I personally think it would be cool if we didn't have month-long Days where we end up going to 15 minutes before deadline where we eventually lynch someone we weren't happy about because we didn't decide on things sooner.
I mean, we're a ways off from that at this point, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with taking things at a faster pace than usual. Especially when my points on Cantrip are so good already.
[quote from="Generic »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/558732-87-night-mafia-night-1-nocturne?comment=118"]I mean, we're a ways off from that at this point, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with taking things at a faster pace than usual. Especially when my points on Cantrip are so good already.
You can't say "good points" when you've made only one point and you have yet to even prove it.
I don’t like the wagon on Cantrip and he’s likely waiting for me, so I should probably, you know, post. First off, I’m not meta-diving. Someone besides Seppel assess Karn’s meta points and get back to me.
See this, this is towny. Generic makes a joking/stupid accusation that he can’t possibly believe the moment Cantrip votes for me, and Cantrip then accuses him of bussing. Absolutely natural.
So, Fulcrum, can you explain why did you use such heavy word as "murder" when it comes to Seppel? And what do you think of Cantripmancer?
I want you to know that your post made me cry a little bit on the inside. Anyway, I did it to make the vote a bit more aggressive and to give off a “That belonged in a scum qt, so she probably doesn’t have one” vibe. See the rest of this post for my stance on Cantrip.
Had it not been for meta wildfire wouldn't have been still alive in deus ex. Myself and Rhand consider ourselves kind of experts on a wildfire read at the moment.
@Karn: Psst, is a fast wagon generally more indicative that the wagoned is town or scum?
What a terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible question.
Not only do we all know it can go both ways, but the way you worded it with the "psst" and then the weak attempt at trying to soft-clear yourself as town, without even having the courage to give your own answer. You want me to answer, but the answer you want (town) isn't what is correct.
[quote from="Generic »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/558732-87-night-mafia-night-1-nocturne?comment=118"]I mean, we're a ways off from that at this point, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with taking things at a faster pace than usual. Especially when my points on Cantrip are so good already.
You can't say "good points" when you've made only one point and you have yet to even prove it.
</blockquote>
He's filling his posts with fluff to cover up the fact that he's not scumhunting.
Not only is that scummy on its own, but it lines up with his scum meta, and does not line up with his town meta. And I detailed how with examples, which also showed how his mannerisms and posting style here match his scum game and do not match his town game.
Nice of you to join us Dag.
If you're going to color your votes, could you use something other than unreadable neon yellow?
You make a decent point on Fulcrum, but I feel like Cantrip is the scummier of the two.
Why was it a decent point? Do you think one of Cantrip and I are likely scum?
Wildfire: What changed between post 43 and post 125?
Unvote
Vote Wildfire
The language "murder" did seem out of place here. However, at the time, I was of the opinion that Cantrip was likely scum, and I can't see scum jumping on another scum like that so early in the game.
As for what changed between 43 and 125... 125 was in direct response to Cantrip's reaction to his wagon. I felt that his reaction seemed genuine and from a town mindset.
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It is indeed L-2. Let's take a look at this wagon:
43: Wildfire votes me (not counted, but rectified later) for me linking people early game and defending that action, and for perceiving my response as being "agreeable to the accusation" that I'm scum. Wildfire, how many players do you know that are agreeable to being accused of being scum? How would that make any sense coming from scum?
You're right that that doesn't seem like a thing that a scum would do. Except WIFOM etc.
Because it looks like you got called out on bull***** and backpedaled.
It is indeed L-2. Let's take a look at this wagon:
43: Wildfire votes me (not counted, but rectified later) for me linking people early game and defending that action, and for perceiving my response as being "agreeable to the accusation" that I'm scum. Wildfire, how many players do you know that are agreeable to being accused of being scum? How would that make any sense coming from scum?
You're right that that doesn't seem like a thing that a scum would do. Except WIFOM etc.
Because it looks like you got called out on bull***** and backpedaled.
He asked a question. I contemplated it. I don't know why a scum would be agreeable to calling a scum. Did you miss the part where I then proceeded to call it WIFOM? He could simply be saying that because he thinks that a scum wouldn't say it.
The real thing that had me changing my mind was the way that he handled being taken up to L-2 within the first few pages of the game.
Alright. Unvote, vote Cantripmancer
That's where my vote was, and I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that.
Also, why did you feel the need to explain your continued vote for Cantrip when TK-421 forgot to count it?
I don't care that the usage of "murder" was out of place. Why is it indicative of scum?
Saying that's where my vote was is explaining my continued vote?
Also, with my vote coming so early, it was a good idea to reaffirm that I still believed (at that point) in the wagon.
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Dagaen and Cantrip are on you. Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
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He asked a question. I contemplated it. I don't know why a scum would be agreeable to calling a scum. Did you miss the part where I then proceeded to call it WIFOM? He could simply be saying that because he thinks that a scum wouldn't say it.
The real thing that had me changing my mind was the way that he handled being taken up to L-2 within the first few pages of the game.
Then why did you attack Cantrip for being agreeable to being called scum in the first place? You must have had some reasoning.
Saying that's where my vote was is explaining my continued vote?
Also, with my vote coming so early, it was a good idea to reaffirm that I still believed (at that point) in the wagon.
No. The first sentence ("Forcing unvotes this time?") conveyed that your vote hadn't been counted. You then spelled out that your vote was on Cantrip and said "I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that." The last part was completely unnecessary, as it didn't address anything in the thread and only served to reaffirm a suspicion. Why did you post it?
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Dagaen and Cantrip are on you. Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
You said Dagean made a good point, which implies that you agreed with him about it being scummy. Were you trying to push for my lynch without getting your hands dirty?
Nice doubt-cast there. Dagaen and Cantrip's votes do not interest me, as Dagaen's was stupid and Cantrip's reactions have been towny. I might engage them when they start posting again or I might not, but you can rest assured that it won't distract me from you.
If you think Cantrip is town for his reaction to the wagon, then your reasoning here ("However, at the time, I was of the opinion that Cantrip was likely scum, and I can't see scum jumping on another scum like that so early in the game.") is no longer valid. Am I scum, Wildfire? If I'm not, who is?
Kosa: Nice to see you on board. I'd like to know why.
Because I don't see anything scummy in what Fulcrum said and Cantrip's vote feels weak/opportunistic.
There wasn't anything scummy in what Fulcrum said.
Huh. Then why the vote?
It was the third “RVS“ vote on Seppel, and yours felt overly verbose, a little nervous. While I normally would wait until someone was put to L-3, this is a generally more experienced group, and I doubted that anyone would actually go that far.
The naked “serious” vote was intentional to prompt reactions. I was hoping you’d post a little sooner so that I could gauge you better, but that’s ok; I got a few other reactions that I think are worthwhile (more on that below).
@Karn: Psst, is a fast wagon generally more indicative that the wagoned is town or scum?
What a terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible question.
Not only do we all know it can go both ways, but the way you worded it with the "psst" and then the weak attempt at trying to soft-clear yourself as town, without even having the courage to give your own answer. You want me to answer, but the answer you want (town) isn't what is correct.
Without having the courage? There was no need to give my own answer; it was obviously implied what I believe (and I've said so before in other games).
I must have missed it.
I don't think we have. But I've skimmed/read over some games you happened to be town in.
Well, let’s look at my recent town games:
• Mostly Mute: I suspect this game will never be good for meta.
• Llamas With Hats: Well, here’s one we played together in, both town. Of course, I was nightkilled N1 (as vanilla, yes!), so maybe that’s why you don’t remember it. What was the first thing I did in this game, Karn?
• Star Wars: As has been pointed out, I was a cop, and in no way wanted to be wagoned. I’m also much more focused in larger games because they go on forever, not to mention that it was a league game. Serious business.
• We also played together in Porn Mafia; I was town and you were scum. But I lurked hard that game, so I’m not surprised you forgot about it. I would assert that it’s also bad for early game meta because I came in far after RVS and my first few posts are catchups.
• Marvel Madness I I very quickly got into it with Zinger on his NLP (don’t ask). Not my average early game.
• Disney Villains, but that’s hard to early-game meta because I replaced in almost 400 posts in.
• Survival Horror I was a miller, and my first posts surrounded my immediate claim.
• Chimes I had just gotten nightkilled as the doctor in Stein’s Gate, and I was the doctor again, so I was being more cautious.
• Stein’s Gate: FWIW, iso’ing me in Stein’s is similar to iso’ing me here. Not indicative, but does show that I do this kind of thing as town, too.
• Megiddo’s Avatars: Another replaced in.
• Before that was a one-year hiatus.
So you actually have played with me as town and as scum, but your experience with me as town is very limited. And my previous town games have had very little in common with the current game, especially early game. So my question is: How would you know if this is my town game or not? I will concede some similarity between my play here and my scum games, but I generally try to make the two feel identical, which is why I’ve been complimented in the past on being the unexpected scum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving On:
I still have some mild suspicions on fulcrum, depending on responses to the above, but what I’m really happy about is what emerged from that little sequence: I believe Generic is scum, and I have multiple behavioral reasons for my suspicions. Unfortunately, he’s out for an unspecified time, and I don’t know that it’s really sporting to lay out my arguments on him while he’s gone.
Opinions?
Unvote fulcrum, vote Generic
FoS Antny for that overjustification in trying to restart my wagon.
EWP: We can explore Wildfire and fulcrum for now, and I'll outline my concerns with Generic when he returns.
I like your case, especially your point on his vote reaffirmation, and dislike his response, especially the passive-aggressiveness of the last sentence.
@Kosa - Right but the example (which was clearly absurd) involved a clear contradiction. My original post didn't (at least not if your familiar with style). The essence is I didn't like your posting so I voted you. Let's not overcomplicate this matter further.
The old fake meta reading Generic to avoid doing work. Classic scum play. I actually want to get on the Cantrip wagon myself now.
What work am I using fake meta reading to avoid doing?
The correct response was "I'm not fake metareading!!! DIF ".
As for your question, you have a whole lovely wagon (which would an early wagon on town if you are town) which you could look at. Are you really telling that metareading Generic off the few early posts he's made is more likely to find scum right now?
I still have some mild suspicions on fulcrum, depending on responses to the above, but what I’m really happy about is what emerged from that little sequence: I believe Generic is scum, and I have multiple behavioral reasons for my suspicions. Unfortunately, he’s out for an unspecified time, and I don’t know that it’s really sporting to lay out my arguments on him while he’s gone.
Opinions?
Unvote fulcrum, vote Generic
I'm sorry but it's unsporting to lay out your reasons but a vote is fair game. What kind of BS is that?
FoS Antny for that overjustification in trying to restart my wagon.
Your calling a single reason overjustification. Should I only vote you with half a reason next time or something?
EWP: We can explore Wildfire and fulcrum for now, and I'll outline my concerns with Generic when he returns.
But why not explore me. I just got a FoS and everything???
He asked a question. I contemplated it. I don't know why a scum would be agreeable to calling a scum. Did you miss the part where I then proceeded to call it WIFOM? He could simply be saying that because he thinks that a scum wouldn't say it.
The real thing that had me changing my mind was the way that he handled being taken up to L-2 within the first few pages of the game.
Then why did you attack Cantrip for being agreeable to being called scum in the first place? You must have had some reasoning.
It wasn't the only reason. The linking players pre-flip (and two pages in) was a bigger issue. It was just something that struck me as odd, and I was interested to see what his reaction to it was.
Saying that's where my vote was is explaining my continued vote?
Also, with my vote coming so early, it was a good idea to reaffirm that I still believed (at that point) in the wagon.
No. The first sentence ("Forcing unvotes this time?") conveyed that your vote hadn't been counted. You then spelled out that your vote was on Cantrip and said "I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that." The last part was completely unnecessary, as it didn't address anything in the thread and only served to reaffirm a suspicion. Why did you post it?
I don't see anything wrong with reaffirming my suspicion there. There had been progress on the wagon in the previous pages, with Karn bringing up some relevant meta and Cantrip refusing to give answers to questions. Nothing I had seen there had given me reason not to be suspicious, so I was doing exactly that.
Had I been on a better browser, I likely would have quoted the information that kept me in suspicions, but the computer I was on only has an older IE and thus the quote function was not working.
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Dagaen and Cantrip are on you. Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
You said Dagean made a good point, which implies that you agreed with him about it being scummy. Were you trying to push for my lynch without getting your hands dirty?
Nice doubt-cast there. Dagaen and Cantrip's votes do not interest me, as Dagaen's was stupid and Cantrip's reactions have been towny. I might engage them when they start posting again or I might not, but you can rest assured that it won't distract me from you.
If you think Cantrip is town for his reaction to the wagon, then your reasoning here ("However, at the time, I was of the opinion that Cantrip was likely scum, and I can't see scum jumping on another scum like that so early in the game.") is no longer valid. Am I scum, Wildfire? If I'm not, who is?
Kosa: Nice to see you on board. I'd like to know why.
As far as scum go, if I didn't think Cantrip was scum earlier, I likely would have suspected you for the "murder" line. However, your play since then has me thinking you're in the town pile.
It's too early for concrete reads, but people I've got my eye on are:
Dagaen - He's been pretty scarce so far this game. He ran into a fair amount of early suspicion in Deus Ex for his inability to RVS well. His late arrival could be indicative of trying to avoid this. He's also only really addressed two or three posts, including having his vote on you for the "murder" thing, which seems opportunistic.
Burning_Earth - If you look at uPick, BE loves his manic and overblown early game interactions as town. I see none of that here, which has me worried.
Paper Punster - He was the L-2 vote on Cantrip. The wagon seemed to be losing a little steam at that point, so this looks like an attempt to fish an early claim out of him.
Generic - If all of my games with Generic have taught me a single thing, it's that Generic is always anti-town but will never read as it. The fact that I'm townreading him so far means he's probably scum again.
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BE is giving me pause. He's not ***** posting left and right unlike Futurama and uPick (I think it was Futurama. Might've been Tales). We're 150+ posts in and he's got three posts. Something feels off here.
What do you think of Seppel, Fulcrum, and Generic, BE?
Cantrip, #95: Call it splitting hairs, but "not yet" and "I'm waiting for something" are not one in the same to me. "Not yet" is passive and doesn't, to me, show a proactive state of mind, whereas "I will answer your question after <insert>" is proactive. The former does not sit well with me.
Dagaen, #103: Explain to me, in your own words, why you're voting for fulcrum.
Cantrip, #114: I'm okay with how he handles his L-2 here. Unvote.
Antny, #128: Don't like this post. Don't like it at all.
Fulcrum, #140: I'm not white knighting you. At least not by my definition of "white knighting".
Cantrip, #150: If you have the case, lay it out. Second Antny in #152.
Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
The old fake meta reading Generic to avoid doing work. Classic scum play. I actually want to get on the Cantrip wagon myself now.
What work am I using fake meta reading to avoid doing?
The correct response was "I'm not fake metareading!!! DIF ".
No, the correct response was to call you out on your mudslinging.
Quote from Antny »
As for your question, you have a whole lovely wagon (which would an early wagon on town if you are town) which you could look at. Are you really telling that metareading Generic off the few early posts he's made is more likely to find scum right now?
Hint: Generic is on my wagon. But if you want my perspective on the wagon itself:
• I think Karn's sincere; he's doing footwork, which isn't impossible for scum, but I think it's less likely for scum!Karn.
• My vote's on Generic; enough said until I provide my reasoning.
• A few of Wildfire's responses have given me pause, but his most recent responses to fulcrum are calm and open. Not terribly concerned at the moment.
• iRebel pursued me as a policy lynch, which, in my experience, can come from town or scum. More input required.
• Punster...I'm still trying to figure out. I don't like that he thinks I'm scum, and some of his posts are questionable, but I'm still not getting scumvibes.
And since I feel like I have solid arguments on Generic, why would I push elsewhere?
Moving On:
I still have some mild suspicions on fulcrum, depending on responses to the above, but what I’m really happy about is what emerged from that little sequence: I believe Generic is scum, and I have multiple behavioral reasons for my suspicions. Unfortunately, he’s out for an unspecified time, and I don’t know that it’s really sporting to lay out my arguments on him while he’s gone.
Opinions? Unvote fulcrum, vote Generic
I'm sorry but it's unsporting to lay out your reasons but a vote is fair game. What kind of BS is that?
No BS. My vote shows that I'm serious and not just slinging generic (heh) mud. But providing specifics when he's unable to participate runs the risk of influencing everyone against Generic before he even knows he's being attacked. I know I'd be ticked if I came back from an emergency situation and found everyone waiting with a noose.
Quote from Antny »
FoS Antny for that overjustification in trying to restart my wagon.
Your calling a single reason overjustification. Should I only vote you with half a reason next time or something?
It felt like you had to fabricate a reason to get on my wagon. Why did you think it was “fake meta reading”?
EWP: iRebel: I don’t feel like Antny said “go ahead and present the case”; he questioned my actions regarding that argument. I’m still torn. The player in me wants to lay it out; my humanity says that it’s not fair.
Cantrip, #95: Call it splitting hairs, but "not yet" and "I'm waiting for something" are not one in the same to me. "Not yet" is passive and doesn't, to me, show a proactive state of mind, whereas "I will answer your question after <insert>" is proactive. The former does not sit well with me.
I guess I would call it splitting hairs. I feel that "not yet" implies that an answer is still forthcoming (and I hope you don't think I'm naive enough to think that you'd let me skate by on it). I also wanted--at that time--to be more vague than specific; garners better reactions.
Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
My vote was on him when we were barely out of RVS. I wanted to reaffirm that I felt it belonged there.
Also, I have my eye on Dagaen because I just got out of a game with him, where he was scum, so I have a better meta sense on him. You, I have no idea how frequently you usually post.
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Wildfire explicitly states that he'd have hopped on Fulcrum for saying "murder" if he wasn't already on cantrip, yet not a paragraph later does he put Dagaen in his scum pile for "opportunistically voting fulcrum for saying 'murder'."
Wildfire explicitly states that he'd have hopped on Fulcrum for saying "murder" if he wasn't already on cantrip, yet not a paragraph later does he put Dagaen in his scum pile for "opportunistically voting fulcrum for saying 'murder'."
:uh:
Dag came in late, picked one post from before he was there that was already being addressed by multiple people, and he parked himself there.
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I'm not sold on a Wildfire lynch yet, but if we go there, I ask that I get to post my thoughts on Generic first, even if he's not back yet. We don't need the WIFOM that my death would cause.
I smell something off because, as best as I can recall, I never did math.
I figured you were just commenting on my posting reasons about why Cantrip was scum, as I often do -'s in front of my reasons. But looking again, I'm not even seeing any. Mods can check, but I didn't delete anything (TK would have smote me by now if I had).
Have you been taking your meds sep?
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Cantrip, #95: Call it splitting hairs, but "not yet" and "I'm waiting for something" are not one in the same to me. "Not yet" is passive and doesn't, to me, show a proactive state of mind, whereas "I will answer your question after <insert>" is proactive. The former does not sit well with me.
I guess I would call it splitting hairs. I feel that "not yet" implies that an answer is still forthcoming (and I hope you don't think I'm naive enough to think that you'd let me skate by on it). I also wanted--at that time--to be more vague than specific; garners better reactions.
I don't believe you to be naive, no. You're right that both "not yet" and "I'm waiting for something" imply an answer to come, but "not yet" doesn't give us any idea as to when or what, exactly you're waiting on. That feels passive to me. "I'm waiting for something" at least gives the appearance that you have a reason in mind, which feels proactive.
It is a bit hair-splitty, and perhaps I'm not articulating it very well, but the two feel as if you'd arrive at your choice of words based on alignment, which is why I voted based off it. That said, I can buy your explanation insofar as trying to garner better reactions.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
1My vote was on him when we were barely out of RVS. I wanted to reaffirm that I felt it belonged there.
2. Also, I have my eye on Dagaen because I just got out of a game with him, where he was scum, so I have a better meta sense on him. You, I have no idea how frequently you usually post.
1. That's all fine and dandy. Doesn't change anything I said.
2. Wouldn't the fact you don't know how frequently I usually be post be more of a reason to be suspect of me? Sorry, not buying your explanation.
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I smell something off because, as best as I can recall, I never did math.
I figured you were just commenting on my posting reasons about why Cantrip was scum, as I often do -'s in front of my reasons. But looking again, I'm not even seeing any. Mods can check, but I didn't delete anything (TK would have smote me by now if I had).
Have you been taking your meds sep?
Well you still haven't addressed that you made a non-RVS RVS vote.
Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
1My vote was on him when we were barely out of RVS. I wanted to reaffirm that I felt it belonged there.
2. Also, I have my eye on Dagaen because I just got out of a game with him, where he was scum, so I have a better meta sense on him. You, I have no idea how frequently you usually post.
1. That's all fine and dandy. Doesn't change anything I said.
2. Wouldn't the fact you don't know how frequently I usually be post be more of a reason to be suspect of me? Sorry, not buying your explanation.
1. Well, I don't need it to.
2. How am I supposed to assess that you're posting less frequently than usual if I don't know how frequently you post?
The good news for you is that you have made my suspect list now, for coming in in the middle of both of the wagons that have been pushed to L-2 - you're the one common element between them, and if it's scum pushing for claims (which it definitely looks like to me), that's the perfect place to stick yourself.
I smell something off because, as best as I can recall, I never did math.
I figured you were just commenting on my posting reasons about why Cantrip was scum, as I often do -'s in front of my reasons. But looking again, I'm not even seeing any. Mods can check, but I didn't delete anything (TK would have smote me by now if I had).
Have you been taking your meds sep?
Well you still haven't addressed that you made a non-RVS RVS vote.
Well, you haven't addressed why your first post appears to be some sort of flavor-gaming and avoids RVS entirely.
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Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
1My vote was on him when we were barely out of RVS. I wanted to reaffirm that I felt it belonged there.
2. Also, I have my eye on Dagaen because I just got out of a game with him, where he was scum, so I have a better meta sense on him. You, I have no idea how frequently you usually post.
1. That's all fine and dandy. Doesn't change anything I said.
2. Wouldn't the fact you don't know how frequently I usually be post be more of a reason to be suspect of me? Sorry, not buying your explanation.
1. Well, I don't need it to.
2. How am I supposed to assess that you're posting less frequently than usual if I don't know how frequently you post?
The good news for you is that you have made my suspect list now, for coming in in the middle of both of the wagons that have been pushed to L-2 - you're the one common element between them, and if it's scum pushing for claims (which it definitely looks like to me), that's the perfect place to stick yourself.
I smell something off because, as best as I can recall, I never did math.
I figured you were just commenting on my posting reasons about why Cantrip was scum, as I often do -'s in front of my reasons. But looking again, I'm not even seeing any. Mods can check, but I didn't delete anything (TK would have smote me by now if I had).
Have you been taking your meds sep?
Well you still haven't addressed that you made a non-RVS RVS vote.
Well, you haven't addressed why your first post appears to be some sort of flavor-gaming and avoids RVS entirely.
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Something feels off with you wildfire. I'm looking back and I see you fence sitting on me but with definitive opinions.
You did what most people like to do after a game where they has failed to read me correctly, and that's just assume the position that I must be scum to save you face. Believe me it's just as bad if you scum read my town game, cos I'm not the sort of person who lets you forget it.
You then go on to claim you are town readig me which therefore must make me scum? Based on what exactly? Two games where you could t tell I was scum?
How many town games of mine have you been involved in wildfire? Share that one with the group. Cos I believe the answer relates exactly to the answe to the question 'how many times will generic name the last league game he was a feature of?'.
The only town game of yours I've been in was days 1&3 of Industry. And I think you'll agree that Industry is something of an outlier. Oh, and I was scum both of those days, so I didn't even have to go through the effort of reading you.
But so far, you've read a lot like you did in Deus Ex, where despite not being town, your interests laid with the town for the entire duration of the game you were alive for. And if you were a player I hadn't played with posting as you're posting, I'd probably put you in the town pile. But I've been burned by you twice now, so you're definitely not getting off that easily. Remember my paranoia about you early D1 in Deus Ex? It's only gotten worse.
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The correct response was "I'm not fake metareading!!! DIF ".
No, the correct response was to call you out on your mudslinging.[/quote]
And yet you still did neither.
Quote from Antny »
As for your question, you have a whole lovely wagon (which would an early wagon on town if you are town) which you could look at. Are you really telling that metareading Generic off the few early posts he's made is more likely to find scum right now?
Hint: Generic is on my wagon. [/quote]
And the only way that's scummy is through Generic's meta?
But if you want my perspective on the wagon itself:
• I think Karn's sincere; he's doing footwork, which isn't impossible for scum, but I think it's less likely for scum!Karn.
• My vote's on Generic; enough said until I provide my reasoning.
• A few of Wildfire's responses have given me pause, but his most recent responses to fulcrum are calm and open. Not terribly concerned at the moment.
• iRebel pursued me as a policy lynch, which, in my experience, can come from town or scum. More input required.
• Punster...I'm still trying to figure out. I don't like that he thinks I'm scum, and some of his posts are questionable, but I'm still not getting scumvibes.
And since I feel like I have solid arguments on Generic, why would I push elsewhere?
Hard to respond until we see these solid arguments on Generic. In fact I'm gonna to hold off any more responses because I really want to see what you have as case against Generic.
With both clearly wearing velvet gloves
Why?
I personally think it would be cool if we didn't have month-long Days where we end up going to 15 minutes before deadline where we eventually lynch someone we weren't happy about because we didn't decide on things sooner.
I mean, we're a ways off from that at this point, but I certainly don't see anything wrong with taking things at a faster pace than usual. Especially when my points on Cantrip are so good already.
@Karn: Psst, is a fast wagon generally more indicative that the wagoned is town or scum?
Also, why didn't you answer my question in #114?
You can't say "good points" when you've made only one point and you have yet to even prove it.
Seppel’s post 19 (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/558732-87-night-mafia-night-1-nocturne?comment=19) feels fabricated, hence my vote on him.
I'm going to assume this was a joke, because anything else is too depressing. And, not this game, no.
See this, this is towny. Generic makes a joking/stupid accusation that he can’t possibly believe the moment Cantrip votes for me, and Cantrip then accuses him of bussing. Absolutely natural.
iRebel: Why did you white knight me? You know I’m capable of defending myself.
Cantrip’s refusal to answer iRebel is good.
Newb!scumtell alert. Why didn't you vote for Cantrip here?
Reminder: Post 62 is weird. Reassess it later.
I kind of like B_E for town. And then Seppel says the same thing, except his town read on Kosa is gross.
Huh. Then why the vote?
I want you to know that your post made me cry a little bit on the inside. Anyway, I did it to make the vote a bit more aggressive and to give off a “That belonged in a scum qt, so she probably doesn’t have one” vibe. See the rest of this post for my stance on Cantrip.
Why was it a decent point? Do you think one of Cantrip and I are likely scum?
Lovely. Could you read him for me?
Who were you talking here? What do you think of Cantrip's content?
Wildfire: What changed between post 43 and post 125?
I’m ok with Antny’s wagon jump.
Kosa is using overly formal language. I don’t like it.
Cantrip, Generic, B_E and Seppel get light town reads. Kosa and Paper_punster get light scum reads. Wildfire gets my vote. Everyone else gets nothing.
Unvote
Vote Wildfire
What a terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible question.
Not only do we all know it can go both ways, but the way you worded it with the "psst" and then the weak attempt at trying to soft-clear yourself as town, without even having the courage to give your own answer. You want me to answer, but the answer you want (town) isn't what is correct.
I must have missed it.
I don't think we have. But I've skimmed/read over some games you happened to be town in.
He's filling his posts with fluff to cover up the fact that he's not scumhunting.
Not only is that scummy on its own, but it lines up with his scum meta, and does not line up with his town meta. And I detailed how with examples, which also showed how his mannerisms and posting style here match his scum game and do not match his town game.
Vote Count:
Generic (1) - Kosakosa
fulcrum (2) - Cantripmancer, Dagaen
Cantripmancer (4) - Sir Karn, iRebel, Paper_Punster, Antny223
Paper_Punster (2) - Burning_Earth, Seppel
Wildfire393 (1) - fulcrum
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The language "murder" did seem out of place here. However, at the time, I was of the opinion that Cantrip was likely scum, and I can't see scum jumping on another scum like that so early in the game.
As for what changed between 43 and 125... 125 was in direct response to Cantrip's reaction to his wagon. I felt that his reaction seemed genuine and from a town mindset.
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Are you coaching iRebel in plain sight?
Why are you voting wildfire at all?
and this:
Because it looks like you got called out on bull***** and backpedaled.
Also, why did you feel the need to explain your continued vote for Cantrip when TK-421 forgot to count it?
I don't care that the usage of "murder" was out of place. Why is it indicative of scum?
Yeah, and my brain fell out of the back of my head yesterday too. I'm voting because he's scum, obviously.
He asked a question. I contemplated it. I don't know why a scum would be agreeable to calling a scum. Did you miss the part where I then proceeded to call it WIFOM? He could simply be saying that because he thinks that a scum wouldn't say it.
The real thing that had me changing my mind was the way that he handled being taken up to L-2 within the first few pages of the game.
Saying that's where my vote was is explaining my continued vote?
Also, with my vote coming so early, it was a good idea to reaffirm that I still believed (at that point) in the wagon.
Also, regarding "murder": I don't think it necessarily was indicative of scum. Hence why I didn't vote you for it. I think it's something that *could* be seen to be indicative of scum, though, which is why Dagaen and Cantrip are on you. Seems you're a mite touchy over it, though. I'm curious as to why my considering of it is more worthy of your attention than the two people actually voting you over it though.
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And I like even more the fact that if Wildfire is scum, he just towncleared Daegen and Cantrip.
Unvote
Vote Wildfire
Then why did you attack Cantrip for being agreeable to being called scum in the first place? You must have had some reasoning.
No. The first sentence ("Forcing unvotes this time?") conveyed that your vote hadn't been counted. You then spelled out that your vote was on Cantrip and said "I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that." The last part was completely unnecessary, as it didn't address anything in the thread and only served to reaffirm a suspicion. Why did you post it?
You said Dagean made a good point, which implies that you agreed with him about it being scummy. Were you trying to push for my lynch without getting your hands dirty?
Nice doubt-cast there. Dagaen and Cantrip's votes do not interest me, as Dagaen's was stupid and Cantrip's reactions have been towny. I might engage them when they start posting again or I might not, but you can rest assured that it won't distract me from you.
If you think Cantrip is town for his reaction to the wagon, then your reasoning here ("However, at the time, I was of the opinion that Cantrip was likely scum, and I can't see scum jumping on another scum like that so early in the game.") is no longer valid. Am I scum, Wildfire? If I'm not, who is?
Kosa: Nice to see you on board. I'd like to know why.
:/ But Seppel’s posts always feel fabricated.
…what “else” were you thinking of that would be depressing?
What did you find weird about it?
It was the third “RVS“ vote on Seppel, and yours felt overly verbose, a little nervous. While I normally would wait until someone was put to L-3, this is a generally more experienced group, and I doubted that anyone would actually go that far.
The naked “serious” vote was intentional to prompt reactions. I was hoping you’d post a little sooner so that I could gauge you better, but that’s ok; I got a few other reactions that I think are worthwhile (more on that below).
Why?
Um…as opposed to “fulcrum has a scum mindset; she’s thinking about murder”?
Why?
Without having the courage? There was no need to give my own answer; it was obviously implied what I believe (and I've said so before in other games).
Well, let’s look at my recent town games:
• Llamas With Hats: Well, here’s one we played together in, both town. Of course, I was nightkilled N1 (as vanilla, yes!), so maybe that’s why you don’t remember it. What was the first thing I did in this game, Karn?
• Star Wars: As has been pointed out, I was a cop, and in no way wanted to be wagoned. I’m also much more focused in larger games because they go on forever, not to mention that it was a league game. Serious business.
• We also played together in Porn Mafia; I was town and you were scum. But I lurked hard that game, so I’m not surprised you forgot about it. I would assert that it’s also bad for early game meta because I came in far after RVS and my first few posts are catchups.
• Marvel Madness I I very quickly got into it with Zinger on his NLP (don’t ask). Not my average early game.
• Disney Villains, but that’s hard to early-game meta because I replaced in almost 400 posts in.
• Survival Horror I was a miller, and my first posts surrounded my immediate claim.
• Chimes I had just gotten nightkilled as the doctor in Stein’s Gate, and I was the doctor again, so I was being more cautious.
• Stein’s Gate: FWIW, iso’ing me in Stein’s is similar to iso’ing me here. Not indicative, but does show that I do this kind of thing as town, too.
• Megiddo’s Avatars: Another replaced in.
• Before that was a one-year hiatus.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving On:
I still have some mild suspicions on fulcrum, depending on responses to the above, but what I’m really happy about is what emerged from that little sequence: I believe Generic is scum, and I have multiple behavioral reasons for my suspicions. Unfortunately, he’s out for an unspecified time, and I don’t know that it’s really sporting to lay out my arguments on him while he’s gone.
Opinions?
Unvote fulcrum, vote Generic
FoS Antny for that overjustification in trying to restart my wagon.
EWP: We can explore Wildfire and fulcrum for now, and I'll outline my concerns with Generic when he returns.
The correct response was "I'm not fake metareading!!! DIF ".
As for your question, you have a whole lovely wagon (which would an early wagon on town if you are town) which you could look at. Are you really telling that metareading Generic off the few early posts he's made is more likely to find scum right now?
If your already scumreading Seppel (and explicity don't trust him to metaread Cantrip) why agree with this point?
Does white knight always imply scum defending town or am I getting it wrong?
What makes you think Punster's a newb?
What is your townread on BE here based on?
@Wildfire - I know it's a little late, but can I get an answer to the question I asked in 100.
I'm sorry but it's unsporting to lay out your reasons but a vote is fair game. What kind of BS is that?
Your calling a single reason overjustification. Should I only vote you with half a reason next time or something?
But why not explore me. I just got a FoS and everything???
It wasn't the only reason. The linking players pre-flip (and two pages in) was a bigger issue. It was just something that struck me as odd, and I was interested to see what his reaction to it was.
I don't see anything wrong with reaffirming my suspicion there. There had been progress on the wagon in the previous pages, with Karn bringing up some relevant meta and Cantrip refusing to give answers to questions. Nothing I had seen there had given me reason not to be suspicious, so I was doing exactly that.
Had I been on a better browser, I likely would have quoted the information that kept me in suspicions, but the computer I was on only has an older IE and thus the quote function was not working.
As far as scum go, if I didn't think Cantrip was scum earlier, I likely would have suspected you for the "murder" line. However, your play since then has me thinking you're in the town pile.
It's too early for concrete reads, but people I've got my eye on are:
Dagaen - He's been pretty scarce so far this game. He ran into a fair amount of early suspicion in Deus Ex for his inability to RVS well. His late arrival could be indicative of trying to avoid this. He's also only really addressed two or three posts, including having his vote on you for the "murder" thing, which seems opportunistic.
Burning_Earth - If you look at uPick, BE loves his manic and overblown early game interactions as town. I see none of that here, which has me worried.
Paper Punster - He was the L-2 vote on Cantrip. The wagon seemed to be losing a little steam at that point, so this looks like an attempt to fish an early claim out of him.
Generic - If all of my games with Generic have taught me a single thing, it's that Generic is always anti-town but will never read as it. The fact that I'm townreading him so far means he's probably scum again.
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Sorry, must have missed that at the bottom of the page.
Was voting him for the linking mostly. Karn's meta on him and his refusal to answer questions contributed to my reaffirmation.
But I think I'd unvoted him by the time you asked that, because I liked his responses when he actually engaged with his wagon.
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What do you think of Seppel, Fulcrum, and Generic, BE?
Cantrip, #95: Call it splitting hairs, but "not yet" and "I'm waiting for something" are not one in the same to me. "Not yet" is passive and doesn't, to me, show a proactive state of mind, whereas "I will answer your question after <insert>" is proactive. The former does not sit well with me.
Dagaen, #103: Explain to me, in your own words, why you're voting for fulcrum.
Cantrip, #114: I'm okay with how he handles his L-2 here. Unvote.
Antny, #128: Don't like this post. Don't like it at all.
Fulcrum, #140: I'm not white knighting you. At least not by my definition of "white knighting".
Cantrip, #150: If you have the case, lay it out. Second Antny in #152.
Wildfire, #153: Reaffirming your "suspicion" reads as nervousness insofar as you feel the need to reassert yourself in light of new evidence because if you don't then you'd be viewed in a negative light. Town wouldn't care about that, now would they?
Why do you have your eye on Dagaen for being scarce, but not me?
Vote: Wildfire
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UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
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UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
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And by that I mean I'll be semi-V/LA.
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Hint: Generic is on my wagon. But if you want my perspective on the wagon itself:
• I think Karn's sincere; he's doing footwork, which isn't impossible for scum, but I think it's less likely for scum!Karn.
• My vote's on Generic; enough said until I provide my reasoning.
• A few of Wildfire's responses have given me pause, but his most recent responses to fulcrum are calm and open. Not terribly concerned at the moment.
• iRebel pursued me as a policy lynch, which, in my experience, can come from town or scum. More input required.
• Punster...I'm still trying to figure out. I don't like that he thinks I'm scum, and some of his posts are questionable, but I'm still not getting scumvibes.
And since I feel like I have solid arguments on Generic, why would I push elsewhere?
Here's a hint: he's not scumreading Seppel; he's agreeing with him.
No BS. My vote shows that I'm serious and not just slinging generic (heh) mud. But providing specifics when he's unable to participate runs the risk of influencing everyone against Generic before he even knows he's being attacked. I know I'd be ticked if I came back from an emergency situation and found everyone waiting with a noose.
It felt like you had to fabricate a reason to get on my wagon. Why did you think it was “fake meta reading”?
EWP: iRebel: I don’t feel like Antny said “go ahead and present the case”; he questioned my actions regarding that argument. I’m still torn. The player in me wants to lay it out; my humanity says that it’s not fair.
Vote wildfire I agree with you.
Unvote, vote Wildfire
My vote was on him when we were barely out of RVS. I wanted to reaffirm that I felt it belonged there.
Also, I have my eye on Dagaen because I just got out of a game with him, where he was scum, so I have a better meta sense on him. You, I have no idea how frequently you usually post.
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:uh:
Seppel and generic look unreadable, fulcrum looks bad.
Anyway, is that L-2 already? Fast!
Dag came in late, picked one post from before he was there that was already being addressed by multiple people, and he parked himself there.
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Suspiciously so, if you ask me.
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I'm not sold on a Wildfire lynch yet, but if we go there, I ask that I get to post my thoughts on Generic first, even if he's not back yet. We don't need the WIFOM that my death would cause.
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o rly
I smell a deleted post because I can't find where he did math.
I figured you were just commenting on my posting reasons about why Cantrip was scum, as I often do -'s in front of my reasons. But looking again, I'm not even seeing any. Mods can check, but I didn't delete anything (TK would have smote me by now if I had).
Have you been taking your meds sep?
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I don't believe you to be naive, no. You're right that both "not yet" and "I'm waiting for something" imply an answer to come, but "not yet" doesn't give us any idea as to when or what, exactly you're waiting on. That feels passive to me. "I'm waiting for something" at least gives the appearance that you have a reason in mind, which feels proactive.
It is a bit hair-splitty, and perhaps I'm not articulating it very well, but the two feel as if you'd arrive at your choice of words based on alignment, which is why I voted based off it. That said, I can buy your explanation insofar as trying to garner better reactions.
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Cool. Now answer my question.
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1. That's all fine and dandy. Doesn't change anything I said.
2. Wouldn't the fact you don't know how frequently I usually be post be more of a reason to be suspect of me? Sorry, not buying your explanation.
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Well you still haven't addressed that you made a non-RVS RVS vote.
1. Well, I don't need it to.
2. How am I supposed to assess that you're posting less frequently than usual if I don't know how frequently you post?
The good news for you is that you have made my suspect list now, for coming in in the middle of both of the wagons that have been pushed to L-2 - you're the one common element between them, and if it's scum pushing for claims (which it definitely looks like to me), that's the perfect place to stick yourself.
Well, you haven't addressed why your first post appears to be some sort of flavor-gaming and avoids RVS entirely.
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1. Well, I don't need it to.
2. How am I supposed to assess that you're posting less frequently than usual if I don't know how frequently you post?
The good news for you is that you have made my suspect list now, for coming in in the middle of both of the wagons that have been pushed to L-2 - you're the one common element between them, and if it's scum pushing for claims (which it definitely looks like to me), that's the perfect place to stick yourself.
Well, you haven't addressed why your first post appears to be some sort of flavor-gaming and avoids RVS entirely.
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The only town game of yours I've been in was days 1&3 of Industry. And I think you'll agree that Industry is something of an outlier. Oh, and I was scum both of those days, so I didn't even have to go through the effort of reading you.
But so far, you've read a lot like you did in Deus Ex, where despite not being town, your interests laid with the town for the entire duration of the game you were alive for. And if you were a player I hadn't played with posting as you're posting, I'd probably put you in the town pile. But I've been burned by you twice now, so you're definitely not getting off that easily. Remember my paranoia about you early D1 in Deus Ex? It's only gotten worse.
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It's a shame I don't haves two votes.
And yet you still did neither.
Hint: Generic is on my wagon. [/quote]
And the only way that's scummy is through Generic's meta?
Hard to respond until we see these solid arguments on Generic. In fact I'm gonna to hold off any more responses because I really want to see what you have as case against Generic.
Hey, BE I asked you a question in 100.
Conflicted on the Wildfire wagon. Not entirely happy with his play, but I'm less happy about how the wagon got to L-2 fairly easily.
^ not good posting.