no reason to shoot floyd over, say, you or I at that stage.
I'll still be alive you crazy guy trying to get me to spill my role
Yeah, floyd, I hope that this is the case.
I hope that Shalako is just trolling but if not, then I will do my best to see him dead.
Arch, are you trying to say that you think Shalako may have had a valid reason (with your "reads start the moment random voting stops" comment) for daykilling floyd after floyd brushed off Shalako's horrd fishing attempt?
Because I don't see it at all. That's why I am getting a bit frustrated (okay, saying I am a bit frustrated is like saying the twilight franchise is "a bit emotional"), but I reserve the right to play down my reactions this game. I hate AZWOLGers. I HATE THEM.
All of a sudden, Shalako comes out of the crowd with a gun in hand
"My Precioussssss, no one will take my guns from me." he says with a really creepy look in his eyes.
Sensing trouble Pinkfloyd approaches him and tries to take the gun away, but before he can get there Shalako shoots him right in the chest. As pinkfloyd falls over, you all notice a lack of blood coming from him. After a minute, pinkfloyd gets up and dusts himself off, and takes a look under his shirt, revealing the bulletproof vest underneath.
"Well thank god I brought this along," he says as he walks away.
You are like a kid that gets a toy bow and arrow set for the first time and told not to shoot the cat with it. You came into this game with the string pulled back and struck the cat in the side with an arrow.
Lucky the cat is hardened and could withstand the shot, but now you get your brand new toy taken off you and you have been restricted with its use.
I think you aren't town right now but if you are we all learnt that you cannot be trusted with such a powerful role and you need to settle down.
You are like a kid that gets a toy bow and arrow set for the first time and told not to shoot the cat with it. You came into this game with the string pulled back and struck the cat in the side with an arrow.
-Call me crazy, but I'm reading this as you think shal misused a town ability rather than maliciously used a scum ability. -Am I reading that correctly, or am I missing something?
I'm not happy about shal's DK shot, but I think townies tend to fire off excited bad abilities more than scum do. I'd like to hear more of his reasoning though.
Also not liking Wuffles response to the daykill. He's using a bunch of math that depends on shal being town to try to push through a "bad play" policy lynch rather than anything that really points to shal being scum.
-Call me crazy, but I'm reading this as you think shal misused a town ability rather than maliciously used a scum ability. -Am I reading that correctly, or am I missing something?
No what I am saying to him is that if he actually is town he needs to get his act together and actually help because what he just did makes me want to lynch him.
I used to think that, too. Then I saw Hetalia and Flame Warriors mafia. Stalling and indecision led to burnout and WIFOM saturation. Accelerating a game may not always be a good thing, but it's not always a bad thing either.
Yeah! Like when the town lynched correctly twice in a row in Hetalia! That's such a terrible thing!
The length didn't kill the down, it literally came down to overconfidence (by the town's part) in their roles. I don't know why that would sound familiar here - OH WAIT SHALAKO PITCHES A TENT OVER HIS ROLE AGAIN.
Mind you, it means Shal is playing like he's town - but your point is just ignorant when it should not be (Arch was in Hetalia's endgame).
Well that explains pink's post knowing he wouldn't die. I still hate the terrible use of "fishing" though.
@TFF: I think I've called you a "he" for a long time now, so sorry for that then.
Yeah! Like when the town lynched correctly twice in a row in Hetalia! That's such a terrible thing!
The length didn't kill the down, it literally came down to overconfidence (by the town's part) in their roles. I don't know why that would sound familiar here - OH WAIT SHALAKO PITCHES A TENT OVER HIS ROLE AGAIN.
Mind you, it means Shal is playing like he's town - but your point is just ignorant when it should not be (Arch was in Hetalia's endgame).
I disagree with your analysis. I think town burnout played a major role in that game. Were there other factors as well? Yes. But you can't deny that the dragging on of the game diminished everyone's analytical capacity.
I'm not mafia bro I just hate AZWOLGers like you. Aside from my clear hatred for your play today, why are you voting for me? You haven't been able to provide me a single reason why the hell you tried to dayvig someone yet this game.
oookay, after having read the rest of the posts since I went to sleep now
I have had a lot of time to think on this and despite, DESPITE, DESPITE Shalako's terrible play here, he probably is town.
I let my sheer gigantic throbbing...frustration rule me yesterday, and it clouded my read on shalako to an unacceptable extent. There is no better way to make me rage in mafia than a vig that can't keep it in his pants.
However, I am still really curious as to why Shalako's not bringing any hate down from any other players?
He never even provided any reasoning as to why he tried to murder PF.
Even if you don't think it was a scum play, at very least, it WAS terrible. Shalako should have saved the kill for a more appropriate time, and he should have let us use him as a second lynch.
If he keeps this up, and kills me tomorrow, that's fine, it at least confirms him as town or SK. Because no mod is stupid enough to give a mafioso multiple daykills.
Although I do remember a game where the mafia could EITHER daykill OR nightkill, so I will be seriously looking at Shalako come Day 2 if there was no nightkill, and I think you all should too.
Aside from that, though, I'm willing to let Shalako go for now, not because he's not terrible, but because he's probably not mafia. Nobody is ever going to convince me that azwolging vigs should be allowed to roam free though. I've lost two games at least where the townie vig took out multiple power roles and the mafia just ran rampant.
I used to think that, too. Then I saw Hetalia and Flame Warriors mafia. Stalling and indecision led to burnout and WIFOM saturation. Accelerating a game may not always be a good thing, but it's not always a bad thing either.
@ TFF - I see no harm in telling our names - it seals the mafia into any false claims which can be exploited by the town. How could something like that hurt the town? o.O?
@ Toast - did you read Shalako's play from after the time he posted the daykill? Nowhere did he ever imply he was anything but serious? o.O?
@ Archonoid - This game wasn't stalling, nobody was burned out, and nobody had even had time to make scumdar waves when Shalako did that. Ridiculous logic.
@ TFF - I see no harm in telling our names - it seals the mafia into any false claims which can be exploited by the town. How could something like that hurt the town? o.O?
In Flame Warriors, the scum knew they needed to pick off specific named individuals in order to gain significant power.
@ Archonoid - This game wasn't stalling, nobody was burned out, and nobody had even had time to make scumdar waves when Shalako did that. Ridiculous logic.
You're missing the point. You're conflating Shalako's action with the general question of whether azwolging can ever be good. I am describing cases where it can; that doesn't mean Shalako's action in particular was necessarily smart or townie.
In Flame Warriors, the scum knew they needed to pick off specific named individuals in order to gain significant power.You're missing the point. You're conflating Shalako's action with the general question of whether azwolging can ever be good. I am describing cases where it can; that doesn't mean Shalako's action in particular was necessarily smart or townie.
The case you described in flame warriors or the other similar game i didn't and won't read is a completely incorrect analogy.
In either of those situations, it would not be azwolging, because the very mention of a dayvig's plans to kill someone would create plenty of discussion and de-stagnate the game. And even IF the vig was not taking the best option, that is, to use the dayvig as an extra lynch as decided by the town, there would already be plenty (perhaps too much) information available for a dayvig to make an independent, balanced judgement based on scumtells.
But you know, Shalako's actions simply can't be justified by logic like that. It's a total copout, and unlike my math (useless because my stats abilities fail harder than a dog with no legs running a marathon - thanks for pulling me up on that, peeps - I'll stick to behavior over stats from now on! :embarrass:), your comments don't even strike me as useful; it has no relevance to Shalako's actions whatsoever.
AZWOLGing is when a vig arbitrarily kills without townie consent without good reason.
EBWODP - As to your first point regarding the mafia explictly increasing in power when specific roles are killed, I would first like to be clear that I am totally ambivalent regarding mass claims of any sort. There are risks for both the mafia and the town in D1 massclaims of any kind, and so I will go with whatever the majority feels is appropriate. As to your comment regarding flame warriors, I think you should stop using that game as an example to support your points because quite frankly, this is the second time you have tried to justify bad arguments with it.
I reveiwed the setup for flame warriors, and quite frankly, that game was pretty close to a specialty in the complexity of some of the roles and the uniqueness of the setup. This setup I am more than guessing is nothing like that. While the mafia may have some powerful roles, I seriously doubt they are as specialized as you are advising they could be. Tanarin tends toward simpler setups, I believe. Your comments are just fearmongering.
I think you should stop using that game as an example to support your points because quite frankly, this is the second time you have tried to justify bad arguments with it.
What argument did I justify with it this time? You asked how something could hurt the town. I gave an example of how it could hurt the town. I didn't say it must be the case, or even how likely it could be.
Generally, you seem to be consistently assuming that I'm saying something that I am not. You assumed that my comments about azwolging being sometimes justified were a specific defense of Shalako, for example, when I made it explicitly clear that I was not arguing for Shalako specifically. Can you stop making unjustified assumptions about my point and stick to what I actually say?
What argument did I justify with it this time? You asked how something could hurt the town. I gave an example of how it could hurt the town. I didn't say it must be the case, or even how likely it could be.
Generally, you seem to be consistently assuming that I'm saying something that I am not. You assumed that my comments about azwolging being sometimes justified were a specific defense of Shalako, for example, when I made it explicitly clear that I was not arguing for Shalako specifically. Can you stop making unjustified assumptions about my point and stick to what I actually say?
Whether you want it to be the case or not, it IS the case.
I argued that Shalako is being an idiot and that the method by which he was doing so is not only arrogant and stupid, but more likely than not would hurt the town (ignoring my failstats). I also argued that there is no circumstance where the way Shalako attempted to use his daykill was better than him revealing it to the town and allowing us to control his kill as a second lynch, a very rare case of my using absolutist language, because I just do not believe that the way Shalako is daykilling is in any way more porfitable to the town than using it as a second lynch.
You then go on to attempt to provide instances where AZWOLGs *are* useful to the town, and that my stance is not correct as a universalist position.
In other words, you are indirectly supporting Shalako's play by discrediting my arguments against it.
I argued back that your examples provided were simply not relevant to the points at hand, due to the far different circumstances, and because even if an AZWOLG would help move the game along, a simple declaration stating a daykill is going to happen and who should it target would have the same effect AND act as a second lynch, therefore "moving the game and de-stagnating the game" as well as helping the town MORE than the way Shalako is using it.
So I say again. Your points are not valid. It is NEVER better to arbitrarily nuke people than give the rest of the town a say in the matter. Your claiming that there are circumstances where it is are incorrect, badly supported, and through attacking my position, you're indirectly (or deliberately, I haven't decided yet) defending the person whose play I am attacking.
I honestly give no procreations about whether Shalako's decision to shoot was good or bad, but rather I care about who he decided to shoot; why Pinkfloyd of all people? I believe that this situation has been scripted and that both Shalako and Pinkfloyd are scum, having communicated with one another pre-game to play out this little display, so that if one may fall the other looks good. Wuffles may or may not be part of this; I certainly believed him to be in cahoots with Shalako before it was revealed that Pinkfloyd was bullet proof, but now I think he is likely town who caught the wrong end of a rather interesting display of scumminship.
I honestly give no procreations about whether Shalako's decision to shoot was good or bad, but rather I care about who he decided to shoot; why Pinkfloyd of all people? I believe that this situation has been scripted and that both Shalako and Pinkfloyd are scum, having communicated with one another pre-game to play out this little display, so that if one may fall the other looks good. Wuffles may or may not be part of this; I certainly believed him to be in cahoots with Shalako before it was revealed that Pinkfloyd was bullet proof, but now I think he is likely town who caught the wrong end of a rather interesting display of scumminship.
So DK scum and bulletproof scum? Maybe balanced, if you out yourself as DK and get lynched, at least one scum team member HAS to be lynched...but I doubt it. Voting either is a horri-bad idea. Wuffles too.
@Archonoid - I asked two questions in the post you cited. You deftly avoided answering either with an attack.
I'm amused that [Shalako], of all people, are talking about terrible reasoning. "Hey, PF's RVS daykill must be serious, therefore I should shoot him to prove that I have a daykill!"
12-11? I'm losing track
Redoing currently
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I love the statistics, good job
However, there are two other factors 1) He doesn't know if he has a daykill and is testing it 2) He wants to make sure his daykill is utilized
It is extremely bad form to Daykill this early, is it valid though? I've argued before any vote on a wagon is the hammer vote and hence a kill. Is the daykill no different? Instead of having to wait for majority the kill is instant. Some people trust their reads way too much. Statistic wise it was a no-no, if you play by gut then it was just not nice.
If he is just testing an ability...Daykill is not the place I would start, I would wait for a hammer situation and then test it. Bad play again.
So in summary, it was a [expletive deleted] move, I wouldn't do it. And doing so is a soft claim. I also said not to mention any parameters for a soft claim and what did I get
12-11? I'm losing track
Who can tell me why this is not only wrong, but vote-worthy?
LIKE, I THOUGHT I WAS DONE FOR BECAUSE I DIDNT BEND OVER FOR SHALAKO.
What I find worse is that he wanted me to claim or I would die. I don't like fishing.
LOL
I then went on to say "hoooowever, if it is 1) or 2) then a cautious yes."
also, can everyone please from now on assume that no matter what I say, my opinion on Shalako is "his actions make no sense whatsoever on a townie, so he's mafia or SK, as otherwise he is very very bad at this game, and no matter what, unless he lets the town control his ability, he is effectively an SK anyways, so he must die".
I noticed after that my last post was not quite definitive enough in explaining.
I believe he is scum with a powerfully-chosen ability, because if he's town, he's not playing like one. Therefore, he is scum.
By picking people off unilaterally, he is putting the town in the fast lane which is not a good thing. The town needs enough information outside of a few random deaths to analyze and his behavior is pretty much completely void regardless of his success rate.
I've seen your fuzzy math before, let's see what you have instead of being cryptic. It's not as cool when you do it as when I do it.
blech.
When Shalako used his first daykill, there are 12 players in the game, and reasonable to assume 3 scum.
75% chance. And that's if Shalako is, for some stupid reason, town.
Rite?
In 68.2% of the cases, the town lost after 3 mislynches - the same as if no daykiller existed.
In 18.3% of the cases, the town lost after only 2 mislynches.
And in 13.5% of the cases, the town won outright.
So the daykiller only affects the number of mislynches-till-loss less than a third of the time, and even then has a chance of saving the town from a loss. Statistically, the daykiller only needs to be marginally better than random - on the order of a few percentage points - in order to grant a town advantage.
The best possible outcome here is that Shalako is town and drunk on his own arrogance. The worst (in my opinion likely) outcome is that he's a scum with an extremely powerful role. Who is drunk on his own power.
I used to think that, too. Then I saw Hetalia and Flame Warriors mafia. Stalling and indecision led to burnout and WIFOM saturation. Accelerating a game may not always be a good thing, but it's not always a bad thing either.
Okay, so I got 51% in 5th form maths. Stats is not my strong suit but if Shalako keeps playing that way, we're still more likely than not to lose.
That's not an answer to my question.
HE HAD NO BASIS WHATSOEVER TO SHOOT FLOYD IN THE FIRST PLACE, SO REGARDLESS OF WHETHER FLOYD IS TOWN OR SCUM SHALAKO SHOT HIM FOR NO REASON THEREFORE HIS DAYKILL WAS NOT "BETTER THAN AVERAGE. "
IF FLOYD HAD BEEN SCUMMY IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM PREVIOUSLY THIS WOULD BE DIFFERENT
IF SHALAKO HADN'T FISHED LIKE A MOFO THIS WOULD BE DIFFERENT
BUT YOU CANNOT CLAIM THAT SHALAKO HAD ANY SORT OF "BETTER THAN AVERAGE" BASIS TO SHOOT ANYONE AT THAT STAGE OF THE GAME!
AND STATISTICALLY THERE IS AN 8/11 CHANCE THAT HE KILLED A TOWNIE WITHOUT REASONABLE BASIS. I MAY SUCK AT MATH BUT EVEN I KNOW THAT IS SUB PAR, LOWER THAN AVERAGE CHANCE OF HITTING HIM.
IF FLOYD IS SCUM, THEN THAT STILL DOESNT CHANGE THE FACT THAT SHALAKO KILLED HIM FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN TO SATISFY HIS RAGING INFLAMED PULSING...EGO. AND THAT'S IF HE'S TOWN.
Clear enough? Whew, I think the caps lock key got jammed there a bit.
*facepalm*
Dude, if you self-admittedly "suck at math", stop trying to argue statistics. Read what I wrote carefully. 8/11 is not, in fact, a lower-than-random chance of hitting a townie in that circumstance. Neither "random" nor "average" are synonymous with 50/50.
I don't understand the gist of what you are saying re: math but behaviorally there is nothing there that would lead me to believe pink showed any signs of being scum at that or any other stage so far of this game.
Therefore, in my eyes, Shalako's shot
was
completely
random.
Do you understand where I am coming from with this? Behaviorally Shalako simply had no reason to shoot floyd over, say, you or I at that stage.
Good times Shalako since nobody at all responded to this post where I show wuffles saying I'm not playing like the one time he's seen me.
I wouldn't bother voting anyone since I'm just gonna reset it when Tan shows up.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
LOL
I hope that Shalako is just trolling but if not, then I will do my best to see him dead.
Arch, are you trying to say that you think Shalako may have had a valid reason (with your "reads start the moment random voting stops" comment) for daykilling floyd after floyd brushed off Shalako's horrd fishing attempt?
Because I don't see it at all. That's why I am getting a bit frustrated (okay, saying I am a bit frustrated is like saying the twilight franchise is "a bit emotional"), but I reserve the right to play down my reactions this game. I hate AZWOLGers. I HATE THEM.
Finally, we can lay this question to rest.
Confirming daykill
All of a sudden, Shalako comes out of the crowd with a gun in hand
"My Precioussssss, no one will take my guns from me." he says with a really creepy look in his eyes.
Sensing trouble Pinkfloyd approaches him and tries to take the gun away, but before he can get there Shalako shoots him right in the chest. As pinkfloyd falls over, you all notice a lack of blood coming from him. After a minute, pinkfloyd gets up and dusts himself off, and takes a look under his shirt, revealing the bulletproof vest underneath.
"Well thank god I brought this along," he says as he walks away.
The Kill has FAILED!
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
I didn't want to tell anyone because I needed to see Shalako's reasoning, which is horrible
Vote Shalako for trying to daykill someone in rvs.
LOL
What a waste of power.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
No thanks.
LOL
Lucky the cat is hardened and could withstand the shot, but now you get your brand new toy taken off you and you have been restricted with its use.
I think you aren't town right now but if you are we all learnt that you cannot be trusted with such a powerful role and you need to settle down.
LOL
Speaking of that.
VOTE Wessel II
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
What is this "twisting knots" thing?
LOL
Well, what was your reasoning?
-Thanks
Probably. -And it's "her/she," please. Also, I agree with the rest of this post.
Re Emo: This is such a townie view point. I really don't like Arch's posts regarding this.
Re Softclaim: I'm almost always up for soft-claiming something small. But I'm not seeing anything safe to soft-claim in my role PMs. So, No.
@Wuffles: I really dislike these suggestions, basically a D1 mass claim. -What are you optimistic about?
-Call me crazy, but I'm reading this as you think shal misused a town ability rather than maliciously used a scum ability. -Am I reading that correctly, or am I missing something?
I'm not happy about shal's DK shot, but I think townies tend to fire off excited bad abilities more than scum do. I'd like to hear more of his reasoning though.
Also not liking Wuffles response to the daykill. He's using a bunch of math that depends on shal being town to try to push through a "bad play" policy lynch rather than anything that really points to shal being scum.
Unvote Vote Wuffles
No what I am saying to him is that if he actually is town he needs to get his act together and actually help because what he just did makes me want to lynch him.
LOL
@TFF: I think I've called you a "he" for a long time now, so sorry for that then.
Yeah! Like when the town lynched correctly twice in a row in Hetalia! That's such a terrible thing!
The length didn't kill the down, it literally came down to overconfidence (by the town's part) in their roles. I don't know why that would sound familiar here - OH WAIT SHALAKO PITCHES A TENT OVER HIS ROLE AGAIN.
Mind you, it means Shal is playing like he's town - but your point is just ignorant when it should not be (Arch was in Hetalia's endgame).
I disagree with your analysis. I think town burnout played a major role in that game. Were there other factors as well? Yes. But you can't deny that the dragging on of the game diminished everyone's analytical capacity.
I'm not mafia bro I just hate AZWOLGers like you. Aside from my clear hatred for your play today, why are you voting for me? You haven't been able to provide me a single reason why the hell you tried to dayvig someone yet this game.
I have had a lot of time to think on this and despite, DESPITE, DESPITE Shalako's terrible play here, he probably is town.
I let my sheer gigantic throbbing...frustration rule me yesterday, and it clouded my read on shalako to an unacceptable extent. There is no better way to make me rage in mafia than a vig that can't keep it in his pants.
However, I am still really curious as to why Shalako's not bringing any hate down from any other players?
He never even provided any reasoning as to why he tried to murder PF.
Even if you don't think it was a scum play, at very least, it WAS terrible. Shalako should have saved the kill for a more appropriate time, and he should have let us use him as a second lynch.
If he keeps this up, and kills me tomorrow, that's fine, it at least confirms him as town or SK. Because no mod is stupid enough to give a mafioso multiple daykills.
Although I do remember a game where the mafia could EITHER daykill OR nightkill, so I will be seriously looking at Shalako come Day 2 if there was no nightkill, and I think you all should too.
Aside from that, though, I'm willing to let Shalako go for now, not because he's not terrible, but because he's probably not mafia. Nobody is ever going to convince me that azwolging vigs should be allowed to roam free though. I've lost two games at least where the townie vig took out multiple power roles and the mafia just ran rampant.
Thats not the case here.
Agree but what was his horrible reasoning?
Well?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
@ TFF - I see no harm in telling our names - it seals the mafia into any false claims which can be exploited by the town. How could something like that hurt the town? o.O?
@ Toast - did you read Shalako's play from after the time he posted the daykill? Nowhere did he ever imply he was anything but serious? o.O?
@ Archonoid - This game wasn't stalling, nobody was burned out, and nobody had even had time to make scumdar waves when Shalako did that. Ridiculous logic.
In either of those situations, it would not be azwolging, because the very mention of a dayvig's plans to kill someone would create plenty of discussion and de-stagnate the game. And even IF the vig was not taking the best option, that is, to use the dayvig as an extra lynch as decided by the town, there would already be plenty (perhaps too much) information available for a dayvig to make an independent, balanced judgement based on scumtells.
But you know, Shalako's actions simply can't be justified by logic like that. It's a total copout, and unlike my math (useless because my stats abilities fail harder than a dog with no legs running a marathon - thanks for pulling me up on that, peeps - I'll stick to behavior over stats from now on! :embarrass:), your comments don't even strike me as useful; it has no relevance to Shalako's actions whatsoever.
AZWOLGing is when a vig arbitrarily kills without townie consent without good reason.
What you described simply isn't.
I reveiwed the setup for flame warriors, and quite frankly, that game was pretty close to a specialty in the complexity of some of the roles and the uniqueness of the setup. This setup I am more than guessing is nothing like that. While the mafia may have some powerful roles, I seriously doubt they are as specialized as you are advising they could be. Tanarin tends toward simpler setups, I believe. Your comments are just fearmongering.
Generally, you seem to be consistently assuming that I'm saying something that I am not. You assumed that my comments about azwolging being sometimes justified were a specific defense of Shalako, for example, when I made it explicitly clear that I was not arguing for Shalako specifically. Can you stop making unjustified assumptions about my point and stick to what I actually say?
I argued that Shalako is being an idiot and that the method by which he was doing so is not only arrogant and stupid, but more likely than not would hurt the town (ignoring my failstats). I also argued that there is no circumstance where the way Shalako attempted to use his daykill was better than him revealing it to the town and allowing us to control his kill as a second lynch, a very rare case of my using absolutist language, because I just do not believe that the way Shalako is daykilling is in any way more porfitable to the town than using it as a second lynch.
You then go on to attempt to provide instances where AZWOLGs *are* useful to the town, and that my stance is not correct as a universalist position.
In other words, you are indirectly supporting Shalako's play by discrediting my arguments against it.
I argued back that your examples provided were simply not relevant to the points at hand, due to the far different circumstances, and because even if an AZWOLG would help move the game along, a simple declaration stating a daykill is going to happen and who should it target would have the same effect AND act as a second lynch, therefore "moving the game and de-stagnating the game" as well as helping the town MORE than the way Shalako is using it.
So I say again. Your points are not valid. It is NEVER better to arbitrarily nuke people than give the rest of the town a say in the matter. Your claiming that there are circumstances where it is are incorrect, badly supported, and through attacking my position, you're indirectly (or deliberately, I haven't decided yet) defending the person whose play I am attacking.
Try again, brah.
I honestly give no procreations about whether Shalako's decision to shoot was good or bad, but rather I care about who he decided to shoot; why Pinkfloyd of all people? I believe that this situation has been scripted and that both Shalako and Pinkfloyd are scum, having communicated with one another pre-game to play out this little display, so that if one may fall the other looks good. Wuffles may or may not be part of this; I certainly believed him to be in cahoots with Shalako before it was revealed that Pinkfloyd was bullet proof, but now I think he is likely town who caught the wrong end of a rather interesting display of scumminship.
So DK scum and bulletproof scum? Maybe balanced, if you out yourself as DK and get lynched, at least one scum team member HAS to be lynched...but I doubt it. Voting either is a horri-bad idea. Wuffles too.
@Archonoid - I asked two questions in the post you cited. You deftly avoided answering either with an attack.
12-11? I'm losing track