Pretty crazy we already figured out that it's Cantrip, Kosa, and Seppel.
Re: Cantrip meta: see RtR and Sesame Street. His manner is exactly the same in both, and here.
Hey, more :words:. I'm starting to see a pattern.
Be specific regarding Cantrip. What _exactly_ is the same here and in those two games? I don't wanna conclude anything, I want you to show me. Because up to this point, you're just a bunch of fluff.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
1) You accuse Cantrip of being playing his scum meta;
2) I ask you to corroborate your claim with evidence;
3) You say "he's playing like game X and Y!" but don`t say _what_ he's doing here that he did in X and Y.
So are you going to substantiate your claim or just keep with the fluff?
If by deflecting you mean answering your question then adding one of my own (which btw you haven't responded to)... yeah, make a note on that. I'll make mines.
Speaking of which, why did you feel inclined to point out my "whiteknighting" of Cantrip but not Paper Punster's, who posed the same question that I did to Sir Karn in the following post?
Nice of you to white knight cantrip there kosa... Does he owe you money or something?
I'm not?
Do you think it's ok for Sir Karn to nakedly point fingers on two players less than 60 posts in?
Your vote on me came with zero justification, should I read into that? And considering I was already pressing a concern over cantrip I didn't see the reaction of sir karn as suspicious... But you singled him out, while voting for me. Strange how you didn't focus the vote with the enquiry.
If by deflecting you mean answering your question then adding one of my own (which btw you haven't responded to)... yeah, make a note on that. I'll make mines.
Speaking of which, why did you feel inclined to point out my "whiteknighting" of Cantrip but not Paper Punster's, who posed the same question that I did to Sir Karn in the following post?
Because I haven't got round to looking at him/her and their alignment. You are my current focus while cantrip continues to play badly.
I really dislike this answer. To begin with, badly isn't synonimous with scummy, but your word choice isn't what bothers me the most.
The foremost reason as to why you didn't point out PP's question to Sir Karn the way you did mine is because you didn't see it. If you check the timestamps, you'll see how your post came up right after PP's, so it's not hard to imagine that when you posted your taunt at me, PP's post wasn't up yet.
Why weren't you truthful about it instead of answering in a way to sound like you're too busy doing busy stuff?
I'm not pinning anything, I'm asking the right questions. It's not my problem if you look yourself it the mirror and see guilt all over it while answering them.
For someone who complains so much about deflection, you're doing it pretty well.
I remember having this feeling a while back. Keep at it; it gets better. Better, of course, being defined as "moderately less frustrating and confusing".
Cantrip - The whole making weak early posts by quoting the early stuff and making vague comments is my bit. Now I have to try to be useful early game.
Don't mind the early Cantrip wagon but Wildfire's vote looks like he's just trying to fit in. I haven't played with him before (and other than Punster I beleive I have played with everyone else in this game) so I have to read his meta for myself.
Kosakosa posting feels off. My post 22 was pretty clearly a joke.
Then accusing Karn of nakedly pointing fingers in 61 feels off as well.
And 66 just seems a weird question/allegation to make.
In fact as I read Generic/Kosa go back and forth page 4 I really just want to
vote KosaKosa
Also
@Seppel - Why do you feel Kosa being scum depends on Cantrip?
@Wildfire - Is your reasoning for voting Cantrip still just linking votes and saying he wasn't unlucky to draw scum?
@Dagaen - You like Cantrip. So what do you think of the Cantrip wagon then?
@BE - I demand less uselessness this game. Especially if your voting PP for being useless. Have any of the posts so far today seemed scummy to you?
I actually understand Cantripmancer's point...I think. Town is killing people passively, by voting and procedures. Scum is killing people actively, with knives and guns. Murdering sounds like the latter. I don't know fulcrum, so I won't treat that as some kind of trolling/WIFOM thing.
If Fulcrum said it without voting Seppel, you might have a point. But the fact is that he voted Seppel then said it; I don't see how you could possibly see it as wanting anything other than to lynch Seppel. He obviously wanted to vote to lynch, killing Seppel that way. Saying anything else is preposterous.
-----------------------
Let's compare some scum!Cantrip mannerisms to some town!Cantrip mannerisms:
Look at those posts. For the most part, they're long, useless, filled with fluff, and not actually scumhunting.
He asks a few questions, but surrounds them with quotes in a pile of garbage that tries to make him look like he's doing lots of things - and a lot of his questions are irrelevant to alignment, but he tries to ask them in a way that makes it seem like they are (this tactic is especially seen in Sesame Street - which I bussed him very hard for in Day 1).
As you can see, very few, if any jokes/fluff.
Much less quoting.
Mostly direct questions instead of jabs.
The posts are shorter and more to the point without crowding up the post with trash. He does this as town because he doesn't need that filler when he is town. When he's scum he feels like he needs the filler.
There's more fluff than marshmallows.
His posts are filled with quotes crowding what little actual game-relevant things he has to say, trying to make it look like he's doing more than he is.
Scum!Cantrip isn't comfortable making those short, direct posts early in the game that he makes as town early in the game.
As you can see, very few, if any jokes/fluff.
Much less quoting.
Mostly direct questions instead of jabs.
The posts are shorter and more to the point without crowding up the post with trash.
As to train on Cantrip I just can't see where it's coming from. I only played one game with Cantrip so I don't have that much experience with him and most of arguments against him are based on meta, something I was never a fan of. Unless I have major experience with someone I tend to focus on the current game alone and so far Cantrip didn't do anything that worries me that much.
When I have more time I'll look into Karn's comparison and let you know.
You "just can't see where it's coming from", but you admit you haven't even read my reasoning. That's great effort you're putting forth.
Do you think Cantrip's posts full of fluff, jabs, and not-scumhunting are townie and not worth pressing regardless of meta? Because that's what you make it sound like.
It is indeed L-2. Let's take a look at this wagon:
34: Karn votes me for meta. I believe his sincerity, and him actually researching makes me think he's town, but he's also wrong. Karn, how many times have you played in a game where I was town?
36: Generic votes me because he loves wagons on me. To ensure that there's nothing misinterpreted here, Generic, do you think I'm scum?
43: Wildfire votes me (not counted, but rectified later) for me linking people early game and defending that action, and for perceiving my response as being "agreeable to the accusation" that I'm scum. Wildfire, how many players do you know that are agreeable to being accused of being scum? How would that make any sense coming from scum?
76: iRebel says my answer sucks and that intentionally refusing to answer questions is anti-town. Generally, I'd agree. But I didn't refuse to answer; I told you not yet. I really am waiting for something to happen before I move on.
87: Wildfire actually votes for me.
105: Punster puts me at L-2, saying he can't see how anyone can interpret my "fluff" as town.
That's a terrible wagon, and it certainly doesn't get a claim from me yet. Here's what I propose:
1. We wait for the something I'm waiting for to happen. I make no promises that what I'm waiting for is going to revolutionize the gamestate, and while I'm more than ready to move on, I really don't want to until that something happens.
2. I'll then make at least one additional post--but possibly a few more, depending on the gamestate at that time--outlining something else I've noticed.
3. At any time after that one additional post, if I'm still at L-2 and one other player who's not on my wagon posts with an indication that if my next post doesn't include my claim, I'll go to L-1, I'll claim.
Anyone who can't exercise just the tiniest modicum of patience and allow the above is a doo-doo head.
That's not to say that this thread should just die while we wait, of course. By all means, let's discuss my meta. I am fully aware that self-meta is suspect at best, but I will confess that my #1 rule as scum is patience. There are plenty of opportunities when you're scum to make mistakes, and haste only increases your chances and/or amplifies mistakes already made. I learned this in my early scum games, but when I returned from my hiatus, I forgot in Apocalypse and had a reminder in the form of Prophylaxis naming me and two of my scumbuddies as scum less than 50 posts into the game. That really drilled it back into me. There will be times that I am patient when town, but there will be very few times when I am scum that I am not.
Punster's question was dumb. I wasn't "playing" at anything; I was angry that he was asking the questions he was asking when he asked them. There were better times to do so.
Kosakosa posting feels off. My post 22 was pretty clearly a joke.
No it wasn't. Hence the question.
Then accusing Karn of nakedly pointing fingers in 61 feels off as well.
Do you think it's ok for Sir Karn to nakedly point fingers on two players less than 60 posts in?
And 66 just seems a weird question/allegation to make.
So, so naive.
You point "odd" and "weird" things in my posts, in your opinion, but you never call any of them scummy. Yet you vote me. Why are you being careful with your words?
If you had doubts regarding my play(especially #66), why haven't you asked for clarification like you did with four other people in the same post?
Kosakosa posting feels off. My post 22 was pretty clearly a joke.
1 No it wasn't. Hence the question.
Then accusing Karn of nakedly pointing fingers in 61 feels off as well.
2 Do you think it's ok for Sir Karn to nakedly point fingers on two players less than 60 posts in?
And 66 just seems a weird question/allegation to make.
So, so naive.
3 You point "odd" and "weird" things in my posts, in your opinion, but you never call any of them scummy. Yet you vote me. Why are you being careful with your words?
4 If you had doubts regarding my play(especially #66), why haven't you asked for clarification like you did with four other people in the same post?
Answers in pink.
1 - Well I thought between the winking smilie and the fact it was page 1 would give it away that it wasn't serious. The lack of accompanying vote was another clue.
2 - If Karn had pushed this wagon without giving reasons then that worry me. But he has explained himself. And he explained himself before your post as well.
3 - Votes speak louder than words. But for clarification the posts highlighted came across as scummy.
4 - If you wish to clarify what you meant with post 66 (or any other posts) the floor is yours.
1 - Well I thought between the winking smilie and the fact it was page 1 would give it away that it wasn't serious. The lack of accompanying vote was another clue.
Sarcasm doesn't propagate well enough on the internet, especially when people are looking for possible scumslips. Your lack of vote was exactly what prompted my question.
2 - If Karn had pushed this wagon without giving reasons then that worry me. But he has explained himself. And he explained himself before your post as well.
The whole point is that he hadn't. He called Cantrip scum "based on meta" and called me scum based on nothing, and up to that point hadn't delved into details on neither accounts.
"Anthy you're scum. You're obviously playing your scum meta.
Unvote
Vote Anthy"
How is this reasonable at all?
3 - Votes speak louder than words. But for clarification the posts highlighted came across as scummy.
When the votes don't mesh with the words before them, it's generally a contradiction or noncommitness. Whose traits are those again?
4 - If you wish to clarify what you meant with post 66 (or any other posts) the floor is yours.
It is indeed L-2. Let's take a look at this wagon:
43: Wildfire votes me (not counted, but rectified later) for me linking people early game and defending that action, and for perceiving my response as being "agreeable to the accusation" that I'm scum. Wildfire, how many players do you know that are agreeable to being accused of being scum? How would that make any sense coming from scum?
You're right that that doesn't seem like a thing that a scum would do. Except WIFOM etc.
I think you've handled the pressure pretty well, though. Reluctance (and not outright refusal) to claim this early also looks like it comes from a town mindset.
Unvote. You go in the maybe pile for now.
I'll find a more fitting place for that vote when I've got some more time.
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1 - Well I tried to make it obvious. Either way it was joke. Time to let it go.
2 - Well meta is a reason isn't it. You can certainly argue you think it's bad reason if you feel that way, but you can't say he had no reason.
3 - True. And if I had stuff like "Kosakosa made an amazing point on Karn" or "Kosa's scumhunting was top notch here" then my vote would be completely out of place.
4 - No rush. I'm off to bed soon so you I can read the rest in the morning.
Erm, off the top of my head the game that shall never be mentioned by me, marvel madness 2, deus ex, majoras mask I think would be in the last six?, and possibly apocalypse mafia... Oh Sesame Street was in there.
Thanks.
Quote from Generic »
Cantrip, what flaws the last six films you watched?
Kill Bill, v1 & 2, Father of the Year (messed up, by the way), The Big Wedding, The Bag Man, and... . I asked because if you knew off the top of your head, it'd be easier than me searching.
2 - I don't think it's necessarily a bad reason. Anything can be a good reason as long it's substantiated, which Karn didn't in consecutive posts regarding different people. It obviously doesn't make his scum, but bears clarification.
3 - Your example is hyperbolic but the root logic is the same. Using words like "odd" and "weird" to perform a vote may, in some cases, belong to the same basic scum mindset of your example: scum's necessity of fabricating reads to justify their votes (and occasionally contradict themselves). The difference lies solely on its subtlety.
Hm.
Seriously, though... what are you playing at?
gg no re
Possibly Kosa or Karn or anyone who hasn't posted.
Cantrip is town.
If not mentioned above, anyone already voting Generic is probably town.
Also:
And now he's doing math.
Why are you trying to appear casual, smart-y and disengaged when, in fact, you're carefully planning your posts?
Re: Cantrip meta: see RtR and Sesame Street. His manner is exactly the same in both, and here.
Hey, more :words:. I'm starting to see a pattern.
Be specific regarding Cantrip. What _exactly_ is the same here and in those two games? I don't wanna conclude anything, I want you to show me. Because up to this point, you're just a bunch of fluff.
I wonder.
Follows up with
Because I don't see anything scummy in what Fulcrum said and Cantrip's vote feels weak/opportunistic.
@Cantrip: I'm not patient, and your answer sucks. Intentionally refusing to answer questions without a valid reason is anti-town.
Vote: Cantrip
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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Huh, no?
1) You accuse Cantrip of being playing his scum meta;
2) I ask you to corroborate your claim with evidence;
3) You say "he's playing like game X and Y!" but don`t say _what_ he's doing here that he did in X and Y.
So are you going to substantiate your claim or just keep with the fluff?
My vote on you was RVS. Why it took you so long to notice/complain about it?
Speaking of which, why did you feel inclined to point out my "whiteknighting" of Cantrip but not Paper Punster's, who posed the same question that I did to Sir Karn in the following post?
Also, remember to unvote...
Vote Count
Generic (2) - Wildfire393, Kosakosa
Seppel (1) - fulcrum
Burning_Earth (1) - Antny223
Wildfire 393 (1) - Seppel
fulcrum (1) - Cantripmancer
Cantripmancer (3) - Sir Karn, Generic, iRebel
Paper_Punster (1) - Burning_Earth
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch! Let me know if the count's wrong. (Unless you forgot to unvote!)
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StaffAlright. Unvote, vote Cantripmancer
That's where my vote was, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that.
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Kosa is town unless scum with Cantrip. And I doubt Cantrip is scum.
Elated.
Why is there no vote in this post?
How is it different from his town games?
Answers for what?
I really dislike this answer. To begin with, badly isn't synonimous with scummy, but your word choice isn't what bothers me the most.
The foremost reason as to why you didn't point out PP's question to Sir Karn the way you did mine is because you didn't see it. If you check the timestamps, you'll see how your post came up right after PP's, so it's not hard to imagine that when you posted your taunt at me, PP's post wasn't up yet.
Why weren't you truthful about it instead of answering in a way to sound like you're too busy doing busy stuff?
For someone who complains so much about deflection, you're doing it pretty well.
Why do you say this?
This thread is drowning in self-confidence.
To which I can only say:
-----------------
There wasn't anything scummy in what Fulcrum said.
I'm waiting for something. But you're welcome to park your vote on me for the interim.
I remember having this feeling a while back. Keep at it; it gets better. Better, of course, being defined as "moderately less frustrating and confusing".
Wait for it...
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StaffIf you're going to color your votes, could you use something other than unreadable neon yellow?
You make a decent point on Fulcrum, but I feel like Cantrip is the scummier of the two.
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Punster - I would make a great president.
And now serious stuff is happening
unvote
Cantrip - The whole making weak early posts by quoting the early stuff and making vague comments is my bit. Now I have to try to be useful early game.
Don't mind the early Cantrip wagon but Wildfire's vote looks like he's just trying to fit in. I haven't played with him before (and other than Punster I beleive I have played with everyone else in this game) so I have to read his meta for myself.
Kosakosa posting feels off. My post 22 was pretty clearly a joke.
Then accusing Karn of nakedly pointing fingers in 61 feels off as well.
And 66 just seems a weird question/allegation to make.
In fact as I read Generic/Kosa go back and forth page 4 I really just want to
vote KosaKosa
Also
@Seppel - Why do you feel Kosa being scum depends on Cantrip?
@Wildfire - Is your reasoning for voting Cantrip still just linking votes and saying he wasn't unlucky to draw scum?
@Dagaen - You like Cantrip. So what do you think of the Cantrip wagon then?
@BE - I demand less uselessness this game. Especially if your voting PP for being useless. Have any of the posts so far today seemed scummy to you?
If Fulcrum said it without voting Seppel, you might have a point. But the fact is that he voted Seppel then said it; I don't see how you could possibly see it as wanting anything other than to lynch Seppel. He obviously wanted to vote to lynch, killing Seppel that way. Saying anything else is preposterous.
-----------------------
Let's compare some scum!Cantrip mannerisms to some town!Cantrip mannerisms:
Scum!Cantrip isos:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?by-author=Cantripmancer&display-type=0&display-type=0&forum-scope=f&page=8&search-thread-id=546463&search-type=0&submit=y
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?by-author=Cantripmancer&display-type=0&display-type=0&forum-scope=f&page=2&search-thread-id=520093&search-type=0&submit=y
Look at those posts. For the most part, they're long, useless, filled with fluff, and not actually scumhunting.
He asks a few questions, but surrounds them with quotes in a pile of garbage that tries to make him look like he's doing lots of things - and a lot of his questions are irrelevant to alignment, but he tries to ask them in a way that makes it seem like they are (this tactic is especially seen in Sesame Street - which I bussed him very hard for in Day 1).
---
Town!Cantrip iso'ed here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?by-author=Cantripmancer&display-type=0&display-type=0&forum-scope=f&page=4&search-thread-id=538359&search-type=0&submit=y
As you can see, very few, if any jokes/fluff.
Much less quoting.
Mostly direct questions instead of jabs.
The posts are shorter and more to the point without crowding up the post with trash. He does this as town because he doesn't need that filler when he is town. When he's scum he feels like he needs the filler.
---
Let's iso this game: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=558732&search-forum-id=&forum-scope=f&prefix=&display-type=0&search=&search-type=0&by-author=Cantripmancer&begin-date=&begin-time=&end-date=&end-time=&min-posts=&min-views=&prefix=&display-type=0&submit=y
There's more fluff than marshmallows.
His posts are filled with quotes crowding what little actual game-relevant things he has to say, trying to make it look like he's doing more than he is.
Scum!Cantrip isn't comfortable making those short, direct posts early in the game that he makes as town early in the game.
@Antny: Because I can't see him being scum unless his weirdness is attributable to being scum with Cantrip.
Thanks for the non-answer. I'm real glad your question was so important.
You know that's worthless for determining your alignment.
That's a dumb non-answer.
Because they're dumb.
Okay Generic may be scum.
Never mind, he's probably town.
He was also a cop that game.
I'm gonna unvote, vote Paper Punster
You "just can't see where it's coming from", but you admit you haven't even read my reasoning. That's great effort you're putting forth.
Do you think Cantrip's posts full of fluff, jabs, and not-scumhunting are townie and not worth pressing regardless of meta? Because that's what you make it sound like.
------------
Yea, Seppel definitely scum.
34: Karn votes me for meta. I believe his sincerity, and him actually researching makes me think he's town, but he's also wrong. Karn, how many times have you played in a game where I was town?
36: Generic votes me because he loves wagons on me. To ensure that there's nothing misinterpreted here, Generic, do you think I'm scum?
43: Wildfire votes me (not counted, but rectified later) for me linking people early game and defending that action, and for perceiving my response as being "agreeable to the accusation" that I'm scum. Wildfire, how many players do you know that are agreeable to being accused of being scum? How would that make any sense coming from scum?
76: iRebel says my answer sucks and that intentionally refusing to answer questions is anti-town. Generally, I'd agree. But I didn't refuse to answer; I told you not yet. I really am waiting for something to happen before I move on.
87: Wildfire actually votes for me.
105: Punster puts me at L-2, saying he can't see how anyone can interpret my "fluff" as town.
That's a terrible wagon, and it certainly doesn't get a claim from me yet. Here's what I propose:
1. We wait for the something I'm waiting for to happen. I make no promises that what I'm waiting for is going to revolutionize the gamestate, and while I'm more than ready to move on, I really don't want to until that something happens.
2. I'll then make at least one additional post--but possibly a few more, depending on the gamestate at that time--outlining something else I've noticed.
3. At any time after that one additional post, if I'm still at L-2 and one other player who's not on my wagon posts with an indication that if my next post doesn't include my claim, I'll go to L-1, I'll claim.
Anyone who can't exercise just the tiniest modicum of patience and allow the above is a doo-doo head.
That's not to say that this thread should just die while we wait, of course. By all means, let's discuss my meta. I am fully aware that self-meta is suspect at best, but I will confess that my #1 rule as scum is patience. There are plenty of opportunities when you're scum to make mistakes, and haste only increases your chances and/or amplifies mistakes already made. I learned this in my early scum games, but when I returned from my hiatus, I forgot in Apocalypse and had a reminder in the form of Prophylaxis naming me and two of my scumbuddies as scum less than 50 posts into the game. That really drilled it back into me. There will be times that I am patient when town, but there will be very few times when I am scum that I am not.
Punster's question was dumb. I wasn't "playing" at anything; I was angry that he was asking the questions he was asking when he asked them. There were better times to do so.
So...you see Generic as obvtown?
Because they usually are. A wagon on you is pointless this early in the game.
Cantrip said at some point that he's terrified of me if he gets scum. I'm not seeing that terror this game.
Already tilting less than 100 posts in? It's gonna be a loooong game...
Answers in pink.
1 - Well I thought between the winking smilie and the fact it was page 1 would give it away that it wasn't serious. The lack of accompanying vote was another clue.
2 - If Karn had pushed this wagon without giving reasons then that worry me. But he has explained himself. And he explained himself before your post as well.
3 - Votes speak louder than words. But for clarification the posts highlighted came across as scummy.
4 - If you wish to clarify what you meant with post 66 (or any other posts) the floor is yours.
Pink is the warmest color.
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StaffYou're right that that doesn't seem like a thing that a scum would do. Except WIFOM etc.
I think you've handled the pressure pretty well, though. Reluctance (and not outright refusal) to claim this early also looks like it comes from a town mindset.
Unvote. You go in the maybe pile for now.
I'll find a more fitting place for that vote when I've got some more time.
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2 - Well meta is a reason isn't it. You can certainly argue you think it's bad reason if you feel that way, but you can't say he had no reason.
3 - True. And if I had stuff like "Kosakosa made an amazing point on Karn" or "Kosa's scumhunting was top notch here" then my vote would be completely out of place.
4 - No rush. I'm off to bed soon so you I can read the rest in the morning.
Thanks.
Kill Bill, v1 & 2, Father of the Year (messed up, by the way), The Big Wedding, The Bag Man, and...
A very tiny meta, but yes.
unvote, vote Cantrip
3 - Your example is hyperbolic but the root logic is the same. Using words like "odd" and "weird" to perform a vote may, in some cases, belong to the same basic scum mindset of your example: scum's necessity of fabricating reads to justify their votes (and occasionally contradict themselves). The difference lies solely on its subtlety.
@Cantrip: I feel that I've played with enough Generics to say that Generic is likely town. Notably for posts like these:
A Generic wagon is not good for determining his alignment though. It's good for determining others' alignments.
Generic v. Kosa reads like a town slapfight.