@Rez: Why was Vez obligated to add something of substance on the issue that he was actively ignoring. Sorry for that being unclear.
This still doesnt make sense.
Ok. Let's say you're talking about mono-W being insane in modern. I don't think that makes any sense. Why am I obligated to talk about that instead of, say, why Jund could be a top tier deck again now that Assassin's Trophy can consolidate SB slots?
So Vezok chose to ignore GF's warning of not giving info away. But he did it in such a way that I got the impression that he was trying to use his lack of interaction with dead bodies to get other people to come forward with more info about their roles.
Also, what's the logic behind the Cantrip read? If you'd like, you can keep it to the quote you posted.
It looks like he's saying 'it doesn't make sense for scum to do xyz' a lot which is bothering me. I'm gonna reread his stuff real quick: looking at just cantrips posts isolated, im probably way off base, there just isn't a whole lot there. Reexamining the back and forth between him and Vezok I'm going to: unvote
I think I was taking things a little too far out of context with regards to Cantrip and I havent seen anything else from Vezok that bothers me.
Lastly, what do you think about GF being "one for two" on the justification for his two reads, after your analysis? How do you think the relative inactivity from Terry factors in here?
I don't know what to make of it yet. I'm hoping someone else might have an idea.
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I saw his vote on Vez for the soft aspect-claim as too extreme, like scum trying to attack on something they thought was more significant than it really was.
So prior to my going to bed, I thought I'd do an exercise in which I'd take the current post count, and subtract from the post counts of each person all of the nonsense posts. These include the standard page one of Day 1 silliness, posts that are just empty votes without any justification or attempt at seriousness, posts that were just a correction of an error in a previous post, and posts that are… just saying that you’re going to post later. (Why would you do that? Why don’t you just take that and make the post? That’s like handing out pennies at Halloween.)
I'm happy to say that most of the people who are not named Iso fared pretty well. The one stand out who didn't was M00S16. M00S16 has 6 posts in total, 4 of them were from page one, he hasn't posted in the last three days, and only one of his posts can really be said to have any real substance to it. I actually had forgotten he was even in the game.
The cards decide that the best way to win the game is by playing a game of Shahrazad under the table. Highroller wants to see everyone's deck before they begin the game, but the other players do not seem interested in this.
@KA: Phantom toolboth is exactly why I didn't comment on that.
If you can mindmeld with me so hard when you are scum, than mindmelding is NAI. I still think you have a higher probability of being town than scum right now, but I'm not making any rash decisions about you cause it won't end well.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Highroller: If you don't think I came out well in your read, why aren't you voting me?
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Vote KamikazeArchon
Who else saw what I saw?
Well, I saw that Kami was scum like two pages ago, but please do tell what else you've noticed.
ALSO:
[spoiler]Mass claiming this early is almost ALWAYS designed against in role madness and on top of that, even if it wasn't, it's agains the spirit of the game. So can we stop with the Mass Claim discussions for now.
@Kami: And here's where "I can't help it if my scum game looks exactly like my town game" bites me in the butt. As Vezok mentioned, I've been scum since I came back from my hiatus, and I *thought* I *was* playing my town game in all of those. So yeah, go ahead and vote me if you feel like you must, but I'm actually town this time. If it takes a few mislynches for people to realize that I apparently only have one game and it looks the same regardless of alignment, so be it.
@JoeTerry: Re your 121: I'm actually getting some scum pings from Grape; is it possible that he's playing to your expectations/pocketing?
@Highroller: You glossed over the important part of my question: how many times have you seen a DAY 1 massclaim be beneficial to town? (I'm guessing, even if you don't have hard data because of MTGNews, that it's actually happened very few times, so your assertion that it will be beneficial is based on you seeing D2 or D3 massclaims turn out well. I think a lot of mods actually build things into their setup to make a D1 massclaim unattractive, although I admit that it's suggested little enough that maybe it's just assumed that a D1 massclaim won't actually be pushed.
That said, you're REALLY harping on this one point, and I haven't seen you do much of anything other than 1) claim, 2) attack Vez, 3) argue for a mass claim, EWP: 4) modgame. When can we expect to see some scumhunting? EWP: Oh, lol, and now you're spending your time identifying players who haven't provided content? Just because your post count is sky high doesn't mean you've actually contributed content to the game. Here, I'll help you out: who are the two players you suspect of being scum the most? Why? And no, "because they're against a D1 massclaim" is NOT a valid reason.
I feel like a TON of time has been spent on massclaim/modgaming debate, and I'm not feeling very strongly about anyone right now. So here's a very loose T-S list:
Town
• ganderin_dan - I've mindmelded on several of his posts. I generally tend to see his logic as town, but I can't remember if I've played in a game where he was scum.
• TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - I like the calm confidence I'm getting, even from the few posts he's made. The confidence comes standard with JoeTerry, but the lack of crazy handwaving/presence of calm is refreshing.
• Vezokpiraka - This feels like pretty standard Vezok. Slight possibility that he saw Kami's vote on me and Rez's suspicions(?) and tried to make my wagon a thing, but overall I think he feels like he did in Phantom Tollbooth.
• KamikazeArchon - Can't blame him for feeling suspicious of me after just having scummed with him. I'm not real thrilled with his early "are you scum with X" posts, but haven't really seen anything else concerning.
• Rezombied - I like that he called Grape out on his JoeTerry vote. I like that he examined his own reads in 151 and also his cheeky response to Iso. Feeling better about him.
• Highroller - Needs to drop the calls for massclaim and move on to playing mafia. I have a slight modgaming/mechanical reason for leaning town on him.
• Iso - Much like Seppel or kpaca, I don't expect to be able to figure him out anytime soon. I'm hoping he really will do something that points me one way or another.
• Axelrod - Hasn't contributed much other than arguing with Highroller. I agreed with him telling Kami that Vezok didn't feel like he was being overly defensive.
• MOOS12 - Need moar.
• Grapefruit21 - His vote of SJT and subsequent call for more votes felt off to me. But I don't think that scum!Grape makes the assumption that his reason for voting SJT would be more obvious. I think scum!Grape makes his reasoning more transparent, but...still leery.
• Bur - Feels...very light and noncommittal. Needs sorting. Scum
@Dan: Can you point me to some of your recent scum games?
@Kami: Let's play devil's advocate. You think I'm scum. You've had recent experience with how I treat my scumbuddies. If I'm scum, who do you think stands a good chance to be my buddies? Why?
@Vez: You correctly identified that I've been scum A LOT recently. How do you know that this isn't just "my play" (not my scum play or my town play, but how I roll)?
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
@Iso: Not seeing what you are on Kami.
I think I want to:
Vote: Bur
@Bur: From your posts so far, I feel like I know that you:
• Felt similarly to me on Rez's #25.
• Don't think Highroller and SJT are buddies.
• Are busy and need more sleep.
Questions:
• When you asked Kami to "interact" with you in 87, what were you expecting? What does "interaction" look like? Why are you putting the onus on him to interact with you rather than you asking questions of him?
• What do you think of Rez's posts since #25?
@Cantrip: Well, if Grape had said, "Ok, you got me Joe, I just wanted to push you to participate more" I would have been a lot more happy with his response and felt more confident that he was town, but his response was much more, "No, I'm really pushing you as scum Joe", which makes very little sense to me.
Ohh Cantrip. I really wanted to be town with you. It's not the play pattern, it's the motivation behind it. I have actually seen your town game and know that there is no difference in posting, but my problem is on a deeper level.
Zombied attacked me on a baseless claim. I made a huge posting attacking him for it (it was mostly because I was bored and wanted to spur up discussion). Bur naked voted him (in character for Bur, also pretty convincing that he actually had a reason) and then you voted him for no reason (You made some weird sentences, but nothing resembling a reason). In my mind you saw Bur do it, thought I was attacking rezombied and decided another naked vote would push a lynch onto Rezobmied or at least a claim. It was a very tactical vote and even the text you made with your vote shows you thought about it for some time.
Your next post was meh, with a bit too much fluff about the Team mafia game. It's not really out of the ordinary for any alignment for you, but it's not exactly a great place to be.
And now you come up with this apology for attacking you, by claiming your scum game is very similar to your town game.
I'm not as sure as I usually am about my vote, but I think it's in the right place for now.
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@KA: Phantom toolboth is exactly why I didn't comment on that.
If you can mindmeld with me so hard when you are scum, than mindmelding is NAI. I still think you have a higher probability of being town than scum right now, but I'm not making any rash decisions about you cause it won't end well.
Hm, this tracks.
unvote
Cantrip's responses to me were quite good. I feel like there would have been stronger emotion if he was scum, and I think I like how he approached Bur. Normally I'd be disliking the inconsistency on Bur being "needs sorting" but then getting the vote at the end, but having played scum with Cantrip, I think he would have specifically tried for consistency if he was faking reads; this looks more like a stream-of-consciousness.
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
I'm back. I've reviewed. We're still talking about a massclaim? Seriously? And the justification now is catching mafia in fakeclaims? I just played a scum game and the mod literally designed and gave us safe fakeclaims, including both mechanics and flavor.
This reads as pandering to the town.
Quote from KamikazeArchon »
I started out not caring much and now I'm definitely against a massclaim simply because Highroller's arguments have been so flawed.
I'm under the impression that you're experienced enough that somebody you've never played with's arguments in favor of something really shouldn't be affecting your opinion this much. This reads as bravado for the sake of looking confident.
Quote from KamikazeArchon »
Vezok: Your view on cantrip is extremely similar to mine. Why no commentary on that? Especially given that I successfully "mindmelded" you in Phantom Tollbooth as scum?
This reads as Kami trying really hard to get people to townread him. That said, I do at least like that he called vezok out, here.
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At any rate, this post sent up red flags and alarm bells for me. It doesn't feel like it comes from a townie mindset.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Eh, Highroller is probably Town just for pushing the mass-claim thing so hard. Like, it is theoretically possible he's scum and he specifically knows from his role (and his teammates? Do we know if the scum had any pre-day chatting?) that a mass claim would be spectacularly bad for the Town, that he could try a gambit like that. But it would still be a rather large gambit, and I'm feeling the strength of his convictions.
I don't feel anything else right now, because I have only skimmed everything else. I will attempt to place an informed vote sometimes tomorrow. But NO PROMISES.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Eh, Highroller is probably Town just for pushing the mass-claim thing so hard. Like, it is theoretically possible he's scum and he specifically knows from his role (and his teammates? Do we know if the scum had any pre-day chatting?) that a mass claim would be spectacularly bad for the Town, that he could try a gambit like that. But it would still be a rather large gambit, and I'm feeling the strength of his convictions.
I don't feel anything else right now, because I have only skimmed everything else. I will attempt to place an informed vote sometimes tomorrow. But NO PROMISES.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Highroller: You glossed over the important part of my question: how many times have you seen a DAY 1 massclaim be beneficial to town? (I'm guessing, even if you don't have hard data because of MTGNews, that it's actually happened very few times, so your assertion that it will be beneficial is based on you seeing D2 or D3 massclaims turn out well. I think a lot of mods actually build things into their setup to make a D1 massclaim unattractive, although I admit that it's suggested little enough that maybe it's just assumed that a D1 massclaim won't actually be pushed.
I know for a fact I was lynched Day 1 as a mafia in an X-Men-themed mafia game because I claimed something that was immediately seen through by someone with a lot more X-Men knowledge that I had (not a high bar to jump over). Beyond that, day one claims happened at about the rate they do here, and the ’News' mafia board went down a long while ago so I wouldn’t be able to go back and view all of the games I was a mod or player in. I do remember several mafia games it would have broken, including my own. Also, once again, and I really can't stress this enough, (and don't anyone complain to me about how I'm still going on about Day 1 claiming, you all complain that I'm talking about it and then keep bringing it up in conversations with me) if you're against a Day 1 claim, but you're in favor of a mass claim any other day, that is completely illogical.
That said, you're REALLY harping on this one point, and I haven't seen you do much of anything other than 1) claim, 2) attack Vez, 3) argue for a mass claim, EWP: 4) modgame. When can we expect to see some scumhunting?
I haven’t seen you do much of anything period. If you’re claiming I’ve only done four things this game, that means I’ve done about as many things as you’ve made posts.
Also, did you miss the part about Grapefruit? Did you miss the part where I commented on the case against rezombied?
Oh, lol, and now you're spending your time identifying players who haven't provided content?
Are you talking about how I pointed out that M00S12 was an inactive player which resulted in a necessary mod prod? Yeah, how terrible. Don’t know how I sleep at night.
Just because your post count is sky high doesn't mean you've actually contributed content to the game.
Dude, the game's been going for a week. You've made six posts. Don't lash out in an attempt to deflect the 100% justified criticism that is being sent your way for lurking.
This is a 12 person game. There are only so many roles that can exist, and we don't know whether the mafia all have a common theme to their roles, or if how much they know about this, or how the game is constructed thematically. All of these are factors in claiming.
Disagree. There is effectively infinite roles that can exist, and they are strictly dictated by the creativity of a mod in a given game. The fact that there are so many layers to the individual roles (I'm digging off my own a bit in this assessment, but I think it's a fair one given the public information so far). And a 12 man, which while I haven't created in a role madness setting itself (although I have helped review double digits of them), has fewer people to CC than the 16+ setups that I do have experience creating, so I think it's reasonable to expect that it would be more difficult to catch/predict a fake claim in that context.
ganderin_dan, I have a question for you with regards to this exchange.
Is your role:
A) A role that syncs up with one of the stock mafia roles that can be found in games (example: inspector, doctor, bodyguard, vigilante, mayor, etc.)
B) A role that somewhat resembles one of the stock mafia roles that can be found in games (example: you have more than one ability, maybe one of your abilities relates to the above while the other is totally different)
C) A role that does not at all resemble one of the stock mafia roles, and is instead unique to this game (example: your role pretty much exclusively does stuff with the graveyard or some other mechanic unique to this game like colors, card types, etc.)
Iso, you can go ahead and ignore that. I was typing as I was going through the thread and neglected to delete that sentence.
Also, I think we really need to pay more attention to TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, because either he's mafia or he's town, and if he's town, he's a massive troll/loose cannon.
@rezombied Would Vezok’s trying to get people to come forward with information strike you as a positive or negative thing? Why?
Why did Cantrip’s scum analysis bother you? Does his more recent post change your opinion at all?
@Iso Are you happy with rezombied’s response to you?
Iso, you can go ahead and ignore that. I was typing as I was going through the thread and neglected to delete that sentence.
Also, I think we really need to pay more attention to TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, because either he's mafia or he's town, and if he's town, he's a massive troll/loose cannon.
WTF!? How am I trolling or a loose canon!? This is a massive shade tree here. I actually wanted to address his post before this too, but this one blew me away.
So I'm town or scum... Genius!
BUT IF I AM TOWN... you're suggesting that I'm a massive troll or loose cannon!? Where does this even come from? Just a few posts ago, Cantrip put me on top of his T/S because of the exact opposite of what you're saying.
EVEN IF I WAS A MASSIVE TOWN TROLL CANNON... what do you suggest we do about, you want to Lynch me? EVEN THOUGH I'M TOWN!?
It's weird that you feel this way about me considering my stance on you and your opinion differs pretty drastically from other people's.
Ok, now on to your other post (#173)... why do you care so much about Dan's role? Five bucks says you have a scum role that is dependent on other player's subtype.
Also, since when are you this confident so early on?
I put another two dots in willpower
thanks for addressing my other issues with your play
Nothing to address in a bunch of "this reads as". You're welcome to your opinion.
no ur welcome
Okay, so what you're saying is if I rephrase my post to say, "KA is scum because his mindset is [blah blah etc.]" rather than "KA is scum because this post reads like his mindset is [blah blah etc.]", you'll respond to my points about you?
If so, can we skip the pedantry? Because I'm really not convinced you just don't know how to respond to me and save face, here.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm back and done with all my exams. I feel like I bombed them all, hate life and the gloomy autumn outside, but at least now I can focus more on mafia.
I'll start catching up now, can't guarantee I'll finish it tonight (I need to be sleeping in 45 mins) but I'll try to post some actual content tomorrow by latest.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I think that we probably shouldn't claim anything else based on flavor. My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too. As much as I want to talk about my card because it's one of my favorites and just sweet!
I think that we probably shouldn't claim anything else based on flavor. My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too. As much as I want to talk about my card because it's one of my favorites and just sweet!
@Vez I'd think the claim is minorly +town to want to be preemptive/proactive with providing information. I'll echo GF in that we should probably keep claims to a minimum, however.
@Bur Care to explain?
-Town
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Iso yes he's telling the truth about a publicly confirmed part of his role (or FPS'ing which seems highly unlikely given his, well, everything) and I'm taking that as town+. I usually am a fan of publicly announced information being claimed when it goes public. If Highroller hadn't been so adamant about a mass claim I'd be assuming there was more to his claim to come.
@Bur hopefully you're exams went better than you think.
@Axelrod That's not too dissimilar to my breakdown (I'm even lower on Rezombie's reaction). What do you make of KA's reaction to the (extended) reaction? What about Terry's?
Gun to head, Highroller is town for his insistence on the massclaim topic. Very odd hill to die on early in the game if scum, and very odd to make himself the center of attention as scum. It was distracting, but there wasn't a lot else to distract from.
I think Cantrip's 160 puts him back in the leaning town category, but I thought he was town all through Phantom Tollbooth until he got caught. This is absolutely Town Vez. That's all I've got so far.
@g_d: Cantrip specifically, because of my experience with scum!Cantrip in Phantom Tollbooth.
@Iso: Speculation on my mindset, in general, doesn't merit a response. If you ask me a question I'll answer it. If you claim I did X when I did Y, I'll probably comment on it. But if you claim I did X, and I really did do X, but you just add some speculation about why I did X, there's no point in commenting on that most of the time. And here, the X is just "I made those posts" which, duh, yes I did make those posts.
This game is weirdly (normally?) flat in terms of high posters. Recent games have gotten me used to a player or two spam posting their way to super high post counts and that (thankfully) isn't happening here. Going to do a bit of a thought dump and try to spark some discussion.
I think I like where Cantrip's head is at. He's being a bit opaque but in a way that feels like he's trying to generate reactions and not hide his opinions. I also like that he naked voted Rezombie and didn't back down. I also like his poking at people ignoring his naked vote. Drawing scrutiny to oneself ins't a hard town tell but it's >rand to be town.
Leaning towards Highroller being town, he's stubborn and the proposal is sucking all the air out of the thread but it's such a weird hill to die on. Especially as a first game back after a long hiatus. Like I could see his play coming from scum but I have a hard time seeing it in this situation and this way. In particular pairing the random lynching order bringing up and dropping just feels so natural. Such a bizarre thing to propose and immeadiately drop when challenged if scum. Like if he's scum this all had to be preplanned and if he had this random lynching idea in mind ahead of time and really believed it I'm not sure why he'd bring it up at all. And if it was a discussion starter he didn't believe in it's such a weird thing to bring up to immeadiately drop. I'm still paranoid about his quickness to call anyone against the mass claim scum and his focus on it could easily be a distraction tool, but that paranoia doesn't really make sense when looking at the possible mindsets behind bringing the mass claim and random lynching up.
Bur is a nearly empty mixed bag. I liked his naked vote and sticking by it (similar to cantrip in that regard) but some other parts feel forced. In particular his poke at KA to interact with him. Weird targeting and nonexistant follow through. Poking at KA given his cryptic can't see the whole picture yet posts makes sense but selecting him only is bleh.
Going to talk about KA and Terry together. I really dislike both their reactions to the Rezombie/Vez stuff. KA attacks Vez for being overly defensive. I didn't feel Vez was particularly defensive, but more importantly I don't think that should be a scum indicator. I don't feel like the attack was well founded, Vez is routinely argumentative, and KA should pick up on both of those things given his familiarity with Vez. And his continuing too early to tell schtick feels the opposite of Cantrip's lack of clarity, avoiding comment and shutting down discussion. As for Terry his vote feels so gotcha. I know that's standard Terry but it's very opportunistic and so shadeful. At some level attacking KA for their tone while mimicking it for effect. He doens't engage on the substance of why KA's vote is bad or really do anything with it other than attack the style while copying it. I don't know what to make of his reaction towards me. Been trying to think on it and I can't really wrap my head around either POV for thinking I was needling him to engage him.
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
I feel relatively confident saying that at least one of the people on the "Highroller is town for pushing the massclaim" momentum is scum. I'm leaning Grape after his most recent post, but I think I'd need to re-read to properly assess.
Gun to head, Highroller is town for his insistence on the massclaim topic. Very odd hill to die on early in the game if scum, and very odd to make himself the center of attention as scum. It was distracting, but there wasn't a lot else to distract from.
I think Cantrip's 160 puts him back in the leaning town category, but I thought he was town all through Phantom Tollbooth until he got caught. This is absolutely Town Vez. That's all I've got so far.
I definitely agree regarding feeling that way about vezok. I'll have to look back on that post by Cantrip and see what about it makes you think he's town.
@Iso: Speculation on my mindset, in general, doesn't merit a response. If you ask me a question I'll answer it. If you claim I did X when I did Y, I'll probably comment on it. But if you claim I did X, and I really did do X, but you just add some speculation about why I did X, there's no point in commenting on that most of the time. And here, the X is just "I made those posts" which, duh, yes I did make those posts.
Cool. I'm claiming you did X in Y way because Z. Prove me wrong.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So, I read Grapefruit's posts in isolation and the way his reads and thought processes develop through the game don't seem entirely organic - I'm getting twinges of insight that his views are being shaped more by the momentum of the game rather than the occurrences therein. The indicator of this to me is that his posts read like he's establishing views and then working to justify them afterwards, rather than the other way around. It feels clunky and unnatural.
I keep going back to Cantrip's list in #160. I like the positioning of most of his bottom players (with the exception that I feel KA should be in there, somewhere) and looking back on Grapefruit's posts, a team that contains Grapefruit/KA or Grapefruit/Axelrod wouldn't surprise me at this juncture (not that the two are mutually exclusive, but that I'm hesitant in thinking the answer would be so obvious at this juncture, and I do kind of like Axel's approach to Highroller's claim, though I admit that's NAI).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Dude, you’ve clearly been acting a fool for the entire day. The question is are you clowning because you love those trololols, or is it so you’ll skate under people’s radars?
@Highroller My role, at its core, is fairly standard and strictly functions based off of mechanics unique to this game.
Thank you. I’d like to take a moment to clarify what you mean by “and strictly functions off mechanics in this game.” The two abilities I’ve claimed both are unique to this game, as they deal with the graveyard, not a mechanic found in other games. These abilities, while strictly functioning off mechanics in the game, are decidedly non-standard. You are, by contrast, claiming at least a somewhat standard town role, indicating you have at least one ability that functions at least somewhat like a town role that might be found in another mafia game, which I designated as a “B” category
A) A role that syncs up with one of the stock mafia roles that can be found in games (example: inspector, doctor, bodyguard, vigilante, mayor, etc.)
B) A role that somewhat resembles one of the stock mafia roles that can be found in games (example: you have more than one ability, maybe one of your abilities relates to the above while the other is totally different)
C) A role that does not at all resemble one of the stock mafia roles, and is instead unique to this game (example: your role pretty much exclusively does stuff with the graveyard or some other mechanic unique to this game like colors, card types, etc.)
So far, five significant events have happened today:
1. My roleclaim and the resultant reactions
2. The discussion of the merits and flaws of claiming and to what extent
3. The movement against rezombied
4. The movement against KamikazeArchon, and
5. The movement against cantripmancer.
These all should be scrutinized.
Let’s talk about them.
1. My roleclaim and the resultant reactions
The biggest things to come out of this have their own bullet points and will be discussed later. Here’s a list of the notes I’ve taken on as a sort of overview, more for reference in future days than anything else.
Post 20: Grapefruit says we shouldn’t claim anything else, as he has an ability based on card types.
Post 21: Iso says he believes his vote on me was in the right place.
Post 22: Bur asks why I chose to claim.
Post 24: vezokpiraka says, “Don't know what to make of highroller's claim. It doesn't help my role.”
Post 25: rezombied responds to Bur’s question with “I'm interested, too. Seems odd coming out the gate with it and I have a few theories.”
Posts 29-31: ganderin_dan, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, and Cantripmancer post without reaction.
Post 32: Axelrod: votes me on the grounds that the goblin’s presence in the graveyard means I’m a terrible recruiter. [I’ll admit, he’s not wrong.]
Post 35: KamikazeArchon posts without reaction.
Post 37: rezombied says he’s anticipating my response to Bur.
Posts 46-47: M00S12 posts without reaction.
Post 50: Grapefruit21 asks vezokpiraka if he thinks I’m lying.
Post 51: cantripmancer responds asking Grapefruit why he wants to explore whether I’m lying. No reaction of his own to my claim.
Post 52: vezokpiraka replies, “I do not think highroller is lying and I think it's a moderately good thing he claimed. There are probably multiple roles that need to use the goblin he creates as a resource.”
Post 53: Grapefruit writes, “And I'm not particularly curious about highroller's claim. I'm curious why Vez didn't know what to think of it but had so little to say about it. I agree his reactions to Rezomibe felt solid but I still am weirdly pinged the way he felt compelled to talk about Highroller's claim but didn't say anything in doing so.”
Post 55-57: Back and forth questioning between Grapefruit and vezok.
Post 59: Iso unvotes, cites need to reexamine things.
Post 60: I claim my second ability.
Post 61: Grapefruit posts the following, “Well that is interesting. Maybe there is a Deathrite Shaman in this game (I figured the cards used in the art just wouldn't be in the game). Still expect a Yawgmoth's will. Dig through time or treasure cruise could play off that as well. I'm drawing blanks on other banned cards that care about graveyards. Nothing in dredge except Bazaar is banned anywhere these days. And Bazaar wouldn't care about the cards in the GY already. Hmmm…”
Post 99: Iso posts, “Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.”
Post 111: Axelrod posts an analysis of claimed role abilities, expressing distrust/disbelief, and asks some questions regarding them.
Post 117: My response to Axelrod and Iso.
Post 123: Iso expresses disbelief in my response.
Post 179: Iso expresses his belief that I am at least partially telling the truth based on the presence of Mon’s Goblin Raiders
2. The discussion of the merits and flaws of claiming and to what extent
While the debate about claiming has for the most part been associated with me, for obvious reasons, it is important to note that the discussion actually began much earlier.
After I claimed on post 19, Grapefruit posted on Post 20 that we should not claim anything else based on flavor, given that his role cares about card types.
I think that we probably shouldn't claim anything else based on flavor. My role cares about card types and I wouldn't be surprised if scum roles did too. As much as I want to talk about my card because it's one of my favorites and just sweet!
vezok would shortly after post saying he did not know what to make of my claim, saying it’s not useful to his role. This, as we all know by now, prompted rezombied to vote vezok, as vezok had gone against Grapefruit.
We already know this, why am I pointing it out? Well, what is fascinating to me are vezok’s responses to this. Consider post 34:
How much time did you spend fabricating this reason for believing I'm scum? Simply put, it is impossible for me to control the actions of other players, by ignoring posts from others. I might exasperate people with this, but I'll hardly make them claim if they didn't really want to.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
As for you question: I like claiming early and often. I also do things in game that I believe are better that the vast majority of players would consider awful. Even so, just because one player made a post suggesting people stop claiming, doesn't mean that is good advice. Why would grape's opinion hold more sway than both my and highroller's?
I have a question for you rezombied: Why do you think people are voting you right now?
Let’s really analyze this post here, because there are three things vezok says that are of note:
1. His post was not meant to sway others into disregarding Grape’s advice and claiming parts of their role, BUT even if he’d thought it would sway others into doing so, he’d still do it even as a town given his strong history of proposing mass claims.
2. That he likes claiming early and often, says just because Grape made a post doesn’t mean it’s good advice, and asks why grape’s opinion should hold more sway than both his and Highroller’s.
3. He then asks the question of why rezombied thinks people were voting for him. More on this later.
For now, let’s look at the first two. So vezok defends himself against rezombied by saying he’s an ardent proponent of claiming, saying he would claim even if it meant influencing others to claim, and saying he likes claiming early and often, including mass claims.
We then move to post 37. rezombied responds to vezok’s statement,
[quote from="vezokpiraka »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/799971-banned-mafia-day-1-carde-diem?comment=34"]
just because one player made a post suggesting people stop claiming, doesn't mean that is good advice.
what good are you hoping to achieve by not following it?
what good are you hoping to achieve by not following it?
More information in the hands of players. I consider that the town as whole can make better decisions when they know more about the setup. Scum can look at 3 roles, while town only at one. A better understanding of the game mechanics leads to better actions.
vezok also doubles down on his questioning of rezombied’s opinion on his vote, asking why he doesn’t care, but more on that later.
What should be taken into account is something vezok says in this post:
I purposefully ignored grape's post and did my thing.
We are talking about the conversation now because you brought it up. I didn't even oppose grape's point. I haven't claimed anything remotely important, but you act like I went against grape's advice and claimed my card and my entire role.
The part about claiming something “remotely important” is noteworthy.
Recall the impassioned defense by vezok, in which he states he supports roleclaiming all of the time, and when questioned by rezombied what he hoped to achieve, he stated that he sought to give more information to the town. And yet, now vezok is trying to claim that he didn’t actually give up any significant or remotely important information. This is completely contradictory.
It almost invariably ends in me being suspected for being scum with no reason except "Boo, proposing massclaims is scummy." Also not all games need a mass claim of any type. For example, this game does not need people claiming just based on what grape is saying.
Reread that again. “For example, this game does not need people claiming just based on what grape is saying.”
Why is Grapefruit someone that vezok says he doesn’t need to listen to when rezombied scrutinizes him for claiming part of his role, yet when the scrutiny comes from the opposite direction, all of a sudden listening to Grape becomes extremely important?
“I do this kind of stuff all the time! I love claiming! Claim early, claim often! I don’t need to listen to Grape, he can’t tell me what to do!”
“So why don’t you advocate mass claims more often?”
“Well we definitely shouldn’t do it in this game! Look at what Grape posted!”
Again, we’re all supposed to pretend that this isn’t contradictory?
I know people are going to try to strawman this argument by saying that I’m just trying to make vezok suspicious because I don’t like that he doesn’t support the mass claim. But this is garbage. The suspicious element is not that vezok does not agree with a mass claim, it’s his reversal of positions at the drop of a hat (or, more accurately, at the drop of ganderin_dan’s post). Irrespective of what you think of the merits and flaws of a mass claim, the fact that Grapefruit goes from someone vezok ignores because he’s just doing his thing, to saying that Grapefruit’s post is the reason people shouldn’t claim is a total 180.
It really does seem like vezok is fishing for information here while trying to avoid claiming anything substantial about his own role. If vezok was so adamant about the merits of claiming, Grapefruit be damned, then he probably should have claimed more. Yet as soon as ganderin_dan posted his statement, vezok switches, and all of a sudden Grapefruit’s post becomes authoritative and the reason why people shouldn’t claim.
He later goes so far as to say this:
I don't have a problem with people who claim day 1 if they believe it's for the greater good of the game, but it's not a good idea, highroller being an exception.
What happened here?
vezok started out from I support all kinds of claims, I hope to gain information from the town, I’ll do whatever I want, why should Grapefruit’s opinion matter more than mine, and then subsequently 180’ed to, it’s not a good idea to claim, people shouldn’t claim. What happened here? Grapefruit’s post? The one that vezok was so comfortable ignoring?
Or was it ganderin_dan’s scrutiny?
Also, again, we see this lukewarmness about the whole thing. We see adamant support for claiming of all kinds, yet vezok is reluctant to claim any more about his role than he doesn’t use the graveyard. We see vezok later switch and say, No claiming, claiming is bad, Grape said so. Oh, by the way, if anyone wants to claim, that’s totally fine. You can claim if you want to. Don’t let me stand in your way.
It all adds up to a lot of nothing makes sense. As gandarin_dan points out, vezok completely contradicts his own logic, which he then attempts to walk back and acts like he’s not completely switching his position.
We then go to post 73. vezok had previously stated that mass claiming would hinder the town. I asked why. vezok responds with
This question will be answered at a later date, but suffice to say I have very strong reasons to believe this.
So we have a guy who, when voted against, repeatedly states about how much he loves claiming and how much he believes in sharing information with the town… until he suddenly believes the exact opposite.
3. The movement against rezombied
Overview of relevant posts.
The movement against rezombied began after I roleclaimed on post 19. After the post, Grapefruit21 said on post 20 that we he thought we should not claim anything else based on flavor. vezok then posted on post 24, saying that he actually had one of his favorite cards, and that he didn’t know what to make of my claim, as it did not help his role. In the subsequent post, post 25, rezombied votes vezokpiraka out of going against what Grapefruit21 said, saying that he should not claim anything else based on flavor.
Immediately afterward, on post 26, Bur voted rezombied without explanation, a vote that he continues to maintain even now.
vezokpiraka responded to rezombied in post 28, claiming rezombied was faulty on multiple lines, including that what he claimed was inconsequential and insignificant, and that he didn’t need to follow Grapefruit’s advice anyway. On post 31, cantripmancer votes rezombied, also without explanation. rezombied responds to vezok on post 33, saying that he voted vezok because it looked like vezok was trying to get people to ignore Grapefruit and claim stuff about their roles, and then asked why vezok ignored Grapefruit’s advice.
Post 34 is particularly noteworthy. It is important to note that vezok will later admit openly that he was, in fact, being overly defensive in this post (post 52). Keep this in mind.
In Post 34, vezok proceeds to go off on a tirade against rezombied, and then asks a question that will prove a key one in this day,
I have a question for you rezombied: Why do you think people are voting you right now?
Afterward, KamikazeArchon votes vezok for being too offensive (Post 35). Axelrod subsequently responds (Post 36):
*twitch*
*twitch*
It's really not.
rezombied then responds to vezok, saying that vezok seems to be trying to encourage the town to roleclaim, at least partially, by his actions, and questions what vezok was hoping to achieve, in addition responding to vizor’s question of why he thinks people are voting for him with “I don’t care” (Post 37). Also, in post 38, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry votes KamikazeArchon for being “too offensive.”
vezok responds in post 39, claiming that he wasn’t trying to influence people, didn’t claim anything “remotely important,” and then proceeds to double down on the question he asked previously.
I don't care is not an answer to the posed question. I didn't ask you "how do you feel about people voting you?", but "why".
Either say that you don't know why people are voting you, even though I was asking for an educated guess or say that you don't care enough to answer my question.
Grapefruit responds on post 50. Of particular note is this quote, “After Phantom Tollbooth you're going to tell me that being defensive is a scummy trait for Vez? What exactly are you pointing to as defensiveness here?”
cantripmancer posts asking why people are only questioning one of two of his naked votes, while still giving no explanation (post 51). In post 52, vezok addresses the accusation by KA by saying, “As a sidenote: KA's is right. I was being extremely defensive because I was bored and wanted to stir ***** up. He's wrong about that making me scum though.” Grapefruit appears to buy this explanation.
KA posts in post 62, saying that vezok was not defensive in Phantom Tollbooth mafia.
In post 64, Bur explains his vote,
@whoever was interested: I voted rezombied for their #25, which felt really awkward. The whole "Ha vezok, didn't you read what grape said? Vote vezok" felt really icky to me.
Grapefruit responds to KA in post 68, saying that he believes vezok was defensive.
rezombied responds to vezok in post 72. In it, he points out the same fault in vezok’s logic that I’ve pointed out, going on about how he’s giving important information only to say that the information isn’t important later. He also defends his answer about not caring about the role.
Grapefruit then posts in post 75, asking why rezombied doesn’t care why people are voting for him, and also, why does he think that vezok saying his role does not use the graveyard is valuable information.
cantripmancer explains his vote in post 91, saying “I saw his vote on Vez for the soft aspect-claim as too extreme, like scum trying to attack on something they thought was more significant than it really was.”
rezombied responds to vezok and Grapefruit in post 114.
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry posts in 118, noting that Kami voted vezok for being too aggressive, and that this was a sign that Kami was mafia, and that rezombied and Kami are both mafia.
Grapefruit21 then votes for rezombied in post 149, summarizing the case against him in three major points:
A. Voting vex for ignoring Grape’s advice
B. Not caring why people were voting for him
C. Not pushing Highroller
rezombied posts again in post 151, reiterating that he believed vezok was saying his role information in an attempt to get others to reveal it as well.
vezok posts in 162, again stating that he posted an overly aggressive post, again claiming it was mostly out of boredom.
I believe I got all the relevant posts there.
So, analysis:
I don’t feel the case against rezombied has any merit. The summary as provided by Grapefruit was:
A. Voting vez for ignoring Grape’s advice
B. Not caring why people were voting for him
C. Not pushing Highroller
I’ve already stated that B is stupid. It was page one of day one and the votes against him were both posted without any explanation. If the people who themselves voted didn’t care enough to explain themselves, there was no reason for rezombied to care, and again, it was page one of day one. Votes are passed out like candy on page one of day one. I would have said the exact same thing, and for Grapefruit to keep pressing rezombied on this issue makes no sense.
Now, let’s look at point C. Point C seems to be referring to rezombied saying that he wanted to hear more from me with regards to Bur’s question of why I claimed. Now, for reference, I answered Bur’s question in post 60, rezombied’s next post was on post 72. You could see this as suspicious, but I don’t, because I think I’d made it abundantly clear why I claimed right off the bat. I’d even questioned vez, the guy who previously went off on the merits of roleclaiming, why he wasn’t in favor of more roleclaiming. So point C doesn’t read as suspicious at all, and it’s baffling why Grapefruit is harping about it.
Finally we have point A, voting vez for going against Grape’s advice. rezombied claims that he thought vez was doing this as a ploy to encourage other people to claim their roles. I read this as being honest, and I can understand where he’s coming from with regards to this. After someone says don’t claim, someone then claims a detail with regards to graveyard interaction in their roles, promotes someone else talking about whether the role has graveyard interaction.
To conclude, I see no merit to this bandwagon.
4. The movement against KamikazeArchon
Thank goodness this one is not as involved.
KamikazeArchon votes vezok for being too defensive on post 35. Axelrod disagrees in post 36. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry disagrees and votes KamikazeArchon on post 38. Terry then comes back in post 118 to say that he thinks Kami and rezombied are mafia together.
Skip to page 4. Iso votes Kamikaze in 157. He then explains this in 165, saying that KamikazeArchon seems to be trying very hard to get people to townread him by pandering in post 148. He also cites KamikazeArchon displaying an out-of-character bravado.
Then Grapefruit21 posts in 188, saying that KA attacked vez for being overly defensive, which does not sit well with Grapefruit as he disagrees, claiming the attack was not well-founded.
And Iso recently continued his suspicion.
Of particular note here is that TheRealStinkyJoeTerry and Grapefruit21 have attempted to cast suspicion on KamikazeArchon for his statement that vezok was too defensive…
… even though vezok wrote this on post 52.
As a sidenote: KA's is right. I was being extremely defensive because I was bored and wanted to stir ***** up. He's wrong about that making me scum though.
He even restated this in post 162.
Yet, Grapefruit12 still posts that he doesn’t feel like vezok was too defensive, and TheRealStinkyJoeTerry has never actually acknowledged this, nor reversed his vote, but instead doubled down. Ample suspicion needs to be levied straight at these two.
Iso’s posts, to his credit, doesn’t hinge on the claim that voting vezok for being too defensive was out of left field. That said, I don’t know what KA’s previous mafia game activity was, so I don’t have anything to compare him to with regards to being unusually confident. I will have to review Iso’s post further.
5. The movement against cantripmancer
This is quite short, thank goodness.
rezombied posts suspicion of an interaction between cantrip and vezok in post 72, although that seems to be more about vezok.
Cantrip's #105 would probably be completely innocuous except I just finished being scum with him, and that looks exactly like his early posts there. This is a hunch, but I'll go with it.
I also...mostly don't feel like scum picks "hey guys massclaim on D1 is best strategy" as the hill to die on. If you're scum, I hand it to you as a very original approach, and part of me wants to try it, but then another part of me feels like it has a lot of potential to backfire
Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming.
this reads as disingenuous.
-----
vezokpiraka votes cantripmancer in post 115,
[quote from="vezokpiraka »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/799971-banned-mafia-day-1-carde-diem?comment=115"]I wanted to see if Cantrip is going to post, but I'll share my reads now. I'm 60% rezombied is town who's making bad arguments and tunneling and cantrip just jumped on the opportunity.
Cantrips play so far has been extrenely shallow and non-commital while at the same time being full of nothing. I really didn't like his point about hin veing scum in team mafia 2 as it had no relevance to the theoritical aspect we were talking about. Cantrip has been scum for the last 5 games in a row he played here. Talk about unlucky.
vote cantrip
cantrip posts in 160 saying his mafia game is the same as his town game.
vezok states in post 162 that he suspects cantrip of bandwagoning with regards to rezombied, and this vote was too tactical.
In post 163, KamikazeArchon unvotes, saying that he’s satisfied with cantrip’s statements.
I don’t know what to make of this one. I don’t know anything about cantrip’s normal playstyle. I do agree with vezok that it’s suspicious that cantrip voted rezombied, but I also think the same reasons behind that equally apply to Bur.
So, all of that taken into account, I'm going to continue to vote Grapefruit. It really seems like he's looking for some person to kill. It's really telling that he's trying to take up an argument against KA calling vez overdefensive even after vez himself has stated that he was being overly defensive, and his arguments against rezombied hold no merit.
Still very suspicious of vez.
Suspicion in the way of Terry for his going after KA, even doubling down on it after vez outright stated he was overly defensive.
I don’t feel the case against rezombied has any merit. The summary as provided by Grapefruit was:
A. Voting vez for ignoring Grape’s advice
B. Not caring why people were voting for him
C. Not pushing Highroller
I’ve already stated that B is stupid. It was page one of day one and the votes against him were both posted without any explanation. If the people who themselves voted didn’t care enough to explain themselves, there was no reason for rezombied to care, and again, it was page one of day one. Votes are passed out like candy on page one of day one. I would have said the exact same thing, and for Grapefruit to keep pressing rezombied on this issue makes no sense.
Now, let’s look at point C. Point C seems to be referring to rezombied saying that he wanted to hear more from me with regards to Bur’s question of why I claimed. Now, for reference, I answered Bur’s question in post 60, rezombied’s next post was on post 72. You could see this as suspicious, but I don’t, because I think I’d made it abundantly clear why I claimed right off the bat. I’d even questioned vez, the guy who previously went off on the merits of roleclaiming, why he wasn’t in favor of more roleclaiming. So point C doesn’t read as suspicious at all, and it’s baffling why Grapefruit is harping about it.
Finally we have point A, voting vez for going against Grape’s advice. rezombied claims that he thought vez was doing this as a ploy to encourage other people to claim their roles. I read this as being honest, and I can understand where he’s coming from with regards to this. After someone says don’t claim, someone then claims a detail with regards to graveyard interaction in their roles, promotes someone else talking about whether the role has graveyard interaction.
To conclude, I see no merit to this bandwagon.
So, all of that taken into account, I'm going to continue to vote Grapefruit. It really seems like he's looking for some person to kill. It's really telling that he's trying to take up an argument against KA calling vez overdefensive even after vez himself has stated that he was being overly defensive, and his arguments against rezombied hold no merit.
Okay so most of this post is solid and was a good read. But I want to focus on these two parts.
So on the Rezombie part point B is weak. I'll readily admit it. It's not specifically about him not caring about votes, it's his attitude of "I don't care." He's not engaging and doing so in a way that's shutting down discussion and not showing the inquisitiveness that I'd expect from town. That he doesn't care that there are votes on him is a town look, his disinterest in trying to figure out why those votes are there is a negative. For example I don't care at all that your vote is on me, I do care about why it is because it gives me insight into your thought processes. It's supsicious that Rezombie has no curiosity on anything beyond Vez's claim and whether or not my suspicions were obvious.
The second point you break down ties into the above. With Vez's "claim" he was fully engaged and willing to nitpick fully but with yours there was minimum initial interest and no follow through. You mention you don't find this suspect because of how clearly you thought you explained yourself. Given that almost every other player was directly asking you questions about it I find Rezombie just dropping it to be strange. We know he's not someone who lacks follow through (see his back and forth with Vez) so it's just strange that given his expressed aversion to any information leaking and things looking like bait for more claims that he'd have 0 issue with your play this game. It makes his push on Vez make no sense to me. I don't see how you can have a problem with one but not the other. And this also answers your question. A and C aren't really two separate points to me. They show the break in his mindset.
On Vezok's defensiveness: I don't really care what Vez says: that wasn't the most defensive I've seen him (or Kami because we've been in games together that I'm thinking of) but even setting that value judgement aside KA's only point is defensiveness. I find it shocking that he would try to read Vez off that. He denies that he felt Vez was defensive at all in Phantom Tollbooth which I find hard to believe. When Vez is saying he was being intentionally defensive I think he's employing faulty self meta and underestimates how defensively he normally reads.
@grape: Over defensive and defensive are two different terms. I know well enough that my playstyle is incredibly defensive, but it's a reasonable amount.
I agreed with KA that I was being over defensive because rezombied voted me and gave a one line reason and I made a huge post about how his reason is bull*****. I could have made a much smaller one or simply ignored the vote. That's why I consider it was over defensive.
Even so I get your point about KA, because defensiveness != scum.
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@KA: Ok. I was going to ask if you have any experience with town!Cantrip that would make you react differently to 105, but I think your 163 has eliminated your doubt of him (through 160).
What do you think of Rezombied and Iso, and more specifically, Iso’s criticisms of your avoiding his questions? You could also just give a T/S list, given that you’re under a decent level of scrutiny.
@Iso: Do you have specific examples of GF’s developing thought processes? Something must’ve triggered this for you.
Does the assumption that >0 scum thinking Highroller is town imply you think Highroller is town?
I’m not sure I’ve ever been invited into a townbloc. New and exciting things!
@GF: Check my response to Cantrip in 176. I can give more references if desired, but I had a really bad tendency to replace out of scum games, and it correlated with my falling behind in them.
@Vez: What do you think of the rest of Cantrip’s 160 that wasn’t directed at you? I assume negative things, but I’d like you to go into a bit more detail.
@Highroller, yes, B. I’m curious where you’re going with this. I’m also curious what you think of GF’s third/fourth paragraphs, as I think they reflect an organically developing mindset on his Rez read.
@Terry: Reread your 178. Then ask why someone might think you’re behaving a bit… erratically. Do you think that because Cantrip has the opposite view of Highroller, it discredits what Highroller is saying?
The whole post is meh. I don't like the part about highroller as I feel it's mostly fluff. I think the question to joe is just WIFOM.
The reads list is very safe and I really dislike his push on Bur. I had expected a push on grapefruit instead, but got the low-hanging fruit of Bur.
Cantrip's usual scum post are usually well made, but these almost seem transparent to me. I need further interaction to be sure of anything, but I am would like a stronger push on Cantrip.
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The one thing I am now certain of: Vezok and Highroller are not both scum.
@Iso: no. That's silly.
@dan: Iso's criticisms of me are aggro-Iso, which happens every so often. I can't tell yet if it's scum Iso actually trying to take me down or town Iso pushing for reactions. Rezombied hasn't made an impression, let me take a look.
[5 minutes later]
Eh. Very little to go on. There is an odd bi tin their interaction with Grapefruit. #114 has a bunch on GF pinging scum and seeming disingenuous, with more backup in #116, but in #151 rezombied unvotes instead of switching to GF.
Well, Highroller - who I am currently thinking is Town - listing both Grape and Vez - who I am currently thinking are Town - as primary suspects, is not a particularly encouraging development. If we're going to be on such different wavelengths this game, that might become an issue.
I do not have the time to parse that whole enormous post, but I'm pretty sure parts of it are just wrong.
I mean, this part:
It's really telling that he's trying to take up an argument against KA calling vez over-defensive even after vez himself has stated that he was being overly defensive,
isn't right. The issue isn't whether Vez was or wasn't being "over-defensive." The issue is that voting someone for being "over-defensive" isn't a good reason to vote someone period.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Post 32: Axelrod: votes me on the grounds that the goblin’s presence in the graveyard means I’m a terrible recruiter. [I’ll admit, he’s not wrong.]
The not-so-hidden subtext of this vote was that I believed (and frankly still suspect) that you are not being 100% forthright with your role-claim. I'm prepared to accept you might have good reasons for holding something back, but I'm still watching there.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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So Vezok chose to ignore GF's warning of not giving info away. But he did it in such a way that I got the impression that he was trying to use his lack of interaction with dead bodies to get other people to come forward with more info about their roles.
It looks like he's saying 'it doesn't make sense for scum to do xyz' a lot which is bothering me. I'm gonna reread his stuff real quick: looking at just cantrips posts isolated, im probably way off base, there just isn't a whole lot there. Reexamining the back and forth between him and Vezok I'm going to:
unvote
I think I was taking things a little too far out of context with regards to Cantrip and I havent seen anything else from Vezok that bothers me.
I don't know what to make of it yet. I'm hoping someone else might have an idea.
-----
I understand you're voting for him. There just wasnt any justification for it and your suspicions dont look as obvious as you seem to think.
-----
okay:
I'm happy to say that most of the people who are not named Iso fared pretty well. The one stand out who didn't was M00S16. M00S16 has 6 posts in total, 4 of them were from page one, he hasn't posted in the last three days, and only one of his posts can really be said to have any real substance to it. I actually had forgotten he was even in the game.
Votecount incoming.
Votecount 1.1
Cantripmancer (2) - KamikazeArchon, Vezokpiraka
Grapefruit21 (1) - Highroller
Bur (1) - MOOS12
KamikazeArchon (1) - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Highroller (1) - Axelrod
rezombied (3) - Bur, Cantripmancer, Grapefruit21
Mana-screwed (3) - Ganderin_Dan, Iso, rezombied
With 12 alive, it is SEVEN to lynch.
The Deadline is (NZtime) October 30th at around 9:30pm.
If you can mindmeld with me so hard when you are scum, than mindmelding is NAI. I still think you have a higher probability of being town than scum right now, but I'm not making any rash decisions about you cause it won't end well.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
-
Vote KamikazeArchon
Who else saw what I saw?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
ALSO:
[spoiler]Mass claiming this early is almost ALWAYS designed against in role madness and on top of that, even if it wasn't, it's agains the spirit of the game. So can we stop with the Mass Claim discussions for now.
@JoeTerry: Re your 121: I'm actually getting some scum pings from Grape; is it possible that he's playing to your expectations/pocketing?
@Highroller: You glossed over the important part of my question: how many times have you seen a DAY 1 massclaim be beneficial to town? (I'm guessing, even if you don't have hard data because of MTGNews, that it's actually happened very few times, so your assertion that it will be beneficial is based on you seeing D2 or D3 massclaims turn out well. I think a lot of mods actually build things into their setup to make a D1 massclaim unattractive, although I admit that it's suggested little enough that maybe it's just assumed that a D1 massclaim won't actually be pushed.
That said, you're REALLY harping on this one point, and I haven't seen you do much of anything other than 1) claim, 2) attack Vez, 3) argue for a mass claim, EWP: 4) modgame. When can we expect to see some scumhunting? EWP: Oh, lol, and now you're spending your time identifying players who haven't provided content? Just because your post count is sky high doesn't mean you've actually contributed content to the game. Here, I'll help you out: who are the two players you suspect of being scum the most? Why? And no, "because they're against a D1 massclaim" is NOT a valid reason.
=======================================================
I feel like a TON of time has been spent on massclaim/modgaming debate, and I'm not feeling very strongly about anyone right now. So here's a very loose T-S list:
Town
• ganderin_dan - I've mindmelded on several of his posts. I generally tend to see his logic as town, but I can't remember if I've played in a game where he was scum.
• TheRealStinkyJoeTerry - I like the calm confidence I'm getting, even from the few posts he's made. The confidence comes standard with JoeTerry, but the lack of crazy handwaving/presence of calm is refreshing.
• Vezokpiraka - This feels like pretty standard Vezok. Slight possibility that he saw Kami's vote on me and Rez's suspicions(?) and tried to make my wagon a thing, but overall I think he feels like he did in Phantom Tollbooth.
• KamikazeArchon - Can't blame him for feeling suspicious of me after just having scummed with him. I'm not real thrilled with his early "are you scum with X" posts, but haven't really seen anything else concerning.
• Rezombied - I like that he called Grape out on his JoeTerry vote. I like that he examined his own reads in 151 and also his cheeky response to Iso. Feeling better about him.
• Highroller - Needs to drop the calls for massclaim and move on to playing mafia. I have a slight modgaming/mechanical reason for leaning town on him.
• Iso - Much like Seppel or kpaca, I don't expect to be able to figure him out anytime soon. I'm hoping he really will do something that points me one way or another.
• Axelrod - Hasn't contributed much other than arguing with Highroller. I agreed with him telling Kami that Vezok didn't feel like he was being overly defensive.
• MOOS12 - Need moar.
• Grapefruit21 - His vote of SJT and subsequent call for more votes felt off to me. But I don't think that scum!Grape makes the assumption that his reason for voting SJT would be more obvious. I think scum!Grape makes his reasoning more transparent, but...still leery.
• Bur - Feels...very light and noncommittal. Needs sorting.
Scum
@Dan: Can you point me to some of your recent scum games?
@Kami: Let's play devil's advocate. You think I'm scum. You've had recent experience with how I treat my scumbuddies. If I'm scum, who do you think stands a good chance to be my buddies? Why?
@Vez: You correctly identified that I've been scum A LOT recently. How do you know that this isn't just "my play" (not my scum play or my town play, but how I roll)?
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
@Iso: Not seeing what you are on Kami.
I think I want to:
Vote: Bur
@Bur: From your posts so far, I feel like I know that you:
• Felt similarly to me on Rez's #25.
• Don't think Highroller and SJT are buddies.
• Are busy and need more sleep.
Questions:
• When you asked Kami to "interact" with you in 87, what were you expecting? What does "interaction" look like? Why are you putting the onus on him to interact with you rather than you asking questions of him?
• What do you think of Rez's posts since #25?
Zombied attacked me on a baseless claim. I made a huge posting attacking him for it (it was mostly because I was bored and wanted to spur up discussion). Bur naked voted him (in character for Bur, also pretty convincing that he actually had a reason) and then you voted him for no reason (You made some weird sentences, but nothing resembling a reason). In my mind you saw Bur do it, thought I was attacking rezombied and decided another naked vote would push a lynch onto Rezobmied or at least a claim. It was a very tactical vote and even the text you made with your vote shows you thought about it for some time.
Your next post was meh, with a bit too much fluff about the Team mafia game. It's not really out of the ordinary for any alignment for you, but it's not exactly a great place to be.
And now you come up with this apology for attacking you, by claiming your scum game is very similar to your town game.
I'm not as sure as I usually am about my vote, but I think it's in the right place for now.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
unvote
Cantrip's responses to me were quite good. I feel like there would have been stronger emotion if he was scum, and I think I like how he approached Bur. Normally I'd be disliking the inconsistency on Bur being "needs sorting" but then getting the vote at the end, but having played scum with Cantrip, I think he would have specifically tried for consistency if he was faking reads; this looks more like a stream-of-consciousness.
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
This reads as pandering to the town.
I'm under the impression that you're experienced enough that somebody you've never played with's arguments in favor of something really shouldn't be affecting your opinion this much. This reads as bravado for the sake of looking confident.
This reads as Kami trying really hard to get people to townread him. That said, I do at least like that he called vezok out, here.
-
At any rate, this post sent up red flags and alarm bells for me. It doesn't feel like it comes from a townie mindset.
Choo choo no brakes etc.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Eh, Highroller is probably Town just for pushing the mass-claim thing so hard. Like, it is theoretically possible he's scum and he specifically knows from his role (and his teammates? Do we know if the scum had any pre-day chatting?) that a mass claim would be spectacularly bad for the Town, that he could try a gambit like that. But it would still be a rather large gambit, and I'm feeling the strength of his convictions.
I don't feel anything else right now, because I have only skimmed everything else. I will attempt to place an informed vote sometimes tomorrow. But NO PROMISES.
thanks for addressing my other issues with your play
you should vote for KA. be one of the cool kids.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just gonna leave this here.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What about it?
I read KA as scummy but not as scummy as Rezombie.
Also, what did you see?
I know for a fact I was lynched Day 1 as a mafia in an X-Men-themed mafia game because I claimed something that was immediately seen through by someone with a lot more X-Men knowledge that I had (not a high bar to jump over). Beyond that, day one claims happened at about the rate they do here, and the ’News' mafia board went down a long while ago so I wouldn’t be able to go back and view all of the games I was a mod or player in. I do remember several mafia games it would have broken, including my own. Also, once again, and I really can't stress this enough, (and don't anyone complain to me about how I'm still going on about Day 1 claiming, you all complain that I'm talking about it and then keep bringing it up in conversations with me) if you're against a Day 1 claim, but you're in favor of a mass claim any other day, that is completely illogical.
I haven’t seen you do much of anything period. If you’re claiming I’ve only done four things this game, that means I’ve done about as many things as you’ve made posts.
Also, did you miss the part about Grapefruit? Did you miss the part where I commented on the case against rezombied?
Are you talking about how I pointed out that M00S12 was an inactive player which resulted in a necessary mod prod? Yeah, how terrible. Don’t know how I sleep at night.
Dude, the game's been going for a week. You've made six posts. Don't lash out in an attempt to deflect the 100% justified criticism that is being sent your way for lurking.
ganderin_dan, I have a question for you with regards to this exchange.
Is your role:
A) A role that syncs up with one of the stock mafia roles that can be found in games (example: inspector, doctor, bodyguard, vigilante, mayor, etc.)
B) A role that somewhat resembles one of the stock mafia roles that can be found in games (example: you have more than one ability, maybe one of your abilities relates to the above while the other is totally different)
C) A role that does not at all resemble one of the stock mafia roles, and is instead unique to this game (example: your role pretty much exclusively does stuff with the graveyard or some other mechanic unique to this game like colors, card types, etc.)
Also, I think we really need to pay more attention to TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, because either he's mafia or he's town, and if he's town, he's a massive troll/loose cannon.
He might be town or he might be scum.
I don't really care if someone is a loose cannon or not. They can be solved later.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Why did Cantrip’s scum analysis bother you? Does his more recent post change your opinion at all?
@Iso Are you happy with rezombied’s response to you?
@Cantrip Here’s Secret Neighbors. Prior to that, you’re gonna have to go all the way back to Pleasantville in 2013.
What were you hoping to accomplish with your question to Vezok?
@Highroller My role, at its core, is fairly standard and strictly functions based off of mechanics unique to this game.
@KA Would you expect more emotion out of Cantrip’s scum game specifically, or just from scum in general in that position? Why?
So I'm town or scum... Genius!
BUT IF I AM TOWN... you're suggesting that I'm a massive troll or loose cannon!? Where does this even come from? Just a few posts ago, Cantrip put me on top of his T/S because of the exact opposite of what you're saying.
EVEN IF I WAS A MASSIVE TOWN TROLL CANNON... what do you suggest we do about, you want to Lynch me? EVEN THOUGH I'M TOWN!?
It's weird that you feel this way about me considering my stance on you and your opinion differs pretty drastically from other people's.
Ok, now on to your other post (#173)... why do you care so much about Dan's role? Five bucks says you have a scum role that is dependent on other player's subtype.
Well, it means Highroller's at least telling the truth about part of his role.
no ur welcome
Okay, so what you're saying is if I rephrase my post to say, "KA is scum because his mindset is [blah blah etc.]" rather than "KA is scum because this post reads like his mindset is [blah blah etc.]", you'll respond to my points about you?
If so, can we skip the pedantry? Because I'm really not convinced you just don't know how to respond to me and save face, here.
No, but I'm still sort of trying to parse where his head is at, and with SUDDENLY, DEADLINE looming, I think KA's a better bet to resolve for toDay.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll start catching up now, can't guarantee I'll finish it tonight (I need to be sleeping in 45 mins) but I'll try to post some actual content tomorrow by latest.
@Bur hopefully you're exams went better than you think.
@Axelrod That's not too dissimilar to my breakdown (I'm even lower on Rezombie's reaction). What do you make of KA's reaction to the (extended) reaction? What about Terry's?
I think Cantrip's 160 puts him back in the leaning town category, but I thought he was town all through Phantom Tollbooth until he got caught. This is absolutely Town Vez. That's all I've got so far.
@Iso: Speculation on my mindset, in general, doesn't merit a response. If you ask me a question I'll answer it. If you claim I did X when I did Y, I'll probably comment on it. But if you claim I did X, and I really did do X, but you just add some speculation about why I did X, there's no point in commenting on that most of the time. And here, the X is just "I made those posts" which, duh, yes I did make those posts.
I think I like where Cantrip's head is at. He's being a bit opaque but in a way that feels like he's trying to generate reactions and not hide his opinions. I also like that he naked voted Rezombie and didn't back down. I also like his poking at people ignoring his naked vote. Drawing scrutiny to oneself ins't a hard town tell but it's >rand to be town.
Leaning towards Highroller being town, he's stubborn and the proposal is sucking all the air out of the thread but it's such a weird hill to die on. Especially as a first game back after a long hiatus. Like I could see his play coming from scum but I have a hard time seeing it in this situation and this way. In particular pairing the random lynching order bringing up and dropping just feels so natural. Such a bizarre thing to propose and immeadiately drop when challenged if scum. Like if he's scum this all had to be preplanned and if he had this random lynching idea in mind ahead of time and really believed it I'm not sure why he'd bring it up at all. And if it was a discussion starter he didn't believe in it's such a weird thing to bring up to immeadiately drop. I'm still paranoid about his quickness to call anyone against the mass claim scum and his focus on it could easily be a distraction tool, but that paranoia doesn't really make sense when looking at the possible mindsets behind bringing the mass claim and random lynching up.
Bur is a nearly empty mixed bag. I liked his naked vote and sticking by it (similar to cantrip in that regard) but some other parts feel forced. In particular his poke at KA to interact with him. Weird targeting and nonexistant follow through. Poking at KA given his cryptic can't see the whole picture yet posts makes sense but selecting him only is bleh.
Going to talk about KA and Terry together. I really dislike both their reactions to the Rezombie/Vez stuff. KA attacks Vez for being overly defensive. I didn't feel Vez was particularly defensive, but more importantly I don't think that should be a scum indicator. I don't feel like the attack was well founded, Vez is routinely argumentative, and KA should pick up on both of those things given his familiarity with Vez. And his continuing too early to tell schtick feels the opposite of Cantrip's lack of clarity, avoiding comment and shutting down discussion. As for Terry his vote feels so gotcha. I know that's standard Terry but it's very opportunistic and so shadeful. At some level attacking KA for their tone while mimicking it for effect. He doens't engage on the substance of why KA's vote is bad or really do anything with it other than attack the style while copying it. I don't know what to make of his reaction towards me. Been trying to think on it and I can't really wrap my head around either POV for thinking I was needling him to engage him.
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
I definitely agree regarding feeling that way about vezok. I'll have to look back on that post by Cantrip and see what about it makes you think he's town.
Cool. I'm claiming you did X in Y way because Z. Prove me wrong.
You should probably be scumreading yourself, at this point.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
-
After re-reading #160, I've decided I also like Cantrip and that I probably need to re-read Grapefruit.
Cantrip, dan, want to form a townbloc with me?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I keep going back to Cantrip's list in #160. I like the positioning of most of his bottom players (with the exception that I feel KA should be in there, somewhere) and looking back on Grapefruit's posts, a team that contains Grapefruit/KA or Grapefruit/Axelrod wouldn't surprise me at this juncture (not that the two are mutually exclusive, but that I'm hesitant in thinking the answer would be so obvious at this juncture, and I do kind of like Axel's approach to Highroller's claim, though I admit that's NAI).
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Let's not throw stones.
Dude, you’ve clearly been acting a fool for the entire day. The question is are you clowning because you love those trololols, or is it so you’ll skate under people’s radars?
Thank you. I’d like to take a moment to clarify what you mean by “and strictly functions off mechanics in this game.” The two abilities I’ve claimed both are unique to this game, as they deal with the graveyard, not a mechanic found in other games. These abilities, while strictly functioning off mechanics in the game, are decidedly non-standard. You are, by contrast, claiming at least a somewhat standard town role, indicating you have at least one ability that functions at least somewhat like a town role that might be found in another mafia game, which I designated as a “B” category
Correct?
______________________________________________________________________________
Alright, so, let's talk about day one.
So far, five significant events have happened today:
1. My roleclaim and the resultant reactions
2. The discussion of the merits and flaws of claiming and to what extent
3. The movement against rezombied
4. The movement against KamikazeArchon, and
5. The movement against cantripmancer.
These all should be scrutinized.
Let’s talk about them.
1. My roleclaim and the resultant reactions
The biggest things to come out of this have their own bullet points and will be discussed later. Here’s a list of the notes I’ve taken on as a sort of overview, more for reference in future days than anything else.
Post 21: Iso says he believes his vote on me was in the right place.
Post 22: Bur asks why I chose to claim.
Post 24: vezokpiraka says, “Don't know what to make of highroller's claim. It doesn't help my role.”
Post 25: rezombied responds to Bur’s question with “I'm interested, too. Seems odd coming out the gate with it and I have a few theories.”
Posts 29-31: ganderin_dan, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, and Cantripmancer post without reaction.
Post 32: Axelrod: votes me on the grounds that the goblin’s presence in the graveyard means I’m a terrible recruiter. [I’ll admit, he’s not wrong.]
Post 35: KamikazeArchon posts without reaction.
Post 37: rezombied says he’s anticipating my response to Bur.
Posts 46-47: M00S12 posts without reaction.
Post 50: Grapefruit21 asks vezokpiraka if he thinks I’m lying.
Post 51: cantripmancer responds asking Grapefruit why he wants to explore whether I’m lying. No reaction of his own to my claim.
Post 52: vezokpiraka replies, “I do not think highroller is lying and I think it's a moderately good thing he claimed. There are probably multiple roles that need to use the goblin he creates as a resource.”
Post 53: Grapefruit writes, “And I'm not particularly curious about highroller's claim. I'm curious why Vez didn't know what to think of it but had so little to say about it. I agree his reactions to Rezomibe felt solid but I still am weirdly pinged the way he felt compelled to talk about Highroller's claim but didn't say anything in doing so.”
Post 55-57: Back and forth questioning between Grapefruit and vezok.
Post 59: Iso unvotes, cites need to reexamine things.
Post 60: I claim my second ability.
Post 61: Grapefruit posts the following, “Well that is interesting. Maybe there is a Deathrite Shaman in this game (I figured the cards used in the art just wouldn't be in the game). Still expect a Yawgmoth's will. Dig through time or treasure cruise could play off that as well. I'm drawing blanks on other banned cards that care about graveyards. Nothing in dredge except Bazaar is banned anywhere these days. And Bazaar wouldn't care about the cards in the GY already. Hmmm…”
Post 99: Iso posts, “Why are you ignoring the fact that Highroller is probably a Neutral once a certain death threshold per each/any alignment is reached? Because that's exactly what I read his most recent role spew as.”
Post 111: Axelrod posts an analysis of claimed role abilities, expressing distrust/disbelief, and asks some questions regarding them.
Post 117: My response to Axelrod and Iso.
Post 123: Iso expresses disbelief in my response.
Post 179: Iso expresses his belief that I am at least partially telling the truth based on the presence of Mon’s Goblin Raiders
2. The discussion of the merits and flaws of claiming and to what extent
While the debate about claiming has for the most part been associated with me, for obvious reasons, it is important to note that the discussion actually began much earlier.
After I claimed on post 19, Grapefruit posted on Post 20 that we should not claim anything else based on flavor, given that his role cares about card types.
vezok would shortly after post saying he did not know what to make of my claim, saying it’s not useful to his role. This, as we all know by now, prompted rezombied to vote vezok, as vezok had gone against Grapefruit.
We already know this, why am I pointing it out? Well, what is fascinating to me are vezok’s responses to this. Consider post 34:
vezok replies on post 39:
vezok also doubles down on his questioning of rezombied’s opinion on his vote, asking why he doesn’t care, but more on that later.
What should be taken into account is something vezok says in this post:
The part about claiming something “remotely important” is noteworthy.
Recall the impassioned defense by vezok, in which he states he supports roleclaiming all of the time, and when questioned by rezombied what he hoped to achieve, he stated that he sought to give more information to the town. And yet, now vezok is trying to claim that he didn’t actually give up any significant or remotely important information. This is completely contradictory.
So then we get to ganderin_dan’s post:
Which vez responds with:
Reread that again. “For example, this game does not need people claiming just based on what grape is saying.”
Why is Grapefruit someone that vezok says he doesn’t need to listen to when rezombied scrutinizes him for claiming part of his role, yet when the scrutiny comes from the opposite direction, all of a sudden listening to Grape becomes extremely important?
“I do this kind of stuff all the time! I love claiming! Claim early, claim often! I don’t need to listen to Grape, he can’t tell me what to do!”
“So why don’t you advocate mass claims more often?”
“Well we definitely shouldn’t do it in this game! Look at what Grape posted!”
Again, we’re all supposed to pretend that this isn’t contradictory?
I know people are going to try to strawman this argument by saying that I’m just trying to make vezok suspicious because I don’t like that he doesn’t support the mass claim. But this is garbage. The suspicious element is not that vezok does not agree with a mass claim, it’s his reversal of positions at the drop of a hat (or, more accurately, at the drop of ganderin_dan’s post). Irrespective of what you think of the merits and flaws of a mass claim, the fact that Grapefruit goes from someone vezok ignores because he’s just doing his thing, to saying that Grapefruit’s post is the reason people shouldn’t claim is a total 180.
It really does seem like vezok is fishing for information here while trying to avoid claiming anything substantial about his own role. If vezok was so adamant about the merits of claiming, Grapefruit be damned, then he probably should have claimed more. Yet as soon as ganderin_dan posted his statement, vezok switches, and all of a sudden Grapefruit’s post becomes authoritative and the reason why people shouldn’t claim.
He later goes so far as to say this:
What happened here?
vezok started out from I support all kinds of claims, I hope to gain information from the town, I’ll do whatever I want, why should Grapefruit’s opinion matter more than mine, and then subsequently 180’ed to, it’s not a good idea to claim, people shouldn’t claim. What happened here? Grapefruit’s post? The one that vezok was so comfortable ignoring?
Or was it ganderin_dan’s scrutiny?
Also, again, we see this lukewarmness about the whole thing. We see adamant support for claiming of all kinds, yet vezok is reluctant to claim any more about his role than he doesn’t use the graveyard. We see vezok later switch and say, No claiming, claiming is bad, Grape said so. Oh, by the way, if anyone wants to claim, that’s totally fine. You can claim if you want to. Don’t let me stand in your way.
It all adds up to a lot of nothing makes sense. As gandarin_dan points out, vezok completely contradicts his own logic, which he then attempts to walk back and acts like he’s not completely switching his position.
We then go to post 73. vezok had previously stated that mass claiming would hinder the town. I asked why. vezok responds with
So we have a guy who, when voted against, repeatedly states about how much he loves claiming and how much he believes in sharing information with the town… until he suddenly believes the exact opposite.
3. The movement against rezombied
Overview of relevant posts.
Immediately afterward, on post 26, Bur voted rezombied without explanation, a vote that he continues to maintain even now.
vezokpiraka responded to rezombied in post 28, claiming rezombied was faulty on multiple lines, including that what he claimed was inconsequential and insignificant, and that he didn’t need to follow Grapefruit’s advice anyway. On post 31, cantripmancer votes rezombied, also without explanation. rezombied responds to vezok on post 33, saying that he voted vezok because it looked like vezok was trying to get people to ignore Grapefruit and claim stuff about their roles, and then asked why vezok ignored Grapefruit’s advice.
Post 34 is particularly noteworthy. It is important to note that vezok will later admit openly that he was, in fact, being overly defensive in this post (post 52). Keep this in mind.
In Post 34, vezok proceeds to go off on a tirade against rezombied, and then asks a question that will prove a key one in this day,
Afterward, KamikazeArchon votes vezok for being too offensive (Post 35). Axelrod subsequently responds (Post 36):
rezombied then responds to vezok, saying that vezok seems to be trying to encourage the town to roleclaim, at least partially, by his actions, and questions what vezok was hoping to achieve, in addition responding to vizor’s question of why he thinks people are voting for him with “I don’t care” (Post 37). Also, in post 38, TheRealStinkyJoeTerry votes KamikazeArchon for being “too offensive.”
vezok responds in post 39, claiming that he wasn’t trying to influence people, didn’t claim anything “remotely important,” and then proceeds to double down on the question he asked previously.
Grapefruit responds on post 50. Of particular note is this quote, “After Phantom Tollbooth you're going to tell me that being defensive is a scummy trait for Vez? What exactly are you pointing to as defensiveness here?”
cantripmancer posts asking why people are only questioning one of two of his naked votes, while still giving no explanation (post 51). In post 52, vezok addresses the accusation by KA by saying, “As a sidenote: KA's is right. I was being extremely defensive because I was bored and wanted to stir ***** up. He's wrong about that making me scum though.” Grapefruit appears to buy this explanation.
KA posts in post 62, saying that vezok was not defensive in Phantom Tollbooth mafia.
In post 64, Bur explains his vote,
Grapefruit responds to KA in post 68, saying that he believes vezok was defensive.
rezombied responds to vezok in post 72. In it, he points out the same fault in vezok’s logic that I’ve pointed out, going on about how he’s giving important information only to say that the information isn’t important later. He also defends his answer about not caring about the role.
Grapefruit then posts in post 75, asking why rezombied doesn’t care why people are voting for him, and also, why does he think that vezok saying his role does not use the graveyard is valuable information.
cantripmancer explains his vote in post 91, saying “I saw his vote on Vez for the soft aspect-claim as too extreme, like scum trying to attack on something they thought was more significant than it really was.”
rezombied responds to vezok and Grapefruit in post 114.
TheRealStinkyJoeTerry posts in 118, noting that Kami voted vezok for being too aggressive, and that this was a sign that Kami was mafia, and that rezombied and Kami are both mafia.
Grapefruit21 then votes for rezombied in post 149, summarizing the case against him in three major points:
A. Voting vex for ignoring Grape’s advice
B. Not caring why people were voting for him
C. Not pushing Highroller
rezombied posts again in post 151, reiterating that he believed vezok was saying his role information in an attempt to get others to reveal it as well.
vezok posts in 162, again stating that he posted an overly aggressive post, again claiming it was mostly out of boredom.
I believe I got all the relevant posts there.
So, analysis:
I don’t feel the case against rezombied has any merit. The summary as provided by Grapefruit was:
A. Voting vez for ignoring Grape’s advice
B. Not caring why people were voting for him
C. Not pushing Highroller
I’ve already stated that B is stupid. It was page one of day one and the votes against him were both posted without any explanation. If the people who themselves voted didn’t care enough to explain themselves, there was no reason for rezombied to care, and again, it was page one of day one. Votes are passed out like candy on page one of day one. I would have said the exact same thing, and for Grapefruit to keep pressing rezombied on this issue makes no sense.
Now, let’s look at point C. Point C seems to be referring to rezombied saying that he wanted to hear more from me with regards to Bur’s question of why I claimed. Now, for reference, I answered Bur’s question in post 60, rezombied’s next post was on post 72. You could see this as suspicious, but I don’t, because I think I’d made it abundantly clear why I claimed right off the bat. I’d even questioned vez, the guy who previously went off on the merits of roleclaiming, why he wasn’t in favor of more roleclaiming. So point C doesn’t read as suspicious at all, and it’s baffling why Grapefruit is harping about it.
Finally we have point A, voting vez for going against Grape’s advice. rezombied claims that he thought vez was doing this as a ploy to encourage other people to claim their roles. I read this as being honest, and I can understand where he’s coming from with regards to this. After someone says don’t claim, someone then claims a detail with regards to graveyard interaction in their roles, promotes someone else talking about whether the role has graveyard interaction.
To conclude, I see no merit to this bandwagon.
4. The movement against KamikazeArchon
Thank goodness this one is not as involved.
Skip to page 4. Iso votes Kamikaze in 157. He then explains this in 165, saying that KamikazeArchon seems to be trying very hard to get people to townread him by pandering in post 148. He also cites KamikazeArchon displaying an out-of-character bravado.
Then Grapefruit21 posts in 188, saying that KA attacked vez for being overly defensive, which does not sit well with Grapefruit as he disagrees, claiming the attack was not well-founded.
And Iso recently continued his suspicion.
Of particular note here is that TheRealStinkyJoeTerry and Grapefruit21 have attempted to cast suspicion on KamikazeArchon for his statement that vezok was too defensive…
… even though vezok wrote this on post 52.
He even restated this in post 162.
Yet, Grapefruit12 still posts that he doesn’t feel like vezok was too defensive, and TheRealStinkyJoeTerry has never actually acknowledged this, nor reversed his vote, but instead doubled down. Ample suspicion needs to be levied straight at these two.
Iso’s posts, to his credit, doesn’t hinge on the claim that voting vezok for being too defensive was out of left field. That said, I don’t know what KA’s previous mafia game activity was, so I don’t have anything to compare him to with regards to being unusually confident. I will have to review Iso’s post further.
5. The movement against cantripmancer
This is quite short, thank goodness.
cantripmancer posts this:
In post 110, KamikazeArchon says that cantripmancer reads as mafia in post 105.
rezombied casts suspicion on cantrip in post 114:
vezokpiraka votes cantripmancer in post 115,
cantrip posts in 160 saying his mafia game is the same as his town game.
vezok states in post 162 that he suspects cantrip of bandwagoning with regards to rezombied, and this vote was too tactical.
In post 163, KamikazeArchon unvotes, saying that he’s satisfied with cantrip’s statements.
I don’t know what to make of this one. I don’t know anything about cantrip’s normal playstyle. I do agree with vezok that it’s suspicious that cantrip voted rezombied, but I also think the same reasons behind that equally apply to Bur.
So, all of that taken into account, I'm going to continue to vote Grapefruit. It really seems like he's looking for some person to kill. It's really telling that he's trying to take up an argument against KA calling vez overdefensive even after vez himself has stated that he was being overly defensive, and his arguments against rezombied hold no merit.
Still very suspicious of vez.
Suspicion in the way of Terry for his going after KA, even doubling down on it after vez outright stated he was overly defensive.
Okay so most of this post is solid and was a good read. But I want to focus on these two parts.
So on the Rezombie part point B is weak. I'll readily admit it. It's not specifically about him not caring about votes, it's his attitude of "I don't care." He's not engaging and doing so in a way that's shutting down discussion and not showing the inquisitiveness that I'd expect from town. That he doesn't care that there are votes on him is a town look, his disinterest in trying to figure out why those votes are there is a negative. For example I don't care at all that your vote is on me, I do care about why it is because it gives me insight into your thought processes. It's supsicious that Rezombie has no curiosity on anything beyond Vez's claim and whether or not my suspicions were obvious.
The second point you break down ties into the above. With Vez's "claim" he was fully engaged and willing to nitpick fully but with yours there was minimum initial interest and no follow through. You mention you don't find this suspect because of how clearly you thought you explained yourself. Given that almost every other player was directly asking you questions about it I find Rezombie just dropping it to be strange. We know he's not someone who lacks follow through (see his back and forth with Vez) so it's just strange that given his expressed aversion to any information leaking and things looking like bait for more claims that he'd have 0 issue with your play this game. It makes his push on Vez make no sense to me. I don't see how you can have a problem with one but not the other. And this also answers your question. A and C aren't really two separate points to me. They show the break in his mindset.
On Vezok's defensiveness: I don't really care what Vez says: that wasn't the most defensive I've seen him (or Kami because we've been in games together that I'm thinking of) but even setting that value judgement aside KA's only point is defensiveness. I find it shocking that he would try to read Vez off that. He denies that he felt Vez was defensive at all in Phantom Tollbooth which I find hard to believe. When Vez is saying he was being intentionally defensive I think he's employing faulty self meta and underestimates how defensively he normally reads.
I agreed with KA that I was being over defensive because rezombied voted me and gave a one line reason and I made a huge post about how his reason is bull*****. I could have made a much smaller one or simply ignored the vote. That's why I consider it was over defensive.
Even so I get your point about KA, because defensiveness != scum.
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What do you think of Rezombied and Iso, and more specifically, Iso’s criticisms of your avoiding his questions? You could also just give a T/S list, given that you’re under a decent level of scrutiny.
@Iso: Do you have specific examples of GF’s developing thought processes? Something must’ve triggered this for you.
Does the assumption that >0 scum thinking Highroller is town imply you think Highroller is town?
I’m not sure I’ve ever been invited into a townbloc. New and exciting things!
@GF: Check my response to Cantrip in 176. I can give more references if desired, but I had a really bad tendency to replace out of scum games, and it correlated with my falling behind in them.
@Vez: What do you think of the rest of Cantrip’s 160 that wasn’t directed at you? I assume negative things, but I’d like you to go into a bit more detail.
@Highroller, yes, B. I’m curious where you’re going with this. I’m also curious what you think of GF’s third/fourth paragraphs, as I think they reflect an organically developing mindset on his Rez read.
@Terry: Reread your 178. Then ask why someone might think you’re behaving a bit… erratically. Do you think that because Cantrip has the opposite view of Highroller, it discredits what Highroller is saying?
The reads list is very safe and I really dislike his push on Bur. I had expected a push on grapefruit instead, but got the low-hanging fruit of Bur.
Cantrip's usual scum post are usually well made, but these almost seem transparent to me. I need further interaction to be sure of anything, but I am would like a stronger push on Cantrip.
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@Iso: no. That's silly.
@dan: Iso's criticisms of me are aggro-Iso, which happens every so often. I can't tell yet if it's scum Iso actually trying to take me down or town Iso pushing for reactions. Rezombied hasn't made an impression, let me take a look.
[5 minutes later]
Eh. Very little to go on. There is an odd bi tin their interaction with Grapefruit. #114 has a bunch on GF pinging scum and seeming disingenuous, with more backup in #116, but in #151 rezombied unvotes instead of switching to GF.
I do not have the time to parse that whole enormous post, but I'm pretty sure parts of it are just wrong.
I mean, this part: isn't right. The issue isn't whether Vez was or wasn't being "over-defensive." The issue is that voting someone for being "over-defensive" isn't a good reason to vote someone period.