@terry I figured him posting about the kraken instilling fear and anxiet6 in us RIGHT AFTER WE RECIEVED A NO-FLIP was a good indicator. At least that's how i figured.
Where did you get the info that it causes targeting troubles?
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Did anybody habe problems targeting last night? I think joe might have slipped.
unvote vote Terry
Shadow and DV both said they were redirected also, but my PM specifically attributes it to the Kraken. I'm kind of thinking it was a one-shot activated during the day, most likely by Davy Jones if flavor has anything to do with it. I'm pretty sure that was Az.
Feeling town from Rodemy. The lack of attention to the game... I feel that scum have to be more careful with their words and actions. I get a very genuine stream-of-consciousness read here.
Feeling town from Rodemy. The lack of attention to the game... I feel that scum have to be more careful with their words and actions. I get a very genuine stream-of-consciousness read here.
For future reference, this is not a tell, trust me. I am absent minded on both sides
Thoughts on az being the only person able to successfully target?
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Feeling town from Rodemy. The lack of attention to the game... I feel that scum have to be more careful with their words and actions. I get a very genuine stream-of-consciousness read here.
For future reference, this is not a tell, trust me. I am absent minded on both sides
Thoughts on az being the only person able to successfully target?
Can confirm. He literally botched his own fake claim in the scum game he just played.
As far as Az successfully targeting; that is actually very peculiar.
@Az: do you have anything in your role that stipulates you having magical powers that cause you not to be affected by abilities (prior to you gaining 2 souls)?
Feeling town from Rodemy. The lack of attention to the game... I feel that scum have to be more careful with their words and actions. I get a very genuine stream-of-consciousness read here.
For future reference, this is not a tell, trust me. I am absent minded on both sides
Okay, fair, but then mentioning that is also townie.
Thoughts on az being the only person able to successfully target?
Want him to answer that himself before I put thoughts into the thread.
Did anybody habe problems targeting last night? I think joe might have slipped.
unvote vote Terry
Shadow and DV both said they were redirected also, but my PM specifically attributes it to the Kraken. I'm kind of thinking it was a one-shot activated during the day, most likely by Davy Jones if flavor has anything to do with it. I'm pretty sure that was Az.
VOTE: Az
@shadow and d_v
Did your pm's do the same?
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Every time I try to convince myself to read D1 I lose motivation the second I remember we don't have flips.
@ArchmageEternal What about Dota making a case on you is opportunistic? Ironic sure, but irony isn't scummy. You weren't under any real pressure when Dota made his post.
Every time I try to convince myself to read D1 I lose motivation the second I remember we don't have flips.
@ArchmageEternal What about Dota making a case on you is opportunistic? Ironic sure, but irony isn't scummy. You weren't under any real pressure when Dota made his post.
That's the thing, it's not a case. It's look, low hanging fruit. Let's get him!
Feeling town from Rodemy. The lack of attention to the game... I feel that scum have to be more careful with their words and actions. I get a very genuine stream-of-consciousness read here.
For future reference, this is not a tell, trust me. I am absent minded on both sides
Thoughts on az being the only person able to successfully target?
Can confirm. He literally botched his own fake claim in the scum game he just played.
ODD AND EVEN ARE HARD THINGS TO KEEP TRACK OF, OKAY?! :cry:
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Third, everyone should go and read the 17 posts made by Archmage Eternal. He has done nothing constructive in this game: Day 1
So according to you we should also be voting you for your predecessors activity.
Funny you mention me having a PR, curious as to what it is huh? Just ask?
I can't speak for Nancy as to why they posted as little as they did or why they replaced, so it's a moot point. And how about you actually point out why I'm wrong about you rather than just trying to swing it back at me because of what someone else did/didn't do...
I don't care about you having a PR or not, it's just the way in which you brought it up. If it was just to confirm Az's role then why mention that you should have thought of it Day 1? You could have just asked him to target you. Why did you soft claim power?
@shadow
you are welcome to go back to where I talked about it yesterday. I have nothing new.
@dota
I appreciate a new wind blowing in. And he could totally be scum. But what do you think of anyone else?
Did you read the whole game or just archmage iso?
I subscribed to the thread when it opened since I had added my name to the replacement list, and have skimmed along as it has progressed. Two things have been bugging me for a while now 1) Az's neutral claim and offer to work with town. I've seen him do it before(and I'm sure it was in exactly the same way), and I think it was mind screw but when I checked his claim there it differs in a number of ways. It might be an older game that I'm thinking of but it would take forever to run through all his games to confirm what I vaguely recall. Hence why I asked specifically about MS, to see how he reacted. 2) Archmage shows up here and there but never seems to do much, yet he is largely ignored. And then Kazin said this about him:
Archmage Eternal: Town Lean - Archmage has always been quick to jump on good points, answer in a way that feels natural, presented himself in a way that feels very townie focused.
which I just could not see. Which is why I started with a read on AE, my top suspect.
@DOtA concidering the game we were in was haiku, my tone? Really?
It's more of a gut read than a specific "compare post X to post Y". I was just in a game with you as scum, yes it was haiku but we all had the same posting restriction. It was easy enough to get a feel for who was what as though it was a normal game.
There's been a fair amount of speculation as to what is happening there, it has been proven that we can't vote for the Kraken, and it has also been theorised that Rodemy has some very strange inclinations towards mythical wildlife... It is definitely something that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later but as of this moment we have very little to go on. Is it an activated ability of a player? Passive? Only one person (or the scum team) knows. Too much hypothesizing about the Kraken deflects us from hunting scum, and gives players a cover of activity to hide behind.
Nancy's replacement feels so lackluster. Immediately going after the lowest hanging fruit with a horrible post filled with IIOA.
@Dotarchon: What do you think of DBS and her lynch.
I probably would have voted for DBS as well had I been in the game at that point. As for the role, it sounds more like an inventor type of thing rather than just a 1-shot Doc as she claimed. Like she might have had a few 1-shots to dish out. But then why not claim so? Until we actually have the full flip it's another discussion that detracts from the here and now.
Never got to RVS so Vote: KamikazeArchon for sharing a part of my name!
Unvote
First off, we're not lynching Az, unless there is damn solid reasoning to do so. "Lol Neutral" is not a solid reason. Especially since Rodemy has confirmed the existence of a neutral in this game. "But who says Rodemy is town?" I do. I've just finished a game with scum Rod and there is a MASSIVE difference in tone/behaviour compared. I might be wrong (Lord knows I have been often enough in the past) but for now I see no reason to doubt his claim.
Secondly, @Az, two questions:
1) How would you compare your approach here to the approach you took in Mind Screw?
2) Why Rodemy?
Third, everyone should go and read the 17 posts made by Archmage Eternal. He has done nothing constructive in this game: Day 1
Post 1 - Accuses KA of fear mongering. Never goes further into this. Also mentions a flaw in KA's reasoning but never points out what it is. Confusing reponse to Shadow voting Az and not wanting a neutral to survive past day 1.
Post 2 - Responds to Vezok voting for Az, then votes for Rodemy for voting for Az with a one word explanation: "Horrible".
Post 3 - Asks Terry about Grapefruit. Never follows up on this.
Post 4 - Filler
Post 5 - Tells Vezok to forget Az and look elsewhere. That is all.
Post 6 - Asks Az to vote for Rodemy, also willing to vote for Vezok.
Post 7 - Catchup promise after 3 days absent. Will give benefit of doubt though, came down with flu.
Post 8 - Basic explanation to Tom about whyvote is on Rodemy. Wonders why Rod not in claim range yet.
Post 9 - Quotes DBS and shades them for voting for him, when he was bottom of DBS townlean pile. DBS explains the vote in the quoted posts though. First time DBS is mentioned at all by AE, never engaged with them while they were both voting for Rod.
Post 10 - Asks DBS a question about something they said about AE/Rod, never follows up on this despite DBS responding to the question. Asks if DBS thinks Rod is scum, even though DBS had made several posts about Rod and had him at the bottom of their T/S list.
Post 11 - Questions Kazin's townread of him. Responds to Rodemy's argument with Vezok with a flawed statement
Post 12 - Moves vote from Rodemy to DBS to join wagon, expresses townread of tom as reason. Quotes a votecount instead of tom's reasoning for voting there. Fifth on the wagon, requires eight to lynch. No further posts on day 1, DBS is lynch. Day 2
Post 13 - Speculates DBS(dead) and Rhand(dead) roles, hints at Rhand being the NK for soft counterclaiming DBS. Accuses Kazin of fear mongering. Asks about Kazin's role despite the answer being right there in the quoted post.
Post 14 - Quotes two posts of Rhand's. The first is Rhand wanting to look into the same players that Terry does (Nancy/Nobue/Vezok) and the second is Rhand saying he believes DBS's claim. Inexplicably cuts out the part of the quote that gives it context though. Asks general question about number of Town/Scum/Neutrals. Rodemy had claimed census role by this point.
Post15 - "Don't lynch Az because Neutral"
Post 16 - Admits to having missed Rodemy's post about the faction numbers, but asks if it's speculation instead of going back to read the posts himself.
Post 17 - Hints at PR by asking Az to target him with soul-steal, "should have thought of this Day 1"
So not only have they done nothing remotely resembling scumhunting, but every vote they have made or opinion expressed on a player has been setup in such a way as to be able to say, "Oh but X player was also saying this..." Apart from the initial Rodemy vote that was never really delved into.
Vote: Archmage Eternal
Welcome to the Ship.. Now you just posted a case on AME based on the observation that he did nothing in his 17 posts. Well my friend, Nancy Drew did less than that. And why are we not lynching Az? He does nothing to help our wincon and if anything he makes us lose.
Lynching a Neutral does nothing to help town win, unless said neutral is a direct threat to town (like a SK). I'd much rather have scum waste a night kill on a neutral, although that would either require the neutral to be a serious threat to their longevity or of they were looking to set up a mislynch on town. Either way, make them do the dirty work so we can focus on using the lynch trying to kill actual scum.
Idk why. His townclear of me based on tone feels.. weird. The tone of haiku mafia wasn't that different than here.
Dota can you point out the differences? I'm trying to see if you actually see something or are just throwing a townclear out there for towniepoints
As I said above it's a gut read that I could be wrong about. I was completely wrong about Shadow there, and kept waffling back and forth between a seriously wacky conspiracy theory and doubting the hell out of myself. I'm having a similar issue here, although that is also clouded by the fact that there have been others who are uncertain on Shadow. I need to do a proper reread now that I've joined the game. But not once during my initial read/skim along did I think of you anywhere lower than a townlean.
The first is that we should be finding specifically the Kraken source and taking it out.
The second is that the Kraken being permanent short of lynches/kills may be overpowered, especially combined with what appears to be a targeting randomizer. It is quite possible that the Kraken has a built-in finite duration.
I think I should mention I'm currently using "kraken" and "thing hiding alignment flips" interchangeably; I suppose it's possible they're separate but that seems at least somewhat unlikely.
Fortunately, no matter what, we can assume that the source of the Kraken is scum, so normal scumhunting can work. It's just, effectively, an extended D1.
I remain happy with a D_V lynch but am willing to wait until more people come around on that. Obviously my reasoning wasn't convincing enough in D1 and I don't have more to add, so I'm not going to waste my time.
The final bit of this especially. I'm waiting to see how D_V handles the Day 2 and what things come about from it. I've been trying to hold a more objective read on others, but my read on him hasn't changed in the least as of yet. But with no new evidence to add, it feels moot to push on that button. The Az threat is one that continually becomes more of a threat... and sometimes the problem of the "iceberg" on the horizon is that if you don't correct early, you hit it.... What do they say about icebergs? You only see 10% of them? So Tom's analogy of him being an iceberg is apt in my opinion... He's the kind of role that if it's not dealt with early, it becomes very hard to deal with later... That said, DoTa has been... well... I thought the post was insightful originally, and got me focusing on someone who I hadn't paid a -ton- of attention to... and got me looking, but I could see where others are coming from on the points and how he might have gotten there.
@DoTArchon: Care to give a bit more in depth reads on others?
I currently have some our of game issues that stand in the way of a proper readthrough/analysis. My daytime data plan has run out until 1st March, so I either have to read/post while at work(difficult) or between midnight and 5am when the "bonus" data is available(also difficult). I will put thoughts out on more players as I have time/capability to do so.
Well I was sort waiting for him to keep going but everyone stepping all over that and telling him exactly what he needs to say...
Dota blew in here trying to cause damage. It's not confused town working in. There's no "wtf iso no flips" there's no look at how his slot's been treated which is, like, where you start replacing in for lurker town?
So... Yeah I think there's a decent chance he's just that scum wind trying to do some damage with a "weakened" slot.
HOWEVER
I've seen dota trying to be a town leader. He blew strong in Russian roulette especially. Could have seen that as a start to a session that's includes a wider view of the whole.
But looking less likely after dropping that and leaving.
unvote
Vote: dotarchon
Impress me
What more can I add about the no flips? It's all in the past and has been discussed already. Sure, maybe somebody let something slip that shows they have a bit more info than they should but I'm not the only player here, if others haven't spotted it yet the odds that I will are not likely. Same point I made about the Kraken above. It doesn't help to catch scum so dragging it out only helps scum hide behind a safe to discuss topic.
Nancy looked scummy, had I replaced into a different slot I would most likely have advocated lynching the slot. But I now have the role pm and knowledge I did not have before. Apologising for my predecessor doesn't do anything to help me. Discussing why I think they lurked, posted little and then replaced doesn't help me. Trying to catch scum helps me. Speaking of which, what do you think of my case on AE, and the fact that his only defense is to point out that Nancy did "less" than him?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It should read as two seperate points: a quick joke about your attempt and then saying that the Karakenshould be dealt with sooner rather than later. Not that we should deal with your proclivities sooner rather than later
It should read as two seperate points: a quick joke about your attempt and then saying that the Karakenshould be dealt with sooner rather than later. Not that we should deal with your proclivities sooner rather than later
Still waiting for d_v and Shadow to answer my question. As well as AZ.
Also: obv i want it dead because it rejected my advances >:[
So, anybody else wanna claim their ability worked/ redirected last night? Could help.
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what the **** are we at L-2 at az. No. This is not correct use of this Day. Put that ***** back on Dota.
Also, are those vote counts correct? Because if so, two people have their votes blanked. Hoping that's just a typo.
It should read as two seperate points: a quick joke about your attempt and then saying that the Karakenshould be dealt with sooner rather than later. Not that we should deal with your proclivities sooner rather than later
Still waiting for d_v and Shadow to answer my question. As well as AZ.
Also: obv i want it dead because it rejected my advances >:[
So, anybody else wanna claim their ability worked/ redirected last night? Could help.
Rod I think you're town but this PR fishing is anti-town and needs to stop. I think two people confirming it should be enough to accept it at face value for now. Let's not out anyone else.
what the **** are we at L-2 at az. No. This is not correct use of this Day. Put that ***** back on Dota.
Also, are those vote counts correct? Because if so, two people have their votes blanked. Hoping that's just a typo.
Strongly agree with this. Az isn't a threat right now. Dota still hasn't said much, other than lynch AE because Kazin (who is sliped town) gave AE an unearned town lean. (Though I can emphazise with it being hard to say much when you have a very limited access window to play in.) That is bonkers.
@Dota do you think Kazin is scum with AE? I don't see the connective tissue for that read at all. Why does Kazin town leaning AE (who definitely didn't earn it) make AE scum when Kazin is >90% to be town?
Since I ended up going through some old games today,
I'll just say I think something is off with AE.
Dota brought it up, but I'm 90% certain that AE shouldn't have accepted that Azreal claim at all. Instead he choose to largely ignore the claim.
Also I agree with Rodemy.
Azreal seems to have targeted him specifically.
That seems no bueno.
Hypothesis.
There is either a Bullet Proof, Doctorm or RB in the game.
That player either got randomly hit by a kill or doctor protected or the RB hit mafia.
The other kill belongs to either the neutral or mafia.
If the Random was from the mafia then they wouldn't have shot it because it would have hit one of their own.
What do we gain from this knowledge?
The random effect did not come from mafia.
Either A)
The random effect came from the mafia and they holstered their shot.
Otherwise they have the potential to shoot themselves.
Which means that there is either a Vig or Azreal shot someone.
or B)
It didn't come from mafia.
This isn't a town ability.
So it can only come from the neutral.
For there to only be one kill there has to be a BulletProof, Doctor or a RB in the game(Probably at least two) there could be a jailer or variants otherwise as well.
One of the players in the game was protected or a kill was randomly blocked.
The other kill belongs to the remaining neutral/mafia or vig.
Rodemy being able to know there is a neutral in the game indicates that Iso wants us to know the neutral is in the game. Why? Because the neutral is dangerous and needs to be dealt with.
I think the that Azreal's specific claim is BS. I think some of the statements he has made are dangerous, his play is akin to that of Mind Screw and other neutral games that he has played and I think his offer to work with either alignment is silly.
I think Azreal planned to take this to end game. Offer his allegiance to scum and then try and pick them off in the end game with what ever soul powers he has. I'd go as far as to say that Azreal's plan reminds me of this very old game https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/446737-sword-of-truth-mafia-game-over-the-end-of-magic?page=38
I could see AE and Terry as a team due to one onteractionnon particular, plus terry's unapologetically pure set up speculation vote abomination, plus his demeanor being altered in scum indocative direction as from zero escape.
No, I do not have any secret powers regarding randomness.
@shadow
you are welcome to go back to where I talked about it yesterday. I have nothing new.
@dota
I appreciate a new wind blowing in. And he could totally be scum. But what do you think of anyone else?
Did you read the whole game or just archmage iso?
I subscribed to the thread when it opened since I had added my name to the replacement list, and have skimmed along as it has progressed. Two things have been bugging me for a while now 1) Az's neutral claim and offer to work with town. I've seen him do it before(and I'm sure it was in exactly the same way), and I think it was mind screw but when I checked his claim there it differs in a number of ways. It might be an older game that I'm thinking of but it would take forever to run through all his games to confirm what I vaguely recall. Hence why I asked specifically about MS, to see how he reacted. 2) Archmage shows up here and there but never seems to do much, yet he is largely ignored. And then Kazin said this about him:
Archmage Eternal: Town Lean - Archmage has always been quick to jump on good points, answer in a way that feels natural, presented himself in a way that feels very townie focused.
which I just could not see. Which is why I started with a read on AE, my top suspect.
I just want to point this out in context. This is a completely unnatural progression. The natural progression would be to vote Kazin for making a read you don't think makes sense. Or to at least question him. Not to go and without mentioning Kazin at all make a giant case against AE.
@Dota Starting your read on AE because of something he didn't do is just really strange to me.
@DV why can't an ability that scrambles targeting and might make mafia shoot mafia be a town ability? Your conclusion on Rod is something that smells right when you first think about it, but given that we don't have flips this game it kind of serves an obvious purpose other than altering to the presence of a neutral. Still not interested at all in lynching Az.
The Kraken is clearly not a town ability. Someone would've claimed it by now.
I'm liking dotarchon less and less. The last big post seemed like he was coached.
@grape: Can you rephrase #1033? I'm having trouble understanding what you meant.
Would someone have necessarily claimed it as town? I don't think I believe that.
As for restating the part referring to Dota is saying that Dota suspected AE because Kazin gave him an unearned town read. Dota literally states that Kazin giving a bad town read is what inspired him to case AE. That makes no sense to me. My reaction would be to A: make a case against Kazin or B: talk to Kazin about that. Jumping to to C: Make a case against the third part feels like there is an agenda.
For the part directed at DV I was disagreeing with his conclusion. I don't think we can entirely rule out that the Kraken is a town ability and a scum ability. His case that it can't be scum is that it scrambles the NK targets potentially making scum target a buddy. This strikes me as making it a interesting if unlikely town ability.
I also disagree with his point that Rod's role suggests that Az is a threat. It makes sense at first blush to me, but then I remembered that this game has no flips and his role makes perfect sense in that environment (without it indicating that Az is a threat).
Either A)
The random effect came from the mafia and they holstered their shot.
Otherwise they have the potential to shoot themselves.
Which means that there is either a Vig or Azreal shot someone.
or B)
It didn't come from mafia.
This isn't a town ability.
So it can only come from the neutral.
It's quite likely the random effect just doesn't affect the nightkill. Possibly doesn't affect scum at all. In fact, if it's specifically "all town are randomized" that would make perfect sense as a scum ability plus explain why Az's ability didn't get redirected.
Rodemy being able to know there is a neutral in the game indicates that Iso wants us to know the neutral is in the game. Why? Because the neutral is dangerous and needs to be dealt with.
Rodemy is obviously intended to counter the reveal-blocking ability. If he hadn't decided to pop the ability yesterday, and had it available today, it would have been much more powerful. (No shade to Rodemy here; there was no way to predict this kind of thing happening.)
How do we know that Az intended to target Rod? Feels like people are basing speculation on that when there is no reason to think he meant to target him.
How do we know that Az intended to target Rod? Feels like people are basing speculation on that when there is no reason to think he meant to target him.
@Az did you intend to target Rodemy?
Dude, he gave reason as to why he targeted me.
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Sounds to me like you are against this lynch because you think it makes you sound towny. You defend az, yet you havent read his posts. You see him as "not a threat" soley because he is a nuetral.
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@Rodemy: yes, my role specifically says that the Kraken’s presence messed with my targeting ability.
@DV: I’m almost wondering if it was a random affect at all, rather than us being forced to target someone, but we would have to confer who we were directed to in order to theorize deeper on that, and I’m not sure now is the time for that.
@Grapefruit: If Az wasn’t affected by the redirection that he’s possibly not revealing everything to us, which makes him lose some credibility. To say he’s not a threat is not strictly false, but something is definitely awry here.
@Everyone: I know this is slightly fishing, but I think it’s valuable to figuring out the game so I’m going to ask anyway, if you have a targeting ability that wasn’t redirected can you please say so (only one person please) so that we can determine if it was a mass redirect or just a multi targeted one.
@Az: what is the flavor of your character/what is your title?
I subscribed to the thread when it opened since I had added my name to the replacement list, and have skimmed along as it has progressed. Two things have been bugging me for a while now 1) Az's neutral claim and offer to work with town. I've seen him do it before(and I'm sure it was in exactly the same way), and I think it was mind screw but when I checked his claim there it differs in a number of ways. It might be an older game that I'm thinking of but it would take forever to run through all his games to confirm what I vaguely recall. Hence why I asked specifically about MS, to see how he reacted. 2) Archmage shows up here and there but never seems to do much, yet he is largely ignored. And then Kazin said this about him:
Archmage Eternal: Town Lean - Archmage has always been quick to jump on good points, answer in a way that feels natural, presented himself in a way that feels very townie focused.
which I just could not see. Which is why I started with a read on AE, my top suspect.
I just want to point this out in context. This is a completely unnatural progression. The natural progression would be to vote Kazin for making a read you don't think makes sense. Or to at least question him. Not to go and without mentioning Kazin at all make a giant case against AE.
@Dota Starting your read on AE because of something he didn't do is just really strange to me.
Let me put it this way then. I had a suspicion of AE. Kazin posted a town read of him. I went back and dug deeper into AE to see if I was missing something and came to the conclusion that Kazin was wrong about him, he's scummy as all hell. When I finally got into the game, I went straight into casing my top scum read since my predecessor had not left me in a great position and I did not want to waste time not scum hunting.
I also disagree with his point that Rod's role suggests that Az is a threat. It makes sense at first blush to me, but then I remembered that this game has no flips and his role makes perfect sense in that environment (without it indicating that Az is a threat).
I agree in general, but worth noting - I strongly believe that "no flips" is not inherent in the game, but is caused by a player ability (likely the Kraken).
Quote from DoTArchon »
Are you assuming scum have daychat then? I'd also like to see your answer to Grape's question.
Coaching doesn't require daychat. It just requires you to read a nightchat backlog.
Iso: outstanding question on the votecount. Is "DoTArchon (1)" correct?
Either A)
The random effect came from the mafia and they holstered their shot.
Otherwise they have the potential to shoot themselves.
Which means that there is either a Vig or Azreal shot someone.
or B)
It didn't come from mafia.
This isn't a town ability.
So it can only come from the neutral.
It's quite likely the random effect just doesn't affect the nightkill. Possibly doesn't affect scum at all. In fact, if it's specifically "all town are randomized" that would make perfect sense as a scum ability plus explain why Az's ability didn't get redirected.
Rodemy being able to know there is a neutral in the game indicates that Iso wants us to know the neutral is in the game. Why? Because the neutral is dangerous and needs to be dealt with.
Rodemy is obviously intended to counter the reveal-blocking ability. If he hadn't decided to pop the ability yesterday, and had it available today, it would have been much more powerful. (No shade to Rodemy here; there was no way to predict this kind of thing happening.)
I heavily doubt the latter. Rodemy is a census taker. Plus having roles counter other roles is dumb.
I think that's a possibility I didn't consider for the first part.
Could it be that all "Factional abilities were not affected?"
Either A)
The random effect came from the mafia and they holstered their shot.
Otherwise they have the potential to shoot themselves.
Which means that there is either a Vig or Azreal shot someone.
or B)
It didn't come from mafia.
This isn't a town ability.
So it can only come from the neutral.
It's quite likely the random effect just doesn't affect the nightkill. Possibly doesn't affect scum at all. In fact, if it's specifically "all town are randomized" that would make perfect sense as a scum ability plus explain why Az's ability didn't get redirected.
Rodemy being able to know there is a neutral in the game indicates that Iso wants us to know the neutral is in the game. Why? Because the neutral is dangerous and needs to be dealt with.
Rodemy is obviously intended to counter the reveal-blocking ability. If he hadn't decided to pop the ability yesterday, and had it available today, it would have been much more powerful. (No shade to Rodemy here; there was no way to predict this kind of thing happening.)
I heavily doubt the latter. Rodemy is a census taker. Plus having roles counter other roles is dumb.
Ascetic, Bulletproof, Doctor, Godfather, Miller all exist to counter other roles. That's not dumb, that's normal mafia role design.
@shadow
you are welcome to go back to where I talked about it yesterday. I have nothing new.
@dota
I appreciate a new wind blowing in. And he could totally be scum. But what do you think of anyone else?
Did you read the whole game or just archmage iso?
I subscribed to the thread when it opened since I had added my name to the replacement list, and have skimmed along as it has progressed. Two things have been bugging me for a while now 1) Az's neutral claim and offer to work with town. I've seen him do it before(and I'm sure it was in exactly the same way), and I think it was mind screw but when I checked his claim there it differs in a number of ways. It might be an older game that I'm thinking of but it would take forever to run through all his games to confirm what I vaguely recall. Hence why I asked specifically about MS, to see how he reacted. 2) Archmage shows up here and there but never seems to do much, yet he is largely ignored. And then Kazin said this about him:
These points seem to come from someone who read the game. It might be true that he skimmed the posts, but to me it feels more like an outside influence.
Archmage Eternal: Town Lean - Archmage has always been quick to jump on good points, answer in a way that feels natural, presented himself in a way that feels very townie focused.
which I just could not see. Which is why I started with a read on AE, my top suspect.
Especially when he comes with this part which is almost entirely bull*****. Feels like he had to add to what his buddies told him to make it seem more original.
Nancy's replacement feels so lackluster. Immediately going after the lowest hanging fruit with a horrible post filled with IIOA.
@Dotarchon: What do you think of DBS and her lynch.
I probably would have voted for DBS as well had I been in the game at that point. As for the role, it sounds more like an inventor type of thing rather than just a 1-shot Doc as she claimed. Like she might have had a few 1-shots to dish out. But then why not claim so? Until we actually have the full flip it's another discussion that detracts from the here and now.
I don’t even know how to read this part. First he claims that he would’ve voted for dbs (I assume he means he believes dbs was scum) and then theorizes about her role and ends by saying this discussion is not helping us get anywhere. It’s a really dissonant part. Clearly not coaching though.
Lynching a Neutral does nothing to help town win, unless said neutral is a direct threat to town (like a SK). I'd much rather have scum waste a night kill on a neutral, although that would either require the neutral to be a serious threat to their longevity or of they were looking to set up a mislynch on town. Either way, make them do the dirty work so we can focus on using the lynch trying to kill actual scum.
This feels like blending in. He knows that people who wanted to vote for Az day 1 were scrutiny so he says this to make him look more townie. It might be coaching or he might have actually read the thread and realised this himself.
What more can I add about the no flips? It's all in the past and has been discussed already. Sure, maybe somebody let something slip that shows they have a bit more info than they should but I'm not the only player here, if others haven't spotted it yet the odds that I will are not likely. Same point I made about the Kraken above. It doesn't help to catch scum so dragging it out only helps scum hide behind a safe to discuss topic.
Nancy looked scummy, had I replaced into a different slot I would most likely have advocated lynching the slot. But I now have the role pm and knowledge I did not have before. Apologising for my predecessor doesn't do anything to help me. Discussing why I think they lurked, posted little and then replaced doesn't help me. Trying to catch scum helps me. Speaking of which, what do you think of my case on AE, and the fact that his only defense is to point out that Nancy did "less" than him?
Gah, I hate this part. He claims that there’s no reason to discuss the flips and kraken, because they are safe topics for scum (I don’t agree with this as someone with more info could easily slip) and claims that we have to hunt for scum while making a massive post with absolutely no scum hunting.
There’s a small chance this slot is terrible town, but coupled with Nancy’s play I think it’s almost impossible.
I kinda still want to lynch Az, but 90% sure he’s not related to the kraken or to the lack of flips.
vote dotarchon
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Not gonna lie, haven't been paying attention to who claimed redirected to who from what.
Was sort of assuming there'd be clarity by end of day, and I'm still (trying to) take a broader view.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Everyone: I know this is slightly fishing, but I think it’s valuable to figuring out the game so I’m going to ask anyway, if you have a targeting ability that wasn’t redirected can you please say so (only one person please) so that we can determine if it was a mass redirect or just a multi targeted one.
I don't think this is important, we've had three people claim that they were redirected, that's enough. Do you think the NK was redirected as well?
@Everyone: I know this is slightly fishing, but I think it’s valuable to figuring out the game so I’m going to ask anyway, if you have a targeting ability that wasn’t redirected can you please say so (only one person please) so that we can determine if it was a mass redirect or just a multi targeted one.
I don't think this is important, we've had three people claim that they were redirected, that's enough. Do you think the NK was redirected as well?
Its important from the perspective that Az’s ability wasn’t redirected (according to him), however it is possible that it’s a corner case involving factional abilities (IE the redirect couldn’t affect factional abilities and his soul steals possibly counts as one)
Look, I wanted to hit at least one person with the soul dtrsling just to prove my claim/flavor, and rode my was ideal because he is clearly not an advocate for me, and was unlikely to be killed off. Going forward, bulletproof would be nice, but I don't think it is terribly important, so I am completely content not to take any other souls. Although, there was a request from someone to have me target them tonight, presumably for some kind of verification purpose, so maybe 2? I don't care.
Mmmm okay, I was very wrong on Az then. I had focused on the offer to steal no more souls and forgotten the first part. Az's targeting not being impacted is very strange.
This does strongly imply it's not a town ability. Az's abilities counting as factional abilities strikes me as unlikely, so that makes me believe the wording would be town abilities are scrambled.
@Shadow and @Rodemy you're correct that Az can be a threat, but at this stage apart from stealing Rod's soul (which to the best of my knowledge doesn't harm Rodemy in any way) he has been playing as a slightly disengaged townie. And is proposing to continue doing so going forward. I see no reason to actively distrust him if continues to refrain from hammering and stealing souls for the time being. And worse case scenario we're still a ways away from Mylo.
@Shadow @DV you too have both claimed targeted abilities without claiming who your targets were or what your abilities were. If there are questions to whether the Kraken directed you to target someone or randomized it I think claiming a target doesn't reveal anything else about your abilities and would clear that up. Also gives us something to hold both of you to later when more claims come in. I think you should both claim your targets (without claiming your abilities).
@Shadow @DV you too have both claimed targeted abilities without claiming who your targets were or what your abilities were. If there are questions to whether the Kraken directed you to target someone or randomized it I think claiming a target doesn't reveal anything else about your abilities and would clear that up. Also gives us something to hold both of you to later when more claims come in. I think you should both claim your targets (without claiming your abilities).
I don't think this will give us much useful info at this stage, but I'm not against it. If it happens DV should claim first.
Kazin, Rodemy, I want you two to specifically evaluate DoTArchon and the current case.
A note for Kazin, since this is your first time and DoTA is at L-3: it is common procedure not to push anyone past L-2; this gives them time to give a "last defense" that is expected to include a claim of their role and actions so far. This protects against fast-lynching important roles like Doctors, and ensures maximal info in the thread.
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Where did you get the info that it causes targeting troubles?
@iso update on the kraken?
unvote vote Terry
VOTE: Az
THEN WHY THE HELL WAS AZ ABLE TO TARGET ME JUST FINE?!!!!!!
For future reference, this is not a tell, trust me. I am absent minded on both sides
Thoughts on az being the only person able to successfully target?
As far as Az successfully targeting; that is actually very peculiar.
@Az: do you have anything in your role that stipulates you having magical powers that cause you not to be affected by abilities (prior to you gaining 2 souls)?
@shadow and d_v
Did your pm's do the same?
That's the thing, it's not a case. It's look, low hanging fruit. Let's get him!
They hate us cause they ain't us.
ODD AND EVEN ARE HARD THINGS TO KEEP TRACK OF, OKAY?! :cry:
I don't care about you having a PR or not, it's just the way in which you brought it up. If it was just to confirm Az's role then why mention that you should have thought of it Day 1? You could have just asked him to target you. Why did you soft claim power?
I subscribed to the thread when it opened since I had added my name to the replacement list, and have skimmed along as it has progressed. Two things have been bugging me for a while now 1) Az's neutral claim and offer to work with town. I've seen him do it before(and I'm sure it was in exactly the same way), and I think it was mind screw but when I checked his claim there it differs in a number of ways. It might be an older game that I'm thinking of but it would take forever to run through all his games to confirm what I vaguely recall. Hence why I asked specifically about MS, to see how he reacted. 2) Archmage shows up here and there but never seems to do much, yet he is largely ignored. And then Kazin said this about him: which I just could not see. Which is why I started with a read on AE, my top suspect.
It's more of a gut read than a specific "compare post X to post Y". I was just in a game with you as scum, yes it was haiku but we all had the same posting restriction. It was easy enough to get a feel for who was what as though it was a normal game.
There's been a fair amount of speculation as to what is happening there, it has been proven that we can't vote for the Kraken, and it has also been theorised that Rodemy has some very strange inclinations towards mythical wildlife... It is definitely something that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later but as of this moment we have very little to go on. Is it an activated ability of a player? Passive? Only one person (or the scum team) knows. Too much hypothesizing about the Kraken deflects us from hunting scum, and gives players a cover of activity to hide behind.
I probably would have voted for DBS as well had I been in the game at that point. As for the role, it sounds more like an inventor type of thing rather than just a 1-shot Doc as she claimed. Like she might have had a few 1-shots to dish out. But then why not claim so? Until we actually have the full flip it's another discussion that detracts from the here and now.
Lynching a Neutral does nothing to help town win, unless said neutral is a direct threat to town (like a SK). I'd much rather have scum waste a night kill on a neutral, although that would either require the neutral to be a serious threat to their longevity or of they were looking to set up a mislynch on town. Either way, make them do the dirty work so we can focus on using the lynch trying to kill actual scum.
As I said above it's a gut read that I could be wrong about. I was completely wrong about Shadow there, and kept waffling back and forth between a seriously wacky conspiracy theory and doubting the hell out of myself. I'm having a similar issue here, although that is also clouded by the fact that there have been others who are uncertain on Shadow. I need to do a proper reread now that I've joined the game. But not once during my initial read/skim along did I think of you anywhere lower than a townlean.
I currently have some our of game issues that stand in the way of a proper readthrough/analysis. My daytime data plan has run out until 1st March, so I either have to read/post while at work(difficult) or between midnight and 5am when the "bonus" data is available(also difficult). I will put thoughts out on more players as I have time/capability to do so.
What more can I add about the no flips? It's all in the past and has been discussed already. Sure, maybe somebody let something slip that shows they have a bit more info than they should but I'm not the only player here, if others haven't spotted it yet the odds that I will are not likely. Same point I made about the Kraken above. It doesn't help to catch scum so dragging it out only helps scum hide behind a safe to discuss topic.
Nancy looked scummy, had I replaced into a different slot I would most likely have advocated lynching the slot. But I now have the role pm and knowledge I did not have before. Apologising for my predecessor doesn't do anything to help me. Discussing why I think they lurked, posted little and then replaced doesn't help me. Trying to catch scum helps me. Speaking of which, what do you think of my case on AE, and the fact that his only defense is to point out that Nancy did "less" than him?
Azrael (5): D_V, vezokpiraka, Kazin Drake, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Rodemy (L-2)
DoTArchon (3): Grapefruit21, KamikazeArchon, tomsloger
Archmage Eternal (1): DoTArchon
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
The deadline is set for March 7th at 0000 hours EST.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My character wanting to **** a kraken...
This is new.
Still waiting for d_v and Shadow to answer my question. As well as AZ.
Also: obv i want it dead because it rejected my advances >:[
So, anybody else wanna claim their ability worked/ redirected last night? Could help.
Also, are those vote counts correct? Because if so, two people have their votes blanked. Hoping that's just a typo.
I'm loath to put more info into the thread.
But my PM doesn't contradict that one.
Strongly agree with this. Az isn't a threat right now. Dota still hasn't said much, other than lynch AE because Kazin (who is sliped town) gave AE an unearned town lean. (Though I can emphazise with it being hard to say much when you have a very limited access window to play in.) That is bonkers.
@Dota do you think Kazin is scum with AE? I don't see the connective tissue for that read at all. Why does Kazin town leaning AE (who definitely didn't earn it) make AE scum when Kazin is >90% to be town?
I'll just say I think something is off with AE.
Dota brought it up, but I'm 90% certain that AE shouldn't have accepted that Azreal claim at all. Instead he choose to largely ignore the claim.
Also I agree with Rodemy.
Azreal seems to have targeted him specifically.
That seems no bueno.
Hypothesis.
There is either a Bullet Proof, Doctorm or RB in the game.
That player either got randomly hit by a kill or doctor protected or the RB hit mafia.
The other kill belongs to either the neutral or mafia.
If the Random was from the mafia then they wouldn't have shot it because it would have hit one of their own.
What do we gain from this knowledge?
The random effect did not come from mafia.
Part of my editing got cut out from posting on my laptop.
If dawn was town AKA 3 scum left, I'd at least half expect 2 on AZ rn.
Did the random effect come from mafia?
There are one of two options here.
Either A)
The random effect came from the mafia and they holstered their shot.
Otherwise they have the potential to shoot themselves.
Which means that there is either a Vig or Azreal shot someone.
or B)
It didn't come from mafia.
This isn't a town ability.
So it can only come from the neutral.
For there to only be one kill there has to be a BulletProof, Doctor or a RB in the game(Probably at least two) there could be a jailer or variants otherwise as well.
One of the players in the game was protected or a kill was randomly blocked.
The other kill belongs to the remaining neutral/mafia or vig.
Rodemy being able to know there is a neutral in the game indicates that Iso wants us to know the neutral is in the game. Why? Because the neutral is dangerous and needs to be dealt with.
I think the that Azreal's specific claim is BS. I think some of the statements he has made are dangerous, his play is akin to that of Mind Screw and other neutral games that he has played and I think his offer to work with either alignment is silly.
I think Azreal planned to take this to end game. Offer his allegiance to scum and then try and pick them off in the end game with what ever soul powers he has. I'd go as far as to say that Azreal's plan reminds me of this very old game
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/mafia/446737-sword-of-truth-mafia-game-over-the-end-of-magic?page=38
No, I do not have any secret powers regarding randomness.
I should have pushed Cythare a lot harder in StarTrek.
I knew Azreal was no good in Mind Screw but wasn't sure how to interact with him that game.
I'm over this trusting neutrals bull*****. Specifically when the mod puts mechanics in to alert the players that "Hey there is a neutral".
I just want to point this out in context. This is a completely unnatural progression. The natural progression would be to vote Kazin for making a read you don't think makes sense. Or to at least question him. Not to go and without mentioning Kazin at all make a giant case against AE.
@Dota Starting your read on AE because of something he didn't do is just really strange to me.
@DV why can't an ability that scrambles targeting and might make mafia shoot mafia be a town ability? Your conclusion on Rod is something that smells right when you first think about it, but given that we don't have flips this game it kind of serves an obvious purpose other than altering to the presence of a neutral. Still not interested at all in lynching Az.
SO many typos...
@Az which interaction are you referring to?
I'm liking dotarchon less and less. The last big post seemed like he was coached.
@grape: Can you rephrase #1033? I'm having trouble understanding what you meant.
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Would someone have necessarily claimed it as town? I don't think I believe that.
As for restating the part referring to Dota is saying that Dota suspected AE because Kazin gave him an unearned town read. Dota literally states that Kazin giving a bad town read is what inspired him to case AE. That makes no sense to me. My reaction would be to A: make a case against Kazin or B: talk to Kazin about that. Jumping to to C: Make a case against the third part feels like there is an agenda.
For the part directed at DV I was disagreeing with his conclusion. I don't think we can entirely rule out that the Kraken is a town ability and a scum ability. His case that it can't be scum is that it scrambles the NK targets potentially making scum target a buddy. This strikes me as making it a interesting if unlikely town ability.
I also disagree with his point that Rod's role suggests that Az is a threat. It makes sense at first blush to me, but then I remembered that this game has no flips and his role makes perfect sense in that environment (without it indicating that Az is a threat).
Also point to examples that feel coached.
Rodemy is obviously intended to counter the reveal-blocking ability. If he hadn't decided to pop the ability yesterday, and had it available today, it would have been much more powerful. (No shade to Rodemy here; there was no way to predict this kind of thing happening.)
@Az did you intend to target Rodemy?
Dude, he gave reason as to why he targeted me.
Sounds to me like you are against this lynch because you think it makes you sound towny. You defend az, yet you havent read his posts. You see him as "not a threat" soley because he is a nuetral.
@Rodemy: yes, my role specifically says that the Kraken’s presence messed with my targeting ability.
@DV: I’m almost wondering if it was a random affect at all, rather than us being forced to target someone, but we would have to confer who we were directed to in order to theorize deeper on that, and I’m not sure now is the time for that.
@Grapefruit: If Az wasn’t affected by the redirection that he’s possibly not revealing everything to us, which makes him lose some credibility. To say he’s not a threat is not strictly false, but something is definitely awry here.
@Everyone: I know this is slightly fishing, but I think it’s valuable to figuring out the game so I’m going to ask anyway, if you have a targeting ability that wasn’t redirected can you please say so (only one person please) so that we can determine if it was a mass redirect or just a multi targeted one.
@Az: what is the flavor of your character/what is your title?
Are you assuming scum have daychat then? I'd also like to see your answer to Grape's question.
Coaching doesn't require daychat. It just requires you to read a nightchat backlog.
Iso: outstanding question on the votecount. Is "DoTArchon (1)" correct?
I heavily doubt the latter. Rodemy is a census taker. Plus having roles counter other roles is dumb.
I think that's a possibility I didn't consider for the first part.
Could it be that all "Factional abilities were not affected?"
These points seem to come from someone who read the game. It might be true that he skimmed the posts, but to me it feels more like an outside influence.
Especially when he comes with this part which is almost entirely bull*****. Feels like he had to add to what his buddies told him to make it seem more original.
I don’t even know how to read this part. First he claims that he would’ve voted for dbs (I assume he means he believes dbs was scum) and then theorizes about her role and ends by saying this discussion is not helping us get anywhere. It’s a really dissonant part. Clearly not coaching though.
This feels like blending in. He knows that people who wanted to vote for Az day 1 were scrutiny so he says this to make him look more townie. It might be coaching or he might have actually read the thread and realised this himself.
Gah, I hate this part. He claims that there’s no reason to discuss the flips and kraken, because they are safe topics for scum (I don’t agree with this as someone with more info could easily slip) and claims that we have to hunt for scum while making a massive post with absolutely no scum hunting.
There’s a small chance this slot is terrible town, but coupled with Nancy’s play I think it’s almost impossible.
I kinda still want to lynch Az, but 90% sure he’s not related to the kraken or to the lack of flips.
vote dotarchon
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Was sort of assuming there'd be clarity by end of day, and I'm still (trying to) take a broader view.
Guess I should relive the journey after work
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mmmm okay, I was very wrong on Az then. I had focused on the offer to steal no more souls and forgotten the first part. Az's targeting not being impacted is very strange.
This does strongly imply it's not a town ability. Az's abilities counting as factional abilities strikes me as unlikely, so that makes me believe the wording would be town abilities are scrambled.
@Shadow and @Rodemy you're correct that Az can be a threat, but at this stage apart from stealing Rod's soul (which to the best of my knowledge doesn't harm Rodemy in any way) he has been playing as a slightly disengaged townie. And is proposing to continue doing so going forward. I see no reason to actively distrust him if continues to refrain from hammering and stealing souls for the time being. And worse case scenario we're still a ways away from Mylo.
@Shadow @DV you too have both claimed targeted abilities without claiming who your targets were or what your abilities were. If there are questions to whether the Kraken directed you to target someone or randomized it I think claiming a target doesn't reveal anything else about your abilities and would clear that up. Also gives us something to hold both of you to later when more claims come in. I think you should both claim your targets (without claiming your abilities).
Kazin, Rodemy, I want you two to specifically evaluate DoTArchon and the current case.
A note for Kazin, since this is your first time and DoTA is at L-3: it is common procedure not to push anyone past L-2; this gives them time to give a "last defense" that is expected to include a claim of their role and actions so far. This protects against fast-lynching important roles like Doctors, and ensures maximal info in the thread.