Hey so here's another thing. I just iso'd HR and heavily believe he's Mafia.
He doesn't appear very interested in having town reads at all. His scum reads are either on Wisp or on Anak/Az and I think there's was a bit on Rhand earlier. Except for the Az read, his scum reads don't have a whole lot of progression, In general his reads don't have any evolution.
His singular focus on Wisp only gets broken when he's voting Az. He's not pushing in the right places when he does push, I just don't think he's playing the town game.
I recall hearing that there's meta about him tunneling, but that shouldn't prevent him from reexamination of his reads, ever? There's none of those revolution moments that comes from realizing something during investigation of reads.
Also he never answered about his top 3 town reads for me.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I also have been thinking. Tubba might be the more likely scum of him and Anak. I'd like to look into Anak and Tubba more but I'm noticing from the vote counts that Tubba was pretty likely the counter wagon to Az.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
"Pretty likely"? He absolutely was. In fact the only reason he wasn't was Vaimes/GJ/some handsome dude's vote shenanigans.
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but want to hear more, KJ.
Ok, so I spoke to Grapefruit to clarify this. He's confirmed that, for the purposes of the town win condition, if a hostile party is no longer in the game for whatever reason, that counts as "eliminated."
So, that being confirmed, I will agree that the Wisp situation is likely a self-correcting problem, provided we hit Witted mafia and the game is continuing tomorrow. Unvote: LastWhisper, Vote: Anak.
Here I am in the year 2021 laughing my ass off at work because apparently it took you this long to ask that??
What I mean is that it's not like there's been a set, small group of specific players preventing a wisp yeet throughout this game.
Most players have, some of the confirmed town by now, and it's not like it's possible for all the others to be SCUM*.
"Confirmed town?" Who would they be?
The dead players, obviously.
This doesn't matter now, but I don't know how to reply to the rest of this post, kinda looks to me like all you did was prove me right?
@Vaimes
I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve pushed Cuth today. He’s been scummy to me all game. I’ve pushed him on his actions not being consistent with his claimed abilities. I’ve questioned him on his targets, looked for insight into his reads. He said that I wouldn’t understand because I’m a wolf. The rest of the game largely ignores me, and is again fine with lynching me because... I’m in the PoE. You yourself are voting me, without even being able to define my scumminess.
I don’t know why my vote isn’t on Cuth, Vote Cuth.
And who are his partners? Or at least one of them? You say you spent the whole phase going after one person, okay - is anyone connected to him?
Vaimes, seriously, this question is silly.
Tubba has literally discussed in several posts that he feels Anak is scum and has even placed him in the scumteam with Cuth. Even a cursory glance at this ISO shows this, what gives?
(Although, his response on p#3900 is interesting. But I'm assuming you didn't plan for that.)
The actual relevant question here is: @Tubba what is the point of placing a vote on Cuth with a nonexistent effort to convince others to yeet him, instead of voting on a leading wagon against a player you insist you find scummy? (Anak)
Talk me through your logic, wit-buddy.
@Vaimes
I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve pushed Cuth today. He’s been scummy to me all game. I’ve pushed him on his actions not being consistent with his claimed abilities. I’ve questioned him on his targets, looked for insight into his reads. He said that I wouldn’t understand because I’m a wolf. The rest of the game largely ignores me, and is again fine with lynching me because... I’m in the PoE. You yourself are voting me, without even being able to define my scumminess.
I don’t know why my vote isn’t on Cuth, Vote Cuth.
And who are his partners? Or at least one of them? You say you spent the whole phase going after one person, okay - is anyone connected to him?
Vaimes, seriously, this question is silly.
Tubba has literally discussed in several posts that he feels Anak is scum and has even placed him in the scumteam with Cuth. Even a cursory glance at this ISO shows this, what gives?
(Although, his response on p#3900 is interesting. But I'm assuming you didn't plan for that.)
The actual relevant question here is: @Tubba what is the point of placing a vote on Cuth with a nonexistent effort to convince others to yeet him, instead of voting on a leading wagon against a player you insist you find scummy? (Anak)
Talk me through your logic, wit-buddy.
Tubba: I think Cuth is scum because his actions don’t align with his claim and he hasn’t made any strong efforts to solve anyone.
Rest of Thread: That’s nice, we’re going to kill you.
Like I don’t really care anymore. I have nothing else to say about Cuth and apparently I’m the only o e who sees it.
As far as Anak, while I think he’s scummy, there’s a possibility that he did just make mistakes. Thus, my scum team is placed in a tiered order of who I’d prefer to lynch. I’d vote Anak to avoid a mislynch, but frankly I’m not interested in continuing to tread over the same ground over and over until deadline. Nobody seemed at all interested in engaging over my Cuth read, and nothing anyone else is discussing really jumps out at me. I guess KJ’S HR read is new, and makes me rethink somethings. Has anyone claimed roleblocked?
"Pretty likely"? He absolutely was. In fact the only reason he wasn't was Vaimes/GJ/some handsome dude's vote shenanigans.
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but want to hear more, KJ.
Sorry I just woke up. I'm assuming this is about... Tubba and Anak?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
"Pretty likely"? He absolutely was. In fact the only reason he wasn't [the yeet] was Vaimes/GJ/some handsome dude's vote shenanigans.
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but want to hear more, KJ.
@Vaimes
I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve pushed Cuth today. He’s been scummy to me all game. I’ve pushed him on his actions not being consistent with his claimed abilities. I’ve questioned him on his targets, looked for insight into his reads. He said that I wouldn’t understand because I’m a wolf. The rest of the game largely ignores me, and is again fine with lynching me because... I’m in the PoE. You yourself are voting me, without even being able to define my scumminess.
I don’t know why my vote isn’t on Cuth, Vote Cuth.
And who are his partners? Or at least one of them? You say you spent the whole phase going after one person, okay - is anyone connected to him?
Vaimes, seriously, this question is silly.
Tubba has literally discussed in several posts that he feels Anak is scum and has even placed him in the scumteam with Cuth. Even a cursory glance at this ISO shows this, what gives?
(Although, his response on p#3900 is interesting. But I'm assuming you didn't plan for that.)
The actual relevant question here is: @Tubba what is the point of placing a vote on Cuth with a nonexistent effort to convince others to yeet him, instead of voting on a leading wagon against a player you insist you find scummy? (Anak)
Talk me through your logic, wit-buddy.
Tubba: I think Cuth is scum because his actions don’t align with his claim and he hasn’t made any strong efforts to solve anyone.
Rest of Thread: That’s nice, we’re going to kill you.
Like I don’t really care anymore. I have nothing else to say about Cuth and apparently I’m the only o e who sees it.
As far as Anak, while I think he’s scummy, there’s a possibility that he did just make mistakes. Thus, my scum team is placed in a tiered order of who I’d prefer to lynch. I’d vote Anak to avoid a mislynch, but frankly I’m not interested in continuing to tread over the same ground over and over until deadline. Nobody seemed at all interested in engaging over my Cuth read, and nothing anyone else is discussing really jumps out at me. I guess KJ’S HR read is new, and makes me rethink somethings. Has anyone claimed roleblocked?
In fairness, I was talking about your most recent post, with the vote. Re-starting a wagon with no seeming effort to convince others to follow you is pretty pointless regardless of what your past actions were.
Also, can you chill? You have one actual vote on you. This is an overshot.
What makes Anak just making mistakes a realistic possibility?
Aside from Cuth, no one's claimed RB'd.
Honestly, ngl, the fact that all it would have taken for HR to finally get off the Wisp kick was to ask Grape, followed by the fact that it took him till the latter half of D4 to finally do so is indeed a big oof, hilarity aside.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
The day we no lynched we were trying to lynch Tubba really hard. We failed due to voting shenanigans. Then the day after we were all talking about Az/Tubba dual lynches but somehow Tubba only got 4 votes.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think trying to read into it, when the PoE is mostly people who barely come around, vote or change votes, it's probably a bad idea to use that to say if old trains were hits or not
Its way more likely that town has just been driving the nail into their own foot
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think trying to read into it, when the PoE is mostly people who barely come around, vote or change votes, it's probably a bad idea to use that to say if old trains were hits or not
Its way more likely that town has just been driving the nail into their own foot
Maybe.
Do you need to yeet only original Witteds or are secondhand Witteds fine?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I think trying to read into it, when the PoE is mostly people who barely come around, vote or change votes, it's probably a bad idea to use that to say if old trains were hits or not
Its way more likely that town has just been driving the nail into their own foot
Maybe.
Do you need to yeet only original Witteds or are secondhand Witteds fine?
anyone that is currently witted, be it originals or new ones
I'm not sure why Bessie thinks she caught Cuth with something or needs coaching on the possible 4 mafia thing. We've already discussed possibilities, and considering this site uses three mafia members for a 12 person game, having four with a neutral seems a reasonable assumption to make. I need to shore up my read on Cuth, but don't really think that's a gotcha moment.
The setup spec is not the reason at all. I am suspicious of Cuth because he is voting for me and he refuses to explain the reason.
[pre post edit: see below refer to Cuthalion’s post #3861]
Bessie - Yes, I've been missing posts here and there; I'm not sure why sometimes. It's very weird. From your reads list - Do you still suspect Vaimes? I can't tell if that was a prior suspicion or still a suspicion. Is it basically cuth/anak maybe vaimes maybe bur that you're looking at?
In my post I am suspicious of why Vaimes is trying to force a town read of Cuthalion.
Because one nobody here outside highroller thinks I am mafia, and you are not going to see wolves get low balled when you have a neutral that can possibly kill them, and 5 would mean this game is already over
bessie trying to roast me over the coals for verbalizing the assumption that there are four wolves, which i think is pretty obvious at this point short of some really unusual game design choices
Really? You guys aren’t very creative.
Explain?
There are so many possibilities for the setup. My home site we loved setup spec and spent a lot of time on it. The site I have been playing on considers setup spec active lurking. Some possible setups for an 18 player game:
14 town, 4 mafia
13 town, 5 mafia
13 town, 4 mafia, 1 independent
12 town, 4 mafia, 1 indie1, 1 indie2
13 town, 3 mafia1, 2 mafia2
12 town, 3 mafia1, 3 mafia2
12 town, 3 mafia1, 2 mafia2, 1 indie
12 town, 2 mafia1, 2 mafia2, 2 mafia3
12 town, 2 mafia1, 2 mafia2, 1 indie1, 1 indie2
13 town, 4 mafia, 1 cult
Etc.
re: HighRoller: Do you understand his lack of non-wisp content?
Can you talk more about what you like about Killjoy an I's posting style? You described us in identical terms and I want to hear...more.
I don’t usually put together teams, at least not until there is at least one flip. I played a game recently where I was town and eliminated D2, and the entirety of D2 was spent working out teams that included me. I believe that was what lost that game for town (not the misyeet, but the waste of D2 by working out teams). I have players of whom I’m suspicious, but I am suspicious of them independently of each other. On D3 I did think there was a possibility of an Anak and Azrael team. But I also posted my suspicious of them independently.
Re Highroller: I’m not sure I understand what your question is. I understand Highroller’s content, I can follow his reasoning in his arguments for eliminating Wisp. He has posted a small amount of non-Wisp content but has been tunneling on Wisp. I understand if he is having trouble focusing on anything outside his tunnel, as I tend to be a tunneler myself.
Re posting styles. I described your and Killkoy’s posting styles in identical terms because of your style not necessarily your content. I find both of you make posts that are easy for me to follow and understand. You quote relevant posts and ask questions related to what you quoted, I don’t need to search through the thread and try to figure out what you are talking about (and I like that you spoiler sections that aren’t directly relevant to your current post but are useful for background, some post are long nestled quotes and it takes time to sort through them and figure out the relevant parts when there is no underling or bold to indicate what I should be looking at). When you make a post I can follow your thought progression.
I could maybe vote Sloth because I don’t think he really believes what Anak has done is scum-indicative, but I’ve liked him otherwise.
I keep flipping on Cuth and bessie. I liked bessie pointing out that he could be manipulating me into feeding him reasons to scumread her.
At this point I’m even considering rereading Tammy. When nothing makes sense it’s usually because there’s a big misclear, but I don’t think widening their POE is what we need right now.
in case you seriously think that line of reasoning is at all solid, here's what's going on big picture: given my spot in the game and who's been pushing whom, i feel like i have a finger on the pulse of a pretty small poe, and given the size even if i'm wrong on one person i don't think i'm wrong on all the people i see doing things like this
i have literally no reason to prompt you for reasons to dunk on bessie, you're perfectly aware of most of them yourself (i think there are not that many red flags as such but a lot of general direction/narrative context clues) and it's not like me not doing work so that i can have you do whatever and just vaguely hint is at all my style or would be that effective here
the thing i was specifically being cryptic about on sunday was how bessie/sloth/tubba have all responded to my suspicion, which I've pretty clearly established as being based on a more holistic perception of the game and votes and such, and been like "dude this is nothing you have nothing there are no REASONS" and like been super defensive and all "zomg how do you know it's four wolves" "lol this is ridiculous" instead of just ignoring me or actually try to argue that i'm a wolf for literally anything other than, well, not explaining my reasoning in depth to them personally upon demand
me not answering their questions is not because i can't justify them if i put the work in, it's because that grouping contains at the very least two wolves unless i'm super wrong on at least one of you/kj/tammy, and i'd rather spend time interacting with y'all and pointing you towards the things i see (i haven't done a fantastic job of this but sue me) than argue with wolves about pointless nothings, because obviously they're not going to agree that basically all of them have ingenuine and constructed progressions on basically all of their reads and have done little other than push villagers (and continue to do so in what could genuinely be mylo, and i pointed this out first), and have absolutely garbage explanations for why they're all pushing me/anak specifically over ANY of each other when there are literally four wolves and those people have been in the poe and not particularly villagery at all all game
literally the majority of my reasoning for having the reads i do, and i can promise this would not change
I am not following your post. I have asked you repeatedly to explain your reason for voting for me, and to give a reason why you think I am scum. And here all you do is point out that you were deliberately being cryptic, and you still don’t explain the reason you gave at start of day. Now you say that I have “garbage” explanation for pushing you, which I don’t think is true at all.
@Bessie on top of the other questions I left for you, can you also answer why you're voting Wisp and if you're planning to move it?
I was voting for Wisp because he is non-town. My strongest scum read is Cuthalion. I’ve presented my case and he still can’t give an explanation of his reason for voting for me at the start of D4 so I will move my vote there.
And the fact that Anak is/has been the de-facto wagon is Worrisome, to say the least.
why does this matter, if you don't mind me asking? I can see myself executing Cuth here, and targeting Anak (but really I don't wanna for win-con reasons)
like he has pretty wiggled out of giving his read on Bessie for a couple days now, and he seems to think he has been super clear with his thoughts, when he really hasn't
I have no idea how to read Tubba's reactions, because they seem unprecedented, one vote and being in the PoE doesn't warrant that, and Cuth is in the PoE for almost everyone, it is not, Cuth can't be a wolf, it's "We want to execute Anak more"
bessie: can you give a couple post numbers where Vaimes is doing that?
Also is the reason you're suspicious of it because you're scum reading cuth or is there something in the way that Vaimes is doing it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I keep being paranoid that Wisp is super deep wolfing but I think he claimed somewhere that there are 5 OG Witted and he claimed that early. I doubt that info would likely be given to Mafia if they asked for it. Would it?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I don't expect him to be a dazzler. I expect him to have an attempt to solve the game, or at least have an iota of firmness on any of his reads. Like, I obviously have a problem with reactive styles because on other sites, you'd be strung up without a 2nd thought. I could get over those biases of mine if he was reactive, but showing conviction or at least giving me a feel like he was trying to figure people out. I get neither of those things from him. He lacks any sort of empathy to understand why he is being wolf read. I at least understand I get wolf read because I get under people's skin (no one will admit that, but that's what mafia has been here for a long time)
Like, since you seem to have such a strong conviction of his town style, is his wolf play such a night/day effort? I know Silver answered this, but not well enough and I wasn't going to push someone to self meta themselves too hard for obvious reasons. Because otherwise, it's just another variation of the LHF argument and the problem with that argument is that LHF can also be wolves.
Like I said, it's whatever. I just don't think behaviorally, Silver has been town. The lack of concern from silver for arguably his towniest read being the lead wagon with very little time before deadline is really concerning to me if silver is town. And I know he is capable of concern, stronger sounding posts because that's how he defended himself. Even if that concern was to hard shove az, and ignore the Cuth wagon, I would find infinitely better than his last couple of posts.
not dealing with that today though. I am willing to guess Tubba gets cfd'd, which I am perfectly fine with.
Well what are we waiting for? The popularity contest that is MTGS is pretty well self resolving. Could you at least mention what you liked about me earlier and what has changed? I’d also like for you to elaborate on ONE townie thing Cuth has done. Not some clear because he gained vit from silver. And are you even townreading Silver? It doesn’t seem like it, which kinda makes your whole premise that Cuth is fine broken. Like, I don’t think you’re scum coming after me, just lazy. I feel like everybody pushing me is just being lazy honestly. The only argument I see is that I’m not doing much to move the game. But that’s fine for KJ, Vaimes, Bur, Cuth, Iso (prior to Anak), Tammy, etc. Or that I policy voted CC and didn’t care about her alignment? I didn’t, I wouldn’t, and I’ve explained it as much as I wanted to. The only person to make any case was Az, which boils down to the most disingenuous interpretation of my actions. So that’s a thing I guess. Sloth has wanted me dead for most of the game and never said why, Last just doesn’t care because as long as it’s not them dying why would they? Like if you’re gonna bury me put your ******* big boy pants on and do it, but at least have something you can stand on tomorrow. This whole limp wristed laissez-faire “I’d be fine if we ended up there” is just such a cop out and so easy for scum to pile onto. So drag us there, if you believe it.
Ok so, this feels a bit like a town Tubba post. It's full of righteous indignation. And a kind of "nobody's trying to read me" that feels like it comes from a town place.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Also making a note: if I'm won't about Tubba being town, them I'm also very likely wrong about HR being scum. Tubba at one point calls for Wisp to shoot HR.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
...dude your role sucks, especially compared to everything else.
Right, I'm off, and I promise to actually try to hunt next time I post instead of just exploding at everything that moves.
Question for when I return (Aside from what I've already asked): Who's NOT witted?
Wisp
Bessie
Boom
Cuth...?
Bur, I think?
Speaking of witted: I have severe doubts tubba is scum, so talk to me on why you think he is - there's a chance I've got conf bias here.
Come back with an actual PoE and we'll talk about Tubba.
My only read there is "has made no serious effort to lift self out of PoE, despite knowing he perpetually resides there otherwise."
I’d like to calmly and cordially, with the utmost respect and friendliness, invite you to kiss the darkest part of my ass. I’ve made several posts today regarding Anak/Az, have questioned Wisp about their interpretations of Anak/Az and HR/Cuth, and have questioned Cuth regarding his role and his play decisions up to this point. With only Wisp deigning to respond to me, and people seemingly content to just kill whomever, I’m not exactly sure what you’re looking for me to do to “make a serious effort to pull myself out of the POE.” My problems with Cuth, whole is role makes sense to exist in this game, he has done nothing with it, nor showed any urgency to charge it up so he could use it. Coupled with his evasion of my inquiries along those lines and his continued refusal to move the game ANYWHERE, makes it hard to see the Towniness.
Anak doesn’t look good to me, I can’t think of a good reason Az wouldn’t have outed Anak if Anak’s role is what he claimed it to be. Especially considering he made a point to note that Anak would start taking heat once he flipped. My guess is that Anak claimed Vig/Doc/something powerful that was best kept secret.
Wisp is getting increasingly frustrated and I imagine seeing they were still in the game after thinking they would be out with a win is heavily contributing to that. That’s why I’ve tried to engage without being confrontational, to get them thinking about the possibilities of what’s going on. If you assume HR is truthful, that’s fine but it should have no bearing on whether or not you think Cuth is. The roles as claimed and revealed via flip show HR’s ability protecting redirects etc, from townfirmed flip Rhand, so that’s another factor to consider. Also, you can’t simply assume Az is dumb or trolling and clear Anak. There’s more beneath the surface there.
My PoE is Cuth/Anak/???/???, I don’t think Sloth or Vaimes is ***, I feel I would’ve been yeeted D2 otherwise. I’m not sure how to interpret Bur’s role, it naturally feels townie? Tammy still feels obvTown and the uncountered Doc claim is pretty substantial, HR has been too bombastic in their approach to things they don’t like or agree with, where I think scum would be more conciliatory? But their role seems to counter a townfirmed Jailkeeper? Obviously there could be fake scum claims, but I don’t recall anyone claiming to be role blocked? Mechanics aside, I think HR is town. Bessie is a possible fit as scum, they just feel like they’ve been on the fringes of the game after making a big splash coming in hard at Tammy. Boom has been much better than Chad, judging them for their posts, I see someone thinking about solving this game. I think some of the plans they’ve brought forward are silly, but I can see where their thoughts come from at least, even if I don’t agree with them. KJ is starting to show up and I’ve liked that they’re pushing down their own paths. That’s indicative of KJasColumbo that equals Town. So I guess, Cuth/Anak/?Bessie?/?HR?Bur?
Hers another one. Tubba ain't taking none of Vaimes BS and I like it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
This might have already been brought up so sorry if this is repetition, but while I was trying, and failing, to fall asleep tonight, I remembered that near eod yesterday, vaimes said something along the lines of “dont touch bur”. I remember thinking that the other bit thief had claimed to vaimes and that’s who vaimes was talking to.
If there was any reasonable way to assume that was cuth vaimes was talking to then the roleblocked might be real and they might have been protecting bur?
I don’t want to assume too much about the existence of the roleblocker, but I did check if we’d get our bit refunded if roleblocked and as long as I understand the response properly we do.
Also, I'm somewhat angry that my ability is a strictly worse version of CC's.
Okay guys, I found this while going through the early days of this game.
CC had The Wit and ability to pay 4 vitality to reveal his alignment to someone his has Wit-connection with.
What Anak said about his ability AND what Iso hinted here don't really seem to clash and I have hard time seeing that this was done planned thing by Iso (leaving a note to his replacement what to claim), so yeah, I'm pretty sure Anak is town.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
@Tammy: Vaimes did say to me that Cuth skilled him.
He didn't say much about the vig except there's one (and said this in case the vig hadn't claimed to me yet).
Also, while I remember: sorry Vaimes for lying to you in our chat. Tammy had claimed to me at the point you asked me about of anyone had claimed to me.
No one else claimed to me though.
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Ok, so I spoke to Grapefruit to clarify this. He's confirmed that, for the purposes of the town win condition, if a hostile party is no longer in the game for whatever reason, that counts as "eliminated."
So, that being confirmed, I will agree that the Wisp situation is likely a self-correcting problem, provided we hit Witted mafia and the game is continuing tomorrow. Unvote: LastWhisper, Vote: Anak.
Here I am in the year 2021 laughing my ass off at work because apparently it took you this long to ask that??
Honest to God, I can't make a better case for HR to be scum than this. This entire time he was operating off an assumption, then decided to confirm it four days into the game? Like why? What made him do that now?
What HR needed was an excuse to vote me, because he wants to push through my yeet so they win. Also I'm basically the only one calling HR scum at the moment, so he's also trying to head that off at the same time.
Vote: HR
Here's another fun question, does anyone know what HR thinks about players not named Snake or Wisp? Probably not much, and then ask yourself is that normal for town at this point in the game?
@Wisp Yeah I guess my reads list is a little bit shallow but quite frankly without a scum flip it's hard to get super solid scum reads. Interaction analysis between scummates is one of the best ways to find scum, and we haven't had the chance to do that yet.
@KJ I agree that Tubba and HR are probably not scum together, is that what you meant by your last post about them?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Vaimes, are we reading the same game? Despite his current situation, there's been resistance and alternatives to an Anak yeet that have been pushed forward all freaking Day, to the point I have noticed, and you know how little I give a ***** about other people.
In what world do you see this as the yeet just being "de factor" i.e. "people just allowing it to happen" / "generally accepted" ///// "Cool with scum?"
I'm serious, you've been saying a lot of bs toDay specially, but this is the ghost with the most. Explain yourself.
Also, I'm somewhat angry that my ability is a strictly worse version of CC's.
Okay guys, I found this while going through the early days of this game.
CC had The Wit and ability to pay 4 vitality to reveal his alignment to someone his has Wit-connection with.
What Anak said about his ability AND what Iso hinted here don't really seem to clash and I have hard time seeing that this was done planned thing by Iso (leaving a note to his replacement what to claim), so yeah, I'm pretty sure Anak is town.
Uh. No?
If anything this clashes more.
How is an ability that lets you indefinitely charge up someone else's vit "a strictly worse version of CC's"? If anything, handing out Vit is preferrable - and beyond the Wit, the two abilities aren't comparable (one is an IC-type, Bur).
All this really confirms is that, yes, both CC and Iso>Anak have the Wit, which no one is contesting.
I keep being paranoid that Wisp is super deep wolfing but I think he claimed somewhere that there are 5 OG Witted and he claimed that early. I doubt that info would likely be given to Mafia if they asked for it. Would it?
honestly the biggest thing here is if you've seen anything in his play that would come from scum!Wisp, show me.
If there was any reasonable way to assume that was cuth vaimes was talking to then the roleblocked might be real and they might have been protecting bur?
I don’t want to assume too much about the existence of the roleblocker, but I did check if we’d get our bit refunded if roleblocked and as long as I understand the response properly we do.
So you're thinking the RB, if they exist, can only be Vaimes (maybe Bur)?
I don't think Vaimes mentions Cuth at all in any of his hints, nor does he actually acknowledge the existence of a vig (beyond his 'imma shoot this guy' comments).
Also, you're doing fine. I'm glad you didn't replace out. The content you're giving despite your situation is as solid as the rest of us honestly.
You're coming on the second week right? That usually means you're almost out of the woods! Good luck!
I mean, as mentioned before, it IS kind of undeniably a big oof.
Anak actually raises a good point in saying that it's a good way to explain jumping onto his wagon. (Does that make Anak not scum? Nope.)
Like, as somoene who HR spent nearly 4 day on top of, if the solution was that easy, aren't you at least a bit curious as to why it happened now, in the year of our lord Day 4?
He doesn't appear very interested in having town reads at all. His scum reads are either on Wisp or on Anak/Az and I think there's was a bit on Rhand earlier. Except for the Az read, his scum reads don't have a whole lot of progression, In general his reads don't have any evolution.
His singular focus on Wisp only gets broken when he's voting Az. He's not pushing in the right places when he does push, I just don't think he's playing the town game.
I recall hearing that there's meta about him tunneling, but that shouldn't prevent him from reexamination of his reads, ever? There's none of those revolution moments that comes from realizing something during investigation of reads.
Also he never answered about his top 3 town reads for me.
Unvote while I think more
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but want to hear more, KJ.
This doesn't matter now, but I don't know how to reply to the rest of this post, kinda looks to me like all you did was prove me right?
Tubba has literally discussed in several posts that he feels Anak is scum and has even placed him in the scumteam with Cuth. Even a cursory glance at this ISO shows this, what gives?
(Although, his response on p#3900 is interesting. But I'm assuming you didn't plan for that.)
The actual relevant question here is: @Tubba what is the point of placing a vote on Cuth with a nonexistent effort to convince others to yeet him, instead of voting on a leading wagon against a player you insist you find scummy? (Anak)
Talk me through your logic, wit-buddy.
Anak (3): Sloth, Wisp, HR,
Wisp (1): Bessie,
Tubba (1): Vaimes,
Bessie (1): Cuth,
Cuth (1): Tubba,
Not Voting (5): Anak, Bur, BoomFrog, Tammy, KJ,
With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to reach majority.
Jesus that vote spread...
Tubba: I think Cuth is scum because his actions don’t align with his claim and he hasn’t made any strong efforts to solve anyone.
Rest of Thread: That’s nice, we’re going to kill you.
Like I don’t really care anymore. I have nothing else to say about Cuth and apparently I’m the only o e who sees it.
As far as Anak, while I think he’s scummy, there’s a possibility that he did just make mistakes. Thus, my scum team is placed in a tiered order of who I’d prefer to lynch. I’d vote Anak to avoid a mislynch, but frankly I’m not interested in continuing to tread over the same ground over and over until deadline. Nobody seemed at all interested in engaging over my Cuth read, and nothing anyone else is discussing really jumps out at me. I guess KJ’S HR read is new, and makes me rethink somethings. Has anyone claimed roleblocked?
Also, can you chill? You have one actual vote on you. This is an overshot.
What makes Anak just making mistakes a realistic possibility?
Aside from Cuth, no one's claimed RB'd.
Honestly, ngl, the fact that all it would have taken for HR to finally get off the Wisp kick was to ask Grape, followed by the fact that it took him till the latter half of D4 to finally do so is indeed a big oof, hilarity aside.
The day we no lynched we were trying to lynch Tubba really hard. We failed due to voting shenanigans. Then the day after we were all talking about Az/Tubba dual lynches but somehow Tubba only got 4 votes.
Its way more likely that town has just been driving the nail into their own foot
Tubba (6): Az, GJ, Anak, KJ, BoomFrog, Silver
Az (6): Bur, HR, Bessie, Tubba, Wisp, Sloth
BoomFrog (2): Cuth, GJ
Anak (1): Tammy
Not Voting (2): Cantrip, Vaimes
With 16 alive it takes 9 to condemn.
Vote Count Day 2 Final
Tubba (8): Az, GJ, Anak, KJ, Silver, BoomFrog, Wisp, Tammy
Az (5): Bur, HR, Bessie, Tubba, Sloth
BoomFrog (1): Cuth
Silver (1): GJ
Not Voting (2): Cantrip, Vaimes
Do you need to yeet only original Witteds or are secondhand Witteds fine?
friendly reminder, and that is a little less than 48 hours from this post
[pre post edit: see below refer to Cuthalion’s post #3861]
In my post I am suspicious of why Vaimes is trying to force a town read of Cuthalion.
There are so many possibilities for the setup. My home site we loved setup spec and spent a lot of time on it. The site I have been playing on considers setup spec active lurking. Some possible setups for an 18 player game:
14 town, 4 mafia
13 town, 5 mafia
13 town, 4 mafia, 1 independent
12 town, 4 mafia, 1 indie1, 1 indie2
13 town, 3 mafia1, 2 mafia2
12 town, 3 mafia1, 3 mafia2
12 town, 3 mafia1, 2 mafia2, 1 indie
12 town, 2 mafia1, 2 mafia2, 2 mafia3
12 town, 2 mafia1, 2 mafia2, 1 indie1, 1 indie2
13 town, 4 mafia, 1 cult
Etc.
I don’t usually put together teams, at least not until there is at least one flip. I played a game recently where I was town and eliminated D2, and the entirety of D2 was spent working out teams that included me. I believe that was what lost that game for town (not the misyeet, but the waste of D2 by working out teams). I have players of whom I’m suspicious, but I am suspicious of them independently of each other. On D3 I did think there was a possibility of an Anak and Azrael team. But I also posted my suspicious of them independently.
Re Highroller: I’m not sure I understand what your question is. I understand Highroller’s content, I can follow his reasoning in his arguments for eliminating Wisp. He has posted a small amount of non-Wisp content but has been tunneling on Wisp. I understand if he is having trouble focusing on anything outside his tunnel, as I tend to be a tunneler myself.
Re posting styles. I described your and Killkoy’s posting styles in identical terms because of your style not necessarily your content. I find both of you make posts that are easy for me to follow and understand. You quote relevant posts and ask questions related to what you quoted, I don’t need to search through the thread and try to figure out what you are talking about (and I like that you spoiler sections that aren’t directly relevant to your current post but are useful for background, some post are long nestled quotes and it takes time to sort through them and figure out the relevant parts when there is no underling or bold to indicate what I should be looking at). When you make a post I can follow your thought progression.
Can you point me to the post to which you are referring?
I am not following your post. I have asked you repeatedly to explain your reason for voting for me, and to give a reason why you think I am scum. And here all you do is point out that you were deliberately being cryptic, and you still don’t explain the reason you gave at start of day. Now you say that I have “garbage” explanation for pushing you, which I don’t think is true at all.
I was voting for Wisp because he is non-town. My strongest scum read is Cuthalion. I’ve presented my case and he still can’t give an explanation of his reason for voting for me at the start of D4 so I will move my vote there.
Unvote
Vote: Cuthalion
like he has pretty wiggled out of giving his read on Bessie for a couple days now, and he seems to think he has been super clear with his thoughts, when he really hasn't
I have no idea how to read Tubba's reactions, because they seem unprecedented, one vote and being in the PoE doesn't warrant that, and Cuth is in the PoE for almost everyone, it is not, Cuth can't be a wolf, it's "We want to execute Anak more"
Also is the reason you're suspicious of it because you're scum reading cuth or is there something in the way that Vaimes is doing it?
more yesterday did you tell bur or anyone that cuth skilled you?
also all I’m sorry about today. I should have replaced out last week when we got the news but I thought I’d be able to hold it together.
If there was any reasonable way to assume that was cuth vaimes was talking to then the roleblocked might be real and they might have been protecting bur?
I don’t want to assume too much about the existence of the roleblocker, but I did check if we’d get our bit refunded if roleblocked and as long as I understand the response properly we do.
Okay guys, I found this while going through the early days of this game.
CC had The Wit and ability to pay 4 vitality to reveal his alignment to someone his has Wit-connection with.
What Anak said about his ability AND what Iso hinted here don't really seem to clash and I have hard time seeing that this was done planned thing by Iso (leaving a note to his replacement what to claim), so yeah, I'm pretty sure Anak is town.
He didn't say much about the vig except there's one (and said this in case the vig hadn't claimed to me yet).
Also, while I remember: sorry Vaimes for lying to you in our chat. Tammy had claimed to me at the point you asked me about of anyone had claimed to me.
No one else claimed to me though.
Honest to God, I can't make a better case for HR to be scum than this. This entire time he was operating off an assumption, then decided to confirm it four days into the game? Like why? What made him do that now?
What HR needed was an excuse to vote me, because he wants to push through my yeet so they win. Also I'm basically the only one calling HR scum at the moment, so he's also trying to head that off at the same time.
Vote: HR
Here's another fun question, does anyone know what HR thinks about players not named Snake or Wisp? Probably not much, and then ask yourself is that normal for town at this point in the game?
@Wisp Yeah I guess my reads list is a little bit shallow but quite frankly without a scum flip it's hard to get super solid scum reads. Interaction analysis between scummates is one of the best ways to find scum, and we haven't had the chance to do that yet.
@KJ I agree that Tubba and HR are probably not scum together, is that what you meant by your last post about them?
In what world do you see this as the yeet just being "de factor" i.e. "people just allowing it to happen" / "generally accepted" ///// "Cool with scum?"
I'm serious, you've been saying a lot of bs toDay specially, but this is the ghost with the most. Explain yourself.
If anything this clashes more.
How is an ability that lets you indefinitely charge up someone else's vit "a strictly worse version of CC's"? If anything, handing out Vit is preferrable - and beyond the Wit, the two abilities aren't comparable (one is an IC-type, Bur).
All this really confirms is that, yes, both CC and Iso>Anak have the Wit, which no one is contesting.
I don't think Vaimes mentions Cuth at all in any of his hints, nor does he actually acknowledge the existence of a vig (beyond his 'imma shoot this guy' comments).
Also, you're doing fine. I'm glad you didn't replace out. The content you're giving despite your situation is as solid as the rest of us honestly.
You're coming on the second week right? That usually means you're almost out of the woods! Good luck!
Getting excited about this prospect lol.
Anak actually raises a good point in saying that it's a good way to explain jumping onto his wagon. (Does that make Anak not scum? Nope.)
Like, as somoene who HR spent nearly 4 day on top of, if the solution was that easy, aren't you at least a bit curious as to why it happened now, in the year of our lord Day 4?
SLOTH!!!!
Anak (3): Sloth, Wisp, HR,
Tubba (2): Vaimes, Cuth,
Cuth (2): Tubba, Bessie,
HR (1): Anak,
Not Voting (4): Bur, BoomFrog, Tammy, KJ,
With 12 alive it takes 7 votes to reach majority.
Definite de-factoness going on here, Vaimes.
Hey everyone, make sure to tell chandler he looks dashing, he's self-conscious about his cone.