KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm still on the Last/KCC train here. It makes the most sense to me.
@fulcrum: it's possible about Proph, but the thing making me think that's not the case is the orange orb. Activates other abilities is, I think, not something Proph would think of in that case.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Maybe the janitoring was part of lasts ability somehow?
That's still a question mark.
Maybe scum have an ability pool a la Planeswalkers v. Phyrexia?
What was that?
A Clan game from way back. Mafia had a pool of abilities that any of them could use (I think instead of) their role.
That would just mean that some abilities aren't attached to specific players. Like a message, for instance.
That could be it!
Don't the orange orbs do nothing, though? Like, they just act like other orbs when targetted?
That's what he says.
My point is, I feel like scum Proph making up a role just assigns orange to some other ability instead of saying it activates others.
It's just really. Specific.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KJ, KCC: I ended up giving an orb to fulcrum. Did some rereading over the Night and I don't think she busses dkings when dkings had such a strong role when she could have continued forcing through the lynch on me for most of the Day. Think if dk had that role and she was scumbuddies with dk then she plays Yesterday a whole lot differently (mainly by trying to push me as a counterwagon to dkings as opposed to joining me on him)
Quote from Asta »
@Proph: Yeah, if I was scum, I would just dig up the wagon on you from yesterday and push that. That'd be easiest, but town-me feels like it wouldn't necessarily be correct based on what DK said and what folks he pushed yesterday. He spent a LOT of effort trying to malign you and me (HE TRIED TO INSINUATE I WAS THE DAYKILLER AND STOLE GEMMA'S ROLE!!!!!!! JACKANAPE!) but he barely posted during the Rhand stuff except to try setting up a Keldeo mislynch the next day. So I think you're town based on that and I really hope you dig through em to see as much.
Alright, Asta. If you're town and I'm town, then who do you think are the mafia in the group of fulcrum/KCC/Silver? What do you think about the possibility that fulcrum and KJ could be buddies together? Why are you asking other people to put pressure on your PoE as opposed to putting pressure on them yourself?
Quote from KCC »
Okay, between that and the RB, Silver is almost certainly town. Which means Asta was actually targeted, and is also probably town.
unvote
Quote from KCC »
I'm town
Vez is town
Vaimes can be town Today
Silver almost certainly town
Therefore Asta should be town
KCC, can you explain to me the train of thought you're working through here wrt these mechanics? Have a difficult time following personally
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I'm still personally on the "lynch Asta then spend the next Day figuring out who the last scum is" camp
I know Silver claimed that Asta got visited N1, but I don't want to wade too much into the mechanical details of this game because sooner or later something starts not to make sense and then everything breaks down
Proph didn't totally invent his role, he has at minimum an ability called "Color of Spring" which makes sense as an orb generator that gives a specific color
I guess he could have a different baker ability for every season and then non-seasonals on top but I kind of think he just true claimed regardless of his alignment (he could theoretically have the message I guess)
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Fulcrum's Winter ability not omitting Mafia just means that no wolves on her team have a Winter seasonal ability, though I guess Vaimes would have to confirm whether it only hits seasonals or if it can hit any ability used in Winter (like her Spring one). So as long as we're speculating that KCC doesn't actually have any seasonals, just "unlocks" or something like her busdrive claim maybe, fulcrum could still be a wolf with either her or Killjoy?
Meeeeeeeh
Okay, yeah, I think I want KCC first, we can get her alignment, see what her role actually is, etc. and go from there
Only thing is, if we think Asta might be a wolf I think we have to lunch him now or give up our no-lunch toMorrow, because they can force a no-lunch in lylo with his extra vote
I kinda think he's town myself but we should at least talk about it
I'm mulling over the whole, Axel was supposed to target Asta to verify the bodyguard thing
And I need to check if Dkings claimed he did the bodyguard at night before Axel claimed he watched me
If he did, the message had to have come from him, somehow, walking into the watcher like that would be really silly
But if not, he could have just claimed he did it during the daytime, then Killjoy or KCC or whoever could have claimed a simple visitor for that season... The timing of the message would be weird then, though, I guess, but I probably would have brushed it off as just the message being delivered at the first time the protection could have happened. KCC had already fullclaimed then, though, so it probably would have outed her if she had claimed a visitor on top of all that... but Killjoy could have truthfully claimed he targeted Asta but with his other ability and gotten nothing
Ugh. Idk, I feel like I just talked myself in a circle.
Silver - what are your current thoughts on Asta? In your post above you said that you kind of think he is town, but I recall earlier you said that you wanted splitting Asta/fulcrum or Asta/KCC wagons
Muddled. When I said that I thought the teams were either exactly Asta/KCC or exactly Fulcrum/Killjoy but my earlier plan loses to fulcrum/KCC teams and that's kind of where I'm at right now. He was definitely targeted by "something" on N1 and I don't reaaaaally think he's faking emotion at being set up toDay but that's. Kinda thin.
Even if it isn't exactly fulcrum/KCC lunching them both in some order should hit a wolf. Asta first is... well, if he flips town, fulcrum should always be a wolf with either KCC or Killjoy, then F4 would be like, me/you/KCC/Killjoy or something and we have to pick between them?
If he's a wolf fulcrum can't be one so it's just KCC
But I think I'd rather lunch KCC -> fulcrum or vice-versa, that should always hit a wolf if not end the game, and if fulcrum is town we get town killjoy with a BPV into F4, if KCC is town we just lunch fulcrum -> Killjoy since he had to have done the N4 busdrive/redirect/whatever changed Vaimes' results
A Clan game from way back. Mafia had a pool of abilities that any of them could use (I think instead of) their role.
That would just mean that some abilities aren't attached to specific players. Like a message, for instance.
I'm tempted to just throw this idea out
In that world, my RB presumably doesn't hit those. Fulcrums abilities miss half the scum power and/or silvers ability is misleading. Like, if we're sitting here with confirmation Asta was targeted, and that player was dk, who is flipped with no indication of having that ability, it's all just kinda bs
So, scum get abilities, and town gets "abilities" that provide more misinformation than anything ever useful? I don't think I can accept that
A Clan game from way back. Mafia had a pool of abilities that any of them could use (I think instead of) their role.
That would just mean that some abilities aren't attached to specific players. Like a message, for instance.
I'm tempted to just throw this idea out
In that world, my RB presumably doesn't hit those. Fulcrums abilities miss half the scum power and/or silvers ability is misleading. Like, if we're sitting here with confirmation Asta was targeted, and that player was dk, who is flipped with no indication of having that ability, it's all just kinda bs
So, scum get abilities, and town gets "abilities" that provide more misinformation than anything ever useful? I don't think I can accept that
What specifically does your RB say again? It specifies "nightkill" right?
Talk to me about Last's role. Like, it's so bad as claimed. There's no real strategy involved in using it. And Revenge actively punishes town for lynching scum, if it does what we think and gives the lynched scum a free vote the next day.
And if you're throwing out factional abilities. Last's role is the best to have extraneous abilities, no?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
What specifically does your RB say again? It specifies "nightkill" right?
It doesn't stop factional abilities.
So, the mafia kill at minimum. I figured if there's a neutral, they might have something that dodges me. But, if scum have some communal ability pool, they almost by definition have to be factional abilities.
So, my RB would be 10 times worse than I already think it is, and couldn't hit the NK or like half the scum power on top of that
Talk to me about Last's role. Like, it's so bad as claimed. There's no real strategy involved in using it. And Revenge actively punishes town for lynching scum, if it does what we think and gives the lynched scum a free vote the next day.
Leadership and prophecy were pretty scum sided too. And even the chat is a decent scum power, if he's scum.
And if you're throwing out factional abilities. Last's role is the best to have extraneous abilities, no?
Yeah, probably. If he's scum, his role would almost have to have more to it, even before considering all the missing actions. And a message, a RB, a redirect are all things I could easily see having a dream flavor
@last, fulcrum, kcc: when did that neighborhood happen again? I was thinking about hill house and realized I had an issue with the timing of my neighborizer shot.
last: did you pick the neighbors? And when, exactly, did you use that ability? The night before?
And I'm planning on talking about your posts later. Though every time I do you call it shading, so.
KCC: if it's a town role it's literally the weakest I've ever seen.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KCC, can you explain to me the train of thought you're working through here wrt these mechanics? Have a difficult time following personally
Yeah, I'm having a difficult time following too
So, KJ had some info I hadn't been considering and made a good point on Silver. So, I tried assuming KJ was right about townSilver and seeing where that led. And I went through assuming things make some kind of sense (silvers results hinting at Asta being honest, the scum not RBing themselves N1), but that doesn't help anyway, since it points to fulcrum needing to be scum, but her role is just as unlikely on scum as Silver's
If silver is town, either scum have some magic unexplained message power they used on townAsta, or some other unexplained power they used on scumAsta, so completely unhelpful
MY ABILITIES ARE UNKNOWN TO ME, LMAO
I DID NOT KNOW IT WAS NEIGHBORIZOR, NOR DID I PICK THE TARGETS, NOR DID I EVEN KNOW IT EXISTED TILL LIKE 1-2 DAYS LATER
the only reason I even had a clue that it was my ability possibly, was because the chat was called, "Friendly Chat", which corresponds with my dream
Revenge/Leadership/Prophecy
affect both alignments, they are neither scum aligned nor town aligned
if revenge allows a dead person to vote, then we could have easily had the benefit of a town vote here
Leadership solely depends on the player that becomes the leader, its a double-edged sword overall, and if on town, it means wolves have literally no control over who dies
Prophecy is probably more like 70/30 in terms of alignment strength with it being strong for the wolves, but like meh
@last, fulcrum, kcc: when did that neighborhood happen again? I was thinking about hill house and realized I had an issue with the timing of my neighborizer shot
We got it as D4 opened, when I would expect to get Night results. It closed at the end of N4
If an ability removed text from a flip such as a janitor it would be expressly made clear.
If an ability was delayed it would not give any results or in any way resolve until the ability resolved.
Muddled. When I said that I thought the teams were either exactly Asta/KCC or exactly Fulcrum/Killjoy but my earlier plan loses to fulcrum/KCC teams and that's kind of where I'm at right now. He was definitely targeted by "something" on N1 and I don't reaaaaally think he's faking emotion at being set up toDay but that's. Kinda thin.
Even if it isn't exactly fulcrum/KCC lunching them both in some order should hit a wolf. Asta first is... well, if he flips town, fulcrum should always be a wolf with either KCC or Killjoy, then F4 would be like, me/you/KCC/Killjoy or something and we have to pick between them?
If he's a wolf fulcrum can't be one so it's just KCC
But I think I'd rather lunch KCC -> fulcrum or vice-versa, that should always hit a wolf if not end the game, and if fulcrum is town we get town killjoy with a BPV into F4, if KCC is town we just lunch fulcrum -> Killjoy since he had to have done the N4 busdrive/redirect/whatever changed Vaimes' results
We are in no way going with a plan that does not involve killing Asta. This just feels like scum silver trying to tie up the game pretty badly.
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DK claimed to get us to no lynch over killing him or KCC. He had a message ability that was removed by the janitor or something and he used it to target Asta, so Axel would see it. Dk then used the message he had to send anyway to convince Asta that he was really a bodyguard. KCC and Rhand then tried to push the lynch off onto Nacho, because the Axel lynch wasn't happening, and because they thought DK would end up looking really good the next Day with confirmation from Axel /and/ Asta, and they didn't want to be seen pushing him. The whole scumteam planned out claims early, with uses like the message ability in mind, that's why dk had bodyguard softs and KCC started the game by claiming.
Vote: KCC
Okay but if that was the plan then why would dk lie about the message? Why not roll with being a loud BG?
Muddled. When I said that I thought the teams were either exactly Asta/KCC or exactly Fulcrum/Killjoy but my earlier plan loses to fulcrum/KCC teams and that's kind of where I'm at right now. He was definitely targeted by "something" on N1 and I don't reaaaaally think he's faking emotion at being set up toDay but that's. Kinda thin.
Even if it isn't exactly fulcrum/KCC lunching them both in some order should hit a wolf. Asta first is... well, if he flips town, fulcrum should always be a wolf with either KCC or Killjoy, then F4 would be like, me/you/KCC/Killjoy or something and we have to pick between them?
If he's a wolf fulcrum can't be one so it's just KCC
But I think I'd rather lunch KCC -> fulcrum or vice-versa, that should always hit a wolf if not end the game, and if fulcrum is town we get town killjoy with a BPV into F4, if KCC is town we just lunch fulcrum -> Killjoy since he had to have done the N4 busdrive/redirect/whatever changed Vaimes' results
We are in no way going with a plan that does not involve killing Asta. This just feels like scum silver trying to tie up the game pretty badly.
Why does Asta have to be a wolf?
If you can convince me of that, I'll get on board, but 1 wolf in KCC/Killjoy is the only explanation for N4's apparent busdrive between fulcrum and lastwhisper
And if we lunch Asta and miss we don't get a chance to hit the wrong one in KCC/fulcrum if there is one (in KCC/Proph worlds or something, say)
Like, KCC -> fulcrum hits basically every team at least once, Asta -> KCC loses to fulcrum/killjoy and Asta -> fulcrum loses to KCC/Proph
But Vaimes flipping town clears fulcrum, yes? That ability is useless as scum, and this is a role madness game I think, so knowing that someone has an action isn't as informative as the alignment check.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
IIRC you claimed proph's ability after he already claimed them, you put a safe bet on Keldeo not targetting Gemma, because how could he, and then you claimed Asta was targeted by this mysterious message on day 1.
All this could easily be solver if Asta didn't receive a message and you're just covering for them.
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My Summer ability is confirmed by Proph confirming his Spring ability name, and my Winter ability is confirmed by Killjoy copying it N4 so I can't be the N4 busdriver
Me/Proph could be if you think Proph has a busdriver and I don't actually have a blue orb or something, I guess
DK claimed to get us to no lynch over killing him or KCC. He had a message ability that was removed by the janitor or something and he used it to target Asta, so Axel would see it. Dk then used the message he had to send anyway to convince Asta that he was really a bodyguard. KCC and Rhand then tried to push the lynch off onto Nacho, because the Axel lynch wasn't happening, and because they thought DK would end up looking really good the next Day with confirmation from Axel /and/ Asta, and they didn't want to be seen pushing him. The whole scumteam planned out claims early, with uses like the message ability in mind, that's why dk had bodyguard softs and KCC started the game by claiming.
Vote: KCC
Okay but if that was the plan then why would dk lie about the message? Why not roll with being a loud BG?
To make Asta look bad, maybe? Or because he didn't want anyone to think the him targeting asta was a message, not a bodyguard? I don't know man.
@Silver, my fall ability also doesn't have a no-mafia clause and I offered to trade it/let Vaimes choose which one to hand over, so for me to be scum the scumteam would have to have no fall or winter restricted abilities.
If an ability removed text from a flip such as a janitor it would be expressly made clear.
If an ability was delayed it would not give any results or in any way resolve until the ability resolved.
Ok, so Dk couldn't have had a message in his rolepm unless using it removed it or something? Like how me giving my ability to Vaimes removed it from my role pm.
And if we lunch Asta and miss we don't get a chance to hit the wrong one in KCC/fulcrum if there is one (in KCC/Proph worlds or something, say)
Like, KCC -> fulcrum hits basically every team at least once, Asta -> KCC loses to fulcrum/killjoy and Asta -> fulcrum loses to KCC/Proph
But Vaimes flipping town clears fulcrum, yes? That ability is useless as scum, and this is a role madness game I think, so knowing that someone has an action isn't as informative as the alignment check.
No, I don't think so
It confirms that any wolves on her team don't have a Winter seasonal ability, because it only hits Winter abilities according to Axel's compilation -- you/fulcrum team works because your copy isn't a Winter ability so she can't see it with hers, for example, and dkings/Rhand didn't have any Winter abilities either. Like:
Spring: Dreams of Future (passive. Learn the name of a Non-mafia who took an action)
-Learned Killjoy
-N2 - Targeted by Vaimes. Traded away this Spring ability for a Tracker ability.
Summer: none
Fall: Dream of Certainty (passive. Learn the names of two players with abilities restricted to those seasons)
-Learned Proph and Silver
-N3 - Tracked Keldeo. Keldeo did not target anyone this Night.
Winter: Dream of Naming (passive. Learn the name of a random Winter ability)
Spring ability is a psuedo-role cop for wolves
Fall ability does basically the same thing but is even stronger than the Spring one for you/fulcrum teams because it gives two non-mafia names; in her/KCC teams it still gives at least one town name since KCC claimed a fall ability
Winter ability is kinda bad regardless of her alignment, learning ability names isn't that strong it just partially confirms claims, but it always sees a town ability if none of her partners have a Winter seasonal
And if we lunch Asta and miss we don't get a chance to hit the wrong one in KCC/fulcrum if there is one (in KCC/Proph worlds or something, say)
Like, KCC -> fulcrum hits basically every team at least once, Asta -> KCC loses to fulcrum/killjoy and Asta -> fulcrum loses to KCC/Proph
But Vaimes flipping town clears fulcrum, yes? That ability is useless as scum, and this is a role madness game I think, so knowing that someone has an action isn't as informative as the alignment check.
No, I don't think so
It confirms that any wolves on her team don't have a Winter seasonal ability, because it only hits Winter abilities according to Axel's compilation -- you/fulcrum team works because your copy isn't a Winter ability so she can't see it with hers, for example, and dkings/Rhand didn't have any Winter abilities either. Like:
Spring: Dreams of Future (passive. Learn the name of a Non-mafia who took an action)
-Learned Killjoy
-N2 - Targeted by Vaimes. Traded away this Spring ability for a Tracker ability.
Summer: none
Fall: Dream of Certainty (passive. Learn the names of two players with abilities restricted to those seasons)
-Learned Proph and Silver
-N3 - Tracked Keldeo. Keldeo did not target anyone this Night.
Winter: Dream of Naming (passive. Learn the name of a random Winter ability)
Spring ability is a psuedo-role cop for wolves
Fall ability does basically the same thing but is even stronger than the Spring one for you/fulcrum teams because it gives two non-mafia names; in her/KCC teams it still gives at least one town name since KCC claimed a fall ability
Winter ability is kinda bad regardless of her alignment, learning ability names isn't that strong it just partially confirms claims, but it always sees a town ability if none of her partners have a Winter seasonal
Well, fall doesn't specifically Target non-mafia, but sure.
Wouldn't the inclusion of a mafia ability that says it sees nonmafia be a bit bastardly?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't think it's bastardy, no, because the player who gets the role knows what it's for. Set ups aren't usually designed to be gamed the way we're doing it lol. I doubt specific abilities were checked for "might mislead people trying to game the set up"; a lot of mods insert stuff like that on purpose because they want you to use behavior to win.
But one of the two players who can potentially gain it don't have the same context.
Like, if I were to copy it from her, it would have to be on a night she used it. Therefore, my known info would be that a) she has that ability and b) she used it. That is information I would receive as a result of my role. I (I think most others) would reasonably assume that she is not mafia.
I suppose I'll ask the mod to clarify. I don't feel won't here, but I might be.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I feel like I have a pretty strict idea of what "bastard modding" is compared to other people and I wouldn't feel very bad if a wolf got wrongly cleared because someone copied their ability and assumed they were town because it only returned non-wolves for results when it could also pretty clearly be used to exclude teammates to ensure relevant results
But this could all be academic, if we lunch KCC and she flips red we can talk about lunching Asta or Proph or something, fulcrum only *has* to be a wolf if she's town (because, well, you'd have to be a wolf at that point), I just don't like the way they seem to be fighting for literally any other lunch besides each other and it makes me think they're partners
Like, who do you think did the N4 busdrive/redirect that Vaimes is claiming?
Ok, so I'm gonna not setup/mod game (since that's what I seem to be doing) and evaluate on different grounds.
@Silver: Why does scum![fulcrum] not just lie about her target?
Lie about which target? Her Spring one where she got you?
Well, if KCC is town she probably did lie to clear you
But okay, if you're town why did she clear you? To pocket you, to "prove" her ability if you got lunched, etc. etc.
Like, claiming to have hit a partner with that ability is actually kind of bad (like she said) because it ties her to whoever she targets, claiming her actual results means she doesn't accidentally claim someone used an ability who didn't even have one (like me), all kinds of reason to trueclaim those results
But yeah, this is academic, if you're town then KCC is a lock wolf, so let's lunch her first and then we can talk about who the last one is
I feel like I have a pretty strict idea of what "bastard modding" is compared to other people and I wouldn't feel very bad if a wolf got wrongly cleared because someone copied their ability and assumed they were town because it only returned non-wolves for results when it could also pretty clearly be used to exclude teammates to ensure relevant results
But this could all be academic, if we lunch KCC and she flips red we can talk about lunching Asta or Proph or something, fulcrum only *has* to be a wolf if she's town (because, well, you'd have to be a wolf at that point), I just don't like the way they seem to be fighting for literally any other lunch besides each other and it makes me think they're partners
Like, who do you think did the N4 busdrive/redirect that Vaimes is claiming?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ok, so I'm gonna not setup/mod game (since that's what I seem to be doing) and evaluate on different grounds.
@Silver: Why does scum![fulcrum] not just lie about her target?
Lie about which target? Her Spring one where she got you?
Well, if KCC is town she probably did lie to clear you
But okay, if you're town why did she clear you? To pocket you, to "prove" her ability if you got lunched, etc. etc.
Like, claiming to have hit a partner with that ability is actually kind of bad (like she said) because it ties her to whoever she targets, claiming her actual results means she doesn't accidentally claim someone used an ability who didn't even have one (like me), all kinds of reason to trueclaim those results
But yeah, this is academic, if you're town then KCC is a lock wolf, so let's lunch her first and then we can talk about who the last one is
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
That would just mean that some abilities aren't attached to specific players. Like a message, for instance.
@fulcrum: it's possible about Proph, but the thing making me think that's not the case is the orange orb. Activates other abilities is, I think, not something Proph would think of in that case.
That could be it!
Don't the orange orbs do nothing, though? Like, they just act like other orbs when targetted?
My point is, I feel like scum Proph making up a role just assigns orange to some other ability instead of saying it activates others.
It's just really. Specific.
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Curse PremiumAlright, Asta. If you're town and I'm town, then who do you think are the mafia in the group of fulcrum/KCC/Silver? What do you think about the possibility that fulcrum and KJ could be buddies together? Why are you asking other people to put pressure on your PoE as opposed to putting pressure on them yourself?
KCC, can you explain to me the train of thought you're working through here wrt these mechanics? Have a difficult time following personally
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I'm still personally on the "lynch Asta then spend the next Day figuring out who the last scum is" camp
I know Silver claimed that Asta got visited N1, but I don't want to wade too much into the mechanical details of this game because sooner or later something starts not to make sense and then everything breaks down
I guess he could have a different baker ability for every season and then non-seasonals on top but I kind of think he just true claimed regardless of his alignment (he could theoretically have the message I guess)
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Fulcrum's Winter ability not omitting Mafia just means that no wolves on her team have a Winter seasonal ability, though I guess Vaimes would have to confirm whether it only hits seasonals or if it can hit any ability used in Winter (like her Spring one). So as long as we're speculating that KCC doesn't actually have any seasonals, just "unlocks" or something like her busdrive claim maybe, fulcrum could still be a wolf with either her or Killjoy?
Meeeeeeeh
Okay, yeah, I think I want KCC first, we can get her alignment, see what her role actually is, etc. and go from there
Only thing is, if we think Asta might be a wolf I think we have to lunch him now or give up our no-lunch toMorrow, because they can force a no-lunch in lylo with his extra vote
I kinda think he's town myself but we should at least talk about it
And I need to check if Dkings claimed he did the bodyguard at night before Axel claimed he watched me
If he did, the message had to have come from him, somehow, walking into the watcher like that would be really silly
But if not, he could have just claimed he did it during the daytime, then Killjoy or KCC or whoever could have claimed a simple visitor for that season... The timing of the message would be weird then, though, I guess, but I probably would have brushed it off as just the message being delivered at the first time the protection could have happened. KCC had already fullclaimed then, though, so it probably would have outed her if she had claimed a visitor on top of all that... but Killjoy could have truthfully claimed he targeted Asta but with his other ability and gotten nothing
Ugh. Idk, I feel like I just talked myself in a circle.
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Curse PremiumEven if it isn't exactly fulcrum/KCC lunching them both in some order should hit a wolf. Asta first is... well, if he flips town, fulcrum should always be a wolf with either KCC or Killjoy, then F4 would be like, me/you/KCC/Killjoy or something and we have to pick between them?
If he's a wolf fulcrum can't be one so it's just KCC
But I think I'd rather lunch KCC -> fulcrum or vice-versa, that should always hit a wolf if not end the game, and if fulcrum is town we get town killjoy with a BPV into F4, if KCC is town we just lunch fulcrum -> Killjoy since he had to have done the N4 busdrive/redirect/whatever changed Vaimes' results
At first, I was waiting to hear claimed actions, specifically Proph. After that it just didn't come up, if anyone had asked my targets, I would have.
I was thinking about claiming it when I was actively trying to be lynched, but you kinda ran with that idea first.
I'm tempted to just throw this idea out
In that world, my RB presumably doesn't hit those. Fulcrums abilities miss half the scum power and/or silvers ability is misleading. Like, if we're sitting here with confirmation Asta was targeted, and that player was dk, who is flipped with no indication of having that ability, it's all just kinda bs
So, scum get abilities, and town gets "abilities" that provide more misinformation than anything ever useful? I don't think I can accept that
Talk to me about Last's role. Like, it's so bad as claimed. There's no real strategy involved in using it. And Revenge actively punishes town for lynching scum, if it does what we think and gives the lynched scum a free vote the next day.
And if you're throwing out factional abilities. Last's role is the best to have extraneous abilities, no?
It doesn't stop factional abilities.
So, the mafia kill at minimum. I figured if there's a neutral, they might have something that dodges me. But, if scum have some communal ability pool, they almost by definition have to be factional abilities.
So, my RB would be 10 times worse than I already think it is, and couldn't hit the NK or like half the scum power on top of that
Leadership and prophecy were pretty scum sided too. And even the chat is a decent scum power, if he's scum.
But, I can easily see it as a town role too
Yeah, probably. If he's scum, his role would almost have to have more to it, even before considering all the missing actions. And a message, a RB, a redirect are all things I could easily see having a dream flavor
@last, fulcrum, kcc: when did that neighborhood happen again? I was thinking about hill house and realized I had an issue with the timing of my neighborizer shot.
last: did you pick the neighbors? And when, exactly, did you use that ability? The night before?
And I'm planning on talking about your posts later. Though every time I do you call it shading, so.
KCC: if it's a town role it's literally the weakest I've ever seen.
Yeah, I'm having a difficult time following too
So, KJ had some info I hadn't been considering and made a good point on Silver. So, I tried assuming KJ was right about townSilver and seeing where that led. And I went through assuming things make some kind of sense (silvers results hinting at Asta being honest, the scum not RBing themselves N1), but that doesn't help anyway, since it points to fulcrum needing to be scum, but her role is just as unlikely on scum as Silver's
If silver is town, either scum have some magic unexplained message power they used on townAsta, or some other unexplained power they used on scumAsta, so completely unhelpful
I DID NOT KNOW IT WAS NEIGHBORIZOR, NOR DID I PICK THE TARGETS, NOR DID I EVEN KNOW IT EXISTED TILL LIKE 1-2 DAYS LATER
the only reason I even had a clue that it was my ability possibly, was because the chat was called, "Friendly Chat", which corresponds with my dream
affect both alignments, they are neither scum aligned nor town aligned
if revenge allows a dead person to vote, then we could have easily had the benefit of a town vote here
Leadership solely depends on the player that becomes the leader, its a double-edged sword overall, and if on town, it means wolves have literally no control over who dies
Prophecy is probably more like 70/30 in terms of alignment strength with it being strong for the wolves, but like meh
then its not really town-sided at all
time for work, like usual
If an ability was delayed it would not give any results or in any way resolve until the ability resolved.
We are in no way going with a plan that does not involve killing Asta. This just feels like scum silver trying to tie up the game pretty badly.
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If you can convince me of that, I'll get on board, but 1 wolf in KCC/Killjoy is the only explanation for N4's apparent busdrive between fulcrum and lastwhisper
Like, KCC -> fulcrum hits basically every team at least once, Asta -> KCC loses to fulcrum/killjoy and Asta -> fulcrum loses to KCC/Proph
The Current Season is Winter.
With 9 Alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Silver/Asta is still a possibility for the rest of us. Your abilities are not very confirmable.
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All this could easily be solver if Asta didn't receive a message and you're just covering for them.
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Me/Proph could be if you think Proph has a busdriver and I don't actually have a blue orb or something, I guess
To make Asta look bad, maybe? Or because he didn't want anyone to think the him targeting asta was a message, not a bodyguard? I don't know man.
@Silver, my fall ability also doesn't have a no-mafia clause and I offered to trade it/let Vaimes choose which one to hand over, so for me to be scum the scumteam would have to have no fall or winter restricted abilities.
Ok, so Dk couldn't have had a message in his rolepm unless using it removed it or something? Like how me giving my ability to Vaimes removed it from my role pm.
It confirms that any wolves on her team don't have a Winter seasonal ability, because it only hits Winter abilities according to Axel's compilation -- you/fulcrum team works because your copy isn't a Winter ability so she can't see it with hers, for example, and dkings/Rhand didn't have any Winter abilities either. Like:
-Learned Killjoy
-N2 - Targeted by Vaimes. Traded away this Spring ability for a Tracker ability.
Summer: none
Fall: Dream of Certainty (passive. Learn the names of two players with abilities restricted to those seasons)
-Learned Proph and Silver
-N3 - Tracked Keldeo. Keldeo did not target anyone this Night.
Winter: Dream of Naming (passive. Learn the name of a random Winter ability)
Fall ability does basically the same thing but is even stronger than the Spring one for you/fulcrum teams because it gives two non-mafia names; in her/KCC teams it still gives at least one town name since KCC claimed a fall ability
Winter ability is kinda bad regardless of her alignment, learning ability names isn't that strong it just partially confirms claims, but it always sees a town ability if none of her partners have a Winter seasonal
Wouldn't the inclusion of a mafia ability that says it sees nonmafia be a bit bastardly?
Dig this logic, going with this POE for right now. We'll have a decent idea on fulcrum tomorrow with the Vaimes flip.
vote KCC
Like, if I were to copy it from her, it would have to be on a night she used it. Therefore, my known info would be that a) she has that ability and b) she used it. That is information I would receive as a result of my role. I (I think most others) would reasonably assume that she is not mafia.
I suppose I'll ask the mod to clarify. I don't feel won't here, but I might be.
@Silver: Why does scum!silver not just lie about her target?
that should be scum!fulcrum, obviously.
I feel like I have a pretty strict idea of what "bastard modding" is compared to other people and I wouldn't feel very bad if a wolf got wrongly cleared because someone copied their ability and assumed they were town because it only returned non-wolves for results when it could also pretty clearly be used to exclude teammates to ensure relevant results
But this could all be academic, if we lunch KCC and she flips red we can talk about lunching Asta or Proph or something, fulcrum only *has* to be a wolf if she's town (because, well, you'd have to be a wolf at that point), I just don't like the way they seem to be fighting for literally any other lunch besides each other and it makes me think they're partners
Like, who do you think did the N4 busdrive/redirect that Vaimes is claiming?
Well, if KCC is town she probably did lie to clear you
But okay, if you're town why did she clear you? To pocket you, to "prove" her ability if you got lunched, etc. etc.
Like, claiming to have hit a partner with that ability is actually kind of bad (like she said) because it ties her to whoever she targets, claiming her actual results means she doesn't accidentally claim someone used an ability who didn't even have one (like me), all kinds of reason to trueclaim those results
But yeah, this is academic, if you're town then KCC is a lock wolf, so let's lunch her first and then we can talk about who the last one is
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Deadline is in a bit more than 36 hours, I think?
vote: KCC (L-1)
Vote KCC
Are there people still pretending there's any chance I rolled scum this game?