@All: Sorry for the incoming wall of text, but this is my first opportunity to do anything with this today, and it's been moving quickly. That said, good on you guys for keeping things moving! Nice to have a game that's not full of lurkers (not to be confused with Lurker).
@StudyLatin: The question in #8 about who has the best scumgame is interesting, to say the least. I personally am not a fan of trying to meta based on other games a person has played, though that's more personal preference. And you mention in #12 that you want an idea of site meta and overall skill, but you're specifically asking who has the best scum game as opposed to who is most experienced, best overall, or even who has the best town game. You also mention in #100 that you feel it can give you an idea of how good scum play can be on the site, which again, I'm not certain why you would focus on that side of the game. Could you elaborate on why you want to know about scum play specifically?
In #60, you quote Shadow's post, and simply reply with 'Mind-meld'. Could you explain this statement? In addition, could you provide reasoning for your Killjoy vote?
To you question from #81, I'm not willing to make a call yet on whether both are town or not. I get a light town vibe from both of them, but it takes some time for me to really begin forming proper reads on people, so at the moment I'm not willing to call either of them anything but null reads.
@Kabazame: Question on your #13: Any particular reason why you refused to provide an RVS post?
Also, regarding #23, why are you so concerned with the tone and wording of Latin's post? I personally have no issues with his tone and verbiage (you'll find that mine tends to be similar, particularly in regards to some of my word choices).
And to answer your question in #66 - I'm known for using words like that (given the proper context, at least) in casual conversation. You mention specifically that you think Latin sounds tense, though. Is there anything in his posts that you're finding specifically evokes that belief?
In #86 you mention that people taking the time to think out their posts is an indicator that they're paranoid or nervous, or are otherwise hiding a scum alignment. Why do you disregard the possibility that a person may simply be taking the time to ensure they are not using a harsher tone than intended, or ensuring that there is no ambiguity in their wording?
Also, could you explain your comment in #87 that you feel RVS is beneficial to scum?
@JeY k: Noted regarding the name thing (see #18) - I'll use Jey in general comments, though I'll still use the full name with the @ addressing of comments to you.
In #52, you mention that you're unhappy for RVS ending early - do you think there's more specific benefits from an extended RVS as opposed to moving towards standard play and allowing more time for information to be gathered and reads to be formed from it? And what specifically is making you vote Lurker? The vote seems to almost be intended as an 'OMGUS, you pushed us out of RVS too soon' given the context of the rest of the post, so I'm wondering what other reasoning you have for it.
You mention in #79 that you tend to have good reads, but are poor at explaining them. Is there any reason why you bring this up specifically? (You reference it as a response to Latin, but I can't tell what you're responding to from him with it.) As a standalone statement, it seems to be scummy, as it seems you're trying to convince people to follow your reads without sufficient explanation. Also, when you say you don't like Shadow, any particular reasoning?
@EternalLurker: Regarding #20, Latin asking who the best scum player on the site has several possible reasons that I can come up with off the top of my head, each one more WIFOMy than the last. I'll elaborate if people ask, but otherwise I'll just leave it as mentioning that I don't see it as a scum move specifically.
In #43, you mention that Killjoy proclaiming you vs Latin as a TvT conflict doesn't benefit scum. As a thought exercise, what if Killjoy and either yourself or Latin (doesn't matter which) are scum. Do you still see no benefit to Killjoy writing it off as TvT?
In #47, you comment that if you were scum, you'd opt to pocket Anak. Any reason why him specifically?
In #50, you mention Anak as one of your scum reads (and one of your only non-null reads to this point). What are you seeing as scumtells from him?
You state in #77 that if Shadow considered Vaimes to be a good vote, you'd be willing to back him. Does this mean you're reading Shadow as town at the moment, and if so, why?
@Rodemy: Regarding #22, why vote seppel? I mean, I get that he's obvious scum, but he's scum somewhere else and is thus not bothering us, right? Also, why a goat?
On a more serious note, you mention in #32 that you feel Lurker is fearmongering in his #11, with his comments regarding Latin's question. And while you cite it later as a scumtell in #92, you still do not put any vote on him. Is there someone who you feel is more scummy than him at the moment (and as such more deserving of a vote or pressure), or are you uncertain about your read on Lurker for some reason?
And regarding the comment in #101 about having to unvote to change the vote, I don't believe this is the case if the current version of the vote counter software is being used. I'm not 100% certain on that, though, as I use unvotes out of habit.
@LnGrrrR: In #24, you said that Lurker's vote on Latin from #11 felt forced. Why do you say that, and what do you think it indicates?
@Toastboy: In #30, you vote for a 'Cantrimancer'. I've never heard of this individual, nor have I seen them participate in any games on this site. Who is he, and why are you convinced he's scum? Also, what kind of magic would cantrimancy even be?
@Vaimes: You claim a light townread on Kaba in #33. Any particular reasoning for townreading him over anyone else who has posted to that point?
@Anaklusmos: In #34, you complain about people ending RVS, then promptly vote for LnG with no explanation given. By the tone of the post, should we assume that this vote is not random - and if it is not, could you share your reasoning for it?
@shadowlancerx: In #35, you mention that your question about Lurker's vote was to see if it was joking or not. Do you have any thoughts on the vote or what it could indicate about Lurker knowing that it was serious?
@Pa Tennis: In #38, you mention early townreads on Lurker and Kaba, and provide reasoning. You don't provide any reasoning for the vote on Shadow, however - and as you confirmed in #41, it's not random. What made you vote him?
You call Latin a 'keystone read' in #71, but don't provide any additional detail. What do you mean by this - are you considering him town or scum, and what relevance does he have as a 'keystone read'? Also, you complain about Shadow attacking people but being sort of random, when the only person he seems to be attacking is Lurker. Can you explain his 'randomness' further?
@Killjoy: Could you please elaborate on why you've reached the reads you mention in #42?
In #85, you mention that you are waiting for more of the game to unfold before you go into detail about your reads. While I'm not getting the best vibes from your refusal to elaborate on that reasoning, I will ask you to at least explain what those reasons are (even if you do also explain the reads, I want to know your reasoning for withholding that information to this point).
@Tubba Fett: While I'll be happy to answer any general questions regarding the game, it's advisable to try and form your own leads. Overall, it's mainly logic - look at a person's posts, try to understand why they're saying what they do, and see if you can figure out whether it's a town, scum, or neutral course of action. Keep repeating, and try to identify anything that makes it seem like they aren't attempting to actually do what they say they're attempting to do.
@Zionite: In #75, you vote Rodemy because he wasn't voting anyone. Any particular reasoning why you vote him in particular for that, when nearly half of the field was not voting at that time?
General Opinion So Far: Overall, I don't have a strong enough town lean on anyone to credit anyone there. Most of my reads at the moment are null, with Pa Tennis standing out as scum due to his vote on Shadow in #38, and his relative lack of reasoning for it (his arguments in #71 seem particularly poor to me), and Killjoy leaning that way for me due to his insistence on not providing reasoning. If I had to pick a single town read at this point it would likely be Latin, just because his line of thought is largely making sense to me (I could easily see myself making many of those posts, in fact). However, I am concerned as - if he is instead scum - he could easily be pocketing Tubba Fett, and the line of questioning regarding the best scum player is making me hesitant to give him anything more than a very weak town read at present.
You have got to stop implying/suggesting/outright saying that other people are bad at this game with the frequency you have been. It's annoying, insulting, and frustrating to deal with. I am not bad at this game; being wrong or doing something outside of the scope of how you expect or believe someone should play does not make them bad.
Also, why so many bold tags? If you feel that strongly about emphasis on certain words or phrases you're saying, could you try italics instead? It would make it easier to read.The indignation levels coming off of EL feel real, which means the odds are he's town or scum who truly doesn't believe my points against him are valid. I'm gonna go ahead and Unvote
for now and disengage before I get trapped in a tunnel war. I don't have the time or energy to dive into everything you said but I do want to specifically ask: What do you mean then, when saying that someone getting defensive is "odd"?
@Eternal. I am done talking about it. Clearly you are right and everything i am saying is dumb if interpreted in a certain way. Done. Done Done.
Cool, Rodemy is town. (For this post and the entire back and forth with Lurker)
@BlueEclipse: Regarding post 35 and Lurker's serious vote, I'd rank it as slightly more likely to come from scum than town, but it's a small thing when analyzing Lurker.
@Blue, the reason I voted EL is because I dont see how he sees the "Who has the best scumgame?" question coming from a scum mindset. It feels like a very townie question to me (yeah sure WIFOM whatever), and EL's explanation felt like it was forced in order to "justify" a "real" vote.
I'm still reading sporadically, just waiting for some free time to post thoughts. Summer vacation with a 7 year old, 5 year old, and 10 month old is... a bit hectic.
@Shadow, when you first mentiomed chainsawing, you said, "You're so sure I am town..." But if he was scum, of course he would be sure if you were town... barring some third party shenanigans that I doubt this game has. Could you explain why you wrote it in that particular way?
@Blue, I am not the person who asked, but I dont think it helps to ask who is the best townie, as you arent trying to lynch that person. And asking who the best player is doesnt work, because you don't know if they are scum or not AND it doesn't tell you whether they are good at being scum. If you are town, the thing you need to focus on is scum, and asking who the best is ensures that person can't skate by.
@Karabakazme, who else, if anyone, do you think has shown hesitation in this game?
I see there was a couple Shadow posts I didn't see before my last one. Will have to remember to refresh this forum after posting.
He actually calls Eternal out in one of them (67) on the same thing I was seeing in him, though I see what Eternal was doing as a bit different. And then Rodemy did it just so blatantly in his notes post. So now I'm forced to wonder if that's just a normal thing when phases are this long. It seems really exploitable for scum if that's just a part of the meta. Will have to do some pondering on this.
Latin has a way of assuming peoples intentions that just... seems so innocent. It's kind of adorable actually. And I think it comes from town.
(by the way, you have to unvote in order to change your vote. Soooo your switch from vaimes to latin wasn't actually legit.. but it seems that it doesn't matter to Eco in this game.. or he hasn't said anything yet.)
Mod Note: You do not have to unvote in order to move your vote. In fact, your vote is more likely to be syntactically correct if you don't unvote first.
@StudyLatin: The question in #8 about who has the best scumgame is interesting, to say the least. I personally am not a fan of trying to meta based on other games a person has played, though that's more personal preference. And you mention in #12 that you want an idea of site meta and overall skill, but you're specifically asking who has the best scum game as opposed to who is most experienced, best overall, or even who has the best town game. You also mention in #100 that you feel it can give you an idea of how good scum play can be on the site, which again, I'm not certain why you would focus on that side of the game. Could you elaborate on why you want to know about scum play specifically?
Well, if you want me to get more specific, (I thought #100 explained most of it), by asking who the best scumplayer was I suppose I could eventually draw out a scope of the scumplay that could occur in this game, that scope would answer questions like: "how hard would scum bus this game?" or "will scum vote together?" or even "how much distancing or buddying should I expect?" Knowing the complexity of scumplay is helpful, knowing individual meta can also be a helpful tool, but neither are really necessary for playing decently fmpov.
In #60, you quote Shadow's post, and simply reply with 'Mind-meld'. Could you explain this statement? In addition, could you provide reasoning for your Killjoy vote?
Shadow and I had the same thoughts in regards to EL's reaction to my question, id est, we both thought the question was NAI and we weren't sure why EL got scumvibes from it. I voted Killjoy because it seemed somewhat odd to me that he gives three reads, two town reads, one scum read, all with no explanation, and then he unvotes without revoting the person he just gave a scumread for. That was the original reason, now I'm somewhat confused on why he's witholding explanations for those reads because obviously as time progresses, and people post more in the thread, those reads are liable to change. I was just curious as to how he got those reads at that time.
To you question from #81, I'm not willing to make a call yet on whether both are town or not. I get a light town vibe from both of them, but it takes some time for me to really begin forming proper reads on people, so at the moment I'm not willing to call either of them anything but null reads.
How much time exactly? Reads can change, they're dynamic entities, you don't have to be dead certain of a read before you put it in the thread, in fact I doubt a majority of the people who gave reads page 1 were.
General Opinion So Far: Overall, I don't have a strong enough town lean on anyone to credit anyone there. Most of my reads at the moment are null, with Pa Tennis standing out as scum due to his vote on Shadow in #38, and his relative lack of reasoning for it (his arguments in #71 seem particularly poor to me), and Killjoy leaning that way for me due to his insistence on not providing reasoning. If I had to pick a single town read at this point it would likely be Latin, just because his line of thought is largely making sense to me (I could easily see myself making many of those posts, in fact). However, I am concerned as - if he is instead scum - he could easily be pocketing Tubba Fett, and the line of questioning regarding the best scum player is making me hesitant to give him anything more than a very weak town read at present.
I think there's enough material to form cohesive reads on both EL and Shadow so far, but that's just me.
What do you make of Pa's #107?
You give a couple very large hypotheticals at the end of your post here that don't end with you taking a real stance with your read on me.
Please explain where you think I'm pocketing Fett.
@BE and Shadow My vote on Lngr was serious, based off of his vote in 24. He unvotes and votes EL, and said that his vote was forced. I see that working for scum in a couple ways, because it's a vote he could go back and claim was serious or not depending on what he needs. It could be RVS because it wasn't quite over, and could be legit because it was his second vote.
Additionally, I don't believe him that he voted because ELs vote felt forced, like all votes around there are forced. I think it's more likely an excuse he put down that sounds good on it's face.
Okay so EL, you have to slow down just a touch. Reading the last couple pages I found myself unintentionally skimming your posts because you were just arguing the smallest details and bringing people down. I personally will vouch for shadows skill after steamrolling me one game as scum, and bussing my ass so hard the next that he carried us to victory. Let's all try to find scum together and not mire the thread down in discussions that aren't going to get us there.
Side note, I think EL and Shadow are both likely town after that back and forth.
@EL you made an interesting statement, why would you try to pocket me? I am most certainly not the best or most vocal player, so what would it gain you to successfully pocket me?
Having just come from a game where I witnessed hardcore Day 1 bussing resulting in a scum getting vig'd and another getting lynched that same day, it's entirely possible.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm now curious as to why you think the dialogue between Shadow and EL is scum-theatre.
Are you referring to revolution mafia by any chance? Or another game?
Also last few times I betrayed my intuition this game it cost me. EternalLurker is the more likely of scum in my suspicions of him and shadowlancerx. Everyone is getting town reads but I don't buy it; not right now.
Are you saying you don't think anyone else's townreads on those slots have merit to them?
Gut has the tendency to be wrong in my experience, it's not an always accurate tool, but it is helpful in gaining more concrete reads.
Aside; I just realized you do the same 'three dashes' separator thing I do while I was quoting your post
On topic, as to why I think it's a scum dialogue, I don't think the dialogue is scummy so I can't tell you that; it's just the feel I get from both players individually.
I don't think the other town claims have a lack of merit. I see where they're coming from, but as someone who consistently plays anti-meta or meta-breaking in whatever competitive event I'm part of, meta town behavior =/= guaranteed town. You can ask, 'Why would scum EternalLuker do X, Y and Z?' and the answer would be 'Well, it made you think he was town didn't it?'
It's early enough in the game that this type of analysis won't immediately be useful; but don't confuse that with 'never' useful or 'shouldn't be done'.
@JeY k:In #52, you mention that you're unhappy for RVS ending early - do you think there's more specific benefits from an extended RVS as opposed to moving towards standard play and allowing more time for information to be gathered and reads to be formed from it? And what specifically is making you vote Lurker? The vote seems to almost be intended as an 'OMGUS, you pushed us out of RVS too soon' given the context of the rest of the post, so I'm wondering what other reasoning you have for it.
You mention in #79 that you tend to have good reads, but are poor at explaining them. Is there any reason why you bring this up specifically? (You reference it as a response to Latin, but I can't tell what you're responding to from him with it.) As a standalone statement, it seems to be scummy, as it seems you're trying to convince people to follow your reads without sufficient explanation. Also, when you say you don't like Shadow, any particular reasoning?
It's not an OMGUS, it was to encourage him take my questions seriously, which he actually pointed out later.
I bring it up since I post stream-of-consciousness. I try to send the message of 'nothing to hide' when I just post my honest thoughts and people are always welcome to ask questions. The context was Study Latin asked me to explain my reads and all I can do is 'lolidk'. It'll come to me later. Sure it's bound to raise a few eyebrows but if I get the ball rolling and people end up connecting the dots putting into words what I cannot physically cannot grasp besides my own instinct it works out.
TL;DR I have no idea why I don't like shadowlancerx I'll try to re-read and figure it out but I'm certain it'll suck.
As for the rest of your post for specific people, it reads reminiscent of the type of flow someone on the scum team would give, but I don't get bad feelings about it. Maybe this is mostly a town-way of doing things and my inexperience is creating a false bias.
In #43, you mention that Killjoy proclaiming you vs Latin as a TvT conflict doesn't benefit scum. As a thought exercise, what if Killjoy and either yourself or Latin (doesn't matter which) are scum. Do you still see no benefit to Killjoy writing it off as TvT?
Obviously I had no reason to consider the former option there. The latter was certainly a possibility, but I figured I'd cross that bridge if I came to it; linking themselves that early on would make it easy to grab them both as consecutive lynches later, so I wasn't particularly concerned about it at the time.
In #47, you comment that if you were scum, you'd opt to pocket Anak. Any reason why him specifically?
Of course. (When do I say things without reasons? ) Anak's post #34 complained about the end of RVS, for which I was primarily responsible, yet he simultaneously voted against the only person who was voting for me at the time, with no explanation. As Mafia (and not knowing Anak enough to hypothesize in more depth about his second post of the game), I would probably have interpreted that as him joking about being upset, while truthfully approving of my actions. That'd make him an easy pocket.
In #50, you mention Anak as one of your scum reads (and one of your only non-null reads to this point). What are you seeing as scumtells from him?
Same post (his only non-RVS post, so obviously that's the one). It looked like the beginning of an attempt to pocket me, since -- as the main person who pushed us out of RVS, in a meta even more horrifically hostile to that than I'd initially expected -- he probably realized I would either weather the inevitable wagon and come out as a strong Town read or just get lynched at the end of Day One, and in either case he'd get Town cred for backing me.
You state in #77 that if Shadow considered Vaimes to be a good vote, you'd be willing to back him. Does this mean you're reading Shadow as town at the moment, and if so, why?
Your foundational assumption there is incorrect. Why do I have to consider someone to be Town in order to acknowledge good reasoning for a vote? Bussing happens. If the reasoning is iffy, my read on the person certainly matters, but if the reasoning is solid, then the person delivering it is irrelevant.
But yes, I wasn't yet scum-reading shadow at the time of post #39 (which is what the post you're discussing was referencing).
You have got to stop implying/suggesting/outright saying that other people are bad at this game with the frequency you have been. It's annoying, insulting, and frustrating to deal with. I am not bad at this game; being wrong or doing something outside of the scope of how you expect or believe someone should play does not make them bad.
People take things so ******* personally here (unless it comes from people who are established members of the community, which shows how inconsistent tonal interpretations can be). If someone makes a suboptimal play, I'm going to state plainly that it's a suboptimal play, because that can potentially be scum behavior and ignoring it would be horribly irresponsible. If there's disagreement on that front, tell me why you think it is actually a good play instead of just railing against any sort of criticism in general, and I'll be perfectly open to having that discussion.
I don't have the time or energy to dive into everything you said
I don't normally want to drown people in quote-walls; it doesn't always make for good discussion (as Anak rightfully pointed out in #111). But you quote-walled me first, so I figured you wanted that format...?
but I do want to specifically ask: What do you mean then, when saying that someone getting defensive is "odd"?
Latin's post #21 was odd because he was quoting and replying to my post #20, in which I very clearly stated that the question was a "bad idea" that "seemed logical on the surface"...nothing about it being blatantly scummy behavior. Yet his response was "You extrapolated the scummiest thing I could do from asking a question like that", which was obviously not what I was doing, as his very quote indicated. Twisting my words to make it seem like I was attacking him could've been an overreaction from a hyper-defensive Townie, or it could've been an initiation of an OMGUS attempt by scum. I'm coming to the conclusion that it was the former, but at the time it was most certainly "odd".
@EL you made an interesting statement, why would you try to pocket me? I am most certainly not the best or most vocal player, so what would it gain you to successfully pocket me?
Answered this in the second paragraph of this post, but also, I don't generally pocket the most vocal player (and I don't know you well enough to judge whether or not you're the "best", so that's not a consideration). Everything obviously depends on the circumstances, but I'm more likely to shoot rather than pocket the most vocal player -- perhaps partially because I tend to be the most vocal player as Town, but mostly because consistently silencing the loudest voice tends to reduce Town's willingness to communicate, which is good for scum.
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Might as well update the current reads list. Grouped for convenience; it's still a top=Town to bottom=Mafia list as normal.
Making me happy:
Study Latin: Has consistently responded well to being pressured.
Jey K: Solid posts so far, definite feeling of being unaligned with everyone. (especially me D: )
Kabazame: Different axioms, but consistent logic from them.
I have no idea how to read this:
Anaklusmos: slight scum ping early, but recent post felt totally NAI to me, so Iunno yet
Tubba Fett: what is this even
Haven't posted ***** thus far; note to self, don't let them lurk:
Rhand
Zionite
Toastboy
Vaimes (on V/LA atm)
LnGrrrR (has posted a little but it's very content-light, which is a problem)
Being too vague:
Killjoy: At least acknowledges that he should be explaining his reads, but that's not much consolation.
Pa Tennis: Seems to be giving more depth to his reads now, but I'm not sold yet.
Not making me happy
Rodemy/Shadowlancer: "test the 'EL is scum' wagon...no one else agrees? whoops, run awaaaaaaay"
BluesEclipse: hoo boy, see below
Given that...
Vote: BluesEclipse
This feels like he's trying to follow my Town playbook in order to ingratiate himself. "Oh, hey, EL's starting to Town-read Latin, who's been mostly asking questions. Let me write up a question-wall. Oh, but wait, in post #89 EL criticizes Latin for not offering his own opinions instead of just questions. Let me throw in a half-hearted final paragraph about my own opinions, in which I basically say everyone is null to me...but that I'm defaulting to Mafia reads instead of Town reads, so that everyone is still available as a lynch target. Hm, let me seem less scummy by even throwing in a Town read of Latin -- and then hedge that read as hard as possible with a conspiracy theory."
yeah, easily the scummiest post in the entire thread
I personally will vouch for shadows skill after steamrolling me one game as scum, and bussing my ass so hard the next that he carried us to victory.
I certainly never said he was bad; hell, I even agreed with his joke about being the best scum player here. (I think I said that his reads on me were terrible, but of course I'm going to think that, because I have incontrovertible proof of my alignment and he does not.) That said, I do find it extremely odd that your attempt to vouch for his skill as Town...is to reference two games in which he showed his skill as scum. lolwut?
I see there was a couple Shadow posts I didn't see before my last one. Will have to remember to refresh this forum after posting.
He actually calls Eternal out in one of them (67) on the same thing I was seeing in him, though I see what Eternal was doing as a bit different. And then Rodemy did it just so blatantly in his notes post. So now I'm forced to wonder if that's just a normal thing when phases are this long. It seems really exploitable for scum if that's just a part of the meta. Will have to do some pondering on this.
Latin has a way of assuming peoples intentions that just... seems so innocent. It's kind of adorable actually. And I think it comes from town.
Blues' questions seem largely to be busywork.
Unvote, Vote Jey K
Couple of questions:
*what is the "thing"?
*Point out Latin assuming peoples intentions
*Where the hell did that jey vote come from?
vote Pa Tennis
Also who are your scum budddies?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you for choosing
Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
This feels like he's trying to follow my Town playbook in order to ingratiate himself. "Oh, hey, EL's starting to Town-read Latin, who's been mostly asking questions. Let me write up a question-wall. Oh, but wait, in post #89 EL criticizes Latin for not offering his own opinions instead of just questions. Let me throw in a half-hearted final paragraph about my own opinions, in which I basically say everyone is null to me...but that I'm defaulting to Mafia reads instead of Town reads, so that everyone is still available as a lynch target. Hm, let me seem less scummy by even throwing in a Town read of Latin -- and then hedge that read as hard as possible with a conspiracy theory."
yeah, easily the scummiest post in the entire thread
I don't understand a good portion of this vote. From my perspective, it doesn't look like BE was trying to copy what you were doing. It just looks like a catch-up post any normal player would make, albeit somewhat long. I think you may be suffering from a type of bias, I can't put my finger on the name, but it involves perspectives.
However, you may have something on point with Eclipse's doubt towards my slot at the end of that post.
@Kabazame: Question on your #13: Any particular reason why you refused to provide an RVS post?
Also, regarding #23, why are you so concerned with the tone and wording of Latin's post? I personally have no issues with his tone and verbiage (you'll find that mine tends to be similar, particularly in regards to some of my word choices).
And to answer your question in #66 - I'm known for using words like that (given the proper context, at least) in casual conversation. You mention specifically that you think Latin sounds tense, though. Is there anything in his posts that you're finding specifically evokes that belief?
In #86 you mention that people taking the time to think out their posts is an indicator that they're paranoid or nervous, or are otherwise hiding a scum alignment. Why do you disregard the possibility that a person may simply be taking the time to ensure they are not using a harsher tone than intended, or ensuring that there is no ambiguity in their wording?
Also, could you explain your comment in #87 that you feel RVS is beneficial to scum?
RVS seems pointless to me, although I am new here. As for why it's beneficial to scum, if everyone is voting randomly than it's easy for scum to just play along and fit in with the crowd, whereas when people are actually debating points and making reads scum has to actually provide some content. Basically, it helps scum look like just another face in the crowd.
Study Latin may just be a guy who uses advanced vocabulary, but I don't know that so I'm just trying to get a feel for the players. Vocabulary aside, I think he overreacted to an early vote that didn't really matter. I'm not sure not to put it into words but his reaction felt very nervous, although it's possible he's just worried about being mislynched.
I'm not ruling out that he could be thinking his posts out for those reasons (I'm not even voting him!), I'm just making notes of things I observe and seeing how people react. To be honest, his reaction was pretty good.
@Karabakazme, who else, if anyone, do you think has shown hesitation in this game?
I'm guessing you mean me :/ lol
Tubba Fett, but he's new so I'll give him some time to get going
Jey K a little bit. Seems hesitant to push reads by mentioning that he often has good reads but doesn't know how to push them. Also says he will "provide something substantial later".
Of course, hesitation =/= scum, but it can be a piece of the puzzle in building a good read!
@LnGrrrR: I understand (albeit I don't necessarily agree - I can come up with two possible reasons for scum asking that question, and for town asking that question, off the top of my head). In the absence of additional information, it's null to me.
@Pa Tennis: I do have reasons for the questions I ask. Specifically, I'm trying to build an understanding of how people are thinking, and what is driving their logic. That being said, why the vote on Jey? Again, you are putting a vote out there with no rationale provided at all, so I'm curious as to what's making you want to vote the way you are. Also, could you elaborate on what you meant when you referred to Latin as a 'keystone read'? I'm still not understanding that part.
@Study Latin: Knowing who the 'best' scum player here is doesn't really answer those other questions, as they would come down more to the playstyles of the individuals who rolled scum rather than the playstyle or experience of the best scum player.
For the question of how long it takes for me to begin forming proper reads, I generally won't have much in that regard within the first 24-48 hours of the game (depending on how frequently I can slip onto the site from work and read over things), simply due to time constraints.
And Pa's #107 at least answered the question for why he voted Shadow, though I'm hoping it's not going to be a pattern for him to throw votes at people with no apparent reasoning behind them. That he calls my questions busywork is annoying, given that it's intended to get people to elaborate on their concerns and thought processes (though I was catching up on an entire day's worth of posting at once, so it was admittedly somewhat scattered).
My concerns with my town read on you were largely for three reasons. First, the possible pocketing of Fett. Though this is more due to his actions than yours, I feel that you should be encouraging him to form his own conclusions based on the facts - he seems very willing to accept your explanation of another player's posts rather than asking those players for clarification directly, and a scum player could easily be taking advantage of that. It means that I'm likely to scrutinize your responses to him a bit further, both because of possible pocketing and because if he is simply accepting your reads rather than requesting additional details from the player who made the post and forming his own reads, it puts you in the position of easily influencing a second vote. This is also why my comment to Fett was directing him to work towards forming his own leads - if he's willing to simply accept your opinions and take them as his own, you become a more important player regardless of your leanings.
The second concern was your reasoning for the questions about who the best scum player is, and you have at least explained to my satisfaction why it is that you asked those questions (though again, I don't think you would actually have learned what you were hoping to learn with that line of questioning).
Lastly, there is admittedly a bit of paranoia on my part - I am finding your posting style to be very similar to my own, and a part of me is simply hesitant to give you a town lean solely due to the possibility of perspective bias.
@Tubba Fett: See the above for concerns regarding you as well - I understand you are inexperienced with the game, and I am by no means saying that you need to put more trust in me than anyone else. However, by the same token, putting total faith in any individual player is a bad idea, unless they have been mechanically confirmed - consider the possible motivations they may have for a post if they are town, then consider the possible motivations behind the same post if they are scum, when reviewing anyone's posting.
@EternalLurker: The reason for the question wall is because I was catching up on a full day's worth of posts, in a very active game. I did not have the time I would have liked to keep up on things throughout the day and offer responses (work concerns), so I could not participate as actively in the conversation as I would have liked. I am not defaulting to scum reads on anyone, though - I have explained my reasons for the reads on Pa and Killjoy (in both cases, due to the lack of reasoning they're offering for their votes), and I consider everyone else null. And my concerns on Latin are outlined above (and so will not be repeated here), though I understand your concerns for that read.
Rodemy's primary reason for voting people seems to be that he hasn't read their posts. Which is noted I guess.
The "thing", as mentioned, is random voting while holding people accountable for their random votes from the same time period. Still not quite sure what to make of it. Shadow's was more subtle where Rodemy's was blatant. Lurker sort of did it with his "I wouldn't have voted there if it was later" but that struck me as more pushing on what's there when there wasn't much to go on yet.
A keystone read is someone who's alignment helps me figure out more people. As of right now, I think Latin is town. As for what that means, I'll have to get back to you.
My first impression was that it was good, it pushed the game forward and engaged everyone. But then I went through it again instead of just skimming and most of it is just filler. I kinda still don't mind it, I'm not really seeing an angle or agenda from it.
Pre-Edit: And his most recent post helps a lot. I have asked questions similarly in the past just to get into someone else's headspace. I like it, I'm happy with where BE is at right now.
Rodemy's primary reason for voting people seems to be that he hasn't read their posts. Which is noted I guess.
The "thing", as mentioned, is random voting while holding people accountable for their random votes from the same time period. Still not quite sure what to make of it. Shadow's was more subtle where Rodemy's was blatant. Lurker sort of did it with his "I wouldn't have voted there if it was later" but that struck me as more pushing on what's there when there wasn't much to go on yet.
A keystone read is someone who's alignment helps me figure out more people. As of right now, I think Latin is town. As for what that means, I'll have to get back to you.
would you quote me where you think I'm holding someone accountable for a random vote as opposed to a real vote?
Oh right. Because apparently on this site you vote randomly to start for an indeterminate period, but all votes must be explained in great detail.
I voted Jey for talking about going with her intuition when confronted with actual evidence in 96. But in her latest set of posts she talked through it a little.
I am now voting Blues because the questions he claims help build understanding do not.
Oh right. Because apparently on this site you vote randomly to start for an indeterminate period, but all votes must be explained in great detail.
I voted Jey for talking about going with her intuition when confronted with actual evidence in 96. But in her latest set of posts she talked through it a little.
I am now voting Blues because the questions he claims help build understanding do not.
Is this a response to me? Because I really was asking, not trying to discredit your post. If I've done something hypocritical, I'd like to know, it helps me better myself.
second post = town-reads me and votes shadow without explanation (shadow is pressuring me)
third post = answers my question without actually answering it
fourth post = town-reads me and attacks shadow (shadow is pressuring me)
fifth post = votes JeY K without explanation (JeY K is voting me)
sixth post = copies what I said about Rodemy, holds me to a double-standard by Town-reading me for the same thing for which he's scum-reading other people
seventh post = votes BluesEclipse without explanation (BluesEclipse is my current vote target)
Has there ever been a more textbook case of "Pocket the guy who's about to either get widely Town-read or be lynched"? That's literally every post now, barring the first nothing-post.
Guess you're off the hook for a bit, Blues, since my problem with you was exactly that it seemed like you were pocketing me by copying Latin's style of being Town. But now we have a much more evident pocketing case.
I'm a lil' worried that I might be driving too much activity and thus allowing Rhand+Zionite+Toastboy+Vaimes+LnGrrrR to fall off everyone's radars, as we're all focusing on each other while they have basically not posted yet. I'll back off and slow things down if so; I really wanna let those guys have a chance to come in and post before we end up missing potential scum in that group. Anyone who's more familiar with this forum wanna tell me if three pages by IRL-day 2 of a two-week deadline is considered normal?
@shadowlancerx
The post you made right before I voted you had 2 instances of it. One was eternal, the discussion on which went on at great length. The other was vaimes' lack of rvs vote.
I'm currently figuring out what exactly constitutes being random or serious in this meta. I'm currently leaning on you being a middle ground between, say, what eternal was doing which was pushing on things that didn't really matter just because you have nothing better to push on. Whereas Rodemy is actually demanding killjoy explain his read on him while saying it's unexplainable because RVS.
Man, it's great and not at all fishy that Zionite has now twice shown up shortly after I mention his name, while otherwise never posting. It's like I have a summon-Zionite button.
@shadowlancerx
The post you made right before I voted you had 2 instances of it. One was eternal, the discussion on which went on at great length. The other was vaimes' lack of rvs vote.
I'm currently figuring out what exactly constitutes being random or serious in this meta. I'm currently leaning on you being a middle ground between, say, what eternal was doing which was pushing on things that didn't really matter just because you have nothing better to push on. Whereas Rodemy is actually demanding killjoy explain his read on him while saying it's unexplainable because RVS.
So, because I have no idea when Vaimes will actually be able to answer about it, his lack of an RVS vote is something that, assuming it's his first time, I think is slightly more likely to come from town. Reason behind that being I think if you're going to do something for the first time that you know is considered a scum tell, better to try it first as town.
As for the Eternal thing, well like you said, it went on at length already and I don't have more to say about it.
Re-reading so I can give something more substantial than 'bad feeling' as my explanation for votes or dislikes.
EDIT: INCOMING WALL OF TEXT I DIDN'T REALIZE I'D FIND SO MUCH TO RESPOND TO SORRY I ALSO SPAMMED A LITTLE ;-; I WAS HAVING FUN OKAY
EDIT 2: Oh god it got even longer I'm so sorry
Nothing specific to quote so far, but by post #64 it feels like Shadow's doing a whole 'lot of nothing despite all the posts, and EternalLurker gives me the impression that he has inside information, only something that scum have in a mafia game. I think there's something better to support this later but I haven't gotten there yet. Still reading.
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Kabazame, you said you were new to mafia? Or just new to this forum? If it was before #66, I apologize for a terrible memory, if it's later I'll come back to this.
EDIT: Some of your later posts suggest you've definitely played before.
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Pa Tennis, keep doin' what you're doin'
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Shadow and EL arguing is nothing. There's no content or reads. Nobody is trying to scum-hunt, it's just a pillow fort battle. If one or both are scum, this is excellent fake content.
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@Study Latin your #81: Is there any specific reason you're trying to answer this for the posters of those reads rather than letting them explain themselves? This seems weird to me; I know you're trying to help out a newbie, I suppose, but were you hoping for more? If so, what?
I actually studied Spanish. I thought it would be much more applicable in life as opposed to a dead language, but that's just me.
I lol'd
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Suddenly an attack on shadowlancerx from EternalLurker... This is ridiculous. It's going to take someone saying 'lynch me I'm scum' to get me to move my vote. I wouldn't pass this off as pro-town/consider this as doing the town any favors if you paid me. I'm certain there's more stuff like this too.
shadowlancer was in said game, so I'd imagine he'd've learned that lesson.
I hate this all over again. I can't help but feel like EternalLurker continues to seem like he has inside knowledge somehow. You wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but it's what I feel.
Also Thanks @Rodemy for dismantling the pillowfort!
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Not re-reading BluesEclipse.
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Shadow posts again in #104, with nothing. Thanks, Shadow!
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After all of this time I still don't know how I should pronounce LnGrrrR.
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Got to Pa Tennis's vote on me; posts feel like they come from a mindset I have. I knew I liked this one.
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All EL seems to be doing after he got the game started is play pillowfort. Sir, I am the one person not accepting your towncred
Oh look, the one person who has been pushing EL as scummy the hardest is one of his favorites. That rubs me all the wrong ways. I feel like I need my play criticized as awful before I get validated or something ;\
And you know, I was going to compliment EL that despite my scummy vibe from him he avoided all low-hanging fruit (including me) until BluesEclipse rolled around. It seemed like he was playing more carefully than that, and it's possible now the bussing has just begun (since I'm not confident in BluesEclipse's post either), but more posts are required before something comes from this interaction.
Jey K a little bit. Seems hesitant to push reads by mentioning that he often has good reads but doesn't know how to push them. Also says he will "provide something substantial later".
There's a difference between can't explain and won't explain. I'm not hesitating to do anything, I'm just bad. With your second comment, I work full time as a software developer, and being at work all day... I'm sure you can do the math. I didn't actually think I'd have to justify that sentence.
Aside: I'm a girl
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Lol BluesEclipse is the second person to question Pa's vote on me; why am I the only person who understands why they did it?
The post they made doesn't give me any additional confidence.
I'm not going to say EternalLurker's vote on Pa Tennis seems awful, because he makes a good point, but I'm going to point out that my scummiest read is voting my towniest read.
Oh? Explain. give me a PBP (read 2 posts.) I don't buy scumreads based off 2 rvs posts. The only thing you can get a scumlean from my first post is the fact i am voting seppel (my only meta) which would mean you'd mention Jey's vote on iso.. buuut hey you don't mention him at all. So it would have to be my one post about Eternal fearmongoring. What about that pings your scumdar?
This needs to be unburied from the megapost. Does anyone find this reaction to a "potential light scumread" 40 posts in to a game reasonable? Especially coming from someone who purports to believe RVS doesn't mean anything.
More importantly, does your intuition tell you what inside information eternal has?
Not quite.
That he knows alignments, aka something only Scum can know.
I'll break that down. So it's not screaming to me that he knows alignments, but I can't shake the feeling that he knows something and is holding back the entire time he posts. So I come at it from the other side: What's the only possible thing that a player can have a general sense of inside info for in mafia?
"Good job avoiding targeting low-hanging fruit like me!" literally one sentence after "EL's Town-read of me rubs me all the wrong ways"...whether I scum-read you or Town-read you, you're saying you'll interpret either option as a scum-tell; that's the textbook definition of a tunnel
"EL doesn't like BluesEclipse's posts; that's scummy cuz BE is low-hanging fruit", followed by "I don't like either of BE's posts"...so it's just not okay when I do it? again, the tunnel is strong with this one
claiming that Pa Tennis has the same mindset as you and is your towniest read...while ignoring that he's Town-reading me while you've been entirely anti-me, so clearly your mindsets are nothing alike
referring to shadow's post #104 as "nothing", when you specifically quoted that exact post earlier and gushed over it...but of course this time you're looking at it while assuming shadow vs me is SvS, so you reinterpret it to fit your narrative of shadow being scummy
straight-up admitting that you're only interpreting my posts a certain way because you're already tunneled ("you wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but trust my inexplicable gut feelings please")
(-.-)
At least you've just done an excellent job convincing me that shadow is probably Town (although I'm still quite iffy about how Rodemy jumped on board the 1-man wagon that shadow started).
This is why playing on "gut feelings" is a BadIdea: it makes actual debate impossible (which is terrible for Town) because no one can respond seriously to "you give me BAD VIBES man", and it's just...prone to stuff like this, where you reinterpret everything you read to fit your feelings instead of forming your beliefs from what you're reading.
@ Kabazame
I'm waffling here, to be honest. You didn't want to vote randomly, which seemed town, but aside from some casual mudslinging (I.e. Study Latin) you don't seem to be really pushing anything/anyone. Looking at both of those actions has me wondering if you're just trying to fly under the radar.
@ JeY
I'm torn on the Eternal question. I've been getting town vibes because he seems to be putting in the work, but it's almost like he's putting in too much. Can you elaborate on your "pillow-fort" theory?
@ Blues
I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that I'm trusting anyone player more than another. My posts asking for clarity were addressed to everyone, and in some cases, seconded by others curious about the same things. I'll be grateful and appreciative of any help I receive, but I understand that anyone could have an ulterior motive for doing so.
"Good job avoiding targeting low-hanging fruit like me!" literally one sentence after "EL's Town-read of me rubs me all the wrong ways"...whether I scum-read you or Town-read you, you're saying you'll interpret either option as a scum-tell; that's the textbook definition of a tunnel
"EL doesn't like BluesEclipse's posts; that's scummy cuz BE is low-hanging fruit", followed by "I don't like either of BE's posts"...so it's just not okay when I do it? again, the tunnel is strong with this one
claiming that Pa Tennis has the same mindset as you and is your towniest read...while ignoring that he's Town-reading me while you've been entirely anti-me, so clearly your mindsets are nothing alike
referring to shadow's post #104 as "nothing", when you specifically quoted that exact post earlier and gushed over it...but of course this time you're looking at it while assuming shadow vs me is SvS, so you reinterpret it to fit your narrative of shadow being scummy
straight-up admitting that you're only interpreting my posts a certain way because you're already tunneled ("you wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but trust my inexplicable gut feelings please")
(-.-)
At least you've just done an excellent job convincing me that shadow is probably Town (although I'm still quite iffy about how Rodemy jumped on board the 1-man wagon that shadow started).
This is why playing on "gut feelings" is a BadIdea: it makes actual debate impossible (which is terrible for Town) because no one can respond seriously to "you give me BAD VIBES man", and it's just...prone to stuff like this, where you reinterpret everything you read to fit your feelings instead of forming your beliefs from what you're reading.
Debate is impossible, yet you responded to me, and here I am able to respond to you, right?
So here's my response to you: You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and I'm made to feel bad for a tunnel, if I'm reading what you're writing, so I can get off your case? Nobody wants to be lynched, so advising me to drop a tunnel isn't indicative of alignment, so let's look at why;
You're making a lot of claims that I'm bending statements to fit my narrative. I would ask to see your exact interpretation but I think that doesn't add anything, I would just be contributing to pillowforting.
Example: I didn't say I interpreted your vote as scummy, I was stating an observation, Play X is voting player Y. You and I are not the only players in this game.
Example 2:
whether I scum-read you or Town-read you, you're saying you'll interpret either option as a scum-tell; that's the textbook definition of a tunnel"
That's not what I said in the slightest.
So... I'm going to lay down a factoid about me: I mean exactly what I say. Everything I type is meant to be taken face-value, exactly what it says on the tin. As soon as you start drawing false conclusions about what I say versus what I mean, I'm growing extra suspicious. I've planted corn, and you're expecting it to grow into pumpkins.
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Hi Toastboy! I like your post. I'm going to check out Kabazame more in-depth tomorrow.
We need to lynch EternalLurker before he has a chance to abuse his town-cred for some messed up mis-lynches.
Annnnnd scum
vote Jey K
That was a super scummy post out of context, but in context JeY just seems like a hopelessly tunneled Townie to me. I'll let him defend himself and I have no issue with voting him based on that post, but I would definitely urge not looking at the post outside of the context of his entire ISO.
@Tubba Fett Once EternalLurker started stirring up some trouble and getting immediate towncred, all he's done since is defend himself against people. Scum love to coast, defending yourself doesn't really take much effort and it doesn't scum-hunt.
@EternalLurker there's a big difference between "Believes strongly to be scum" and "Will never believe to be anything except scum". The last few times I strongly believed someone was scum, they were. I mean, there was this one time I tunneled Xyre really hard because of a dream I had, but I was still able to be convinced he was town.
Oh? Explain. give me a PBP (read 2 posts.) I don't buy scumreads based off 2 rvs posts. The only thing you can get a scumlean from my first post is the fact i am voting seppel (my only meta) which would mean you'd mention Jey's vote on iso.. buuut hey you don't mention him at all. So it would have to be my one post about Eternal fearmongoring. What about that pings your scumdar?
This needs to be unburied from the megapost. Does anyone find this reaction to a "potential light scumread" 40 posts in to a game reasonable? Especially coming from someone who purports to believe RVS doesn't mean anything.
I just wanna know where the "light" scumread comes from. To me it looks like it could be an attempt to jump on a wagon of mine if it should occur.
I do at times get lynched d1, and killjoy has seen it.
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It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
It's going to take someone saying 'lynch me I'm scum' to get me to move my vote.
But it's okay; you're just gonna tell me I'm somehow misinterpreting your words that you just said I was supposed to take at face value under all circumstances.
It's incredibly unfortunate that I still think you're probably Town, because you're really doing your best not to act like it.
@Tubba Fett Once EternalLurker started stirring up some trouble and getting immediate towncred, all he's done since is defend himself against people. Scum love to coast, defending yourself doesn't really take much effort and it doesn't scum-hunt.
...You've been targeting me, so you're half the reason I've had to defend myself; calling me out on something you set up is classic scum behavior. Yet I've still made cases against Pa Tennis and BluesEclipse while you're the one who's been totally mono-dimensional in your actions thus far by focusing solely on me and shadow, so that's also just straight-up false.
Jeez, the flood of contradictions oozing from your posts is really melting through my Town-read of you.
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@StudyLatin: The question in #8 about who has the best scumgame is interesting, to say the least. I personally am not a fan of trying to meta based on other games a person has played, though that's more personal preference. And you mention in #12 that you want an idea of site meta and overall skill, but you're specifically asking who has the best scum game as opposed to who is most experienced, best overall, or even who has the best town game. You also mention in #100 that you feel it can give you an idea of how good scum play can be on the site, which again, I'm not certain why you would focus on that side of the game. Could you elaborate on why you want to know about scum play specifically?
In #60, you quote Shadow's post, and simply reply with 'Mind-meld'. Could you explain this statement? In addition, could you provide reasoning for your Killjoy vote?
To you question from #81, I'm not willing to make a call yet on whether both are town or not. I get a light town vibe from both of them, but it takes some time for me to really begin forming proper reads on people, so at the moment I'm not willing to call either of them anything but null reads.
@Kabazame: Question on your #13: Any particular reason why you refused to provide an RVS post?
Also, regarding #23, why are you so concerned with the tone and wording of Latin's post? I personally have no issues with his tone and verbiage (you'll find that mine tends to be similar, particularly in regards to some of my word choices).
And to answer your question in #66 - I'm known for using words like that (given the proper context, at least) in casual conversation. You mention specifically that you think Latin sounds tense, though. Is there anything in his posts that you're finding specifically evokes that belief?
In #86 you mention that people taking the time to think out their posts is an indicator that they're paranoid or nervous, or are otherwise hiding a scum alignment. Why do you disregard the possibility that a person may simply be taking the time to ensure they are not using a harsher tone than intended, or ensuring that there is no ambiguity in their wording?
Also, could you explain your comment in #87 that you feel RVS is beneficial to scum?
@JeY k: Noted regarding the name thing (see #18) - I'll use Jey in general comments, though I'll still use the full name with the @ addressing of comments to you.
In #52, you mention that you're unhappy for RVS ending early - do you think there's more specific benefits from an extended RVS as opposed to moving towards standard play and allowing more time for information to be gathered and reads to be formed from it? And what specifically is making you vote Lurker? The vote seems to almost be intended as an 'OMGUS, you pushed us out of RVS too soon' given the context of the rest of the post, so I'm wondering what other reasoning you have for it.
You mention in #79 that you tend to have good reads, but are poor at explaining them. Is there any reason why you bring this up specifically? (You reference it as a response to Latin, but I can't tell what you're responding to from him with it.) As a standalone statement, it seems to be scummy, as it seems you're trying to convince people to follow your reads without sufficient explanation. Also, when you say you don't like Shadow, any particular reasoning?
@EternalLurker: Regarding #20, Latin asking who the best scum player on the site has several possible reasons that I can come up with off the top of my head, each one more WIFOMy than the last. I'll elaborate if people ask, but otherwise I'll just leave it as mentioning that I don't see it as a scum move specifically.
In #43, you mention that Killjoy proclaiming you vs Latin as a TvT conflict doesn't benefit scum. As a thought exercise, what if Killjoy and either yourself or Latin (doesn't matter which) are scum. Do you still see no benefit to Killjoy writing it off as TvT?
In #47, you comment that if you were scum, you'd opt to pocket Anak. Any reason why him specifically?
In #50, you mention Anak as one of your scum reads (and one of your only non-null reads to this point). What are you seeing as scumtells from him?
You state in #77 that if Shadow considered Vaimes to be a good vote, you'd be willing to back him. Does this mean you're reading Shadow as town at the moment, and if so, why?
@Rodemy: Regarding #22, why vote seppel? I mean, I get that he's obvious scum, but he's scum somewhere else and is thus not bothering us, right? Also, why a goat?
On a more serious note, you mention in #32 that you feel Lurker is fearmongering in his #11, with his comments regarding Latin's question. And while you cite it later as a scumtell in #92, you still do not put any vote on him. Is there someone who you feel is more scummy than him at the moment (and as such more deserving of a vote or pressure), or are you uncertain about your read on Lurker for some reason?
And regarding the comment in #101 about having to unvote to change the vote, I don't believe this is the case if the current version of the vote counter software is being used. I'm not 100% certain on that, though, as I use unvotes out of habit.
@LnGrrrR: In #24, you said that Lurker's vote on Latin from #11 felt forced. Why do you say that, and what do you think it indicates?
@Toastboy: In #30, you vote for a 'Cantrimancer'. I've never heard of this individual, nor have I seen them participate in any games on this site. Who is he, and why are you convinced he's scum? Also, what kind of magic would cantrimancy even be?
@Vaimes: You claim a light townread on Kaba in #33. Any particular reasoning for townreading him over anyone else who has posted to that point?
@Anaklusmos: In #34, you complain about people ending RVS, then promptly vote for LnG with no explanation given. By the tone of the post, should we assume that this vote is not random - and if it is not, could you share your reasoning for it?
@shadowlancerx: In #35, you mention that your question about Lurker's vote was to see if it was joking or not. Do you have any thoughts on the vote or what it could indicate about Lurker knowing that it was serious?
@Pa Tennis: In #38, you mention early townreads on Lurker and Kaba, and provide reasoning. You don't provide any reasoning for the vote on Shadow, however - and as you confirmed in #41, it's not random. What made you vote him?
You call Latin a 'keystone read' in #71, but don't provide any additional detail. What do you mean by this - are you considering him town or scum, and what relevance does he have as a 'keystone read'? Also, you complain about Shadow attacking people but being sort of random, when the only person he seems to be attacking is Lurker. Can you explain his 'randomness' further?
@Killjoy: Could you please elaborate on why you've reached the reads you mention in #42?
In #85, you mention that you are waiting for more of the game to unfold before you go into detail about your reads. While I'm not getting the best vibes from your refusal to elaborate on that reasoning, I will ask you to at least explain what those reasons are (even if you do also explain the reads, I want to know your reasoning for withholding that information to this point).
@Tubba Fett: While I'll be happy to answer any general questions regarding the game, it's advisable to try and form your own leads. Overall, it's mainly logic - look at a person's posts, try to understand why they're saying what they do, and see if you can figure out whether it's a town, scum, or neutral course of action. Keep repeating, and try to identify anything that makes it seem like they aren't attempting to actually do what they say they're attempting to do.
@Zionite: In #75, you vote Rodemy because he wasn't voting anyone. Any particular reasoning why you vote him in particular for that, when nearly half of the field was not voting at that time?
General Opinion So Far: Overall, I don't have a strong enough town lean on anyone to credit anyone there. Most of my reads at the moment are null, with Pa Tennis standing out as scum due to his vote on Shadow in #38, and his relative lack of reasoning for it (his arguments in #71 seem particularly poor to me), and Killjoy leaning that way for me due to his insistence on not providing reasoning. If I had to pick a single town read at this point it would likely be Latin, just because his line of thought is largely making sense to me (I could easily see myself making many of those posts, in fact). However, I am concerned as - if he is instead scum - he could easily be pocketing Tubba Fett, and the line of questioning regarding the best scum player is making me hesitant to give him anything more than a very weak town read at present.
also, i really suck at early game mafia. Last game i was 0/4 on my scumspects.. So i am a little weary on my gut feelings now.
You have got to stop implying/suggesting/outright saying that other people are bad at this game with the frequency you have been. It's annoying, insulting, and frustrating to deal with. I am not bad at this game; being wrong or doing something outside of the scope of how you expect or believe someone should play does not make them bad.
Also, why so many bold tags? If you feel that strongly about emphasis on certain words or phrases you're saying, could you try italics instead? It would make it easier to read.
The indignation levels coming off of EL feel real, which means the odds are he's town or scum who truly doesn't believe my points against him are valid. I'm gonna go ahead and
Unvote
for now and disengage before I get trapped in a tunnel war. I don't have the time or energy to dive into everything you said but I do want to specifically ask: What do you mean then, when saying that someone getting defensive is "odd"? you will, promise Neither I'll hold you to that, because at that point I don't see it. Cool, Rodemy is town. (For this post and the entire back and forth with Lurker)
@BlueEclipse: Regarding post 35 and Lurker's serious vote, I'd rank it as slightly more likely to come from scum than town, but it's a small thing when analyzing Lurker.
I'm still reading sporadically, just waiting for some free time to post thoughts. Summer vacation with a 7 year old, 5 year old, and 10 month old is... a bit hectic.
@Shadow, when you first mentiomed chainsawing, you said, "You're so sure I am town..." But if he was scum, of course he would be sure if you were town... barring some third party shenanigans that I doubt this game has. Could you explain why you wrote it in that particular way?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
@Karabakazme, who else, if anyone, do you think has shown hesitation in this game?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
He actually calls Eternal out in one of them (67) on the same thing I was seeing in him, though I see what Eternal was doing as a bit different. And then Rodemy did it just so blatantly in his notes post. So now I'm forced to wonder if that's just a normal thing when phases are this long. It seems really exploitable for scum if that's just a part of the meta. Will have to do some pondering on this.
Latin has a way of assuming peoples intentions that just... seems so innocent. It's kind of adorable actually. And I think it comes from town.
Blues' questions seem largely to be busywork.
Unvote, Vote Jey K
Mod Note: You do not have to unvote in order to move your vote. In fact, your vote is more likely to be syntactically correct if you don't unvote first.
Shadow and I had the same thoughts in regards to EL's reaction to my question, id est, we both thought the question was NAI and we weren't sure why EL got scumvibes from it. I voted Killjoy because it seemed somewhat odd to me that he gives three reads, two town reads, one scum read, all with no explanation, and then he unvotes without revoting the person he just gave a scumread for. That was the original reason, now I'm somewhat confused on why he's witholding explanations for those reads because obviously as time progresses, and people post more in the thread, those reads are liable to change. I was just curious as to how he got those reads at that time.
How much time exactly? Reads can change, they're dynamic entities, you don't have to be dead certain of a read before you put it in the thread, in fact I doubt a majority of the people who gave reads page 1 were.
I think there's enough material to form cohesive reads on both EL and Shadow so far, but that's just me.
What do you make of Pa's #107?
You give a couple very large hypotheticals at the end of your post here that don't end with you taking a real stance with your read on me.
Please explain where you think I'm pocketing Fett.
Additionally, I don't believe him that he voted because ELs vote felt forced, like all votes around there are forced. I think it's more likely an excuse he put down that sounds good on it's face.
Okay so EL, you have to slow down just a touch. Reading the last couple pages I found myself unintentionally skimming your posts because you were just arguing the smallest details and bringing people down. I personally will vouch for shadows skill after steamrolling me one game as scum, and bussing my ass so hard the next that he carried us to victory. Let's all try to find scum together and not mire the thread down in discussions that aren't going to get us there.
Side note, I think EL and Shadow are both likely town after that back and forth.
@EL you made an interesting statement, why would you try to pocket me? I am most certainly not the best or most vocal player, so what would it gain you to successfully pocket me?
"Go home Rodemy you're drunk ...oh wait"
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@EternalLurker Yeah and he won that game
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Aside; I just realized you do the same 'three dashes' separator thing I do while I was quoting your post
On topic, as to why I think it's a scum dialogue, I don't think the dialogue is scummy so I can't tell you that; it's just the feel I get from both players individually.
I don't think the other town claims have a lack of merit. I see where they're coming from, but as someone who consistently plays anti-meta or meta-breaking in whatever competitive event I'm part of, meta town behavior =/= guaranteed town. You can ask, 'Why would scum EternalLuker do X, Y and Z?' and the answer would be 'Well, it made you think he was town didn't it?'
It's early enough in the game that this type of analysis won't immediately be useful; but don't confuse that with 'never' useful or 'shouldn't be done'.
It's not an OMGUS, it was to encourage him take my questions seriously, which he actually pointed out later.
I bring it up since I post stream-of-consciousness. I try to send the message of 'nothing to hide' when I just post my honest thoughts and people are always welcome to ask questions. The context was Study Latin asked me to explain my reads and all I can do is 'lolidk'. It'll come to me later. Sure it's bound to raise a few eyebrows but if I get the ball rolling and people end up connecting the dots putting into words what I cannot physically cannot grasp besides my own instinct it works out.
TL;DR I have no idea why I don't like shadowlancerx I'll try to re-read and figure it out but I'm certain it'll suck.
As for the rest of your post for specific people, it reads reminiscent of the type of flow someone on the scum team would give, but I don't get bad feelings about it. Maybe this is mostly a town-way of doing things and my inexperience is creating a false bias.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
I knew something about that post didn't feel right.
Thanks for voting me, I'll post something more substantial later today
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...I hate that I like this response. It breaks my confidence in my bad feelings about you
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Of course. (When do I say things without reasons? ) Anak's post #34 complained about the end of RVS, for which I was primarily responsible, yet he simultaneously voted against the only person who was voting for me at the time, with no explanation. As Mafia (and not knowing Anak enough to hypothesize in more depth about his second post of the game), I would probably have interpreted that as him joking about being upset, while truthfully approving of my actions. That'd make him an easy pocket.
Same post (his only non-RVS post, so obviously that's the one). It looked like the beginning of an attempt to pocket me, since -- as the main person who pushed us out of RVS, in a meta even more horrifically hostile to that than I'd initially expected -- he probably realized I would either weather the inevitable wagon and come out as a strong Town read or just get lynched at the end of Day One, and in either case he'd get Town cred for backing me.
Your foundational assumption there is incorrect. Why do I have to consider someone to be Town in order to acknowledge good reasoning for a vote? Bussing happens. If the reasoning is iffy, my read on the person certainly matters, but if the reasoning is solid, then the person delivering it is irrelevant.
But yes, I wasn't yet scum-reading shadow at the time of post #39 (which is what the post you're discussing was referencing).
People take things so ******* personally here (unless it comes from people who are established members of the community, which shows how inconsistent tonal interpretations can be). If someone makes a suboptimal play, I'm going to state plainly that it's a suboptimal play, because that can potentially be scum behavior and ignoring it would be horribly irresponsible. If there's disagreement on that front, tell me why you think it is actually a good play instead of just railing against any sort of criticism in general, and I'll be perfectly open to having that discussion.
I don't normally want to drown people in quote-walls; it doesn't always make for good discussion (as Anak rightfully pointed out in #111). But you quote-walled me first, so I figured you wanted that format...?
Latin's post #21 was odd because he was quoting and replying to my post #20, in which I very clearly stated that the question was a "bad idea" that "seemed logical on the surface"...nothing about it being blatantly scummy behavior. Yet his response was "You extrapolated the scummiest thing I could do from asking a question like that", which was obviously not what I was doing, as his very quote indicated. Twisting my words to make it seem like I was attacking him could've been an overreaction from a hyper-defensive Townie, or it could've been an initiation of an OMGUS attempt by scum. I'm coming to the conclusion that it was the former, but at the time it was most certainly "odd".
Answered this in the second paragraph of this post, but also, I don't generally pocket the most vocal player (and I don't know you well enough to judge whether or not you're the "best", so that's not a consideration). Everything obviously depends on the circumstances, but I'm more likely to shoot rather than pocket the most vocal player -- perhaps partially because I tend to be the most vocal player as Town, but mostly because consistently silencing the loudest voice tends to reduce Town's willingness to communicate, which is good for scum.
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Might as well update the current reads list. Grouped for convenience; it's still a top=Town to bottom=Mafia list as normal.
Making me happy:
Study Latin: Has consistently responded well to being pressured.
Jey K: Solid posts so far, definite feeling of being unaligned with everyone. (especially me D: )
Kabazame: Different axioms, but consistent logic from them.
I have no idea how to read this:
Anaklusmos: slight scum ping early, but recent post felt totally NAI to me, so Iunno yet
Tubba Fett: what is this even
Haven't posted ***** thus far; note to self, don't let them lurk:
Rhand
Zionite
Toastboy
Vaimes (on V/LA atm)
LnGrrrR (has posted a little but it's very content-light, which is a problem)
Being too vague:
Killjoy: At least acknowledges that he should be explaining his reads, but that's not much consolation.
Pa Tennis: Seems to be giving more depth to his reads now, but I'm not sold yet.
Not making me happy
Rodemy/Shadowlancer: "test the 'EL is scum' wagon...no one else agrees? whoops, run awaaaaaaay"
BluesEclipse: hoo boy, see below
Given that...
Vote: BluesEclipse
This feels like he's trying to follow my Town playbook in order to ingratiate himself. "Oh, hey, EL's starting to Town-read Latin, who's been mostly asking questions. Let me write up a question-wall. Oh, but wait, in post #89 EL criticizes Latin for not offering his own opinions instead of just questions. Let me throw in a half-hearted final paragraph about my own opinions, in which I basically say everyone is null to me...but that I'm defaulting to Mafia reads instead of Town reads, so that everyone is still available as a lynch target. Hm, let me seem less scummy by even throwing in a Town read of Latin -- and then hedge that read as hard as possible with a conspiracy theory."
yeah, easily the scummiest post in the entire thread
Couple of questions:
*what is the "thing"?
*Point out Latin assuming peoples intentions
*Where the hell did that jey vote come from?
vote Pa Tennis
Also who are your scum budddies?
However, you may have something on point with Eclipse's doubt towards my slot at the end of that post.
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@Shadow, what did you take away from BE's #102?
RVS seems pointless to me, although I am new here. As for why it's beneficial to scum, if everyone is voting randomly than it's easy for scum to just play along and fit in with the crowd, whereas when people are actually debating points and making reads scum has to actually provide some content. Basically, it helps scum look like just another face in the crowd.
Study Latin may just be a guy who uses advanced vocabulary, but I don't know that so I'm just trying to get a feel for the players. Vocabulary aside, I think he overreacted to an early vote that didn't really matter. I'm not sure not to put it into words but his reaction felt very nervous, although it's possible he's just worried about being mislynched.
I'm not ruling out that he could be thinking his posts out for those reasons (I'm not even voting him!), I'm just making notes of things I observe and seeing how people react. To be honest, his reaction was pretty good.
I'm guessing you mean me :/ lol
Tubba Fett, but he's new so I'll give him some time to get going
Jey K a little bit. Seems hesitant to push reads by mentioning that he often has good reads but doesn't know how to push them. Also says he will "provide something substantial later".
Of course, hesitation =/= scum, but it can be a piece of the puzzle in building a good read!
@Pa Tennis: I do have reasons for the questions I ask. Specifically, I'm trying to build an understanding of how people are thinking, and what is driving their logic. That being said, why the vote on Jey? Again, you are putting a vote out there with no rationale provided at all, so I'm curious as to what's making you want to vote the way you are. Also, could you elaborate on what you meant when you referred to Latin as a 'keystone read'? I'm still not understanding that part.
@Study Latin: Knowing who the 'best' scum player here is doesn't really answer those other questions, as they would come down more to the playstyles of the individuals who rolled scum rather than the playstyle or experience of the best scum player.
For the question of how long it takes for me to begin forming proper reads, I generally won't have much in that regard within the first 24-48 hours of the game (depending on how frequently I can slip onto the site from work and read over things), simply due to time constraints.
And Pa's #107 at least answered the question for why he voted Shadow, though I'm hoping it's not going to be a pattern for him to throw votes at people with no apparent reasoning behind them. That he calls my questions busywork is annoying, given that it's intended to get people to elaborate on their concerns and thought processes (though I was catching up on an entire day's worth of posting at once, so it was admittedly somewhat scattered).
My concerns with my town read on you were largely for three reasons. First, the possible pocketing of Fett. Though this is more due to his actions than yours, I feel that you should be encouraging him to form his own conclusions based on the facts - he seems very willing to accept your explanation of another player's posts rather than asking those players for clarification directly, and a scum player could easily be taking advantage of that. It means that I'm likely to scrutinize your responses to him a bit further, both because of possible pocketing and because if he is simply accepting your reads rather than requesting additional details from the player who made the post and forming his own reads, it puts you in the position of easily influencing a second vote. This is also why my comment to Fett was directing him to work towards forming his own leads - if he's willing to simply accept your opinions and take them as his own, you become a more important player regardless of your leanings.
The second concern was your reasoning for the questions about who the best scum player is, and you have at least explained to my satisfaction why it is that you asked those questions (though again, I don't think you would actually have learned what you were hoping to learn with that line of questioning).
Lastly, there is admittedly a bit of paranoia on my part - I am finding your posting style to be very similar to my own, and a part of me is simply hesitant to give you a town lean solely due to the possibility of perspective bias.
@Tubba Fett: See the above for concerns regarding you as well - I understand you are inexperienced with the game, and I am by no means saying that you need to put more trust in me than anyone else. However, by the same token, putting total faith in any individual player is a bad idea, unless they have been mechanically confirmed - consider the possible motivations they may have for a post if they are town, then consider the possible motivations behind the same post if they are scum, when reviewing anyone's posting.
@EternalLurker: The reason for the question wall is because I was catching up on a full day's worth of posts, in a very active game. I did not have the time I would have liked to keep up on things throughout the day and offer responses (work concerns), so I could not participate as actively in the conversation as I would have liked. I am not defaulting to scum reads on anyone, though - I have explained my reasons for the reads on Pa and Killjoy (in both cases, due to the lack of reasoning they're offering for their votes), and I consider everyone else null. And my concerns on Latin are outlined above (and so will not be repeated here), though I understand your concerns for that read.
The "thing", as mentioned, is random voting while holding people accountable for their random votes from the same time period. Still not quite sure what to make of it. Shadow's was more subtle where Rodemy's was blatant. Lurker sort of did it with his "I wouldn't have voted there if it was later" but that struck me as more pushing on what's there when there wasn't much to go on yet.
A keystone read is someone who's alignment helps me figure out more people. As of right now, I think Latin is town. As for what that means, I'll have to get back to you.
Pre-Edit: And his most recent post helps a lot. I have asked questions similarly in the past just to get into someone else's headspace. I like it, I'm happy with where BE is at right now.
I voted Jey for talking about going with her intuition when confronted with actual evidence in 96. But in her latest set of posts she talked through it a little.
I am now voting Blues because the questions he claims help build understanding do not.
first post = nothing
second post = town-reads me and votes shadow without explanation (shadow is pressuring me)
third post = answers my question without actually answering it
fourth post = town-reads me and attacks shadow (shadow is pressuring me)
fifth post = votes JeY K without explanation (JeY K is voting me)
sixth post = copies what I said about Rodemy, holds me to a double-standard by Town-reading me for the same thing for which he's scum-reading other people
seventh post = votes BluesEclipse without explanation (BluesEclipse is my current vote target)
Has there ever been a more textbook case of "Pocket the guy who's about to either get widely Town-read or be lynched"? That's literally every post now, barring the first nothing-post.
Guess you're off the hook for a bit, Blues, since my problem with you was exactly that it seemed like you were pocketing me by copying Latin's style of being Town. But now we have a much more evident pocketing case.
Vote: Pa Tennis
You never explained your jey vote
The post you made right before I voted you had 2 instances of it. One was eternal, the discussion on which went on at great length. The other was vaimes' lack of rvs vote.
I'm currently figuring out what exactly constitutes being random or serious in this meta. I'm currently leaning on you being a middle ground between, say, what eternal was doing which was pushing on things that didn't really matter just because you have nothing better to push on. Whereas Rodemy is actually demanding killjoy explain his read on him while saying it's unexplainable because RVS.
Yeah you did
BluesEclipse's 102 the answer to your question: I don't have 8 votes.
As for the Eternal thing, well like you said, it went on at length already and I don't have more to say about it.
EDIT: INCOMING WALL OF TEXT I DIDN'T REALIZE I'D FIND SO MUCH TO RESPOND TO SORRY I ALSO SPAMMED A LITTLE ;-; I WAS HAVING FUN OKAY
EDIT 2: Oh god it got even longer I'm so sorry
Nothing specific to quote so far, but by post #64 it feels like Shadow's doing a whole 'lot of nothing despite all the posts, and EternalLurker gives me the impression that he has inside information, only something that scum have in a mafia game. I think there's something better to support this later but I haven't gotten there yet. Still reading.
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Kabazame, you said you were new to mafia? Or just new to this forum? If it was before #66, I apologize for a terrible memory, if it's later I'll come back to this.
EDIT: Some of your later posts suggest you've definitely played before.
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Pa Tennis, keep doin' what you're doin'
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Shadow and EL arguing is nothing. There's no content or reads. Nobody is trying to scum-hunt, it's just a pillow fort battle. If one or both are scum, this is excellent fake content.
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@Study Latin your #81: Is there any specific reason you're trying to answer this for the posters of those reads rather than letting them explain themselves? This seems weird to me; I know you're trying to help out a newbie, I suppose, but were you hoping for more? If so, what?
I lol'd
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Suddenly an attack on shadowlancerx from EternalLurker... This is ridiculous. It's going to take someone saying 'lynch me I'm scum' to get me to move my vote. I wouldn't pass this off as pro-town/consider this as doing the town any favors if you paid me. I'm certain there's more stuff like this too.
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This is how I became the last surviving scum in a game before getting PoE'd because I claimed vanilla. I said this already but I don't buy it.
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-lassos- Get over here! (jkhavefunbye)
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In other news, EL re-directed his pillow fort cannons at Rodemy in #93 and posts a whole 'lot more nothing. Error 404: reads and content not found.
Rodemy pillowfort battles back but seems to actually make points, unlike what I'm doing! Thanks Rodemy!
...EL continues the fight! But it was not effective. No points, just defensive banter.
I hate this all over again. I can't help but feel like EternalLurker continues to seem like he has inside knowledge somehow. You wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but it's what I feel.
Also Thanks @Rodemy for dismantling the pillowfort!
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Not re-reading BluesEclipse.
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Shadow posts again in #104, with nothing. Thanks, Shadow!
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After all of this time I still don't know how I should pronounce LnGrrrR.
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Got to Pa Tennis's vote on me; posts feel like they come from a mindset I have. I knew I liked this one.
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All EL seems to be doing after he got the game started is play pillowfort. Sir, I am the one person not accepting your towncred
Oh look, the one person who has been pushing EL as scummy the hardest is one of his favorites. That rubs me all the wrong ways. I feel like I need my play criticized as awful before I get validated or something ;\
And you know, I was going to compliment EL that despite my scummy vibe from him he avoided all low-hanging fruit (including me) until BluesEclipse rolled around. It seemed like he was playing more carefully than that, and it's possible now the bussing has just begun (since I'm not confident in BluesEclipse's post either), but more posts are required before something comes from this interaction.
There's a difference between can't explain and won't explain. I'm not hesitating to do anything, I'm just bad. With your second comment, I work full time as a software developer, and being at work all day... I'm sure you can do the math. I didn't actually think I'd have to justify that sentence.
Aside: I'm a girl
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Lol BluesEclipse is the second person to question Pa's vote on me; why am I the only person who understands why they did it?
The post they made doesn't give me any additional confidence.
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ROFLMAO
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I'm not going to say EternalLurker's vote on Pa Tennis seems awful, because he makes a good point, but I'm going to point out that my scummiest read is voting my towniest read.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
This needs to be unburied from the megapost. Does anyone find this reaction to a "potential light scumread" 40 posts in to a game reasonable? Especially coming from someone who purports to believe RVS doesn't mean anything.
More importantly, does your intuition tell you what inside information eternal has?
Not quite.
That he knows alignments, aka something only Scum can know.
I'll break that down. So it's not screaming to me that he knows alignments, but I can't shake the feeling that he knows something and is holding back the entire time he posts. So I come at it from the other side: What's the only possible thing that a player can have a general sense of inside info for in mafia?
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Post #138 is just...all over the place.
"Good job avoiding targeting low-hanging fruit like me!" literally one sentence after "EL's Town-read of me rubs me all the wrong ways"...whether I scum-read you or Town-read you, you're saying you'll interpret either option as a scum-tell; that's the textbook definition of a tunnel
"EL doesn't like BluesEclipse's posts; that's scummy cuz BE is low-hanging fruit", followed by "I don't like either of BE's posts"...so it's just not okay when I do it? again, the tunnel is strong with this one
claiming that Pa Tennis has the same mindset as you and is your towniest read...while ignoring that he's Town-reading me while you've been entirely anti-me, so clearly your mindsets are nothing alike
referring to shadow's post #104 as "nothing", when you specifically quoted that exact post earlier and gushed over it...but of course this time you're looking at it while assuming shadow vs me is SvS, so you reinterpret it to fit your narrative of shadow being scummy
straight-up admitting that you're only interpreting my posts a certain way because you're already tunneled ("you wouldn't normally gather that from a statement like this, but trust my inexplicable gut feelings please")
(-.-)
At least you've just done an excellent job convincing me that shadow is probably Town (although I'm still quite iffy about how Rodemy jumped on board the 1-man wagon that shadow started).
This is why playing on "gut feelings" is a BadIdea: it makes actual debate impossible (which is terrible for Town) because no one can respond seriously to "you give me BAD VIBES man", and it's just...prone to stuff like this, where you reinterpret everything you read to fit your feelings instead of forming your beliefs from what you're reading.
Annnnnd scum
vote Jey K
@ Kabazame
I'm waffling here, to be honest. You didn't want to vote randomly, which seemed town, but aside from some casual mudslinging (I.e. Study Latin) you don't seem to be really pushing anything/anyone. Looking at both of those actions has me wondering if you're just trying to fly under the radar.
@ JeY
I'm torn on the Eternal question. I've been getting town vibes because he seems to be putting in the work, but it's almost like he's putting in too much. Can you elaborate on your "pillow-fort" theory?
@ Blues
I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that I'm trusting anyone player more than another. My posts asking for clarity were addressed to everyone, and in some cases, seconded by others curious about the same things. I'll be grateful and appreciative of any help I receive, but I understand that anyone could have an ulterior motive for doing so.
Debate is impossible, yet you responded to me, and here I am able to respond to you, right?
So here's my response to you: You're putting a lot of words in my mouth and I'm made to feel bad for a tunnel, if I'm reading what you're writing, so I can get off your case? Nobody wants to be lynched, so advising me to drop a tunnel isn't indicative of alignment, so let's look at why;
You're making a lot of claims that I'm bending statements to fit my narrative. I would ask to see your exact interpretation but I think that doesn't add anything, I would just be contributing to pillowforting.
Example: I didn't say I interpreted your vote as scummy, I was stating an observation, Play X is voting player Y. You and I are not the only players in this game.
Example 2:
That's not what I said in the slightest.
So... I'm going to lay down a factoid about me: I mean exactly what I say. Everything I type is meant to be taken face-value, exactly what it says on the tin. As soon as you start drawing false conclusions about what I say versus what I mean, I'm growing extra suspicious. I've planted corn, and you're expecting it to grow into pumpkins.
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Hi Toastboy! I like your post. I'm going to check out Kabazame more in-depth tomorrow.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
@Rodemy roflmao
@Tubba Fett Once EternalLurker started stirring up some trouble and getting immediate towncred, all he's done since is defend himself against people. Scum love to coast, defending yourself doesn't really take much effort and it doesn't scum-hunt.
@EternalLurker there's a big difference between "Believes strongly to be scum" and "Will never believe to be anything except scum". The last few times I strongly believed someone was scum, they were. I mean, there was this one time I tunneled Xyre really hard because of a dream I had, but I was still able to be convinced he was town.
Also pronouns please @_@
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
I just wanna know where the "light" scumread comes from. To me it looks like it could be an attempt to jump on a wagon of mine if it should occur.
I do at times get lynched d1, and killjoy has seen it.
But it's okay; you're just gonna tell me I'm somehow misinterpreting your words that you just said I was supposed to take at face value under all circumstances.
It's incredibly unfortunate that I still think you're probably Town, because you're really doing your best not to act like it.
Jeez, the flood of contradictions oozing from your posts is really melting through my Town-read of you.