MTG Salvation

Quote from Zionite

It's not so much that League games should be plain, but they should be fair. Each team or player should have equal chances of winning and the key to winning should be standard Mafia strategy (like wise action targets, behavioral analysis, etc.). If one team starts with an advantage, or winning is not solely based on classic mafia tactics, then it's probably not a good game to score.

A classic Mafia tactic for the scum team is to Nightkill skilled town players and/or town players with power roles. A hypothetical Chime team in a "Standard" game would be unable to do so. I see this as a distinct problem: The town would just mass-claim and win handily.

Also, to say that Chimes were "tested" is a steep exaggeration, given that they dominated the only MTGS game they were in because Cyan and his reviewer/s were forced to guess as to what numbers would work best without any solid evidence to work from. I would consider "tested" to mean that the mechanic has been in multiple (3+) games and hosts have a general idea how to balance it against several competing factors.

I haven't read the Chimes game; I'm only going off of what the other judges are telling me about it. I think not having a mafia kill isn't that big of a departure from standard play; it's just shifting the focus to survival rather than action targets, which is fine. If all players know this when signing up then I don't really see why it can't work. If anything, the focus on behavior rather than setup is more viable, not less. But you might be right that it's not ready for League play as far as the numbers go.

Quote from Ecophagy

Under current proposals, they would probably not. While they are kind of a variation on "Survivor", I think they are sufficiently different to fall foul of "no weird neutrals" policy. That would, of course, make scoring easier by ignoring such corner cases, but if you think league games should permit such roles do say.


If League players/judges want high complexity games thrown into the mix, then I don't see why Specialty level games can't be reviewed by the judges and then possibly allowed. However, I was under the impression that the bulk of leagu games would be fairly plain: hence why making the Normal queue more standardised would allow them to be suitable for the league.

I feel part of the problem is different = complexity, which is not the case. There are different set-ups that are fairly simple, while their are complex set-ups that are similar to the expected norm.

The no weird neutrals in my mind is meant to prevent the games from being needlessly complex and causing players to have to play in strange ways to prevent from losing.

A better test of whether a role or a neutral is acceptable is what I call the "Guardman" test.

• Does the role force players in the game to adopt non-standard playstyles to compensate?
• Does the role make reading players complicated?
• Is the role difficult to understand?
• Does the role force the player with it to make sub-optimal choices in order to win?
• Has the role appeared in some way before to give a baseline on how it will work?

• No, players still have to hunt an anti-town team.
• No, because the chime team still has too apply the same tactics as a standard scum-team in order to get mislynches.
• No, the role is fairly straightforward and easy to understand how it works.
• No. In fact it supports better playstyle as Chimes don't have the luxury of solving their problems through a nightkill.
• Yes. Only once and with problems, but the vast majority of those problems where because the town didn't know the Chimes would win if they didn't kill them. This problem is solved with knowledge of them existing and being anti-town. But otherwise they worked how they were supposed to, by being an inevitable win if they survive. And with that they are like a survivor team and survivors have had many tests throughout games.

So I believe Chimes do fit the criteria for a normal game and would like to see them in a normal game/

Quote from Zionite

@Ecophagy: Aren't we still debating on what roles count as "Basic"? How are we going to agree one what counts as "Normal"?

It's not so much that League games should be plain, but they should be fair. Each team or player should have equal chances of winning and the key to winning should be standard Mafia strategy (like wise action targets, behavioral analysis, etc.). If one team starts with an advantage, or winning is not solely based on classic mafia tactics, then it's probably not a good game to score.

Perhaps the same could be said for all mafia games.

Quote from Seppel

Quote from Zionite

@Ecophagy: Aren't we still debating on what roles count as "Basic"? How are we going to agree one what counts as "Normal"?

It's not so much that League games should be plain, but they should be fair. Each team or player should have equal chances of winning and the key to winning should be standard Mafia strategy (like wise action targets, behavioral analysis, etc.). If one team starts with an advantage, or winning is not solely based on classic mafia tactics, then it's probably not a good game to score.

Perhaps the same could be said for all mafia games.

Anti-town neutrals notwithstanding?

I don't think the League is a good place for cults and double mafias, let alone chimes.

Keep it simple, especially if you're trying to arrive at a standard scoring rubric.

I like fun wrinkles, but we're trying to arrive at something that is consistently fair, well-balanced, and doesn't contain any nasty surprises or discrepancies in difficulty. If you're fundamentally changing the nature of the scum team or their win conditions in certain games, it's not possible to have a consistent standard of difficulty for the town and scum.

I agree regarding Cults and multiscum but not about the Chimes. The point of the 6th game in a League season is to be something fun where the players can test their skills in a more complex setup, and I see no reason why at least the Beta season shouldn't start off simple and get a little more going for them as it progresses. For one, it gives newer players who have signed up for the League a chance to see what kind of games they play the best in and enjoy the most. Basically, there's no reason why we shouldn't at least finish up the Beta season as it is so that we can adjust the rubric accordingly for the 6th game of each season since there's no telling what may pop up in those. :3 For that reason, I'd really like both Guardman and RobRoy to be able to run their games in the Beta.

Edit: No one has commented on my 'grab bag' idea.

I think chimes are good, since we need to play with chimes so we know if they're a balanced and unhated role. I also like how this role has had no name before now and is now called a "chime." Congrats, Cyan.

Re: Grab bag: I think there will be too many of those to only use them as the last game of a season. Feed them to the PCQ/FTQ.

Related: Does anybody want to become certified to review a Specialty? If so, I have a setup that needs looking at that Xyre will then follow up on.

Ooh ooh pick me.

I promise to comment on this Normal issue on Sunday.

dan, go ahead and shoot Xyre a PM about it, then.

In an attempt to get as much discussion as possible on the redefinition of Normals, I have invited everyone on the hosting list to chip in (and CC'd it to Iso).

I also don't think that Chimes count as "Normal". If the core idea of a "Normal" going forward is "good old fashioned Mafia", then Chimes being a fundamental change to the Mafia team and therefore the game itself is very far outside of that boundary. If a "Chime" game wants to be run as a mini, or a separate [League] game, or even a Specialty that the league wishes to score, that's all fine. I would simply not agree to them being used in a "Normal" game.

Quote from Zionite »

It's not so much that League games should be plain, but they should be fair. Each team or player should have equal chances of winning and the key to winning should be standard Mafia strategy (like wise action targets, behavioral analysis, etc.). If one team starts with an advantage, or winning is not solely based on classic mafia tactics, then it's probably not a good game to score.

I contend that any game which contains any sort of additional mechanic cannot be won solely based on classic mafia tactics. The introduction of non-standard additional rules inherently alters the way in which the game is played beyond traditional play.

I would strongly agree with that, Eco.

As somebody who somehow ends up scum FAR more often than town, I like the idea of a nightkill, and would enjoy joining games that best give me that ability.

Let me ask a question though before I rant too much: Would games that would be of the Chime variety be known before signing up?

I suppose that depends on the mod. Everyone and their mother knows Guardman's game we're trying to push through the League has Chimes.

Quote from Iso

I suppose that depends on the mod. Everyone and their mother knows Guardman's game we're trying to push through the League has Chimes.

Yeah, on second thought calling the game Chime Mafia doesn't do much to hide that fact.

Also I think Chimes have to be disclosed in someway at the beginning of the game just by the very nature of them and the fact that if they aren't hunted they will win just via inevitability.

So, how long should sign-ups be open to a game before we decide they're not going to fill?

Now that Eco has sent out the PM regarding the revamp of the Normal queue, is the '1 month to rebuild your setup' in effect? What will happen to the setups that have been submitted to the League already? What will we do for the last round of the League? Can we still use a submission for that one? Because it was originally intended to be Specialty-esque complexity.

Quote from Iso

So, how long should sign-ups be open to a game before we decide they're not going to fill?

I guess 10 days? Two weeks? It kind of depends because it can be hard to tell the difference between a game not filling because no-one wants to play it ever and there just not being enough cyclical demand. It happens so infrequently that it can stay on a case-by-case basis as it is now.

Quote from Iso »

Now that Eco has sent out the PM regarding the revamp of the Normal queue, is the '1 month to rebuild your setup' in effect?

I wouldn't say so yet, but if the discussion continues to be quiet, I (we the council) shall make an official announcement with the new guidlines, starting the "1 month to revamp" period. We have plenty of time leeway here, since FHF has barely started. The PM I sent was intended to get more input rather than signal the start of change.

Quote from Iso »

What will happen to the setups that have been submitted to the League already?

Given that the plan is to incorporate the league into games which would run anyway, rather than have the very seperate nature of games being submitted to the league, I would personally prefer setups which have been set aside for the League to be entered into existing queues, and/or submitted to the FTQ. If a host feels like this will result in an unfairly long wait (as they've been holding a game back for the league for a long time), then we can look at moving them up the appropriate queue. They can, of course, still count towards league scores if the host wishes.

Quote from Iso »

What will we do for the last round of the League? Can we still use a submission for that one? Because it was originally intended to be Specialty-esque complexity.

Nominally speaking, the "last game" of the beta season can probably still be run under the [League] tag as a separate game. Ideally, it would go through the FTQ or be run not actually at the end but during a high demand period to avoid pressuring the playerbase. In future, I would be less happy about this, but would also be very open to the idea of setting aside one FTQ slot a year/season for a "League finale" game.

Really? That seems inefficient at best - aside from the obvious outliers of Kill Bill and Chosen, when's the last time an FTQ took under 6 months to complete?

Quote from Iso

Really? That seems inefficient at best - aside from the obvious outliers of Kill Bill and Chosen, when's the last time an FTQ took under 6 months to complete?

That's a good point. It looks like we average 2-2.5 FTQs a year., which isn't very many at all. Hm.

While I can see the appeal of ending a League season with a FTQ game, they do take longer to finish because of the higher complexity level (players have to spend time figuring out the mechanics in addition to figuring out each other). I think the choice is between only using Normals/Standards for the League or only using established and publicly revealed Specialty-level mechanics for the final League game in a season (although this takes away much of the fun).

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of accepting League submissions like we're doing now for just the last round.

Ideally I would like to see the beta of the league go through without changes to how games are decided on. Part of this is biased because the entire change puts my game in a weird no-man's land because of the following:

1. Because of Chimes it apparently can't be a normal.

2. But because of I designed it to be a low powered normal, it doesn't belong in specialty. And I don't believe it belongs in FTQ or will really have a shot of being chosen in the FTQ due to the fact it was designed to be a low-powered normal.

Quote from Azrael

I don't think the League is a good place for cults and double mafias, let alone chimes.

Keep it simple, especially if you're trying to arrive at a standard scoring rubric.

I like fun wrinkles, but we're trying to arrive at something that is consistently fair, well-balanced, and doesn't contain any nasty surprises or discrepancies in difficulty. If you're fundamentally changing the nature of the scum team or their win conditions in certain games, it's not possible to have a consistent standard of difficulty for the town and scum.

Cosign

Quote from Guardman

Ideally I would like to see the beta of the league go through without changes to how games are decided on. Part of this is biased because the entire change puts my game in a weird no-man's land because of the following:

1. Because of Chimes it apparently can't be a normal.

2. But because of I designed it to be a low powered normal, it doesn't belong in specialty. And I don't believe it belongs in FTQ or will really have a shot of being chosen in the FTQ due to the fact it was designed to be a low-powered normal.

Basically, this.

Quote from kpaca

Quote from Azrael

I don't think the League is a good place for cults and double mafias, let alone chimes.

Keep it simple, especially if you're trying to arrive at a standard scoring rubric.

I like fun wrinkles, but we're trying to arrive at something that is consistently fair, well-balanced, and doesn't contain any nasty surprises or discrepancies in difficulty. If you're fundamentally changing the nature of the scum team or their win conditions in certain games, it's not possible to have a consistent standard of difficulty for the town and scum.

Cosign

kpaaaain! Welcome back!

Quote from kpaca

Quote from Azrael

I don't think the League is a good place for cults and double mafias, let alone chimes.

Keep it simple, especially if you're trying to arrive at a standard scoring rubric.

I like fun wrinkles, but we're trying to arrive at something that is consistently fair, well-balanced, and doesn't contain any nasty surprises or discrepancies in difficulty. If you're fundamentally changing the nature of the scum team or their win conditions in certain games, it's not possible to have a consistent standard of difficulty for the town and scum.

Cosign

And all was right with the world.

Godspeed, kpaca. Glad to have you back.

Quote from Guardman

Ideally I would like to see the beta of the league go through without changes to how games are decided on. Part of this is biased because the entire change puts my game in a weird no-man's land because of the following:

1. Because of Chimes it apparently can't be a normal.

2. But because of I designed it to be a low powered normal, it doesn't belong in specialty. And I don't believe it belongs in FTQ or will really have a shot of being chosen in the FTQ due to the fact it was designed to be a low-powered normal.

By defintition, it would count as a Specialty on grounds of being a significant departure from the traditional game. Not all Specialties have to be increbibly complex.

While we can just let the beta legaue proceed as planned, it would mean that our Normal re-launch will be hampered by the continuing problem of the League siphoning away part of the playerbase.

Quote from Ecophagy

While we can just let the beta legaue procede as planned, it would mean that our Normal re-launch will be hampered by the continuing problem of the League siphoning away part of the playerbase.

Eco, have you been drunk each time you've posted recently? Just wondering.

That said, we DO have strict deadlines in the League, so the games can only last but so long. This would give ample time to every Normal host to revise their setups.

Quote from Ecophagy

Quote from Guardman

Ideally I would like to see the beta of the league go through without changes to how games are decided on. Part of this is biased because the entire change puts my game in a weird no-man's land because of the following:

1. Because of Chimes it apparently can't be a normal.

2. But because of I designed it to be a low powered normal, it doesn't belong in specialty. And I don't believe it belongs in FTQ or will really have a shot of being chosen in the FTQ due to the fact it was designed to be a low-powered normal.

By defintition, it would could as a Specialty on grounds of being a significant deparrture from the traditional game. Not all Specialities have to be increbily complex.

While we can just let the beta legaue procede as planned, it would mean that our Normal re-launch will be hampered by the continuing problem of the League siphoning away part of the playerbase.

The problem is:

1. That it is not a significant departure from a traditional game. It has some tweaks but it will play like your standard normal game. I think anybody that has seen the set-up will attest to that.

2. It does not meet the expectations of what people expect from a specialty game. This is a big one as I've learned managing expectations to be big. If you go into a game expecting a specialty but instead get a game that is more like a low powered normal that causes a rift in view and can lead to dissatisfaction that I can do nothing about. It's like going into a normal and getting a specialty or going into a regular game and the mod not telling you its a bastard game. And as long as it has a specialty tag on it there will be expectations I won't be able to meet no matter how hard I try.

If you could send me a copy of the setup then we can get on the same page and see what can be done.

Quote from Ecophagy

If you could send me a copy of the setup then we can get on the same page and see what can be done.

I'll send it to you later today hopefully as I am at work now.

Quote from kpaca

Quote from Azrael

I don't think the League is a good place for cults and double mafias, let alone chimes.

Keep it simple, especially if you're trying to arrive at a standard scoring rubric.

I like fun wrinkles, but we're trying to arrive at something that is consistently fair, well-balanced, and doesn't contain any nasty surprises or discrepancies in difficulty. If you're fundamentally changing the nature of the scum team or their win conditions in certain games, it's not possible to have a consistent standard of difficulty for the town and scum.

Cosign

Heh, this guy.

On the topic, the rubric needs stressing in the beta season. We know already that it can handle a regular game fairly. What we're not sure of is whether it can handle non-standard games. That's why we're running the micro; the rubric should work for whatever we throw at it. So at least in beta, I'm all for whatever crazy setups we can use (within reason) to make sure we have wiggle room for a variety of setups (like Chimes).

So I guess we need to decide how Normal is Normal before Season 1 of the League.

Quote from Guardman

2. But because of I designed it to be a low powered normal, it doesn't belong in specialty. And I don't believe it belongs in FTQ or will really have a shot of being chosen in the FTQ due to the fact it was designed to be a low-powered normal.

I'm in the same boat. This is generally my chief issue with discussing this.

I feel like anything I say will be biased by self-interest, but (as I was discussing with Xyre separately), I think that a bridge needs to exist between "good old fashioned mafia" and the FTQ/PTQ/Specialties of the world. Stuff like Neon Genesis & Cyberpunk are good examples of this, from my perspective.

I also just don't want to derail the current conversation, thus not bringing it up previously.

E: I'm now retroactively nominating/voting Kpaca for POTY 2012.

Quote from Ecophagy

If you could send me a copy of the setup then we can get on the same page and see what can be done.

I'd like to see it too, please.

Quote from ganderin_dan

I feel like anything I say will be biased by self-interest, but (as I was discussing with Xyre separately), I think that a bridge needs to exist between "good old fashioned mafia" and the FTQ/PTQ/Specialties of the world. Stuff like Neon Genesis & Cyberpunk are good examples of this, from my perspective.

I also appreciate giving hosts some freedom (and getting name-dropped).
However, I can also see the pressing need for queue reorganization. I think that having more involved Normals run in the Specialty queue will be good overall in terms of reining in complexity creep. I believe players will eventually realize that Specialties don't have to be ground-breaking to be interesting and fun.

Quote from ganderin_dan

E: I'm now retroactively nominating/voting Kpaca for POTY 2012.

/barn

I think the problem is that players have come to expect that of Specialties. I, for one, am more inclined to sign up for games that have an interesting aspect to it that I would not see in another game. Other times, I just want to play straight up Mafia. But Specialties and FTQs, which are high in demand from most of the playerbase...I feel like they have to meet certain expectations.

Quote from Iso

I think the problem is that players have come to expect that of Specialties. I, for one, am more inclined to sign up for games that have an interesting aspect to it that I would not see in another game. Other times, I just want to play straight up Mafia. But Specialties and FTQs, which are high in demand from most of the playerbase...I feel like they have to meet certain expectations.

Yeah. And that's probably my fault (though I'm going to blame it on Az, natch).

I don't think it's quite like that in the FTQ, though, at least not in how we apply the principle; the reason it might seem like that is just because the last two FTQs have been Ozone Underground and Ataghan Mafia, from two mods who have their particular quirks. But I think FTQ has been pretty well balanced out - the two FTQs before that were Chosen Mafia, which was very straightforward, and Cyan's Impossible Mafia, which, while complicated, was still manageable.

Part of the problem might be just that the FTQ might just move too slow. This is also my fault; I haven't signed up for a non-mini queue since, what, 2007? And that's because I knew I could pretty much always fire my game out of the FTQ as soon as it was done. And I'm planning to try launching my other two games through the FTQ as soon as it comes up again. It might yet be I'm causing a "crowding-out effect".

Here's a thought: the Specialties queue is pretty short at this point. Do we really still want it? At this point, most of the mods known for their weird queues also know they stand a good chance of firing faster by not even signing up for it. If we closed Specialties and let FTQ run two games at once, that might actually solve the crowding-out issue, simply because the pipeline will be wider.

There are other perks as well: FTQ games are more scrutinized by the reviewers, because they need to get a sense of how they will compete on the queue. Plus on the FTQ, there's an incentive to get an extra reviewer if you're not well-known to get another advocate for your game. And as more people sign up for the FTQ, since most of them won't design crazy wild games (just based on what I've seen so far), the feeling that "FTQ = superspecialty" will go away.

I was considering suggesting that, but what about the games that we're knocking out of the Normal queue? They wouldn't stand a chance.

Quote from Iso

I was considering suggesting that, but what about the games that we're knocking out of the Normal queue? They wouldn't stand a chance.

Not necessarily. Normals are just judged by different measures - tightness of the design and flavor, for example. A game like Zionite's Cyberpunk Mafia I feel would be a contender, especially in a more open field. And a larger playing field can only benefit Normals.

Really, I think these are two different questions. If we want to preserve Normals, I think demand can be accounted for by eliminating a different queue. No matter what happens to Normals, however, I support this change to Specialties.

Double-FTQ, huh?

I like the idea in the abstract. My only concern has been that the number of submissions to the FTQ has been low - possibly because, as you said, people feel like they can get onto it "anytime", and so there's no rush to complete setups.

That's probably a factor in why my own latest has been taking so long, come to think of it.

EDs: Welcome back, Kpaca.

Quote from Azrael

Double-FTQ, huh?

I like the idea in the abstract. My only concern has been that the number of submissions to the FTQ has been low - possibly because, as you said, people feel like they can get onto it "anytime", and so there's no rush to complete setups.

That's probably a factor in why my own latest has been taking so long, come to think of it.

EDs: Welcome back, Kpaca.

Well, if the Specialty queue gets closed, the rush will be on - that's four setups right there. I'll submit MTGS Mafia Redux 2 for FTQ as well, and I can think of a couple more that I've seen. I have a feeling this will be a competitive round.

EDIT: Oh, hey, kpaca's back. Cool.

I feel like I should start to make my opinions known on all of these queue things but I don't have the time to devote to all of the different proposals and the arguments for/against them.

I'll take this opportunity to make some positions known, however. I don't support eliminating the Specialty queue and rolling it into the FTQ, as proposed by Xyre above. I don't think that every Specialty-complexity game is FTQ-worthy, so there's that, but I also don't like any idea that makes "getting your game selected by a group of judges or arbitrators" the only way to get your game to run. There's a lot of material out there that probably would/will never successfully negotiate the FTQ - of recent specialties, for example, I would be very surprised if Magical Girl or Star Trek MU II had managed to make it through the FTQ process - and those games should have the same opportunity as every other game to run on a queue basis.

I intend to submit my next setup, Celestial Mafia, to the Specialty queue, not the FTQ. Could I get it to run faster by submitting it through the FTQ? Probably. I just don't particularly care for the idea of the FTQ becoming the playground of a group of talented and popular hosts - while the games that run that way are likely to be high-quality, which is good, I think that completely removing an "equal-opportunity" queue will be to the net detriment of the site. We should keep the queues as they are: a slow but reliable queue for people to test their skills at designing complex and interesting games, and a fast-track queue for some of the best designs available on MTGS.

(I also strenuously object to any League involvement in the FTQ, as I've already said ad nauseam. Definitely no to a "league finale" taking up an FTQ slot.)

Quote from zindabad

We should keep the queues as they are: a slow but reliable queue for people to test their skills at designing complex and interesting games, and a fast-track queue for some of the best designs available on MTGS.

While I don't really have the right to significantly influence this argument (nor do I entirely believe that I fully understand some of what's being proposed), I will barn Zinda on this one.

If some kind soul would like to offer a 2-3 line summary on what exactly the league is or is intended to do, I'd be appreciative, as I don't have the time right now to slog through the last 1.5 year's worth of threads...

Quote from Cantripmancer

Quote from zindabad

We should keep the queues as they are: a slow but reliable queue for people to test their skills at designing complex and interesting games, and a fast-track queue for some of the best designs available on MTGS.

While I don't really have the right to significantly influence this argument (nor do I entirely believe that I fully understand some of what's being proposed), I will barn Zinda on this one.

If some kind soul would like to offer a 2-3 line summary on what exactly the league is or is intended to do, I'd be appreciative, as I don't have the time right now to slog through the last 1.5 year's worth of threads...

The League is a way to test your mafia skills against everybody else. A panel of judges score each player according to a rubric (currently in the middle of testing since we're in the beta league). Each player that plays in 3 or more games in a season receives a final score taking his three best scores to determine the final ranking for the season.

Quote from Cantripmancer

Quote from zindabad

We should keep the queues as they are: a slow but reliable queue for people to test their skills at designing complex and interesting games, and a fast-track queue for some of the best designs available on MTGS.

While I don't really have the right to significantly influence this argument (nor do I entirely believe that I fully understand some of what's being proposed), I will barn Zinda on this one.

If some kind soul would like to offer a 2-3 line summary on what exactly the league is or is intended to do, I'd be appreciative, as I don't have the time right now to slog through the last 1.5 year's worth of threads...

The goal of the League is to improve players' skills with thoughtful feedback and scoring by tracking progress over multiple games. It was designed as a separate entity, but it seems that a possible solution to activity issues is the Normal queue becoming a League queue, and players to be scored automatically.

Pros are setups being heavily scrutinized, more streamlined mafia gaming, a clear distinction of what Normal is, and having frank discussions on strategy with something solid to work with.

Cons are less outlets for setups to run, actually defining Normal and creating guidelines, current setups on the normal list might need tweaks to run for League play, and putting Normal players who may not want their play judged in an awkward position.

Hello, I abandoned games I was in July.

I think I'm on a probation list of some kind and I do not fully understand the ramifications of this.

I would like to attempt joining a singular, small game again to see if I can avoid the problems that plagued the last time and the time I was here before that. I enjoy the community and such, but I need to simply handle anxiety and conflict better. I've let personal problems derail games I was in prior.

Thanks for your time either way.

Council and others, feel to correct me if I am wrong, but the Probation List is simply in place to show those that have had issues with playing in Mafia games in the past within our community.

When you are on the Probation List it allows the Mod of the Mafia Game to choose whether or not you get to play in the game.

Ftr, I have not seen a Mod tell a player they could not join the game due to their Probation.

Looking at the Probation list in the Hosting Sign Ups thread, I can't actually see your name on it anyway.

No one told me to add him to it, so...

Hm.

...OK, I can't understand words or lists.

Thanks!

Announcement: I now have the Xyre stamp of approval for reviewing Specialties/FTQs. Send 'em my way, kids!

We (The Council) have taken on board public opinion and discussed the matter in the cave, and we are proud to announce our revitalisation of Normal games.

In short, we feel that Normal games are mostly unpopular because they tend to be overly large, and complexity creep has turned into "Specialty-lite" games, containing unnecessary clutter. This has made them clearly a "third choice" behind Specialty and FTQ games, and when given the choice between a [League] game and a Normal, players would choose the former, leaving the latter without demand.

As a result, we are rebranding Normals as a "good old fashioned game of mafia". They are returning to their intended roots of reasonably simple games that are a next logical step from Basic games, that allow players of all experience levels to play a very pure game and test their skills without having to deal with complex mechanics or overly swingy or game-changing roles.

Thus, our new guidelines for Normal games are as follows:

-No additional rules which fundamentally alter the game.
-No alignment changes.
-No more than one Mafia team.
-No cults, Jesters, or other weird neutrals.
-Particularly unusual roles of any alignment are subject to reviewer discretion.
-No roles with infeasible win conditions.
-No voting after death. Other post-death abilities are subject to reviewer discretion.
-No players outside of the game or on the replacement list may have a role or any effect upon the game.
-The mod may not have a role.
-A strongly recommended size of 14-18 players.
-Normals must be reviewed by at least one League Judge.

All hosts on the Normal queue must comply with the new rules (and I will PM them shortly about it.) Hosts are free to move to the currently very short Specialty queue or submit their game to the FTQ if they do not wish to alter their game to fit these new guidelines.

We sincerely hope that Normals will bounce back in popularity under these new guidelines as we see them repeating the success of well-received games such as Ged's Normal and AlphaInsidious' Joss Whedon Mafia.