Eh, I sorta just want the game to be over. Let's see how this goes.
Unvote, Vote Yes
*crosses fingers*
Silver, am I drinking too much wine in thinking this is a scum gambit to try and get himself on quest 5?
It could be?
What about Osi? Do you think he's playing dumb?
Osi and Cantrip can't both be town unless Brinatoo thinks Osi is Oberon for some reason... which would mean Proph was known to his teammates?
Also AG would be scum then. Which... isn't impossible if you and Osi are both town, he'd want to put down a passing quest so you guys propose him...
Eh, I sorta just want the game to be over. Let's see how this goes.
Unvote, Vote Yes
*crosses fingers*
Silver, am I drinking too much wine in thinking this is a scum gambit to try and get himself on quest 5?
It could be?
What about Osi? Do you think he's playing dumb?
Osi and Cantrip can't both be town unless Brinatoo thinks Osi is Oberon for some reason... which would mean Proph was known to his teammates?
Also AG would be scum then. Which... isn't impossible if you and Osi are both town, he'd want to put down a passing quest so you guys propose him...
Maybe I've had too much wine.
Assuming the game goes to quest 5, Osie will self resolve by either proposing the same quest as 4, or claiming scum, so I'm not worried there.
Regardless, if Osie and Cantrip are town, that means that we can't have 5 town on the quest and have a town AG, but if AG isn't town, then the only reason to propose a passing quest would be to get on it, which wouldn't work if Osie was town anyway.
There's a chance scum!AG picks a passing quest with town!Osi, if he thinks Rhand is Oberon and failed Q3, but yeah. I guess more likely is they're scum together, but then he's playing dumb here. So this might actually pass even if AG is scum?
Though my point about all three of them being not town together was that there's only two town in the group [Osi/Cantrip/AG/Terry/Brinatoo] because there's one scum in [you/D_V] and one scum in [Rhand/Mindreaver/Proph]. Means the last three are in there somewhere. Then, since Brinatoo proposed Q3+Osi either Brinatoo is town and thought Osi was town or Brinatoo is scum with Osi. Either way Osi is scum if AG OR Cantrip is town, unless Brin thought Osi was Oberon and Proph was known to his teammates.
(It's still possible, of course, that Terry is scum with Rhand or Mindreaver and we're torturing ourselves when we've already lost, so...)
There's a chance scum!AG picks a passing quest with town!Osi, if he thinks Rhand is Oberon and failed Q3, but yeah. I guess more likely is they're scum together, but then he's playing dumb here. So this might actually pass even if AG is scum?
Though my point about all three of them being not town together was that there's only two town in the group [Osi/Cantrip/AG/Terry/Brinatoo] because there's one scum in [you/D_V] and one scum in [Rhand/Mindreaver/Proph]. Means the last three are in there somewhere. Then, since Brinatoo proposed Q3+Osi either Brinatoo is town and thought Osi was town or Brinatoo is scum with Osi. Either way Osi is scum if AG OR Cantrip is town, unless Brin thought Osi was Oberon and Proph was known to his teammates.
(It's still possible, of course, that Terry is scum with Rhand or Mindreaver and we're torturing ourselves when we've already lost, so...)
If scum AG picks a passing quest in a town Osie world, then town Osie just proposes the same quest and lol AG.
The fact that no one is gloating in thread makes me hopeful, but you're right about Terry + Rhand/Mind.
Well, I think Oberon was on Q3. So they might not know what's about to happen either.
Wouldn't that make Cantrip town though? Which would mean AG was scum, in which case AG probably could have proposed Q3 + Terry instead of removing proph and risking him being Obi...
Silver, am I drinking too much wine in thinking this is a scum gambit to try and get himself on quest 5?
Town!Shadow is incredibly surprising, but... hmm. Then D_V was scum unless you've been playing the long game.
Still doesn't solve the high likelihood of two scum on this quest. And I'm still relatively convinced that AG is scum, and that this isn't a passing quest.
Scum!AG can still happen with Town!Osi. Not sure why Shadow is convinced otherwise.
Silver, am I drinking too much wine in thinking this is a scum gambit to try and get himself on quest 5?
Town!Shadow is incredibly surprising, but... hmm. Then D_V was scum unless you've been playing the long game.
Still doesn't solve the high likelihood of two scum on this quest. And I'm still relatively convinced that AG is scum, and that this isn't a passing quest.
Scum!AG can still happen with Town!Osi. Not sure why Shadow is convinced otherwise.
All my posts at this point assume that we pass this quest, cause if we don't then it's irrelevant. So yes, a world where you're town and AG is scum is possible, but in that world, the game is already over.
Phoneposting while the cable guy is here so I can't look back just now, but.
@shadow:
Unless the town players in that block are Cantrip/AG. That means Terry is scum but unless he's scum with Rhand/Mindreaver we're still good. Also Osi is scum, but.
@Osi:
It's almost impossible for you to be town here, I think. You can't be town with AG, Cantrip, or Terry because if you're town, Brinatoo has to be town. Unless Brinatoo is Oberon, I guess, and took a stab at making a failing Q3+1.
It's nothing personal. I think you've played a good game, especially after Q2, regardless of your alignment. You just. Don't fit
Then lets cut the crap then. Osi = town (as far as I know). This proposal fails. Scum victory. I wanted to say something last night, but technically it's not a fail until Terry sends his PM. But it can't end any other way.
How are you guys already throwing in the towel? Unless there were two scum on the previous quest that failed, which is unlikely, or shadow is scum which is equally unlikely, we get Quest 5 and Osi picks it. Since he is not on the quest, if any quest but this quest repeated is proposed, it will get vetoed.
Yeah, sorry, wasn't intending to troll, but wanted to play it safe in case I had missed something vital. And then Iso posted with "play on" and I was hesitant again.
I also figured as long as Silver, Shadow, and Osie were figuring things out, they were probably still having some type of fun. Figured if someone posted anything like Silver's 1412, I'd let the cat out of the bag.
If I had to shoot (I'm the assassin btw), I'd shoot Osi. But, AG was a second choice. Especially with how long he took to nominate a team, when he was backed so far into a corner.
Iso's responding in the late evening Eastern time.
No idea if votes have been sent to him yet or not. But if Shadow's right, then I guess we just lose. Though maybe Shadow is even more right and AG is town, and then there's a chance... It all depends on whether there's 1 or 2 scum in Rhand, Terry, Mindreaver.
If you're right, and it's impossible for both me and AG to be town, then we've lost unless AG messed up somehow.
AG proposed a losing quest (you/Terry), and Rhand, Shadow, and Silver all voted for it (in qulo). Plus Brin's bizarre 1378 post...he'd be my choice for the assassin kill.
@Mind: Oh, you said Osie. There was something that made me think he wasn't...But I did have 589 and 653 down as early posts that he could be Merlin.
I'll see if I can find what made me think not Osie.
Of course, Osie is much more likely behaviorally, what with him acting questionable for most of D1 followed by a turnaround to smart posting the rest of the game.
AG proposed a losing quest (you/Terry), and Rhand, Shadow, and Silver all voted for it (in qulo). Plus Brin's bizarre 1378 post...he'd be my choice for the assassin kill.
Well.....if nothing else, what did Osie mean in 1399 by "If both [Shadow] and Terry were town, this game was even sillier than it looked" if he's Merlin? Still camouflaging even though he knows the quest is going to fail?
There was something else, though...
Oh, and for a while I was convinced that Silver was Oberon.
Silver, you played REALLY well this game (even more so if you're Oberon). You made me think twice about anything I posted.
Shadow and Rhand also did a good job.
Mind, I think you did the best on the scum team. You did a lot of townposting (as evidenced by your inclusion on quest after quest after quest...)
Oh, and Vaimes you did a spectacular job, too, except that once you were outed as Percival, you withdrew. I can understand why you did so, but I think you still could have contributed in ways that didn't give anything away. I half expected you to create voting orders for the last few quest proposals. I think that was a good suggestion on Rhand's part, and you picking up that ball and running with it would have given you control over the gamestate while not tipping your hand too much.
I thought Osie was merlin from the second he was like "if anyone fails this, it's mindreaver". Which I thought was crazy bold. To my knowledge at that point, I had some people with suspicions, but nobody was going to say "Oh definitely Mind". I knew we didn't have any other team on there, so it was either inside knowledge, or brilliant reads.
AG taking so long with this quest, after expressing that he wanted shadow as the +1, gave me pause. If he'd gone that route, I think we could have voted it down. But the support for other safe options (Proph, Brin) was zero. If he was Merlin, that was a gambit to hope that we didn't pass the quest, and that we'd be forced to do town!shadow's.
Then you had cantrip voting no, which was brilliant. I think that confused the hell out of Vaimes.
I thought for the longest time that Silver might be oberon. But realized there was no reason for him to pass Q1, Q2, and Q3; unless he was playing Oberon for the final quest. And his reaction when I mentioned why would oberon fail Q3, was too genuine.
So the team we know, is D_V/Cantrip/Me/Terry. D_V being Mordred. I definitely didn't want him on Q1. and his Percy claim I was originally pissed at, but it took Vaimes right out of play (I'm really sad about that BTW, I think there were lines of play for you, but you're right that it was going to be tricky).
So the team we know, is D_V/Cantrip/Me/Terry. D_V being Mordred. I definitely didn't want him on Q1. and his Percy claim I was originally pissed at, but it took Vaimes right out of play (I'm really sad about that BTW, I think there were lines of play for you, but you're right that it was going to be tricky).
Yeah we can talk about this but there was a really big reason why I did this.
D_V was Mordred, I guess? Otherwise Vaimes wouldn't have counterclaimed him, I hope.
Mindreaver finally rolled scum lol.
Brinatoo or AG is Oberon and the other is town.
Proph was town.
Postgame thoughts:
Ugh. We kind of shot ourselves in the foot, to be honest. Especially me, I made my not-merliness too obvious.
I kind of wish we had longer voting deadlines and shorter proposal ones, though I'm not entirely sure that's actually any better.
I think twelve players is too many for this format.
The not being able to propose yourself and vote against your own quest is kind of terrible.
I wish we didn't have hammers for proposals. Just have, like, whichever has more votes at deadline happens or something.
Aw, carp, it was Osie. Well-played, Osie. It was 1334 and 1335 that had me thrown. I'm guessing if the proposal had come to you, you wouldn't have proposed Q3+Me, like you said you would've.
Yes, I was TORQUED at DV claiming Percy. Like...Terry or Mind doing that? Super. But not Mordred. But somehow--incredibly--he pulled it off and managed to get townread for it after a bit.
By the way, I voted no on the first Q2 proposal because that's what town!Cantrip would do, not because I was concerned about which scum would fail the quest. If that proposal had passed, I would have voted yes on it and if DV voted yes, too, we could have ridden it to Q3 and caused plenty of confusion.
I was a little frustrated that you failed Q3, though, Mind (that was you, wasn't it?). Again, I think you should have passed that one and we could have had a blast failing Q4 and Q5. But, again, it worked out.
Sorry that I got greedy with Q4. I voted yes on one that I knew town!Cantrip would vote no on, and I knew it was likely to fail. Violated one of my rules and got greedy, though.
Ahhh to many posts flying around here to keep track of. Well played to Osie then didn't have him read as Merlin at all.
So here was my logic on the Percy claim thing.
Merlin has thinks I'm town, why would I out myself as scum doing this claim I wouldn't. What a smart merlin would think I was doing was two things. A giving the counter claim to the real Town percy. And B making it look like I was merlin by putting this really weird cloud over my head.
In essence it makes me town read by not only merlin but also Percy.
That being said I can't spell it out in the game because then it would be pointless, I need Merlin and Percy to be able to think that was what I was doing.
Well, I'm pleased that I would have hit you. I thought you did a lot of really good obfuscation throughout. It was just that whole "Mind was the 1 fail" that I couldn't get out of my head. But at some point you had to challenge me, because I wasn't going anywhere and I was pushing out all the safe options as dangerous. In all, well done.
I felt like the lurking was what really made this impossible for town (at least for the last quest). Having such a slim margin to begin with, wasn't helped when Brin could be sidelined completely by a "I just don't trust him, he hasn't posted much". I was concerned that somebody would see how opportunistic I was regarding Rhand and Proph. I thought for sure I could paint Rhand as the bad guy, and then Proph just disappeared. Although on the plus side, he might shake that "scum proph stops posting" meta read now.
I am actually sorry I bussed the ***** out of the whole team. I think I made things a lot harder for Terry early on.
Rhand, I duplicated that whole argument from Big Red Button You read me very well in fact. Silver, you scared me the whole game, but I think I hid in a blindspot there. It's okay, I'll never be scum again
How are you guys already throwing in the towel? Unless there were two scum on the previous quest that failed, which is unlikely, or shadow is scum which is equally unlikely, we get Quest 5 and Osi picks it. Since he is not on the quest, if any quest but this quest repeated is proposed, it will get vetoed.
First off, thanks for hosting, Iso. Avalon's not something I'm going to want to do again too soon, but it was an enjoyable experience. And I would like to play again, somewhere down the road, because even after reading the rules and asking some questions, I still didn't completely get it. And when I rolled Morgana, it took me a while to realize that I had to be VERY careful about who I towncleared. Pretty sure Vaimes caught me very early on, at which point I had to devote my time to damage control with multiple layers of wifom.
I also apologize, as I completely lost steam. I'm pretty sure this is due to the lack of deaths. When I'm town, I can count on a lynch to provide one more tidbit of information (if the lynchee is town) or a whole world of interactions to review (if they're scum). When I'm scum, I can count on the NK to resolve a problem and/or sow confusion. And if I'm scum and get caught, I wreak havoc as long as I can and then get lynched to end my misery. Here...once I started being suspected, I just had to endure. I'm sure that it was 10 times as bad for Vaimes.
I feel like the setup was a little scum-favorable. Not sure what to do to fix that, but I feel pretty confident that Mind could have convinced the rest of us to shoot Osie if we had lost the quests (and I checked with Iso, we would have had time to discuss first).
I think not being able to nominate yourself was a good game decision, as it forced more interesting choices (rather than every quest proposal automatically including the proposer), but I agree that it would have been good for proposers to be able to vote against their own proposals.
Well shoot, I don't like stopping before it's official. I guess it's too late.
My first official act of Post-Game is to apologize to DV. I'm sorry for the hard bus, but the course of the game went pretty much as I planned.
No it was excellent. You got town read at the end of the game as well for it.
I really felt like busing was the correct play for the scum this game. We all basically picked like 2 of our own team mates bussed the hell out of them and then kept universal town reads on the other team mates.
What about Osi? Do you think he's playing dumb?
Osi and Cantrip can't both be town unless Brinatoo thinks Osi is Oberon for some reason... which would mean Proph was known to his teammates?
Also AG would be scum then. Which... isn't impossible if you and Osi are both town, he'd want to put down a passing quest so you guys propose him...
Maybe I've had too much wine.
Regardless, if Osie and Cantrip are town, that means that we can't have 5 town on the quest and have a town AG, but if AG isn't town, then the only reason to propose a passing quest would be to get on it, which wouldn't work if Osie was town anyway.
Though my point about all three of them being not town together was that there's only two town in the group [Osi/Cantrip/AG/Terry/Brinatoo] because there's one scum in [you/D_V] and one scum in [Rhand/Mindreaver/Proph]. Means the last three are in there somewhere. Then, since Brinatoo proposed Q3+Osi either Brinatoo is town and thought Osi was town or Brinatoo is scum with Osi. Either way Osi is scum if AG OR Cantrip is town, unless Brin thought Osi was Oberon and Proph was known to his teammates.
(It's still possible, of course, that Terry is scum with Rhand or Mindreaver and we're torturing ourselves when we've already lost, so...)
The fact that no one is gloating in thread makes me hopeful, but you're right about Terry + Rhand/Mind.
You're telling me. This post only comes from town!Shadow.
Town!Shadow is incredibly surprising, but... hmm. Then D_V was scum unless you've been playing the long game.
Still doesn't solve the high likelihood of two scum on this quest. And I'm still relatively convinced that AG is scum, and that this isn't a passing quest.
Scum!AG can still happen with Town!Osi. Not sure why Shadow is convinced otherwise.
^ This, then.
@shadow:
Unless the town players in that block are Cantrip/AG. That means Terry is scum but unless he's scum with Rhand/Mindreaver we're still good. Also Osi is scum, but.
@Osi:
It's almost impossible for you to be town here, I think. You can't be town with AG, Cantrip, or Terry because if you're town, Brinatoo has to be town. Unless Brinatoo is Oberon, I guess, and took a stab at making a failing Q3+1.
It's nothing personal. I think you've played a good game, especially after Q2, regardless of your alignment. You just. Don't fit
AG = Oberon?
Brin = Merlin?
No idea if votes have been sent to him yet or not. But if Shadow's right, then I guess we just lose. Though maybe Shadow is even more right and AG is town, and then there's a chance... It all depends on whether there's 1 or 2 scum in Rhand, Terry, Mindreaver.
If you're right, and it's impossible for both me and AG to be town, then we've lost unless AG messed up somehow.
I'll see if I can find what made me think not Osie.
Of course, Osie is much more likely behaviorally, what with him acting questionable for most of D1 followed by a turnaround to smart posting the rest of the game.
There was something else, though...
Oh, and for a while I was convinced that Silver was Oberon.
Silver, you played REALLY well this game (even more so if you're Oberon). You made me think twice about anything I posted.
Shadow and Rhand also did a good job.
Mind, I think you did the best on the scum team. You did a lot of townposting (as evidenced by your inclusion on quest after quest after quest...)
Mindreaver obviously.
Who is the second on the quest though, Terry?
I thought Osie was merlin from the second he was like "if anyone fails this, it's mindreaver". Which I thought was crazy bold. To my knowledge at that point, I had some people with suspicions, but nobody was going to say "Oh definitely Mind". I knew we didn't have any other team on there, so it was either inside knowledge, or brilliant reads.
AG taking so long with this quest, after expressing that he wanted shadow as the +1, gave me pause. If he'd gone that route, I think we could have voted it down. But the support for other safe options (Proph, Brin) was zero. If he was Merlin, that was a gambit to hope that we didn't pass the quest, and that we'd be forced to do town!shadow's.
Then you had cantrip voting no, which was brilliant. I think that confused the hell out of Vaimes.
I thought for the longest time that Silver might be oberon. But realized there was no reason for him to pass Q1, Q2, and Q3; unless he was playing Oberon for the final quest. And his reaction when I mentioned why would oberon fail Q3, was too genuine.
Isn't that the point of the role?
Also, I want to give props to Cantrip, Shadow, and Mindreaver for their posts this game.
Maybe that was a little too obvious.
Oh, I guess AG or Brinatoo is Oberon, then everything fits.
Yeah we can talk about this but there was a really big reason why I did this.
Also, I'm like 90% certain the Proph spot.
Mindreaver finally rolled scum lol.
Brinatoo or AG is Oberon and the other is town.
Proph was town.
Postgame thoughts:
Ugh. We kind of shot ourselves in the foot, to be honest. Especially me, I made my not-merliness too obvious.
I kind of wish we had longer voting deadlines and shorter proposal ones, though I'm not entirely sure that's actually any better.
I think twelve players is too many for this format.
The not being able to propose yourself and vote against your own quest is kind of terrible.
I wish we didn't have hammers for proposals. Just have, like, whichever has more votes at deadline happens or something.
Anyway. Thanks for hosting Iso!
Hm?
Yes, I was TORQUED at DV claiming Percy. Like...Terry or Mind doing that? Super. But not Mordred. But somehow--incredibly--he pulled it off and managed to get townread for it after a bit.
By the way, I voted no on the first Q2 proposal because that's what town!Cantrip would do, not because I was concerned about which scum would fail the quest. If that proposal had passed, I would have voted yes on it and if DV voted yes, too, we could have ridden it to Q3 and caused plenty of confusion.
I was a little frustrated that you failed Q3, though, Mind (that was you, wasn't it?). Again, I think you should have passed that one and we could have had a blast failing Q4 and Q5. But, again, it worked out.
Sorry that I got greedy with Q4. I voted yes on one that I knew town!Cantrip would vote no on, and I knew it was likely to fail. Violated one of my rules and got greedy, though.
I'm a knight, for the record.
Maybe he accidentally submitted a pass and Mind can shoot you so we lose anyway.
Lol. Let's go for it?
So here was my logic on the Percy claim thing.
Merlin has thinks I'm town, why would I out myself as scum doing this claim I wouldn't. What a smart merlin would think I was doing was two things. A giving the counter claim to the real Town percy. And B making it look like I was merlin by putting this really weird cloud over my head.
In essence it makes me town read by not only merlin but also Percy.
That being said I can't spell it out in the game because then it would be pointless, I need Merlin and Percy to be able to think that was what I was doing.
I felt like the lurking was what really made this impossible for town (at least for the last quest). Having such a slim margin to begin with, wasn't helped when Brin could be sidelined completely by a "I just don't trust him, he hasn't posted much". I was concerned that somebody would see how opportunistic I was regarding Rhand and Proph. I thought for sure I could paint Rhand as the bad guy, and then Proph just disappeared. Although on the plus side, he might shake that "scum proph stops posting" meta read now.
I am actually sorry I bussed the ***** out of the whole team. I think I made things a lot harder for Terry early on.
Rhand, I duplicated that whole argument from Big Red Button You read me very well in fact. Silver, you scared me the whole game, but I think I hid in a blindspot there. It's okay, I'll never be scum again
My first official act of Post-Game is to apologize to DV. I'm sorry for the hard bus, but the course of the game went pretty much as I planned.
*Puts Mindreaver in his meta notes next to Tom and shadow.*
Terry, did you pass Q4?
First off, thanks for hosting, Iso. Avalon's not something I'm going to want to do again too soon, but it was an enjoyable experience. And I would like to play again, somewhere down the road, because even after reading the rules and asking some questions, I still didn't completely get it. And when I rolled Morgana, it took me a while to realize that I had to be VERY careful about who I towncleared. Pretty sure Vaimes caught me very early on, at which point I had to devote my time to damage control with multiple layers of wifom.
I also apologize, as I completely lost steam. I'm pretty sure this is due to the lack of deaths. When I'm town, I can count on a lynch to provide one more tidbit of information (if the lynchee is town) or a whole world of interactions to review (if they're scum). When I'm scum, I can count on the NK to resolve a problem and/or sow confusion. And if I'm scum and get caught, I wreak havoc as long as I can and then get lynched to end my misery. Here...once I started being suspected, I just had to endure. I'm sure that it was 10 times as bad for Vaimes.
I feel like the setup was a little scum-favorable. Not sure what to do to fix that, but I feel pretty confident that Mind could have convinced the rest of us to shoot Osie if we had lost the quests (and I checked with Iso, we would have had time to discuss first).
I think not being able to nominate yourself was a good game decision, as it forced more interesting choices (rather than every quest proposal automatically including the proposer), but I agree that it would have been good for proposers to be able to vote against their own proposals.
@Iso: What was the reasoning behind that choice?
No it was excellent. You got town read at the end of the game as well for it.
I really felt like busing was the correct play for the scum this game. We all basically picked like 2 of our own team mates bussed the hell out of them and then kept universal town reads on the other team mates.