Word of advice for the future: a replacement is not alignment-indicative, so switching your vote on someone just cuz of an announcement that he was replaced doesn't make much sense.
@Mograppler: Oh, nevermind, you were fixing your previous vote on Folza cuz you didn't have the right syntax for the vote-counter. Nevermind, my bad.
@DV: Actually, yours is the scum slot, but nice deflection! Welcome to a game that was 75% Mafia newbies, but now seems to be about 50%. (Though I'm new to play-by-post Mafia, I'm quite familiar with IRL.) Unfortunately, it's also been about 50% lurkers. Hopefully you two can breathe some life into this.
@DV & @Rhand: Gimme your reads on Golli***, and lemme know how you guys, with your greater PBP-Mafia experience, would generally go about fixing a game full of inactives. Inactivity isn't exactly a problem with which I ever had to deal in IRL games.
@Mograppler: Oh, nevermind, you were fixing your previous vote on Folza cuz you didn't have the right syntax for the vote-counter. Nevermind, my bad.
@DV: Actually, yours is the scum slot, but nice deflection! Welcome to a game that was 75% Mafia newbies, but now seems to be about 50%. (Though I'm new to play-by-post Mafia, I'm quite familiar with IRL.) Unfortunately, it's also been about 50% lurkers. Hopefully you two can breathe some life into this.
@DV & @Rhand: Gimme your reads on Golli***, and lemme know how you guys, with your greater PBP-Mafia experience, would generally go about fixing a game full of inactives. Inactivity isn't exactly a problem with which I ever had to deal in IRL games.
I thought it was too when I was reading the game before I got my PM, but nope I'm just town.
Honestly, I agree with the arguments set against me. My activity levels have been extremely low, and honestly it might be that I am not focusing enough on the game. Obviously I do not want to spoil the game for everyone, but it may probably just be better that a replacement be found; not because all evidence points towards scuminess or that a vote train is incoming that I am trying to step away from. Perhaps it may have been better for me to sign up with a mentor for first-time forum Mafia. There is honestly though, no valid excuse other than that I haven't been trying hard enough.
Trying to stay neutral, and then conceding when votes come in because of scumminess he agrees with. That could be new player behavior, but I don't really see it. Unvote. Vote: Folza
I would consider voting for D_V, but since he's new I want to see what he does.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When I'm sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story"
-Barney Stinson
Vote: Wheat_Grinder for putting is in the position of trying to lynch other people.
Scum tell voting outside of the game. Specifically in RVS.
Folza seems town.
nagobcnik seems town.
King Torg seems scummy to me. A) Defending Mograpplers no lynch and B) Pushing against lurkers while Mograppler made a lot of posts on no lynch and things such as voting Wheat which is essentially lurking in plain sight.
I need to read through BlueEclipse hes posting a lot of information dumps which is handy once I parse through them.
Folza really hasn't said anything at all of merit, if this was an experienced player I'd say town, but a new player I'd say neutral so I'll revise that seems town read. I really don't see anything that Folza has done that is scummy.
Folza really hasn't said anything at all of merit, if this was an experienced player I'd say town, but a new player I'd say neutral so I'll revise that seems town read. I really don't see anything that Folza has done that is scummy.
I...what?
How on earth does "not saying anything at all of merit" strike you as Townie if it's from an experienced player?
@AudioTsunami: Since you've shown that you are present, what are your thoughts on things at the moment? (Just a general idea will suffice, I'm not looking for a detailed analysis of the entire thread from you yet.)
I'm pretty positive EL is scum. I want more analysis from you and less coaching and I don't understand your post about nago being unwilling to pressure a slot that is being replaced at the top of 4. I like Nago. Fugging has still only talked about himself.
"I want more analysis," he says, then votes with absolutely no analysis or explanation against the person who's being Town-read by someone he's Town-reading.
@Folza: So you recognize that you aren't trying at all, yet making no effort to actually correct that and contribute... well, anything, to the discussion at hand. Even when the discussion is your own lynching. It's an interesting play - my gut instinct is to read it as a town thing to do, but then I start WIFOMing myself in circles as I look at it. I think for the time being, I'll need to let my vote on you stand as is, and see what comes about now that we've got some more activity going on in here.
@fuggingolli***: We weren't saying that the people who post less are scum. We are saying that the people who are clearly lurking - being active on the forums and either posting minimally in the topic, posting not at all, or posting infrequently and with no relevant content need to be looked at as possible scum, simply because lurking in that way does not help the town at all (particularly if the person is posting enough to avoid prods/replacement but isn't actually contributing anything). And yes, everyone insists they're town - there is no reason for anyone to claim otherwise. But at this point, you've got more than a week's worth of posts from people, so to say you can't get a read on anyone at all still strikes me as somewhat scummy. You might not have the most solid reads yet, but surely you've got to have something.
@D_V: You're saying that Folza saying little of merit reads as either town or neutral - how are you coming to that conclusion?
@AudioTsunami: My comment about nago being unwilling to put pressure on Sunray was asking for clarification of why that would be, and where he felt we should be directing our attention towards. I'm placing nago as pretty firmly town at the moment, so when he makes a comment like he did stating he disagreed with putting pressure on Sunray, I'm willing to see what more he has to say on the matter. And yes, olli*** still has only talked about himself. Could you elaborate on why you're scum-reading Lurker, though?
Say hes scum, know he needs to post but doesn't know how to go about it because hes new and busy.
Say hes town, literally the same thing.
Either alignment he just doesn't know what to do. That's fine. Add that with pressure from the town now even more on the back foot. The offering to replace I actually read as pretty towny because hes trying to leave to do whats best because hes not contributing. I'm trying to not read into that too hard though.
Offering to replace is completely NAI. If he's trying to do what's best for his faction in that regard, that's the proper move regardless of the faction. Being mislynched doesn't help his scum buddies either.
This game has been full of inactive players from the start, such as you. It'd be hilariously easy for Mafia to hide among them and get a free win.
So I cannot for the life of me figure out how you turn around and scum-read the person who's been trying his damnedest all game to ensure that the game doesn't devolve into a lurk-fest, even if it's required occasionally silly posts like #56 just to keep things going.
@AudioTsunami: #56 seems just to be a joking response to Mograppler's comment in #55 - seriously, I have no idea how you get a scumtell from that. #61 has some definite WIFOM, but it seems more like he was trying to give a general thought process there. It is worth keeping in mind for future reads, but he hasn't given me anything else that would particularly stand out as a scumtell, while others have been far more consistently scummy. And #105 was much the same as my own thoughts regarding Juls's posting (at the time I had my vote on Juls, in fact), though Lurker added another bit of humor at the end, which doesn't surprise me at all.
@D_V: The thing is, though, he doesn't have to do much to contribute - just give us some information on what he's seeing based on the posts so far. He has consistently refused to give us anything, though, and that he's just bringing up the idea of replacing out now, when pressure is being put on him... the timing is suspect in my eyes, enough so that I'm willing to keep my vote on him unless I get a compelling argument to do otherwise.
I am happy I didn't because I'm pretty sure i found scum and being on a team with him would've been awkward.
Oh and I think you are scum with him because of your "I need to read him" post.
vote: BluesEclipse
Case forthcoming when I'm on my computer.
@EL: Polli*** didn't leave an impression on me. I'll look into him.
I think Folza is town for the wording of his replacement post. Not because of the fact he offers to be replaced, but for how he feels he's not being a help to town.
Scrap that EL thing. I misread a post there. I still think he's likely town tho.
BluesEclipse:
He spends too much time being helpful, which triggered my alarm from the start.
The questions he does ask / statements he makes lack depth and won’t help him get a read on players.
For example:
“@Folza: Is that an actual no-lynch vote, or are you just withholding your vote for the moment?”
Folza just did a vote nobody, which is worth pressure, but what Blues is doing is not pressure: any answer to that question isn’t going to make Folza more or less likely to be scum.
“@Mograppler: Modvote, huh? It's a choice, though I don't think you'll get enough traction on that wagon for a lynch.”
The exact same problem as above: these are softballs and not real accusations / questions that will lead somewhere.
In an answer to Eternal, he says this: “ (And I honestly don't hold with the whole 'attempting to lynch mod is a scumtell' idea - though I'll be watching to see if he actually contributes anything, and how he votes moving forward.)”
Which means he doesn’t even care for the questions he made above.
The weird thing is that, while he doesn’t think it’s a scumtell, he does use it to vote Mograppler:
“That being said, the more I see of Mograppler, with as hard as he's been pushing the no-lynch angle, I find myself looking more closely at him. When he's had multiple people explaining the reason for D1 lynch, and still questions it (even his comments in #37 aren't supporting the lynch idea so much as trying to defend his position of no-lynch), it makes me wonder if he has an agenda there.”
If you look at Mograppler’s posts, he was simply asking people to explain him why no lynching isn’t a good idea. He wasn’t pushing it.
On the plus side, he does ask a few good questions now, wanting reads / more explained reads from Mograppler, Eternal and KingTorg, and later also fogging and Folza.
But there’s a few problems in that post (60):
To Bloodmoon he goes a bit too far to show his townieness:
“ (I don't know if the mentors are actually helping you with reads or anything, but if they are then I'd advise getting their input if you think you're missing something in that regard.)”
First off, mentors aren’t allowed to do that, but that’s beside the point.
What is really wrong with this, is that Blues feels he won’t convince Bloodmoon himself of his townieness and tries to get the mentor to do so.
And then to fugging he commits a major scumtell: he brings up the possibility of a neutral:
“You do realize that your post is effectively claiming yourself as a Neutral, right? ...Actually, I wonder if that's even possible. I wouldn't expect Neutral roles in a basic setup like this, but we can find out later on.”
And to Mograppler he shows he is pocketing him. He explains his vote but then thanks him for providing insight in his reads. To me that screams scum attacking town but not wanting the retaliation from that attack.
And then Mograppler had done something which would really be attack-worthy: he speculated on EL’s role, which is something you should never do in-thread. But instead of attacking him, Blues joins the speculation, which screams scum mindset: knowing what role EL has is what scum really wants.
@BluesEclipse, Re: 110: Where does the King Torg town lean come from?
He votes Folza later for ok reasons, but his latest post is him running in circles. It’s like he knows he should unvote but doesn’t want to because he needs the mislynch:
“So you recognize that you aren't trying at all, yet making no effort to actually correct that and contribute... well, anything, to the discussion at hand. Even when the discussion is your own lynching. It's an interesting play - my gut instinct is to read it as a town thing to do, but then I start WIFOMing myself in circles as I look at it. I think for the time being, I'll need to let my vote on you stand as is, and see what comes about now that we've got some more activity going on in here.”
@EL: games with lack of activity are hard to win as town. Active town tends to eat each other up while scum lurks with the rest of town, or 1 scum takes the leader role while the others lurk.
Generally, there should be 1-2 scum among the low posters, and if activity stays this low, we'll have to pressure the lurkers on future Days and POE them. I prefer not doing that Day 1 because lynching them doesn't give real info to work with.
(also sorry for quadruple posting. I'm in Europe, which makes that sort of unavoidable)
Re Folza: He feels guilty for not being active enough and for not having taken a mentor. I think he's just lost and resigned to his fate. Which I think makes him town. I think that a scum in that situation would at least feel the need to fight his lynch because the impact of getting lynched as scum is bigger for his team.
D_V: this one is my strongest read. I was already suspicious of Mystic Sunday, because of what we have mentioned previously. Then he comes in and tries to make a joke asking someone else what it's like to be mafia. That screams scum to me. His defense of folza is one possible read, but I don't think it is the likelier one. This makes me think stronger that folza is scum.
Folza: see above. I am intetested to see how his login activity will be, and if he posts.
AudioTsunami: I want to see more from him. In. It's activity and contribution. He had only given us a couple sentences thus far, and I don't think they have much value. His reasonings for Lurker are pretty thin and out there.
@rhand: you mentioned that EL assumed the number of mafia wrong, what is the normal number for a game of this size. Then you said never mind. What did you think he had said? I find your read on blues very eye opening. I'll have to reread the thread with that in mind and see how much he guided us down certain paths.
@Rhand: Some of your worries about Blues' questions and helpfulness being meant to prove his Townie-ness rather than to solve the gamestate are valid concerns; they're part of what I was starting to fear when I had some mental alarms about him potentially pocketing me. That said, outside of the questions and helpfulness, he does have reads, in fact being the only person thus far to post a list. You also say that DV is probably scum with Blues, but this Sunray-slot vote from Blues doesn't feel like they're buddied, given the context around it.
@nagobcnik: #147 + #157 in combination. It's okay, man, you can admit your feelings. There's no judgment here.
Yessss, finally some action Welcome, D_V and Rhand!
@AudioTsunami: Post #56 is humor and a null tell. Same goes for the ending of post #105, if that's what caught your eye. Post #61 is different, though. I have my own theory why EL wrote it, and it is, again, a WIFOM situation and a null tell.
@D_V: In post #176 you say you thought your slot was scum before subbing in. Why? You also claim Folza is neutral because he is inexperienced, but if he were experienced, it would be townie. I don't get that at all. Please explain.
@EternalLurker: In post #183, are you referring to me? Because I would like to see how you got the idea I have town-read you
@Rhand: Looking forward to see your case on Blues. Hope you manage to provide it soon. Regarding Folza, is there a particular part of his replacement post that make you feel he's town, or is it a general vibe?
It was just the part where you voted Mystic and then they said GG with a smiley. Seemed noob scum to me.
Yeah pretty sure Rhands scum will read Blue today see where I end up on that.
@Rhand: The questions I ask are sometimes intended to get an understanding of the logic and thought processes leading up to a person's conclusion, rather than the conclusion itself - knowing how the person tends to reach their decisions can be as useful as seeing what the decisions are, sometimes moreso.
Regarding my vote on Mograppler, I was not using the vote on Wheat as a scumtell, but the fact that he continued to (as I saw it) push the no-lynch angle by keeping his comments exclusively on the no-lynch idea even after it was stated by multiple people why it would be a bad idea, and actively not contributing anything, came off to me as scummy.
Regarding post #60, to Bloodmoon, the simple fact is that I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that I'm town. I could, but that's not going to do anything. I advised Bloodmoon to review the evidence and make his own decisions, and if he wasn't certain on anyone (not just me), to ask his mentor for advice. I was assuming they were there to bounce ideas off of get advice both on how to handle the player's own posting and how to read the other players. You know, helping people not familiar with Mafia understand how to play the game. If I'm wrong about that, I'm not 100% sure what mentors would actually be doing.
To olli***, in the same post, his comment suggested a Neutral role. I don't know how prevalent neutral roles are on MTGS games, or whether a basic game would have neutral roles - I'm not expecting neutral roles myself, but when I see a comment that could be read as an oblique Neutral claim, it does make me think a bit.
To Mograppler, in the same post, I thank him for answering a question I posed to him - this is simply being polite, and no different than nago thanking me for replying to his concerns multiple times (#75 and #77, for example). At the same time, I still am pushing Mog as scum, and had a vote on him at that time. I fail to see how this can be considered pocketing him when I was looking to get him lynched. For speculation on Lurker's role, my comments were intended mainly to point out that we can't speculate on his role just based on him driving discussion - it could indicate vanilla or power, town or mafia.
My weak town lean on Torg at that point was due mainly to a lack of actual scumtells there - my gut was saying he is likely town, and his posts at the time didn't seem to be contradicting it. Since then, though, he hasn't offered much more to the discussion - a brief explanation of his vote on olli***, a change to the vote on Folza with minimal justification for it, and a couple of comments in D_V's general direction. Lurking in plain sight, possibly? It's worth keeping a closer eye on him at this point to see what he brings forward.
And regarding Folza: He hasn't clearly stated intent to replace out (at least not publically) - I don't read his post as a 'hey, go ahead and replace me' so much as a 'well, maybe it would be better if I were replaced, but go ahead and lynch me if you want, it doesn't matter'. It could be a sympathy play by scum to get us to pull votes off before he's lynched, it could be a townie who thinks he's not going to get out of the situation he's in, or it could be a player who just doesn't care anymore. I don't really know which, but the only situation I see this being a good play for is if he's scum trying for a sympathy ploy. If he's town, I would've expected some information, maybe a claim? If he just doesn't care anymore, I'd have expected a clear statement that he wanted to replace out, rather than the wishy-washy post he gave us. This is why I've decided that the vote still stands for the time being - it's at this point a question of whether it's just horrible play or a scum play, and right now my gut is saying it's scum play.
In general, I'm trying to be helpful. It makes more sense, to me, to ensure that other players in the game know how to properly play whether they are town or mafia - it makes it so that the more experienced people can't just run over the less experienced players. No different in my mind than playing against someone in Magic who's new to the game, and pointing out better options when they misplay. I try to remain polite - it's my nature, always has been. And if you think my reads are bad, then by all means, feel free to point out the flaws for me. And I'd be interested in seeing your opinions of others as well. You've gone on at length with your analysis of me, and I encourage everyone else here to review my posting history and see if they feel I'm town or not. I'm curious to see what kind of analysis you'll have on others.
However, the fact that you opted to give such a detailed read on me, but only brief mentions on your other reads - calling out Folza as town based off of the wording of that last post alone, calling out nago and EL as town with no real indications, and you're quick call of D_V as scum - it is concerning, and comes off as scummy to me. Particularly calling out D_V as scum for indicating that he needs to read through my posts because there's quite a bit there (number of posts and size of the posts), when your own claims against me would suggest you want people to reread my posts if only to see the same things you do. What is the difference there - you clearly had to read through my posts to peg me as scum, so why would you call D_V out as scum for saying he has to do the same to form his own conclusions?
Whoa. There has been a lot of chatter in here. I remember saying earlier that I was worried about Blues being scum and pocketing me. I'm going to have to re read everything before I discuss that any further. That being said, glad to see that we had active people replace in. I'll try to catch up on everything later tonight. It will be late before I post again. Also, my kid has a doctor's appointment tomorrow morning so there won't be much chatter from be tomorrow.
56 is a joke, but 56 in combination with 61 changes the context of both posts. He initially and immediately blows it off with the joke then comes back 3 hours later to give a detailed and logically flawed statement on the possible alignments he could be. It's silly and awful. And his now the second time he's said something along the lines of "if I were x alignment, i'd do y and it'd be so easy to get a win if I did y". In conjunction with him being the "content police" several times at this point while his post have been more white noise then actual content is really just icing.
I'm not changing my vote for the rest of the day. EL is confscum in my mind.
Considering that I got some information from King, and I have a feeling for now I'm not getting much more:
Unvote
In regards to my re-read of BluesEclipse
After re-reading BluesEclipse (and reading old games to understand the concern) I can see why he looks scummy for being helpful. Could it be a potential pocket, yes. Honestly, I think he is town and he is just being helpful. A big reason for this conclusion is post 107. It feels more like frustrated town, and less scum. I just don't think scum Blues would get so heated over inactivity like that.
AutoTsunami I read back through EL's posts 56 and 61. Am I missing a link here? I'm not sure what you meant when you tied the two together. Just looking for some clarity on it.
The thing with Folza that is bothersome is if he is town, he should be fighting back teeth and nail to prevent a mislynch. I know that he discussed replacing out, but it seems like he gave up long before that. We had some posts from him before we began to add pressure to him. I'm not sure if he had accepted his fate and is town, or if he knows he cannot dig his way out as scum. But as I read back through all his posts I came back across post 78. I asked him for clarity in my 83. Instead of answering my question, we got 116, where he said he was going to be neutral. It feels like a cover, to attempt to avoid having to answer any further questions. The only reason why I am reserving my vote right now is because I'm not ready for us to end this day yet.
fuggingolli***, you last posted two days ago, and a lot has happened since then. Your presence, or lack thereof, has not gone unnoticed, and you have been on since your last post, yet you have stayed incredibly quiet. Hiding in the shadows will not get you anywhere. We need input from you. I find it hard to believe that you have not formed an opinion on anyone yet, and we are well beyond rvs at this point. It doesn't feel like you are contributing, but just lurking. So
I wouldn't bother, BM. Anyone who says on page frickin' 5 that his target is "confscum" and that he's "not changing [his] vote for the rest of the day" is either scum or just unsalvageably tunneled. He's nowhere near my top scum reads, so I'm guessing it's the latter. We'll just have to get enough votes on scum without his help. {:^#{{
AutoTsunami I read back through EL's posts 56 and 61. Am I missing a link here? I'm not sure what you meant when you tied the two together. Just looking for some clarity on it.
Both are responses to the same exact post. He first fired off a joke, then felt nervous/wasn't satisfied so he revisited it unsolicited to try to appear more town. The only reason to revisit something you blew off with a joke is to supersede any suspicion.
Now with 214, he refuses to address my point at all and simply writes me of as scum or tunneling, which is laziness if we're being generous.
Hey EL, can I get another flowchart of what town and scum would do in this situation, cause it was oh so helpful in 61.
Also it's silly how many people are voting a lurker on day 1. Y'all need to look at the people in plain sight
Why on earth would I bother addressing your point when you specifically stated that you're never changing your vote and I'm confscum? I have better things to do with my time.
Though your attempt to get us off the current wagons by claiming we're just lynching lurkers, even though we've given plenty of other reasons for our targets, makes me wonder which one of them you're trying to protect.
Re: Lurker - If he were a power role, I could see him sparking discussion specifically to try and get reads to narrow down possible targets for whatever he would be able to do.
EternalLurker I really think he's Town Vanilla. I think if he had a role he would be a lot quieter, he is throwing out lots of accusations trying to get people to talk which I think is a good thing. Tho he is also a loose cannon so my read could be way off. I tenitively trust him.
Regarding this speculation on my role...I'm not claiming anything, but since this is a newbie game I guess I'll offer some input on what -- from an outsider's perspective -- I would consider my actions to imply. Yes, it's true that a noisy person attracts attention, but the sort of attention varies depending on a few factors. Here's the basic breakdown.
1) I'm Town and my noisiness is scaring the Mafia. In this case, they'll possibly want to kill me, so it's true that an investigative Townie role wouldn't want to be in this position on day one, before having a chance to use investigative abilities.
2) I'm Town but my noisiness is all on the wrong targets, so the Mafia doesn't care. In this case, there's actually a chance that I'll get lynched for noisy misreads, in which case a Vanilla Townie wouldn't act like this cuz there's nothing he can role-claim to save himself from a mislynch.
3) I'm Mafia. Then I know I won't die at night, and, though I still have to worry about mislynches, the chance is a lil' lower cuz of the fact that my scum-buddy's not gonna be bussing me on day one.
So, if you're reading me as Town like you say, then it's option 1 or 2, in which case the most likely read on me would be as a non-investigative non-vanilla role who's not particularly worried about being night-killed.
Like, say, a Town Bulletproof.
just food for thought
Also I just want to dig into this post a little more for those who aren't understanding why this post is scummy.
Paraphrased this post read:
I haven't claimed a role(foreshadowing)but because I'm more experienced than most the people here I'll explain to you guys what you guys should think about MY posting.
1.I'm town and drawing attention to myself and the mafia is scared that I'm drawing attention to myself(why? that's silly). Mafia is gonna want to kill me, so a power role doesn't want to act like me(wifom - at best)
2. I'm completely full of ***** and the mafia isn't gonna kill me because I'm wrong about everything even though it's only page 2 and you guys are gonna mislynch me cause i'm town guys. guys. I'm town. But i'm not vanilla town. But remember in 1) i'm not a power role...woooo spoooky
3. i wouldn't be loud as scum cause I don't want me lynched. Guy remember 1 and 2, i'm totes town
MAYBE I REALLY WANT THE ATTENTION BECAUSE I'M AN INCREDIBLY NICHE TOWN ROLE! GUYS I'M BULLETPROOF
just food for thought nbd bros.
but really i just claimed bulletproof
~~~~~~
Do you know who else is bulletproof? Godfather.
56 is a joke, but 56 in combination with 61 changes the context of both posts.
When Bloodmoon asks for further clarification, you come back in 216 saying that because he followed up his joke with a serious response afterwards, he was nervous or thought we wouldn't be satisfied with his answer, and must be scum because of the following:
The only reason to revisit something you blew off with a joke is to supersede any suspicion.
Ignoring the WIFOMish content of the post (because I'm already aware that it's quite a bit of WIFOM, and have been keeping that in mind), could you explain why you feel that the only reason to revisit something that you made a joking comment on is to supersede suspicion? As opposed to, say, wanting to provide a serious answer to possible concerns or accusations? Lurker has a pretty evident sense of humor, so him making a joke response to something doesn't particularly surprise me - nor does him actually coming back and providing a more in-depth response later on. I'm not saying that the content of the response shouldn't throw up flags (and I can see your interpretation of 61 on its own as a scumtell), but I fail to see how 56 changes the context of 61 in any way, shape, or form.
As for him not providing a response to you in #214, you did state in #211 that you aren't changing your vote for the rest of the day, regardless of any further information that conflicts with your current read... I'm not sure why you're then surprised that he's not responding to you directly. You're tunneled in on him, for good or ill at this point. It doesn't mean he doesn't have to convince the rest of us, but honestly, I'm not convinced by your case, as it's pretty much entirely based on one interpretation of #61, which is flawed in itself. You say that he's subtly claiming Bulletproof because Godfather is Bulletproof... but Godfather is not, by default, Bulletproof - the default is that it shows up as town to Cops. Nothing more. I don't know if the Bulletproof variant is normally used on MTGS or not, as I haven't seen many games with a Godfather at all (particularly not in Basic or Normal games). You may be used to games where the Bulletproof Godfather is the norm, but the fact that you're automatically assuming that his post points to a variant of a role that doesn't seem to be common in the kind of game we're in is another mark against you. Not to mention, getting
1.I'm town and drawing attention to myself and the mafia is scared that I'm drawing attention to myself(why? that's silly). Mafia is gonna want to kill me, so a power role doesn't want to act like me
from Lurker's post #61 tells me you didn't even properly read the post, given the bolded section. And so that you can't misread this, I'm going to be as direct as possible in pointing out your error.
1) I'm Town and my noisiness is scaring the Mafia. In this case, they'll possibly want to kill me, so it's true that an investigative Townie role wouldn't want to be in this position on day one, before having a chance to use investigative abilities.
2) I'm Town but my noisiness is all on the wrong targets, so the Mafia doesn't care. In this case, there's actually a chance that I'll get lynched for noisy misreads, in which case a Vanilla Townie wouldn't act like this cuz there's nothing he can role-claim to save himself from a mislynch.
3) I'm Mafia. Then I know I won't die at night, and, though I still have to worry about mislynches, the chance is a lil' lower cuz of the fact that my scum-buddy's not gonna be bussing me on day one.
I went ahead and bolded the important section in the second suggestion he makes - that his noisiness is on the wrong targets. That is what separates point 2 from point 1, and what he forgot to specify (likely because it can be understood given the context of the post itself). In point 1, he's suggesting that the Mafia would be scared of him not because his noisiness draws attention to himself, but because he's got scum in his sights, and his noisiness is drawing attention to them. I'm not going to go into speculating what they would do here (unless you ask me directly), for that way lies the murky depths of WIFOM. In point 2, he's suggesting that if he is town, but is focusing on non-Mafia targets, that the Mafia would have no reason to worry much about him - if he's trying to get town lynched, he's helping do their job for them. Obviously, case three is if he is Mafia, which is an entirely different issue than how the Mafia would react if he were town (and what strategies would be appropriate for a town power role vs vanilla - again, not something I necessarily want to delve into too much due to the fact that it becomes layers upon layers of WIFOM.)
But you've already stated that you will not be swayed by any evidence, and that you intend to keep your vote on Lurker no matter what. With you having stated that, I'm not sure why it surprises you that Lurker would choose not to bother trying to convince you otherwise.
(Also, I believe the vote counter wasn't getting it because you didn't have a space after the colon in your original vote from #182.)
@EternalLurker: Much as I hate to say it given the general tone he's been using, Audio has a point - I went through and reread your posts, and there actually was very little of substance regarding your reads. You've mentioned that you do have scum or town reads on people, but rarely why.
Below is a brief overview of all of Lurker's posts to this point - bolded items are where there is actual analysis or explanation of reads involved, or a challenge to someone else's given analysis/reads. As a note, I'm not making any commentary here on what I agree/disagree with from any of these posts - this is simply a look at Lurker's posts alone.
#15: Joking claim of Kresh as an insta-win role, RVS vote on Mograppler.
#24: RVS vote change to Folza.
#27: Discussion with me on how the insta-win ability should be worded on a card.
#28: Comment that the vote counter does not require you to unvote before counting a new vote.
#31: Joking answer from the brief card mechanic discussion, link to explanation of how vote counter works, and comment that Mograppler looks scummy (with no actual explanation of why).
#36: Explanation to Mograppler of why a D1 No-Lynch is a bad idea. #39: Explanation of why he's reading Mograppler as scummy at this time.
#41: RVS vote on Sunray.
#43: Comment about Sunray making an OMGUS vote.
#46: "ez game ez lief"
#49: Townread on me (with no explanation as to why), scumread on Mog and Sunray (with no explanation as to why on Sunray), comments that it's still page 1 and too early to have thoughts on the rest of the field, commentary on Torg's vote on Sunray seeming scummy with no detail of why.
#50: Revote on Sunray due to concerns that the vote counter might attribute a quoted vote from me as his vote.
#54: Mention that olli*** has a page of info to work with, and request that someone else vote him so he(Lurker) doesn't have to unvote Sunray, with no explanation given for vote reason (or whether it's RVS or not).
#56: Loose cannon joke post.
#58: Comment that his posts are likeable.
#61: Deliciously WIFOMy post regarding how his posting could be read.
#63: Definition of RVS and OMGUS. #66: Further explanation of why Torg's vote on Sunray seems scummy, further elaboration on #61, explanation of how to quote/multiquote. #67: General elaboration on why an RVS vote on someone who's already got an RVS vote would be seen as a scumtell, further elaborating on Torg's vote
#70: Stated willingness to explain his posts, linked to what he was referencing for nago's benefit.
#89: Mention that we shouldn't focus everything on active players at the time.
#103: Explanation of how to subscribe, mention of Juls's lack of content (no explanation of why posting with lack of useful content could seem scummy).
#105: Further mention of Juls's lack of content (and no explanation of why it seems scummy).
#109: Mention that he should be considered town because people who were perceived as scum were on his wagon.
#114: Questioning Juls's comment about him joining a bandwagon.
#115: Explaining to olli*** that there's no need or purpose for roleplaying as our characters.
#117: Explaining to olli*** that proper voting syntax is necessary. #120: Mention that we need more activity, suggesting that we put pressure on Sunray, mention of Sunray's comment that he'll opt out of the discussions as a scumtell, mention of Juls as a null read and noob read. #122: Calling scumtell on Mystic based on his opting out as soon as attention was directed towards him as possible scum, linking relevant posts.
#123: Syntax error complaint.
#126: Explanation of flavor vs mechanics, call to others to join the wagon on Mystic, arguments about where it should stop to comfortably pressure someone without risk of quickhammer.
#128: Elaboration on why pressure wagon size is relevant in relation to quickhammer possibility and what quickhammer indicates.
#136: Comment towards me with no explanation whatsoever.
#138: Advising Wheat of error in vote count. #143: Post analysis of my post #135 and concern that I was pocketing he.
#146: Why he called nago Bacon, and indicating that the originally cited posts from Sunray were all we had from him for that wagon. #152: Explanation of why you felt Sunray ducking out of conversation was scumtell.
#153: Thanking nago for clarifying his name.
#154: Mention that he's willing to wagon on Folza, mentioning Folza as problematic (due to lurking).
#158: Vote on Folza.
#164: Mention that olli***'s posting has been about not having information but not trying to gain information.
#167: Mention that olli***'s posting pattern holds true for others as well, and that he holsd Folza and Sunray as higher scumreads.
#171: General note that replacement is not alignment indicative.
#173: Mentioned understanding of why Mog reentered his vote, mention of D_V replacing into suspected scum slot, asking D_V and Rhand for reads and advice regarding handling inactives in general.
#175: Joking response to D_V. #180: Questioning how D_V sees posting nothing of merit as a townread.
#183: Comments on Audio's vote on him, but no mention of town/scum read.
#184: Realizing that he no longer has a wagon. #187: Mention that offering to replace is not indicative of alignment, to dispute D_V's townread of Folza based on suggestion to replace. #189: Mention of lurkers and how Mafia could lurk their way to free win, challenging Audio's scumread on him.
#190: Request for clarification regarding Audio's claim that #56 is a scumtell. #202: Explanation of his concerns of possible scumtells from me, indication that he doesn't see possible scumbuddy setup with me and Sunray/D_V slot (plus link to vote for context), reference to why he claims nago was townreading you. #214: Mention of Audio's #211 as possible scumtell, mention that Audio isn't in his top scumreads. #217: Explanation of why he wouldn't see a need to respond to Audio after Audio's claim that he would not change vote from Lurker, suggestion that Audio's push to move votes away from current lurking players could be scumtell.
A total of 54 posts made, and only 13 actually include any explanation of your reads, analysis of people's posts, or challenging others for explanations of things they've posted (as opposed to challenging people to post in general). You've generally been avoiding things that I would see as direct scumtells, but at the same time, you haven't been offering much in the way of actual contribution when looking at your posts as a whole (though you've still made more posts with actual content than some people have made posts overall in this game - AudioTsunami has a total of 8 posts to this point, for example). Still, it's something I'll be watching for.
The maelstrom pulses.
You take a look at where you've come to so far
Votecount!
D_V - 1 (Mograppler)
EternalLurker - 1 (Folza)
Folza - 3 (nagobcnik, EternalLurker, BluesEclipse)
fuggingolli*** - 2 (King Torg, JulsSkogs)
King Torg - 1 (Bloodmoon0324)
nagobcnik - 1 (fuggingolli***)
Not Voting - 3 (Rhand, AudioTsunami, D_V)
@DV: Actually, yours is the scum slot, but nice deflection! Welcome to a game that was 75% Mafia newbies, but now seems to be about 50%. (Though I'm new to play-by-post Mafia, I'm quite familiar with IRL.) Unfortunately, it's also been about 50% lurkers. Hopefully you two can breathe some life into this.
@DV & @Rhand: Gimme your reads on Golli***, and lemme know how you guys, with your greater PBP-Mafia experience, would generally go about fixing a game full of inactives. Inactivity isn't exactly a problem with which I ever had to deal in IRL games.
I thought it was too when I was reading the game before I got my PM, but nope I'm just town.
Trying to stay neutral, and then conceding when votes come in because of scumminess he agrees with. That could be new player behavior, but I don't really see it.
Unvote. Vote: Folza
I would consider voting for D_V, but since he's new I want to see what he does.
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
Scum tell voting outside of the game. Specifically in RVS.
Folza seems town.
nagobcnik seems town.
King Torg seems scummy to me. A) Defending Mograpplers no lynch and B) Pushing against lurkers while Mograppler made a lot of posts on no lynch and things such as voting Wheat which is essentially lurking in plain sight.
I need to read through BlueEclipse hes posting a lot of information dumps which is handy once I parse through them.
I still think you're scum, but just from this post, I have a feeling I'm going to like you.
-Barney Stinson
"Hodor"
-Hodor
How on earth does "not saying anything at all of merit" strike you as Townie if it's from an experienced player?
Yeah i only read the first page when I posted, that's all I had, I'm now starting page 4
I'm pretty positive EL is scum. I want more analysis from you and less coaching and I don't understand your post about nago being unwilling to pressure a slot that is being replaced at the top of 4. I like Nago. Fugging has still only talked about himself.
top-tier bandwagon-hopping we got here
@fuggingolli***: We weren't saying that the people who post less are scum. We are saying that the people who are clearly lurking - being active on the forums and either posting minimally in the topic, posting not at all, or posting infrequently and with no relevant content need to be looked at as possible scum, simply because lurking in that way does not help the town at all (particularly if the person is posting enough to avoid prods/replacement but isn't actually contributing anything). And yes, everyone insists they're town - there is no reason for anyone to claim otherwise. But at this point, you've got more than a week's worth of posts from people, so to say you can't get a read on anyone at all still strikes me as somewhat scummy. You might not have the most solid reads yet, but surely you've got to have something.
@D_V: You're saying that Folza saying little of merit reads as either town or neutral - how are you coming to that conclusion?
@AudioTsunami: My comment about nago being unwilling to put pressure on Sunray was asking for clarification of why that would be, and where he felt we should be directing our attention towards. I'm placing nago as pretty firmly town at the moment, so when he makes a comment like he did stating he disagreed with putting pressure on Sunray, I'm willing to see what more he has to say on the matter. And yes, olli*** still has only talked about himself. Could you elaborate on why you're scum-reading Lurker, though?
Say hes scum, know he needs to post but doesn't know how to go about it because hes new and busy.
Say hes town, literally the same thing.
Either alignment he just doesn't know what to do. That's fine. Add that with pressure from the town now even more on the back foot. The offering to replace I actually read as pretty towny because hes trying to leave to do whats best because hes not contributing. I'm trying to not read into that too hard though.
56 61 105
This game has been full of inactive players from the start, such as you. It'd be hilariously easy for Mafia to hide among them and get a free win.
So I cannot for the life of me figure out how you turn around and scum-read the person who's been trying his damnedest all game to ensure that the game doesn't devolve into a lurk-fest, even if it's required occasionally silly posts like #56 just to keep things going.
@D_V: The thing is, though, he doesn't have to do much to contribute - just give us some information on what he's seeing based on the posts so far. He has consistently refused to give us anything, though, and that he's just bringing up the idea of replacing out now, when pressure is being put on him... the timing is suspect in my eyes, enough so that I'm willing to keep my vote on him unless I get a compelling argument to do otherwise.
I am happy I didn't because I'm pretty sure i found scum and being on a team with him would've been awkward.
Oh and I think you are scum with him because of your "I need to read him" post.
vote: BluesEclipse
Case forthcoming when I'm on my computer.
@EL: Polli*** didn't leave an impression on me. I'll look into him.
I think Folza is town for the wording of his replacement post. Not because of the fact he offers to be replaced, but for how he feels he's not being a help to town.
Everyone else I have no read on. I'll work on that.
BluesEclipse:
He spends too much time being helpful, which triggered my alarm from the start.
The questions he does ask / statements he makes lack depth and won’t help him get a read on players.
For example:
“@Folza: Is that an actual no-lynch vote, or are you just withholding your vote for the moment?”
Folza just did a vote nobody, which is worth pressure, but what Blues is doing is not pressure: any answer to that question isn’t going to make Folza more or less likely to be scum.
“@Mograppler: Modvote, huh? It's a choice, though I don't think you'll get enough traction on that wagon for a lynch.”
The exact same problem as above: these are softballs and not real accusations / questions that will lead somewhere.
In an answer to Eternal, he says this: “ (And I honestly don't hold with the whole 'attempting to lynch mod is a scumtell' idea - though I'll be watching to see if he actually contributes anything, and how he votes moving forward.)”
Which means he doesn’t even care for the questions he made above.
The weird thing is that, while he doesn’t think it’s a scumtell, he does use it to vote Mograppler:
“That being said, the more I see of Mograppler, with as hard as he's been pushing the no-lynch angle, I find myself looking more closely at him. When he's had multiple people explaining the reason for D1 lynch, and still questions it (even his comments in #37 aren't supporting the lynch idea so much as trying to defend his position of no-lynch), it makes me wonder if he has an agenda there.”
If you look at Mograppler’s posts, he was simply asking people to explain him why no lynching isn’t a good idea. He wasn’t pushing it.
On the plus side, he does ask a few good questions now, wanting reads / more explained reads from Mograppler, Eternal and KingTorg, and later also fogging and Folza.
But there’s a few problems in that post (60):
To Bloodmoon he goes a bit too far to show his townieness:
“ (I don't know if the mentors are actually helping you with reads or anything, but if they are then I'd advise getting their input if you think you're missing something in that regard.)”
First off, mentors aren’t allowed to do that, but that’s beside the point.
What is really wrong with this, is that Blues feels he won’t convince Bloodmoon himself of his townieness and tries to get the mentor to do so.
And then to fugging he commits a major scumtell: he brings up the possibility of a neutral:
“You do realize that your post is effectively claiming yourself as a Neutral, right? ...Actually, I wonder if that's even possible. I wouldn't expect Neutral roles in a basic setup like this, but we can find out later on.”
And to Mograppler he shows he is pocketing him. He explains his vote but then thanks him for providing insight in his reads. To me that screams scum attacking town but not wanting the retaliation from that attack.
And then Mograppler had done something which would really be attack-worthy: he speculated on EL’s role, which is something you should never do in-thread. But instead of attacking him, Blues joins the speculation, which screams scum mindset: knowing what role EL has is what scum really wants.
@BluesEclipse, Re: 110: Where does the King Torg town lean come from?
He votes Folza later for ok reasons, but his latest post is him running in circles. It’s like he knows he should unvote but doesn’t want to because he needs the mislynch:
“So you recognize that you aren't trying at all, yet making no effort to actually correct that and contribute... well, anything, to the discussion at hand. Even when the discussion is your own lynching. It's an interesting play - my gut instinct is to read it as a town thing to do, but then I start WIFOMing myself in circles as I look at it. I think for the time being, I'll need to let my vote on you stand as is, and see what comes about now that we've got some more activity going on in here.”
Generally, there should be 1-2 scum among the low posters, and if activity stays this low, we'll have to pressure the lurkers on future Days and POE them. I prefer not doing that Day 1 because lynching them doesn't give real info to work with.
(also sorry for quadruple posting. I'm in Europe, which makes that sort of unavoidable)
D_V: this one is my strongest read. I was already suspicious of Mystic Sunday, because of what we have mentioned previously. Then he comes in and tries to make a joke asking someone else what it's like to be mafia. That screams scum to me. His defense of folza is one possible read, but I don't think it is the likelier one. This makes me think stronger that folza is scum.
Folza: see above. I am intetested to see how his login activity will be, and if he posts.
AudioTsunami: I want to see more from him. In. It's activity and contribution. He had only given us a couple sentences thus far, and I don't think they have much value. His reasonings for Lurker are pretty thin and out there.
@rhand: you mentioned that EL assumed the number of mafia wrong, what is the normal number for a game of this size. Then you said never mind. What did you think he had said? I find your read on blues very eye opening. I'll have to reread the thread with that in mind and see how much he guided us down certain paths.
There should be 3 mafia.
@nagobcnik: #147 + #157 in combination. It's okay, man, you can admit your feelings. There's no judgment here.
His reads are not that good either, as I have explained.
Yeah pretty sure Rhands scum will read Blue today see where I end up on that.
Regarding my vote on Mograppler, I was not using the vote on Wheat as a scumtell, but the fact that he continued to (as I saw it) push the no-lynch angle by keeping his comments exclusively on the no-lynch idea even after it was stated by multiple people why it would be a bad idea, and actively not contributing anything, came off to me as scummy.
Regarding post #60, to Bloodmoon, the simple fact is that I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that I'm town. I could, but that's not going to do anything. I advised Bloodmoon to review the evidence and make his own decisions, and if he wasn't certain on anyone (not just me), to ask his mentor for advice. I was assuming they were there to bounce ideas off of get advice both on how to handle the player's own posting and how to read the other players. You know, helping people not familiar with Mafia understand how to play the game. If I'm wrong about that, I'm not 100% sure what mentors would actually be doing.
To olli***, in the same post, his comment suggested a Neutral role. I don't know how prevalent neutral roles are on MTGS games, or whether a basic game would have neutral roles - I'm not expecting neutral roles myself, but when I see a comment that could be read as an oblique Neutral claim, it does make me think a bit.
To Mograppler, in the same post, I thank him for answering a question I posed to him - this is simply being polite, and no different than nago thanking me for replying to his concerns multiple times (#75 and #77, for example). At the same time, I still am pushing Mog as scum, and had a vote on him at that time. I fail to see how this can be considered pocketing him when I was looking to get him lynched. For speculation on Lurker's role, my comments were intended mainly to point out that we can't speculate on his role just based on him driving discussion - it could indicate vanilla or power, town or mafia.
My weak town lean on Torg at that point was due mainly to a lack of actual scumtells there - my gut was saying he is likely town, and his posts at the time didn't seem to be contradicting it. Since then, though, he hasn't offered much more to the discussion - a brief explanation of his vote on olli***, a change to the vote on Folza with minimal justification for it, and a couple of comments in D_V's general direction. Lurking in plain sight, possibly? It's worth keeping a closer eye on him at this point to see what he brings forward.
And regarding Folza: He hasn't clearly stated intent to replace out (at least not publically) - I don't read his post as a 'hey, go ahead and replace me' so much as a 'well, maybe it would be better if I were replaced, but go ahead and lynch me if you want, it doesn't matter'. It could be a sympathy play by scum to get us to pull votes off before he's lynched, it could be a townie who thinks he's not going to get out of the situation he's in, or it could be a player who just doesn't care anymore. I don't really know which, but the only situation I see this being a good play for is if he's scum trying for a sympathy ploy. If he's town, I would've expected some information, maybe a claim? If he just doesn't care anymore, I'd have expected a clear statement that he wanted to replace out, rather than the wishy-washy post he gave us. This is why I've decided that the vote still stands for the time being - it's at this point a question of whether it's just horrible play or a scum play, and right now my gut is saying it's scum play.
In general, I'm trying to be helpful. It makes more sense, to me, to ensure that other players in the game know how to properly play whether they are town or mafia - it makes it so that the more experienced people can't just run over the less experienced players. No different in my mind than playing against someone in Magic who's new to the game, and pointing out better options when they misplay. I try to remain polite - it's my nature, always has been. And if you think my reads are bad, then by all means, feel free to point out the flaws for me. And I'd be interested in seeing your opinions of others as well. You've gone on at length with your analysis of me, and I encourage everyone else here to review my posting history and see if they feel I'm town or not. I'm curious to see what kind of analysis you'll have on others.
However, the fact that you opted to give such a detailed read on me, but only brief mentions on your other reads - calling out Folza as town based off of the wording of that last post alone, calling out nago and EL as town with no real indications, and you're quick call of D_V as scum - it is concerning, and comes off as scummy to me. Particularly calling out D_V as scum for indicating that he needs to read through my posts because there's quite a bit there (number of posts and size of the posts), when your own claims against me would suggest you want people to reread my posts if only to see the same things you do. What is the difference there - you clearly had to read through my posts to peg me as scum, so why would you call D_V out as scum for saying he has to do the same to form his own conclusions?
DC?
...What does this mean, exactly? I'm not certain whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.
BluesEclipse - 1 (Rhand)
EternalLurker - 1 (Folza)
Folza - 4 (nagobcnik, EternalLurker, BluesEclipse, Mograppler)
fuggingolli*** - 2 (King Torg, JulsSkogs)
King Torg - 1 (Bloodmoon0324)
nagobcnik - 1 (fuggingolli***)
Not Voting - 2 (AudioTsunami, D_V)
I'm not changing my vote for the rest of the day. EL is confscum in my mind.
I'm voting EternalLurker
Unvote
In regards to my re-read of BluesEclipse
After re-reading BluesEclipse (and reading old games to understand the concern) I can see why he looks scummy for being helpful. Could it be a potential pocket, yes. Honestly, I think he is town and he is just being helpful. A big reason for this conclusion is post 107. It feels more like frustrated town, and less scum. I just don't think scum Blues would get so heated over inactivity like that.
AutoTsunami I read back through EL's posts 56 and 61. Am I missing a link here? I'm not sure what you meant when you tied the two together. Just looking for some clarity on it.
The thing with Folza that is bothersome is if he is town, he should be fighting back teeth and nail to prevent a mislynch. I know that he discussed replacing out, but it seems like he gave up long before that. We had some posts from him before we began to add pressure to him. I'm not sure if he had accepted his fate and is town, or if he knows he cannot dig his way out as scum. But as I read back through all his posts I came back across post 78. I asked him for clarity in my 83. Instead of answering my question, we got 116, where he said he was going to be neutral. It feels like a cover, to attempt to avoid having to answer any further questions. The only reason why I am reserving my vote right now is because I'm not ready for us to end this day yet.
fuggingolli***, you last posted two days ago, and a lot has happened since then. Your presence, or lack thereof, has not gone unnoticed, and you have been on since your last post, yet you have stayed incredibly quiet. Hiding in the shadows will not get you anywhere. We need input from you. I find it hard to believe that you have not formed an opinion on anyone yet, and we are well beyond rvs at this point. It doesn't feel like you are contributing, but just lurking. So
vote fuggingolli***
Also curious as to what DC means.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
Both are responses to the same exact post. He first fired off a joke, then felt nervous/wasn't satisfied so he revisited it unsolicited to try to appear more town. The only reason to revisit something you blew off with a joke is to supersede any suspicion.
Now with 214, he refuses to address my point at all and simply writes me of as scum or tunneling, which is laziness if we're being generous.
Hey EL, can I get another flowchart of what town and scum would do in this situation, cause it was oh so helpful in 61.
Also it's silly how many people are voting a lurker on day 1. Y'all need to look at the people in plain sight
Though your attempt to get us off the current wagons by claiming we're just lynching lurkers, even though we've given plenty of other reasons for our targets, makes me wonder which one of them you're trying to protect.
Also I just want to dig into this post a little more for those who aren't understanding why this post is scummy.
Paraphrased this post read:
I haven't claimed a role(foreshadowing)but because I'm more experienced than most the people here I'll explain to you guys what you guys should think about MY posting.
1.I'm town and drawing attention to myself and the mafia is scared that I'm drawing attention to myself(why? that's silly). Mafia is gonna want to kill me, so a power role doesn't want to act like me(wifom - at best)
2. I'm completely full of ***** and the mafia isn't gonna kill me because I'm wrong about everything even though it's only page 2 and you guys are gonna mislynch me cause i'm town guys. guys. I'm town. But i'm not vanilla town. But remember in 1) i'm not a power role...woooo spoooky
3. i wouldn't be loud as scum cause I don't want me lynched. Guy remember 1 and 2, i'm totes town
MAYBE I REALLY WANT THE ATTENTION BECAUSE I'M AN INCREDIBLY NICHE TOWN ROLE! GUYS I'M BULLETPROOF
just food for thought nbd bros.
but really i just claimed bulletproof
~~~~~~
Do you know who else is bulletproof? Godfather.
lynch when you guys are ready.
When Bloodmoon asks for further clarification, you come back in 216 saying that because he followed up his joke with a serious response afterwards, he was nervous or thought we wouldn't be satisfied with his answer, and must be scum because of the following:
Ignoring the WIFOMish content of the post (because I'm already aware that it's quite a bit of WIFOM, and have been keeping that in mind), could you explain why you feel that the only reason to revisit something that you made a joking comment on is to supersede suspicion? As opposed to, say, wanting to provide a serious answer to possible concerns or accusations? Lurker has a pretty evident sense of humor, so him making a joke response to something doesn't particularly surprise me - nor does him actually coming back and providing a more in-depth response later on. I'm not saying that the content of the response shouldn't throw up flags (and I can see your interpretation of 61 on its own as a scumtell), but I fail to see how 56 changes the context of 61 in any way, shape, or form.
As for him not providing a response to you in #214, you did state in #211 that you aren't changing your vote for the rest of the day, regardless of any further information that conflicts with your current read... I'm not sure why you're then surprised that he's not responding to you directly. You're tunneled in on him, for good or ill at this point. It doesn't mean he doesn't have to convince the rest of us, but honestly, I'm not convinced by your case, as it's pretty much entirely based on one interpretation of #61, which is flawed in itself. You say that he's subtly claiming Bulletproof because Godfather is Bulletproof... but Godfather is not, by default, Bulletproof - the default is that it shows up as town to Cops. Nothing more. I don't know if the Bulletproof variant is normally used on MTGS or not, as I haven't seen many games with a Godfather at all (particularly not in Basic or Normal games). You may be used to games where the Bulletproof Godfather is the norm, but the fact that you're automatically assuming that his post points to a variant of a role that doesn't seem to be common in the kind of game we're in is another mark against you. Not to mention, getting
from Lurker's post #61 tells me you didn't even properly read the post, given the bolded section. And so that you can't misread this, I'm going to be as direct as possible in pointing out your error.
I went ahead and bolded the important section in the second suggestion he makes - that his noisiness is on the wrong targets. That is what separates point 2 from point 1, and what he forgot to specify (likely because it can be understood given the context of the post itself). In point 1, he's suggesting that the Mafia would be scared of him not because his noisiness draws attention to himself, but because he's got scum in his sights, and his noisiness is drawing attention to them. I'm not going to go into speculating what they would do here (unless you ask me directly), for that way lies the murky depths of WIFOM. In point 2, he's suggesting that if he is town, but is focusing on non-Mafia targets, that the Mafia would have no reason to worry much about him - if he's trying to get town lynched, he's helping do their job for them. Obviously, case three is if he is Mafia, which is an entirely different issue than how the Mafia would react if he were town (and what strategies would be appropriate for a town power role vs vanilla - again, not something I necessarily want to delve into too much due to the fact that it becomes layers upon layers of WIFOM.)
But you've already stated that you will not be swayed by any evidence, and that you intend to keep your vote on Lurker no matter what. With you having stated that, I'm not sure why it surprises you that Lurker would choose not to bother trying to convince you otherwise.
(Also, I believe the vote counter wasn't getting it because you didn't have a space after the colon in your original vote from #182.)
@EternalLurker: Much as I hate to say it given the general tone he's been using, Audio has a point - I went through and reread your posts, and there actually was very little of substance regarding your reads. You've mentioned that you do have scum or town reads on people, but rarely why.
Below is a brief overview of all of Lurker's posts to this point - bolded items are where there is actual analysis or explanation of reads involved, or a challenge to someone else's given analysis/reads. As a note, I'm not making any commentary here on what I agree/disagree with from any of these posts - this is simply a look at Lurker's posts alone.
#24: RVS vote change to Folza.
#27: Discussion with me on how the insta-win ability should be worded on a card.
#28: Comment that the vote counter does not require you to unvote before counting a new vote.
#31: Joking answer from the brief card mechanic discussion, link to explanation of how vote counter works, and comment that Mograppler looks scummy (with no actual explanation of why).
#36: Explanation to Mograppler of why a D1 No-Lynch is a bad idea.
#39: Explanation of why he's reading Mograppler as scummy at this time.
#41: RVS vote on Sunray.
#43: Comment about Sunray making an OMGUS vote.
#46: "ez game ez lief"
#49: Townread on me (with no explanation as to why), scumread on Mog and Sunray (with no explanation as to why on Sunray), comments that it's still page 1 and too early to have thoughts on the rest of the field, commentary on Torg's vote on Sunray seeming scummy with no detail of why.
#50: Revote on Sunray due to concerns that the vote counter might attribute a quoted vote from me as his vote.
#54: Mention that olli*** has a page of info to work with, and request that someone else vote him so he(Lurker) doesn't have to unvote Sunray, with no explanation given for vote reason (or whether it's RVS or not).
#56: Loose cannon joke post.
#58: Comment that his posts are likeable.
#61: Deliciously WIFOMy post regarding how his posting could be read.
#63: Definition of RVS and OMGUS.
#66: Further explanation of why Torg's vote on Sunray seems scummy, further elaboration on #61, explanation of how to quote/multiquote.
#67: General elaboration on why an RVS vote on someone who's already got an RVS vote would be seen as a scumtell, further elaborating on Torg's vote
#70: Stated willingness to explain his posts, linked to what he was referencing for nago's benefit.
#89: Mention that we shouldn't focus everything on active players at the time.
#103: Explanation of how to subscribe, mention of Juls's lack of content (no explanation of why posting with lack of useful content could seem scummy).
#105: Further mention of Juls's lack of content (and no explanation of why it seems scummy).
#109: Mention that he should be considered town because people who were perceived as scum were on his wagon.
#114: Questioning Juls's comment about him joining a bandwagon.
#115: Explaining to olli*** that there's no need or purpose for roleplaying as our characters.
#117: Explaining to olli*** that proper voting syntax is necessary.
#120: Mention that we need more activity, suggesting that we put pressure on Sunray, mention of Sunray's comment that he'll opt out of the discussions as a scumtell, mention of Juls as a null read and noob read.
#122: Calling scumtell on Mystic based on his opting out as soon as attention was directed towards him as possible scum, linking relevant posts.
#123: Syntax error complaint.
#126: Explanation of flavor vs mechanics, call to others to join the wagon on Mystic, arguments about where it should stop to comfortably pressure someone without risk of quickhammer.
#128: Elaboration on why pressure wagon size is relevant in relation to quickhammer possibility and what quickhammer indicates.
#136: Comment towards me with no explanation whatsoever.
#138: Advising Wheat of error in vote count.
#143: Post analysis of my post #135 and concern that I was pocketing he.
#146: Why he called nago Bacon, and indicating that the originally cited posts from Sunray were all we had from him for that wagon.
#152: Explanation of why you felt Sunray ducking out of conversation was scumtell.
#153: Thanking nago for clarifying his name.
#154: Mention that he's willing to wagon on Folza, mentioning Folza as problematic (due to lurking).
#158: Vote on Folza.
#164: Mention that olli***'s posting has been about not having information but not trying to gain information.
#167: Mention that olli***'s posting pattern holds true for others as well, and that he holsd Folza and Sunray as higher scumreads.
#171: General note that replacement is not alignment indicative.
#173: Mentioned understanding of why Mog reentered his vote, mention of D_V replacing into suspected scum slot, asking D_V and Rhand for reads and advice regarding handling inactives in general.
#175: Joking response to D_V.
#180: Questioning how D_V sees posting nothing of merit as a townread.
#183: Comments on Audio's vote on him, but no mention of town/scum read.
#184: Realizing that he no longer has a wagon.
#187: Mention that offering to replace is not indicative of alignment, to dispute D_V's townread of Folza based on suggestion to replace.
#189: Mention of lurkers and how Mafia could lurk their way to free win, challenging Audio's scumread on him.
#190: Request for clarification regarding Audio's claim that #56 is a scumtell.
#202: Explanation of his concerns of possible scumtells from me, indication that he doesn't see possible scumbuddy setup with me and Sunray/D_V slot (plus link to vote for context), reference to why he claims nago was townreading you.
#214: Mention of Audio's #211 as possible scumtell, mention that Audio isn't in his top scumreads.
#217: Explanation of why he wouldn't see a need to respond to Audio after Audio's claim that he would not change vote from Lurker, suggestion that Audio's push to move votes away from current lurking players could be scumtell.
I think he's talking about DCIII, a player who uses a lot of words to explain stuff.
I'm a bit too hungover now to read that post. I'll be back later today when hopefully I feel a bit better