I think he's town because he is acting like I would expect someone who is town to act, and is not acting like I would expect a scum to act?
Scum don't fight thirdparty claims on day one, and if they DO, they push for lynch, not for vigging.
Wasting the town's vig shot on someone who is not currently a threat is totally something scum would attempt to do.
Lynches they can control. Vig shots are wildcards.
Chocolate Pi being vigged is something the scumteam isn't going to want. They'd like him to be lynched, because that means one more night they can kill with and a lynch that they don't have to worry about, but him being vigged ... actually hurts them, because then they can't joint with him at mylo/lylo. Certainly they'd prefer a vig on town over a vig on him, at any rate.
That's wrong. There's no reason they wouldn't be ok with him being vigged. Optimally, they want him in LyLo. Sure.
But they wouldn't bat an eye if the vig shot hits a neutral instead of them.
And ... he's not fearmongering? He's pointing out that Chocolate Pi is saying false things. Of course CPi will joint with maf at mylo/lylo, doing anything else is insane. Third parties who can do that, will do that. Because they want to win.
Yeah, right. He will likely play to his wincon when that time comes. But LyLo is like.... maybe 6 Days away minimum. (No I didn't spend a whole lot of time doing the math there). Why should we worry about that NOW, with X Days to the point where that factor even COULD come into play??
... but that doesn't mean he's a good lynch, and he's very much not an informative lynch.
Like I said, I have NO reason to want him dead. I don't win more with him dead right now. The only time he will serve my wincon more dead is if he's in a position where he may help the scum, which, as I said... it several days out.
So arguing against his lynch... is fine and reasonable? And Mirdini tried to move on from it and then people keep aggroing him over it. With ... no content and misrepresentation of his points and ffff.
That's not why I voted him.
which is what is wrong with #147. It is a weak aggropost that very much looks like an attempt to lynch the noob without providing much in the way of reasons... which is a not-uncommon scumploy, IME.
I gave valid reason for my vote.
To recap: He's making a big deal about how later in the game, he will likely side with scum if the situation presents itself. My point is, that isn't relevent NOW. He's using that to try to direct the vig shot. Hence my vote.
Re: Silicon Valley: dude... I'm up near San Francisco.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And my vote is because you are maliciously misinterpreting what Mirdini said.
And then clarified. And repeated his clarification at length, because people keep harping on this.
An early vig shot is super unlikely to hit scum, and doesn't give information the way an early lynch does! An early shot on a potentially dangerous third party ... is way higher EV than a "random" shot.
And my vote is because you are maliciously misinterpreting what Mirdini said.
And then clarified. And repeated his clarification at length, because people keep harping on this.
An early vig shot is super unlikely to hit scum, and doesn't give information the way an early lynch does! An early shot on a potentially dangerous third party ... is way higher EV than a "random" shot.
Ok, so now can you prove the malice behind my vote? I disagree that I'm wrong about what he's saying. I disagree further that there was malice behind it. But you obviously saw reasons for malice, so I wanna know what led you to think that.
And who said the vig shot would be random? Any vig who shoots random needs to not be a vig... lol.
The vig will obviously shoot whomever he deems most likely to be scum.
I'm STILL not seeing why we need to worry about Pi right now. Why should we waste our resources on someone who's very much not a problem right now?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Eron, do you have nothing else to say about anything that's been going on in the game?
That's where I'm at, at the moment. We basically spent ten pages arguing whether or not a neutral is a good lynch/vig candidate when the only true harm based on their claimed ability is at least a handful of days away.
Why would we waste time killing non mafia when we could actually be looking for scum? It feels to me that Mirinda has found a deflection point. I'm voting for this behavior at this time. We're nowhere near claim range and there are still several folks who haven't checked in.
Is there something specific that you are looking for comment on?
So we have our first dichotomy. Mirdini and friends are voting for Poggy, and Poggy and friends are voting for Mirdini.
I don't think what Mirdini is saying is fearmongering; I think Mirdini is saying that the vig should not take his/her job lightly when deciding on who to shoot tonight. However, Mirdini has said this numerous times and numerous ways. Basically because whenever someone brings it up again, Mirdini feels it is necessary to go through the one or two scenarios that would befall the town if we let Chocolate Pi live. Chocolate Pi's vote here really screws my head up.
As for Poggydude, I can't really comment on ongoing games, but from my understanding he comes off as rash and abrasive sometimes. The only problem is rash and abrasive =/= scum. Sometimes town players can be the same way.
We're still a long way away from a lynch (9 votes), but I think we have our first feud going on right here and the lines in the sand are being drawn.
Not quite something specific exactly but what do you think Arnnaria right now?
Arnn doesn't have any completed scum games. I've played in several with him though including one ongoing. This is his typical posting frequency. As far as content, he is playing much more middle of the road and less definitive then he normally does and if I had to guess it wouldn't surprise me if he is a neutral at this point in the game.
See his most recent post as an example. While it is true that there are two groups that have formed, he has not made a truly definitive comme t on either side of the argument.
chocopi when was the last time you played mafia/a variant?
because i do not remember you ever playing a thing in the places i have seen you. you are always running the show. u-u
last game I saw Chocolate Pi play was Garciahunt. Where he kind of completely wrecked both groups of scum at once.
... wait, no, there was a game on GitP but I got killed super early and kind of turbo-raged at some *******s in deadchat (goddamn suicide lynch-forcer on me day one, only it got stopped by deadline. So maf shot me. >_<) and then shut myself off from knowing the result because it was all kinds of shameful.
and I've heard about one or two games since then but I forget. He's always played more IRL anyway, I think.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
well, yes. I did set myself invisible pregame. because I've seen all kinds of dumb attempts to forum-stalk people and ... it just never goes well, and I'd rather everyone was invisible so that I wouldn't even be tempted to think about it.
i was breeding pigs in minecraft when i was posting that
now i'm farming blazes
(i'm waiting until i have enough info on playstyles to do my thing.)
(which is basically eating popcorn and watching people talk until i figure out wat do.)
oh man, i just read all of arn;s posts
he is so scum. he reads like he's scratch-hunting, if you are a person who know what that means.
(it means a person who is scum and knows that they're in a game with a third party, and want to lynch them because it's a mislynch that benefits town so town will help them do it. and some town even give them town points for this! and then they are all smug and winning.)
vote arnnaria
I'm new around these parts, and haven't actually played a mafia game in almost two years. I'll try to keep up and be helpful, though - just my computer access has been sporadic at the start of this week.
My thoughts on the current things going on in this game:
Chocolate Pi: We're talking about this too much! He's not detrimental to the town at the moment, and while he's not a terrible vig kill night one (I'd rather it be done night one than later in the game when the vig has better information, if it's ever going to be done), it's still a waste of a resource. We should not dismiss the fact that it's an intentional fake claim, however unlikely, though!
Mirdini: I don't understand the animosity people have towards him so far. He's advocating shooting a neutral role that can be detrimental to our best interests in end game on night one, before town as a whole has a lot of solid reads and information. Yes, maybe he's advocating that a little too strongly, but if it is something he genuinely believes and fears, that's not necessarily a bad thing!
Bolly: I dislike your heavy thread presence without actually saying anything. Merely commenting without any actual opinions in posts clutters the thread, and means that genuine information and reads are scattered and harder to process. Fluff is not a good thing! It's been stated that it is the norm for you, however, so I'll treat it as a null event, rather than town or scum. But I implore you to make your posts have a purpose rather than merely commenting. Condense!
Kill Joy: Thank you for not continuing the slight Role Playing outside of the random voting! It's a fluffy thing that makes it harder for me to get reads on people, which is exasperating.
Acionyx: I like you. There doesn't need to be massive walls of REASONS to pressure somebody, and it is refreshing that someone sees that! My strongest town read so far.
Arnnaria: As much as I like Acionyx, I dislike you, so far. It's a similar reason to my distrust of Bolly, in a way - it feels like you are commenting for thread presence rather than to actually say anything. Almost every single thing you have posted has felt measured and safe, rather than say anything that could be inflammatory or opinionated in the least! The exception is one comment directed at Bolly considering him being high strung as a possible scum indicator. We would do well to consider this a possible distancing attempt, maybe, depending on how the game unfolds!
I'll Vote: Arnnaria for the time being, but I would like to see you try and actually poke people that you think are potentially scummy, rather than just comment on the state of the game and the neutral survivor. Thanks!
Kill-joy: I had to go re-read his posts, because I had largely skimmed them due to excessive eyeball rolling at the 'sweeties' every other line. There has been pretty repeated defense of Bolly, which makes me a little bit uneasy, especially considering he also gave Bolly some helpful advice: 'Analyze it. That's what you do.' My initial instinct is to say that they are scum teammates without day chat. There is also a willingness to keep Chocolate Pi alive that I suspect scum are going to be more inclined to have. It's a minor thing, that includes half of the game (myself included!) but I still feel it worth noting. I personally disagree with his assessment of lynches and vig shots, as I feel the lynch is a much stronger town tool than the vig, where he seems to think scum can easily control lynches. I welcome them to try!
Laset: I generally have liked his posts and reasoning as they seem to align with my own thoughts for the most part. I'm less inclined to think that Kill-joy is trending towards town than he seems to think, which makes me slightly wary. This is a scum play that I have utilized in the past: attack relatively hard before deciding you're okay with their reactions, and writing them off as town. It means you have a presence in the thread as someone doing things that benefit town, and using your buddies to accomplish that - making them look more town in the process. Just making the note to keep an eye on future interactions!
The end result of looking back over both of those players is that Laset feels slightly town to me, and Kill-joy slightly scum, but neither is an extremely strong read.
I actually can think of two reasons that keeping Chocolate Pi and his ability alive is a good thing.
The first relates to what people seem to view as useless - forcing the scum team to switch their assigned hitman to make the kill. If there are town tracker or watcher type roles, this means that the scum team may have to expose people that they don't wish to expose, rather than slightly more expendable or suspected members.
The second is that having a pre-determined vig target is never a good idea unless all roles are known! I can't think of the precise name of the role off hand, but I ran a game three years ago that had a scum role where you could switch the night actions targeting two different people. If we decide the Vig should absolutely shoot Chocolate Pi, it would be unfortunate for the next day to start and two active town members be dead.
I can understand how people might view his role as being somewhat informative, though. But it relies on him telling the truth, and there are times when not telling the truth will be in his own best interests, and not necessarily the town's. So while it looks like a good argument on the surface, the premise itself is flawed.
But can we please stop wasting time and thread space on the revealed neutral role that has very little impact on the game?
Fairly new for most things but yeah this is what I have so far:
Frankly I'm not feeling too good about Cpi's 3rd party claim.
Like someone had pointed out, he can still win with the mafia and that in itself is already off for me. I don't like the way that he was successful though, in distracting most of the players and having them discuss on what to do with him rather than start looking around for someone else. He claimed 3rd party. Okay, fine but it doesn't seem like his role is too threatening since he can only 'wound' people. I wouldn't recommend that he would be a vig target for N1 merely because he hasn't done anything incredibly scummy that would cause the downfall of town.
First, I think we are still in the early part of the game and there really isn't much factual evidence to go off of. Both the Poggy wagon and the Mirdini wagon don't have much legs to stand on. Both are operating on the assumption that because some scummy behavior the other needs to be lynched.
So let's look at the players involved:
Mirdini (4): Chocolate Pi, Kill-joy, poggydude, EronTheRelentless
Chocolate Pi is in OMGUS mode. But a vote against him is dumb when there are other methods to get rid of him.
FOS: Chocolate Pi
Kill-Joy has been logical for the most part, and actively defending certain players metas.
Poggydude is acting like the same old Poggydude that I know. He always reads scum to me, but even moreso this game.
Eron has provided little reasoning for his vote except that he doesn't like what's going down.
Final Score: Salve Regulars 3, New Players to these boards 1
poggydude (4): Mirdini, SciSolaris, Iso, Acionyx
Mirdini is actively taken up the lynch as her personal mission against poggy. But, she's been trying to get Chocolate Pi on the chopping block too. I don't know Chocolate's meta, but maybe Mirdini does and that's why the vote.
SciSolaris made a sweeping case against Poggy, but I've seen Poggy play like this before. It's his meta. There really is nothing in the case that definitely points Poggy as scum.
FOS: SciSolaris
Iso is an opportunist and a self-preservationist. A vote from him is to take any slack off the fact that he's not gonna be 100% here for a while.
Acionyx I don't have a read on.
Final Score: Salve Regulars 1, New Players to these boards 3
***
Does everyone see how the lines in the sand are being drawn? People, either willingly or unwillingly, are siding with what they know to be true based upon where they play. Just because I'm not taking a part of either wagon doesn't mean that I'm waffling -- I just have no interest in lynching Poggydude or Mirdini today. So If I had to vote, my vote is on SciSolaris. I'll explain in the next response.
Mind sharing your thoughts om something that isn't Chocolate Pi? Bolly, Arnnaria, Kill-joy, and anyone else that you have an opinion on. You claim not to like how he's distracted people from the task at hand - finding the scum team, while not actually giving any thoughts on people that aren't him!
ebwop: it's just like ok we get it, you are suspicious of a person. you don't need to use outdated terminology and bold to make everyone know you are suspicious of this person! if they have basic reading comprehension skills they should be able to get it from your post. if you put your reasons in your post. instead of just saying "I AM POINTING MY FINGER AT THAT GUY OVER THERE BECAUSE HE IS SUSPICIOUS"
Let me tell you a story, one of the the stray vote. At the start of a game, a stray vote is weak, unfocused, but still important. It is a statement. It says that out of everyone, this is a person that you could see dead. This is someone that I feel is either useless to town's efforts or whose death should enlighten and inform. This is someone who I want lynched. All votes do not have to be made with this in mind, but they should at least be shown as such, otherwise, what is the point? Who will react to a single vote made out of a desire for pressure or for reaction lulz if it is stated? No one except the newest of souls.
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. An early vote does not mean that you want a person dead; an early vote means that you want to pressure the person into providing more content. Why are people voting for me right now? Do they honestly think that my removal from the game is the best course of action? I can't speak for them, but they might. They also might want me to take a definitive stand against someone, anyone. We are still in the very early stages of the game. It's going to take 13 votes to lynch someone and nobody is even past 6. Until someone makes a major flub, people are simply putting pressure on one another.
Now, as time goes on, votes die out, and the remaining ones grow stronger. There is more pressure on your vote, more thought behind it. You need to be sure that you want that person dead, positive without a doubt. It is important! For who knows when the next vote will be the last. You need to have a record, of who you wanted dead the most, for others to go on, and the vote is that tool! But the stray vote? The one without thought or care, that can be the most damaging tool of all. If you neglect it, forget it, or leave it on someone you are unsure of, ever unaware of the looming scum hammer waiting to happen, then you doom us all.
If you are never sure of your vote, then why vote at all? If your vote means nothing to you, then what should it mean to those who you attack? No, NO. One must believe in their vote and its power.
Again, I agree that votes are power. But I disagree that they are the only way to exercise one's power. Scum lists, vote tracking, PBPA -- all these are active ways to scumhunt without throwing down the gauntlet. In fact, that's how I spend most of my games. If you don't believe me, look at my meta. If you don't believe my meta, ask someone I've played with before. I don't vote unless I have to and am 80% confident in what I'm saying. This, for example, is why I'm not voting you but simply putting an FoS on you.
Anyway.
Oh yes, I am so sure that a third party role is so keen on being used as a town resource. Pi knows that he isn't going to be lynched. He knows that he isn't going to be night killed by scum. We don't know if he's telling the truth, we don't know if he truly wins with scum in the way that he has said! The easiest way to find out is to kill him, vigilantee. Now, Mirdini, Mirdini, Mirdini. Your vote for him is on the basis of him wanting to remove a wild card, a third party that could potentially lose us the game if left unchecked? That's ridiculous.
NOW ON TO THE MAIN COURSE.
1) There is almost never a reason to cop a claimed Miller or Godfather. It is a waste of a cop unless we are going sanity checking which is MUCH BETTER done via a lynch.
Agree, it would be a waste of a night for the cop to investigate Chocolate Pi.
It takes two of his woundings to kill scum and that requires that he visit the scum kill of the night. As scum now knows what would happen if they met Pi at the night, they would not go and send out a wounded scum member out to kill, which stops them from ever meeting Pi.
If at the end of the game, it is lylo, and there is only one scum member left unwounded(but say, two in total), and Pi is alive, here are the options for them.
1) Scum tries for a myslynch on Pi or one of the other two remaining town.
2) Not wounded scum claims and votes to no lynch and tells Pi who he will kill in the night.
So, when do the scum have the ability to chat with non-scum? This has been my major beef with everyone that is saying Chocolate Pi is a liability: it all hinges on the fact that he has some method of conversation between the scum and himself. He doesn't. There's no logical way a role of his power would "get to know" who the scum were. And if there was a way that he knows, and he's not telling us, it's definitely worth a vig shot tonight. All these theories of how Chocolate Pi could turn on us require communication between a third party and scum. Frankly, I'm not seeing that right now.
Now, assuming that Pi is telling the truth to his claim, and he knows that there is one wounded and one not wounded scum, then here are his options.
1) Vote for the not wounded scum member, which could result in his death and the wounded scum member winning anyway.
2) Vote to no lynch with the not wounded scum member, follow on his deal, and win when day starts and both scum are wounded.
There are other scenario's yes, but here's another choice.
Let's say it is LYLO, all three scum are wounded. This means that Pi has essentially won. He has two options, let the game go on, which has a chance of him losing because he dies or something. Or call to vote with scum, which means he instantly wins instead of waiting around for three scum lynches.
WHO WOULD NOT BE A WASTE OF A VIG? KILLING PI IS NOT KILLING TOWN. THAT DOES NOT SOUND LIKE A WASTE TO ME!!!
Yea okay this is too long already.
I think that it isn't a waste of a vig. But everyone has been hounding it hard that the vig, by this point, has already probably gotten the message. That's gonna be up to him/her to decide if he/she wants to take out Pi.
So, half your post is on Poggy's reaction to Chocolate Pi. What about Mirdini's reaction to Chocolate Pi? How is Miridini's reaction any less scummy than Poggys?
My previous post was directed at Dark Shadow, Arnnaria simply posted before I noticed.
Arnnaria's post still doesn't sit very well with me. Why are you turning it into a regulars vs. newer players analysis? That tells us absolutely nothing, and just reiterates my belief that you are posting to simply post, without anything of significance within them.
You claim that Poggydude always feels like scum to you, and then that it is even stronger in this game, yet you seem to have a problem with people pressuring him. I don't understand that. If it's a strong scum feeling, why are you not helping pursue and pressure that read?
You point a finger at SciSolaris for making a sweeping case against Poggydude, but then defend Poggydude because... he always feels like scum? How is this in any way logical? You even state previously that it's a strong feeling for you.
Intentionally trying to turn this into a divide between regulars and new players is just a terrible thing to do. Take a step back, assume competence and coincidence. A whopping three to one divide is not significant in the least!
My previous post was directed at Dark Shadow, Arnnaria simply posted before I noticed.
Arnnaria's post still doesn't sit very well with me. Why are you turning it into a regulars vs. newer players analysis? That tells us absolutely nothing, and just reiterates my belief that you are posting to simply post, without anything of significance within them.
You claim that Poggydude always feels like scum to you, and then that it is even stronger in this game, yet you seem to have a problem with people pressuring him. I don't understand that. If it's a strong scum feeling, why are you not helping pursue and pressure that read?
You point a finger at SciSolaris for making a sweeping case against Poggydude, but then defend Poggydude because... he always feels like scum? How is this in any way logical? You even state previously that it's a strong feeling for you.
Intentionally trying to turn this into a divide between regulars and new players is just a terrible thing to do. Take a step back, assume competence and coincidence. A whopping three to one divide is not significant in the least!
No, you're right it might not be significant. I just like to point out trends in voting and that's one of the trends I noticed. I'm not trying to wave the bloody flag and start a war between the two people.
As for Poggy, if he doesn't something that I consider extremely scummy my vote will be on him. But so far he's just done what everyone has been doing: talking about Chocolate Pi. SciSolaris builds an entire case around him talking about Chocolate Pi. I guess that's fine and good, but Sol needs to look at other people who are doing the same thing: Mirdini in particular.
I apparently need to ensure I refresh the page prior to posting. I keep having my posts appear after things I wanted addressed were addressed, at least to some degree.
i would ebwop x 4 but people have posted in the interim.
with silly things.
like doing the fos thing again instead of voting. why aren't you voting for sol if you think he's scum?
I apparently need to ensure I refresh the page prior to posting. I keep having my posts appear after things I wanted addressed were addressed, at least to some degree.
Yeah that can be a real problem on these boards for this game.
"Around here things move so quickly you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place."
i would ebwop x 4 but people have posted in the interim.
with silly things.
like doing the fos thing again instead of voting. why aren't you voting for sol if you think he's scum?
Would a vote really matter here? I've said my piece and made my point; now Sol has to respond. If you think a vote will get me there sooner, I could. But Sol's entire post was about the power of a vote. Saying you want somebody to die because you believe so strongly in them that you see them as potential lynch. I am not at that point. With Sol, I'm just suspicious of why Sol is hopping on one dude and not any others. I'm not going to put a vote on him, because I think if I did Sol's mindset would be to "shut down and attack" as opposed to "talk it out like civilized people do". So, for now a FoS is all I feel comfortable with given his position on what a vote means to him.
Would a vote really matter here? I've said my piece and made my point; now Sol has to respond. If you think a vote will get me there sooner, I could. But Sol's entire post was about the power of a vote. Saying you want somebody to die because you believe so strongly in them that you see them as potential lynch. I am not at that point. With Sol, I'm just suspicious of why Sol is hopping on one dude and not any others. I'm not going to put a vote on him, because I think if I did Sol's mindset would be to "shut down and attack" as opposed to "talk it out like civilized people do". So, for now a FoS is all I feel comfortable with given his position on what a vote means to him.
Why do you care about his positions if you suspect him?
Because I'm all about playing nice until someone backs me into a corner. And I try my best not to back other people into corners unless I'm 100% sure they are scum.
I'm not 100% sure Sol is scum. I'm just feeling as if Sol's vote is unjustified against Poggy when literally half the town has been commentating on the "claim heard round the world."
Sorry for what will undoubtedly contain a lot of third-party talk, but it is sort of an important subject to me.
Ok! First off I have news from the mod.
Round 1:
Do I know if I successfully wound a target tonight? If so do I know which player I wound? If you have a duel you will be informed character's role name. [sic] (but not the player's name)
Do the mafia know when they are wounded? Yes.
If the cop checks me, what is the result? I cannot answer that.
If I die, but my stated victory conditions are still met, do I still win? You must be alive to meet your victory condition. (either one)
How many third parties are in this game? I cannot answer that.
Round 2:
If I wound someone tonight, is it announced publicly? No, only you and that mafia member are informed.
When I wound someone does the NK target still die? (I am pretty sure personally) Yes.
Is "wound" a game keyword? If you are asking if other roles also wound other players, I cannot answer that.
If I have wounded all mafia members, am I notified? Do I remain in the game. You are notified when you wound a player, but otherwise no. You remain in the game. (survival is require [sic] for your victory condition)
This is all pretty much what I has assumed. The only thing I didn't expect was learning role names, which is... kinda nice? It's mostly useful if I get lucky early.
To repeat my previous Day's promises, or rather conclusions on optimal behavior:
If I wound a target, I will immediately announce it (inc. the role name) publicly.
If I miss, I will immediately announce that I missed, but not indicate who I guessed.
This is the first I've said on the matter, but I don't see him doing that as a third party.
Why would he stick his neck out so early, when he could have easily laid low and played pro-town anyways?
Serious curiosity: How would YOU have played this role? If I "lay low", I'm just a survivor but with extra conditions on winning.
Like I can't imagine anything but a D1 claim being optimal. Unlike a normal survivor, this way town has reason to keep me alive on a leash for ~4-5 days. (To screw with scum killer choice.)
For the record after thinking about it for a night I think I know how this role came to be.
I'm going to give mafia 1/2 guys who specialize in killing people! (cop/doc-proof?)
Wait, why wouldn't they just always send those people?
I know, I'll add a third party that spooks them; they will mysteriously get wounded one night and need to change plans.
Oh yes, I am so sure that a third party role is so keen on being used as a town resource.
I mean, this is literally the only path I see to victory. If town wins, I have a very high chance of winning. The more scum die early, the higher my odds are. I want this game to get down to one scum ASAP.
We don't know if he's telling the truth, we don't know if he truly wins with scum in the way that he has said!
If I had a remotely viable path to win with scum, I'd have pursued that or at least sat on the fence.
Like this role does not have a high-% chance of winning, do you agree? The fact that I'm here and we are having this conversation is evidence alone that my mafia win condition is exactly as crappy as stated.
WINE? No, it's just a crappy role.
Also, I can't be lying about my wounding action in terms of "oh well maybe he could wound town and kill townies too"; because if I could wound town then moment that happens whatever jig I was playing would be up.
It takes two of his woundings to kill scum and that requires that he visit the scum kill of the night. As scum now knows what would happen if they met Pi at the night, they would not go and send out a wounded scum member out to kill, which stops them from ever meeting Pi.
If at the end of the game, it is lylo, and there is only one scum member left unwounded(but say, two in total), and Pi is alive, here are the options for them.
1) Scum tries for a myslynch on Pi or one of the other two remaining town.
2) Not wounded scum claims and votes to no lynch and tells Pi who he will kill in the night.
Now, assuming that Pi is telling the truth to his claim, and he knows that there is one wounded and one not wounded scum, then here are his options.
1) Vote for the not wounded scum member, which could result in his death and the wounded scum member winning anyway.
2) Vote to no lynch with the not wounded scum member, follow on his deal, and win when day starts and both scum are wounded.
You are missing something big, the same thing Mirdini keeps ignoring. How do I know that scum is telling the truth in either case? They have zero reason to actually tell me who is or isn't wounded, and zero reason to actually pick the game-win option that lets me win. In fact, due to the possibility of role-power shenanigans, their optimal play is always to kill the OTHER townie and leave me hanging.
You know what my best victory odds are? Lynching the unmarked scum. This always results in me winning unless scum NK's me out of spite!
Let's say scum #1 of 2 says "if you don't joint with us, we will kill you." We've already established that believing them and trying to win with them is a non-solution, so they actually have nothing to offer me. And if scum really does want to suboptimally throw out their win possibilities to kill me instead of town, well they can do that tonight.
There are other scenario's yes, but here's another choice.
Let's say it is LYLO, all three scum are wounded. This means that Pi has essentially won. He has two options, let the game go on, which has a chance of him losing because he dies or something. Or call to vote with scum, which means he instantly wins instead of waiting around for three scum lynches.
Dies to what? The only way I can die is if I refuse to play, there's a vote deadlock, and both sides agree to mutually kill me.
If I do manage to wound ALL scum, you know what I'm doing? I'm announcing that I will be guessing myself every night.
WHO WOULD NOT BE A WASTE OF A VIG? KILLING PI IS NOT KILLING TOWN. THAT DOES NOT SOUND LIKE A WASTE TO ME!!!
But killing me is not killing scum! The point of town is to kill scum, not to "not kill town". Lynching is good, even if most lynches hit town--because not lynching never hits scum! Lynching me, no lynch, vig'ing me, and vig'ing no one all advance town's win condition the exact same amount: zero.
Why waste a kill, lynch or vig, on someone who is essentially confirmed non-scum and cannot help scum?
Literally my only mechanical impact on this game is sitting around and making sure scum send different people to do NKs.
Chocolate Pi being vigged is something the scumteam isn't going to want.
Wut.
This makes NO SENSE.
A vig kill on me is a vig kill 100% guaranteed to not be a vig kill on scum, and it removes my pesky don't-send-the-same-guy-twice restriction on them.
They'd like him to be lynched, because that means one more night they can kill with and a lynch that they don't have to worry about, but him being vigged ... actually hurts them, because then they can't joint with him at mylo/lylo. Certainly they'd prefer a vig on town over a vig on him, at any rate.
I've already addressed the "attempting to trust scum and joint with them is nonsense suicide and I should always try to kill the unmarked ones instead" issue.
I mean, scum would certainly prefer a cop or such to be vig-killed over me. But early game I actually think (depending on their role powers) that they might prefer me dead to a vanilla townie.
Like my night action thing is certainly more annoying to scum than a vanilla.
And ... he's not fearmongering? He's pointing out that Chocolate Pi is saying false things. Of course CPi will joint with maf at mylo/lylo, doing anything else is insane. Third parties who can do that, will do that. Because they want to win.
What false things exactly? Yet again, jointing with scum is a dead end. Any deal or negotiation you can come up with breaks down on inspection, because neither side has the motivation to go through with their end. There is no stable equilibrium. Meanwhile, killing non-final unmarked scum is always exclusively good for me.
Chocolate Pi's vote here really screws my head up.
BEGIN NON-THIRD-PARTY CONTENT
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I actually don't like poggy right now and think this argument between Mirdini and him is hrurg. If Mirdini flips scum, I want to kill poggy too. (If Mirdini doesn't flip scum, I still probably want to?)
---------------------------------- END NON-THIRD-PARTY CONTENT
chocopi when was the last time you played mafia/a variant?
because i do not remember you ever playing a thing in the places i have seen you. you are always running the show. u-u
On a forum, it's been awhile. I played in some at sirlin and some on gitp. I played a few IRC games a bit ago, but it's mostly real life games with various groups.
But it relies on him telling the truth, and there are times when not telling the truth will be in his own best interests, and not necessarily the town's.
Hmm? I'm seriously not sure what you mean, the only "information" I can get is the event of wounding people, which I have zero motivation to conceal and small (but some) reason to tell town.
Remember, scum automatically knows they are wounded--they already know. Me concealing the event doesn't hurt them or advance my chances in any form.
----------
Now, this dumb role aside, I'm going to go read through all of Sol's posts again.
Sorry for what will undoubtedly contain a lot of third-party talk, but it is sort of an important subject to me.
Ok! First off I have news from the mod.
Round 1:
Do I know if I successfully wound a target tonight? If so do I know which player I wound? If you have a duel you will be informed character's role name. [sic] (but not the player's name)
Do the mafia know when they are wounded? Yes.
If the cop checks me, what is the result? I cannot answer that.
If I die, but my stated victory conditions are still met, do I still win? You must be alive to meet your victory condition. (either one)
How many third parties are in this game? I cannot answer that.
Round 2:
If I wound someone tonight, is it announced publicly? No, only you and that mafia member are informed.
When I wound someone does the NK target still die? (I am pretty sure personally) Yes.
Is "wound" a game keyword? If you are asking if other roles also wound other players, I cannot answer that.
If I have wounded all mafia members, am I notified? Do I remain in the game. You are notified when you wound a player, but otherwise no. You remain in the game. (survival is require [sic] for your victory condition)
This is all pretty much what I has assumed. The only thing I didn't expect was learning role names, which is... kinda nice? It's mostly useful if I get lucky early.
To repeat my previous Day's promises, or rather conclusions on optimal behavior:
If I wound a target, I will immediately announce it (inc. the role name) publicly.
If I miss, I will immediately announce that I missed, but not indicate who I guessed.
You know here that you're not supposed to quote any PM's, not just role Pm's right? I sure hope you paraphrased this.
----------
Serious curiosity: How would YOU have played this role? If I "lay low", I'm just a survivor but with extra conditions on winning.
I think revealing would be important, because any rolecop that looks at you will see "Serial Killer" in the title. That's not something you can backpedal from; especially when you claim your role has "Serial Killer" in the title. That's going to raise a ton of suspicion from everyone.
Like I can't imagine anything but a D1 claim being optimal. Unlike a normal survivor, this way town has reason to keep me alive on a leash for ~4-5 days. (To screw with scum killer choice.)
For the record after thinking about it for a night I think I know how this role came to be.
I'm going to give mafia 1/2 guys who specialize in killing people! (cop/doc-proof?)
Wait, why wouldn't they just always send those people?
I know, I'll add a third party that spooks them; they will mysteriously get wounded one night and need to change plans.
Gaming the mod: never a good idea
I mean, this is literally the only path I see to victory. If town wins, I have a very high chance of winning. The more scum die early, the higher my odds are. I want this game to get down to one scum ASAP.
Then start scumhunting instead of discussing things pertaining to your role that have already been discussed. You're operating on self preservation now, you are not doing what is best for the town.
I actually gave myself a ~25% chance of being killed N1 going into this. That vanished the moment the vig-talk hit the fan.
Well what do you expect? With a role like that, of course you are going to raise the suspicions of a lot of people
If I had a remotely viable path to win with scum, I'd have pursued that or at least sat on the fence.
Like this role does not have a high-% chance of winning, do you agree? The fact that I'm here and we are having this conversation is evidence alone that my mafia win condition is exactly as crappy as stated.
No, not many third parties have an outside chance of winning. If you look at the statistics on this site, you'll see how difficult it is for third parties to win.
WINE? No, it's just a crappy role.
Also, I can't be lying about my wounding action in terms of "oh well maybe he could wound town and kill townies too"; because if I could wound town then moment that happens whatever jig I was playing would be up.
(inb4 another wounding role)
I strongly suggest anyone who has a wounding role not reveal it. Too much has already been revealed to the scum. We don't need to add "wounders" to it.
You are missing something big, the same thing Mirdini keeps ignoring. How do I know that scum is telling the truth in either case? They have zero reason to actually tell me who is or isn't wounded, and zero reason to actually pick the game-win option that lets me win. In fact, due to the possibility of role-power shenanigans, their optimal play is always to kill the OTHER townie and leave me hanging.
So now we're coaching scum on what to do? Self preservation, man. I know you're trying to win with a complicated role, but you could've road it out for a couple days and then revealed with a "I'm a Serial Killer, but look you guys, I've wounded X, Y, and Z."
You know what my best victory odds are? Lynching the unmarked scum. This always results in me winning unless scum NK's me out of spite!
Let's say scum #1 of 2 says "if you don't joint with us, we will kill you." We've already established that believing them and trying to win with them is a non-solution, so they actually have nothing to offer me. And if scum really does want to suboptimally throw out their win possibilities to kill me instead of town, well they can do that tonight.
Do you have some sort of chat with the scum (day chat or night chat)? How are they going to communicate with you without committing suicide in the thread. That doesn't add up.
Dies to what? The only way I can die is if I refuse to play, there's a vote deadlock, and both sides agree to mutually kill me.
If I do manage to wound ALL scum, you know what I'm doing? I'm announcing that I will be guessing myself every night.
But killing me is not killing scum! The point of town is to kill scum, not to "not kill town". Lynching is good, even if most lynches hit town--because not lynching never hits scum! Lynching me, no lynch, vig'ing me, and vig'ing no one all advance town's win condition the exact same amount: zero.
No, killing you is killing not-town. Killing not-town is a perfectly acceptable strategy.
Why waste a kill, lynch or vig, on someone who is essentially confirmed non-scum and cannot help scum?
Literally my only mechanical impact on this game is sitting around and making sure scum send different people to do NKs.
Uh, what's the difference to them? A town-kill is a town-kill. Any kill on me is a kill not on them.
Wut.
This makes NO SENSE.
A vig kill on me is a vig kill 100% guaranteed to not be a vig kill on scum, and it removes my pesky don't-send-the-same-guy-twice restriction on them.
Of COURSE scum would like me dead!
I've already addressed the "attempting to trust scum and joint with them is nonsense suicide and I should always try to kill the unmarked ones instead" issue.
I mean, scum would certainly prefer a cop or such to be vig-killed over me. But early game I actually think (depending on their role powers) that they might prefer me dead to a vanilla townie.
Like my night action thing is certainly more annoying to scum than a vanilla.
What false things exactly? Yet again, jointing with scum is a dead end. Any deal or negotiation you can come up with breaks down on inspection, because neither side has the motivation to go through with their end. There is no stable equilibrium. Meanwhile, killing non-final unmarked scum is always exclusively good for me.
How would you play this role?
BEGIN NON-THIRD-PARTY CONTENT
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I actually don't like poggy right now and think this argument between Mirdini and him is hrurg. If Mirdini flips scum, I want to kill poggy too. (If Mirdini doesn't flip scum, I still probably want to?)
---------------------------------- END NON-THIRD-PARTY CONTENT
Okay, elaborate on the above and build a case. Stop stressing over your role and help hunt scum. If you are truly serious about helping the town, and are able to successfully lynch scum today, your town rep will go up a bajillion points.
On a forum, it's been awhile. I played in some at sirlin and some on gitp. I played a few IRC games a bit ago, but it's mostly real life games with various groups.
3x summary of good-points combo.
Hmm? I'm seriously not sure what you mean, the only "information" I can get is the event of wounding people, which I have zero motivation to conceal and small (but some) reason to tell town.
Remember, scum automatically knows they are wounded--they already know. Me concealing the event doesn't hurt them or advance my chances in any form.
----------
Now, this dumb role aside, I'm going to go read through all of Sol's posts again.
Okay I'm going to trust Arnnaria on Bolly's meta (for now) and assume the jumpiness is natural which makes me want to do this instead.
^ this vote reasoning is incredibly silly. the pm thing is not any sort of tell at all, "all game" is the duration of RVS which doesn't provide nearly solid enough of a basis to go accusing someone of being 'really fishy'.
and here's the copping out of Bolly turning up town if the lynch really goes through.
you are the one who wants to distrcat the towns resources away from killing scum and use them on a likely aid to the town?
you have got to be kidding me
unvote vote mirdini
Super defensiveness hear.
Vote Poggydude
Hes just to off the wall defensive for me to like it. It went from a kind of week point to him freaking out about it.
Also, I refuse to lynch a miller day one or neutrals etc. I have enough faith in our system that it shouldn't be a big problem. The biggest problem with lynching a miller is typically when the miller is in the game there is a way to check them still. And I view lynching neutrals especially the one that we have claimed as being ludicrous. He can't get much more "Pro-town" than that.
So we have our first dichotomy. Mirdini and friends are voting for Poggy, and Poggy and friends are voting for Mirdini.
So you think that one is scum and the other is not? Why can't they be town together? Why can't they be scum together?
Quote from Arnnaria »
As for Poggydude, I can't really comment on ongoing games, but from my understanding he comes off as rash and abrasive sometimes. The only problem is rash and abrasive =/= scum. Sometimes town players can be the same way.
This is a total non-opinion. Unfortunately, I think this makes you town. If you think one of the two is more likely to be scum than the other, which is it and why?
is it possible in your meta that somehow mirdini is a lyncher for cpi's role?
that happened in a game i was in, once.
scum ended up winning that game.
It's possible, but I think a Lyncher fits more into a Specialty game than a Normal game. I can't remember the last game a Lyncher was in, but it MIGHT have been Redux - kpaca was the Lyncher, and he won on Day 2 or something silly like that.
Arnn doesn't have any completed scum games. I've played in several with him though including one ongoing. This is his typical posting frequency. As far as content, he is playing much more middle of the road and less definitive then he normally does and if I had to guess it wouldn't surprise me if he is a neutral at this point in the game.
Why do you think he's a Neutral? Just for fence-sitting? Can you show me an example of a Neutral fence-sitting in a game? Why wouldn't a Neutral just pick a side and not care about the result?
Quote from EronTheRelentless »
See his most recent post as an example. While it is true that there are two groups that have formed, he has not made a truly definitive comme t on either side of the argument.
Oh good, we're on the same page in THAT regard, then.
I see reasons for malice because I do not see how someone could honestly make that misrepresentation.
... that said I. am arguing with a scumread who is drifting towards a townread.
AND NOBODY IS REACTING TO THIS.
Are killjoy and I invisible.
is that a thing.
ps: vote: Amnaria. because hooooly poop, that is certainly a Safe Post.
No, but if you expect us to pick up on something, you may want to direct our attention to it. That being said, kill-joy's meta is full of nonsensical town plays (which is why I always read him as scum, which is why I ignore him for the most part unless something happens), and Arnnaria's meta is rather jumpy. Surprisingly, I got a town Arn feel from the post that everyone is crying about.
i was breeding pigs in minecraft when i was posting that
now i'm farming blazes
(i'm waiting until i have enough info on playstyles to do my thing.)
(which is basically eating popcorn and watching people talk until i figure out wat do.)
You're making my brain bleed but I think I'm starting to like it.
However, I'm going to stick with my vote on poggy for the time being because that blatant counter-vote with the reasoning of 'LOLOLOL you're the one trying to misdirect town resources you have got to be kidding me' is well yeah.
The first relates to what people seem to view as useless - forcing the scum team to switch their assigned hitman to make the kill. If there are town tracker or watcher type roles, this means that the scum team may have to expose people that they don't wish to expose, rather than slightly more expendable or suspected members.
I had this same thought. Unfortunately, however, that keeps our Tracker guessing, if we have one.
Quote from Voxxicus »
I can't think of the precise name of the role off hand, but I ran a game three years ago that had a scum role where you could switch the night actions targeting two different people.
Bus Driver?
-
And another total non-post from Arnnaria! Keep racking them up, buddy.
Iso is an opportunist and a self-preservationist. A vote from him is to take any slack off the fact that he's not gonna be 100% here for a while.
I'm an opportunist, am I? Do tell me what you mean by this. And I can probably post a few times a day, particularly at Night, during this week. So I don't feel the need to "compensate" by dropping a vote, as you are seeming to imply. I won't argue that I'm always Iso-aligned, though.
You claim that Poggydude always feels like scum to you, and then that it is even stronger in this game, yet you seem to have a problem with people pressuring him. I don't understand that. If it's a strong scum feeling, why are you not helping pursue and pressure that read?
Would a vote really matter here? I've said my piece and made my point; now Sol has to respond. If you think a vote will get me there sooner, I could. But Sol's entire post was about the power of a vote. Saying you want somebody to die because you believe so strongly in them that you see them as potential lynch. I am not at that point. With Sol, I'm just suspicious of why Sol is hopping on one dude and not any others. I'm not going to put a vote on him, because I think if I did Sol's mindset would be to "shut down and attack" as opposed to "talk it out like civilized people do". So, for now a FoS is all I feel comfortable with given his position on what a vote means to him.
Because I'm all about playing nice until someone backs me into a corner. And I try my best not to back other people into corners unless I'm 100% sure they are scum.
You think that your vote, alone, would back Sol into a corner?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So you think that one is scum and the other is not? Why can't they be town together? Why can't they be scum together?
The could be both town or both scum. I'm just saying a dichotomy has occurred in the voting right now.
This is a total non-opinion. Unfortunately, I think this makes you town. If you think one of the two is more likely to be scum than the other, which is it and why?
Poggy, because he didn't try any off the wall stunts and he's laying rather low for Poggy.
***
I'm an opportunist, am I? Do tell me what you mean by this. And I can probably post a few times a day, particularly at Night, during this week. So I don't feel the need to "compensate" by dropping a vote, as you are seeming to imply. I won't argue that I'm always Iso-aligned, though.
I think you find situations you can use to your opportunity to attract other players into falling into a trap. I don't think it's a bad ting, I just think it's how you scumhunt.
The could be both town or both scum. I'm just saying a dichotomy has occurred in the voting right now.
Fair enough. Thought you were saying that their alignments were a dichotomy.
Quote from Arnnaria »
I think you find situations you can use to your opportunity to attract other players into falling into a trap. I don't think it's a bad ting, I just think it's how you scumhunt.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
i guess when i hit l-2 ill let the cat out of the bag...
i dont really know how to respond to the case on me(and i dont really do quote walls so i guess ill just try to respond to it in whole)
im simply trying to explain how i feel choco pi should be handled, i think vigging him would be a waste of resources at least day one, and it sounds like mirdini is agreeing with me. i wasnt trying to direct he cop to him. If you actually READ MY POST i was simply trying to explain that he would be a valid option.
although even cpi doesnt know what the result would be which although it will likely just be a neutral result i would probably no longer consider cpi a valid cop target.
i feel that mirdini and i just got heated early on and focused way to hard on how to handle this claim. i bet there are scum on both of our wagons and im going to be looking at each one when i have time.
for now im going to unvote .
if i missed anything or you have any point blank questions lmk
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Does the same apply when you kill already wounded target?
I assume, nothing suggests otherwise.
I still don't see this ever actually going off though, unless some mafia has a power that makes it worth the risk. (of killing while wounded) It's just a deterrent that forces them to "shuffle".
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Hmm, my post concerning Sol and poggy seemes to have... not actually got posted? Basically I'm still null on Sol and was curious if poggy has been scum in any games here before. (If so, links?)
I also picked up a few decent town reads so at least that was productive.
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Wasting the town's vig shot on someone who is not currently a threat is totally something scum would attempt to do.
Lynches they can control. Vig shots are wildcards.
That's wrong. There's no reason they wouldn't be ok with him being vigged. Optimally, they want him in LyLo. Sure.
But they wouldn't bat an eye if the vig shot hits a neutral instead of them.
Yeah, right. He will likely play to his wincon when that time comes. But LyLo is like.... maybe 6 Days away minimum. (No I didn't spend a whole lot of time doing the math there). Why should we worry about that NOW, with X Days to the point where that factor even COULD come into play??
Like I said, I have NO reason to want him dead. I don't win more with him dead right now. The only time he will serve my wincon more dead is if he's in a position where he may help the scum, which, as I said... it several days out.
That's not why I voted him.
I gave valid reason for my vote.
To recap: He's making a big deal about how later in the game, he will likely side with scum if the situation presents itself. My point is, that isn't relevent NOW. He's using that to try to direct the vig shot. Hence my vote.
Re: Silicon Valley: dude... I'm up near San Francisco.
And then clarified. And repeated his clarification at length, because people keep harping on this.
An early vig shot is super unlikely to hit scum, and doesn't give information the way an early lynch does! An early shot on a potentially dangerous third party ... is way higher EV than a "random" shot.
Ok, so now can you prove the malice behind my vote? I disagree that I'm wrong about what he's saying. I disagree further that there was malice behind it. But you obviously saw reasons for malice, so I wanna know what led you to think that.
And who said the vig shot would be random? Any vig who shoots random needs to not be a vig... lol.
The vig will obviously shoot whomever he deems most likely to be scum.
I'm STILL not seeing why we need to worry about Pi right now. Why should we waste our resources on someone who's very much not a problem right now?
That's where I'm at, at the moment. We basically spent ten pages arguing whether or not a neutral is a good lynch/vig candidate when the only true harm based on their claimed ability is at least a handful of days away.
Why would we waste time killing non mafia when we could actually be looking for scum? It feels to me that Mirinda has found a deflection point. I'm voting for this behavior at this time. We're nowhere near claim range and there are still several folks who haven't checked in.
Is there something specific that you are looking for comment on?
Come play IRC mafia! http://www.mibbit.com/#mafia@irc.esper.net
I don't spel gud.
So we have our first dichotomy. Mirdini and friends are voting for Poggy, and Poggy and friends are voting for Mirdini.
I don't think what Mirdini is saying is fearmongering; I think Mirdini is saying that the vig should not take his/her job lightly when deciding on who to shoot tonight. However, Mirdini has said this numerous times and numerous ways. Basically because whenever someone brings it up again, Mirdini feels it is necessary to go through the one or two scenarios that would befall the town if we let Chocolate Pi live. Chocolate Pi's vote here really screws my head up.
As for Poggydude, I can't really comment on ongoing games, but from my understanding he comes off as rash and abrasive sometimes. The only problem is rash and abrasive =/= scum. Sometimes town players can be the same way.
We're still a long way away from a lynch (9 votes), but I think we have our first feud going on right here and the lines in the sand are being drawn.
And on that note, I'll retire for the evening.
I have something
Not quite something specific exactly but what do you think Arnnaria right now?
that happened in a game i was in, once.
scum ended up winning that game.
Not enough hate in the world
Arnn doesn't have any completed scum games. I've played in several with him though including one ongoing. This is his typical posting frequency. As far as content, he is playing much more middle of the road and less definitive then he normally does and if I had to guess it wouldn't surprise me if he is a neutral at this point in the game.
See his most recent post as an example. While it is true that there are two groups that have formed, he has not made a truly definitive comme t on either side of the argument.
... that said I. am arguing with a scumread who is drifting towards a townread.
AND NOBODY IS REACTING TO THIS.
Are killjoy and I invisible.
is that a thing.
ps: vote: Amnaria. because hooooly poop, that is certainly a Safe Post.
....
huh.
chocopi when was the last time you played mafia/a variant?
because i do not remember you ever playing a thing in the places i have seen you. you are always running the show. u-u
(sotelaset can probably answer this)
... wait, no, there was a game on GitP but I got killed super early and kind of turbo-raged at some *******s in deadchat (goddamn suicide lynch-forcer on me day one, only it got stopped by deadline. So maf shot me. >_<) and then shut myself off from knowing the result because it was all kinds of shameful.
and I've heard about one or two games since then but I forget. He's always played more IRL anyway, I think.
Yes there's an invisible setting on this site.
No, I am not invisible. You might be though.
but that's not what I meant.
i was breeding pigs in minecraft when i was posting that
now i'm farming blazes
(i'm waiting until i have enough info on playstyles to do my thing.)
(which is basically eating popcorn and watching people talk until i figure out wat do.)
Sorry for the late confirmation. Reading back now and will get back to you all.
he is so scum. he reads like he's scratch-hunting, if you are a person who know what that means.
(it means a person who is scum and knows that they're in a game with a third party, and want to lynch them because it's a mislynch that benefits town so town will help them do it. and some town even give them town points for this! and then they are all smug and winning.)
vote arnnaria
I'm new around these parts, and haven't actually played a mafia game in almost two years. I'll try to keep up and be helpful, though - just my computer access has been sporadic at the start of this week.
My thoughts on the current things going on in this game:
Chocolate Pi: We're talking about this too much! He's not detrimental to the town at the moment, and while he's not a terrible vig kill night one (I'd rather it be done night one than later in the game when the vig has better information, if it's ever going to be done), it's still a waste of a resource. We should not dismiss the fact that it's an intentional fake claim, however unlikely, though!
Mirdini: I don't understand the animosity people have towards him so far. He's advocating shooting a neutral role that can be detrimental to our best interests in end game on night one, before town as a whole has a lot of solid reads and information. Yes, maybe he's advocating that a little too strongly, but if it is something he genuinely believes and fears, that's not necessarily a bad thing!
Bolly: I dislike your heavy thread presence without actually saying anything. Merely commenting without any actual opinions in posts clutters the thread, and means that genuine information and reads are scattered and harder to process. Fluff is not a good thing! It's been stated that it is the norm for you, however, so I'll treat it as a null event, rather than town or scum. But I implore you to make your posts have a purpose rather than merely commenting. Condense!
Kill Joy: Thank you for not continuing the slight Role Playing outside of the random voting! It's a fluffy thing that makes it harder for me to get reads on people, which is exasperating.
Acionyx: I like you. There doesn't need to be massive walls of REASONS to pressure somebody, and it is refreshing that someone sees that! My strongest town read so far.
Arnnaria: As much as I like Acionyx, I dislike you, so far. It's a similar reason to my distrust of Bolly, in a way - it feels like you are commenting for thread presence rather than to actually say anything. Almost every single thing you have posted has felt measured and safe, rather than say anything that could be inflammatory or opinionated in the least! The exception is one comment directed at Bolly considering him being high strung as a possible scum indicator. We would do well to consider this a possible distancing attempt, maybe, depending on how the game unfolds!
I'll Vote: Arnnaria for the time being, but I would like to see you try and actually poke people that you think are potentially scummy, rather than just comment on the state of the game and the neutral survivor. Thanks!
i like you a lot
how do you feel about the laset/kill-joy thingy
Laset: I generally have liked his posts and reasoning as they seem to align with my own thoughts for the most part. I'm less inclined to think that Kill-joy is trending towards town than he seems to think, which makes me slightly wary. This is a scum play that I have utilized in the past: attack relatively hard before deciding you're okay with their reactions, and writing them off as town. It means you have a presence in the thread as someone doing things that benefit town, and using your buddies to accomplish that - making them look more town in the process. Just making the note to keep an eye on future interactions!
The end result of looking back over both of those players is that Laset feels slightly town to me, and Kill-joy slightly scum, but neither is an extremely strong read.
The first relates to what people seem to view as useless - forcing the scum team to switch their assigned hitman to make the kill. If there are town tracker or watcher type roles, this means that the scum team may have to expose people that they don't wish to expose, rather than slightly more expendable or suspected members.
The second is that having a pre-determined vig target is never a good idea unless all roles are known! I can't think of the precise name of the role off hand, but I ran a game three years ago that had a scum role where you could switch the night actions targeting two different people. If we decide the Vig should absolutely shoot Chocolate Pi, it would be unfortunate for the next day to start and two active town members be dead.
I can understand how people might view his role as being somewhat informative, though. But it relies on him telling the truth, and there are times when not telling the truth will be in his own best interests, and not necessarily the town's. So while it looks like a good argument on the surface, the premise itself is flawed.
But can we please stop wasting time and thread space on the revealed neutral role that has very little impact on the game?
Frankly I'm not feeling too good about Cpi's 3rd party claim.
Like someone had pointed out, he can still win with the mafia and that in itself is already off for me. I don't like the way that he was successful though, in distracting most of the players and having them discuss on what to do with him rather than start looking around for someone else. He claimed 3rd party. Okay, fine but it doesn't seem like his role is too threatening since he can only 'wound' people. I wouldn't recommend that he would be a vig target for N1 merely because he hasn't done anything incredibly scummy that would cause the downfall of town.
So let's look at the players involved:
Mirdini (4): Chocolate Pi, Kill-joy, poggydude, EronTheRelentless
Chocolate Pi is in OMGUS mode. But a vote against him is dumb when there are other methods to get rid of him.
FOS: Chocolate Pi
Kill-Joy has been logical for the most part, and actively defending certain players metas.
Poggydude is acting like the same old Poggydude that I know. He always reads scum to me, but even moreso this game.
Eron has provided little reasoning for his vote except that he doesn't like what's going down.
Final Score: Salve Regulars 3, New Players to these boards 1
poggydude (4): Mirdini, SciSolaris, Iso, Acionyx
Mirdini is actively taken up the lynch as her personal mission against poggy. But, she's been trying to get Chocolate Pi on the chopping block too. I don't know Chocolate's meta, but maybe Mirdini does and that's why the vote.
SciSolaris made a sweeping case against Poggy, but I've seen Poggy play like this before. It's his meta. There really is nothing in the case that definitely points Poggy as scum.
FOS: SciSolaris
Iso is an opportunist and a self-preservationist. A vote from him is to take any slack off the fact that he's not gonna be 100% here for a while.
Acionyx I don't have a read on.
Final Score: Salve Regulars 1, New Players to these boards 3
***
Does everyone see how the lines in the sand are being drawn? People, either willingly or unwillingly, are siding with what they know to be true based upon where they play. Just because I'm not taking a part of either wagon doesn't mean that I'm waffling -- I just have no interest in lynching Poggydude or Mirdini today. So If I had to vote, my vote is on SciSolaris. I'll explain in the next response.
really. really you guys
So, half your post is on Poggy's reaction to Chocolate Pi. What about Mirdini's reaction to Chocolate Pi? How is Miridini's reaction any less scummy than Poggys?
FoS: SciSolaris
Arnnaria's post still doesn't sit very well with me. Why are you turning it into a regulars vs. newer players analysis? That tells us absolutely nothing, and just reiterates my belief that you are posting to simply post, without anything of significance within them.
You claim that Poggydude always feels like scum to you, and then that it is even stronger in this game, yet you seem to have a problem with people pressuring him. I don't understand that. If it's a strong scum feeling, why are you not helping pursue and pressure that read?
You point a finger at SciSolaris for making a sweeping case against Poggydude, but then defend Poggydude because... he always feels like scum? How is this in any way logical? You even state previously that it's a strong feeling for you.
Intentionally trying to turn this into a divide between regulars and new players is just a terrible thing to do. Take a step back, assume competence and coincidence. A whopping three to one divide is not significant in the least!
No, you're right it might not be significant. I just like to point out trends in voting and that's one of the trends I noticed. I'm not trying to wave the bloody flag and start a war between the two people.
As for Poggy, if he doesn't something that I consider extremely scummy my vote will be on him. But so far he's just done what everyone has been doing: talking about Chocolate Pi. SciSolaris builds an entire case around him talking about Chocolate Pi. I guess that's fine and good, but Sol needs to look at other people who are doing the same thing: Mirdini in particular.
with silly things.
like doing the fos thing again instead of voting. why aren't you voting for sol if you think he's scum?
Yeah that can be a real problem on these boards for this game.
"Around here things move so quickly you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place."
Would a vote really matter here? I've said my piece and made my point; now Sol has to respond. If you think a vote will get me there sooner, I could. But Sol's entire post was about the power of a vote. Saying you want somebody to die because you believe so strongly in them that you see them as potential lynch. I am not at that point. With Sol, I'm just suspicious of why Sol is hopping on one dude and not any others. I'm not going to put a vote on him, because I think if I did Sol's mindset would be to "shut down and attack" as opposed to "talk it out like civilized people do". So, for now a FoS is all I feel comfortable with given his position on what a vote means to him.
well, um.
good luck. with that.
Come play IRC mafia! http://www.mibbit.com/#mafia@irc.esper.net
Because I'm all about playing nice until someone backs me into a corner. And I try my best not to back other people into corners unless I'm 100% sure they are scum.
I'm not 100% sure Sol is scum. I'm just feeling as if Sol's vote is unjustified against Poggy when literally half the town has been commentating on the "claim heard round the world."
Ok! First off I have news from the mod.
Round 1:
Do I know if I successfully wound a target tonight? If so do I know which player I wound?
If you have a duel you will be informed character's role name. [sic] (but not the player's name)
Do the mafia know when they are wounded?
Yes.
If the cop checks me, what is the result?
I cannot answer that.
If I die, but my stated victory conditions are still met, do I still win?
You must be alive to meet your victory condition. (either one)
How many third parties are in this game?
I cannot answer that.
Round 2:
If I wound someone tonight, is it announced publicly?
No, only you and that mafia member are informed.
When I wound someone does the NK target still die? (I am pretty sure personally)
Yes.
Is "wound" a game keyword?
If you are asking if other roles also wound other players, I cannot answer that.
If I have wounded all mafia members, am I notified? Do I remain in the game.
You are notified when you wound a player, but otherwise no. You remain in the game. (survival is require [sic] for your victory condition)
This is all pretty much what I has assumed. The only thing I didn't expect was learning role names, which is... kinda nice? It's mostly useful if I get lucky early.
To repeat my previous Day's promises, or rather conclusions on optimal behavior:
----------
Serious curiosity: How would YOU have played this role? If I "lay low", I'm just a survivor but with extra conditions on winning.
Like I can't imagine anything but a D1 claim being optimal. Unlike a normal survivor, this way town has reason to keep me alive on a leash for ~4-5 days. (To screw with scum killer choice.)
For the record after thinking about it for a night I think I know how this role came to be.
I mean, this is literally the only path I see to victory. If town wins, I have a very high chance of winning. The more scum die early, the higher my odds are. I want this game to get down to one scum ASAP.
I actually gave myself a ~25% chance of being killed N1 going into this. That vanished the moment the vig-talk hit the fan.
If I had a remotely viable path to win with scum, I'd have pursued that or at least sat on the fence.
Like this role does not have a high-% chance of winning, do you agree? The fact that I'm here and we are having this conversation is evidence alone that my mafia win condition is exactly as crappy as stated.
WINE? No, it's just a crappy role.
Also, I can't be lying about my wounding action in terms of "oh well maybe he could wound town and kill townies too"; because if I could wound town then moment that happens whatever jig I was playing would be up.
(inb4 another wounding role)
You are missing something big, the same thing Mirdini keeps ignoring. How do I know that scum is telling the truth in either case? They have zero reason to actually tell me who is or isn't wounded, and zero reason to actually pick the game-win option that lets me win. In fact, due to the possibility of role-power shenanigans, their optimal play is always to kill the OTHER townie and leave me hanging.
You know what my best victory odds are? Lynching the unmarked scum. This always results in me winning unless scum NK's me out of spite!
Let's say scum #1 of 2 says "if you don't joint with us, we will kill you." We've already established that believing them and trying to win with them is a non-solution, so they actually have nothing to offer me. And if scum really does want to suboptimally throw out their win possibilities to kill me instead of town, well they can do that tonight.
Dies to what? The only way I can die is if I refuse to play, there's a vote deadlock, and both sides agree to mutually kill me.
If I do manage to wound ALL scum, you know what I'm doing? I'm announcing that I will be guessing myself every night.
But killing me is not killing scum! The point of town is to kill scum, not to "not kill town". Lynching is good, even if most lynches hit town--because not lynching never hits scum! Lynching me, no lynch, vig'ing me, and vig'ing no one all advance town's win condition the exact same amount: zero.
Why waste a kill, lynch or vig, on someone who is essentially confirmed non-scum and cannot help scum?
Literally my only mechanical impact on this game is sitting around and making sure scum send different people to do NKs.
Uh, what's the difference to them? A town-kill is a town-kill. Any kill on me is a kill not on them.
Wut.
This makes NO SENSE.
A vig kill on me is a vig kill 100% guaranteed to not be a vig kill on scum, and it removes my pesky don't-send-the-same-guy-twice restriction on them.
Of COURSE scum would like me dead!
I've already addressed the "attempting to trust scum and joint with them is nonsense suicide and I should always try to kill the unmarked ones instead" issue.
I mean, scum would certainly prefer a cop or such to be vig-killed over me. But early game I actually think (depending on their role powers) that they might prefer me dead to a vanilla townie.
Like my night action thing is certainly more annoying to scum than a vanilla.
What false things exactly? Yet again, jointing with scum is a dead end. Any deal or negotiation you can come up with breaks down on inspection, because neither side has the motivation to go through with their end. There is no stable equilibrium. Meanwhile, killing non-final unmarked scum is always exclusively good for me.
How would you play this role?
BEGIN NON-THIRD-PARTY CONTENT
----------------------------------
I actually don't like poggy right now and think this argument between Mirdini and him is hrurg. If Mirdini flips scum, I want to kill poggy too. (If Mirdini doesn't flip scum, I still probably want to?)
----------------------------------
END NON-THIRD-PARTY CONTENT
On a forum, it's been awhile. I played in some at sirlin and some on gitp. I played a few IRC games a bit ago, but it's mostly real life games with various groups.
3x summary of good-points combo.
Hmm? I'm seriously not sure what you mean, the only "information" I can get is the event of wounding people, which I have zero motivation to conceal and small (but some) reason to tell town.
Remember, scum automatically knows they are wounded--they already know. Me concealing the event doesn't hurt them or advance my chances in any form.
----------
Now, this dumb role aside, I'm going to go read through all of Sol's posts again.
I (trivially) changed one or two words in each line.
This is something all people should do.
That babysitting.
I like this guy.
Super defensiveness hear.
Vote Poggydude
Hes just to off the wall defensive for me to like it. It went from a kind of week point to him freaking out about it.
Also, I refuse to lynch a miller day one or neutrals etc. I have enough faith in our system that it shouldn't be a big problem. The biggest problem with lynching a miller is typically when the miller is in the game there is a way to check them still. And I view lynching neutrals especially the one that we have claimed as being ludicrous. He can't get much more "Pro-town" than that.
Uhh...everything else?
So you think that one is scum and the other is not? Why can't they be town together? Why can't they be scum together?
This is a total non-opinion. Unfortunately, I think this makes you town. If you think one of the two is more likely to be scum than the other, which is it and why?
It's possible, but I think a Lyncher fits more into a Specialty game than a Normal game. I can't remember the last game a Lyncher was in, but it MIGHT have been Redux - kpaca was the Lyncher, and he won on Day 2 or something silly like that.
Why do you think he's a Neutral? Just for fence-sitting? Can you show me an example of a Neutral fence-sitting in a game? Why wouldn't a Neutral just pick a side and not care about the result?
Oh good, we're on the same page in THAT regard, then.
No, but if you expect us to pick up on something, you may want to direct our attention to it. That being said, kill-joy's meta is full of nonsensical town plays (which is why I always read him as scum, which is why I ignore him for the most part unless something happens), and Arnnaria's meta is rather jumpy. Surprisingly, I got a town Arn feel from the post that everyone is crying about.
You're making my brain bleed but I think I'm starting to like it.
Good plan!
I had this same thought. Unfortunately, however, that keeps our Tracker guessing, if we have one.
Bus Driver?
-
And another total non-post from Arnnaria! Keep racking them up, buddy.
I'm an opportunist, am I? Do tell me what you mean by this. And I can probably post a few times a day, particularly at Night, during this week. So I don't feel the need to "compensate" by dropping a vote, as you are seeming to imply. I won't argue that I'm always Iso-aligned, though.
I think my brain hemorrhage is now our lovechild. What do you want to name it?
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Votes create pressure. Pressure creates reactions.
You think that your vote, alone, would back Sol into a corner?
HE IS A THIRD-PARTY
Sorry for my quote-walls, guys. Just making sure I don't miss anything in my absence.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Back to studying
Fair enough. Thought you were saying that their alignments were a dichotomy.
Example?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
i dont really know how to respond to the case on me(and i dont really do quote walls so i guess ill just try to respond to it in whole)
im simply trying to explain how i feel choco pi should be handled, i think vigging him would be a waste of resources at least day one, and it sounds like mirdini is agreeing with me. i wasnt trying to direct he cop to him. If you actually READ MY POST i was simply trying to explain that he would be a valid option.
although even cpi doesnt know what the result would be which although it will likely just be a neutral result i would probably no longer consider cpi a valid cop target.
i feel that mirdini and i just got heated early on and focused way to hard on how to handle this claim. i bet there are scum on both of our wagons and im going to be looking at each one when i have time.
for now im going to unvote .
if i missed anything or you have any point blank questions lmk
The biggest example I can think of is from an ongoing game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I assume, nothing suggests otherwise.
I still don't see this ever actually going off though, unless some mafia has a power that makes it worth the risk. (of killing while wounded) It's just a deterrent that forces them to "shuffle".
----------
Hmm, my post concerning Sol and poggy seemes to have... not actually got posted? Basically I'm still null on Sol and was curious if poggy has been scum in any games here before. (If so, links?)
I also picked up a few decent town reads so at least that was productive.