I'd propose that we keep these things underwraps this way we can simply evaluate roles.
The same as usual, no? If someome's about to be lynched, they claim, and we re-evaluate if need be.
No, why would we?
Same as above, really.
I'm not sure why you're trying to dictate this discussion over scumhunting. I see little benefit in claiming our flavor. Perhaps you're attempting to flavor-fish in hopes it helps with your alt win con?
~~
@Grape
Thanks! Likewise. I was nominated via an anonymous voting process, but I think it's pretty obviously so if you were to look at my games on my homesite that I was voted for my town game, not so much scum. My scum game's significantly weaker than my town, due to a combo of anxiety + boredom, but certain things have improved since then, like the time it takes for my anxiety to kick in (if it does). Wolfing during shorter phases appeals to me, and I'm slowly beginning to enjoy it again with the help of MU's turbos.
When I get back onto the comp, I can link a couple of more recent wolf games if need be.
Well that's a solid plummet for you.
Yeah that's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm saying when people are claiming should they also claim their Faction/Names of Characters.
I'm proposing that they don't so that alternate win conditions don't have any effect.
In fact I say that in the quote you have. Its like you read my post, quit reading when you saw that you could make an attack and didn't read the entire thing.
Vote RE
Contextually, that was absolutely unclear. You asked the questions in three seperate lines. They read as independent of each other.
Good to know you haven't been reading my posts either.
Contextually wise its highly clear. Context literally means to include the circumstances. The last line is context that informs the rest of the post.
When you say I have not read your posts what exactly do you mean by that? Is there something I'm missing? Or are you just trying to be a jerk with that? You clearly didn't read what I wrote. Twice. I'm unsure what you mean when you say I have not read your posts. I've read everything you've written so far. You have spoken about claiming that is true. But, that has no bearing at all on taking my own posts out of context.
No, it actually doesn't. I took it to mean you were asking about claims in general, not when people have been forced to claim. (If you want an answer, if they're a lynch candidate,they should claim flavor. If they're claiming to give information to town, no. This is also likely to be a case by case scenario depending on the importance of the role claimed.)
It means you're jumping on me for misinterpreting one of your posts while also accusing you of something that is fair - that you've dedicated most of your time on the mechanical portion of the game. Am I being a jerk by accusing you of not reading my posts? Either you haven't, or you're putting more value on my commentary of you, which is pretty darn accurate, over the numerous other posts I've made.
Me accusing you of pursuing an alternate wincon is literally the opposite of shade. It means I'm taking them into account when evaluating off behavior.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@Grapefruit
y'all cant read me, you will only catch me via PoE
if the dude wants to play one game with me, and then decide he can efficiently read my emotion, or deduce how my mind works, then I will get mad
then he's going to argue that contradictions are scummy? what is this, 2010?
its the same ***** game after game, and I hate how you are just pseudo-defending me while also calling him correct in how he is choosing to read me...
"if you were to rely on meta he would be town", you should stop using meta then if that's the case...
so you are arguing that his alignment becomes more obvious as the game moves on? but also arguing that he could still go either way? If the game goes on, and he is not dead, he is scum... plain and simple, you cant argue that once late game comes, that his lack of conclusions points to anything but scum, never deadweight town, since by meta, shin is just as abrupt as I am when hes town
Yeah, I think so too. But it was a point in Shinichi's favor, and I was curious why YOU thought he was scum that early on, when I came to a different conclusion. Were you abusing Shinichi's LHF status? Did you honestly scumread him for valid reasons? Or maybe, you were bussing him? Those were questions that could be more easily answered if I was given your reasoning.
I've seen Shinichi be mislynched for fighting with others over mafia theory instead of scumhunting. It was an unproductive mislynch. I'd be hesitant to scumread him even if he were to "not scumhunt," as sad as that is. I'd be less hesitant to stop defending him though. I'd rather analyze the quality of his posts, and maybe his tunnels, if he does that, rather than how he's playing overall, since his approach can be a bit unusual.
~~
For the record, I know D_V's done this exact same thing as town. Jumping on someone (who was town) for misreading one of their posts, or remembering something about them incorrectly and using it against them. They're an OMGUS-y player. I relate.
The post was worded in a way that made me view it as something that wouldn't help town, but I can believe that there was another reason for it now that it's been explained.
And as I've said earlier, D_V would be a townlean if there was less focus on the mechanical portion of the game. The vote on me's not entirely wasted, from my perspective at least.
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1762283
(Was lynched day 3, though I should have been dead day 2 since the cop checked me night 1 but got lucky by roleblocking him. I slacked off, but the walls were closing on me anyway.)
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
Grape you didn't have a problem sitting with your scum read on me in multiple other games recently despite people having very strong town reads one me. Why is this different?
Because I don't have anything from you making me feel one way or the other. And given my usual strong (and often incorrect) feelings about you I'm finding it odd that I'm being slower to take a stand than most. Makes me think either some of the reads on you are fake or I'm missing something.
@Wisp A win is a win. No one should be out here actively throwing away either win con. Both are valid ways to win the game and as far as possible you should be doing both.
The same as usual, no? If someome's about to be lynched, they claim, and we re-evaluate if need be.
No, why would we?
Same as above, really.
I'm not sure why you're trying to dictate this discussion over scumhunting. I see little benefit in claiming our flavor. Perhaps you're attempting to flavor-fish in hopes it helps with your alt win con?
~~
@Grape
Thanks! Likewise. I was nominated via an anonymous voting process, but I think it's pretty obviously so if you were to look at my games on my homesite that I was voted for my town game, not so much scum. My scum game's significantly weaker than my town, due to a combo of anxiety + boredom, but certain things have improved since then, like the time it takes for my anxiety to kick in (if it does). Wolfing during shorter phases appeals to me, and I'm slowly beginning to enjoy it again with the help of MU's turbos.
When I get back onto the comp, I can link a couple of more recent wolf games if need be.
Well that's a solid plummet for you.
Yeah that's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm saying when people are claiming should they also claim their Faction/Names of Characters.
I'm proposing that they don't so that alternate win conditions don't have any effect.
In fact I say that in the quote you have. Its like you read my post, quit reading when you saw that you could make an attack and didn't read the entire thing.
Vote RE
Contextually, that was absolutely unclear. You asked the questions in three seperate lines. They read as independent of each other.
Good to know you haven't been reading my posts either.
Contextually wise its highly clear. Context literally means to include the circumstances. The last line is context that informs the rest of the post.
When you say I have not read your posts what exactly do you mean by that? Is there something I'm missing? Or are you just trying to be a jerk with that? You clearly didn't read what I wrote. Twice. I'm unsure what you mean when you say I have not read your posts. I've read everything you've written so far. You have spoken about claiming that is true. But, that has no bearing at all on taking my own posts out of context.
No, it actually doesn't. I took it to mean you were asking about claims in general, not when people have been forced to claim. (If you want an answer, if they're a lynch candidate,they should claim flavor. If they're claiming to give information to town, no. This is also likely to be a case by case scenario depending on the importance of the role claimed.)
It means you're jumping on me for misinterpreting one of your posts while also accusing you of something that is fair - that you've dedicated most of your time on the mechanical portion of the game. Am I being a jerk by accusing you of not reading my posts? Either you haven't, or you're putting more value on my commentary of you, which is pretty darn accurate, over the numerous other posts I've made.
Me accusing you of pursuing an alternate wincon is literally the opposite of shade. It means I'm taking them into account when evaluating off behavior.
No
I'm sorry I'm not letting this go.
You're wrong either way.
There are two interpretations of my post.
Either
A) They are all linked together.
Or
B) They are all separate questions.
However, it doesn't matter if we go with your or my interpretation. Either way you can't accuse me of looking to fulfill my alternative win con because the last sentence says "I'd propose that we keep these things underwraps this way we can simply evaluate roles." It doesn't matter which way you interpret this. I'm clearly taking a stance against fulfilling the win conditions either way. There is simply no way to misinterpret this statement by me.
Secondly, you are now arguing that because I voted you I most not have read your posts. Or that at the very least I am ignoring your posts. Your claim is that your posts make you so towny, that me voting you over this is wrong. I think that's a contrive argument to begin with since I don't think that was your meaning and you were just being snippy.
I'll ask you what you have done that makes you town read, or makes it so that I should town read you. You clearly have something in mind. I don't see it though. Most of your posts are running commentary that either alignment could make and then a really really weak read on Shinichi.
You keep saying that you would give me at town read if there was less mechanical focus by me. But what exactly have I done then in this game that is worth the town or the "Townlean" read. A majority of my posts have been slightly mechanical in nature, the rest of them have been largely just me having fun. Nothing I have done should contribute to any read on me what so ever. So, what is it that is making you want to town lean me?
This reeks of too much information to me. You know I'm town, you are looking to give me a town read, and you are saying "I'd give DV a town read if he would stop being mechanical". On its face it seems like a fair statement, but its not a fair statement. The game has been going on for a day now, and on top of that a majority of my content posts have been mechanical. If you throw all of that out I'm not sure how you could ever get anything that makes you want to town lean me. Or even gives a read at all.
On top of that with your last post you clearly haven't read a post still in question with your comment about my ability to read Shinichi.
Grape you didn't have a problem sitting with your scum read on me in multiple other games recently despite people having very strong town reads one me. Why is this different?
Because I don't have anything from you making me feel one way or the other. And given my usual strong (and often incorrect) feelings about you I'm finding it odd that I'm being slower to take a stand than most. Makes me think either some of the reads on you are fake or I'm missing something.
@Wisp A win is a win. No one should be out here actively throwing away either win con. Both are valid ways to win the game and as far as possible you should be doing both.
Ahh well, you should pursue that. I'm on the same train of fake reads.
@Last
Not really, Vaimes feels right, I think I agree with your premise on Rod, Grape is a light townlean, everyone else is pretty null. Not familiar with a fair amount of the players and it’s still way too early for me to have a good handle on what I think is going on.
@Grapefruit
y'all cant read me, you will only catch me via PoE
if the dude wants to play one game with me, and then decide he can efficiently read my emotion, or deduce how my mind works, then I will get mad
then he's going to argue that contradictions are scummy? what is this, 2010?
its the same ***** game after game, and I hate how you are just pseudo-defending me while also calling him correct in how he is choosing to read me...
Regardless of my ability to read you I can observe whether your behavior is different or not. HR's reasons to scum read you are wrong. They are surface level observations and don't really have a motivating reason to be different as scum. What he's seeing is true. Step back from his conclusions for a second. What he's seeing is factual. It's a bad way to read you due to all the other games you provided, but if a players only experience with you was these 2 games someone would correctly think you were behaving differently. Given Highroller's penchant for thinking that different = scummy and liking to use level 1 reads until they fail him it makes perfect sense for him to push you her from his prospective. I think he's wrong. I've told him why. But the way you've taken it as a personal affront is just odd. Probably townie with frayed nerves, but I hate giving town cred for bad behavior.
I'm not psuedo defending you. I'm defending you. His case is not good. But the facts it's based on are true. All of those statements are true.
Then I'll have to. Because I doubt anything productive will come out of this. I'll respond to questions you have for me, but your read of me itself first relies on something fundamentally false - that your word (or anyone's) in this game is never open to room for misinterpretation.
However, it doesn't matter if we go with your or my interpretation. Either way you can't accuse me of looking to fulfill my alternative win con because the last sentence says "I'd propose that we keep these things underwraps this way we can simply evaluate roles." It doesn't matter which way you interpret this. I'm clearly taking a stance against fulfilling the win conditions either way. There is simply no way to misinterpret this statement by me.
Oops?
Secondly, you are now arguing that because I voted you I most not have read your posts. Or that at the very least I am ignoring your posts. Your claim is that your posts make you so towny, that me voting you over this is wrong. I think that's a contrive argument to begin with since I don't think that was your meaning and you were just being snippy.
Again, your reasoning for voting me is flawed. You'll see the value in reading my other posts, or if you have, actually taking them into account, if my alignment becomes obvious later on.
I'll ask you what you have done that makes you town read, or makes it so that I should town read you. You clearly have something in mind. I don't see it though. Most of your posts are running commentary that either alignment could make and then a really really weak read on Shinichi.
This is inaccurate. I've had other reads aside from Shinichi. (See post in spoiler below. See where my vote is currently.)
You keep saying that you would give me at town read if there was less mechanical focus by me. But what exactly have I done then in this game that is worth the town or the "Townlean" read. A majority of my posts have been slightly mechanical in nature, the rest of them have been largely just me having fun. Nothing I have done should contribute to any read on me what so ever. So, what is it that is making you want to town lean me?
Extremely tempted to townread Highroller for pulling up evidence from other games to case Wisp, quickly at that too. It reads to me as instinctual, which is +town.
Was close to giving D_V a townlean for similar reasoning (instinctual posts) - but they don't really contain content that isn't mechanical or flavor-related, so it'd possibly be premature. Sir Chris can get the townlean though for the same reason.
Wisp is getting ahead of himself, which is NAI unfortunately and makes his reads seem forced regardless of alignment. So if he's town, hopefully this will change when more evidence presents itself. I'm also interested in why he hasn't nominated himself for the Iron Throne? He seems the type.
Sleeping now, it seems quiet. Have an exam Thursday as well as some projects to get done - checking in will likely be minimal if I control myself.
This reeks of too much information to me. You know I'm town, you are looking to give me a town read, and you are saying "I'd give DV a town read if he would stop being mechanical". On its face it seems like a fair statement, but its not a fair statement. The game has been going on for a day now, and on top of that a majority of my content posts have been mechanical. If you throw all of that out I'm not sure how you could ever get anything that makes you want to town lean me. Or even gives a read at all.
Refer to the post above. I dislike giving townleans to people who talk mostly mechanics. Since technically it is NAI.
On top of that with your last post you clearly haven't read a post still in question with your comment about my ability to read Shinichi.
Yeah, I missed that one. My bad. Likely because I was on mobile, but that's not an excuse.
...
I don't think this response is going to be helpful for anyone. And I don't want this to escalate to the same levels in the previous game. So if I don't respond to any of your other posts regarding your read on me, it's because you are likely going to believe what you want to believe with disregard for anything I say afterwards. All I'll say is this method of catching scum has been proven to be unreliable for you, referring to your read on Scarlet in Guilty Crown Mafia on MAL.
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When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@Grape
I don't really remember arguing they were wrong, like anyone can look at game X, and this game, Y, and find a difference between my Day 1's, honestly if you look hard enough if you can find a difference in a lot of things, the point is, is that read his bad, and then onto the contradictions, they exist, are they necessarily scummy? of course not, town contradict themselves more than scum for the most part, and personally, I contradict myself all the time as either alignment, so I can argue its completely NAI... But he's not going to drop this, and every time I read this thread I'm going to see him post something else about it when at this point I've argued everything I can against it
Wisp my point is by arguing with and caring about a read you are giving it fuel. If it's that bad ignore it, it's D1 and you are under zero pressure. Don't give it the time of day.
Also you just kind of look like a tool when you're arguing about how bad using meta is while using self meta to explain why the read is bad. Trust your fellow townies.
You keep saying that you would give me at town read if there was less mechanical focus by me. But what exactly have I done then in this game that is worth the town or the "Townlean" read. A majority of my posts have been slightly mechanical in nature, the rest of them have been largely just me having fun. Nothing I have done should contribute to any read on me what so ever. So, what is it that is making you want to town lean me?
This
Was close to giving D_V a townlean for similar reasoning (instinctual posts) - but they don't really contain content that isn't mechanical or flavor-related, so it'd possibly be premature.
I'd advise you to start answering my posts seriously.
My entire point and my entire question is how are you close to giving me a town read. "Instinctual posts" is so much fluff it doesn't account for anything.
Also, what are you talking about "Unrealible" I never once voted Scarlet.
All I'll say is this method of catching scum has been proven to be unreliable for you, referring to your read on Scarlet in Guilty Crown Mafia on MAL.
If you look at the vote counts I was highly accurate with my suspicions of RaidiantCowbells/Shinichi/whoeverelsereplacedthatslot which was my primary scum read that game. I did not read Scarlet as scum, and Scarlet was trying to use a meta read to scum read me. She was wrong, and I told her that multiple times. I think you are miss remembering that game highly.
Ehh, I don't think you're scum though just careless.
Wisp my point is by arguing with and caring about a read you are giving it fuel. If it's that bad ignore it, it's D1 and you are under zero pressure. Don't give it the time of day.
Also you just kind of look like a tool when you're arguing about how bad using meta is while using self meta to explain why the read is bad. Trust your fellow townies.
that insult, i said "I could argue its completely nai", and regardless, contradictions are still come from town more so than scum... I'm fueling the fire, because I'm trying to get this dweeb off me... you talk about my emotions, so this is nothing new from me, id rather solve the problem now, then let the problem persist, and I can efficiently bump heads with him, while still attacking other player's posts
also, you are like a very low-level town at this point, I don't trust you as far as I could throw you yet, and I only weigh 120, so let that sink in
@Grape: I didn't see Vaimes' unaligned comment. Reviewing, I found it, but it's not the same as yours. The issue is not saying that they are unaligned; the issue is the certainty.
@LW: Why do you think town contradict themselves more often? (Both meanings: on what basis do you believe this, and if it is true, what do you think causes it?)
@Grape: I didn't see Vaimes' unaligned comment. Reviewing, I found it, but it's not the same as yours. The issue is not saying that they are unaligned; the issue is the certainty.
Your issue with mine seemed to be based on the nonalignment (to our speaking at cross purposes) more than the certainty. You mentioned the certainty but you seemed more focused on the fact that I should believe one of them was scum when I have no reason to think that.
Why do you think they could be knowingly aligned?
@LW I wasn't asking you to trust me. I was asking you to trust the roughly at least 10 odd townies who had no interest in HR's read and found it entirely not compelling.
@Kami
Somewhere in the deep depths of the Mafia Scum wiki, an old article will tell you, that contradictions are a mafia tell, wolves tend to not care about anything so there thoughts tend to be all over the place, something that over my many games I have noticed is solely untrue...
Scum don't want to bring unneeded attention to themselves, so it is of my belief the completely opposite, they are self-aware, much more than town are, and the last thing they want to do is contradict anything they said... There are few outliers to this, based on personality and skill level, but from what I've seen they will make sure to read their past posts more carefully and will try harder to replicate their town meta from previous games.
Another response to this, is just laying low all together, hence the whole "coasting" argument
@LW I wasn't asking you to trust me. I was asking you to trust the roughly at least 10 odd townies who had no interest in HR's read and found it entirely not compelling.
@LW I wasn't asking you to trust me. I was asking you to trust the roughly at least 10 odd townies who had no interest in HR's read and found it entirely not compelling.
so who are these 10 or so odd townies?
Everyone who ignored HR's case and didn't push you who happens to be town. I'm one. There are others. I'm not sure who they are yet but by the math they have to exist. 10 might be low.
@Kami
Somewhere in the deep depths of the Mafia Scum wiki, an old article will tell you, that contradictions are a mafia tell, wolves tend to not care about anything so there thoughts tend to be all over the place, something that over my many games I have noticed is solely untrue...
Scum don't want to bring unneeded attention to themselves, so it is of my belief the completely opposite, they are self-aware, much more than town are, and the last thing they want to do is contradict anything they said... There are few outliers to this, based on personality and skill level, but from what I've seen they will make sure to read their past posts more carefully and will try harder to replicate their town meta from previous games.
Another response to this, is just laying low all together, hence the whole "coasting" argument
ehhh, Feels like TMI, ill argue its more so because they agree that the case is bad (at least that's how anyone reading his case should see it), not that I'm obvious town, and I would very much like to not die night 1 again...
@Kami
Somewhere in the deep depths of the Mafia Scum wiki, an old article will tell you, that contradictions are a mafia tell, wolves tend to not care about anything so there thoughts tend to be all over the place, something that over my many games I have noticed is solely untrue...
Scum don't want to bring unneeded attention to themselves, so it is of my belief the completely opposite, they are self-aware, much more than town are, and the last thing they want to do is contradict anything they said... There are few outliers to this, based on personality and skill level, but from what I've seen they will make sure to read their past posts more carefully and will try harder to replicate their town meta from previous games.
Another response to this, is just laying low all together, hence the whole "coasting" argument
Its hella easy to stay consistent as scum.
Also, I am Spartacus.
thanks? and "easy" is definitely not always true, it can come off that way because they choose not to focus on anything in particular... they can't be wrong if they let town be wrong for them
if being consistent was easy, scum wouldn't feel the need to write large thought out posts on the subject of their choosing, and more so let their thoughts come out naturally over many posts
@D_V
If your issue with me is that I'm close to giving you a townread but not quite, it's because my gut told me you were town based on how your posts seemed to be made based off instinct (little to hide, and genuine intent to solve and progress the game, combined with a sort of rapid-fire frequency to your posting - basically you seemed like you were on a roll). It was a sense I got from reading your posts, but because those posts were often mechanics-pertaining, better judgment told me I shouldn't rely on it, since mechanical talk is most often objective (equivalent to information instead of analysis), and so easy to make and with little risk of backlash.
On mobile again, but I'm going to read that game later. I could have sworn you jumped on Scarlet for misattributing something to you non-meta-related.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@D_V
If your issue with me is that I'm close to giving you a townread but not quite, it's because my gut told me you were town based on how your posts seemed to be made based off instinct (little to hide, and genuine intent to solve and progress the game, combined with a sort of rapid-fire frequency to your posting - basically you seemed like you were on a roll). It was a sense I got from reading your posts, but because those posts were often mechanics-pertaining, better judgment told me I shouldn't rely on it, since mechanical talk is most often objective (equivalent to information instead of analysis), and so easy to make and with little risk of backlash.
On mobile again, but I'm going to read that game later. I could have sworn you jumped on Scarlet for misattributing something to you non-meta-related.
Fair enough.
I think you're town after this exchange.
I might have forgotten something about that. But I'll I remember is me just being annoyed at Scarlet's meta read of me.
ehhh, Feels like TMI, ill argue its more so because they agree that the case is bad (at least that's how anyone reading his case should see it), not that I'm obvious town, and I would very much like to not die night 1 again...
Whatever. I have no idea what you're calling TMI (well I do, my defense of you, but that doesn't make a ton of sense in context) but this is a pointless waste of space at this stage.
Vote: RE
The DV exchange feels like attempted appeasement and the read feels premature even for a gut read.
lololol posting before refreshing. I guess I had a different takeaway. I'm not getting the impression that RE is trying to do anything but get DV off her case with that exchange.
Other thing with regards to win-conditions: Does this mean there can be multiple different parties winning this game? Like, if one faction fulfills their win condition, and another faction fulfills their win condition, and they're town/mafia and the town/mafia loses, what the hell happens? Is it that you get a tally for how many different ways you won, and the winningest person wins, or does just everyone win?
this is a game of mafia, the only win-cons that matter are, the town win-con, the scum win-con, and the 3p win-con (if one exists), but feel free, to strive for the less beneficial one to your main alignment, if you are town, you aren't helping town while on your current path. If you want to play to a secondary win-con so you can be like, "I AM A WINNER", then feel free to do you, but my secondary win-con isn't a win to me
Hey guys! Let's ignore one of the major facets of this game, which happens to be a mechanic that makes it so that this game function completely abnormally, and also affects the way people might be playing, and never take this into account when considering strategy and counter-strategy at any point!
@HR, I find it funny that you are pointing out that sharing flavor is bad... and in the next great, ask for my faction.
What about leaving wincons and factions out of the mass claim? You have supported partial claims before.
Oh suuuuure. No angle being worked here!
Do you think you're being subtle? You're either fishing for role information to try to ferret out who to target for your win condition, trying to start a bandwagon against me, or both, and it ain't gonna work, buddy.
So what? You're going to claim your faction doesn't have some sort of win condition that corresponds specifically to some other major house in Westeros getting screwed over? Guess what? You can't feign ignorance of that, because I've already posted about it, AND you have the warning about flavor claiming on the first post.
So you want a mass roleclaim? Fine. What the hell faction are you, Mr. I-Want-To-Start-A-Roleclaim-But-Refuse-To-Claim-My-Own-Role-But-It's-Definitely-Not-To-Datamine-People-Or-Anything-Gosh-No-I-Didn't-Even-Read-My-Faction's-Win-Condition-I-Don't-Know-What-You're-Talking-About?
@Highroller I don't know the answer for sure but Shadow suggested it's possible for multiple factions to win. Anyway winning is winning. And more winning is better than less winning. But winning is still winning. We don't have "loss conditions" we have win conditions. It would be hilarious if we could engineer a way for literally everyone to win, but I don't trust any of you enough to try for that, and I'm doubting it's possible.
@HR, I don't want a mass claim. YOU usually do, and have extolled the virtues of throwing the mafia off guard in quite a few games. Surprised you don't feel the same either.
As for factions? I don't have one. *shrug* My wincon is the normal boring town one.
@Grape: I didn't see Vaimes' unaligned comment. Reviewing, I found it, but it's not the same as yours. The issue is not saying that they are unaligned; the issue is the certainty.
Your issue with mine seemed to be based on the nonalignment (to our speaking at cross purposes) more than the certainty. You mentioned the certainty but you seemed more focused on the fact that I should believe one of them was scum when I have no reason to think that.
No, the certainty was the more important part. Perhaps you mistook length of sentence for importance.
LnGrrrR: You... don't have a faction? At all? I find that unbelievable.
Yeah no. Having no faction is a big red flag for me and claiming to just have a town win con means I'mvery sure you're leaving information out. Means you've got something weird going on. Maybe not scum (as lacking a faction doesn't point to that) but worrying me.
lololol posting before refreshing. I guess I had a different takeaway. I'm not getting the impression that RE is trying to do anything but get DV off her case with that exchange.
I wouldn't call it trying to get him off my back, although I'm not sure what else you'd expect me to do in that situation. I gave my thoughts on D_V prior. Now that he's easily shifted the balance from mechanical talk to reads, I'm more comfortable with the townlean.
Even if I was not, lashing back at D_V would be anti-town. I predicted a thunderdome of sorts would happen. It'd be nearly impossible to get out of it once it started - which is bad for town if it's T/T, and still bad for town if he's a wolf because that'd be ineffective way of dealing with him since it'd clog up the thread and deter anyone from reading the argument.
Lots of things get mistakenly attributed to being scum. Concern over one's appearance is one of them. I gave an honest answer in response to D_V's case of me, that it was a misunderstanding on my part (I don't think I was completely unjustified in coming to that conclusion, but it *was* the wrong one). If he chose to read me based off it, there was little I could do. Hence me saying I wouldn't respond to him [if his case was solely based on that]. I wouldn't mind responding if he questioned something other than that - which he did regarding my townlean on him. Which I then gave an explanation for.
(I do realize I'm not giving hard stances. Sooner or later, I'll come to more solid conclusions. Unfortunately that kind of thing requires my attention for more than 20-30 minutes at a time, which is all I can give currently due to my schedule. Have an exam tomorrow, projects to get done.. The next day I'll probably be completely free is Sunday.)
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@KA okay. But like confidence is warranted. There is no way HR attempts to turbo bus his partner that way. And no world where when he does it wisp fights it like crazy and threatens to escalate his reaction further if he doesn't drop his push. I hate rewarding bad behavior but ummm you kind of have to there.
Well, that's interesting. My first thought is, what a strange move for scum to make - claiming something unusual that'd undoubtedly draw attention. It's almost townie. But it's also not in the rulebook.
Each player will not only have a traditional Mafia alignment, but will also be a part of an ingame house or faction that has an alternate wincon (or wincons) that can be achieved in spite of or alongside your main factional win. You will know the members of your house/faction, and share a night chat with them (as such, use of discord is required for this game). You will not know their alignment, and flavor will be functionally random between the factions. It is possible for a player to win two ways.
This may call for an actual claim? Flavor claim, really. There shouldn't be any harm, after all, if LnGrrrR doesn't actually have an alternate win condition.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When the point of no return appears, it is already behind you.
@RE as either alignment I'd expect you to engage. As town I'd less expect you to be as worried about defending the nuances of your read as opposed to the nuances of DV's behavior.
And cool, I'm glad we're on the same page on LnG. It's not scummy but it feels 3rd party-ish.
@HR, I don't want a mass claim. YOU usually do, and have extolled the virtues of throwing the mafia off guard in quite a few games. Surprised you don't feel the same either.
Because nothing about this game is unique. Rrrrrrriiiiiighhhhht...
And that's not even counting the fact that the mod specifically says at the start of the thread that there are risks involved with role claiming!
As for factions? I don't have one. *shrug* My wincon is the normal boring town one.
Each player will not only have a traditional Mafia alignment, but will also be a part of an ingame house or faction that has an alternate wincon (or wincons) that can be achieved in spite of or alongside your main factional win.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Don't really think factionless is alignment indicative on its own.
Could certainly be a solo faction with a win con he wouldn't claim, but kinda think just shutting up is the better version of that...
Don't really think factionless is alignment indicative on its own.
Could certainly be a solo faction
Having a solo faction is not not having a faction. It's having a faction. He's claiming no faction and no alternate win condition. That is obviously a lie.
Each player will not only have a traditional Mafia alignment, but will also be a part of an ingame house or faction that has an alternate wincon (or wincons) that can be achieved in spite of or alongside your main factional win.
It means you're jumping on me for misinterpreting one of your posts while also accusing you of something that is fair - that you've dedicated most of your time on the mechanical portion of the game. Am I being a jerk by accusing you of not reading my posts? Either you haven't, or you're putting more value on my commentary of you, which is pretty darn accurate, over the numerous other posts I've made.
Me accusing you of pursuing an alternate wincon is literally the opposite of shade. It means I'm taking them into account when evaluating off behavior.
y'all cant read me, you will only catch me via PoE
if the dude wants to play one game with me, and then decide he can efficiently read my emotion, or deduce how my mind works, then I will get mad
then he's going to argue that contradictions are scummy? what is this, 2010?
its the same ***** game after game, and I hate how you are just pseudo-defending me while also calling him correct in how he is choosing to read me...
I've seen Shinichi be mislynched for fighting with others over mafia theory instead of scumhunting. It was an unproductive mislynch. I'd be hesitant to scumread him even if he were to "not scumhunt," as sad as that is. I'd be less hesitant to stop defending him though. I'd rather analyze the quality of his posts, and maybe his tunnels, if he does that, rather than how he's playing overall, since his approach can be a bit unusual.
~~
For the record, I know D_V's done this exact same thing as town. Jumping on someone (who was town) for misreading one of their posts, or remembering something about them incorrectly and using it against them. They're an OMGUS-y player. I relate.
The post was worded in a way that made me view it as something that wouldn't help town, but I can believe that there was another reason for it now that it's been explained.
And as I've said earlier, D_V would be a townlean if there was less focus on the mechanical portion of the game. The vote on me's not entirely wasted, from my perspective at least.
~~
@Grape
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/20655-January-D6-Light-Game-Rerand
(Subbed in for day 2, had to sub out because I actually did not have time for the game. I'd say I had a solid day overall though.)
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1762283
(Was lynched day 3, though I should have been dead day 2 since the cop checked me night 1 but got lucky by roleblocking him. I slacked off, but the walls were closing on me anyway.)
Because I don't have anything from you making me feel one way or the other. And given my usual strong (and often incorrect) feelings about you I'm finding it odd that I'm being slower to take a stand than most. Makes me think either some of the reads on you are fake or I'm missing something.
@Wisp A win is a win. No one should be out here actively throwing away either win con. Both are valid ways to win the game and as far as possible you should be doing both.
No
I'm sorry I'm not letting this go.
You're wrong either way.
There are two interpretations of my post.
Either
A) They are all linked together.
Or
B) They are all separate questions.
However, it doesn't matter if we go with your or my interpretation. Either way you can't accuse me of looking to fulfill my alternative win con because the last sentence says "I'd propose that we keep these things underwraps this way we can simply evaluate roles." It doesn't matter which way you interpret this. I'm clearly taking a stance against fulfilling the win conditions either way. There is simply no way to misinterpret this statement by me.
Secondly, you are now arguing that because I voted you I most not have read your posts. Or that at the very least I am ignoring your posts. Your claim is that your posts make you so towny, that me voting you over this is wrong. I think that's a contrive argument to begin with since I don't think that was your meaning and you were just being snippy.
I'll ask you what you have done that makes you town read, or makes it so that I should town read you. You clearly have something in mind. I don't see it though. Most of your posts are running commentary that either alignment could make and then a really really weak read on Shinichi.
You keep saying that you would give me at town read if there was less mechanical focus by me. But what exactly have I done then in this game that is worth the town or the "Townlean" read. A majority of my posts have been slightly mechanical in nature, the rest of them have been largely just me having fun. Nothing I have done should contribute to any read on me what so ever. So, what is it that is making you want to town lean me?
This reeks of too much information to me. You know I'm town, you are looking to give me a town read, and you are saying "I'd give DV a town read if he would stop being mechanical". On its face it seems like a fair statement, but its not a fair statement. The game has been going on for a day now, and on top of that a majority of my content posts have been mechanical. If you throw all of that out I'm not sure how you could ever get anything that makes you want to town lean me. Or even gives a read at all.
On top of that with your last post you clearly haven't read a post still in question with your comment about my ability to read Shinichi.
Ahh well, you should pursue that. I'm on the same train of fake reads.
Not really, Vaimes feels right, I think I agree with your premise on Rod, Grape is a light townlean, everyone else is pretty null. Not familiar with a fair amount of the players and it’s still way too early for me to have a good handle on what I think is going on.
Regardless of my ability to read you I can observe whether your behavior is different or not. HR's reasons to scum read you are wrong. They are surface level observations and don't really have a motivating reason to be different as scum. What he's seeing is true. Step back from his conclusions for a second. What he's seeing is factual. It's a bad way to read you due to all the other games you provided, but if a players only experience with you was these 2 games someone would correctly think you were behaving differently. Given Highroller's penchant for thinking that different = scummy and liking to use level 1 reads until they fail him it makes perfect sense for him to push you her from his prospective. I think he's wrong. I've told him why. But the way you've taken it as a personal affront is just odd. Probably townie with frayed nerves, but I hate giving town cred for bad behavior.
I'm not psuedo defending you. I'm defending you. His case is not good. But the facts it's based on are true. All of those statements are true.
...
I don't think this response is going to be helpful for anyone. And I don't want this to escalate to the same levels in the previous game. So if I don't respond to any of your other posts regarding your read on me, it's because you are likely going to believe what you want to believe with disregard for anything I say afterwards. All I'll say is this method of catching scum has been proven to be unreliable for you, referring to your read on Scarlet in Guilty Crown Mafia on MAL.
I don't really remember arguing they were wrong, like anyone can look at game X, and this game, Y, and find a difference between my Day 1's, honestly if you look hard enough if you can find a difference in a lot of things, the point is, is that read his bad, and then onto the contradictions, they exist, are they necessarily scummy? of course not, town contradict themselves more than scum for the most part, and personally, I contradict myself all the time as either alignment, so I can argue its completely NAI... But he's not going to drop this, and every time I read this thread I'm going to see him post something else about it when at this point I've argued everything I can against it
@Tubba
anything on Shin?
Also you just kind of look like a tool when you're arguing about how bad using meta is while using self meta to explain why the read is bad. Trust your fellow townies.
This is almost verbatim.
This
I'd advise you to start answering my posts seriously.
My entire point and my entire question is how are you close to giving me a town read. "Instinctual posts" is so much fluff it doesn't account for anything.
Also, what are you talking about "Unrealible" I never once voted Scarlet.
If you look at the vote counts I was highly accurate with my suspicions of RaidiantCowbells/Shinichi/whoeverelsereplacedthatslot which was my primary scum read that game. I did not read Scarlet as scum, and Scarlet was trying to use a meta read to scum read me. She was wrong, and I told her that multiple times. I think you are miss remembering that game highly.
Ehh, I don't think you're scum though just careless.
Unvote
also, you are like a very low-level town at this point, I don't trust you as far as I could throw you yet, and I only weigh 120, so let that sink in
@LW: Why do you think town contradict themselves more often? (Both meanings: on what basis do you believe this, and if it is true, what do you think causes it?)
Your issue with mine seemed to be based on the nonalignment (to our speaking at cross purposes) more than the certainty. You mentioned the certainty but you seemed more focused on the fact that I should believe one of them was scum when I have no reason to think that.
Why do you think they could be knowingly aligned?
@LW I wasn't asking you to trust me. I was asking you to trust the roughly at least 10 odd townies who had no interest in HR's read and found it entirely not compelling.
Somewhere in the deep depths of the Mafia Scum wiki, an old article will tell you, that contradictions are a mafia tell, wolves tend to not care about anything so there thoughts tend to be all over the place, something that over my many games I have noticed is solely untrue...
Scum don't want to bring unneeded attention to themselves, so it is of my belief the completely opposite, they are self-aware, much more than town are, and the last thing they want to do is contradict anything they said... There are few outliers to this, based on personality and skill level, but from what I've seen they will make sure to read their past posts more carefully and will try harder to replicate their town meta from previous games.
Another response to this, is just laying low all together, hence the whole "coasting" argument
so who are these 10 or so odd townies?
Everyone who ignored HR's case and didn't push you who happens to be town. I'm one. There are others. I'm not sure who they are yet but by the math they have to exist. 10 might be low.
Its hella easy to stay consistent as scum.
Also, I am Spartacus.
if being consistent was easy, scum wouldn't feel the need to write large thought out posts on the subject of their choosing, and more so let their thoughts come out naturally over many posts
If your issue with me is that I'm close to giving you a townread but not quite, it's because my gut told me you were town based on how your posts seemed to be made based off instinct (little to hide, and genuine intent to solve and progress the game, combined with a sort of rapid-fire frequency to your posting - basically you seemed like you were on a roll). It was a sense I got from reading your posts, but because those posts were often mechanics-pertaining, better judgment told me I shouldn't rely on it, since mechanical talk is most often objective (equivalent to information instead of analysis), and so easy to make and with little risk of backlash.
On mobile again, but I'm going to read that game later. I could have sworn you jumped on Scarlet for misattributing something to you non-meta-related.
Fair enough.
I think you're town after this exchange.
I might have forgotten something about that. But I'll I remember is me just being annoyed at Scarlet's meta read of me.
What about leaving wincons and factions out of the mass claim? You have supported partial claims before.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Whatever. I have no idea what you're calling TMI (well I do, my defense of you, but that doesn't make a ton of sense in context) but this is a pointless waste of space at this stage.
Vote: RE
The DV exchange feels like attempted appeasement and the read feels premature even for a gut read.
I'm honestly reminded of this sketch on Youtube in which Johnny Cage reflects on how Mortal Kombat makes no sense as a tournament, because if P1 is defeated, everyone else must therefore logically win. I imagine the development must have taken that into account with regards to this game, so it isn't like that, but still... So many questions...
Hey guys! Let's ignore one of the major facets of this game, which happens to be a mechanic that makes it so that this game function completely abnormally, and also affects the way people might be playing, and never take this into account when considering strategy and counter-strategy at any point!
Because what even is logic...
Oh suuuuure. No angle being worked here!
Do you think you're being subtle? You're either fishing for role information to try to ferret out who to target for your win condition, trying to start a bandwagon against me, or both, and it ain't gonna work, buddy.
So what? You're going to claim your faction doesn't have some sort of win condition that corresponds specifically to some other major house in Westeros getting screwed over? Guess what? You can't feign ignorance of that, because I've already posted about it, AND you have the warning about flavor claiming on the first post.
So you want a mass roleclaim? Fine. What the hell faction are you, Mr. I-Want-To-Start-A-Roleclaim-But-Refuse-To-Claim-My-Own-Role-But-It's-Definitely-Not-To-Datamine-People-Or-Anything-Gosh-No-I-Didn't-Even-Read-My-Faction's-Win-Condition-I-Don't-Know-What-You're-Talking-About?
Only exception is claiming a direwolf imo
Never lynching
Agreed.
Thoughts on Re?
As for factions? I don't have one. *shrug* My wincon is the normal boring town one.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Vote Highroller I will just leave this here while I am waiting.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
LnGrrrR: You... don't have a faction? At all? I find that unbelievable.
Yeah no. Having no faction is a big red flag for me and claiming to just have a town win con means I'mvery sure you're leaving information out. Means you've got something weird going on. Maybe not scum (as lacking a faction doesn't point to that) but worrying me.
Even if I was not, lashing back at D_V would be anti-town. I predicted a thunderdome of sorts would happen. It'd be nearly impossible to get out of it once it started - which is bad for town if it's T/T, and still bad for town if he's a wolf because that'd be ineffective way of dealing with him since it'd clog up the thread and deter anyone from reading the argument.
Lots of things get mistakenly attributed to being scum. Concern over one's appearance is one of them. I gave an honest answer in response to D_V's case of me, that it was a misunderstanding on my part (I don't think I was completely unjustified in coming to that conclusion, but it *was* the wrong one). If he chose to read me based off it, there was little I could do. Hence me saying I wouldn't respond to him [if his case was solely based on that]. I wouldn't mind responding if he questioned something other than that - which he did regarding my townlean on him. Which I then gave an explanation for.
(I do realize I'm not giving hard stances. Sooner or later, I'll come to more solid conclusions. Unfortunately that kind of thing requires my attention for more than 20-30 minutes at a time, which is all I can give currently due to my schedule. Have an exam tomorrow, projects to get done.. The next day I'll probably be completely free is Sunday.)
This may call for an actual claim? Flavor claim, really. There shouldn't be any harm, after all, if LnGrrrR doesn't actually have an alternate win condition.
LOL
Vote LnGrrR
And cool, I'm glad we're on the same page on LnG. It's not scummy but it feels 3rd party-ish.
The problem is not merely how disingenuous this is, it's also how lazy it is. I've not only outlined the conditions for when a mass claim is beneficial, but you have been in a game in which someone tried to call me out on not pushing a roleclaim and I explained why he was wrong - a game in which I was town.
And that's not even counting the fact that the mod specifically says at the start of the thread that there are risks involved with role claiming!
C'mon man...
Vote LnGrrrR.
I like belly rubs and gnawing the bones of my enemies.
Could certainly be a solo faction with a win con he wouldn't claim, but kinda think just shutting up is the better version of that...
Don't think i particularly want to kill lngrr atm
But, like, how though?