The purpose of this thread is to provide a place where Salvation's Mafia players can discuss their problems and opinions, appeal decisions to the Council, suggest improvements to the current system, and consult with Council members about pretty much anything. This thread will also function as a Helpdesk for our MTGS Mafia Moderators, so if you feel that somebody is violating site rules in a Mafia game, this is the place to bring it up. The Mods and Council will then hash out the problem as we feel fits best.
We want to know what we can do to make Mafia more fun for everyone, so please make sure to let us know.
Thanks in advance. Have at it.
Current Council Members: Azrael, shadowlancerx, Silvercrys3467, Zionite
Mafia Articles:
Anyone with an interest in submitting mafia articles for the benefit of new players, sparking debate, and further developing design theory may now submit articles to me, which I'll edit and pass on to a Mafia Secretary to post in our Rules & Articles thread.
Articles can then be discussed in the Mafia Theory thread, which we have a redirect to in among our stickied threads.
Quote from Ecophagy »
Announcing! MTGS Mafia now has a Discord community! For those that don't know, Discord is a mix of Skype, IRC, and Teamspeak, combining public text and voice channels with the option for private comms as well. The idea is to use it as a tool for community integration both as a functional replacement for the clan thread, as well as a place to have informal Mafia-related discussion. We'll also be using it to post announcements like when signups go up, so you won't even have to log into the forum to keep track of things!
To try it out, click here: https://discord.gg/vhbtZak There is an app you can download if you want, but it works fine in a browser. Spread this link to anyone you know who plays, even if they're not active any more. The busier we can get it, the more we can bring our community together and grow it!
So, it seems that I've been appointed to the mafia council, since the last time I logged on. I wasn't informed that I was even up for consideration beforehand, but I'm glad to have the opportunity.
At the moment, we have a very loose organization of council members: Axelrod, Vecna, Fadeblue, and now me (I have no idea what happened to Reed). But to the best of my knowledge, there have been no significant changes or actions since the formation of this group, and there may be a bit of a disconnect between the council members and each other, as well as the rest of the community. And in general, the actual duties of council members has never been clearly defined.
So as my first act in "office", I'd like to ask for suggestions from the mafia-playing population on what the council can do to help improve the salvation mafia community, and perhaps make the entire process a little more organized.
For some time, Vecna has been forced to kind of fly by the seat of his pants in creating rules. We've managed to hold things together, but there have also been tense, uneasy moments. The decision-making process sometimes seems arbitrary, tempers flare, and arguments erupt. My hope is that we can avoid these problems in the future.
I'd like to use this thread to discuss these kinds of issues, provide a medium for forum-goers to discuss their grievances without gumming up sign-ups and game threads, and allow the council to interact to discuss disciplinary actions, appoint replacements and additions to the council, and resolve disputes.
To provide structure for that:
Issue Number 1: Vecna, hereafter referred to as Chairman of the Council, has done a quite a bit of work handling the every-day business of the forum, by reviewing setups, organizng the queue, and occasionally stepping in when the system breaks down. In that capacity, he's been a very valuable resource to the community.
Still, issues do crop up from time to time, and when the decision-making process is left up to a single person, problems can arise.
So, in the event that a problem does arise (ex: whether or not to delete Hvir's sign-up thread), I propose that the plaintiff be allowed to appeal the decision to a council member, either in this thread, or by private PM. Then, the council as a whole can meet here to discuss the issue, and if necessary, vote on the outcome.
As we currently have 4 members, giving the three members-at-large a single vote and giving the Council Chairman (Vecna) an additional half-vote in order to break ties, should provide an adequate system.
I'm perfectly open to other suggestions, however.
Issue Number 2: What other duties should the council members-at-large perform?
Should they review set-ups for hosts? Create standardized forum rules? Should they appoint additional council members and replacements themselves, or allow the public to decide? Should they establish criteria for distinguishing between specialty and regular games? At the moment, we don't seem to have anything concrete. Also, should there be a term-limit for council members?
Whew. That seems to be quite a lot to talk about for now, so I'll leave it at that and get back to working on my report. I hope to hear back from everyone on this, since it's an issue that's going to affect us all.
I think that those are some great ideas. The council should work on a set of distinct guidelines for "Specialty"(hard)-"Regular"(normal)-"N00b"(easy) games. There should be standards for which games can play in and all that fun stuff. I like the idea of the court thing. Congrats on council though.
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A noob game has always been what it was the first noob game here. It will only come when there is demand, will always run 0-1 games completed people, unless there is some reason the rest of the council votes this down. (Which I see as unlikely)
ISSUE1 Stance:
Delete the thread.
I say this because when the next normal game ends, Hvir will be allowed to do his thing. The fact that people may already be involved with x-files disqualifies them from being in the game, which is circumvented if they have already signed up for it. (I am not good at phrasing logic in my posts, as longtime readers may know. It makes sense, just not to anyone else ;-)) Thus, the deletion of the thread will allow for the signups to occur at the appropriate time, and allow equal chance for people who would not have been eligible for the first sign up (and disqualify people who would be in the other normal game)
ISSUE2: Stance
Should they review set-ups for hosts? Create standardized forum rules? Should they appoint additional council members and replacements themselves, or allow the public to decide? Should they establish criteria for distinguishing between specialty and regular games? At the moment, we don't seem to have anything concrete. Also, should there be a term-limit for council members?
The core council should all have enough experience to be able to moderate a conflict within the game, between players or a player and a moderator (if the need arises.) They should also have enough experience to judge the balance and how interesting a game design is. (I get most of these, but the first post on the signups says anyone may review a setup.)
About specialties: If the maker thinks it is complicated enough to be a specialty, they should submit it to one of the council to check whether they agree. If not, then they have a full normal game design. If it is non-standard enough, it should be accepted (if balanced) as a specialty. Any blind game, in my opinion, would be specialty, as would an invitational, were we to run them.
A term limit for members, again in my opinion, would be more of a hassle than benefit. The term limit would have to be something like 6 months, because shorter means that people are just switching in and out all the time, and longer makes it nearly unnecessary to have the term lengths. Every new councilmember would need to learn the duties and jobs associated with the position (okay, thats a lie, there is nothing to do here. ;)) and that would take more effort than necessary to keep the signups running smoothly.
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MAENTWROG (n. Welsh)
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake. SR
As much as I want a reserved spot in WD2, I fail to see any particular reason to keep the signups. Random 2 is the most likely game to end next, but it won't be over for a month or (likely) even more. The availability of participants is very likely to change in that time, and it isn't very fair to any newcomers to the site to not only have to wait until the current games end, but also for games with reserved slots to that won't end for months to also finish. The argument that everyone who signed up deserves a slot is the only one I can think of that seems like a serious objection to deleting the thread, but it is obviously entirely specious.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
2. *Kisses languorously Hvir*. However, despite my being in, I must agree that the sign-ups for World Dom 2 should be deleted and cancelled, to avoid potential mess with over-signed-up people, changing availabilities, etc.
I've already PMed several members who asked me about this, and I have no problem with resetting the sign-up list and creating a new sign-up thread when my turn finally comes around.
Sticky'd for now, despite my preference to not have too many threads stickied.
It's obvious that the signups for World Domination 2 should not be counted; I'm wondering why the question even arose in the first place. In any case, it's beside the point of this thread.
For me the hot mafia issue I'd like the council to address is idle players. At the moment games suffer a lot from players signing up then basically lurking. Other players pressure them a bit and sometimes Mods replace them, but what's really needed is a blanket rule: Do not sign up to Mafia games if you aren't going to post in them.
I don't want to propose specific rules on this topic, but what we have now isn't working well.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
May I suggest making up clear rules (as much as possible, obv.) as to what differenciates specialties from normal games?
I'm with you on this. I also would like to see a list of specialty games in queue. Perhaps I am beating a dead horse a bit here, but some of us have important things in our life. . . family, holidays, travel, and work to name a few. Mafia sometimes (all the time) has to take a back seat to these other priorities. A list of games and their order would certainly help those of us who would like to mod a game to plan our schedule out so that we can put all of the necessary time and effort into each game in order to make it an enjoyable one.
Once that is accomplished, I would appreciate it if the council privately discussed the manner in which requests from players and game mods are handled. I believe that a simple, valid question deserves a simple, direct answer. If that answer takes some work or some 'figuring out', then let the person know that you'll research the question and answer at your next opportunity. Please remember that the purpose of the council is not only to run the operation of games smoothly, but also so that we can get the most enjoyment out of them as possible. A little customer service never hurt any operation. I think this is an operation that could benefit from some.
I think the matter of idle players is being dealt with well by the game mods. I, as a player or game mod, don't tolerate inactive players. I understand that sometimes we have to be away for a couple of days because real life is what it is, but I think that we have some habitual offenders that do nothing but distract from the game. Perhaps a possible solution is for game mods to report to the council any player that has been deemed to be "inactive" so much that the mod replaced the player AND any player that self-nominated for replacement. These two lists should be kept separately, as these are two different issues. Give "mod-initiated" and "self-initiated" replacements a different weight (perhaps points). Then, whenever a certain threshold has been reached, that player is not welcome to play here for a specific period of time.
As far as Azrael's issues go. . .
Issue 1: I believe that this system will work with the people that we have "in office" right now. I think that we should make sure that we have a system that will work no matter who is on the council. I think it makes sense to have members who are respected as members AND players on the council. (How Azrael got on there, I'll never know. ;)) Another option to giving the chairman an additional half-vote would be to appoint a person to a position similar to that of the Vice President's position in the Senate - he only gets to vote if the issue is tied.
Issue 2: I don't know that term limits are necessary if the council continually listens to the feedback they receive from players and game mods. I know that members of the council like to participate in the games just like everyone else, so I think that players sending in games to be checked and placed on the list should not send it to a council member without advanced notice. Example: fadeblue may really be looking forward to playing in my upcoming "View Askew Mafia" (shameless self-promotion), but he can't if I send him the entire game set-up to check for me.
Establishing clear guidelines between specialty and normal games can only help. The entire process of the game should be as open and transparent as possible. This makes the jobs of the game mods and the council members easier, which in turn makes the games more enjoyable for everyone. And isn't that why we're here?
Issue 2: First of all, I don't think term limits are needed. Second, I think when a council member needs to be replaced, having the other three nominate a member would be fine.
As for specialty games, I don't see how you can put rules on what constitutes a specialty game outside of saying "Roles and/or rules must deviate from the norm." Everyone is calling for more clarification, but I just don't see what more could be said.
Now here's my more original thoughts:
1. Why are we only limited to run 3 games at a time? Sign-ups fill fast on this site, and people are always complaining about never being on at the right time. Add to that the massive waiting list to mod a normal game, and I think we've got enough demand to hold 4 games at a time(plus newb games).
2. Why are speciaty games signed up for differently then normal ones? It seems like to run a normal game, you have to plan it out at least a year in advance, whereas to run a specialty, you just have to submit yours at just the right time. It has always seemed weird to me.
I propose we do something more along the lines of running 2 normal, 2 specialty, and 1 newb at a time, and actually have a proper signup list for the specialty section.
EDIT: I almost forgot...I agree with bat that more needs to be done about inactive players. In theory, that should be the job of the mod, but sometimes mods don't take action when they need to, and then whole games die of inactivity. I think a few basic guidelines would help in preventing this.
I'm in complete agreement with CropCircles about running more games and less tolerance for inactive players.
The problem is that more games leads to more inactive players. Lots of people like to sign up for games, but the list of actual active players is too short to really justify 4 games at a time.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I also would like to see a list of specialty games in queue. A list of games and their order would certainly help us.
Once that is accomplished, I would appreciate it if the council privately discussed the manner in which requests from players and game mods are handled. I believe that a simple, valid question deserves a simple, direct answer. If that answer takes some work or some 'figuring out', then let the person know that you'll research the question and answer at your next opportunity. Please remember that the purpose of the council is not only to run the operation of games smoothly, but also so that we can get the most enjoyment out of them as possible.
I think the matter of idle players is being dealt with well by the game mods. Perhaps a possible solution is for game mods to report to the council any player that has been deemed to be "inactive" so much that the mod replaced the player AND any player that self-nominated for replacement. These two lists should be kept separately, as these are two different issues. Give "mod-initiated" and "self-initiated" replacements a different weight (perhaps points). Then, whenever a certain threshold has been reached, that player is not welcome to play here for a specific period of time.
Issue 2: Example: fadeblue may really be looking forward to playing in my upcoming "View Askew Mafia" (shameless self-promotion), but he can't if I send him the entire game set-up to check for me.
Establishing clear guidelines between specialty and normal games can only help.
As I have said, I am making to specialty list right now, and I have 4-5 confirmations, and am waiting so that I can be sure I have everyone listed. Drop this issue, okay?
I dont understand the second paragraph.
On issue 2: I have kept out of playing in mafia here specifically so that people could use me to check their games. I think I am an alright checker for large issues with games (perhaps not with fine-tuning, as I have only run a couple games. Shut up about that last one on News, mmk? ;))
If you want to write up what you think are guidelines (or anyone does) please do so, and submit them to the council (through PM, preferably, in this case, so people do think they are official when they are posted in this thread.) I do not want to, simply because my opinion is that trying to define all games into one category or the other would be very complex, and there would be errors in the system. Like I said, if you have an idea for this, by all means, share it with us.
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As I have said, I am making to specialty list right now, and I have 4-5 confirmations, and am waiting so that I can be sure I have everyone listed. Drop this issue, okay?
This is the first notification I have had of such a list. I appreciate it and consider the issue dropped.
I dont understand the second paragraph.
Paragraph 2 is a simple statement of my vision of what council/game mod and council/player interaction should be. I am a very direct person. (I think everyone know that about me by now.) If a person asks a question of the council at large or a council member, that person deserves a straight-forward answer.
On issue 2: I have kept out of playing in mafia here specifically so that people could use me to check their games. I think I am an alright checker for large issues with games (perhaps not with fine-tuning, as I have only run a couple games. Shut up about that last one on News, mmk? ;))
I wasn't there for that, but I'm sure it was a hoot.
If you want to write up what you think are guidelines (or anyone does) please do so, and submit them to the council (through PM, preferably, in this case, so people do think they are official when they are posted in this thread.) I do not want to, simply because my opinion is that trying to define all games into one category or the other would be very complex, and there would be errors in the system. Like I said, if you have an idea for this, by all means, share it with us.
I'll work on something. I think it would be a good idea for the council to solicit suggestions as far as guidelines go from those who have some experience in setting up games. Send game mods a PM asking them what they feel constitutes a "standard" game. The council could then compare and contrast the lists sent in by the game mods, add their own ideas, then reveal the final qualifications of a standard game.
Anything outside those guidelines should be considered a "specialty". (It is far easier to define standard than specialty.)
Standard Mafia roles can be defined as those commonly listed on Wiki: Reporter, Gun-smith, Night-watch man, doc, Vigilante, cop, masons, SK, etc.
If a game contains multiple scum groups, or if over 50% of the roles are non-standard, or if the mod has included unique mechanics that warrant special consideration, or if the game is an invitational, or if it is a blind mafia game, it can be listed as a specialty game.
Standard Mafia roles can be defined as those commonly listed on Wiki: Reporter, Gun-smith, Night-watch man, doc, Vigilante, cop, masons, SK, etc.
If a game contains multiple scum groups, or if over 50% of the roles are non-standard, or if the mod has included unique mechanics that warrant special consideration, or if the game is an invitational, or if it is a blind mafia game, it can be listed as a specialty game.
Sounds reasonable to me.
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Standard Mafia roles can be defined as those commonly listed on Wiki: Reporter, Gun-smith, Night-watch man, doc, Vigilante, cop, masons, SK, etc.
If a game contains multiple scum groups, or if over 50% of the roles are non-standard, or if the mod has included unique mechanics that warrant special consideration, or if the game is an invitational, or if it is a blind mafia game, it can be listed as a specialty game.
Would World Domination Mafia have counted as specialty or regular, given that there were neutral roles which carried separate victory conditions, and several 'false' roles, like France and the USA?
Would World Domination Mafia have counted as specialty or regular, given that there were neutral roles which carried separate victory conditions, and several 'false' roles, like France and the USA?
The inability to unvote would have made the original World Dom a specialty game, if nothing else. I can't remember exactly how many special roles were included, but I'd tend to believe it would fall under the specialty category for that, as well.
The inability to unvote would have made the original World Dom a specialty game, if nothing else. I can't remember exactly how many special roles were included, but I'd tend to believe it would fall under the specialty category for that, as well.
Off the top of my head, we had:
Nepal, who could ONLY vote, and nothing else, not even basic posts
France, who was an inspector who always got innocent results
USA, who had a wide variety of powers, none of which worked
Australia and New Zealand, who were neutral and had separate victory conditions from the rest of the town
Saudi Arabia, who had the ability to force other people to vote a certain way
China, with the ability to gag other players
WDM2 won't have these exact roles, but will have roles which are outside the norm for Mafia. Is there a process by which I can apply to have my upcoming game be transferred to the Specialty list?
First, try PMing it to Vecna to see if it matches the criteria. From there, if we want to make sure you keep your spot in the order, we'll need to have two specialties going at once, and one (?) regular game. I don't believe that would cause any major headaches, though: we'd just need to drop the "one regular, one specialty" rule (if that's still in effect), and just make it two games per person, period.
Well, most of what I was going to comment on when I started reading this thread has been answered. Though I do like Puzzle's idea of a common sign up thread, and I think it warrants consideration by the council.
It will definitely make games more interesting. As a host, if you post a boring-sounding game, people might just skip over you and go for the next game.
If the council does use Puzzle's idea(which for the most part, I support), there would need to be a better way to keep lurkers under control. As it is, one must be an active member of MTGSalvation to get into a game, because it's the only reliable way to get into a game. If we have a constant sign-up list, any member might stumble in here, see some kind of game, and sign-up before they even really know what it is. And then we may never hear from them again.
Although, with the common sign-up thread, we could also have a replacement list, which may help with that problem.
How about requiring a newb game completion before allowing sign up for a standard or specialty?
Beautiful. Seconded.
I kind of like the invitation thing, but I don't think it would be good as a rule. If a mod wants to do it, fine, but I don't think we should force anyone to.
The WD2 thing is prolly settled. Delete thread, restart signups.
IMO, there should be a signup review thread. There are more people then just the council who can review a game, and that should help spread the work load.
Also, why only run 1 specialty game at a time? A lot of games straddle the line (like WD1 would have) and according to the 2 scum group things thats an easy tell for the town. Why not just have 3 games running at once, no matter if any or multiple ones are specialty?
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How about requiring a newb game completion before allowing sign up for a standard or specialty?
I disagree with this, mostly because I stared out in a standard game and did fine. Specialty games, certainly, and it might be advisable to make sure they're read games before, but I don't think we should bar them from standard games.
I'm siding with Rhino. He and I were drafted into 8-bit to replace Ankh-Morphorkian and Pibbly. At the time, I had thirty posts. So I went in, made everyone hate me...and survived to day 10. Really, newb Mafias are interesting, but they are not necessary to perform (somewhat) fine.
And I'm assuming that, if the rule does pass, it will not be retroactive (as in, nobody who didn't do one will not need to)?
I'm siding with Rhino. He and I were drafted into 8-bit to replace Ankh-Morphorkian and Pibbly. At the time, I had thirty posts. So I went in, made everyone hate me...and survived to day 10. Really, newb Mafias are interesting, but they are not necessary to perform (somewhat) fine.
And I'm assuming that, if the rule does pass, it will not be retroactive (as in, nobody who didn't do one will not need to)?
Rhinos first game was lotr Mafia. You are the reason I support this rule.
Well im my first mafia I was teribly noobish, but I got killed before I posted, so that was that. I lurked through the game (I was dead, so this was ok) and came out knowing enough to play fine in the next mafia I joined (World dom 1 mafia).
I think you should either lurk/read through a game or play one noob game. I'm not sure that this could be enforced, but it's just a game, so if people lie, they lie
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@ Rhino and Xyre: The point of requiring a newb game is to make sure that players can commit themselves before they start lurking in larger games and make sure they know what they're getting into. You guys may have done fine, but other players *cough*Leilani*cough* have not. If we were to have a common sign-up list, these players will likely be more common, so it may be needed to keep games running.
As far as the set-up for newbie games go, I think that should be up to the mod(I was under the impression that it was).
Although there's some interesting discussion going on here, we really haven't heard from the council regarding the common sign-up list. Are you guys even considering it?
Nepal, who could ONLY vote, and nothing else, not even basic posts
France, who was an inspector who always got innocent results
USA, who had a wide variety of powers, none of which worked
Australia and New Zealand, who were neutral and had separate victory conditions from the rest of the town
Saudi Arabia, who had the ability to force other people to vote a certain way
China, with the ability to gag other players
WDM2 won't have these exact roles, but will have roles which are outside the norm for Mafia. Is there a process by which I can apply to have my upcoming game be transferred to the Specialty list?
I just dont like this being classified as specialty, because even though it has many odd roles, it is not something that would require much adaptation to play in, as it is just funky new roles. I would see Orb mafia or Town Mafia (mafias with significant gameplay changes or things like locations) as a specialty. This is mainly so we do not end up with every single game being specialty, because nobody really wants to run a basic game (from what I have seen, excluding noob mafia, of course)
I agree with the one completed game to be allowed to play in a specialty.
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I took specialty to mean that it was a game with non-standard roles or non-standard abilities. For example it was my understanding that an insane/naive/paranoid cop was not often used, but still considered standard while a ghost-cop was specialty. If it takes a huge change in game mechanics (dollar mafia, hospital mafia, sk mafia, mafia mafia, etc) to be specialty, then I guess I was WAY off.
Well, a huge change is definately something that will turn a game into a specialty.
Whats a ghost cop?
A couple new roles would not be enough to make a game specialty, and a large amount would make the game seem purposely made with so much so that the host could get in the specialty list.
I do not think this is mentioned, but I think that from this point on, specialty hosts should have a requirement of having been a host previously.
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Ah. I have seen that a few times. It is probably not considered standard, but I do not think it would be inventive or unusual enough to be counted as a specialty only sort of role. Uh. Yeah.
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I always sorta mentally defined specialty games as games with variant townie win conditions (protect the totem, prevent the *specific character* from dying) and games with large additions to the rules (Dollar Mafia). However, I suppose an exception must be made for games with an exceptionally large portion of abnormal win conditions and roles.
I disagree with [requiring a n00b game to play in a standard or specialty0], mostly because I stared out in a standard game and did fine. Specialty games, certainly, and it might be advisable to make sure they're read games before, but I don't think we should bar them from standard games.
I also started in a standard game and did fine. (heck, I lived to the near end).
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Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
I think the 1 specialty, 1 normal game rule should be changed to a 2 game rule. Perhaps this is only because I don’t understand why the rule came to be in the first place. Could someone explain to me why this rule was instigated in the first place?
I think the 1 specialty, 1 normal game rule should be changed to a 2 game rule. Perhaps this is only because I don’t understand why the rule came to be in the first place. Could someone explain to me why this rule was instigated in the first place?
Agree compleetely.
I mean, just let me play in both games! Put me on the probation list if I lurk!
Sorry for whining so much here, I know it's annoying sometimes. I was just really looking forward to playing in both.
I mean, look: the only rational argument is it incites lurking, right?
The thing is, that's a danger for some people, but not others.
The purpose of this thread is to provide a place where Salvation's Mafia players can discuss their problems and opinions, appeal decisions to the Council, suggest improvements to the current system, and consult with Council members about pretty much anything. This thread will also function as a Helpdesk for our MTGS Mafia Moderators, so if you feel that somebody is violating site rules in a Mafia game, this is the place to bring it up. The Mods and Council will then hash out the problem as we feel fits best.
We want to know what we can do to make Mafia more fun for everyone, so please make sure to let us know.
Thanks in advance. Have at it.
Current Council Members: Azrael, shadowlancerx, Silvercrys3467, Zionite
Retired/Emeritus: AsianInvasion, DYH, Iso, Ecophagy
Mafia Articles:
Anyone with an interest in submitting mafia articles for the benefit of new players, sparking debate, and further developing design theory may now submit articles to me, which I'll edit and pass on to a Mafia Secretary to post in our Rules & Articles thread.
Articles can then be discussed in the Mafia Theory thread, which we have a redirect to in among our stickied threads.
At the moment, we have a very loose organization of council members: Axelrod, Vecna, Fadeblue, and now me (I have no idea what happened to Reed). But to the best of my knowledge, there have been no significant changes or actions since the formation of this group, and there may be a bit of a disconnect between the council members and each other, as well as the rest of the community. And in general, the actual duties of council members has never been clearly defined.
So as my first act in "office", I'd like to ask for suggestions from the mafia-playing population on what the council can do to help improve the salvation mafia community, and perhaps make the entire process a little more organized.
For some time, Vecna has been forced to kind of fly by the seat of his pants in creating rules. We've managed to hold things together, but there have also been tense, uneasy moments. The decision-making process sometimes seems arbitrary, tempers flare, and arguments erupt. My hope is that we can avoid these problems in the future.
I'd like to use this thread to discuss these kinds of issues, provide a medium for forum-goers to discuss their grievances without gumming up sign-ups and game threads, and allow the council to interact to discuss disciplinary actions, appoint replacements and additions to the council, and resolve disputes.
To provide structure for that:
Issue Number 1: Vecna, hereafter referred to as Chairman of the Council, has done a quite a bit of work handling the every-day business of the forum, by reviewing setups, organizng the queue, and occasionally stepping in when the system breaks down. In that capacity, he's been a very valuable resource to the community.
Still, issues do crop up from time to time, and when the decision-making process is left up to a single person, problems can arise.
So, in the event that a problem does arise (ex: whether or not to delete Hvir's sign-up thread), I propose that the plaintiff be allowed to appeal the decision to a council member, either in this thread, or by private PM. Then, the council as a whole can meet here to discuss the issue, and if necessary, vote on the outcome.
As we currently have 4 members, giving the three members-at-large a single vote and giving the Council Chairman (Vecna) an additional half-vote in order to break ties, should provide an adequate system.
I'm perfectly open to other suggestions, however.
Issue Number 2: What other duties should the council members-at-large perform?
Should they review set-ups for hosts? Create standardized forum rules? Should they appoint additional council members and replacements themselves, or allow the public to decide? Should they establish criteria for distinguishing between specialty and regular games? At the moment, we don't seem to have anything concrete. Also, should there be a term-limit for council members?
Whew. That seems to be quite a lot to talk about for now, so I'll leave it at that and get back to working on my report. I hope to hear back from everyone on this, since it's an issue that's going to affect us all.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
ISSUE1 Stance:
Delete the thread.
I say this because when the next normal game ends, Hvir will be allowed to do his thing. The fact that people may already be involved with x-files disqualifies them from being in the game, which is circumvented if they have already signed up for it. (I am not good at phrasing logic in my posts, as longtime readers may know. It makes sense, just not to anyone else ;-)) Thus, the deletion of the thread will allow for the signups to occur at the appropriate time, and allow equal chance for people who would not have been eligible for the first sign up (and disqualify people who would be in the other normal game)
ISSUE2: Stance
The core council should all have enough experience to be able to moderate a conflict within the game, between players or a player and a moderator (if the need arises.) They should also have enough experience to judge the balance and how interesting a game design is. (I get most of these, but the first post on the signups says anyone may review a setup.)
About specialties: If the maker thinks it is complicated enough to be a specialty, they should submit it to one of the council to check whether they agree. If not, then they have a full normal game design. If it is non-standard enough, it should be accepted (if balanced) as a specialty. Any blind game, in my opinion, would be specialty, as would an invitational, were we to run them.
A term limit for members, again in my opinion, would be more of a hassle than benefit. The term limit would have to be something like 6 months, because shorter means that people are just switching in and out all the time, and longer makes it nearly unnecessary to have the term lengths. Every new councilmember would need to learn the duties and jobs associated with the position (okay, thats a lie, there is nothing to do here. ;)) and that would take more effort than necessary to keep the signups running smoothly.
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
So, in the event that a problem does arise (ex: whether or not to delete Hvir's sign-up thread),
I saw that and responded to that. My brain doesnt work apparently. And some of you know this.
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
Open discussion.
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Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
You kidding? Day 2 will be done in a month.
I've already PMed several members who asked me about this, and I have no problem with resetting the sign-up list and creating a new sign-up thread when my turn finally comes around.
It's obvious that the signups for World Domination 2 should not be counted; I'm wondering why the question even arose in the first place. In any case, it's beside the point of this thread.
I don't want to propose specific rules on this topic, but what we have now isn't working well.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I'm with you on this. I also would like to see a list of specialty games in queue. Perhaps I am beating a dead horse a bit here, but some of us have important things in our life. . . family, holidays, travel, and work to name a few. Mafia sometimes (all the time) has to take a back seat to these other priorities. A list of games and their order would certainly help those of us who would like to mod a game to plan our schedule out so that we can put all of the necessary time and effort into each game in order to make it an enjoyable one.
Once that is accomplished, I would appreciate it if the council privately discussed the manner in which requests from players and game mods are handled. I believe that a simple, valid question deserves a simple, direct answer. If that answer takes some work or some 'figuring out', then let the person know that you'll research the question and answer at your next opportunity. Please remember that the purpose of the council is not only to run the operation of games smoothly, but also so that we can get the most enjoyment out of them as possible. A little customer service never hurt any operation. I think this is an operation that could benefit from some.
I think the matter of idle players is being dealt with well by the game mods. I, as a player or game mod, don't tolerate inactive players. I understand that sometimes we have to be away for a couple of days because real life is what it is, but I think that we have some habitual offenders that do nothing but distract from the game. Perhaps a possible solution is for game mods to report to the council any player that has been deemed to be "inactive" so much that the mod replaced the player AND any player that self-nominated for replacement. These two lists should be kept separately, as these are two different issues. Give "mod-initiated" and "self-initiated" replacements a different weight (perhaps points). Then, whenever a certain threshold has been reached, that player is not welcome to play here for a specific period of time.
As far as Azrael's issues go. . .
Issue 1: I believe that this system will work with the people that we have "in office" right now. I think that we should make sure that we have a system that will work no matter who is on the council. I think it makes sense to have members who are respected as members AND players on the council. (How Azrael got on there, I'll never know. ;)) Another option to giving the chairman an additional half-vote would be to appoint a person to a position similar to that of the Vice President's position in the Senate - he only gets to vote if the issue is tied.
Issue 2: I don't know that term limits are necessary if the council continually listens to the feedback they receive from players and game mods. I know that members of the council like to participate in the games just like everyone else, so I think that players sending in games to be checked and placed on the list should not send it to a council member without advanced notice. Example: fadeblue may really be looking forward to playing in my upcoming "View Askew Mafia" (shameless self-promotion), but he can't if I send him the entire game set-up to check for me.
Establishing clear guidelines between specialty and normal games can only help. The entire process of the game should be as open and transparent as possible. This makes the jobs of the game mods and the council members easier, which in turn makes the games more enjoyable for everyone. And isn't that why we're here?
Issue 2: First of all, I don't think term limits are needed. Second, I think when a council member needs to be replaced, having the other three nominate a member would be fine.
As for specialty games, I don't see how you can put rules on what constitutes a specialty game outside of saying "Roles and/or rules must deviate from the norm." Everyone is calling for more clarification, but I just don't see what more could be said.
Now here's my more original thoughts:
1. Why are we only limited to run 3 games at a time? Sign-ups fill fast on this site, and people are always complaining about never being on at the right time. Add to that the massive waiting list to mod a normal game, and I think we've got enough demand to hold 4 games at a time(plus newb games).
2. Why are speciaty games signed up for differently then normal ones? It seems like to run a normal game, you have to plan it out at least a year in advance, whereas to run a specialty, you just have to submit yours at just the right time. It has always seemed weird to me.
I propose we do something more along the lines of running 2 normal, 2 specialty, and 1 newb at a time, and actually have a proper signup list for the specialty section.
EDIT: I almost forgot...I agree with bat that more needs to be done about inactive players. In theory, that should be the job of the mod, but sometimes mods don't take action when they need to, and then whole games die of inactivity. I think a few basic guidelines would help in preventing this.
[The Family]
V/LA: 3/21-3/24 & 3/27-3/29
The problem is that more games leads to more inactive players. Lots of people like to sign up for games, but the list of actual active players is too short to really justify 4 games at a time.
Mafia MVP BM Mafia
Mafia MVP Matrix Mafia
As I have said, I am making to specialty list right now, and I have 4-5 confirmations, and am waiting so that I can be sure I have everyone listed. Drop this issue, okay?
I dont understand the second paragraph.
On issue 2: I have kept out of playing in mafia here specifically so that people could use me to check their games. I think I am an alright checker for large issues with games (perhaps not with fine-tuning, as I have only run a couple games. Shut up about that last one on News, mmk? ;))
If you want to write up what you think are guidelines (or anyone does) please do so, and submit them to the council (through PM, preferably, in this case, so people do think they are official when they are posted in this thread.) I do not want to, simply because my opinion is that trying to define all games into one category or the other would be very complex, and there would be errors in the system. Like I said, if you have an idea for this, by all means, share it with us.
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
Paragraph 2 is a simple statement of my vision of what council/game mod and council/player interaction should be. I am a very direct person. (I think everyone know that about me by now.) If a person asks a question of the council at large or a council member, that person deserves a straight-forward answer.
I wasn't there for that, but I'm sure it was a hoot.
I'll work on something. I think it would be a good idea for the council to solicit suggestions as far as guidelines go from those who have some experience in setting up games. Send game mods a PM asking them what they feel constitutes a "standard" game. The council could then compare and contrast the lists sent in by the game mods, add their own ideas, then reveal the final qualifications of a standard game.
Anything outside those guidelines should be considered a "specialty". (It is far easier to define standard than specialty.)
Standard Mafia roles can be defined as those commonly listed on Wiki: Reporter, Gun-smith, Night-watch man, doc, Vigilante, cop, masons, SK, etc.
If a game contains multiple scum groups, or if over 50% of the roles are non-standard, or if the mod has included unique mechanics that warrant special consideration, or if the game is an invitational, or if it is a blind mafia game, it can be listed as a specialty game.
Sounds reasonable to me.
-[thread=14456]The [Untitled] Avatar and Sig shop![/thread] Avatar from:[thread=25376] [Epic Graphics][/thread]
Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
Would World Domination Mafia have counted as specialty or regular, given that there were neutral roles which carried separate victory conditions, and several 'false' roles, like France and the USA?
The inability to unvote would have made the original World Dom a specialty game, if nothing else. I can't remember exactly how many special roles were included, but I'd tend to believe it would fall under the specialty category for that, as well.
Well, then the plan I'm creating for my mafia will DEFINITELY be specialty.:p It's looking good, although deciding on mafias is harder than I thought.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Off the top of my head, we had:
Nepal, who could ONLY vote, and nothing else, not even basic posts
France, who was an inspector who always got innocent results
USA, who had a wide variety of powers, none of which worked
Australia and New Zealand, who were neutral and had separate victory conditions from the rest of the town
Saudi Arabia, who had the ability to force other people to vote a certain way
China, with the ability to gag other players
WDM2 won't have these exact roles, but will have roles which are outside the norm for Mafia. Is there a process by which I can apply to have my upcoming game be transferred to the Specialty list?
Although, with the common sign-up thread, we could also have a replacement list, which may help with that problem.
[The Family]
I kind of like the invitation thing, but I don't think it would be good as a rule. If a mod wants to do it, fine, but I don't think we should force anyone to.
[The Family]
The WD2 thing is prolly settled. Delete thread, restart signups.
IMO, there should be a signup review thread. There are more people then just the council who can review a game, and that should help spread the work load.
Also, why only run 1 specialty game at a time? A lot of games straddle the line (like WD1 would have) and according to the 2 scum group things thats an easy tell for the town. Why not just have 3 games running at once, no matter if any or multiple ones are specialty?
I disagree with this, mostly because I stared out in a standard game and did fine. Specialty games, certainly, and it might be advisable to make sure they're read games before, but I don't think we should bar them from standard games.
And I'm assuming that, if the rule does pass, it will not be retroactive (as in, nobody who didn't do one will not need to)?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Rhinos first game was lotr Mafia. You are the reason I support this rule.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I think you should either lurk/read through a game or play one noob game. I'm not sure that this could be enforced, but it's just a game, so if people lie, they lie
As far as the set-up for newbie games go, I think that should be up to the mod(I was under the impression that it was).
Although there's some interesting discussion going on here, we really haven't heard from the council regarding the common sign-up list. Are you guys even considering it?
[The Family]
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I just dont like this being classified as specialty, because even though it has many odd roles, it is not something that would require much adaptation to play in, as it is just funky new roles. I would see Orb mafia or Town Mafia (mafias with significant gameplay changes or things like locations) as a specialty. This is mainly so we do not end up with every single game being specialty, because nobody really wants to run a basic game (from what I have seen, excluding noob mafia, of course)
I agree with the one completed game to be allowed to play in a specialty.
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
Whats a ghost cop?
A couple new roles would not be enough to make a game specialty, and a large amount would make the game seem purposely made with so much so that the host could get in the specialty list.
I do not think this is mentioned, but I think that from this point on, specialty hosts should have a requirement of having been a host previously.
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
I also started in a standard game and did fine. (heck, I lived to the near end).
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Agree compleetely.
I mean, just let me play in both games! Put me on the probation list if I lurk!
Sorry for whining so much here, I know it's annoying sometimes. I was just really looking forward to playing in both.
I mean, look: the only rational argument is it incites lurking, right?
The thing is, that's a danger for some people, but not others.
2 games are even allowed already, as long as they are one special and one normal, so you can't argue it’s because of lurker potential.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3