@KA on a scale of 1 being no confidence to 10 being you have a red cop check how confident are/were you in Vez being scum?
@Dan thanks, that fits my imagination but I'll still take a look.
@Axelrod @Vezok I got caught in the weeds because of Vez and KA's shared meta and Vez's general demeanor but that is the point. For most people (but especially Vezok) defensiveness is NAI.
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
Ooooook, but I mentioned that it wasn't serious in a comment in this game. I mean, this response would normally have satisfied me, but I mentioned it in #51, as part of the conversation that you and Vezok were having (directed at Vez, but still, right after you posted in #50). So you asking "it wasn't a serious proposal?" at this point feels off.
I read your iso in Neighbors (and Vez's also, bonus), and I don't know that I really see a significant difference between your posts there and your posts in Tollbooth (although you had the lowest post count in Neighbors, which backs up your self-meta that you post less as scum). I...don't feel like looking at a 5-year old game is going to give me much of a read on current-you, so so much for easily sorting you on meta.
Quote from Dan »
What were you hoping to accomplish with your question to Vezok?
Just trying to give him a framework to reassess, given that he seems to be reading me primarily off of meta. He seems pretty staunch in his suspicions, though, so I'll keep on keeping on and we'll see where it goes. The meta read from Neighbors reinforced that this is town!Vez; he felt more...frantic? in Neighbors.
I think I like where Cantrip's head is at. He's being a bit opaque but in a way that feels like he's trying to generate reactions and not hide his opinions. I also like that he naked voted Rezombie and didn't back down. I also like his poking at people ignoring his naked vote. Drawing scrutiny to oneself ins't a hard town tell but it's >rand to be town.
What do you mean, I "didn't back down" on Rez?
Quote from Grape »
Bur is a nearly empty mixed bag. I liked his naked vote and sticking by it (similar to cantrip in that regard) but some other parts feel forced. In particular his poke at KA to interact with him. Weird targeting and nonexistant follow through. Poking at KA given his cryptic can't see the whole picture yet posts makes sense but selecting him only is bleh.
Ok, again, what do you mean that Bur is "sticking by" his Rez vote?
Quote from Grape »
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
I...no longer believe that you are reading this game.
Uhhh, interesting thought. I'm down with Dan...still undecided on you?
@Highroller: I retract my poor comments on your lack of content. At minimum, pot-kettle, so definitely not fair for me to go there. FWIW, I'm 90% sure you're town. If you're scum, your "return to Mafia, push a D1 mass claim because my scumbuddies and I all have mod-given confirmable false claims and we'll wreck you" plan is freaking genius. And you're putting forth a carp-ton of effort, which I usually see as +town (even though I know it should be NAI).
@Axelrod: I feel like you're dancing around giving actual reads. 183 is just +town/-town one word labels within the context of responses to Highroller's claim. It feels like you're trying to look like you're participating without committing. Can you explain why you feel each response is pro-town or anti-town? And your question in 167 about "do we know if scum had pre-game chat" feels intentionally disingenuous. You've played in many mafia games, correct? Of recent ones on this site, how many do you know of that DIDN'T give scum a chance to do some coordination pre-game (or didn't have D1/all game scum daychat)?
@KA on a scale of 1 being no confidence to 10 being you have a red cop check how confident are/were you in Vez being scum?
Was at a 3. Now at a 1.
Increasingly liking Cantrip. Maybe I can build a townpile and POE the scum?
Why are you asking and not doing? More importantly, are you really not suspicious of anyone (or, specifically, not more suspicious of some players than others)?
What do you think of Grape's "scale of 1-10" question to you? Why do you think he asked that, what do you think he gains from it, and what do you think it says about his alignment?
Well, Highroller - who I am currently thinking is Town - listing both Grape and Vez - who I am currently thinking are Town - as primary suspects, is not a particularly encouraging development. If we're going to be on such different wavelengths this game, that might become an issue.
I do not have the time to parse that whole enormous post, but I'm pretty sure parts of it are just wrong.
I mean, this part:
It's really telling that he's trying to take up an argument against KA calling vez over-defensive even after vez himself has stated that he was being overly defensive,
isn't right. The issue isn't whether Vez was or wasn't being "over-defensive." The issue is that voting someone for being "over-defensive" isn't a good reason to vote someone period.
High roller also thinks I'm trolling dead weight too, so I wouldn't let it bother you too much. Speaking of which, I'll stop trolling and make some meat posts.
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
Ooooook, but I mentioned that it wasn't serious in a comment in this game. I mean, this response would normally have satisfied me, but I mentioned it in #51, as part of the conversation that you and Vezok were having (directed at Vez, but still, right after you posted in #50). So you asking "it wasn't a serious proposal?" at this point feels off.
Okay, I need to take better notes. Looking back you did clarify that. I even must have noticed because I refer to you doing it to stir up reactions in 53 but before you bringing it up now I don't remember you saying it.
I think I like where Cantrip's head is at. He's being a bit opaque but in a way that feels like he's trying to generate reactions and not hide his opinions. I also like that he naked voted Rezombie and didn't back down. I also like his poking at people ignoring his naked vote. Drawing scrutiny to oneself ins't a hard town tell but it's >rand to be town.
What do you mean, I "didn't back down" on Rez?
Quote from Grape »
Bur is a nearly empty mixed bag. I liked his naked vote and sticking by it (similar to cantrip in that regard) but some other parts feel forced. In particular his poke at KA to interact with him. Weird targeting and nonexistant follow through. Poking at KA given his cryptic can't see the whole picture yet posts makes sense but selecting him only is bleh.
Ok, again, what do you mean that Bur is "sticking by" his Rez vote?
I liked that you both justified your naked votes. And the reasoning was similar to what had pinged me.
Quote from Grape »
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
I...no longer believe that you are reading this game.
... This is getting embarrassing. This is at least 4 games in a row I've faced that specific accusation. I don't know. I remembered you asking Dan a meta question but I posted without looking what it was.
@KA on a scale of 1 being no confidence to 10 being you have a red cop check how confident are/were you in Vez being scum?
Was at a 3. Now at a 1.
Increasingly liking Cantrip. Maybe I can build a townpile and POE the scum?
Why are you asking and not doing?
Whynotboth.jpeg
More importantly, are you really not suspicious of anyone (or, specifically, not more suspicious of some players than others)?
Not much. I would squint a bit at rezombied, but there's nothing solid there.
What do you think of Grape's "scale of 1-10" question to you? Why do you think he asked that, what do you think he gains from it, and what do you think it says about his alignment?
I think trying to analyze it with such fine detail is pointless. There's a bunch of plausible reasons, including both scum and town motivations, and when there's a bunch of plausible options I'd basically just be guessing, and it would be a bad thing to build any conclusions around.
Maybe later it'll be part of a pattern that is useful.
Day 1 is mostly just an extended RVS. Sometimes you get people caught in straight-up lies or whatever - see Killmatronix in Phantom Tollbooth - but more commonly it's a bunch of hunches.
Page 1:
Ok, post #19 Highroller claims Goblin Recruiter, he claims it really hard. Like over-emphasizing the fact that he is a CREATURE. Also, I find it interesting that the card itself doesn't actually put anything in the graveyard, it puts cards on top of your deck, but his ability puts cards in the graveyard.
The very next post Grape comes in and says we shouldn't be claiming because his role cares about card types, which seems like a pro-town chime in to me. Vezo, says that it doesn't help him and in post #25, Rezom breaks the RVS seal and votes Vezo for that very comment. Like, it's a really bad vote. Super forced. Bur votes him for it, and Vezo replies pretty reasonably I thought (#28). Cantrip also vote Rezom shortly after. Now even though Rezom earned a couple votes for it, Rezom still tries to justify it and again acts like Grape's comment to keep it in our pants is the rule of the lord. It's insanely bad by Rezom, but somehow, Kami comes in and counters with a vote on Vezo (#35) for being too defensive. It's a really weird side to take in all of this... almost like it's forced. Axel calls him on it, but Rezom's next post is even more out of this world (#37). He starts off talking like Vezo was trying to force claims out of people. Then he quotes veto saying that he would behave this way as either alignment and Rezom transforms that into saying that vezo was saying that he does it every game. This whole post is just a mess. Then I vote Kami because his vote on Vezo stunk like BS. Then Kami, throws some shade on Axel for calling him out on it. Then GD for doing the same thing. A couple players like M005 (#46) and Grape (#50) don't seem to get Bur's vote on Rezom like I do. Grape's post is a bit more interesting. He questions Kami's vote on Vezo and he questions me for my vote on Kami. Both seemed pretty obvious reasons to vote to me, so I'm not sure how to take this. I think maybe grape just was skimming and didn't really follow the flow. I do kind of worry that he was just skimming to make weak scum cases while not really trying to solve.
Ok, so that's how I read Day 1. I'll work on a Day 2 recap later tonight or tomorrow.
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
Ooooook, but I mentioned that it wasn't serious in a comment in this game. I mean, this response would normally have satisfied me, but I mentioned it in #51, as part of the conversation that you and Vezok were having (directed at Vez, but still, right after you posted in #50). So you asking "it wasn't a serious proposal?" at this point feels off.
Okay, I need to take better notes. Looking back you did clarify that. I even must have noticed because I refer to you doing it to stir up reactions in 53 but before you bringing it up now I don't remember you saying it.
If you're town, I hope you can understand how this could pretty easily be construed as you being scum, skimming the thread, and tossing off casual comments. IMO, unless you're of a specific subset of players, not reading the thread is more +scum and careful scrutiny of posts is more +town.
Quote from Grapefruit »
I liked that you both justified your naked votes. And the reasoning was similar to what had pinged me.
The reason that I ask is because after I was asked about my Rez vote and explained it, I pretty much dropped pursuing him and a few posts later said I was feeling better about Rez and voted Bur. Bur explained his vote and then...hasn't pursued Rez since in any way (mostly because he's been PTAPing, but still). So I was confused that you would say that I didn't back down (I backed off and voted elsewhere) and that Bur is sticking to his vote (Bur hasn't really posted anything of substance since then), as I don't really see either. That said, iirc, English is not your first language, is it? That and your explanation make me feel better about your comments.
Quote from Grapefruit »
Quote from Grape »
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
I...no longer believe that you are reading this game.
... This is getting embarrassing. This is at least 4 games in a row I've faced that specific accusation. I don't know. I remembered you asking Dan a meta question but I posted without looking what it was.
Can you point me to some of these occurrences? It just feels like you're lolposting and not really reading, which doesn't jive with what I remember of your play.
What do you think of Grape's "scale of 1-10" question to you? Why do you think he asked that, what do you think he gains from it, and what do you think it says about his alignment?
I think trying to analyze it with such fine detail is pointless. There's a bunch of plausible reasons, including both scum and town motivations, and when there's a bunch of plausible options I'd basically just be guessing, and it would be a bad thing to build any conclusions around.
Maybe later it'll be part of a pattern that is useful.
Day 1 is mostly just an extended RVS. Sometimes you get people caught in straight-up lies or whatever - see Killmatronix in Phantom Tollbooth - but more commonly it's a bunch of hunches.
Ok, then I think it's time you developed some hunches.
@Kami: A card steps out of the shadows and points a mana cannon at your face. "Choose another player to receive the blast, or you'll take it yourself."
@Kami: A card steps out of the shadows and points a mana cannon at your face. "Choose another player to receive the blast, or you'll take it yourself."
Wait, what now? Is Cantripmancer doing a bit, or is this for real?
So on the Rezombie part point B is weak. I'll readily admit it.
Yet, here comes an entire paragraph in which you continue to argue in favor of it, so this admission is clearly facetious.
It's not specifically about him not caring about votes, it's his attitude of "I don't care."
A. There's nothing to care about, and B. the person asking it was someone he was currently voting for, who had been overly defensive towards him. If someone normally were to ask me why two people page one of day one were voting for me without explanation, I would respond that I don't care. And I wouldn’t care. I would be even more curt and blunt with someone whom I have cast suspicion on and also who was throwing attitude my way. It's an understandable response.
He's not engaging and doing so in a way that's shutting down discussion and not showing the inquisitiveness that I'd expect from town.
I don't see lack of discussion and unwillingness to engage in rezombied.
That he doesn't care that there are votes on him is a town look, his disinterest in trying to figure out why those votes are there is a negative.
There were literally no explanations behind the votes. If neither Bur nor Cantrip cared if anyone knew why they were voting for him, I see no reason why we should penalize rezombied for replying that way. And once again, this would hold true even if he wasn't in a pissing contest with vezok.
The second point you break down ties into the above. With Vez's "claim" he was fully engaged and willing to nitpick fully but with yours there was minimum initial interest and no follow through.
I don't know where you're coming from here. He was interested in my response to Bur with regards to why I claimed. I answered why I claimed - because I adamantly support a roleclaim and encourage everyone to mass claim. Everyone in the town knows why I claimed, and reading the room, they seem to think I’ve spent too much time going on about it.
Given that almost every other player was directly asking you questions about it I find Rezombie just dropping it to be strange.
Who and when?
Bur directly asked me a question regarding why I chose to claim when I did. rezombied said he also wanted to know the answer to Bur’s question, said it a couple of times, so not technically a direct question but a statement of interest in the answer of one already asked. Axelrod asked me some questions. Iso made a direct comment to me regarding my role, but didn’t actually pose a direct question.
So we have two - three if we count rezombied’s statements of interest in my answer to Bur’s question as a restatement of that question, which I think is fair - people who directly asked me questions about my roleclaim over the course of the five pages of this game. No one else did. So what the hell are you talking about? You’re trying to claim rezombied was one of the only people who didn’t directly ask me a question about my claim when he’s one of the only people who actually did.
We know he's not someone who lacks follow through (see his back and forth with Vez)
Wait, you just described him as someone who doesn't engage and shuts down discussion. Which is it?
It makes his push on Vez make no sense to me. I don't see how you can have a problem with one but not the other.
I don't have a problem with either.
On Vezok's defensiveness: I don't really care what Vez says
You’re casting aspersions on KA for saying that vezok was overdefensive and you don’t care that vezok is saying that KA is correct for saying that? So you don't care that you're wrong?
: that wasn't the most defensive I've seen him (or Kami because we've been in games together that I'm thinking of) but even setting that value judgement aside KA's only point is defensiveness. I find it shocking that he would try to read Vez off that. He denies that he felt Vez was defensive at all in Phantom Tollbooth which I find hard to believe. When Vez is saying he was being intentionally defensive I think he's employing faulty self meta and underestimates how defensively he normally reads.
Except that vezok himself disagrees with you, so all of this is factually incorrect, isn’t it?
Yeah, you’re not backpedaling out of this one, buddy.
Also, it was page one of day one. We had two people vote without providing any reason whatsoever. Yet, this is the vote you think stands out?
Oh, and the cherry on top of all of this? You're saying you don’t care what vezok said after encouraging us to vote rezombied because rezombied answered he didn’t care about something.
@Highroller, yes, B. I’m curious where you’re going with this.
Not going anywhere. Not yet, anyway. You answered all of my questions.
I’m also curious what you think of GF’s third/fourth paragraphs, as I think they reflect an organically developing mindset on his Rez read.
You mean he's making ***** up as he goes to get rezombied lynched.
Grapefruit21 reads as someone who is trying to work his way backwards from the conclusion. In other words, instead of finding evidence and then drawing a conclusion from it on who to vote, he’s already set upon lynching someone and is searching for the evidence to get to a vote. He joins the bandwagon, then looks for the justifications afterward.
Hence his casting aspersions on KA, which puts his foot in the door should he decide to jump from the rezombied bandwagon to the KA bandwagon. That way, he's set up, so he can claim, no, I'm not bandwagoning, I was suspicious of him before.
I do not have the time to parse that whole enormous post, but I'm pretty sure parts of it are just wrong.
”I haven’t read what Highroller wrote, but I know it’s wrong.”
WOW. Thanks.
I mean, this part:
It's really telling that he's trying to take up an argument against KA calling vez over-defensive even after vez himself has stated that he was being overly defensive,
isn't right. The issue isn't whether Vez was or wasn't being "over-defensive." The issue is that voting someone for being "over-defensive" isn't a good reason to vote someone period.
Oh come on. What, you're going to try to "mafia-splain" this for him?
KA attacks Vez for being overly defensive. I didn't feel Vez was particularly defensive, but more importantly I don't think that should be a scum indicator. I don't feel like the attack was well founded, Vez is routinely argumentative, and KA should pick up on both of those things given his familiarity with Vez.
No, that clearly is the issue, because Grapefruit was, and still is, arguing that vez wasn't being overdefensive after vez already stated outright that he was. You cannot argue that a claim that a person is overdefensive is unfounded when that person has already admitted that he was (deliberately) overdefensive.
You’re not going to get Grapefruit21 out of this one by denying it happened, Axelrod.
High roller also thinks I'm trolling dead weight too, so I wouldn't let it bother you too much. Speaking of which, I'll stop trolling and make some meat posts.
Translation: ”WHAT?!?! HIGHROLLER THINKS I’M TROLLING?! WTF?! HOW COULD I BE TROLLING? WHERE DOES HE GET THAT I’M TROLLING?!?!?!??! … Oh, and also I’m trolling, eventually I’m going to stop trolling and make posts that aren’t trolling.”
See, normally I’d be mad, but honestly, I’m just proud of you for admitting the problem and taking steps toward solving it. Well done.
It's insanely bad by Rezom, but somehow, Kami comes in and counters with a vote on Vezo (#35) for being too defensive. It's a really weird side to take in all of this... almost like it's forced.
You're STILL going to ignore that vezok straight out said that KA was correct that he was being overdefensive?
Grape has shown this complete lack of awarness of what's going on in the game while town in Friends and Enemies.
I don't really know why he does it, but I think it's NAI.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at the fact that the closest thing to a defense in this thread so far for Grapefruit21's behavior is that this isn't him being mafia, he just doesn't read threads irrespective of role.
A couple players like M005 (#46) and Grape (#50) don't seem to get Bur's vote on Rezom like I do. Grape's post is a bit more interesting. He questions Kami's vote on Vezo and he questions me for my vote on Kami. Both seemed pretty obvious reasons to vote to me, so I'm not sure how to take this. I think maybe grape just was skimming and didn't really follow the flow. I do kind of worry that he was just skimming to make weak scum cases while not really trying to solve.
Ok, so that's how I read Day 1. I'll work on a Day 2 recap later tonight or tomorrow.
Terry am I completely misunderstanding this? The bold reads like you think KA's reason is obvious now which you clearly didn't think earlier since you voted him for it.
@Cantrip I was accused of it in Friends and Enemies like Vez mentioned (by Vez iirc) as town and the team game as scum where I was completely off base and not reading. I'll look for the actual examples tomorrow when I have some more time. I remember it in tokens (scum), and Arkham (town) but not as vividly as in F&E and especially the team game.
@Highroller you clearly aren't reading a word I'm saying despite responding to my words in minute detail. For example I went into a lot of detail how it's weird that Rez flipped out about Vez sharing a tiny bit of information but showed next to no interest in the fact that you dumped a ton of information all over the thread. A lot d your retort was "I don't see a problem with either." Which is irrelevant to the fact that Rez cared about information leak in one but not the other. Especially since his stated reason was he felt Vez was trying to bait more claims out. But didn't bat an eye when you were explicitly calling for that.
Or my point about Rez's engagement you construe my saying he engages selectively as contradicting myself. Rather than it being a report of what happened. Him choosing to devote all his energy towards chasing down Vez and checking whether my statement that who I suspected was obvious and shut down on everything else.
I have read nothing, on account of not wanting to taint reads in case I was mafia. Happily, a useless precaution!
vote: iso Pretty sure we wanna kill dat. Or at least get that out of the way. I mean, for all I know he was daykilled in the first five pages and isn't even alive and stuff, but I'm pretty sure as soon as I'm done reading him I'll find all sorts of sinister stuff, so we can save time this way. Also, the game hasn't ended and it's page 5, therefore burden of proficiency case.
@Axelrod: I feel like you're dancing around giving actual reads. 183 is just +town/-town one word labels within the context of responses to Highroller's claim. It feels like you're trying to look like you're participating without committing. Can you explain why you feel each response is pro-town or anti-town? And your question in 167 about "do we know if scum had pre-game chat" feels intentionally disingenuous. You've played in many mafia games, correct? Of recent ones on this site, how many do you know of that DIDN'T give scum a chance to do some coordination pre-game (or didn't have D1/all game scum daychat)?
I'm "dancing around" nothing. I don't have any reads beyond what I've already said. And, yes, I could explain why I feel each of those responses was +/- Town, but that would also involve writing quite a lot of words. Words I suspect many people have no interest in reading, in as much as people don't want to reads big walls of text when they could just get to the point. I can be rather wordy when I'm not careful (or even when I am). At the end of the day, those are very much just first impression type opinions.
I also haven't played in many "recent" games, and fortunately none at all where I was scum, so I could not say what the prevailing practice is/was about pre-game start communications. Time was if the scum had such a thing the Mod. would announce it, but I do not recall such an announcement. But it is also possible I missed it, and I did not feel like going to look for it, hence the question.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
PAGE 2:
I'm liking Cantrips post (#51), his thoughts seem similar to mine and organic. Vezo, then admits to being defensive, but for the right reasons (to stir things up) and I think he was right to be defensive against rezom. There are a few interactions between Grape and Vezo and Cantrip, but all seem pretty standard. So this when Highroller rolls in on the topic for the first time (#60) and really just spends the post promoting random lynching and claiming Day 1, both subjects I disagree with him on and seem to make the game less fun. Grape then seems to agree with Highroller about claiming early, and then naked votes me (#61). Kami then professes his love for Highroller. Bur comes in with a good explanation of his vote on Rezom. However Highroller keeps pushing this Day 1 claim and is really saying he wants a Day 1 mass claim (#69). This seems insanely wrong to me, like scummily wrong. He's trying to convince us that the only advantage town has is in numbers which is BS, this is a role madness, everyone has a role and we benefit from keeping those cards close to our chest UNTIL it nets us a scum Lynch! When I am scum, I pray for the Day 1 massclaim because TOWN is obligated to be truthful while SCUM can say whatever they want. So now scum holds literally ALL the information, not just who's on their team. They can plan accordingly how to kill and block and redirect and lie and cheat and steal. Town doesn't have that ability to coordinate an attack. So the fact that this mass claim is really being pushed by Highroller makes me really offset by him. It also turns out a bulk of our discussion at this point shifts from actual behavioral talk to hypothetical mechanical theory, which isn't really helpful.
The next significant shift I see on this page is when Highroller starts attacking Vezo (#79). He really makes it seem like Vez is advocating for a mass claim, which strangely plays into how Rezom was pushing Vez for ignoring Grapefruit's sage advice of not claiming. However, I have not once this game seen Vez advocate for a mass claim. He may have admitted to doing it in the past, but that's very different then pushing for a mass claim. All Vez really says this game is that he's fine with people claiming when they want to claim, which is very different than the angle that Highroller has taken this game. So I find this post by Highroller pretty misrepresentative of what Vez is saying. In the next part of this post he defends Rezom by pointing out that the votes on him had no reason behind them, but to someone truly reading the game and trying to solve it, the reason for the votes on Rezom were pretty obvious.
(@Highroller #79: Cantrip was bread crumbing)
The last part of that post talks about the difference between normals and seminormals and this game. This is a role madness game, it's not hard to figure out why a mass claim would be less useful because of the limitless possibilities of rolls that can exist. It's just more shade wrapped up by another call for mass claiming.
Moos5 has some worthless posts and votes Bur for asking how ISO could be serious about the Highroller/me connection. I'm going to keep an eye on that slot.
Then Highroller posts another wall about the pros of mass claiming (#90). It's just a lot more of the same as post #79, but he caps it off with a vote on Vezo, saying "Seriously, this whole suspicion train against rezombied needs to be thoroughly scrutinized.". This is just mind boggling to me. I see no other reason for this other than power wolfing a defense for his buddy Rezom. Then Highroller starts pushing Grapefruit for being anti-claim, it just seems like he's voting everyone disagreeing with him or voting Rezom (#94).
Trying to figure out Terry's posting overall. The wall is inherently offputting to me. It's hard to parse it. But there's a lot of effort here. But he's just been accused of not doing much so there's a scum!effort motivation.
Then he quotes veto saying that he would behave this way as either alignment and Rezom transforms that into saying that vezo was saying that he does it every game.
i dont understand this, could you show your work for this statement?
Quote from GF »
Which is irrelevant to the fact that Rez cared about information leak in one but not the other
Trying to figure out Terry's posting overall. The wall is inherently offputting to me. It's hard to parse it. But there's a lot of effort here. But he's just been accused of not doing much so there's a scum!effort motivation.
@Terry: Give me a three-line summary.
Oh please, I did that pages ago and was called a dead weight troll for it. I think the scum team is Kami, Highroller and Rezom because of how Rezom attacked Vezo for absolute garbage (and was insistent about it) and Kami and Highroller went strangely out of their way to attack Vezo and/or defend Rezom.
And even if I actually thought that my post would influence anyone, I'd still do it as any alignment as I have a strong history of suggesting different types of mass-claims early game even though almost the entire MTGS playerbase considers it a bad idea.
I don't care. "I do this every game" isn't really a valid argument to me right now.
I don't really need to show work here. You can just read this snippet.
@Azrael and @Bur: What do the two of you think of Axel's #225? Bonus points if you can tell me why I'm asking the two of you.
@Kami: Seriously? So you saying you think I'm town is just a load of bull? Well, at least this'll generate plenty of discussion. Kami needs serious scrutiny after this. If I don't survive, glgl.
Oh please, I did that pages ago and was called a dead weight troll for it. I think the scum team is Kami, Highroller and Rezom because of how Rezom attacked Vezo for absolute garbage (and was insistent about it) and Kami and Highroller went strangely out of their way to attack Vezo and/or defend Rezom.
I suppose I could see it from Highroller, depending on his experience and ballsiness, but you really think Kami tries to save a buddy like that?
I did an ISO of Rezombied because he was easiest, to see if anything jumped out at me. I don't like his vote on Vez to start. Pretty poor basis for a vote, though I do allow you don't need a lot of basis to vote early on D1. The reasoning that "I felt like Vez was secretly trying to get other people to share their role information" does not resonate at all for me. And the way he brushes off Vez's responses with "well, that's not what it looked like to me" or "I don't care" wasn't great either.
I did kind of like this though.
Quote from rezombied »
Quote from vezkprika »
@cantrip: I knew that. I'm just of a different mindset that even useless flavor claiming is cool. Just for the fact that it's done so rarely. In this game totally oppose any kind of claiming until we are better settled in.
This is weird and I don't like it.
Which feels like the kind of thing you could say as Town.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Azrael and @Bur: What do the two of you think of Axel's #225? Bonus points if you can tell me why I'm asking the two of you.
@Kami: Seriously? So you saying you think I'm town is just a load of bull? Well, at least this'll generate plenty of discussion. Kami needs serious scrutiny after this. If I don't survive, glgl.
Please. I've seen 900 fake daykills.
But to humor you: a redirectable daykill doesn't make any sense as a town ability, as it's massively -EV; if you ever point it at scum, they will always redirect to town, so you'd have to hope that you aim it at town the first time and that they correctly redirect it to scum. So no, either this is a bluff or you're scum.
Trying to figure out Terry's posting overall. The wall is inherently offputting to me. It's hard to parse it. But there's a lot of effort here. But he's just been accused of not doing much so there's a scum!effort motivation.
@Terry: Give me a three-line summary.
Oh please, I did that pages ago and was called a dead weight troll for it. I think the scum team is Kami, Highroller and Rezom because of how Rezom attacked Vezo for absolute garbage (and was insistent about it) and Kami and Highroller went strangely out of their way to attack Vezo and/or defend Rezom.
Well I don't approve of anyone calling anyone else a dead weight troll.
But more importantly, I meant give me a three-line summary in your review posts. If you're going to drop a giant undelimited paragraph at least include a TL;DR. The textblocks physically hurt my eyes.
@Azrael and @Bur: What do the two of you think of Axel's #225? Bonus points if you can tell me why I'm asking the two of you.
@Kami: Seriously? So you saying you think I'm town is just a load of bull? Well, at least this'll generate plenty of discussion. Kami needs serious scrutiny after this. If I don't survive, glgl.
@Mod: Votecount and game status check, please.
#1: I read the post and felt like it was a combination of big pile of empty words and excuses.
#2: I'm not certain, but because you want more content from us?
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
The room falls to a hush, as Cantripmancer steps out, massive mana cannon pointing at KamikazeArchon, and unleashes a deadly ultimatum.
"Either choose someone, or YOU take the blast."
Kami raises an eyebrow at him, and slowly, deliberately looks at what Cantrip is holding. It's a card with "MASSIVE MANA CANNON" scribbled on it in vivid.
Kami asserts his dominance over Cantrip by maintaining eye contact with him, and slowly, deliberately tells him to shoot himself.
A heavy silence hangs in the air for a moment as Cantrip shuffles his feet, then awkwardly breaks eye contact.
The rest of you ignore him and go back to squabbling.
Votecount 1.2
Bur (1) - Cantripmancer Iso (1) - Azrael Cantripmancer (1) - Vezokpiraka Grapefruit21 (1) - Highroller KamikazeArchon (2) - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Iso rezombied (2) - Bur, Grapefruit21 No cards in hand (4) - Ganderin_Dan, rezombied, KamikazeArchon, Axelrod
With 12 alive, it is SEVEN to lynch.
The Deadline is (NZtime) October 30th at around 9:30pm.
But to humor you: a redirectable daykill doesn't make any sense as a town ability, as it's massively -EV; if you ever point it at scum, they will always redirect to town, so you'd have to hope that you aim it at town the first time and that they correctly redirect it to scum. So no, either this is a bluff or you're scum.
THAT'S WHAT I GET FOR USING PROXIES! You could have at least pretended to play along. /grumble Yeah, was mostly hoping to ellicit another fun outraged response from Highroller (sorry, Highroller, but your reactions are fun), with mild potential to get a valid reaction from someone else (like maybe ANYTHING from YOU), but didn't really think I'd accomplish anything other than lulz. Happy that Wuffles was good humored enough to have some fun with it.
@Mod: I know I already sent you a message in Discord, but I'm currently voting Bur, not Rezombied (as of #160).
#1: I read the post and felt like it was a combination of big pile of empty words and excuses.
#2: I'm not certain, but because you want more content from us?
Um, no that wasn't the reason, but I'll be honest and say that they really are "bonus" points, as in, if you can actually figure out why, good on you. (Not being able to figure it out isn't going to make me think either of you is scum or anything.) Thanks for your response; I'll go into more detail after Azrael responds.
You still have outstanding questions from a previous post of mine. Please come participate.
VLA until 10/30. As indicated in signups, I will likely be unable to post from now until Monday evening at the earliest, more likely Tuesday sometime. I realize that's really close to the deadline, so my apologies, but can't be helped. I very rarely even attempt to phone read, much less post, but if the opportunity arises, I will try to keep up so I'm not completely useless upon return.
That was probably the worst attempt at a fake daykill I've ever seen. KA played it perfectly and gave the exact reason why it should always be redirected back to its target.
I don't even know why Cantrip attempted this while giving a complete bull flavour. More than 66% of players here play magic regularly and know there is no such thing as a mana cannon.
I kinda want to move my vote to grape, but Cantrip keeps doing these things that just more and more scummy.
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Yeah, was mostly hoping to ellicit another fun outraged response from Highroller (sorry, Highroller, but your reactions are fun), with mild potential to get a valid reaction from someone else (like maybe ANYTHING from YOU), but didn't really think I'd accomplish anything other than lulz.
Why the hell was I the only non-KamikazeArchon person to react to that prior to Wuffles posting the outcome? No one else thought that was noteworthy? Seriously?
For example I went into a lot of detail how it's weird that Rez flipped out about Vez sharing a tiny bit of information but showed next to no interest in the fact that you dumped a ton of information all over the thread. A lot d your retort was "I don't see a problem with either." Which is irrelevant to the fact that Rez cared about information leak in one but not the other. Especially since his stated reason was he felt Vez was trying to bait more claims out. But didn't bat an eye when you were explicitly calling for that.
Dude, I just caught you in a blatant lie and you’re not even going to acknowledge it?
You said that rezombied was almost the only one not asking direct questions to me about my roleclaim when almost no one actually did.
There is nothing here to single rezombied out on. While people might have debated my logic for pressing a mass claim, no one has argued that I was mafia because of it, so it’s not like rezombied accepting my posts as indicating that I’m town somehow separates him from the pack. Moreover, he’s backed off from vezok also, indicating he was basing his case off an initial suspicion, which I read as somewhat understandable.
Or my point about Rez's engagement you construe my saying he engages selectively as contradicting myself.
You ARE contradicting yourself. You're saying he's trying to shut down discussion while at the same time saying he's responsive.
Once again, trying to hammer him over the "I don't care" thing is asinine. You're saying oh no, how horrible it is that he doesn't care when he has no reason to care. He has no reason to care about two votes on page one of day one that have no explanation - apparently not even the people who cast the votes cared enough to explain why they cast them.
Him choosing to devote all his energy towards chasing down Vez and checking whether my statement that who I suspected was obvious and shut down on everything else.
Define "everything else." What, specifically, did he shut down?
He said he didn't care about why people are voting for him, which was a valid response. It was a silly question to press him on, and he was being pressed by a person he had suspicions of and whom he was in a pissing contest with.
But define “everything else.” What else? Identify what other things he shut down discussion on. What specifically? Find what specifically he didn’t address. Give us the post number, give us the question, give us the direct quote.
Once again, you’re just making stuff up to get him lynched.
Which is irrelevant to the fact that Rez cared about information leak in one but not the other
i care about intent.
So to make sure I understand you were against Vez's because he seemed to be trying to get people to share more on the DL and didn't care that he claimed he always does it. But you were fine with Highroller wanting everyone to claim because he thinks it's best for town.
I really don't see a difference in intent. I see the same intent (get people to share more) with opposing methods.
@Highroller I'll give you an army if quotes of people interacting with you. I even said I would when I had time. Work was busy today and I got off 10 minutes ago. Once I'm on my laptop you'll have your quotes of people interacting with you about your call for a mass claim.
There is no contradiction... Like I don't know what to say other than read my post again. My point is literally he has selective and contradictory engagement. He's shutting down discussion on somethings (the page 1 votes) while chasing others hard (Vez's partial claim). If you don't think that sort of selective engagement is scummy then I'll agree to disagree in principle on that but you insisting I'm contradicting myself is absurd. The "contradiction" is my point. It's weird he cared so much about Vez's claim and so little about yours. And justifying it as going off intent is absurd when your intent was to generate a mass claim which is exactly what he accused Vez of.
Also I completely disagree that "I don't care" is a valid response in this game. In that case him saying "I'm not worried I think they are townies who think I'm being overly agressive" but not caring shows a curiosity deficit. I can't imagine how you could play mafia and not wonder why people are voting you even if those votes are utterly inconsequential. I just cannot wrap my head around the mindset that sees 2 real votes on a wagon and shrugs. As either alignment.
@Highroller I'll give you an army if quotes of people interacting with you.
No no no, don't move the goalposts. That's not what you said. Obviously people have interacted with me. There's plenty of people who have interacted with me. But that's not what you said. What you said was:
Given that almost every other player was directly asking you questions about it I find Rezombie just dropping it to be strange.
You said that almost every other player was directly asking me questions with regards to my roleclaim. I challenge you to demonstrate that, because that is not what happened. I have already demonstrated this.
Moreover, you are saying that rezombied has refused to engage in discussion. This is also not what happened. With the exception of vezok's question of why did rezombied feel that people were voting for him page one of day one (specifically, Bur and Cantripmancer), rezombied has answered the questions posed of him without shooting them down. So I challenge you to also demonstrate this, because that is also not what happened.
You have been caught now in making two openly untrue statements.
He's shutting down discussion on somethings (the page 1 votes)
That's the only thing he shut down.
This is what I am talking about. Name any other thing he's shut down discussion in. Once again, you're trying to frame him as someone who shuts down discussions, but that's not who he is, and the only thing he's shut down is something that was dumb. What reasonable discussion could be had about two votes even the people who cast them didn't bother to explain?
If you don't think that sort of selective engagement is scummy
So on the Rezombie part point B is weak. I'll readily admit it.
Also I completely disagree that "I don't care" is a valid response in this game. In that case him saying "I'm not worried I think they are townies who think I'm being overly agressive" but not caring shows a curiosity deficit. I can't imagine how you could play mafia and not wonder why people are voting you even if those votes are utterly inconsequential.
Probably because those votes are utterly inconsequential. You just answered your own question.
Also, how have you not proven my argument?
My argument is that you are a person who goes after people with the intent of lynching them first, and then goes to find the evidence to build a case around them second, as opposed to looking through the evidence and then drawing a conclusion of who to lynch, which is what a town would do.
How are you not proving that with your demonstrations that you haven't been keeping any real track of what's been going on in the game?
You're going after people without even paying attention or demonstrating awareness of what is happening, and you've been caught in outright lies, so clearly facts and evidence are not priorities to you. How is my point is not proven? Furthermore, I don't see why a town would behave in such a manner.
The second point you break down ties into the above. With Vez's "claim" he was fully engaged and willing to nitpick fully but with yours there was minimum initial interest and no follow through. You mention you don't find this suspect because of how clearly you thought you explained yourself. Given that almost every other player was directly asking you questions about it I find Rezombie just dropping it to be strange. We know he's not someone who lacks follow through (see his back and forth with Vez) so it's just strange that given his expressed aversion to any information leaking and things looking like bait for more claims that he'd have 0 issue with your play this game. It makes his push on Vez make no sense to me. I don't see how you can have a problem with one but not the other. And this also answers your question. A and C aren't really two separate points to me. They show the break in his mindset.
I don't know how much clearer I need to be to make it obvious I'm talking about your proposal and not just your claim. That's pretty clear language.
But by all means keep insisting I'm lying and not reading the thread while not taking the time to read my posts. I wasn't going to touch you acting like I was jumping on Terry late when I think I've literally been the only person to push him and have been doing it since D1. So by all means keep telling me I'm making crap up.
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@Dan thanks, that fits my imagination but I'll still take a look.
@Axelrod @Vezok I got caught in the weeds because of Vez and KA's shared meta and Vez's general demeanor but that is the point. For most people (but especially Vezok) defensiveness is NAI.
I read your iso in Neighbors (and Vez's also, bonus), and I don't know that I really see a significant difference between your posts there and your posts in Tollbooth (although you had the lowest post count in Neighbors, which backs up your self-meta that you post less as scum). I...don't feel like looking at a 5-year old game is going to give me much of a read on current-you, so so much for easily sorting you on meta.
Just trying to give him a framework to reassess, given that he seems to be reading me primarily off of meta. He seems pretty staunch in his suspicions, though, so I'll keep on keeping on and we'll see where it goes. The meta read from Neighbors reinforced that this is town!Vez; he felt more...frantic? in Neighbors.
What do you mean, I "didn't back down" on Rez?
Ok, again, what do you mean that Bur is "sticking by" his Rez vote?
I...no longer believe that you are reading this game.
Uhhh, interesting thought. I'm down with Dan...still undecided on you?
@Highroller: I retract my poor comments on your lack of content. At minimum, pot-kettle, so definitely not fair for me to go there. FWIW, I'm 90% sure you're town. If you're scum, your "return to Mafia, push a D1 mass claim because my scumbuddies and I all have mod-given confirmable false claims and we'll wreck you" plan is freaking genius. And you're putting forth a carp-ton of effort, which I usually see as +town (even though I know it should be NAI).
@Axelrod: I feel like you're dancing around giving actual reads. 183 is just +town/-town one word labels within the context of responses to Highroller's claim. It feels like you're trying to look like you're participating without committing. Can you explain why you feel each response is pro-town or anti-town? And your question in 167 about "do we know if scum had pre-game chat" feels intentionally disingenuous. You've played in many mafia games, correct? Of recent ones on this site, how many do you know of that DIDN'T give scum a chance to do some coordination pre-game (or didn't have D1/all game scum daychat)?
Increasingly liking Cantrip. Maybe I can build a townpile and POE the scum?
What do you think of Grape's "scale of 1-10" question to you? Why do you think he asked that, what do you think he gains from it, and what do you think it says about his alignment?
Okay, I need to take better notes. Looking back you did clarify that. I even must have noticed because I refer to you doing it to stir up reactions in 53 but before you bringing it up now I don't remember you saying it.
I liked that you both justified your naked votes. And the reasoning was similar to what had pinged me.
... This is getting embarrassing. This is at least 4 games in a row I've faced that specific accusation. I don't know. I remembered you asking Dan a meta question but I posted without looking what it was.
I think trying to analyze it with such fine detail is pointless. There's a bunch of plausible reasons, including both scum and town motivations, and when there's a bunch of plausible options I'd basically just be guessing, and it would be a bad thing to build any conclusions around.
Maybe later it'll be part of a pattern that is useful.
Day 1 is mostly just an extended RVS. Sometimes you get people caught in straight-up lies or whatever - see Killmatronix in Phantom Tollbooth - but more commonly it's a bunch of hunches.
Okay that isn't the impression I got from you or your posts.
Why the confident language about Vez then compared to the "Elephant looks like a spear/trunk/etc" for everything else?
Ok, post #19 Highroller claims Goblin Recruiter, he claims it really hard. Like over-emphasizing the fact that he is a CREATURE. Also, I find it interesting that the card itself doesn't actually put anything in the graveyard, it puts cards on top of your deck, but his ability puts cards in the graveyard.
The very next post Grape comes in and says we shouldn't be claiming because his role cares about card types, which seems like a pro-town chime in to me. Vezo, says that it doesn't help him and in post #25, Rezom breaks the RVS seal and votes Vezo for that very comment. Like, it's a really bad vote. Super forced. Bur votes him for it, and Vezo replies pretty reasonably I thought (#28). Cantrip also vote Rezom shortly after. Now even though Rezom earned a couple votes for it, Rezom still tries to justify it and again acts like Grape's comment to keep it in our pants is the rule of the lord. It's insanely bad by Rezom, but somehow, Kami comes in and counters with a vote on Vezo (#35) for being too defensive. It's a really weird side to take in all of this... almost like it's forced. Axel calls him on it, but Rezom's next post is even more out of this world (#37). He starts off talking like Vezo was trying to force claims out of people. Then he quotes veto saying that he would behave this way as either alignment and Rezom transforms that into saying that vezo was saying that he does it every game. This whole post is just a mess. Then I vote Kami because his vote on Vezo stunk like BS. Then Kami, throws some shade on Axel for calling him out on it. Then GD for doing the same thing. A couple players like M005 (#46) and Grape (#50) don't seem to get Bur's vote on Rezom like I do. Grape's post is a bit more interesting. He questions Kami's vote on Vezo and he questions me for my vote on Kami. Both seemed pretty obvious reasons to vote to me, so I'm not sure how to take this. I think maybe grape just was skimming and didn't really follow the flow. I do kind of worry that he was just skimming to make weak scum cases while not really trying to solve.
Ok, so that's how I read Day 1. I'll work on a Day 2 recap later tonight or tomorrow.
@Terry you say KA's reason to vote in the early game was strong but you voted KA. Did your opinion of KAs vote change on your reread?
What are you talking about here grape? Joe has been consistently hounding KA through the whole game.
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If you're town, I hope you can understand how this could pretty easily be construed as you being scum, skimming the thread, and tossing off casual comments. IMO, unless you're of a specific subset of players, not reading the thread is more +scum and careful scrutiny of posts is more +town.
The reason that I ask is because after I was asked about my Rez vote and explained it, I pretty much dropped pursuing him and a few posts later said I was feeling better about Rez and voted Bur. Bur explained his vote and then...hasn't pursued Rez since in any way (mostly because he's been PTAPing, but still). So I was confused that you would say that I didn't back down (I backed off and voted elsewhere) and that Bur is sticking to his vote (Bur hasn't really posted anything of substance since then), as I don't really see either. That said, iirc, English is not your first language, is it? That and your explanation make me feel better about your comments.
Can you point me to some of these occurrences? It just feels like you're lolposting and not really reading, which doesn't jive with what I remember of your play.
Ok, then I think it's time you developed some hunches.
@Kami: A card steps out of the shadows and points a mana cannon at your face. "Choose another player to receive the blast, or you'll take it yourself."
I don't really know why he does it, but I think it's NAI.
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this is total nonsense
I focus on the things I want to, that I can try to draw sound conclusions from. I only have so much focus.
I'll catch up in the morning, work has been kicking my ass the last couple days.
Meantime, rest of the posts:
First of all, welcome to the game Azrael!
Second, what does NAI mean? No Alignment Indication?
Yet, here comes an entire paragraph in which you continue to argue in favor of it, so this admission is clearly facetious.
A. There's nothing to care about, and B. the person asking it was someone he was currently voting for, who had been overly defensive towards him. If someone normally were to ask me why two people page one of day one were voting for me without explanation, I would respond that I don't care. And I wouldn’t care. I would be even more curt and blunt with someone whom I have cast suspicion on and also who was throwing attitude my way. It's an understandable response.
I don't see lack of discussion and unwillingness to engage in rezombied.
There were literally no explanations behind the votes. If neither Bur nor Cantrip cared if anyone knew why they were voting for him, I see no reason why we should penalize rezombied for replying that way. And once again, this would hold true even if he wasn't in a pissing contest with vezok.
I don't know where you're coming from here. He was interested in my response to Bur with regards to why I claimed. I answered why I claimed - because I adamantly support a roleclaim and encourage everyone to mass claim. Everyone in the town knows why I claimed, and reading the room, they seem to think I’ve spent too much time going on about it.
Who and when?
Bur directly asked me a question regarding why I chose to claim when I did. rezombied said he also wanted to know the answer to Bur’s question, said it a couple of times, so not technically a direct question but a statement of interest in the answer of one already asked. Axelrod asked me some questions. Iso made a direct comment to me regarding my role, but didn’t actually pose a direct question.
So we have two - three if we count rezombied’s statements of interest in my answer to Bur’s question as a restatement of that question, which I think is fair - people who directly asked me questions about my roleclaim over the course of the five pages of this game. No one else did. So what the hell are you talking about? You’re trying to claim rezombied was one of the only people who didn’t directly ask me a question about my claim when he’s one of the only people who actually did.
Wait, you just described him as someone who doesn't engage and shuts down discussion. Which is it?
I don't have a problem with either.
You’re casting aspersions on KA for saying that vezok was overdefensive and you don’t care that vezok is saying that KA is correct for saying that? So you don't care that you're wrong?
Except that vezok himself disagrees with you, so all of this is factually incorrect, isn’t it?
Yeah, you’re not backpedaling out of this one, buddy.
Also, it was page one of day one. We had two people vote without providing any reason whatsoever. Yet, this is the vote you think stands out?
Oh, and the cherry on top of all of this? You're saying you don’t care what vezok said after encouraging us to vote rezombied because rezombied answered he didn’t care about something.
Not going anywhere. Not yet, anyway. You answered all of my questions.
You mean he's making ***** up as he goes to get rezombied lynched.
Grapefruit21 reads as someone who is trying to work his way backwards from the conclusion. In other words, instead of finding evidence and then drawing a conclusion from it on who to vote, he’s already set upon lynching someone and is searching for the evidence to get to a vote. He joins the bandwagon, then looks for the justifications afterward.
Hence his casting aspersions on KA, which puts his foot in the door should he decide to jump from the rezombied bandwagon to the KA bandwagon. That way, he's set up, so he can claim, no, I'm not bandwagoning, I was suspicious of him before.
”I haven’t read what Highroller wrote, but I know it’s wrong.”
WOW. Thanks.
Oh come on. What, you're going to try to "mafia-splain" this for him?
No, that clearly is the issue, because Grapefruit was, and still is, arguing that vez wasn't being overdefensive after vez already stated outright that he was. You cannot argue that a claim that a person is overdefensive is unfounded when that person has already admitted that he was (deliberately) overdefensive.
You’re not going to get Grapefruit21 out of this one by denying it happened, Axelrod.
Translation: ”WHAT?!?! HIGHROLLER THINKS I’M TROLLING?! WTF?! HOW COULD I BE TROLLING? WHERE DOES HE GET THAT I’M TROLLING?!?!?!??! … Oh, and also I’m trolling, eventually I’m going to stop trolling and make posts that aren’t trolling.”
See, normally I’d be mad, but honestly, I’m just proud of you for admitting the problem and taking steps toward solving it. Well done.
You're STILL going to ignore that vezok straight out said that KA was correct that he was being overdefensive?
Making sure you get your foot into that door too, huh?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at the fact that the closest thing to a defense in this thread so far for Grapefruit21's behavior is that this isn't him being mafia, he just doesn't read threads irrespective of role.
Terry am I completely misunderstanding this? The bold reads like you think KA's reason is obvious now which you clearly didn't think earlier since you voted him for it.
@Cantrip I was accused of it in Friends and Enemies like Vez mentioned (by Vez iirc) as town and the team game as scum where I was completely off base and not reading. I'll look for the actual examples tomorrow when I have some more time. I remember it in tokens (scum), and Arkham (town) but not as vividly as in F&E and especially the team game.
@Highroller you clearly aren't reading a word I'm saying despite responding to my words in minute detail. For example I went into a lot of detail how it's weird that Rez flipped out about Vez sharing a tiny bit of information but showed next to no interest in the fact that you dumped a ton of information all over the thread. A lot d your retort was "I don't see a problem with either." Which is irrelevant to the fact that Rez cared about information leak in one but not the other. Especially since his stated reason was he felt Vez was trying to bait more claims out. But didn't bat an eye when you were explicitly calling for that.
Or my point about Rez's engagement you construe my saying he engages selectively as contradicting myself. Rather than it being a report of what happened. Him choosing to devote all his energy towards chasing down Vez and checking whether my statement that who I suspected was obvious and shut down on everything else.
If I say I will vote terry because his name is stinky, the reason is obvious, but weak.
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I have read nothing, on account of not wanting to taint reads in case I was mafia. Happily, a useless precaution!
vote: iso Pretty sure we wanna kill dat. Or at least get that out of the way. I mean, for all I know he was daykilled in the first five pages and isn't even alive and stuff, but I'm pretty sure as soon as I'm done reading him I'll find all sorts of sinister stuff, so we can save time this way. Also, the game hasn't ended and it's page 5, therefore burden of proficiency case.
I also haven't played in many "recent" games, and fortunately none at all where I was scum, so I could not say what the prevailing practice is/was about pre-game start communications. Time was if the scum had such a thing the Mod. would announce it, but I do not recall such an announcement. But it is also possible I missed it, and I did not feel like going to look for it, hence the question.
I'm liking Cantrips post (#51), his thoughts seem similar to mine and organic. Vezo, then admits to being defensive, but for the right reasons (to stir things up) and I think he was right to be defensive against rezom. There are a few interactions between Grape and Vezo and Cantrip, but all seem pretty standard. So this when Highroller rolls in on the topic for the first time (#60) and really just spends the post promoting random lynching and claiming Day 1, both subjects I disagree with him on and seem to make the game less fun. Grape then seems to agree with Highroller about claiming early, and then naked votes me (#61). Kami then professes his love for Highroller. Bur comes in with a good explanation of his vote on Rezom. However Highroller keeps pushing this Day 1 claim and is really saying he wants a Day 1 mass claim (#69). This seems insanely wrong to me, like scummily wrong. He's trying to convince us that the only advantage town has is in numbers which is BS, this is a role madness, everyone has a role and we benefit from keeping those cards close to our chest UNTIL it nets us a scum Lynch! When I am scum, I pray for the Day 1 massclaim because TOWN is obligated to be truthful while SCUM can say whatever they want. So now scum holds literally ALL the information, not just who's on their team. They can plan accordingly how to kill and block and redirect and lie and cheat and steal. Town doesn't have that ability to coordinate an attack. So the fact that this mass claim is really being pushed by Highroller makes me really offset by him. It also turns out a bulk of our discussion at this point shifts from actual behavioral talk to hypothetical mechanical theory, which isn't really helpful.
The next significant shift I see on this page is when Highroller starts attacking Vezo (#79). He really makes it seem like Vez is advocating for a mass claim, which strangely plays into how Rezom was pushing Vez for ignoring Grapefruit's sage advice of not claiming. However, I have not once this game seen Vez advocate for a mass claim. He may have admitted to doing it in the past, but that's very different then pushing for a mass claim. All Vez really says this game is that he's fine with people claiming when they want to claim, which is very different than the angle that Highroller has taken this game. So I find this post by Highroller pretty misrepresentative of what Vez is saying. In the next part of this post he defends Rezom by pointing out that the votes on him had no reason behind them, but to someone truly reading the game and trying to solve it, the reason for the votes on Rezom were pretty obvious.
(@Highroller #79: Cantrip was bread crumbing)
The last part of that post talks about the difference between normals and seminormals and this game. This is a role madness game, it's not hard to figure out why a mass claim would be less useful because of the limitless possibilities of rolls that can exist. It's just more shade wrapped up by another call for mass claiming.
Moos5 has some worthless posts and votes Bur for asking how ISO could be serious about the Highroller/me connection. I'm going to keep an eye on that slot.
Then Highroller posts another wall about the pros of mass claiming (#90). It's just a lot more of the same as post #79, but he caps it off with a vote on Vezo, saying "Seriously, this whole suspicion train against rezombied needs to be thoroughly scrutinized.". This is just mind boggling to me. I see no other reason for this other than power wolfing a defense for his buddy Rezom. Then Highroller starts pushing Grapefruit for being anti-claim, it just seems like he's voting everyone disagreeing with him or voting Rezom (#94).
@Cantrip: I choose Cantrip.
@Terry: Give me a three-line summary.
i dont understand this, could you show your work for this statement?
i care about intent.
@Azrael and @Bur: What do the two of you think of Axel's #225? Bonus points if you can tell me why I'm asking the two of you.
@Kami: Seriously? So you saying you think I'm town is just a load of bull? Well, at least this'll generate plenty of discussion. Kami needs serious scrutiny after this. If I don't survive, glgl.
@Mod: Votecount and game status check, please.
I did kind of like this though.
Which feels like the kind of thing you could say as Town.
But to humor you: a redirectable daykill doesn't make any sense as a town ability, as it's massively -EV; if you ever point it at scum, they will always redirect to town, so you'd have to hope that you aim it at town the first time and that they correctly redirect it to scum. So no, either this is a bluff or you're scum.
But more importantly, I meant give me a three-line summary in your review posts. If you're going to drop a giant undelimited paragraph at least include a TL;DR. The textblocks physically hurt my eyes.
#1: I read the post and felt like it was a combination of big pile of empty words and excuses.
#2: I'm not certain, but because you want more content from us?
"Either choose someone, or YOU take the blast."
Kami raises an eyebrow at him, and slowly, deliberately looks at what Cantrip is holding. It's a card with "MASSIVE MANA CANNON" scribbled on it in vivid.
Kami asserts his dominance over Cantrip by maintaining eye contact with him, and slowly, deliberately tells him to shoot himself.
A heavy silence hangs in the air for a moment as Cantrip shuffles his feet, then awkwardly breaks eye contact.
The rest of you ignore him and go back to squabbling.
Votecount 1.2
Bur (1) - Cantripmancer
Iso (1) - Azrael
Cantripmancer (1) - Vezokpiraka
Grapefruit21 (1) - Highroller
KamikazeArchon (2) - TheRealStinkyJoeTerry, Iso
rezombied (2) - Bur, Grapefruit21
No cards in hand (4) - Ganderin_Dan, rezombied, KamikazeArchon, Axelrod
With 12 alive, it is SEVEN to lynch.
The Deadline is (NZtime) October 30th at around 9:30pm.
@Mod: I know I already sent you a message in Discord, but I'm currently voting Bur, not Rezombied (as of #160).
Um, no that wasn't the reason, but I'll be honest and say that they really are "bonus" points, as in, if you can actually figure out why, good on you. (Not being able to figure it out isn't going to make me think either of you is scum or anything.) Thanks for your response; I'll go into more detail after Azrael responds.
You still have outstanding questions from a previous post of mine. Please come participate.
VLA until 10/30. As indicated in signups, I will likely be unable to post from now until Monday evening at the earliest, more likely Tuesday sometime. I realize that's really close to the deadline, so my apologies, but can't be helped. I very rarely even attempt to phone read, much less post, but if the opportunity arises, I will try to keep up so I'm not completely useless upon return.
I don't even know why Cantrip attempted this while giving a complete bull flavour. More than 66% of players here play magic regularly and know there is no such thing as a mana cannon.
I kinda want to move my vote to grape, but Cantrip keeps doing these things that just more and more scummy.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
Dude, I just caught you in a blatant lie and you’re not even going to acknowledge it?
You said that rezombied was almost the only one not asking direct questions to me about my roleclaim when almost no one actually did.
There is nothing here to single rezombied out on. While people might have debated my logic for pressing a mass claim, no one has argued that I was mafia because of it, so it’s not like rezombied accepting my posts as indicating that I’m town somehow separates him from the pack. Moreover, he’s backed off from vezok also, indicating he was basing his case off an initial suspicion, which I read as somewhat understandable.
You ARE contradicting yourself. You're saying he's trying to shut down discussion while at the same time saying he's responsive.
Once again, trying to hammer him over the "I don't care" thing is asinine. You're saying oh no, how horrible it is that he doesn't care when he has no reason to care. He has no reason to care about two votes on page one of day one that have no explanation - apparently not even the people who cast the votes cared enough to explain why they cast them.
Define "everything else." What, specifically, did he shut down?
He said he didn't care about why people are voting for him, which was a valid response. It was a silly question to press him on, and he was being pressed by a person he had suspicions of and whom he was in a pissing contest with.
But define “everything else.” What else? Identify what other things he shut down discussion on. What specifically? Find what specifically he didn’t address. Give us the post number, give us the question, give us the direct quote.
Once again, you’re just making stuff up to get him lynched.
So to make sure I understand you were against Vez's because he seemed to be trying to get people to share more on the DL and didn't care that he claimed he always does it. But you were fine with Highroller wanting everyone to claim because he thinks it's best for town.
I really don't see a difference in intent. I see the same intent (get people to share more) with opposing methods.
There is no contradiction... Like I don't know what to say other than read my post again. My point is literally he has selective and contradictory engagement. He's shutting down discussion on somethings (the page 1 votes) while chasing others hard (Vez's partial claim). If you don't think that sort of selective engagement is scummy then I'll agree to disagree in principle on that but you insisting I'm contradicting myself is absurd. The "contradiction" is my point. It's weird he cared so much about Vez's claim and so little about yours. And justifying it as going off intent is absurd when your intent was to generate a mass claim which is exactly what he accused Vez of.
Also I completely disagree that "I don't care" is a valid response in this game. In that case him saying "I'm not worried I think they are townies who think I'm being overly agressive" but not caring shows a curiosity deficit. I can't imagine how you could play mafia and not wonder why people are voting you even if those votes are utterly inconsequential. I just cannot wrap my head around the mindset that sees 2 real votes on a wagon and shrugs. As either alignment.
You said that almost every other player was directly asking me questions with regards to my roleclaim. I challenge you to demonstrate that, because that is not what happened. I have already demonstrated this.
Moreover, you are saying that rezombied has refused to engage in discussion. This is also not what happened. With the exception of vezok's question of why did rezombied feel that people were voting for him page one of day one (specifically, Bur and Cantripmancer), rezombied has answered the questions posed of him without shooting them down. So I challenge you to also demonstrate this, because that is also not what happened.
You have been caught now in making two openly untrue statements.
That's the only thing he shut down.
This is what I am talking about. Name any other thing he's shut down discussion in. Once again, you're trying to frame him as someone who shuts down discussions, but that's not who he is, and the only thing he's shut down is something that was dumb. What reasonable discussion could be had about two votes even the people who cast them didn't bother to explain?
Probably because those votes are utterly inconsequential. You just answered your own question.
Also, how have you not proven my argument?
My argument is that you are a person who goes after people with the intent of lynching them first, and then goes to find the evidence to build a case around them second, as opposed to looking through the evidence and then drawing a conclusion of who to lynch, which is what a town would do.
How are you not proving that with your demonstrations that you haven't been keeping any real track of what's been going on in the game?
You're going after people without even paying attention or demonstrating awareness of what is happening, and you've been caught in outright lies, so clearly facts and evidence are not priorities to you. How is my point is not proven? Furthermore, I don't see why a town would behave in such a manner.
I don't know how much clearer I need to be to make it obvious I'm talking about your proposal and not just your claim. That's pretty clear language.
But by all means keep insisting I'm lying and not reading the thread while not taking the time to read my posts. I wasn't going to touch you acting like I was jumping on Terry late when I think I've literally been the only person to push him and have been doing it since D1. So by all means keep telling me I'm making crap up.