Tom: I see you're saying that Axel's list means he's probably not on a team. I'm not sure I agree on that front specifically.
However, when looking at it again, I did notice something I hadn't noticed the first time through... and it's making me think.
Axel's list is so... vague and nondescript. He put basically no effort into it. I'm wondering if scum Axel would be more... careful? Would scum Axel just kinda YOLO a list together under pressure? Maybe the scum alternative to that list is just refusing Gemma's request on principle or something, which is a defendable position that wouldn't require commitement.
My biggest problem with Axel right now is his hardcore stance on Mind/lurkers (which might well be just a difference of mafia theory opinion? so, Axel: After my list I made a point where I gave a reason I thought Mind might be town. Does the theory make sense? Do you agree/disagree?
Unvote
tom: What was the point of 972 supposed to show me? That there's probably scum in my townreads?
i've accepted that. I mean, maybe I'm giving KCC too much of a pass here? That's the only real thing I can see there.
Gemma: Wait, is your only townread Vezok? Your list has Vez on top, and you said you only had one townread.
Vaimes: Yeah, I haven't liked his targets either. His jump on me didn't feel entirely sincere at the time, and his Mindreaver position is aweful. However, I wanna explore this new angle for a bit. Look at his list, do you agree with either tom's opinion on it or mine?
Gemma: TBH, all this push for readslists doesn't look specifically town to me. The townie version of this is you're trying to fill holes in peoples reads to gauge consistency/inconsistency but then you'd probably just be asking specific people specific questions instead of doing it this way. KCC mentioned that she, as scum, used people's reads to gauge who to mislynch. Or maybe you're doing the opposite, seeing where your buddies fall on them... but my point in general is you're doing what you're doing in the least town way possible.
Silver: Look at my readslist, there's a paragraph on Mind. Do you agree with it? Why or not?
Lets get some serious theory up in this b.
Last: How much more than tone is your townread on Gemma?
Rhand: Because I wasn't reading the rest of the thread before I posted, obviously.
Your point still makes no sense re: Vaimes ISO so whatevers. I'm not gonna twist my brain all up for that.
Pay attention to my next post though, it's gonna be "Why you're scum this game".
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Completely unrelated to the game, but Gemma: can you maybe change your signature?
My work is tour leader for a bunch of retired Americans. yesterday I was reading the game on my ipad on the bus, and the lady sitting behind me was upset that she saw the word ****** on my screen.
She told the hotel manager of our ship afterwards that I was looking up inappropriate websites.
I want to be able to read the thread whenever I have time, so please?
Completely unrelated to the game, but Gemma: can you maybe change your signature?
My work is tour leader for a bunch of retired Americans. yesterday I was reading the game on my ipad on the bus, and the lady sitting behind me was upset that she saw the word ****** on my screen.
She told the hotel manager of our ship afterwards that I was looking up inappropriate websites.
I want to be able to read the thread whenever I have time, so please?
I am very sorry and that is really hilarious in so many ways. Done.
Rhand: Because I wasn't reading the rest of the thread before I posted, obviously.
Your point still makes no sense re: Vaimes ISO so whatevers. I'm not gonna twist my brain all up for that.
Then you explain me why scum!Vaimes would ever tell town!Grape to go and read all his own posts in a vacuum. Grape is a good player. Making him ISO yourself when you’re scum is a completely needless risk.
Pay attention to my next post though, it's gonna be "Why you're scum this game".
Is this supposed to feel intimidating or something? if this is your new scum meta, then I don’t like it.
Right, so how does affect your read on fulcrum? Because she wrote a bunch of words about how Vaimes was treating tom and how that made Vaimes mafia and tom town - those thoughts didn't make much sense to me but I don't actually scumread tom so you may have a different perspective on them.
I'll quote her post here for you. Will comment more on tom specifically in a bit.
Taking him out of your lynch pool isn't ignoring, it's defending.
defend: resist an attack made on (someone or something); protect from harm or danger.
I don't know what kind of hoops you're jumping through to conflate "defend" and "ignore," but these are very different ideas. Is this supposed to be a partner read? A whiteknighting read? A bad townread?
Oh, you actually responded. Didn't notice.
Taking a person out of your lynch pool is saying they shouldn'y be lynched, aka defending.
I don't really get how this is hard: the majority of people in the game have decided that tom should not be lynched today because gimmick or something, therefore does not have to be worried about being lynched. You are a driving force in that, even though you should know not to be. Like, the reason tom messes around here is because he knows he'll get away with it. He doesn't do that on dlp, because he knows he won't get away with it. He doesn't get away with it there, because we build towncircles, and him obfuscating his reads means he can't get into the towncircles. And that's why lynch pools in general are bad, because it's the people outside the towncircle and the people you have decided not to lynch for non-alignment reason, with nothing distinguishing those two groups. It let's you, Vaimes, avoid Tom's attention without having to townread him.
Where this gets interesting is I actually think Tom is town. The way he backed off me when I asked, several other read timings, the way he responded to Rhand, and the way he looked at the Gemma/me stuff all feel towny. But the way he's been treated this game, I think, goes beyond what can just be expected from this site not caring to lynch him early, into scum deliberately avoiding him. And hey, looks like that weirdness is coming from you and Rhand.
Vote: Vaimes
You have an edge of bravado this game. I was townreading it for a while, after your push on Nacho, and your tango with lastwhisper, but that's all you've done. You're voting Axel, and have basically been on him since the beginning of the game, but don't have any real reasoning for it. You're kind of pushing him, but you're not actually try to convince people to join you. You seem to be coming back into the thread with ideas as they develop, but there mostly one liners for people who annoy you (me, last) not the pointed scumhunting you're capable of. You defended mind both when he wrote his hulk hogan post and when he didn't say anything after. You defended Rhand as an easy early mislynch, but didn't address the actual case against him. You're talking the talk, but not walking the walk.
It's worth mentioning that I iso'd you by control f'ing my way through the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something relevant. You're likely not scum with mind anyway, because that defense would've felt very, very bad to make as a partner. So, let's have a go, and see where we land, hmm?
-------------
fulcrum
vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper
Gemma
Asta
dkingsland967
tomsloger
Nachomamma8
KittyCupCake
Silvercrys3467
Axelrod
Killjoy
Jackrito
Grapefruit
M1ndreaver
Vaimes
Rhand
I think she's saying that tom is town and the lack of people pushing him goes beyond "lol!tom just ignore him" and that Vaimes/Rhand have TMI because of the way they're handling him.
I don't ~super agree with her analysis, I think, though my read on Vaimes is drifting a bit
I'd have to check my notes to see if tom is wolf reading fulcrum but if they're town reading each other... Lean towards not w/w and if one is a wolf it's probably tom?
Like, I kind of think wolf!fulcrum tries to keep town!tom's lunch open, though I guess that's a bit less likely here since tom's harder to mislunch than on DLP, and wolf!tom probably has a hard time townreading her if they're partners though I'd need to check the timing on his town read
If tom's wolf or null reading her, partners is definitely a possibility but I don't think there's a case against either of them at the moment.
not really seeing a wolf!killjoy here, he has remained consistent so far
@killjoy
about 70%? like her actual posts seem like someone who is trying to pressure everyone's thoughts into the game
don't see why a wolf would play like this
By the way, when I talk about KJ being wrong about me every time, I am not exaggerating.
In every single game this year where we played together, he was town. And in every single one he got my alignment wrong. He towncleared me when I was mafia and lynched me when I was town. Every time.
Him being this sure of my alignment on Day 1 makes no sense whatsoever after all of that.
consistent in keeping up with the game, producing thoughts, re-evaluating people, asking questions that don't sound like filler
maybe he is right on you, maybe he isn't
honestly, if this is town!killjoy he more wrong than he is right most of the time anyway, so I don't understand why his push on you comes off as malicious? unless I am remembering this wrong? you think is push on you is fake right?
Mind is kind of the most important topic that's happened so far this game I feel, so here's a little explanation on that. I've realized that if he's scum he's beyond the point of really having scum gaining town points for his lynch. It's like, completely stale, and continuing to push that way is just... not good scum play. It's kinda for that reason I'm kinda thinkig that slot is town. I feel like he's more likely town LHF than scum being sacrificed because people keep coming back to it. It's just weird behavior for a scum wagon.
I'm still in the process of deep-reading but that's kinda where I'm at now. I'll draw up specific explanations for whichever spot is asked for, but I'm kinda working on doing them all at once right now/tomorrow.
Really didn't want to talk about Mindreaver but this is more about wagon movement than his posts lol
I don't think this behavior is tied to his alignment. His slot is basically indefensible but it's far far away from the deadline so he gets run up and then people unvote because they don't want to "waste" time in the phase by ending it early.
I'd hazard that even if he's town there's only 1-2 wolves actively voting/pushing him and they'll be pretty indistinguishable from villagers because no one really needs a reason to vote or unvote him at this point and they'll also be trying to find other viable wagons.
I've realized that if he's scum he's beyond the point of really having scum gaining town points for his lynch. It's like, completely stale, and continuing to push that way is just... not good scum play. It's kinda for that reason I'm kinda thinkig that slot is town. I feel like he's more likely town LHF than scum being sacrificed because people keep coming back to it. It's just weird behavior for a scum wagon.
@Gemma: His attitude toward Vezok in 487 doesn't feel like it naturally came about there. He's just like "Vezok likes defending fulcrum a lot." to smear Vezok, but doesn't engage Vezok on the subject until his next post (496), and even votes Vezok before actually asking her to explain herself. He didn't care WHY she was focusing on Vezok. He never did. His intent there was not to put his vote on someone he thought was scum, it was to put his vote on Vezok, because of two reasons he said were scummy (defending fulcrum a bunch and saying that someone didn't miss much of anything 400 posts into the game.)
I also thought 496 was a bit too... calm? but that's more meta than theory so you can take that with a grain of salt. His response to your readlist with a joke is just kinda not how he reacts to things generally, so it might actually be a thing. Same goes for 506.
Now, for his readlist (300). First of all, I found the structure a bit weird. By his own admission, it's based on the ISOs of each player in the playerlist. It's not ordered in any specific way that makes it easily read. Secondly, it's based on ISOs. and does not seem to require context of posts around it, which contributes to the lack of cohesiveness of the reads. It's literally like he formulated the reads as he was making the list. It's not based on the ongoing reads he would have while reading the game naturally. Like, there's a conspicuous lack of townie choices here.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
You misread my post, I was quoting Shakespeare saying that I would give anything for a strong townread. I have several weak and middling townreads.
@Silver
The most interesting slots to me right now are Killjoy, Vaimes, fulcrum and Nacho. And my reads on all them are kind of in a fluid state right now. I'm waiting for something to click in a big way.
I've just started to do some deeper rereads, and threw out the antialign I made between Vaimes and Nacho earlier, which is meaningful for my read on both the slots because when I go over my Vaimes read I realize that several of the bits of scumhunting that I had been townreading him for were oriented around Nacho, and if I can't eliminate that pairing then I have to consider the possibility that the reason that Vaimes displayed a different level of scumhunting with Nacho than with other slots is that it was distancing. If I look at Vaimes sans Nacho interactions, I find it very difficult to get a real townread on him. I was hoping his reaction to pressure started by fulcrum would be persuasive one way or the other, but it hasn't been, so I'm back to a spot with him where I just have to wait and see - my ability to read him is diminished on this site and due to the way that his game has changed over the past year while we haven't been playing together.
As far as Killjoy, my townread on him has weakened after it reached the ~88% mark because I expected him to turn a corner process wise and start forming conclusions based on the questions he's been asking but instead I've felt a bit of a lacking in that regard and struggle to see how his reads are developing over the course of the day. Still need to do a proper reread of him and write down everything I've felt was town / not town and weigh it all up together, but that was my feeling when I did a quick ISO of him yesterday. Would really appreciate your thoughts on him because you have a better sense of his meta and this site's meta than I do. It's often hard for me to get solid reads on a new site because I don't have a clear picture of what is considered scummy on that site and my scumdar calibrations tend to be wonky as a result.
I also went through Vaimes/Killjoy interactions to see if I could find anything that would rule them out as partners and found... actually a lot of really weak interactions and nothing even close to an antialign. So I don't have a very good direction in which to sort them, I feel like I have to sit and wait for them to do things that are clearing and it sucks.
I have a big post for fulcrum that I'm still not sure if I want to post but your thoughts on her Vaimes stuff would be really appreciated. I think if Vaimes and Killjoy are town then the chance of her being town drops a fair bit and this is part of why I'm so concerned about my read on those two. If Killjoy/Vaimes are scum for instance then some of the things that concern me like the way that she's been pushing on Vaimes and the way she's been treating Killjoy actually go away, and turn into her just being right and me being stupid.
And Nacho... I mean, he's made a lot of excellent posts, he looks very very town in words, but I just cannot get there on him. Partly because talking about how people are town is something he is very good at and can do for days as a wolf. But mostly because his pushes have been super underwhelming. So while I think he's town on balance I do have concerns there, but again there's little I can do to resolve him other than what I've tried to do so far. And he's put out so much content that I feel like if he was mafia I would have caught him by now, or at least had concrete suspicions and not just the mild concerns that I do have. But I haven't played with him in ages, and am not as confident about my ability to read him anymore. And this is partly why I'm happy not ending the day yet - he's promised a bunch more posts and I'm still hopeful that I can get there on him one way or the other.
ok so skimmed his iso, ill probably remove the re-evaluating bit
but like I still like his ISO especially compared to Token 2 Mafia
and always wrong doesn't really work, since he can be right here
just feels like he really believes you are a wolf, and he just broke his read down in #1065 which looks really damn townie
Right, so how does affect your read on fulcrum? Because she wrote a bunch of words about how Vaimes was treating tom and how that made Vaimes mafia and tom town - those thoughts didn't make much sense to me but I don't actually scumread tom so you may have a different perspective on them.
I'll quote her post here for you. Will comment more on tom specifically in a bit.
Taking him out of your lynch pool isn't ignoring, it's defending.
defend: resist an attack made on (someone or something); protect from harm or danger.
I don't know what kind of hoops you're jumping through to conflate "defend" and "ignore," but these are very different ideas. Is this supposed to be a partner read? A whiteknighting read? A bad townread?
Oh, you actually responded. Didn't notice.
Taking a person out of your lynch pool is saying they shouldn'y be lynched, aka defending.
I don't really get how this is hard: the majority of people in the game have decided that tom should not be lynched today because gimmick or something, therefore does not have to be worried about being lynched. You are a driving force in that, even though you should know not to be. Like, the reason tom messes around here is because he knows he'll get away with it. He doesn't do that on dlp, because he knows he won't get away with it. He doesn't get away with it there, because we build towncircles, and him obfuscating his reads means he can't get into the towncircles. And that's why lynch pools in general are bad, because it's the people outside the towncircle and the people you have decided not to lynch for non-alignment reason, with nothing distinguishing those two groups. It let's you, Vaimes, avoid Tom's attention without having to townread him.
Where this gets interesting is I actually think Tom is town. The way he backed off me when I asked, several other read timings, the way he responded to Rhand, and the way he looked at the Gemma/me stuff all feel towny. But the way he's been treated this game, I think, goes beyond what can just be expected from this site not caring to lynch him early, into scum deliberately avoiding him. And hey, looks like that weirdness is coming from you and Rhand.
Vote: Vaimes
You have an edge of bravado this game. I was townreading it for a while, after your push on Nacho, and your tango with lastwhisper, but that's all you've done. You're voting Axel, and have basically been on him since the beginning of the game, but don't have any real reasoning for it. You're kind of pushing him, but you're not actually try to convince people to join you. You seem to be coming back into the thread with ideas as they develop, but there mostly one liners for people who annoy you (me, last) not the pointed scumhunting you're capable of. You defended mind both when he wrote his hulk hogan post and when he didn't say anything after. You defended Rhand as an easy early mislynch, but didn't address the actual case against him. You're talking the talk, but not walking the walk.
It's worth mentioning that I iso'd you by control f'ing my way through the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something relevant. You're likely not scum with mind anyway, because that defense would've felt very, very bad to make as a partner. So, let's have a go, and see where we land, hmm?
-------------
fulcrum
vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper
Gemma
Asta
dkingsland967
tomsloger
Nachomamma8
KittyCupCake
Silvercrys3467
Axelrod
Killjoy
Jackrito
Grapefruit
M1ndreaver
Vaimes
Rhand
I think she's saying that tom is town and the lack of people pushing him goes beyond "lol!tom just ignore him" and that Vaimes/Rhand have TMI because of the way they're handling him.
I don't ~super agree with her analysis, I think, though my read on Vaimes is drifting a bit
I'd have to check my notes to see if tom is wolf reading fulcrum but if they're town reading each other... Lean towards not w/w and if one is a wolf it's probably tom?
Like, I kind of think wolf!fulcrum tries to keep town!tom's lunch open, though I guess that's a bit less likely here since tom's harder to mislunch than on DLP, and wolf!tom probably has a hard time townreading her if they're partners though I'd need to check the timing on his town read
If tom's wolf or null reading her, partners is definitely a possibility but I don't think there's a case against either of them at the moment.
Disagree on how she'd treat town!tom. She has so many easy lynches in this game, she doesn't need tom's. Both fulcrum and tom prefer not to bus and I think as partners they would tend towards townreading each other. Thanks for the thoughts.
198 is decent. I voted him basically for the following 4 posts he made though.
The rest of his posts come with varying levels of indifference, except for the fact of him thinking I'm scum for being too confident while at the same time accusing me of tunneling on him. Which he's further scum for because Rhand knows that tunneling would involve being too confident. He knows my confidence level is right where it should be.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
By the way, when I talk about KJ being wrong about me every time, I am not exaggerating.
In every single game this year where we played together, he was town. And in every single one he got my alignment wrong. He towncleared me when I was mafia and lynched me when I was town. Every time.
Him being this sure of my alignment on Day 1 makes no sense whatsoever after all of that.
There was one recent game where you were town that I didn't try to lynch you I think. I was proud of that. I can't remember what game that was though.
You are correct that I do incorrectly townread/nullread you as scum a lot. Maybe that's changed this game. I think it has.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
The login page from twitch doesn’t want to load on my work computer
KJ clearly read my 300 where I had Vezok as scum. He then says my read on Vezok in 487 doesn’t feel like it naturally came about. Which was a read I already had and got strengthened.
When he talks about my 300 now, he belittles the tool ISO’ing people is.
As if it’s scum behaviour to do a reread off ISO’s.
He talks about a lack of cohesiveness of the reads but doesn’t give examples. If you read my 300, you will see my reads are connected and that I do look for context when reading an ISO.
The worst he does is accusing me of not asking Vezok to explain herself, while that is exactly what KJ has been doing to me: he threw a bunch of empty statements in thread and only now that I’m voting him he starts explaining them.
The few questions he did throw at me were weak or already answered.
Also, click that link he just posted in 1070 and look how he misinterprets what I say there to paint a picture of me.
Can he be misguided town? Maybe. But that just doesn’t jive with the strength of his read.
@Gemma: His attitude toward Vezok in 487 doesn't feel like it naturally came about there. He's just like "Vezok likes defending fulcrum a lot." to smear Vezok, but doesn't engage Vezok on the subject until his next post (496), and even votes Vezok before actually asking her to explain herself. He didn't care WHY she was focusing on Vezok. He never did. His intent there was not to put his vote on someone he thought was scum, it was to put his vote on Vezok, because of two reasons he said were scummy (defending fulcrum a bunch and saying that someone didn't miss much of anything 400 posts into the game.)
Vezok:
Again a Nacho voter. The fact that she says he agrees with Vaimes on Nacho probably means that she isn’t scum with Vaimes. Saying later on that Nacho is scum because her posts don’t make sense points to a scummy mindset: not making sense is not a scumtell but something scum looks for when trying to get town lynched (I know that all too well). Also not a fan of the randomness of people she gives reads on.
Her vote on Mind is weak and using omgus as extra confidence is again a scummy mindset: omgus in itself is never a tell but often used by scum during fake hunting.
There’s a possible link with Fulcrum because of the way she defends her.
Verdict: scum
@Vezok: you said you gave a (non)read on LW because of the recent scumgame with him. I was also scum there. Why not give a read on me there
I also thought 496 was a bit too... calm? but that's more meta than theory so you can take that with a grain of salt. His response to your readlist with a joke is just kinda not how he reacts to things generally, so it might actually be a thing. Same goes for 506.
Don't really want to get into meta too much, but noted thanks.
Now, for his readlist (300). First of all, I found the structure a bit weird. By his own admission, it's based on the ISOs of each player in the playerlist. It's not ordered in any specific way that makes it easily read. Secondly, it's based on ISOs. and does not seem to require context of posts around it, which contributes to the lack of cohesiveness of the reads. It's literally like he formulated the reads as he was making the list. It's not based on the ongoing reads he would have while reading the game naturally. Like, there's a conspicuous lack of townie choices here.
Why do you think he would order it differently as town? What do you mean by lack of townie choices?
Have to admit, Rhand, Killjoy's play hasn't really changed since you first townread him in #300. Not entirely sure how believable I find it to be that you've started thinking he's mafia just because he thinks you're mafia. Feel like you're creating an unrealistic expectation by saying that he should've learned that he can't read you well and using that to prop up your read. What's the precedent for that in your head? Do you have an example of Killjoy misreading other players in the past and successfully correcting his treatment of them?
KillJoy:
He’s very easy to read as town, and this is town!him.
I wonder if he can mimick his towngame as scum. I haven’t seen him as scum in a loooong time. But I doubt he can. His towngame is extremely pure.
Verdict: town
LW is town for silly but firmly believed reasons based on phrasing. I can't supply more at this time but I'm close to locking it in.
Vaimes feels a lot more active than recent!Vaimes has. Maybe it's hazy memory but this feels like circa 2 years ago bubbly having fun Vaimes and less effortful slogging through the game Vaimes. I think that suggests town but IDK. Also @Vaimes not going to read back until I'm actually caught up and have had a conversation with someone.
1016 isn't a scum post but I don't agree with it. Unless I've misread the temperature of the game there is no world where Rhand feels the need to give Vaimes credit like that. Doesn't make Rhand town but I think that Rhand and Vaimes aren't any more likely to aligned because of it. In Rhand scum world it could feel like he's trying to get ahead of a shift on Vaimes (since I singalled a willingness to town read him and Vaimes activity spiked which often leads to town reads).
Gemma can be in the town for now pile. Nothing out of her scum range but I don't think she'd be trying this hard right now if she was scum. Mulling it over more but I think I'm happy with it.
I want to read Nacho but I know I won't draw any conclusions that are worthwhile because I have no chance of correctly reading Nacho outside of luck. So going to skip that for now.
@Gemma I'll get you a read list soon but right now it's pretty shallow.
The way Vez went I'm going to hazzard a guess that scum didn't pile on because they were happy for town to do the work. Fulcrum, Axel, and KJ stick out for really bad not reliable theory reasons. As do Shadow and Gemma but given everything else I've read I'm happy to ignore them for now.
Tom and Axel would be fun especially if there is no day chat (seems unlikely given the presence of a Mason and DV's opinions on Day Chat) but probably a point towards those two being unaligned. Fulcrum is terrifying and I'm never going to town clear them but nowhere near enough to vote them yet. Need to reread a few of KJ's posts. I didn't take much away from them.
The way Vez went I'm going to hazzard a guess that scum didn't pile on because they were happy for town to do the work. Fulcrum, Axel, and KJ stick out for really bad not reliable theory reasons. As do Shadow and Gemma but given everything else I've read I'm happy to ignore them for now.
Confused. How does the first sentence connect with the other two? What do you mean re: shadow?
Glidin through the air, ain't cautious
Mind on the ground, need all this kj/rhand w/v Rhand/kj w/v We are all birds, birds of a different feather
we each sing the way we sing and we are all in this together kj/rhand v/v Kj/rhand w/w
The way Vez went I'm going to hazzard a guess that scum didn't pile on because they were happy for town to do the work. Fulcrum, Axel, and KJ stick out for really bad not reliable theory reasons. As do Shadow and Gemma but given everything else I've read I'm happy to ignore them for now.
Confused. How does the first sentence connect with the other two? What do you mean re: shadow?
The first sentence is referring to the wagon formation. As in I think that the way Vez had been posting prior to the claim is the townie sort of posting that leads to towns killing townies. Given that supposition I think scum probably weren't jumping on like crazy and that the people staying off in places that look opportunisitc (I haven't read the game so this is blind VCA so forgive me if it makes no sense in the flow of the game) stick out given that Vez was the "correct" place to pressure.
As for Shadow I don't know if he'd gone MIA at that point but if he hadn't it's very eyebrow raising that he wasn't voting anyone when that all went down.
Glidin through the air, ain't cautious
Mind on the ground, need all this kj/rhand w/v Rhand/kj w/v We are all birds, birds of a different feather
we each sing the way we sing and we are all in this together kj/rhand v/v Kj/rhand w/w
I think scum!Rhand town KJ is definitely in play. Probably note scum!KJ town Rhand though. Could see town/town and agree it's most likely. S/S seems pretty unlikely though.
I think I'll just vote rhand. The 180 on KJ after KJ showed suspicion of him is pretty disturbing. It feels like Rhand is just poking around trying to make a wagon stick. His vote on me was also iffy.
@Rhand: Why would misguided town have less conviction than scum trying to push you? Town usually have a lot more conviction in their reads regardless if they are wrong or right.
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As for Shadow I don't know if he'd gone MIA at that point but if he hadn't it's very eyebrow raising that he wasn't voting anyone when that all went down.
He was mia.
Can you at least skim over what you haven't read? Don't have to do it in one sitting. It's going to be very hard for people to communicate with you or for you to engage with the game in a helpful way if you haven't read the majority of day 1.
As for Shadow I don't know if he'd gone MIA at that point but if he hadn't it's very eyebrow raising that he wasn't voting anyone when that all went down.
He was mia.
Can you at least skim over what you haven't read? Don't have to do it in one sitting. It's going to be very hard for people to communicate with you or for you to engage with the game in a helpful way if you haven't read the majority of day 1.
I'm going to slowly try to make a start on it. But it won't be quick. Till then I think this sort of interaction is valuable if limited.
Grape, is Silver town genuinely feeling adrift in the gamestate or mafia using the gamestate as a way to complain and excuse himself for not doing anything? Or something else? Make a case for me.
Right, so how does affect your read on fulcrum? Because she wrote a bunch of words about how Vaimes was treating tom and how that made Vaimes mafia and tom town - those thoughts didn't make much sense to me but I don't actually scumread tom so you may have a different perspective on them.
I'll quote her post here for you. Will comment more on tom specifically in a bit.
Taking him out of your lynch pool isn't ignoring, it's defending.
defend: resist an attack made on (someone or something); protect from harm or danger.
I don't know what kind of hoops you're jumping through to conflate "defend" and "ignore," but these are very different ideas. Is this supposed to be a partner read? A whiteknighting read? A bad townread?
Oh, you actually responded. Didn't notice.
Taking a person out of your lynch pool is saying they shouldn'y be lynched, aka defending.
I don't really get how this is hard: the majority of people in the game have decided that tom should not be lynched today because gimmick or something, therefore does not have to be worried about being lynched. You are a driving force in that, even though you should know not to be. Like, the reason tom messes around here is because he knows he'll get away with it. He doesn't do that on dlp, because he knows he won't get away with it. He doesn't get away with it there, because we build towncircles, and him obfuscating his reads means he can't get into the towncircles. And that's why lynch pools in general are bad, because it's the people outside the towncircle and the people you have decided not to lynch for non-alignment reason, with nothing distinguishing those two groups. It let's you, Vaimes, avoid Tom's attention without having to townread him.
Where this gets interesting is I actually think Tom is town. The way he backed off me when I asked, several other read timings, the way he responded to Rhand, and the way he looked at the Gemma/me stuff all feel towny. But the way he's been treated this game, I think, goes beyond what can just be expected from this site not caring to lynch him early, into scum deliberately avoiding him. And hey, looks like that weirdness is coming from you and Rhand.
Vote: Vaimes
You have an edge of bravado this game. I was townreading it for a while, after your push on Nacho, and your tango with lastwhisper, but that's all you've done. You're voting Axel, and have basically been on him since the beginning of the game, but don't have any real reasoning for it. You're kind of pushing him, but you're not actually try to convince people to join you. You seem to be coming back into the thread with ideas as they develop, but there mostly one liners for people who annoy you (me, last) not the pointed scumhunting you're capable of. You defended mind both when he wrote his hulk hogan post and when he didn't say anything after. You defended Rhand as an easy early mislynch, but didn't address the actual case against him. You're talking the talk, but not walking the walk.
It's worth mentioning that I iso'd you by control f'ing my way through the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something relevant. You're likely not scum with mind anyway, because that defense would've felt very, very bad to make as a partner. So, let's have a go, and see where we land, hmm?
-------------
fulcrum
vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper
Gemma
Asta
dkingsland967
tomsloger
Nachomamma8
KittyCupCake
Silvercrys3467
Axelrod
Killjoy
Jackrito
Grapefruit
M1ndreaver
Vaimes
Rhand
I think she's saying that tom is town and the lack of people pushing him goes beyond "lol!tom just ignore him" and that Vaimes/Rhand have TMI because of the way they're handling him.
I don't ~super agree with her analysis, I think, though my read on Vaimes is drifting a bit
I'd have to check my notes to see if tom is wolf reading fulcrum but if they're town reading each other... Lean towards not w/w and if one is a wolf it's probably tom?
Like, I kind of think wolf!fulcrum tries to keep town!tom's lunch open, though I guess that's a bit less likely here since tom's harder to mislunch than on DLP, and wolf!tom probably has a hard time townreading her if they're partners though I'd need to check the timing on his town read
If tom's wolf or null reading her, partners is definitely a possibility but I don't think there's a case against either of them at the moment.
@Gemma this one really feels like the sort of wolfy bulling you're referring to. I haven't done an in depth read yet but this feels like it's building towards a wolf read and then completely undercuts it.
Part of me wants to town read that as scum like to avoid that sort of disconnect in their posts but the thrust of the intent feels anti town to me.
I'm going to do a deeper dive in the morning as that has caught my interest.
Yet that multi-quote post with only one response is ALSO weird, and her follow-ups didn't bother explaining.
Oh, I'm phone posting, and sometimes it submits early while I'm fetching quotes or just trying to scroll. There's no deleting or editing allowed, so my next post I filled in the responses.
By the way, when I talk about KJ being wrong about me every time, I am not exaggerating.
In every single game this year where we played together, he was town. And in every single one he got my alignment wrong. He towncleared me when I was mafia and lynched me when I was town. Every time.
Him being this sure of my alignment on Day 1 makes no sense whatsoever after all of that.
I think projecting confidence in his reads is part of his play he's been working on. His push on you doesn't feel insincere
As for w/w, I don't think this kind of theatre would be in kjs scumrange. And I really really don't think scumRhand would trust scumKJ enough to engage in an exchange like this for any length of time without getting them both caught.
Right, so how does affect your read on fulcrum? Because she wrote a bunch of words about how Vaimes was treating tom and how that made Vaimes mafia and tom town - those thoughts didn't make much sense to me but I don't actually scumread tom so you may have a different perspective on them.
I'll quote her post here for you. Will comment more on tom specifically in a bit.
defend: resist an attack made on (someone or something); protect from harm or danger.
I don't know what kind of hoops you're jumping through to conflate "defend" and "ignore," but these are very different ideas. Is this supposed to be a partner read? A whiteknighting read? A bad townread?
Oh, you actually responded. Didn't notice.
Taking a person out of your lynch pool is saying they shouldn'y be lynched, aka defending.
I don't really get how this is hard: the majority of people in the game have decided that tom should not be lynched today because gimmick or something, therefore does not have to be worried about being lynched. You are a driving force in that, even though you should know not to be. Like, the reason tom messes around here is because he knows he'll get away with it. He doesn't do that on dlp, because he knows he won't get away with it. He doesn't get away with it there, because we build towncircles, and him obfuscating his reads means he can't get into the towncircles. And that's why lynch pools in general are bad, because it's the people outside the towncircle and the people you have decided not to lynch for non-alignment reason, with nothing distinguishing those two groups. It let's you, Vaimes, avoid Tom's attention without having to townread him.
Where this gets interesting is I actually think Tom is town. The way he backed off me when I asked, several other read timings, the way he responded to Rhand, and the way he looked at the Gemma/me stuff all feel towny. But the way he's been treated this game, I think, goes beyond what can just be expected from this site not caring to lynch him early, into scum deliberately avoiding him. And hey, looks like that weirdness is coming from you and Rhand.
Vote: Vaimes
You have an edge of bravado this game. I was townreading it for a while, after your push on Nacho, and your tango with lastwhisper, but that's all you've done. You're voting Axel, and have basically been on him since the beginning of the game, but don't have any real reasoning for it. You're kind of pushing him, but you're not actually try to convince people to join you. You seem to be coming back into the thread with ideas as they develop, but there mostly one liners for people who annoy you (me, last) not the pointed scumhunting you're capable of. You defended mind both when he wrote his hulk hogan post and when he didn't say anything after. You defended Rhand as an easy early mislynch, but didn't address the actual case against him. You're talking the talk, but not walking the walk.
It's worth mentioning that I iso'd you by control f'ing my way through the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something relevant. You're likely not scum with mind anyway, because that defense would've felt very, very bad to make as a partner. So, let's have a go, and see where we land, hmm?
-------------
fulcrum
vezokpiraka
Lastwhisper
Gemma
Asta
dkingsland967
tomsloger
Nachomamma8
KittyCupCake
Silvercrys3467
Axelrod
Killjoy
Jackrito
Grapefruit
M1ndreaver
Vaimes
Rhand
I think she's saying that tom is town and the lack of people pushing him goes beyond "lol!tom just ignore him" and that Vaimes/Rhand have TMI because of the way they're handling him.
I don't ~super agree with her analysis, I think, though my read on Vaimes is drifting a bit
I'd have to check my notes to see if tom is wolf reading fulcrum but if they're town reading each other... Lean towards not w/w and if one is a wolf it's probably tom?
Like, I kind of think wolf!fulcrum tries to keep town!tom's lunch open, though I guess that's a bit less likely here since tom's harder to mislunch than on DLP, and wolf!tom probably has a hard time townreading her if they're partners though I'd need to check the timing on his town read
If tom's wolf or null reading her, partners is definitely a possibility but I don't think there's a case against either of them at the moment.
@Gemma this one really feels like the sort of wolfy bulling you're referring to. I haven't done an in depth read yet but this feels like it's building towards a wolf read and then completely undercuts it.
Part of me wants to town read that as scum like to avoid that sort of disconnect in their posts but the thrust of the intent feels anti town to me.
I'm going to do a deeper dive in the morning as that has caught my interest.
Hum
Grapefruit replaced... Slothful?
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@Grape: could you elaborate on this post specifically? It seems unrelated to what Gemma asked (this isn't one of the posts where I'm complaining about the game state) and you mention it feels like "wolfy bulling" and then say that it's building towards a wolf read then undercuts it... am I supposed to be tom's partner trying to deflect from him?
The intent was to connect my post about "what if tom is a wolf" to fulcrum's read on him and try to figure out how it relates to how he's reading fulcrum (and how fulcrum is reading him). What is anti-town about the thrust of it?
I've just started to do some deeper rereads, and threw out the antialign I made between Vaimes and Nacho earlier, which is meaningful for my read on both the slots because when I go over my Vaimes read I realize that several of the bits of scumhunting that I had been townreading him for were oriented around Nacho, and if I can't eliminate that pairing then I have to consider the possibility that the reason that Vaimes displayed a different level of scumhunting with Nacho than with other slots is that it was distancing. If I look at Vaimes sans Nacho interactions, I find it very difficult to get a real townread on him. I was hoping his reaction to pressure started by fulcrum would be persuasive one way or the other, but it hasn't been, so I'm back to a spot with him where I just have to wait and see - my ability to read him is diminished on this site and due to the way that his game has changed over the past year while we haven't been playing together.
This is kind of where I'm at with Vaimes but I'm not necessarily sure it was theater. There's a pretty decent chance that wolf!Vaimes just saw Nacho's messy entrance and pushed it because he could and then he lost motivation to post. I don't really want Vaimes to be a wolf, it's been ages since we were both town, but yeah my read on him is drifting a lot from the early game.
As far as Killjoy, my townread on him has weakened after it reached the ~88% mark because I expected him to turn a corner process wise and start forming conclusions based on the questions he's been asking but instead I've felt a bit of a lacking in that regard and struggle to see how his reads are developing over the course of the day. Still need to do a proper reread of him and write down everything I've felt was town / not town and weigh it all up together, but that was my feeling when I did a quick ISO of him yesterday. Would really appreciate your thoughts on him because you have a better sense of his meta and this site's meta than I do. It's often hard for me to get solid reads on a new site because I don't have a clear picture of what is considered scummy on that site and my scumdar calibrations tend to be wonky as a result.
Yeah I can go through Killjoy, probably do Axel first and then talk about him.
Thing is is, I don't actually think Killjoy has had a wolf game in a year or so despite playing a bunch of games, so my meta isn't going to be very good. My impression is that Killjoy sort of plays like a newer player despite having a ton of experience and his town style started to shift over his last couple of games (starting with Eurovision). I'm townreading him because this sort of investigative quizzing is newish for his town game and I'm not sure he'd be able to integrate into his wolf game. His analysis of the Mindreaver wagon is a great example of something I'm not sure he thinks to do or knows how to manipulate as a wolf, I just don't agree with where he lands on it.
I also went through Vaimes/Killjoy interactions to see if I could find anything that would rule them out as partners and found... actually a lot of really weak interactions and nothing even close to an antialign. So I don't have a very good direction in which to sort them, I feel like I have to sit and wait for them to do things that are clearing and it sucks.
This is kind of how I feel about the whole game and Day 1 in a general sense lol. I'm gonna investigate some other avenues (Axel, then Killjoy for you) because right now my reads have a lot of inertia from the early game but like... I've observed the game and these are my reads to some extent and it's hard for me to reevaluate without seeing some hard flips. I started rereading with Vezok!town in mind but it kind of just told me that Rhand wasn't hard bussing her when he voted her. I'll probably look at the Vezok wagon at some point but I ~think~ Grape is pretty close, most of the wolves would have avoided the mislunch bait wagon that early in the phase.
I have a big post for fulcrum that I'm still not sure if I want to post but your thoughts on her Vaimes stuff would be really appreciated. I think if Vaimes and Killjoy are town then the chance of her being town drops a fair bit and this is part of why I'm so concerned about my read on those two. If Killjoy/Vaimes are scum for instance then some of the things that concern me like the way that she's been pushing on Vaimes and the way she's been treating Killjoy actually go away, and turn into her just being right and me being stupid.
Yeah, her Vaimes and Nacho stuff both is... ~weird and the main reason I'm not really town leaning her right now. I'll go back and look at her Killjoy posts, but mainly the way she like, half wolfread/interrogated Nacho on entrance felt kind of strange and her push on Vaimes is. Yeah. In worlds where Vaimes is a wolf it's very strange for a bus but I don't really agree with her characterization of Vaimes' play regarding tom.
And Nacho... I mean, he's made a lot of excellent posts, he looks very very town in words, but I just cannot get there on him. Partly because talking about how people are town is something he is very good at and can do for days as a wolf. But mostly because his pushes have been super underwhelming. So while I think he's town on balance I do have concerns there, but again there's little I can do to resolve him other than what I've tried to do so far. And he's put out so much content that I feel like if he was mafia I would have caught him by now, or at least had concrete suspicions and not just the mild concerns that I do have. But I haven't played with him in ages, and am not as confident about my ability to read him anymore. And this is partly why I'm happy not ending the day yet - he's promised a bunch more posts and I'm still hopeful that I can get there on him one way or the other.
I played town against wolf!Nacho in Horsemen (I think?) a couple of years ago and I think we caught him mechanically, I was town reading him at the time. I have a bit of paranoia there but he does seem very town and I don't want to lunch him at the moment.
Disagree on how she'd treat town!tom. She has so many easy lynches in this game, she doesn't need tom's. Both fulcrum and tom prefer not to bus and I think as partners they would tend towards townreading each other. Thanks for the thoughts.
Well, kind of. When tom says he "doesn't like to bus" what he's saying isn't "I don't like to wolf read partners" but "I don't push partners off a cliff" and I don't feel like he's positioned to power wolf right now. I think fulcrum would town read him if they're partners but I'd expect fulcrum to be nullish to him and for him to be actively avoiding pushing her while shading her occasionally for distance.
Oh, haha. I just went back to check and he's wolf reading her.
So... Axelrod. Not quoting a lot of stuff because I don't really feel like it, his iso's only three pages.
I intially townread him for his early KCC push that I thought was trying to break RVS. It's a bit weaker since he admits he wasn't actually trying to do that, just poking, but that ~kind of reinforces the read. As a wolf I think he might try to take the credit I was giving him instead of admitting he didn't do that, though that's rather small, of course. It doesn't really read like theater, either, seems really weird to go after a partner's gambit like that (though day chat, I guess. Still lean towards not w/w though.)
Ok, so I guess this is your explanation for why you were satisfied with KCC's response. I am having trouble parsing this. You thought:
(1) KCC might be a new player, and by pressing her you might get her to claim, and thus confirm her as Town? Because
(2) You couldn't think of a (good) Town role that sounds scummy? So the risk of outing said role was outweighed by the benefit of getting a strong town read? And,
(3) You also hoped she would be around to answer your pressing her in real time, to get some more instant reactions, I guess? But
(4) That didn't happen, so when she finally did respond with "I know what I'm doing, leave me alone" you were satisfied.
Is that correct?
I got the impression that KCC is a newer player. I don't feel it's likely at all that her scumbuddies coached her to say "hi, my role is scummy and I'd lynch it if someone claimed it!". If I got her to claim early and she claimed early on something that makes sense (rolecop has been brought up and works as an example), that would go a very long way in me trusting her being town.
I can't think of any town roles that are actually scummy because my thoughts on what a scummy role are differ very strongly than MTGS's thoughts on what scummy roles are. I think the chance of her being something that really doesn't need to out at this point are low and I think that she wouldn't go "my role is scummy!" if she was that afraid unless she was lying and instead trying to reduce chances of getting shot early.
When I didn't get the chance to engage her in the early game (or in real time at all), I gave up - it was a line of pursuit I was interested in if I could catch some real-time thought processes (less likely she's being coached) or if I could get a significant response early in the game before scum had the chance to coach her up into a better response, but that window passed and so I was satisfied with her claiming that she wasn't anything actively harmful.
So, this is a bit of a Red Flag for me. The "Tom is Tom" remark.
Your explanation for this being a red flag is that it's a lazy "read" on tom - but I've already given a townread on Tom and explained why I thought so, so I don't really buy that.
You don't buy that I think that, or you don't buy it specifically as it refers to you because you gave a read in some other post I don't remember?
My point in saying that "Tom is Tom" is that "Tom has played for a while and this is well-established that this is something he does" so I don't really understand how you ended up where you did.
Where do you think I ended up, Nacho? I am curious to hear.
I would still like for you to provide wider brush strokes than what you have so far; you're currently pushing things that don't have much to do with the gamestate at all;
I'm "pushing" what I feel like and what interests me in the moment. I am also skimming a lot. Generally speaking, I will go back when there's more posts and review specific people.
are you telling me that you don't have a single townread at this stage?
Am I telling you that? I don't think I am. I don't think I even said anything like that.
Although, I will tell you (since you're asking so nicely) that I don't have any especially strong Town reads. Or scum reads. Nor do I expect to have them. Nor does that bother me at all at this stage. Nor should it bother anyone else (but that's just me talking there).
You don't buy that I think that, or you don't buy it specifically as it refers to you because you gave a read in some other post I don't remember?
I don't buy that I said that "Tom is Tom and you won't change him" and you interpreted that as "Nacho is refusing to give a read on Tom" as you said you did in your response to Rhand.
Ok, pet peeve incoming. I really try to be accurate when I'm saying something and I try to avoid hyperbole (I'm sure some slips in now and again). But I did not say at any point "Nacho is refusing to give a read on Tom". I said that - for me - seeing someone go "Tom is Tom" (or really, "anyone" is "anyone") as a read on someone is a Red Flag. Rhand said "Why" and I gave the answer I gave, which was not actually specific to you, nor was I even thinking at the time who had said it when I was replying to Rhand.
I even allowed that it's not just scum who say it. And in as much as you have already given a read on Tom (which, reminder, I do not remember if you have or what it is) that part of it wouldn't exactly apply anyway, would it? It would be different if I was mischaracterizing you, but I'm not, you're mis-characterizing me - twice.
I still think it's a kind of lazy shorthand which is not very helpful and which scum like to use.
Although, I will tell you (since you're asking so nicely) that I don't have any especially strong Town reads. Or scum reads. Nor do I expect to have them. Nor does that bother me at all at this stage. Nor should it bother anyone else (but that's just me talking there).
You are bothered by KCC because her claim was bad and she's not a bad player (although you don't seem to think that her claim is scummy) and because you don't really understand why she claimed because she would have done it differently. I agree, but someone making a bad move =/= scum and you're beating a dead horse; what are you expecting to get out of your questioning here? You're not pushing for her to claim, so - what are you pushing for her for?
I'm not beating the horse at all. More hyperbole?
Here's a tiny insight: I want her to speak more. Period.
You also vaguely pointed out that Tom's rapping was scummish but it's also just bad because it doesn't benefit town whatsoever, but 305 seems to imply you think it's just dumb and not scum.
It is dumb. It might be from scum. "Scummish" is about as precise as I can get there.
I'm not asking for super fleshed out reads but I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask for more at this stage, or to try to derail you from current KCC thoughts when I don't feel you're getting anything new out of it; I get it, you have your playstyle, but you clearly have thoughts elsewhere and those thoughts would be much more helpful in reading you than the current lines you're pushing - why not share?
Well, believe it or not, I've not formed much in the way of opinions, and I don't think me giving a bunch of off the cuff gut reads would be helpful at all. I don't know what "stage" you consider this, but for me, this is the "nobody knows anything" stage, and it's another pet peeve of mine when people post about others with way more certainty than they ought to be having.
This back and forth with Nacho has a weird edge in it that I don't think comes from partners, either.
In fact, most of his posts/interactions have this kind of sardonic/condescending tone that I associate with some experienced villagers. He's like, incredulous about how people could think some way other than he does. It's very prickly and trying to like, wrap his head around why other people are so wrong. It's not a very good style for wolves because it's not very effective at manipulating people.
His read on me is consistent with players who haven't played with me before, people get weird vibes from my posts and I feel like his "trying to get Mindreaver lunched so sneaky no trust" read is the same kind of thing where my posts feel unnatural/uncanny to him and he's trying to find a reason for it.
I dunno, it's still not a strong read but I don't really think he's a wolf. His pushes don't feel coordinated.
The biggest thing that makes me uneasy is that he isn't really posting about his reads much just picking through the thread. Like his two biggest wolf reads seem to be KCC and Mindreaver, and he hasn't really evolved his KCC read that I can see, he's just tunneling from RVS and he's interrogating her activity level but she has just as many posts as he does.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
However, when looking at it again, I did notice something I hadn't noticed the first time through... and it's making me think.
Axel's list is so... vague and nondescript. He put basically no effort into it. I'm wondering if scum Axel would be more... careful? Would scum Axel just kinda YOLO a list together under pressure? Maybe the scum alternative to that list is just refusing Gemma's request on principle or something, which is a defendable position that wouldn't require commitement.
My biggest problem with Axel right now is his hardcore stance on Mind/lurkers (which might well be just a difference of mafia theory opinion? so,
Axel: After my list I made a point where I gave a reason I thought Mind might be town. Does the theory make sense? Do you agree/disagree?
Unvote
tom: What was the point of 972 supposed to show me? That there's probably scum in my townreads?
i've accepted that. I mean, maybe I'm giving KCC too much of a pass here? That's the only real thing I can see there.
Gemma: Wait, is your only townread Vezok? Your list has Vez on top, and you said you only had one townread.
Vaimes: Yeah, I haven't liked his targets either. His jump on me didn't feel entirely sincere at the time, and his Mindreaver position is aweful. However, I wanna explore this new angle for a bit. Look at his list, do you agree with either tom's opinion on it or mine?
Gemma: TBH, all this push for readslists doesn't look specifically town to me. The townie version of this is you're trying to fill holes in peoples reads to gauge consistency/inconsistency but then you'd probably just be asking specific people specific questions instead of doing it this way. KCC mentioned that she, as scum, used people's reads to gauge who to mislynch. Or maybe you're doing the opposite, seeing where your buddies fall on them... but my point in general is you're doing what you're doing in the least town way possible.
Silver: Look at my readslist, there's a paragraph on Mind. Do you agree with it? Why or not?
Lets get some serious theory up in this b.
Last: How much more than tone is your townread on Gemma?
Rhand: Because I wasn't reading the rest of the thread before I posted, obviously.
Your point still makes no sense re: Vaimes ISO so whatevers. I'm not gonna twist my brain all up for that.
Pay attention to my next post though, it's gonna be "Why you're scum this game".
My work is tour leader for a bunch of retired Americans. yesterday I was reading the game on my ipad on the bus, and the lady sitting behind me was upset that she saw the word ****** on my screen.
She told the hotel manager of our ship afterwards that I was looking up inappropriate websites.
I want to be able to read the thread whenever I have time, so please?
Then you explain me why scum!Vaimes would ever tell town!Grape to go and read all his own posts in a vacuum. Grape is a good player. Making him ISO yourself when you’re scum is a completely needless risk.
Is this supposed to feel intimidating or something? if this is your new scum meta, then I don’t like it.
I don't ~super agree with her analysis, I think, though my read on Vaimes is drifting a bit
I'd have to check my notes to see if tom is wolf reading fulcrum but if they're town reading each other... Lean towards not w/w and if one is a wolf it's probably tom?
Like, I kind of think wolf!fulcrum tries to keep town!tom's lunch open, though I guess that's a bit less likely here since tom's harder to mislunch than on DLP, and wolf!tom probably has a hard time townreading her if they're partners though I'd need to check the timing on his town read
If tom's wolf or null reading her, partners is definitely a possibility but I don't think there's a case against either of them at the moment.
@killjoy
about 70%? like her actual posts seem like someone who is trying to pressure everyone's thoughts into the game
don't see why a wolf would play like this
In every single game this year where we played together, he was town. And in every single one he got my alignment wrong. He towncleared me when I was mafia and lynched me when I was town. Every time.
Him being this sure of my alignment on Day 1 makes no sense whatsoever after all of that.
maybe he is right on you, maybe he isn't
honestly, if this is town!killjoy he more wrong than he is right most of the time anyway, so I don't understand why his push on you comes off as malicious? unless I am remembering this wrong? you think is push on you is fake right?
@killjoy
you've been voting Rhand since #517? do you like any of his posts?
I don't think this behavior is tied to his alignment. His slot is basically indefensible but it's far far away from the deadline so he gets run up and then people unvote because they don't want to "waste" time in the phase by ending it early.
I'd hazard that even if he's town there's only 1-2 wolves actively voting/pushing him and they'll be pretty indistinguishable from villagers because no one really needs a reason to vote or unvote him at this point and they'll also be trying to find other viable wagons.
And if he's a wolf this is doubly true.
@killjoy
wot? what is exactly not good scum play?
I also thought 496 was a bit too... calm? but that's more meta than theory so you can take that with a grain of salt. His response to your readlist with a joke is just kinda not how he reacts to things generally, so it might actually be a thing. Same goes for 506.
Now, for his readlist (300). First of all, I found the structure a bit weird. By his own admission, it's based on the ISOs of each player in the playerlist. It's not ordered in any specific way that makes it easily read. Secondly, it's based on ISOs. and does not seem to require context of posts around it, which contributes to the lack of cohesiveness of the reads. It's literally like he formulated the reads as he was making the list. It's not based on the ongoing reads he would have while reading the game naturally. Like, there's a conspicuous lack of townie choices here.
You misread my post, I was quoting Shakespeare saying that I would give anything for a strong townread. I have several weak and middling townreads.
@Silver
The most interesting slots to me right now are Killjoy, Vaimes, fulcrum and Nacho. And my reads on all them are kind of in a fluid state right now. I'm waiting for something to click in a big way.
I've just started to do some deeper rereads, and threw out the antialign I made between Vaimes and Nacho earlier, which is meaningful for my read on both the slots because when I go over my Vaimes read I realize that several of the bits of scumhunting that I had been townreading him for were oriented around Nacho, and if I can't eliminate that pairing then I have to consider the possibility that the reason that Vaimes displayed a different level of scumhunting with Nacho than with other slots is that it was distancing. If I look at Vaimes sans Nacho interactions, I find it very difficult to get a real townread on him. I was hoping his reaction to pressure started by fulcrum would be persuasive one way or the other, but it hasn't been, so I'm back to a spot with him where I just have to wait and see - my ability to read him is diminished on this site and due to the way that his game has changed over the past year while we haven't been playing together.
As far as Killjoy, my townread on him has weakened after it reached the ~88% mark because I expected him to turn a corner process wise and start forming conclusions based on the questions he's been asking but instead I've felt a bit of a lacking in that regard and struggle to see how his reads are developing over the course of the day. Still need to do a proper reread of him and write down everything I've felt was town / not town and weigh it all up together, but that was my feeling when I did a quick ISO of him yesterday. Would really appreciate your thoughts on him because you have a better sense of his meta and this site's meta than I do. It's often hard for me to get solid reads on a new site because I don't have a clear picture of what is considered scummy on that site and my scumdar calibrations tend to be wonky as a result.
I also went through Vaimes/Killjoy interactions to see if I could find anything that would rule them out as partners and found... actually a lot of really weak interactions and nothing even close to an antialign. So I don't have a very good direction in which to sort them, I feel like I have to sit and wait for them to do things that are clearing and it sucks.
I have a big post for fulcrum that I'm still not sure if I want to post but your thoughts on her Vaimes stuff would be really appreciated. I think if Vaimes and Killjoy are town then the chance of her being town drops a fair bit and this is part of why I'm so concerned about my read on those two. If Killjoy/Vaimes are scum for instance then some of the things that concern me like the way that she's been pushing on Vaimes and the way she's been treating Killjoy actually go away, and turn into her just being right and me being stupid.
And Nacho... I mean, he's made a lot of excellent posts, he looks very very town in words, but I just cannot get there on him. Partly because talking about how people are town is something he is very good at and can do for days as a wolf. But mostly because his pushes have been super underwhelming. So while I think he's town on balance I do have concerns there, but again there's little I can do to resolve him other than what I've tried to do so far. And he's put out so much content that I feel like if he was mafia I would have caught him by now, or at least had concrete suspicions and not just the mild concerns that I do have. But I haven't played with him in ages, and am not as confident about my ability to read him anymore. And this is partly why I'm happy not ending the day yet - he's promised a bunch more posts and I'm still hopeful that I can get there on him one way or the other.
but like I still like his ISO especially compared to Token 2 Mafia
and always wrong doesn't really work, since he can be right here
just feels like he really believes you are a wolf, and he just broke his read down in #1065 which looks really damn townie
The rest of his posts come with varying levels of indifference, except for the fact of him thinking I'm scum for being too confident while at the same time accusing me of tunneling on him. Which he's further scum for because Rhand knows that tunneling would involve being too confident. He knows my confidence level is right where it should be.
You are correct that I do incorrectly townread/nullread you as scum a lot. Maybe that's changed this game. I think it has.
Last: Hm. Maybe. You could be right? Posts like 1067 are pulling me back that way? I need to reread her I think perhaps.
KJ clearly read my 300 where I had Vezok as scum. He then says my read on Vezok in 487 doesn’t feel like it naturally came about. Which was a read I already had and got strengthened.
When he talks about my 300 now, he belittles the tool ISO’ing people is.
As if it’s scum behaviour to do a reread off ISO’s.
He talks about a lack of cohesiveness of the reads but doesn’t give examples. If you read my 300, you will see my reads are connected and that I do look for context when reading an ISO.
The worst he does is accusing me of not asking Vezok to explain herself, while that is exactly what KJ has been doing to me: he threw a bunch of empty statements in thread and only now that I’m voting him he starts explaining them.
The few questions he did throw at me were weak or already answered.
Also, click that link he just posted in 1070 and look how he misinterprets what I say there to paint a picture of me.
Can he be misguided town? Maybe. But that just doesn’t jive with the strength of his read.
Don't really want to get into meta too much, but noted thanks.
Why do you think he would order it differently as town? What do you mean by lack of townie choices?
Back in it now, catching up as promised.
LW is town for silly but firmly believed reasons based on phrasing. I can't supply more at this time but I'm close to locking it in.
Vaimes feels a lot more active than recent!Vaimes has. Maybe it's hazy memory but this feels like circa 2 years ago bubbly having fun Vaimes and less effortful slogging through the game Vaimes. I think that suggests town but IDK. Also @Vaimes not going to read back until I'm actually caught up and have had a conversation with someone.
1016 isn't a scum post but I don't agree with it. Unless I've misread the temperature of the game there is no world where Rhand feels the need to give Vaimes credit like that. Doesn't make Rhand town but I think that Rhand and Vaimes aren't any more likely to aligned because of it. In Rhand scum world it could feel like he's trying to get ahead of a shift on Vaimes (since I singalled a willingness to town read him and Vaimes activity spiked which often leads to town reads).
Gemma can be in the town for now pile. Nothing out of her scum range but I don't think she'd be trying this hard right now if she was scum. Mulling it over more but I think I'm happy with it.
I want to read Nacho but I know I won't draw any conclusions that are worthwhile because I have no chance of correctly reading Nacho outside of luck. So going to skip that for now.
@Gemma I'll get you a read list soon but right now it's pretty shallow.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
806 makes me feel a lot better about DK and worse about Tom.
Vote: Tom
Tom and Axel would be fun especially if there is no day chat (seems unlikely given the presence of a Mason and DV's opinions on Day Chat) but probably a point towards those two being unaligned. Fulcrum is terrifying and I'm never going to town clear them but nowhere near enough to vote them yet. Need to reread a few of KJ's posts. I didn't take much away from them.
Mind on the ground, need all this
kj/rhand w/vRhand/kj w/vWe are all birds, birds of a different feather
we each sing the way we sing and we are all in this together
kj/rhand v/v
Kj/rhand w/w
The first sentence is referring to the wagon formation. As in I think that the way Vez had been posting prior to the claim is the townie sort of posting that leads to towns killing townies. Given that supposition I think scum probably weren't jumping on like crazy and that the people staying off in places that look opportunisitc (I haven't read the game so this is blind VCA so forgive me if it makes no sense in the flow of the game) stick out given that Vez was the "correct" place to pressure.
As for Shadow I don't know if he'd gone MIA at that point but if he hadn't it's very eyebrow raising that he wasn't voting anyone when that all went down.
I think scum!Rhand town KJ is definitely in play. Probably note scum!KJ town Rhand though. Could see town/town and agree it's most likely. S/S seems pretty unlikely though.
@Rhand: Why would misguided town have less conviction than scum trying to push you? Town usually have a lot more conviction in their reads regardless if they are wrong or right.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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Can you at least skim over what you haven't read? Don't have to do it in one sitting. It's going to be very hard for people to communicate with you or for you to engage with the game in a helpful way if you haven't read the majority of day 1.
I'm going to slowly try to make a start on it. But it won't be quick. Till then I think this sort of interaction is valuable if limited.
@Gemma this one really feels like the sort of wolfy bulling you're referring to. I haven't done an in depth read yet but this feels like it's building towards a wolf read and then completely undercuts it.
Part of me wants to town read that as scum like to avoid that sort of disconnect in their posts but the thrust of the intent feels anti town to me.
I'm going to do a deeper dive in the morning as that has caught my interest.
Oh, I'm phone posting, and sometimes it submits early while I'm fetching quotes or just trying to scroll. There's no deleting or editing allowed, so my next post I filled in the responses.
I think projecting confidence in his reads is part of his play he's been working on. His push on you doesn't feel insincere
Who are the easy lynches here?
As for w/w, I don't think this kind of theatre would be in kjs scumrange. And I really really don't think scumRhand would trust scumKJ enough to engage in an exchange like this for any length of time without getting them both caught.
Grapefruit replaced... Slothful?
-------------
@Grape: could you elaborate on this post specifically? It seems unrelated to what Gemma asked (this isn't one of the posts where I'm complaining about the game state) and you mention it feels like "wolfy bulling" and then say that it's building towards a wolf read then undercuts it... am I supposed to be tom's partner trying to deflect from him?
The intent was to connect my post about "what if tom is a wolf" to fulcrum's read on him and try to figure out how it relates to how he's reading fulcrum (and how fulcrum is reading him). What is anti-town about the thrust of it?
Yeah I can go through Killjoy, probably do Axel first and then talk about him.
Thing is is, I don't actually think Killjoy has had a wolf game in a year or so despite playing a bunch of games, so my meta isn't going to be very good. My impression is that Killjoy sort of plays like a newer player despite having a ton of experience and his town style started to shift over his last couple of games (starting with Eurovision). I'm townreading him because this sort of investigative quizzing is newish for his town game and I'm not sure he'd be able to integrate into his wolf game. His analysis of the Mindreaver wagon is a great example of something I'm not sure he thinks to do or knows how to manipulate as a wolf, I just don't agree with where he lands on it.
This is kind of how I feel about the whole game and Day 1 in a general sense lol. I'm gonna investigate some other avenues (Axel, then Killjoy for you) because right now my reads have a lot of inertia from the early game but like... I've observed the game and these are my reads to some extent and it's hard for me to reevaluate without seeing some hard flips. I started rereading with Vezok!town in mind but it kind of just told me that Rhand wasn't hard bussing her when he voted her. I'll probably look at the Vezok wagon at some point but I ~think~ Grape is pretty close, most of the wolves would have avoided the mislunch bait wagon that early in the phase.
Yeah, her Vaimes and Nacho stuff both is... ~weird and the main reason I'm not really town leaning her right now. I'll go back and look at her Killjoy posts, but mainly the way she like, half wolfread/interrogated Nacho on entrance felt kind of strange and her push on Vaimes is. Yeah. In worlds where Vaimes is a wolf it's very strange for a bus but I don't really agree with her characterization of Vaimes' play regarding tom.
I played town against wolf!Nacho in Horsemen (I think?) a couple of years ago and I think we caught him mechanically, I was town reading him at the time. I have a bit of paranoia there but he does seem very town and I don't want to lunch him at the moment.
Well, kind of. When tom says he "doesn't like to bus" what he's saying isn't "I don't like to wolf read partners" but "I don't push partners off a cliff" and I don't feel like he's positioned to power wolf right now. I think fulcrum would town read him if they're partners but I'd expect fulcrum to be nullish to him and for him to be actively avoiding pushing her while shading her occasionally for distance.
Oh, haha. I just went back to check and he's wolf reading her. Do you think that makes them not partners since they'd tend towards town reading each other from your point of view?
I intially townread him for his early KCC push that I thought was trying to break RVS. It's a bit weaker since he admits he wasn't actually trying to do that, just poking, but that ~kind of reinforces the read. As a wolf I think he might try to take the credit I was giving him instead of admitting he didn't do that, though that's rather small, of course. It doesn't really read like theater, either, seems really weird to go after a partner's gambit like that (though day chat, I guess. Still lean towards not w/w though.)
In fact, most of his posts/interactions have this kind of sardonic/condescending tone that I associate with some experienced villagers. He's like, incredulous about how people could think some way other than he does. It's very prickly and trying to like, wrap his head around why other people are so wrong. It's not a very good style for wolves because it's not very effective at manipulating people.
His read on me is consistent with players who haven't played with me before, people get weird vibes from my posts and I feel like his "trying to get Mindreaver lunched so sneaky no trust" read is the same kind of thing where my posts feel unnatural/uncanny to him and he's trying to find a reason for it.
I dunno, it's still not a strong read but I don't really think he's a wolf. His pushes don't feel coordinated.
The biggest thing that makes me uneasy is that he isn't really posting about his reads much just picking through the thread. Like his two biggest wolf reads seem to be KCC and Mindreaver, and he hasn't really evolved his KCC read that I can see, he's just tunneling from RVS and he's interrogating her activity level but she has just as many posts as he does.
Rhand: Link me the best towngame you can and best scumgame you can. Recent doesn't matter. Your style hasn't changed in a while.
Before you knew too much
(Who taught ya how to move like that
Throw it back, you my old school crush)
grapefruit scum
Probably about the same thing he has done every other time you've wanted to mislynch him?
@Tom: I don't think grape is TMIing there, I feel like he's just not trusting his instincts, or kinda struggling with that
Grape: Explain 1082 for me.