I have no fear of you getting me lynched but I would like to see you try to solve without me in it.
Don't really think I'm defensive and don't really think you've called me out for anything though
Then put on your townpants and get to scumhunting.
Ive called you out for your wine gif, voted you, said i had a scumread on you, asked you why you asked "would scum pick their partner" knowing they already have daychat.
I vote you and gave my reasoning, you replied saying i am the worst
I say i have a scumlean on you, you tell me you've done nothing scummy. That is two direct reactions to me calling you scummy.
I can't solve the game without you in it, silly. How am i supposed to believe you are town when you've done nothing to warrent townness. You've thrown out a few gifs and just agreed that we should keep neighbors a secret.
No reasoning. No explinations, just half hearted playing. I've seen town!tom throw out reads early game and do some decent d1 solving (pirates mafia, you were giving opinions on people by page 2)
Ive seen none of that so far.
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I posted a wine gif because you literally made a post about wine. I have no idea why you saw that as an attack.
I asked you about scum picking their buddy to see if that made sense in your mind. You seemingly not knowing about daychat is a good thing, and yeah its you so im hesitant to accept derp just on principle but I still feel pretty good about the questioning.
And yes my default mode for scumreads against me is dismissal. But yours are especially worthy of it because you should really know better by now.
It's fact I've done nothing scummy. It's also fact I've done nothing towny.
No plans to change that.
And I don't want you to solve the game as if I'm not here I want you to name a scumteam without me on it, because I'm not and that's a copout.
For toms sake and for everyone playing, im gonna hold off on tom reads til end of game. I feel like i am perceived to be tunneling again and i dont want to suck joy out of this game. My apologies.
Still want that bur vote explained though.
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Don't save it til end of game, just save it til you've actually got something.
I keep feeling like you should be equipped to read me but you never quite get there. And if you're town here "default suspicious for nothing" is getting old.
Don't save it til end of game, just save it til you've actually got something.
I keep feeling like you should be equipped to read me but you never quite get there. And if you're town here "default suspicious for nothing" is getting old.
So yeah I actually do want you to read me
Ok.
Bur vote.
Butwhy?
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Don't save it til end of game, just save it til you've actually got something.
I keep feeling like you should be equipped to read me but you never quite get there. And if you're town here "default suspicious for nothing" is getting old.
So yeah I actually do want you to read me
Ok.
Bur vote.
Butwhy?
I think you should ask shadow, he probably can provide better answer.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Don't save it til end of game, just save it til you've actually got something.
I keep feeling like you should be equipped to read me but you never quite get there. And if you're town here "default suspicious for nothing" is getting old.
So yeah I actually do want you to read me
Ok.
Bur vote.
Butwhy?
I think you should ask shadow, he probably can provide better answer.
Imma askin both them hooligans
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Hey Bur, what factors went into choosing your chat partner?
Do you think you would feel reasonably good about discerning alignment within a private chat? More specifically, do you think you would have a better insight to my alignment had we chatted?
I picked a person I like talking with and who is not likely to make my eyes bleed.
In the end, it came down to you and [the person I picked] and ended up picking the other since [reasons] and I kinda doubted that I'd be able to discern your alignment via neighbour chat.
What makes you think a given player is capable of having their alignment found out in a neighbor chat? If you don't think you can answer this without outing the person you picked, that's an acceptable answer at this point.
@Eco, bit early for that, but if you put a gun to my head, Tom and yourself. Not that Rodemy came out of his interaction with Tom looking worse, but I like Tom's initial mindset. Then again, I generally like his mindset in games, pulls off the nonchalant analyst much better than I ever could.
I think the semantics bit you caught onto, even if it's low-percentage, demonstrates higher-level scumhunting than what a mafioso would need to be doing this early in the game. Starting the conversation as you did, while helpful, seems like the pretty clear line given the setup.
I am tremendously sceptical of these reads. Could you please go into more detail about:
What exactly it is about Tom's initial mindset you like skepticism in Rodemy's early analysis of the setup/scum behavior (28/43), what I interpreted to be topical gifs that were relevant to the game (ex: Seppel), not just *****posting
How you got a town read if the mindset that you like is apparently just Tom meta and presumably therefore not alignment indicative Critical thinking about the setup and challenging Rodemy's base assumptions led me to believe this is town!Tom. I also find that being open to conflict/confrontation early in the game tends to be a more likely town trait than not, which is something Tom's meta tends to exhibit. I feel as though I'm not providing you a sufficient answer to this question.
Why you consider noticing a strict contradiction "high level scum hunting" It wasn't the strict contridiction. It was the semantics involved, which you mentioned in 32. Clearly, he changed his mind here. My observation was not the sentiment of what he way conveying, but his terminology used in doing so ("ultimately be bad" vs "won't do us any good").
What exactly about the conversation I started that seems town, when starting conversations is not a particularly challenging thing to do as any alignment. Generating content > not generating content? Not trying to rewrite the book here. I'm surprised you found more issue with that as opposed to the subject of conversation I pointed out. To answer my own question, however, you posed something open-ended and relevant to the setup that can shed light on people's mindsets on the individuals they chose, which seems potent in such a small setup.
I respect that these are "gun to the head" reads, but I am having real trouble believing that these reads are genuine.
I posted a wine gif because you literally made a post about wine. I have no idea why you saw that as an attack.
I asked you about scum picking their buddy to see if that made sense in your mind. You seemingly not knowing about daychat is a good thing, and yeah its you so im hesitant to accept derp just on principle but I still feel pretty good about the questioning.
And yes my default mode for scumreads against me is dismissal. But yours are especially worthy of it because you should really know better by now.
It's fact I've done nothing scummy. It's also fact I've done nothing towny.
No plans to change that.
And I don't want you to solve the game as if I'm not here I want you to name a scumteam without me on it, because I'm not and that's a copout.
Why should he know better? Why can't his methods for reads on you change from a game-to-game basis?
I didn't expect that response to my question. I thought ganderin meant that Rodemy and tom came out looking the same, but tom is townier or that Rodemy came out worse than tom. Now it makes a lot more sense.
I'm really liking dan's response to question number 4 on Ecophagy's list.
I want Eco to come back and post.
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Dan is very pro-Tom so far. Concidering i have been anti-Tom, i am finding this hard to be a good thing.
My analysis of tom and I's interaction is this:
Tom is suspicious.
His explination for asking a misleading question was sub par
Dan seeing nothing but Town-tom out of that rings my What-bell.
Not gonna dig too deep into it.
RODEMYS THOUGHTS ON TOM/SHADOW BUR-VOTE EXTRAVAGANZA 5: NEIGHBORS IN SPACE
They outted themselves as neighbors. (or at least willing to follow one another I instantly thought they were neighbors as well so lets go with that)
- Not sure how i feel about that.
Neither will explain why.
- Shadow asks a VERY leading question to bur, "Why do you think i voted you?" I know for a fact that can be a scum tactic. Have someone pick their own reason to be lynched. (not saying Bur IS town, but looking at that question in all aspects, there isn't a good reason for it to be asked. Just say why you voted and lets get on with the analysis.) It feels like you threw out a vote and hope something sticks.
-Tom dances around the question.
They both cling onto Bur asking how shadow knows better, like that is some sort of scumthing to say.
They both voted bur within minutes of each other, both without a reason why. That connects them. Bur was pointing that out.
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Dan: Man, I just don't know. On the one hand, I really struggle to believe those reads are genuine. Like just posting a WIFOM gif might not be straight-up *****posting, but it was presented without comment and therefore open to interpretation. I wouldn't necessarily expect you to know the example but Tom played a game on MU (that I was in) where he purposefully posted ambiguous gifs as scum and then used people's reactions to generate (false) reads. Or just Tom thinking about the setup isn't indicative of Town Tom, Tom likes puzzles and would go so far as to talk setup theory as scum even when it would probably be smarter not to.
Or your read on me: I just don't see how noticing those kind of semantics is next level at all, it's obvious. I don't even think my questions where that useful for finding out people's mindsets or anything, I was just talking for the sake of content: "Is mass claiming a good idea y/n?" is like the most basic question literally anyone can ask in any game with even the smallest additional mechanic.
So I think your reads don't actually make sense, and it troubles me that you have - in essence - said "these two strong, hard to lynch players are my top town for flimsy/non-sensical reasons". If you'd picked Rodemy or Bur or whatever then at least the read would be interesting because you'd (if you were scum) be potentially ruling out a mislynch, but instead they're just safe reads to make.
But.
Part of me thinks that if you were scum, even if you were making safe reads, they'd be better supported. For example, if you wanted to town read me, why not say "Eco noticed Rodemy contradicted himself but didn't immediately lynch him, that displays a desire to scumhunt not just get lynched"? Or for Tom you could say he seems more engagedless-agenda-y or whatever. It would be so easy to make up a town read that actually made sense. So maybe that means the reasons you have used are genunine, even if they are misguided?
Plus, this kind of 'thing that doesn't make sense but maybe isn't actually scum motivated' is the sort of thing I have hard tunnled on before.
So overall? I'm prepared to give Dan the benefit of the doubt for now, but boy do I think he needs to really think about his current reads and produce actual, good reasons for any future ones.
And I didn't dance around the question of why I voted burr I full on didn't answer, as I pretty much never do for my first few votes in a game which always makes you suspect me
For the record, I am voting Vezok because his posts have all been intentionally non-committal and neutral, the questions he is asking are empty busywork, and I don't think he's interested in scumhunting at all. He is welcome to try and prove me wrong.
For the record, I am voting Vezok because his posts have all been intentionally non-committal and neutral, the questions he is asking are empty busywork, and I don't think he's interested in scumhunting at all. He is welcome to try and prove me wrong.
I do like it when i see intention behind votes. Instead of blind votes or "why do YOU think i am voting you"
*cough cough Tomdow/Shatom
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dude
I don't live in a world where every vote needs to have reasons, or even come with a scumread. If you do, whatever.
I voted bur not because I thought he was scum or wanted to lynch him
But because I wanted to vote bur and see what happened.
Like, I placed that vote and then asked shadow via neighbor chat if he wanted to join me.
And then I got to watch bur (sort of) react to me voting him, I got to see shadows response to me asking him to join me, i got to see the thread react to bur having two votes on him. AND THESE THINGS ARE STILL HAPPENING
Now do I want to lynch bur? Meh. On the one hand I could have guessed "d1 bur lynch" just by looking at the playerlist and in general I'm not in to doing that but also that nonreaction was not what I wanted from town bur didn't really look like he was trying to figure out of there were scum voting him and just automatically assuming me and shadow were neighbors and us being scumbuddies was no more than a joke to him and I feel like that should be a terrifying thought to any townie that knows us and MAN IT SURE WOULD BE BETTER IF I DIDN'T SAY ANY OF THIS BEFORE BUR CAME BACK this is why you just let me do my thing I always explain when it's time and I am able to to my satisfaction I feel like it
I don't really like these kinds of questions because the times when I have a 100% scum read at 150 posts in are very few and far between. Like, I get the point of them, but I'm too conservative to ever bet the farm right out of the gate. To answer your question though, Voxx is my strongest (which is why I'm voting him) so pew pew. If I actually had a compulsory vig shot that didn't lose the game if I missed, I'd actually probably shoot Seppel. Firstly because I think it's completely within his remit as scum to plan to railroad the first person he sees and just brute force a mislynch and a short Day, and secondly because if Seppel flipped scum (or I got confirmed for being a Dayvig) it would force people to get off my wagon and actually do some scumhunting. Basically, his flip would reveal way more information than just shooting an early scum read.
I've been suspicious of Eco after his questions so I went and reread a scum game of his to see how he operates. This quotes illustrates the hyposcrisy in his accusations. Granted he was scum this game, but I feel like this was a general statement and not a Eco scum-meta statement.
In this game he was also pushing people for weak reasons.
Quote from = Eco »
What part of my own wagon analysis didn't answer your question? Cyan is in the pool of potential scum because he's anti-my-wagon but hasn't done anything to actually try and stop it, nor actually produced a read of me.
Note: A big wagon formed on Eco from the first posts. Cyan was also scum.
This is also a pretty bad reason to consider someone scum. I know that Eco's reasons when he is town are great and actually finds stuff other people haven't even thought about.
Vote Ecophagy
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Dont get upset at me for asking questions. A random blind vote by two people in quick succession
is enough to raise eyebrows and suspicion. Obviously you got my reaction, but you can't expect me not to ask for a reason.
@did anyone else want to know why those votes happened?
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The first quote completely misses the context that it was in response to being asked "Who would you say is your top wolf read at this moment in time? You have a dayvig that you have to use right now, if you hit town we lose. Go.". That I would not expect anyone to be confident enough to bet the entire game after 150 posts is, I think, entirely reasonable. That does not, however, mean that having no reads is reasonable. Beyond that though, the reason I am voting you is not solely because you have no reads: it is because your posts have been studiously neutral, and you had not even tried to get any reads. Such deliberate attempt to skate by is indicative of scum.
For the second quote, your analysis is incorrect. A player disagreeing with a wagon but making no attempts to stop it and without making a concrete read is a very solid reason to scum read that player - scum are very keen to take credit of a correct town read while also not preventing a mislynch. In addition, that read was a calcualted, intentional distance from my scumbuddy - had I produced a flawless case I might have got him lynched, which would have been Very Bad. If you are going to claim my scum meta involves attacking people for bad reasons, you have to produce actually valid examples (and counter-examples from my town games).
The worst problem is that this meta attack doesn't even connect to this game. Why are my reasons for voting you bad? You cannot produce evidence to counter my assertion, so you simply vacuously deny it, drawing fake parallels to a scum game.
As I said in #134, I would be prepared to be proven wrong by the revelation of reads or any interest in scumhunting, but this incredibly poorly constructed OMGUS is not that.
@tom you asked about scum picking their partner. Idk. Felt like you could have informed me they had daychat instead.
well aside from "how is that misleading?"...
Why would I ever tell you when I could try to see if it was real instead?
To not come off as disingenuous/manipulating? Loaded questions, etc.
---
Yes, knowing why the votes happened would be nice. My guess is they were intending to do that to garner reactions, and it'll be adequately explained in time. Nothing Bur has done thus far really strikes me one way or the other.
@Vezok Do you think the level of player in that game might have had something to do with how Eco's scumhunting/pushing was perceived? How about the willingness of him to use such a method of scumhunting in the future?
Also, do you not see issue with Eco's main complaint against you?
@Bur To supplement Shadow's 121, WHY do you think it deserved votes?
---
@Eco Can we take a step back here? 1: I don't think that just because your justifications and mine differ, that it makes mine bad. Maybe that's not how you're intending to come across, but that's how I'm taking it. 2: If the semantics were that obvious, why did no one else have objections to it (specifically the semantics) after you? 3: Mass claiming being so obvious is why it doesn't get asked with regularity anymore, no?
It just feels like you're coming across very disparaging over things that, at the time, were infantile in their creation. I've been up front about how this size/timeframe of game is not my strong suit. I answered your questions in what I considered to be suitable depth given the development of my reads. What else would you have me do?
You're asking me to get blood out of stone and then claiming because I can't do it I'm scum. This, in my humble opinion, is a horrible reason to vote someone. My post was talking about the Voxxrox (?) wagon you pushed on day 1, but I apparently forgot to explain that. The quote about Cyan was just another example.
The first page and a half of this game has left almost no impression on me, as stated before. I can't start asking nonsensical questions just for the sole purpose of appearing busy. If I have nothing to say, I have nothing to say. Things happened since then and I started to get into the game. Saying that my posts have been "studiously neutral" is a bold faced lie and you know it. I don't really see a world where town Eco has this kind of attitude.
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@Eco Can we take a step back here? 1: I don't think that just because your justifications and mine differ, that it makes mine bad. Maybe that's not how you're intending to come across, but that's how I'm taking it. 2: If the semantics were that obvious, why did no one else have objections to it (specifically the semantics) after you? 3: Mass claiming being so obvious is why it doesn't get asked with regularity anymore, no?
It just feels like you're coming across very disparaging over things that, at the time, were infantile in their creation. I've been up front about how this size/timeframe of game is not my strong suit. I answered your questions in what I considered to be suitable depth given the development of my reads. What else would you have me do?
1) My point is not "different therefore bad". My point is that I don't think your reaons are very good (in terms of "I don't think they are alignment indicative"), and that better reasons existed if you were, say, scum seeking to produce plausible reads.
2) I guess because I got there first so people didn't feel the need to? Or they silently followed the same line of thinking I had and dismissed it as not useful. Maybe I'm underselling my observation abilities or something - but even if I am and no-one else noticed the contradiction, I think it would be very much within my capability as scum to notice Rodemy making the contradiction and Do Something about it. Basically, I don't think you should town read me (or most players) for noticing it.
3) Does it not? I don't have any examples to hand, but it seems that "should we claim our neighbours" was an expected topic of conversation - that's why Tom and Vezok addressed it in their first posts, and my questions were just a continuation of their positions on the matter. Again, I basically just don't think I deserve town credit for it because it seems like a very simple and easy set of questions to ask regardless of my alignment.
I totally accept that your reads we in their infancy, and I respect that they weren't IRONCLAD HARD CLEARS. My overarching point is that I think were giving town reads out for things which didn't deserve town reads to players who scum would pick as people to pick as town reads because that's easier than trying to lynch them and maybe you can pocket them. My current conclusion is that your reasons, while I don't think they're very good, are more indicative of someone who is thinking about the game and coming to their own reads (i.e. town) than of someone who has been put on the sppot for reads and comes up with easy ones supported by some flimsy reasons (i.e. scum).
I don't mean to say "wow ur reason r bad u suk lol" I mean "I don't think your reasons justify your town reads because they are easily within the scum range of those players specifically, and I think a decent proportion of the playerbase at large". As for what I want? Really just for you to think about your initial reads and make sure you are happy with them. I don't need you to defend yourself or for me to monopolise your attention because I don't think you're scum at this juncture.
God dammit I just had a post get eaten because apparently the plugin I used to recover them violates chrome store policies and disabled itself GRRR. The gist of it was:
@Vezok:
Basically everyone else has managed to get blood from this particular stone, and I think your lack of evidence of trying is indicative of scum. People can judge for themselves if your opening posts are neutral and non-committal, it's not you I need to convince. But can't really accuse me of telling bald-faced lies when you look at how empty of opinion or analysis posts like #40 ("this WIFOM situation is WIFOM"), #48 ("I think this is the post in question, I can see how some people would call it WIFOM" with no followup on Rodemy or Tom, or even if you yourself think the post is WIFOM), #53, #67 (both "I got nothing"), #88 ("I have this tiny opinion but basically means nothing") #124 (Do you think Dan is town? What do you like about his answer?).
The thing that is annoying me most is that you've 100% committed to this dreadful counterattack as I've said VEZOK LOCK SCUM KILL IT IMMEDIATELY. It's not. I voted you because you've done some scummy things and we all have to start somewhere. The vicious and also poorly supported nature of your defence really doesn't look like someone interested in working the game out, just someone who has found a potential mislynch to stick their teeth into.
Eco looks and sounds solid town. I too see vezoks lackluster replies, although i am scared to say that is ultimatley a scum thing. He could just be bad at early game?
But here is my deciding factor for this vote:
He says he "likes dans responde to question 4"
Thats it. Not what he likes about it. Juat thag he does. I feel like that sort of blasé read can be inicative of scum trying ti say something townie.
His response ti evis pressure seems finicky as well. Pulling anothrr gsme into the mix. I get thag eco was scum in that game, but that was THAT game.
@vezok
Do you think eco would employ the same tactics as scum? Esspecially sincr it appears to be so easily pointed out and found?
vote vrzok
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Dont get upset at me for asking questions. A random blind vote by two people in quick succession
is enough to raise eyebrows and suspicion. Obviously you got my reaction, but you can't expect me not to ask for a reason.
@did anyone else want to know why those votes happened?
I'm not upset at you for asking questions. Or, indeed, at all.
I am at best perturbed that you keep trying to read me the same way despite it having literally never worked lol
Not Voting: Everyone, we're all friends here!
Bur (2): tomsloger, shadowlancerx
Not Voting (5): Bur, Ecophagy, Vezokpiraka, Ganderin_Dan, Rodemy
Then put on your townpants and get to scumhunting.
Ive called you out for your wine gif, voted you, said i had a scumread on you, asked you why you asked "would scum pick their partner" knowing they already have daychat.
I vote you and gave my reasoning, you replied saying i am the worst
I say i have a scumlean on you, you tell me you've done nothing scummy. That is two direct reactions to me calling you scummy.
I can't solve the game without you in it, silly. How am i supposed to believe you are town when you've done nothing to warrent townness. You've thrown out a few gifs and just agreed that we should keep neighbors a secret.
No reasoning. No explinations, just half hearted playing. I've seen town!tom throw out reads early game and do some decent d1 solving (pirates mafia, you were giving opinions on people by page 2)
Ive seen none of that so far.
I posted a wine gif because you literally made a post about wine. I have no idea why you saw that as an attack.
I asked you about scum picking their buddy to see if that made sense in your mind. You seemingly not knowing about daychat is a good thing, and yeah its you so im hesitant to accept derp just on principle but I still feel pretty good about the questioning.
And yes my default mode for scumreads against me is dismissal. But yours are especially worthy of it because you should really know better by now.
It's fact I've done nothing scummy. It's also fact I've done nothing towny.
No plans to change that.
And I don't want you to solve the game as if I'm not here I want you to name a scumteam without me on it, because I'm not and that's a copout.
For toms sake and for everyone playing, im gonna hold off on tom reads til end of game. I feel like i am perceived to be tunneling again and i dont want to suck joy out of this game. My apologies.
Still want that bur vote explained though.
I keep feeling like you should be equipped to read me but you never quite get there. And if you're town here "default suspicious for nothing" is getting old.
So yeah I actually do want you to read me
Ok.
Bur vote.
Butwhy?
I think you should ask shadow, he probably can provide better answer.
Imma askin both them hooligans
Oh, I apologize for mistaking you as neighbours, if you are scum partners instead.
Other votes?
Actual response to pressure?
What's going on?
Well since it was quite obvious that your are neighbours and have most likely talked something in your chat, so you both know.
And you have higher chance of actually answering with words instead of gifs and memes.
It's technically not better explanation but more easily understandable.
Do you have any suspicions as to what I voted you for?
I OBJECT! (And interject)
There is absolutely no reason for this question.
What makes you think a given player is capable of having their alignment found out in a neighbor chat? If you don't think you can answer this without outing the person you picked, that's an acceptable answer at this point.
I've bolded my responses in your quote.
Why should he know better? Why can't his methods for reads on you change from a game-to-game basis?
I'm really liking dan's response to question number 4 on Ecophagy's list.
I want Eco to come back and post.
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My analysis of tom and I's interaction is this:
Tom is suspicious.
His explination for asking a misleading question was sub par
Dan seeing nothing but Town-tom out of that rings my What-bell.
Not gonna dig too deep into it.
RODEMYS THOUGHTS ON TOM/SHADOW BUR-VOTE EXTRAVAGANZA 5: NEIGHBORS IN SPACE
They outted themselves as neighbors. (or at least willing to follow one another I instantly thought they were neighbors as well so lets go with that)
- Not sure how i feel about that.
Neither will explain why.
- Shadow asks a VERY leading question to bur, "Why do you think i voted you?" I know for a fact that can be a scum tactic. Have someone pick their own reason to be lynched. (not saying Bur IS town, but looking at that question in all aspects, there isn't a good reason for it to be asked. Just say why you voted and lets get on with the analysis.) It feels like you threw out a vote and hope something sticks.
-Tom dances around the question.
They both cling onto Bur asking how shadow knows better, like that is some sort of scumthing to say.
They both voted bur within minutes of each other, both without a reason why. That connects them. Bur was pointing that out.
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Or your read on me: I just don't see how noticing those kind of semantics is next level at all, it's obvious. I don't even think my questions where that useful for finding out people's mindsets or anything, I was just talking for the sake of content: "Is mass claiming a good idea y/n?" is like the most basic question literally anyone can ask in any game with even the smallest additional mechanic.
So I think your reads don't actually make sense, and it troubles me that you have - in essence - said "these two strong, hard to lynch players are my top town for flimsy/non-sensical reasons". If you'd picked Rodemy or Bur or whatever then at least the read would be interesting because you'd (if you were scum) be potentially ruling out a mislynch, but instead they're just safe reads to make.
But.
Part of me thinks that if you were scum, even if you were making safe reads, they'd be better supported. For example, if you wanted to town read me, why not say "Eco noticed Rodemy contradicted himself but didn't immediately lynch him, that displays a desire to scumhunt not just get lynched"? Or for Tom you could say he seems more engagedless-agenda-y or whatever. It would be so easy to make up a town read that actually made sense. So maybe that means the reasons you have used are genunine, even if they are misguided?
Plus, this kind of 'thing that doesn't make sense but maybe isn't actually scum motivated' is the sort of thing I have hard tunnled on before.
So overall? I'm prepared to give Dan the benefit of the doubt for now, but boy do I think he needs to really think about his current reads and produce actual, good reasons for any future ones.
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Vote vezokpiraka. Wish granted.
Seems kinda mafia theory
What misleading question did I ask?
And I didn't dance around the question of why I voted burr I full on didn't answer, as I pretty much never do for my first few votes in a game which always makes you suspect me
I find myself mirroring ecos thoughts for now Concerning dan or is he mirroring me?
I felt it was a good, grounded response. Don't really think scum, in general, will give such a response. I also liked it because it's good theory.
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Why would I ever tell you when I could try to see if it was real instead?
I do like it when i see intention behind votes. Instead of blind votes or "why do YOU think i am voting you"
*cough cough Tomdow/Shatom
I'm flying up to Sydney this afternoon to attend the team unified modern GP (playing Abzan and am not happy about it for any MTG'ers in here) there and will be incredibly distracted. I'll try to keep vote counts up to date, but no promises.
No one open this spoiler but rodemy
I don't live in a world where every vote needs to have reasons, or even come with a scumread. If you do, whatever.
I voted bur not because I thought he was scum or wanted to lynch him
But because I wanted to vote bur and see what happened.
Like, I placed that vote and then asked shadow via neighbor chat if he wanted to join me.
And then I got to watch bur (sort of) react to me voting him, I got to see shadows response to me asking him to join me, i got to see the thread react to bur having two votes on him. AND THESE THINGS ARE STILL HAPPENING
Now do I want to lynch bur? Meh. On the one hand I could have guessed "d1 bur lynch" just by looking at the playerlist and in general I'm not in to doing that but also that nonreaction was not what I wanted from town bur didn't really look like he was trying to figure out of there were scum voting him and just automatically assuming me and shadow were neighbors and us being scumbuddies was no more than a joke to him and I feel like that should be a terrifying thought to any townie that knows us and MAN IT SURE WOULD BE BETTER IF I DIDN'T SAY ANY OF THIS BEFORE BUR CAME BACK this is why you just let me do my thing I always explain when
it's time and I am able to to my satisfactionI feel like ithere's a game I played transparently for the luls
It was awful and i hated it
My iso is only 177 posts but that's misleading because that site has automerging if you post multiple times in a row and I embrace it
Have fun
I've been suspicious of Eco after his questions so I went and reread a scum game of his to see how he operates. This quotes illustrates the hyposcrisy in his accusations. Granted he was scum this game, but I feel like this was a general statement and not a Eco scum-meta statement.
In this game he was also pushing people for weak reasons.
Note: A big wagon formed on Eco from the first posts. Cyan was also scum.
This is also a pretty bad reason to consider someone scum. I know that Eco's reasons when he is town are great and actually finds stuff other people haven't even thought about.
Vote Ecophagy
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is enough to raise eyebrows and suspicion. Obviously you got my reaction, but you can't expect me not to ask for a reason.
@did anyone else want to know why those votes happened?
The first quote completely misses the context that it was in response to being asked "Who would you say is your top wolf read at this moment in time? You have a dayvig that you have to use right now, if you hit town we lose. Go.". That I would not expect anyone to be confident enough to bet the entire game after 150 posts is, I think, entirely reasonable. That does not, however, mean that having no reads is reasonable. Beyond that though, the reason I am voting you is not solely because you have no reads: it is because your posts have been studiously neutral, and you had not even tried to get any reads. Such deliberate attempt to skate by is indicative of scum.
For the second quote, your analysis is incorrect. A player disagreeing with a wagon but making no attempts to stop it and without making a concrete read is a very solid reason to scum read that player - scum are very keen to take credit of a correct town read while also not preventing a mislynch. In addition, that read was a calcualted, intentional distance from my scumbuddy - had I produced a flawless case I might have got him lynched, which would have been Very Bad. If you are going to claim my scum meta involves attacking people for bad reasons, you have to produce actually valid examples (and counter-examples from my town games).
The worst problem is that this meta attack doesn't even connect to this game. Why are my reasons for voting you bad? You cannot produce evidence to counter my assertion, so you simply vacuously deny it, drawing fake parallels to a scum game.
As I said in #134, I would be prepared to be proven wrong by the revelation of reads or any interest in scumhunting, but this incredibly poorly constructed OMGUS is not that.
Yes, knowing why the votes happened would be nice. My guess is they were intending to do that to garner reactions, and it'll be adequately explained in time. Nothing Bur has done thus far really strikes me one way or the other.
@Vezok Do you think the level of player in that game might have had something to do with how Eco's scumhunting/pushing was perceived? How about the willingness of him to use such a method of scumhunting in the future?
Also, do you not see issue with Eco's main complaint against you?
@Bur To supplement Shadow's 121, WHY do you think it deserved votes?
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@Eco Can we take a step back here? 1: I don't think that just because your justifications and mine differ, that it makes mine bad. Maybe that's not how you're intending to come across, but that's how I'm taking it. 2: If the semantics were that obvious, why did no one else have objections to it (specifically the semantics) after you? 3: Mass claiming being so obvious is why it doesn't get asked with regularity anymore, no?
It just feels like you're coming across very disparaging over things that, at the time, were infantile in their creation. I've been up front about how this size/timeframe of game is not my strong suit. I answered your questions in what I considered to be suitable depth given the development of my reads. What else would you have me do?
The first page and a half of this game has left almost no impression on me, as stated before. I can't start asking nonsensical questions just for the sole purpose of appearing busy. If I have nothing to say, I have nothing to say. Things happened since then and I started to get into the game. Saying that my posts have been "studiously neutral" is a bold faced lie and you know it. I don't really see a world where town Eco has this kind of attitude.
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1) My point is not "different therefore bad". My point is that I don't think your reaons are very good (in terms of "I don't think they are alignment indicative"), and that better reasons existed if you were, say, scum seeking to produce plausible reads.
2) I guess because I got there first so people didn't feel the need to? Or they silently followed the same line of thinking I had and dismissed it as not useful. Maybe I'm underselling my observation abilities or something - but even if I am and no-one else noticed the contradiction, I think it would be very much within my capability as scum to notice Rodemy making the contradiction and Do Something about it. Basically, I don't think you should town read me (or most players) for noticing it.
3) Does it not? I don't have any examples to hand, but it seems that "should we claim our neighbours" was an expected topic of conversation - that's why Tom and Vezok addressed it in their first posts, and my questions were just a continuation of their positions on the matter. Again, I basically just don't think I deserve town credit for it because it seems like a very simple and easy set of questions to ask regardless of my alignment.
I totally accept that your reads we in their infancy, and I respect that they weren't IRONCLAD HARD CLEARS. My overarching point is that I think were giving town reads out for things which didn't deserve town reads to players who scum would pick as people to pick as town reads because that's easier than trying to lynch them and maybe you can pocket them. My current conclusion is that your reasons, while I don't think they're very good, are more indicative of someone who is thinking about the game and coming to their own reads (i.e. town) than of someone who has been put on the sppot for reads and comes up with easy ones supported by some flimsy reasons (i.e. scum).
I don't mean to say "wow ur reason r bad u suk lol" I mean "I don't think your reasons justify your town reads because they are easily within the scum range of those players specifically, and I think a decent proportion of the playerbase at large". As for what I want? Really just for you to think about your initial reads and make sure you are happy with them. I don't need you to defend yourself or for me to monopolise your attention because I don't think you're scum at this juncture.
I'll cook some dinner now and will reread after that.
@Vezok:
Basically everyone else has managed to get blood from this particular stone, and I think your lack of evidence of trying is indicative of scum. People can judge for themselves if your opening posts are neutral and non-committal, it's not you I need to convince. But can't really accuse me of telling bald-faced lies when you look at how empty of opinion or analysis posts like #40 ("this WIFOM situation is WIFOM"), #48 ("I think this is the post in question, I can see how some people would call it WIFOM" with no followup on Rodemy or Tom, or even if you yourself think the post is WIFOM), #53, #67 (both "I got nothing"), #88 ("I have this tiny opinion but basically means nothing") #124 (Do you think Dan is town? What do you like about his answer?).
The thing that is annoying me most is that you've 100% committed to this dreadful counterattack as I've said VEZOK LOCK SCUM KILL IT IMMEDIATELY. It's not. I voted you because you've done some scummy things and we all have to start somewhere. The vicious and also poorly supported nature of your defence really doesn't look like someone interested in working the game out, just someone who has found a potential mislynch to stick their teeth into.
But here is my deciding factor for this vote:
He says he "likes dans responde to question 4"
Thats it. Not what he likes about it. Juat thag he does. I feel like that sort of blasé read can be inicative of scum trying ti say something townie.
His response ti evis pressure seems finicky as well. Pulling anothrr gsme into the mix. I get thag eco was scum in that game, but that was THAT game.
@vezok
Do you think eco would employ the same tactics as scum? Esspecially sincr it appears to be so easily pointed out and found?
vote vrzok
What info can you gsther from shadow joining you on your vote?
I am at best perturbed that you keep trying to read me the same way despite it having literally never worked lol