I know it' a bit early for this but...
@Mod Postcount Pleae
If you don't do them by request I understand, but I like it better when a nuetral party does them
Yeah, I'm assuming you mean vote count. If you'd like to see the post count, you can click on the "Total Posts" number to the side of the thread in the main forum. I will take requests as well, but understand that I don't usually get on until about midnight in the US.
@Non-liar-pants: Do you think Hawk is scum beyond reasonable doubt? Is he the most likely to be scum in this game from your perspective?
Beyond reasonable doubt? No. Enough to merit a vote and possibly even a wagon that pushes him to claim? Sure. Most likely scum so far? If he wasn't I would be voting someone else.
Its irrelevant. I'll be full claiming in twilight anyways because I'm pretty sure that's the correct way to play my role.
My last two posts consisted of trying to get players to do anything in the game because it started stagnating. I explicitly stated that ego should vote for emo to see if he would try and buddy my post to get pressure off of himself. I waited a little while to vote to make sure that if anyone wanted to vote Ego. I was hoping one of you four would vote so I could keep my vote on emo.
If I come across as arrogant, I apologize. I'm just resolved to do better this game because I've hit a rough patch in mafia lately. I'm also trying to play with more confidence because second guessing myself gets me nowhere.
@Ego
I'm saying why did you go after generic and not asenion. You said that you didn't like both of them but voted one without even mentioning the other. I already explained why I tried to get you to vote emo earlier. I saw a lot of quote walls but not really many specific questions towards me.
@Hans about asking zinger who he would nightkill
I was going to just ask zinger who he thought was the most town but what's the fun in that? I could ask him a similar question that is generally understood as taboo and get to look in to his reaction and the reactions of everyone else in the process.
The reason for this question is to show if he has been paying attention to who is town this game which is something that town need to do and scum do not.
His answer was not what I was hoping for. He responded by only talking about game theory generally and not specifics. Another reason for asking was to test out his NLP. It seemed like no one else was interested in testing how far this NLP could be used. From his response I think that everyone should just ignore the fact that he even stated the NLP. It does nothing and means nothing. A third reason for asking this is the game grinded down to about a post a day and needed something to get people involved.
And, with the body snatchers scheme aside, wouldn't you? Don't answer that. But think about it. Also, Ibid if you don't think thi answeres your question.
I am going to answer this because I am going to show you how your logic is flawed.
1) No because names are meaningless or else the game could be broken by a day 1 mass claim.
2) Let's for the sake of argument say that you did not read the opening. Why would you automatically believe it made him town? Your reaction can best be summed up as strange. Why is Thor automatically town? Why could the scum not have safe claims (like we know they do)? Why are you so fast to clear Generic on name alone?
Your reaction doesn't make sense. Your reaction to his claim makes it look like you were looking for an excuse to call him town. Especially when you combine that with your reasoning for voting to "spur conversation".
Id, from your actions we can conclude a few things:
1. You are voting more for appearance than scumhunting.
2. Your actions do not reflect what you are saying.
3. Your motives do not reflect a person looking for scum.
Really there is nothing town in your thought process or behavior. And you appear more interested in looking town than actually hunting scum.
Its irrelevant. I'll be full claiming in twilight anyways because I'm pretty sure that's the correct way to play my role.
Um...if this is true, why is it (now that you've made that statement) not the best play for us to force you to claim before twilight? I'm having a hard time imagining a claim that is appropriate for D1 twilight that isn't as appropriate (or more town-friendly) for D1 pre-lynch.
Quote from Hawk »
It seemed like no one else was interested in testing how far this NLP could be used.
For me personally, it feels like cheating to ask the kinds of questions that would really test the NLP. Maybe that's a kind of reverse psychology that sometimes serves as an added bonus to playing with an NLP, but I don't really feel like asking Zinger questions that I wouldn't normally ask him if he hadn't announced the NLP. For instance, I'd never ask a player "can you chat privately with anyone in the game?". Asking that kind of question to Zinger would feel...like cheating.
I was going to just ask zinger who he thought was the most town but what's the fun in that? I could ask him a similar question that is generally understood as taboo and get to look in to his reaction and the reactions of everyone else in the process.
What are your reads on the reactions of everyone else in the process?
I'd rather wait to claim to make sure that scum don't get hints on how to fake claim.
I wasn't trying to break the game and cheat, I was trying to see the boundaries of the NLP while stirring things up. I expected him to commit lies of omissions about it but I was curious how he would pull it off.
I think hans has been asking good questions.
Asenion has been acting scummy all game to bait reactions and then falls for that trick when I do it.
My opinion on ego and zinger haven't really changed. I think that zinger's reply to my question should be taken as null on his faction but allowed me to understand him as a player more.
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
1. I started off by saying that I did a misscount, and I distanced myself from the situation because as was clearly stated by generic, I was the actual fifth vote, if I hadn't confirmed it possibly would not have lead to a claim.
Ok.
Quote from Id_Ego »
2. Ever hear of Meta? Thor, one of the main Avengers, good guy; Knowing my identity (forthcoming), plausible to be in game; possibility for scum gambit? next to 0.
Except that it sounds like you've played in enough games to know that a simple name claim is pretty unlikely to break the game. If the games you've played in suggest otherwise, please point me to them.
In fact, can you list what games on this site you've been in?
Quote from Id_Ego »
3.I contribute in my own ways, sorry it isn't up to your standards
It's not a question of standards (far be it from me to assume that I can set those). I saw your action as akin to egging on others to vote without voting yourself; participating through non-participation is scummy.
Quote from Id_Ego »
4. Excuse? for what? for not posting more? I felt I had given enough info to hold out until the next time I had posted. Would you like me to write you an essay next time, when I'm equally tired? How about this, the next time you say you are tired or have to go somewhere, I'll count it as a point for you being scum. /sarcsm.
My apologies. Point retracted.
Quote from Id_Ego »
5. Yes, because as was stated earlier, there was SOOOO much non-NLP convo going on. /sarcasm. Okay I'm sorry, I'm being a little rough with the sarcasm, let me just ay Ibid (means read above)
Ok, and I guess I need to half-retract this one, as well. I was thinking of the timing of your explanation post, not your confirm vote post. Still, I don't really understand why you felt that a simple "confirm vote" would generate conversation unless you knew Generic was at claim range.
Quote from Id_Ego »
And, with the body snatchers scheme aside, wouldn't you? Don't answer that. But think about it. Also, Ibid if you don't think thi answeres your question.
I'd rather wait to claim to make sure that scum don't get hints on how to fake claim.
Ok...
Quote from Hawk »
I think hans has been asking good questions.
Asenion has been acting scummy all game to bait reactions and then falls for that trick when I do it.
My opinion on ego and zinger haven't really changed. I think that zinger's reply to my question should be taken as null on his faction but allowed me to understand him as a player more.
++ on your interpretation of Zinger. Asenion...seems really volatile in general. I didn't read his response the way you did.
Also, any particular reason you left me out of this list?
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. Asking a player "can you chat privately with anyone in the game?" would never occur to me to ask when playing the game, so why would I take a non-mod element like an NLP and attempt to abuse it with such questions?
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
Defensive.
Straw Man.
Not a town Mindset.
Not even a real FoS.
Join Planar Chaos, A Colo clan
Generation B1: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
unvote
I didn't realize generic was on 5 votes, i thought he wa still on 4...
My confirm vote was an attempt to put pressure on Generic to get a bit more convo flow, sadly it lead to a claim, which there is no counter claim to as far as I see. The claim is believable since we are all power charecters.
I have nothing further to add atm as I am tirde... goodnight.
Your vote was the fifth, and if you are confirming a vote on me because you find me significantly scummy and havent noticed the votes laid down on me when making that confirmed assessment then it shouldnt matter that you put me at L-2.
If you were not confirming it because you had strong opinions that im scum then you are sheeping along with a wagon you saw growing but didnt want to be seen as the one who pushed it into claim territory so you withdrew.
You could have left it at the RVS vote but i was making a point abut it being an RVS vote so your confirming it almost seemed to tie in with a desire to ensure i would claim.
You also claimed you wanted to put pressure on me but the moment you realised it was L-2 it was you that removed the pressure, so why want pressure on me but not the pressure of L-2?
Thats why i found it troubling as an explanation.
As for the Hawk wagon, the only thing that stood out for me on him were the two things already highlighted... waiting on others to vote is odd when we should be scumhunting rather than tailoring our actions to that of others, and the cockyness of telling us who will be lynched today.
Beyond that it seems standard hawk play.
Again, you are asuming I KNEW that palcing that vote would put you at l-2, I wanted more pressure for you to talk, about soemthing OTHER than NLP. why not L-2 kind of pressure? because, as others have stated, and as I too believe, it was too early for a claim! If I had wanted a claim out of you, I would have said so, a you did to me, eliquently.
And if you had read all of my previous post, I'm sure you would have found your answer.
I am Black Widow. and since a name claim means literaly nothing, and we all have powers, I am the vote thief. I can choose a player who does not get a vote tomorrow. I am town. I am a sexy redheaded woman (yes she is!)
Do you assume the vote of the person that you steal from?
To clarify, if you were to use it on Player A toNight, would you have a second vote tomorrow along with Player A not being able to vote, or is the vote that you steal simply gone for the rest of the day?
Sadly no, no double vote (would be cool). The vote is just gone.
I am Black Widow. and since a name claim means literaly nothing, and we all have powers, I am the vote thief. I can choose a player who does not get a vote tomorrow. I am town. I am a sexy redheaded woman (yes she is!)
This claim sounds believable (and no counterclaim from me), but I could see it on scum just as easily as town.
I know it' a bit early for this but...
@Mod Postcount Pleae
If you don't do them by request I understand, but I like it better when a nuetral party does them
Are you asking for a votecount, or actually a postcount? The latter can be obtained by clicking on the number in the "Replies" column for this thread in the main Mafia forum thread. If you're looking for a votecount, most mods will provide them by request, as long as the requests don't get out of hand.
I'd like to spend some more time examining Ego's responses before we decide to lynch/not lynch. Also, has anyone in here played with him previously (and, if so, are you seeing similarities to the game(s) you played with him)?
EWP: That's a good question from Hans. To go along with it, is this a limited ability, or can you do it every night?
TYVM for the info.
I think I played a game with Gaurdman, but I might be confusing it with one of the Colo games I played back then. And yes, there is one similarity, I tend do do oemthing stupid that will get me lynch/NK before/on N2. I doubt the NK will happen though.
Yes, I can do it every night, it only lasts for one day.
My last two posts consisted of trying to get players to do anything in the game because it started stagnating. I explicitly stated that ego should vote for emo to see if he would try and buddy my post to get pressure off of himself. I waited a little while to vote to make sure that if anyone wanted to vote Ego. I was hoping one of you four would vote so I could keep my vote on emo.
If I come across as arrogant, I apologize. I'm just resolved to do better this game because I've hit a rough patch in mafia lately. I'm also trying to play with more confidence because second guessing myself gets me nowhere.
@Ego
I'm saying why did you go after generic and not asenion. You said that you didn't like both of them but voted one without even mentioning the other. I already explained why I tried to get you to vote emo earlier. I saw a lot of quote walls but not really many specific questions towards me.
@Hans about asking zinger who he would nightkill
I was going to just ask zinger who he thought was the most town but what's the fun in that? I could ask him a similar question that is generally understood as taboo and get to look in to his reaction and the reactions of everyone else in the process.
The reason for this question is to show if he has been paying attention to who is town this game which is something that town need to do and scum do not.
His answer was not what I was hoping for. He responded by only talking about game theory generally and not specifics. Another reason for asking was to test out his NLP. It seemed like no one else was interested in testing how far this NLP could be used. From his response I think that everyone should just ignore the fact that he even stated the NLP. It does nothing and means nothing. A third reason for asking this is the game grinded down to about a post a day and needed something to get people involved.
Either way I accomplished what I set out to do.
what did you accomplish? yes this iz a zeriouz queztion.
And zinze you feel that no one iz azking enough queztionz, why are you voting for me? why did you wait to do it? why did you feel a need to get a rize out of me or emo before you decided to vote? why wait when you knew your vote wouldn't put me one L-2?
And, with the body snatchers scheme aside, wouldn't you? Don't answer that. But think about it. Also, Ibid if you don't think thi answeres your question.
I am going to answer this because I am going to show you how your logic is flawed.
1) No because names are meaningless or else the game could be broken by a day 1 mass claim.
2) Let's for the sake of argument say that you did not read the opening. Why would you automatically believe it made him town? Your reaction can best be summed up as strange. Why is Thor automatically town? Why could the scum not have safe claims (like we know they do)? Why are you so fast to clear Generic on name alone?
Your reaction doesn't make sense. Your reaction to his claim makes it look like you were looking for an excuse to call him town. Especially when you combine that with your reasoning for voting to "spur conversation".
Id, from your actions we can conclude a few things:
1. You are voting more for appearance than scumhunting. 2. Your actions do not reflect what you are saying. 3. Your motives do not reflect a person looking for scum.
Really there is nothing town in your thought process or behavior. And you appear more interested in looking town than actually hunting scum.
Again, thank you for reading any of my poztz... I did not realize the vote count waz at 5 when I confirmed vote. And I hate uzing WIFOM, but zeriouzly? you think a zcum would put vote on zomeone to get a claim and then zuddenly call that perzon town? To what endz? what zenario can you come up with where thiz endz well?
az for you zecond part... again thank you for reading my entire pozt, ezpecially when I zaid to Ibid (which mean read the above).
Meta: THOR! good guy. A main charecter. Given my idenitity, a probable addition to the game (which is why i zaid not to anzwer the queztion). Chance for zcum gambit? ~0. I underztand that zometimez zcum have zafe namez to claim, I waz in one zaid game. But, I thought honeztly, why would Thor be left out?
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
Yez, hiz NLP is void, can we move on from it? if we asked him the queztion he could zimply zay yez, becauze he can in fact PM any one of uz. if we were to rephraze the queztion to be "would there be repercuzzionz if you PMed anyone in the game right now?" hiz anzer would be... well I won't put wordz in hiz mouth but the point iz uzing it for meta will get you nowhere. now if you want to azk about hiz powerz and identity, go for it. if not plz stfu about NLP.
1. I started off by saying that I did a misscount, and I distanced myself from the situation because as was clearly stated by generic, I was the actual fifth vote, if I hadn't confirmed it possibly would not have lead to a claim.
Ok.
Quote from Id_Ego »
2. Ever hear of Meta? Thor, one of the main Avengers, good guy; Knowing my identity (forthcoming), plausible to be in game; possibility for scum gambit? next to 0.
Except that it sounds like you've played in enough games to know that a simple name claim is pretty unlikely to break the game. If the games you've played in suggest otherwise, please point me to them.
In fact, can you list what games on this site you've been in?
Yez, but you are forgetting that there are literaly more than 100 avengerz memberz to chooze from. why Thor?
az for the gamez i've been in: Left 4 Dead, Southpark, zome game which I can't remember the game to, and some other bazic I waz killed N0/1, zo i didn't care. there may have been otherz but all of my gamez were in the old Mafia Forumz, which to my knowledge don't exzizt anymore.
3.I contribute in my own ways, sorry it isn't up to your standards
It's not a question of standards (far be it from me to assume that I can set those). I saw your action as akin to egging on others to vote without voting yourself; participating through non-participation is scummy.
excuze me? ALL I did waz vote. try harder on thiz explenation.
4. Excuse? for what? for not posting more? I felt I had given enough info to hold out until the next time I had posted. Would you like me to write you an essay next time, when I'm equally tired? How about this, the next time you say you are tired or have to go somewhere, I'll count it as a point for you being scum. /sarcsm.
My apologies. Point retracted.
Quote from Id_Ego »
5. Yes, because as was stated earlier, there was SOOOO much non-NLP convo going on. /sarcasm. Okay I'm sorry, I'm being a little rough with the sarcasm, let me just ay Ibid (means read above)
Ok, and I guess I need to half-retract this one, as well. I was thinking of the timing of your explanation post, not your confirm vote post. Still, I don't really understand why you felt that a simple "confirm vote" would generate conversation unless you knew Generic was at claim range.
becauze more votez mean people zweat more, knowing they are that much clozer to claim range. Pluz it would have gotten people to azk me about why I had confirmed. If it didn't lead to a claim, wouldn't that have been the next logical ztep?
And, with the body snatchers sch
eme aside, wouldn't you? Don't answer that. But think about it. Also, Ibid if you don't think thi answeres your question.
Why did you say "don't answer that" here?
becauze if he had anzwered the way I did, bazed off of my charceterz Identity, it would have give the zcum more (albeit rather tiny) info.
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
Defensive.
Straw Man.
Not a town Mindset.
Not even a real FoS.
lot's of words, not a lot of explination. and you really think he desrves to be lynched over that bolded part?
Join Planar Chaos, A Colo clan
Generation B1: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
@Non-liar-pants: Do you think Hawk is scum beyond reasonable doubt? Is he the most likely to be scum in this game from your perspective?
Beyond reasonable doubt? No. Enough to merit a vote and possibly even a wagon that pushes him to claim? Sure. Most likely scum so far? If he wasn't I would be voting someone else.
Its irrelevant. I'll be full claiming in twilight anyways because I'm pretty sure that's the correct way to play my role.
I'd rather wait to claim to make sure that scum don't get hints on how to fake claim.
I wasn't trying to break the game and cheat, I was trying to see the boundaries of the NLP while stirring things up. I expected him to commit lies of omissions about it but I was curious how he would pull it off.
I think hans has been asking good questions.
Asenion has been acting scummy all game to bait reactions and then falls for that trick when I do it.
My opinion on ego and zinger haven't really changed. I think that zinger's reply to my question should be taken as null on his faction but allowed me to understand him as a player more.
1. Assension's vote pozt on you made zome good pointz
2a. You are CERTAIN I am the lynch tonight
2b. You say you are going to claim at twilight.
2c. When someone asks why wait, you zay ^in bold.
2d. If you are certain I am the lynch tonight, why would you need to wait until twilight to claim? zo YOU can have more time to make a falze claim? unvote, vote 7hawk77
Because we already have a line from point zero to point x, where x is the current post. now we have a line from point 0 to 1 and 1 to x. later I will add points 2,3,etc. so that we can zee the activity of each perzon bazed upon the mozt recent linez and can analyze better.
Join Planar Chaos, A Colo clan
Generation B1: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
lot's of words, not a lot of explination. and you really think he desrves to be lynched over that bolded part?
I've been pointing out scummy things by Z for a while now. Also there's plenty of explanation there, if you disagree the bolded parts fall under the categories I placed them in then say that instead of just spouting gibberish.
I am Black Widow. and since a name claim means literaly nothing, and we all have powers, I am the vote thief. I can choose a player who does not get a vote tomorrow. I am town.
This claim sounds believable (and no counterclaim from me), but I could see it on scum just as easily as town.
Cantrip is surely experienced enough to know that kind of role would never be found on scum. Fortunately for us, it's a testable ability.
@Id_Ego: Don't say who, but definitely activate your ability toNight. That's how you're saying it works right? Target a player at night, they lose their vote for the next day?
Unvote
I need to reevaluate where I want my vote tomorrow. (irl tomorrow)
Your text walls are obnoxious so I'll restate your question and then answer them.
What did I accomplish?
I already stated that I tested the NLP policy, I got the game moving forward and I got a better understanding on how zinger plays not to mention tons of reactions out of the majority of the players in the game some of which I needed better reads on. I'm voting for you because your motive behind your actions towards generic don't make any sense from town perspective and you contradict yourself. You made him claim for no reason and then cleared him for no reason. You've gone after two weak wagons very half assed so far.
Here are your posts on why you are voting me. Let me show you the validity of them.
1. You barn asenions post which I've already talked about and explained myself. He pointed out an inconsistency in which I explained why I wanted others to act and still voted you. If you didn't like my answer you should discuss that and not older posts that have already been touched on.
2a. I already stated that I am resolved and have confidence in my play. I'm convinced you are scum.
2b. I've been fighting with myself over how I want to play my role and I think that claiming is correct.
I belive if I do it during twilight, it will create beneficial WIFOM to disrupt and throw off what the scum should do at night.
2c. Believe it or not, the scum team involves more than 1 person. The day isn't over. You aren't the only scum. Someone else might get pushed in to claim range if we find a slip up.
2d. Reread 2b and 2c.
Please explain the following:
Why is role claiming in twilight scummy? Why is trying to instigate players in to posting more when the game stalls out to a post a day scummy? Why is voting for someone I believe is scum scummy?
Your vote holds no weight.
@Everyone else.
I'm perfectly fine roleclaiming whenever. I'm actually really excited about how it will play out
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
First up: after these last few posts, I want Zinger, Id, and Hawk dead. I can't believe they are the scum team together, but I think 2/3 of them should flip scum and that's good enough for me. I will vote whichever of those 3 has the largest wagon.
2nd my Internet just went down... Again. I'm getting a new service and negotiating rates, but it will be at least a week from Friday before they can get it installed. V/LA till then since in only phone posting.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Out of your set of 3 scumspects, two of them are voting for one of them. Considering you said you are probably 2/3's right, this should probably ring a bell.
I am Black Widow. and since a name claim means literaly nothing, and we all have powers, I am the vote thief. I can choose a player who does not get a vote tomorrow. I am town.
This claim sounds believable (and no counterclaim from me), but I could see it on scum just as easily as town.
Cantrip is surely experienced enough to know that kind of role would never be found on scum. Fortunately for us, it's a testable ability.
@Id_Ego: Don't say who, but definitely activate your ability toNight. That's how you're saying it works right? Target a player at night, they lose their vote for the next day?
Unvote
I need to reevaluate where I want my vote tomorrow. (irl tomorrow)
Why do you say that it wouldn't likely be a scum ability? I certainly believe that it could go either way, but if I'm looking at it the right way, I actually think its more scum oriented.
The town's greatest weapon is its vote; if that is taken away, they are nearly powerless against the mafia.
The following is a completely "what if?" scenario, but imagine that ID is scum with this ability to get rid of someone's vote. Now Id managed to survive long enough until the point where it's just two townies and himself still alive. Even if one of those remaining townies is a cop who got a guilty result on ID the previous night, they wouldn't have the man power to push the lynch through, even though both of them know that ID is scum. That day would then end in a stalemate and ID would be free to win the game.
I realize that this scenario relies on extremely precise situations, but its purpose was simply to highlight how much of a benefit this vote stealing role could be to the mafia.
I would imagine that a townie would not want to simply remove another potential townie's vote because that puts them at a disadvantage. I think that it'd be better if the vote was simply stolen so that the vote is still accounted for and town is not put at a disadvantage.
If anyone has more experience regarding setup and vote stealing roles such as the one in question, please show me if my logic is flawed. I'm somewhat troubled over this claim.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
I didn't read your whole post Han, but it's definitely a scummy claim. There's no positive way to use it as town unless the mod let the game continue in a 2scum vs 2town situation. (and that would be really awkward)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Sadly no, no double vote (would be cool). The vote is just gone.
If you stole the vote, I'd see a higher chance of you being town. More on your claim below (response to Emocakes).
Quote from Id_Ego »
I think I played a game with Gaurdman, but I might be confusing it with one of the Colo games I played back then. And yes, there is one similarity, I tend do do oemthing stupid that will get me lynch/NK before/on N2. I doubt the NK will happen though.
No offense, but you providing your own meta doesn't help in any way. The question was directed to others for a reason.
Quote from Id_Ego »
Yes, I can do it every night, it only lasts for one day.
If this is true, you're more likely town.
Quote from Id_Ego »
what did you accomplish? yes this iz a zeriouz queztion.
And zinze you feel that no one iz azking enough queztionz, why are you voting for me? why did you wait to do it? why did you feel a need to get a rize out of me or emo before you decided to vote? why wait when you knew your vote wouldn't put me one L-2?
Um...is zis "z" thing a thing, like an internet thing, like...
Is it supposed to be funny and not just obnoxious?
Quote from Id_Ego »
Meta: THOR! good guy. A main charecter. Given my idenitity, a probable addition to the game (which is why i zaid not to anzwer the queztion). Chance for zcum gambit? ~0. I underztand that zometimez zcum have zafe namez to claim, I waz in one zaid game. But, I thought honeztly, why would Thor be left out?
Who cares if Thor is "left out"? What we're trying to figure out is why you would town-crown Generic based on him saying "I'm Thor" when a) the OP stated that we're among shapeshifters that can copy everything about us, hinting at falseclaims being provided, and b) even if you didn't read the OP, you admitted that you've played in a game where scum were provided safeclaims.
Why does Generic's claim of "Thor" (and nothing else) make him town?
@Cantripmancer: just what exactly do you think would happen if you asked me such a question? Do you really think it would break the game? Why do you feel that using any resource at your disposal to try and catch scum is cheating? If I am scum and you think you've come up with a way to use my NLP to catch me as scum then you damn well should. The fact that you are unwilling to do so based on the fact that you feel it is cheating feels like an excuse to me. Not sure if this says anything about you being scum but an unwillingness to ask any question certainly doesn't feel town.
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
Yez, hiz NLP is void, can we move on from it? if we asked him the queztion he could zimply zay yez, becauze he can in fact PM any one of uz. if we were to rephraze the queztion to be "would there be repercuzzionz if you PMed anyone in the game right now?" hiz anzer would be... well I won't put wordz in hiz mouth but the point iz uzing it for meta will get you nowhere. now if you want to azk about hiz powerz and identity, go for it. if not plz stfu about NLP.
You do realize you're responding to a Zinger quote and talking to him as though he were a third person, right? If that stfu was directed at me, please adjust your attitude; I don't feel that being abrasive is necessary.
Except that it sounds like you've played in enough games to know that a simple name claim is pretty unlikely to break the game. If the games you've played in suggest otherwise, please point me to them.
In fact, can you list what games on this site you've been in?
Yez, but you are forgetting that there are literaly more than 100 avengerz memberz to chooze from. why Thor?
...
...
...
Really? Why are you asking me "why Thor"? Here's the conversation as I have it in my mind:
You: Generic claimed Thor; he must be town. Me/Others: Why does a name claim clear Generic? You: Cause Thor's a good guy. Duh. Me/Others: Why can't the scum have falseclaims? Is it your experience that a simple nameclaim is sometimes sufficient to identify the scumteam? You: But there are more than 100 Avengers to choose from!!1! Why Thor? Me: ????????????
Please answer the question I bolded a few quotes up.
Quote from Id_Ego »
az for the gamez i've been in: Left 4 Dead, Southpark, zome game which I can't remember the game to, and some other bazic I waz killed N0/1, zo i didn't care. there may have been otherz but all of my gamez were in the old Mafia Forumz, which to my knowledge don't exzizt anymore.
I was looking up some of your recent posts; the one you can't remember is the most recent, I believe, Deitrypticos (or however it's spelled). So I reiterate: did any of those play into the idea that the good guys had good guy names and the scum all had bad guy names? If so, did the scum in those games have falseclaims?
3.I contribute in my own ways, sorry it isn't up to your standards
It's not a question of standards (far be it from me to assume that I can set those). I saw your action as akin to egging on others to vote without voting yourself; participating through non-participation is scummy.
excuze me? ALL I did waz vote. try harder on thiz explenation.
I said it was akin to egging others to vote without voting yourself. I don't care if you post a little or a lot, with ze "z's" or without (ok, I'd really sorta prefer without, but I'm not going to think poorly of you for it), but I do care if your posts tell others to participate when you don't (and I'm not saying that you're currently not participating; that's what I saw at the time you explained your "confirm vote" post).
Still, I don't really understand why you felt that a simple "confirm vote" would generate conversation unless you knew Generic was at claim range.
becauze more votez mean people zweat more, knowing they are that much clozer to claim range. Pluz it would have gotten people to azk me about why I had confirmed. If it didn't lead to a claim, wouldn't that have been the next logical ztep?
I don't know that I really see moving a player from L-4 to L-3 as that pressuring, at least not D1.
And if Generic hadn't been suddenly at claim range, your "confirm vote" would have been a much smaller blip on my scumdar. I probably would have questioned it (mostly asking you to verbalize your reasons), but I don't know that it would have been as soon or with such concern.
1. Assension's vote pozt on you made zome good pointz
2a. You are CERTAIN I am the lynch tonight
2b. You say you are going to claim at twilight.
2c. When someone asks why wait, you zay ^in bold.
2d. If you are certain I am the lynch tonight, why would you need to wait until twilight to claim? zo YOU can have more time to make a falze claim? unvote, vote 7hawk77
Your error here is that Hawk, while under some suspicion, wasn't even being voted when he offered to claim during twilight, so accusing him of needing more time to create a falseclaim is bogus.
Pretty sure you're just looking for a reason to ++ another wagon.
Because we already have a line from point zero to point x, where x is the current post. now we have a line from point 0 to 1 and 1 to x. later I will add points 2,3,etc. so that we can zee the activity of each perzon bazed upon the mozt recent linez and can analyze better.
I will admit that I have serious doubts as to the benefit of what you seem to be describing, but...knock yourself out?
I am Black Widow. and since a name claim means literaly nothing, and we all have powers, I am the vote thief. I can choose a player who does not get a vote tomorrow. I am town.
This claim sounds believable (and no counterclaim from me), but I could see it on scum just as easily as town.
Cantrip is surely experienced enough to know that kind of role would never be found on scum. Fortunately for us, it's a testable ability.
If he gained an extra vote in doing so, he'd almost definitely be town. If he's telling the truth about being able to do it every night, he's likely town. But it's only testable up unto the point where it would be near-suicidal for a townie to gamble with the ability. So what's to say it isn't 1-shot/2-shot/dependent on something else? Are you going to suggest/demand that he test it every night?
Plus, behavior >>> claim except when the claim is testable conclusively. A cop claim locks the player into confirming roles or risking a loss in the end game because they lied. A town innocent can be proven (usually) within a Day. But vote manipulation, especially when it doesn't provide Id_Ego with extra votes? Not defTown by a long shot. (My apologies if my recent experience with an Iso game is clouding my judgement on this one, but I didn't see vote manipulation as defTown even before that.)
Plus, plus, this is TK's first modded game other than Mod Mafia 6. I can't see that game, so I don't know what kinds of roles he included, but I get the sense that mod mafias are more "learning tools", so I wouldn't expect this kind of role in one. How do we know that TK doesn't fall into the Iso camp with regard to which alignments this kind of role can be on?
@Id_Ego: Will you paraphrase any flavor you have related to why Black Widow is a vote thief?
The following is a completely "what if?" scenario, but imagine that ID is scum with this ability to get rid of someone's vote. Now Id managed to survive long enough until the point where it's just two townies and himself still alive. Even if one of those remaining townies is a cop who got a guilty result on ID the previous night, they wouldn't have the man power to push the lynch through, even though both of them know that ID is scum. That day would then end in a stalemate and ID would be free to win the game.
I think this is the argument against this kind of ability being on scum. IMO (and I think this was the general concensus after Iso's last two games), no single role should be able to win a Day early just by virtue of staying alive to that Day. If Id's telling the truth about the ability but is scum, I'll be a bit miffed at TK for giving that role to scum.
However, that depends on Id telling the truth, which, given that he didn't state "NLP is in effect" in his first post in this game, I don't expect that he's constrained to tell the truth, even less so if he's scum.
Quote from Hans »
I would imagine that a townie would not want to simply remove another potential townie's vote because that puts them at a disadvantage. I think that it'd be better if the vote was simply stolen so that the vote is still accounted for and town is not put at a disadvantage.
I could see it on town because it then becomes a skilltester: are you good enough at reading your fellow players to determine one that is scum so you can hinder the scum team by preventing one of their votes? Will you risk potentially hindering your own team if you're wrong?
EWP: @Asenion: Um, in addition to Hawk's call-out, if Id's claim is "definitely scummy", why aren't you voting him for it?
@TK-Mod: Are the players voting listed in order of votes placed? If so, is Id_Ego being listed before Zinger an error? I see Zinger voting Hawk in 177 and Id voting Hawk in 207.
I don't see how that ability could be on scum at all? Even the "Toss Up" scenarios are impossibly difficult for town to win. It feels like a scum ability, but I don't see it being on scum ever since the town:scum ratio has to be greater than 2:1 for town to even have a chance at winning. I don't expect a test to clear him entirely, but it would definitely put him as a strong town lean for me. I don't think we have to test it more than once.
I'm hoping I can find some time to do a reread this sunday/mondayish. I got a friend who's leaving town soon so that'll take precedence but I'll do my best.
1 Scum / 2 Town - Lynch Threshold: 2 1 Vote / 1 Vote Scum Win ----------------- 1 Scum / 3 Town - Lynch Threshold: 3 1 Vote / 2 Votes Scum Win - Because the scum will refuse to vote for self, town's only options are to vote for who the scum votes for or NOLYNCH (which resolves into the above scenario). ----------------- 1 Scum / 4 Town - Lynch Threshold: 3 1 Vote / 3 Votes Toss Up ----------------- 2 Scum / 2 Town - Lynch Threshold: 3 2 Votes / 1 Vote Scum Win - Would happen anyway. ----------------- 2 Scum / 3 Town - Lynch Threshold: 3 2 Votes / 2 Votes Scum Win - As green explanation above. ----------------- 2 Scum / 4 Town - Lynch Threshold: 4 2 Votes / 3 Votes Scum Win - As green explanation above. ----------------- 2 Scum / 5 Town - Lynch Threshold: 4 2 Votes / 4 Votes Toss Up ----------------- 3 Scum / 3 Town - Lynch Threshold: 4 3 Votes / 2 Votes Scum Win - Would happen anyway. ----------------- 3 Scum / 4 Town - Lynch Threshold: 4 3 Votes / 3 Votes Scum Win - As green explanation above. ----------------- 3 Scum / 5 Town - Lynch Threshold: 5 3 Votes / 4 Votes Scum Win - As green explanation above. ----------------- 3 Scum / 6 Town - Lynch Threshold: 5 3 Votes / 5 Votes Toss Up
Why did you feel the need to include the two auto-scum-wins (2v2 and 3v3)? It feels like you're throwing all these scenarios at us and saying "ZOMBIGOSH!!! If they could steal a vote, they could win in all these scenarios!!!" But two of them they'd win anyway.
Quote from Emo »
I don't see how that ability could be on scum at all? Even the "Toss Up" scenarios are impossibly difficult for town to win. It feels like a scum ability, but I don't see it being on scum ever since the town:scum ratio has to be greater than 2:1 for town to even have a chance at winning. I don't expect a test to clear him entirely, but it would definitely put him as a strong town lean for me. I don't think we have to test it more than once.
I understand what you're saying, but your answer here doesn't match up. Testing it once does nothing for us (because it could be one-shot, which would make more sense for a scum ability). If he can prove that he did it N1 and N2, I'll agree that he's likely town, but (assuming 3 scum and worst-case):
D1: Mislynch (8v3)
N1: Nightkill (7v3)
D2: Confirm ability, mislynch (6v3)
N2: Nightkill (5v3)
D3: Confirm ability, but if he's targeted a townie, we lose.
Actually...doesn't that mean that even if Id's town, we can only mislynch once (unless Id stops using his ability after the first mislynch or hits scum every time after the first mislynch)? With that in mind, I can't see this ability even on town; it places far too much swinginess in the hands of one (limited benefit) ability (or gives a town player an "unlimited" ability that is really only supposed to be used once, which feels like a bastardly skilltest).
@Emocakes: Refresh my memory; why were you voting for Ego in the first place?
EBWODP: I don't have time right now, but if I don't get back to do it first, someone please test my hypothesis of "two mislynches followed by targeting a town by Id's ability = loss" at any point in the game. If that's really the case, I absolutely can't see that ability, as Id's claimed it, in the game at all.
I went back through some games I've played and a straight vote thief is pretty rare. As a town ability it isn't the most useful outside of some edge cases. As a scum ability it is usually handicapped by restrictions on use so that it can't auto-win like emo pointed out.
Basically given the claim we can postulate the following.
1. Since it is easily testable, Id is most likely telling the truth on being a vote thief.
2. I would be very surprised if as scum his vote thieving does not have a restriction.
3. Overall his claim is not telling of his alignment and should not be taken into consideration on whether he is scum or town.
Stop flailing Hawk. I don't have to constantly move my vote whenever one wagon hanged size in order for me to be willing to hammer any of you 3. It's not inconsistent, it's just me not doing extra work when my Internet is down.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
@Emo: The inherent problem w/ your analysis is that you assume it isn't a one-shot or conditional ability. If it were then we would need to test it, daily to figure that out. It is a quite powerful ability on scum but we would have to trust Id_Ego that there are no restrictions on it, which are highly likely.
@Hawk: I really don't like your "not a basic" comment. Unless you're implying that both sides of the coin have vote manipulation, then the construction and distribution of town power has nothing to do with how good of an ability it would be on scum.
What incoming contradiction do you see re: 221?
EWP: Lookning at the logic that Cantrip is showing I think the most likely scenario of all is that Id_Ego is a liar. Either his ability has restrictions he isn't saying or he has the bravado to just flat out bluff
Ego's attack on Hawk, his claim and how he's responding to questions just seems overly defensive and deflective.
Stop flailing Hawk. I don't have to constantly move my vote whenever one wagon hanged size in order for me to be willing to hammer any of you 3. It's not inconsistent, it's just me not doing extra work when my Internet is down.
Asenion, if it's just that you're phone-posting and thus haven't gotten to my post, that's fine, but note that I asked you a question at the bottom of #222 (the hideous textwall that you're probably ignoring if your internet is restricted). To save you having to find it:
@Asenion: Um, in addition to Hawk's call-out, if Id's claim is "definitely scummy", why aren't you voting him for it?
I don't think you understood what I was getting at.
He was only adding one variable to the equation, the vote theif power role. That alone by itself as a scum role would make it very powerful. What if you add a cop to the town? What if you add a day vig to the town? Etc...
I'm saying his analysis is in a vacuum makes sense but does not fit the context of this game.
Tarmogoyf is one of the best creatures in magic ever printed, but isn't picked highly in cube draft. Magic cards just like power roles have to be assessed in the context they are used in.
Well, sure, the game can be balanced around any ability theoretically. The argument at hand, the one being proposed, is that the ability is too good on scum. The question, to continue your metaphor, is that are we talking about Jace, The Mind Sculptor a card which simply is too good and banned in multiple formats, or Ponder a card that is simply too good in a specific context and removed from modern as a tweak. Emo was making the argument that scum shouldn't EVER have the ability because it is inherently too powerful. While it is possible to create a magic format where JTMS is balanced; you would likely have to jump through many a hoop to do so. He was giving it a 20 out of 10 on the power scale. The probably of town being juiced enough to compete with that doesn't change it's power rating.
Also, hawk, can you answer my bolded question? kthx
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys believe that ID's role, as it has been claimed, is too powerful to be a mafia role?
My logic was:
The role as scum would help the mafia more than the role as town would help the town; therefore, the role seems like it would be more likely found on scum.
But from a mod standpoint, the role would be given to the town for the exact reason stated above?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Yeah, I'm assuming you mean vote count. If you'd like to see the post count, you can click on the "Total Posts" number to the side of the thread in the main forum. I will take requests as well, but understand that I don't usually get on until about midnight in the US.
Vote Count:
Id_Ego (5) - Emocakes, Generic, Cantripmancer, Guardman, 7hawk77
Generic (1) - iRebel
Zinger2099 (1) - GiftsTrix
7hawk77 (2) - Asenion, Zinger2099
Not Voting: Id_Ego, hansanator, parinoid
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Its irrelevant. I'll be full claiming in twilight anyways because I'm pretty sure that's the correct way to play my role.
Outdated Mafia Stats
My last two posts consisted of trying to get players to do anything in the game because it started stagnating. I explicitly stated that ego should vote for emo to see if he would try and buddy my post to get pressure off of himself. I waited a little while to vote to make sure that if anyone wanted to vote Ego. I was hoping one of you four would vote so I could keep my vote on emo.
If I come across as arrogant, I apologize. I'm just resolved to do better this game because I've hit a rough patch in mafia lately. I'm also trying to play with more confidence because second guessing myself gets me nowhere.
@Ego
I'm saying why did you go after generic and not asenion. You said that you didn't like both of them but voted one without even mentioning the other. I already explained why I tried to get you to vote emo earlier. I saw a lot of quote walls but not really many specific questions towards me.
@Hans about asking zinger who he would nightkill
I was going to just ask zinger who he thought was the most town but what's the fun in that? I could ask him a similar question that is generally understood as taboo and get to look in to his reaction and the reactions of everyone else in the process.
The reason for this question is to show if he has been paying attention to who is town this game which is something that town need to do and scum do not.
His answer was not what I was hoping for. He responded by only talking about game theory generally and not specifics. Another reason for asking was to test out his NLP. It seemed like no one else was interested in testing how far this NLP could be used. From his response I think that everyone should just ignore the fact that he even stated the NLP. It does nothing and means nothing. A third reason for asking this is the game grinded down to about a post a day and needed something to get people involved.
Either way I accomplished what I set out to do.
Outdated Mafia Stats
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
I am going to answer this because I am going to show you how your logic is flawed.
1) No because names are meaningless or else the game could be broken by a day 1 mass claim.
2) Let's for the sake of argument say that you did not read the opening. Why would you automatically believe it made him town? Your reaction can best be summed up as strange. Why is Thor automatically town? Why could the scum not have safe claims (like we know they do)? Why are you so fast to clear Generic on name alone?
Your reaction doesn't make sense. Your reaction to his claim makes it look like you were looking for an excuse to call him town. Especially when you combine that with your reasoning for voting to "spur conversation".
Id, from your actions we can conclude a few things:
1. You are voting more for appearance than scumhunting.
2. Your actions do not reflect what you are saying.
3. Your motives do not reflect a person looking for scum.
Really there is nothing town in your thought process or behavior. And you appear more interested in looking town than actually hunting scum.
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
Um...if this is true, why is it (now that you've made that statement) not the best play for us to force you to claim before twilight? I'm having a hard time imagining a claim that is appropriate for D1 twilight that isn't as appropriate (or more town-friendly) for D1 pre-lynch.
For me personally, it feels like cheating to ask the kinds of questions that would really test the NLP. Maybe that's a kind of reverse psychology that sometimes serves as an added bonus to playing with an NLP, but I don't really feel like asking Zinger questions that I wouldn't normally ask him if he hadn't announced the NLP. For instance, I'd never ask a player "can you chat privately with anyone in the game?". Asking that kind of question to Zinger would feel...like cheating.
What are your reads on the reactions of everyone else in the process?
I'd rather wait to claim to make sure that scum don't get hints on how to fake claim.
I wasn't trying to break the game and cheat, I was trying to see the boundaries of the NLP while stirring things up. I expected him to commit lies of omissions about it but I was curious how he would pull it off.
I think hans has been asking good questions.
Asenion has been acting scummy all game to bait reactions and then falls for that trick when I do it.
My opinion on ego and zinger haven't really changed. I think that zinger's reply to my question should be taken as null on his faction but allowed me to understand him as a player more.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I'm very interested in this.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I've been playing with my NLP for years and it hasn't broken a game yet. Only came close to doing so once and I changed one rule of my NLP to fix that. If you seriously think you can break the game and win by abusing my NLP then I challenge you to do so. FoS on you if you don't.
It's finally here! Sign-up for The Clone Saga: A Spider-Man Mafia 3 NOW!
Ok.
Except that it sounds like you've played in enough games to know that a simple name claim is pretty unlikely to break the game. If the games you've played in suggest otherwise, please point me to them.
In fact, can you list what games on this site you've been in?
It's not a question of standards (far be it from me to assume that I can set those). I saw your action as akin to egging on others to vote without voting yourself; participating through non-participation is scummy.
My apologies. Point retracted.
Ok, and I guess I need to half-retract this one, as well. I was thinking of the timing of your explanation post, not your confirm vote post. Still, I don't really understand why you felt that a simple "confirm vote" would generate conversation unless you knew Generic was at claim range.
Why did you say "don't answer that" here?
Ok...
++ on your interpretation of Zinger. Asenion...seems really volatile in general. I didn't read his response the way you did.
Also, any particular reason you left me out of this list?
Bloodthirsty much?
I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. Asking a player "can you chat privately with anyone in the game?" would never occur to me to ask when playing the game, so why would I take a non-mod element like an NLP and attempt to abuse it with such questions?
FoS me all you want.
Really... can we lynch him yet?
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Outdated Mafia Stats
Seriously if you have a problem with something I've said, point it out. Be specific.
It's finally here! Sign-up for The Clone Saga: A Spider-Man Mafia 3 NOW!
More like "you appear townier to me because of what you said".
Any particular reason you ignored my question?
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Defensive.
Straw Man.
Not a town Mindset.
Not even a real FoS.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Generic 35
Hawk 28
Zinger 25
Cantripmancer 23
Assension 19
Gifts 14
TK 13
Rebel 11
Hans 9
Guardman 9
Emocakes 8
Id 7
Paranoid 2
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Outbreak
Generation B1: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
And if you had read all of my previous post, I'm sure you would have found your answer.
Sadly no, no double vote (would be cool). The vote is just gone.
TYVM for the info.
I think I played a game with Gaurdman, but I might be confusing it with one of the Colo games I played back then. And yes, there is one similarity, I tend do do oemthing stupid that will get me lynch/NK before/on N2. I doubt the NK will happen though.
Yes, I can do it every night, it only lasts for one day.
what did you accomplish? yes this iz a zeriouz queztion.
And zinze you feel that no one iz azking enough queztionz, why are you voting for me? why did you wait to do it? why did you feel a need to get a rize out of me or emo before you decided to vote? why wait when you knew your vote wouldn't put me one L-2?
Again, thank you for reading any of my poztz... I did not realize the vote count waz at 5 when I confirmed vote. And I hate uzing WIFOM, but zeriouzly? you think a zcum would put vote on zomeone to get a claim and then zuddenly call that perzon town? To what endz? what zenario can you come up with where thiz endz well?
az for you zecond part... again thank you for reading my entire pozt, ezpecially when I zaid to Ibid (which mean read the above).
Meta: THOR! good guy. A main charecter. Given my idenitity, a probable addition to the game (which is why i zaid not to anzwer the queztion). Chance for zcum gambit? ~0. I underztand that zometimez zcum have zafe namez to claim, I waz in one zaid game. But, I thought honeztly, why would Thor be left out?
Yez, hiz NLP is void, can we move on from it? if we asked him the queztion he could zimply zay yez, becauze he can in fact PM any one of uz. if we were to rephraze the queztion to be "would there be repercuzzionz if you PMed anyone in the game right now?" hiz anzer would be... well I won't put wordz in hiz mouth but the point iz uzing it for meta will get you nowhere. now if you want to azk about hiz powerz and identity, go for it. if not plz stfu about NLP.
Yez, but you are forgetting that there are literaly more than 100 avengerz memberz to chooze from. why Thor?
az for the gamez i've been in: Left 4 Dead, Southpark, zome game which I can't remember the game to, and some other bazic I waz killed N0/1, zo i didn't care. there may have been otherz but all of my gamez were in the old Mafia Forumz, which to my knowledge don't exzizt anymore.
excuze me? ALL I did waz vote. try harder on thiz explenation.
becauze more votez mean people zweat more, knowing they are that much clozer to claim range. Pluz it would have gotten people to azk me about why I had confirmed. If it didn't lead to a claim, wouldn't that have been the next logical ztep?
becauze if he had anzwered the way I did, bazed off of my charceterz Identity, it would have give the zcum more (albeit rather tiny) info.
/barn (i think)
lot's of words, not a lot of explination. and you really think he desrves to be lynched over that bolded part?
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Outbreak
Generation B1: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
1. Assension's vote pozt on you made zome good pointz
2a. You are CERTAIN I am the lynch tonight
2b. You say you are going to claim at twilight.
2c. When someone asks why wait, you zay ^in bold.
2d. If you are certain I am the lynch tonight, why would you need to wait until twilight to claim? zo YOU can have more time to make a falze claim?
unvote, vote 7hawk77
Because we already have a line from point zero to point x, where x is the current post. now we have a line from point 0 to 1 and 1 to x. later I will add points 2,3,etc. so that we can zee the activity of each perzon bazed upon the mozt recent linez and can analyze better.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Outbreak
Generation B1: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
I've been pointing out scummy things by Z for a while now. Also there's plenty of explanation there, if you disagree the bolded parts fall under the categories I placed them in then say that instead of just spouting gibberish.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Outdated Mafia Stats
Also, Id_Ego, really /barn your points about 7hawk77.
It's finally here! Sign-up for The Clone Saga: A Spider-Man Mafia 3 NOW!
@Id_Ego: Don't say who, but definitely activate your ability toNight. That's how you're saying it works right? Target a player at night, they lose their vote for the next day?
Unvote
I need to reevaluate where I want my vote tomorrow. (irl tomorrow)
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
It's finally here! Sign-up for The Clone Saga: A Spider-Man Mafia 3 NOW!
Both "Z" and Scum.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Your text walls are obnoxious so I'll restate your question and then answer them.
What did I accomplish?
I already stated that I tested the NLP policy, I got the game moving forward and I got a better understanding on how zinger plays not to mention tons of reactions out of the majority of the players in the game some of which I needed better reads on. I'm voting for you because your motive behind your actions towards generic don't make any sense from town perspective and you contradict yourself. You made him claim for no reason and then cleared him for no reason. You've gone after two weak wagons very half assed so far.
Here are your posts on why you are voting me. Let me show you the validity of them.
1. You barn asenions post which I've already talked about and explained myself. He pointed out an inconsistency in which I explained why I wanted others to act and still voted you. If you didn't like my answer you should discuss that and not older posts that have already been touched on.
2a. I already stated that I am resolved and have confidence in my play. I'm convinced you are scum.
2b. I've been fighting with myself over how I want to play my role and I think that claiming is correct.
I belive if I do it during twilight, it will create beneficial WIFOM to disrupt and throw off what the scum should do at night.
2c. Believe it or not, the scum team involves more than 1 person. The day isn't over. You aren't the only scum. Someone else might get pushed in to claim range if we find a slip up.
2d. Reread 2b and 2c.
Please explain the following:
Why is role claiming in twilight scummy? Why is trying to instigate players in to posting more when the game stalls out to a post a day scummy? Why is voting for someone I believe is scum scummy?
Your vote holds no weight.
@Everyone else.
I'm perfectly fine roleclaiming whenever. I'm actually really excited about how it will play out
Outdated Mafia Stats
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Edit: @Asenion: Also got that VLA below!
Vote Count:
Id_Ego (4) - Generic, Cantripmancer, Guardman, 7hawk77
Generic (1) - iRebel
Zinger2099 (1) - GiftsTrix
7hawk77 (3) - Asenion, Id_Ego, Zinger2099
Not voting - Emocakes, hansanator, parinoid
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
2nd my Internet just went down... Again. I'm getting a new service and negotiating rates, but it will be at least a week from Friday before they can get it installed. V/LA till then since in only phone posting.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Outdated Mafia Stats
Why do you say that it wouldn't likely be a scum ability? I certainly believe that it could go either way, but if I'm looking at it the right way, I actually think its more scum oriented.
The town's greatest weapon is its vote; if that is taken away, they are nearly powerless against the mafia.
The following is a completely "what if?" scenario, but imagine that ID is scum with this ability to get rid of someone's vote. Now Id managed to survive long enough until the point where it's just two townies and himself still alive. Even if one of those remaining townies is a cop who got a guilty result on ID the previous night, they wouldn't have the man power to push the lynch through, even though both of them know that ID is scum. That day would then end in a stalemate and ID would be free to win the game.
I realize that this scenario relies on extremely precise situations, but its purpose was simply to highlight how much of a benefit this vote stealing role could be to the mafia.
I would imagine that a townie would not want to simply remove another potential townie's vote because that puts them at a disadvantage. I think that it'd be better if the vote was simply stolen so that the vote is still accounted for and town is not put at a disadvantage.
If anyone has more experience regarding setup and vote stealing roles such as the one in question, please show me if my logic is flawed. I'm somewhat troubled over this claim.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Why did you feel the need to say this? You aren't even voting for the person with the biggest wagon.
This reads: "I think these people are scum but I'm gonna contradict myself for no reason."
Outdated Mafia Stats
If you stole the vote, I'd see a higher chance of you being town. More on your claim below (response to Emocakes).
No offense, but you providing your own meta doesn't help in any way. The question was directed to others for a reason.
If this is true, you're more likely town.
Um...is zis "z" thing a thing, like an internet thing, like...
Is it supposed to be funny and not just obnoxious?
Who cares if Thor is "left out"? What we're trying to figure out is why you would town-crown Generic based on him saying "I'm Thor" when a) the OP stated that we're among shapeshifters that can copy everything about us, hinting at falseclaims being provided, and b) even if you didn't read the OP, you admitted that you've played in a game where scum were provided safeclaims.
Why does Generic's claim of "Thor" (and nothing else) make him town?
You do realize you're responding to a Zinger quote and talking to him as though he were a third person, right? If that stfu was directed at me, please adjust your attitude; I don't feel that being abrasive is necessary.
...
...
...
Really? Why are you asking me "why Thor"? Here's the conversation as I have it in my mind:
You: Generic claimed Thor; he must be town.
Me/Others: Why does a name claim clear Generic?
You: Cause Thor's a good guy. Duh.
Me/Others: Why can't the scum have falseclaims? Is it your experience that a simple nameclaim is sometimes sufficient to identify the scumteam?
You: But there are more than 100 Avengers to choose from!!1! Why Thor?
Me: ????????????
Please answer the question I bolded a few quotes up.
I was looking up some of your recent posts; the one you can't remember is the most recent, I believe, Deitrypticos (or however it's spelled). So I reiterate: did any of those play into the idea that the good guys had good guy names and the scum all had bad guy names? If so, did the scum in those games have falseclaims?
I said it was akin to egging others to vote without voting yourself. I don't care if you post a little or a lot, with ze "z's" or without (ok, I'd really sorta prefer without, but I'm not going to think poorly of you for it), but I do care if your posts tell others to participate when you don't (and I'm not saying that you're currently not participating; that's what I saw at the time you explained your "confirm vote" post).
I don't know that I really see moving a player from L-4 to L-3 as that pressuring, at least not D1.
And if Generic hadn't been suddenly at claim range, your "confirm vote" would have been a much smaller blip on my scumdar. I probably would have questioned it (mostly asking you to verbalize your reasons), but I don't know that it would have been as soon or with such concern.
How? What about your character's identity gives the scum any more or less than any other "hero's" identity?
Your error here is that Hawk, while under some suspicion, wasn't even being voted when he offered to claim during twilight, so accusing him of needing more time to create a falseclaim is bogus.
Pretty sure you're just looking for a reason to ++ another wagon.
I will admit that I have serious doubts as to the benefit of what you seem to be describing, but...knock yourself out?
If he gained an extra vote in doing so, he'd almost definitely be town. If he's telling the truth about being able to do it every night, he's likely town. But it's only testable up unto the point where it would be near-suicidal for a townie to gamble with the ability. So what's to say it isn't 1-shot/2-shot/dependent on something else? Are you going to suggest/demand that he test it every night?
Plus, behavior >>> claim except when the claim is testable conclusively. A cop claim locks the player into confirming roles or risking a loss in the end game because they lied. A town innocent can be proven (usually) within a Day. But vote manipulation, especially when it doesn't provide Id_Ego with extra votes? Not defTown by a long shot. (My apologies if my recent experience with an Iso game is clouding my judgement on this one, but I didn't see vote manipulation as defTown even before that.)
Plus, plus, this is TK's first modded game other than Mod Mafia 6. I can't see that game, so I don't know what kinds of roles he included, but I get the sense that mod mafias are more "learning tools", so I wouldn't expect this kind of role in one. How do we know that TK doesn't fall into the Iso camp with regard to which alignments this kind of role can be on?
@Id_Ego: Will you paraphrase any flavor you have related to why Black Widow is a vote thief?
I think this is the argument against this kind of ability being on scum. IMO (and I think this was the general concensus after Iso's last two games), no single role should be able to win a Day early just by virtue of staying alive to that Day. If Id's telling the truth about the ability but is scum, I'll be a bit miffed at TK for giving that role to scum.
However, that depends on Id telling the truth, which, given that he didn't state "NLP is in effect" in his first post in this game, I don't expect that he's constrained to tell the truth, even less so if he's scum.
I could see it on town because it then becomes a skilltester: are you good enough at reading your fellow players to determine one that is scum so you can hinder the scum team by preventing one of their votes? Will you risk potentially hindering your own team if you're wrong?
EWP: @Asenion: Um, in addition to Hawk's call-out, if Id's claim is "definitely scummy", why aren't you voting him for it?
@TK-Mod: Are the players voting listed in order of votes placed? If so, is Id_Ego being listed before Zinger an error? I see Zinger voting Hawk in 177 and Id voting Hawk in 207.
1 Vote / 1 Vote
Scum Win
-----------------
1 Scum / 3 Town
1 Vote / 2 Votes
Scum Win
-----------------
1 Scum / 4 Town
1 Vote / 3 Votes
Toss Up
-----------------
2 Scum / 2 Town
2 Votes / 1 Vote
Scum Win
-----------------
2 Scum / 3 Town
2 Votes / 2 Votes
Scum Win
-----------------
2 Scum / 4 Town
2 Votes / 3 Votes
Scum Win
-----------------
2 Scum / 5 Town
2 Votes / 4 Votes
Toss Up
-----------------
3 Scum / 3 Town
3 Votes / 2 Votes
Scum Win
-----------------
3 Scum / 4 Town
3 Votes / 3 Votes
Scum Win
-----------------
3 Scum / 5 Town
3 Votes / 4 Votes
Scum Win
-----------------
3 Scum / 6 Town
3 Votes / 5 Votes
Toss Up
I don't see how that ability could be on scum at all? Even the "Toss Up" scenarios are impossibly difficult for town to win. It feels like a scum ability, but I don't see it being on scum ever since the town:scum ratio has to be greater than 2:1 for town to even have a chance at winning. I don't expect a test to clear him entirely, but it would definitely put him as a strong town lean for me. I don't think we have to test it more than once.
I'm hoping I can find some time to do a reread this sunday/mondayish. I got a friend who's leaving town soon so that'll take precedence but I'll do my best.
Sig & Avvy by Disappointing Signets Inc.
CCC&G BRAGGING RIGHTS
Mafia Statistics
I collect pacifism: 228
This is not a basic.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Why did you feel the need to include the two auto-scum-wins (2v2 and 3v3)? It feels like you're throwing all these scenarios at us and saying "ZOMBIGOSH!!! If they could steal a vote, they could win in all these scenarios!!!" But two of them they'd win anyway.
I understand what you're saying, but your answer here doesn't match up. Testing it once does nothing for us (because it could be one-shot, which would make more sense for a scum ability). If he can prove that he did it N1 and N2, I'll agree that he's likely town, but (assuming 3 scum and worst-case):
D1: Mislynch (8v3)
N1: Nightkill (7v3)
D2: Confirm ability, mislynch (6v3)
N2: Nightkill (5v3)
D3: Confirm ability, but if he's targeted a townie, we lose.
Actually...doesn't that mean that even if Id's town, we can only mislynch once (unless Id stops using his ability after the first mislynch or hits scum every time after the first mislynch)? With that in mind, I can't see this ability even on town; it places far too much swinginess in the hands of one (limited benefit) ability (or gives a town player an "unlimited" ability that is really only supposed to be used once, which feels like a bastardly skilltest).
@Emocakes: Refresh my memory; why were you voting for Ego in the first place?
Basically given the claim we can postulate the following.
1. Since it is easily testable, Id is most likely telling the truth on being a vote thief.
2. I would be very surprised if as scum his vote thieving does not have a restriction.
3. Overall his claim is not telling of his alignment and should not be taken into consideration on whether he is scum or town.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
@Hawk: I really don't like your "not a basic" comment. Unless you're implying that both sides of the coin have vote manipulation, then the construction and distribution of town power has nothing to do with how good of an ability it would be on scum.
What incoming contradiction do you see re: 221?
EWP: Lookning at the logic that Cantrip is showing I think the most likely scenario of all is that Id_Ego is a liar. Either his ability has restrictions he isn't saying or he has the bravado to just flat out bluff
Ego's attack on Hawk, his claim and how he's responding to questions just seems overly defensive and deflective.
@Ego: What is your opinion of Asenion/Zinger?
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Asenion, if it's just that you're phone-posting and thus haven't gotten to my post, that's fine, but note that I asked you a question at the bottom of #222 (the hideous textwall that you're probably ignoring if your internet is restricted). To save you having to find it:
@Asenion: Um, in addition to Hawk's call-out, if Id's claim is "definitely scummy", why aren't you voting him for it?
I don't think you understood what I was getting at.
He was only adding one variable to the equation, the vote theif power role. That alone by itself as a scum role would make it very powerful. What if you add a cop to the town? What if you add a day vig to the town? Etc...
I'm saying his analysis is in a vacuum makes sense but does not fit the context of this game.
Tarmogoyf is one of the best creatures in magic ever printed, but isn't picked highly in cube draft. Magic cards just like power roles have to be assessed in the context they are used in.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Also, hawk, can you answer my bolded question? kthx
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
Outdated Mafia Stats
My logic was:
The role as scum would help the mafia more than the role as town would help the town; therefore, the role seems like it would be more likely found on scum.
But from a mod standpoint, the role would be given to the town for the exact reason stated above?
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%