We know there are products that are bad, useless or boring. But they still are sold. People still pay for bad things: Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey books. Transformers or Clash of the Titans movies. Reggaeton or narcocorridos music. Call of Duty or Madden games.
Why do these things become famous and a lot of people pay for them?
And then comes the next question: why does exist people that dislike them?
I recommend looking into psychology and marketing, Edward Bernays (Freud's nephew) would be a good start. To sum it up, the marketing techniques have been refined to a science. The crap products are sold by bypassing the critical areas of the mind and directly communicating with our base/primal instincts, subconscious, and by pushing the buttons of our evolutionary circuitry. Here is a list of a couple techniques I (somewhat) know of name a few
. The "us vs them" mentality, you can see the basic principles in a lot of sports stadiums, political campaigns, and even everyday life if you're keen on it. A widely used tactic and Call of Duty is a perfect example. Here are a couple links
Another way of looking at it is that the products themselves are no longer being sold, it's the emotional/psychological stroking that's being sold. If it seems far-fetched, ask yourself why these companies spend millions of dollars annually on psychological research and hiring professional psychologists. People in general are also dumb, I respect that you're not afraid to start a thread to ask this kind of question in the first place.
Other related materials
The Corporation: A great documentary
Atlas Shrugged: This one's a beast, a heavy read and highly misunderstood by its critics and sometimes even its followers
Social Blueprints: Conceptual Foundations of Sociology
The Game, by Neil Strauss: Sheds light on the "pick up artist community" and how social engineers are able to use their knowledge of psychology, evolution, and other forms of discourse in order to get laid.
Derren Brown: A fantastic mentalist, just youtube this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nVw09ujMfs
and other books on hypnosis or even NLP: Milton Erickson, Bandler, and Grinder are the most well-known
Planned Obsolescence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
A lot of it has to do brand recognition and purchase habits. Playing with their friends is also an important factor. If all of someone's buddies are getting the next Call of Duty, he/she will too. These factors are why it was almost impossible for MMORPG games to do well when WoW was in its prime. People might not like these games because, if they are released on an annual basis, there is really only so much new content you can add, so people see it as the same game every year (Eg. Madden.) People might have not liked WoW because it had a chilling effect on the MMORPG market and didn't allow smaller games a chance to grow.
People still pay for bad things: Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey books. Transformers or Clash of the Titans movies.
Reggaeton or narcocorridos music. Call of Duty or Madden games.
Why do these things become famous and a lot of people pay for them?
Maybe they're just crap in your eyes and not to the ones that buy them?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Maybe they're just crap in your eyes and not to the ones that buy them?
I understand what you say. But then comes the question of what's exactly the point of having critics, reviewers and Grammy (or Raspberry) awards. Does "the best" means anything when it comes to solely personal opinion?
That's why I don't want to discuss that topic. Is too ambigous. For this question, we would have to agree that there actually things that are better than others.
For this question, we would have to agree that there actually things that are better than others.
There are certainly things out there that are better than others but all of your examples are based on personal opinion and are therefore subjective.
As for critics and reviewers, I think a lot of people are lazy and they want someone else to tell them if something is good or not rather than find out for themselves.
IMO award shows are all about stroking already over inflated egos and are mostly meaningless. But that's just my opinion.
There are certainly things out there that are better than others but all of your examples are based on personal opinion and are therefore subjective.
As for critics and reviewers, I think a lot of people are lazy and they want someone else to tell them if something is good or not rather than find out for themselves.
IMO award shows are all about stroking already over inflated egos and are mostly meaningless. But that's just my opinion.
I agree with you, most of the award shows are just people stroking each other, award shows like Oscars, Emmys and even Grammys are just bullcrap nowadays.
You are right about being opinions and tastes being subjective, but there are ratings for a well technical reason.
There is actually GOOD music and BAD music even if its not your taste, same in films/books/videogames, etc etc etc.
We cannot say "Well... Superman 64 wasnt a bad videogame, its just you dont like it" it was actually a poorly developed videogame.
I would say that marketing has definitely been stepping up their game in the last couple of years. My wife and I have definitely noticed this with food and movies lately. They pretty much buff themselves up in commercials and advertising. Examples include Five Guys burgers... they really don't taste better than your top tier fast food chain... yet... Also most movies that have come out lately, the damn preview sounds like a super desperate resume looking for work after being laid off for a long time.
Maybe they're just crap in your eyes and not to the ones that buy them?
I respectfully disagree with you. There is a spectrum of "good and bad" out there and you are right in asserting that personal opinion plays a huge role in determining what's a good product and what's bad. There are a lot of musicians out there that I don't personally enjoy but I still have a lot of respect for them, the same principle applies to every form of entertainment and productivity.
For instance, I don't personally enjoy Eminem, but I acknowledge that his lyricism is on a higher level both passionately and intellectually. Compare his art to the Miley Cyruses, the Willow Smiths, Pink, Blondie ect. You would have a really hard time defending the idea that every mainstream artist has the same level of talent in their possession.
I don't enjoy Beethoven, but I can appreciate the ground-breaking complexity of his work and how it still continues to influence music to this day. Unless you think Skrillex or Black Eyed Peas will have the same impact, it's safe to say that he's just another blip on the radar
I subjectively hate William Shakespeare's work, but I hold nothing but respect for the archetypal impact he's had on the modern novel/story-line. And then there is Stephanie Meyer... The majority of the public drool over wizards and glittering vampires with overtones of pedophilia, but they don't even know or comprehend Herman Melville, H.P. Lovecraft, Mark Twain, Aldous Huxley, and other authors who actually had meaningful ideas and craftsmanship.
Virtually every new car model is made up of fiber-glass, they don't just break in car-accidents, they get completely caved-in/obliterated along with becoming completely inoperable in the event of a solar-flare due to its internal components being computerized. Is it subjective to say that an old Volvo or any steel-framed mechanical car is better just because you can scrape other cars off of them with a brillow pad?
It doesn't just boil down to subjective inclinations, sometimes it's pretty cut and dry. The OP of the thread is asking a very relevant question and It's sad to see that you're dismissing it so quickly.
for what you mentioned, overall when compared to other things in a similar family, the quality could be seen as low. but each of those things had a dedicated fanbase who -quality notwithstanding- thoroughly enjoy them.
I agree with you, most of the award shows are just people stroking each other, award shows like Oscars, Emmys and even Grammys are just bullcrap nowadays.
You are right about being opinions and tastes being subjective, but there are ratings for a well technical reason.
There is actually GOOD music and BAD music even if its not your taste, same in films/books/videogames, etc etc etc.
We cannot say "Well... Superman 64 wasnt a bad videogame, its just you dont like it" it was actually a poorly developed videogame.
Yeah when it comes to award shows I always think of something Eddie Vedder once said in an interview where he was bashing award shows; "How do you give an award for best actor? They didn't play the same part". It's certainly subjective.
I totally get what you mean about the rest. But I feel there needs to be room for artistic expression. Take Kurt Cobain for example. Technically speaking he was a pretty terrible guitar player (the guy could play like 3 or 4 chords and he played them badly). But he was able to play good enough to express himself and what he made resonated with a large group of people. Does that mean he's bad because his technical skills aren't as good as Eric Clapton or Jimmy Page? I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that would say no. (for the record, I'm not a big Nirvana fan, but Cobain is kind of my go to guy when it comes to guys that couldn't actually play very well but were super popular regardless).
I think when you take stuff like that into account it's not fair to say it's bad. I personally hate AC/DC and Tool but they still sell millions of records so they must be doing something right. To say they are bad or crap is basically telling all their fans they are stupid when in fact there are very intelligent people that like their music.
If we are comparing more concrete things like tools or normal household items I think it's perfectly acceptable to say one product is superior to another and that people are just wrong if they disagree. That type of thing isn't really subjective, some drills just work better than others and some dishwashers work better than others, no ifs ands or buts about it. But when it comes to art and personal expression...well that's another story all together.
Yeah when it comes to award shows I always think of something Eddie Vedder once said in an interview where he was bashing award shows; "How do you give an award for best actor? They didn't play the same part". It's certainly subjective.
I totally get what you mean about the rest. But I feel there needs to be room for artistic expression. Take Kurt Cobain for example. Technically speaking he was a pretty terrible guitar player (the guy could play like 3 or 4 chords and he played them badly). But he was able to play good enough to express himself and what he made resonated with a large group of people. Does that mean he's bad because his technical skills aren't as good as Eric Clapton or Jimmy Page? I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that would say no. (for the record, I'm not a big Nirvana fan, but Cobain is kind of my go to guy when it comes to guys that couldn't actually play very well but were super popular regardless).
I think when you take stuff like that into account it's not fair to say it's bad. I personally hate AC/DC and Tool but they still sell millions of records so they must be doing something right. To say they are bad or crap is basically telling all their fans they are stupid when in fact there are very intelligent people that like their music.
If we are comparing more concrete things like tools or normal household items I think it's perfectly acceptable to say one product is superior to another and that people are just wrong if they disagree. That type of thing isn't really subjective, some drills just work better than others and some dishwashers work better than others, no ifs ands or buts about it. But when it comes to art and personal expression...well that's another story all together.
Excellent example. I get what you are saying about people expressing themselves with music and such, I just recently started listening to Jaco Pastorius, he's almost unknown to the public and could be regarded as one of the best and most influential bassist of all time… and I wouldn't put him on my list of Top 5 because I don't like his style, I can't deny his technicality but I just wouldn't go through all his collection, but it doesnt mean it sucks just that its not made for me, same reason why people wouldnt like to play Ni no Kuni or Final Fantasy VI, its just not made for some people even IF they are awesome games.
But again, there's stuff just made for profit with no art/feeling/expression on it.
Can we say that films like The Marine or Blair Witch Project 2 have depth and emotion? Its all about profit. In fact EVERY video game based on a movie is only there for profit and 90% of them suck because they are rushed by the studios with poor content, poor design and poor playability overall because they just want on the fim's name and get some extra money too.
But again, there's stuff just made for profit with no art/feeling/expression on it.
This is how I feel everything has devolved into. I feel like I am in that episode of Southpark where he thinks everything is utter **** when hearing new music/ watching movie trailers/ seeing commercials. I look around and see most everybody completely oblivious which builds my frustration. I can "foretell" story lines to friends when it comes to TV shows... which amazes them but leaves me dumbfounded... same old rehashed ****. Don't get me started on this reboot bandwagon that is going on, I expect to see a reboot to the movie I am going see in the damn trailers to the movie I am watching nowadays...... ARGHHHHHHHHH. /primal scream
What exactly is wrong with Call of Duty? I hardly have ever played the games, so I'm not quite sure where the problem lies. I didn't enjoy the game much personally, but I still don't get why it's being clumped into the same group as Twilight. Popularity?
I just remember CoD 2 was like the, "greatest game ever" by everyone, then a year or two later and those same people were saying that exact game was terrible. What's up with the change in opinion? Or was that just all bandwagon logic?
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Madden's been around for a long time, been seen as the one of the best football games out there. Not getting why it's considered "crap?" I don't particularly care for such games, but I've always seen people flock to them because they like football. Call of Duty in part comes out of the shooters. Really that genre's been maxed out since Quake and Unreal Tournament came around. There's no way to "revolutionize" so people go back towards the best mechanics that made these games good and rehash them for the masses. But really is "rehashing" bad?
It's like playing a game of sandlot baseball, sure the "quality" of the game is much lower than watching the Yankees. But you know what? It's fun because it's simple and people get to enjoy each other's company. Call of Duty and others are no similar than people who like MMA and fighting. They like hunting human beings without having to actually become "Dexter" or someone. It's a challenge to face prey that's stronger and more powerful and strategy. It goes to some of our base instincts and some of our higher ones such as strategy.
Overall, Fifty Shades of Grey is just commercialized soft porn. Sure is there "high quality" porn like Anne Rice? It's easy to understand, it fixates on some basic tropes and it's a quick grab. Look at most fanfiction, it's simple and sucks. However, every once in a while you see something that you can go "man that's stuff the ****."
From the perspective "for the long term," things with art always change. For example, I consider Catcher in the Rye to suck. But some people consider it a classic. I just them off, but it is what it is. Somethings exist.
Also, you're missing information cascade to which we mimic what other people do. But I see a lot of stuff as mostly remixes, like Harry Potter is a remix of a lot of fantasy stuff with a modern fantasy.
I like watching Bleach at times, because the sword fighting and sorcery is something goofy to watch every once in a blue. Would it be something I prefer to watch each day? Probably not. I read voluminous works. I read Das Kapital and watched a course on it "just for fun." But you know what? I still like Bleach on Hulu. Could I be reading something else or learning something more useful? Sure. But at the end of the day, there's just somethings that you know, you just want that thing where you don't have to think and just watch something flashy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
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Why do these things become famous and a lot of people pay for them?
And then comes the next question: why does exist people that dislike them?
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
. Early age conditioning: Children with feeble, developing minds are the easiest to persuade since they're.. well... developing minds. If you can hook em while they're young, you have em for life. http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2011/borzekowski-nag-factor.html
. The "us vs them" mentality, you can see the basic principles in a lot of sports stadiums, political campaigns, and even everyday life if you're keen on it. A widely used tactic and Call of Duty is a perfect example. Here are a couple links
http://www.inboundsales.net/blog/bid/32997/Us-vs-Them-How-to-create-fanatical-customers
. Social proof http://blog.kissmetrics.com/social-proof-factors-2/
. Predetermined Biofeedback: http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html This article highlights some pretty subtle and widespread techniques, it's just a cracked article but it does provide more links into reputable sources
Another way of looking at it is that the products themselves are no longer being sold, it's the emotional/psychological stroking that's being sold. If it seems far-fetched, ask yourself why these companies spend millions of dollars annually on psychological research and hiring professional psychologists. People in general are also dumb, I respect that you're not afraid to start a thread to ask this kind of question in the first place.
Other related materials
The Corporation: A great documentary
Atlas Shrugged: This one's a beast, a heavy read and highly misunderstood by its critics and sometimes even its followers
Social Blueprints: Conceptual Foundations of Sociology
The Game, by Neil Strauss: Sheds light on the "pick up artist community" and how social engineers are able to use their knowledge of psychology, evolution, and other forms of discourse in order to get laid.
Derren Brown: A fantastic mentalist, just youtube this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nVw09ujMfs
and other books on hypnosis or even NLP: Milton Erickson, Bandler, and Grinder are the most well-known
Planned Obsolescence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
Maybe they're just crap in your eyes and not to the ones that buy them?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
That's why I don't want to discuss that topic. Is too ambigous. For this question, we would have to agree that there actually things that are better than others.
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
There are certainly things out there that are better than others but all of your examples are based on personal opinion and are therefore subjective.
As for critics and reviewers, I think a lot of people are lazy and they want someone else to tell them if something is good or not rather than find out for themselves.
IMO award shows are all about stroking already over inflated egos and are mostly meaningless. But that's just my opinion.
I agree with you, most of the award shows are just people stroking each other, award shows like Oscars, Emmys and even Grammys are just bullcrap nowadays.
You are right about being opinions and tastes being subjective, but there are ratings for a well technical reason.
There is actually GOOD music and BAD music even if its not your taste, same in films/books/videogames, etc etc etc.
We cannot say "Well... Superman 64 wasnt a bad videogame, its just you dont like it" it was actually a poorly developed videogame.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
I respectfully disagree with you. There is a spectrum of "good and bad" out there and you are right in asserting that personal opinion plays a huge role in determining what's a good product and what's bad. There are a lot of musicians out there that I don't personally enjoy but I still have a lot of respect for them, the same principle applies to every form of entertainment and productivity.
For instance, I don't personally enjoy Eminem, but I acknowledge that his lyricism is on a higher level both passionately and intellectually. Compare his art to the Miley Cyruses, the Willow Smiths, Pink, Blondie ect. You would have a really hard time defending the idea that every mainstream artist has the same level of talent in their possession.
I don't enjoy Beethoven, but I can appreciate the ground-breaking complexity of his work and how it still continues to influence music to this day. Unless you think Skrillex or Black Eyed Peas will have the same impact, it's safe to say that he's just another blip on the radar
I subjectively hate William Shakespeare's work, but I hold nothing but respect for the archetypal impact he's had on the modern novel/story-line. And then there is Stephanie Meyer... The majority of the public drool over wizards and glittering vampires with overtones of pedophilia, but they don't even know or comprehend Herman Melville, H.P. Lovecraft, Mark Twain, Aldous Huxley, and other authors who actually had meaningful ideas and craftsmanship.
Virtually every new car model is made up of fiber-glass, they don't just break in car-accidents, they get completely caved-in/obliterated along with becoming completely inoperable in the event of a solar-flare due to its internal components being computerized. Is it subjective to say that an old Volvo or any steel-framed mechanical car is better just because you can scrape other cars off of them with a brillow pad?
It doesn't just boil down to subjective inclinations, sometimes it's pretty cut and dry. The OP of the thread is asking a very relevant question and It's sad to see that you're dismissing it so quickly.
Yeah when it comes to award shows I always think of something Eddie Vedder once said in an interview where he was bashing award shows; "How do you give an award for best actor? They didn't play the same part". It's certainly subjective.
I totally get what you mean about the rest. But I feel there needs to be room for artistic expression. Take Kurt Cobain for example. Technically speaking he was a pretty terrible guitar player (the guy could play like 3 or 4 chords and he played them badly). But he was able to play good enough to express himself and what he made resonated with a large group of people. Does that mean he's bad because his technical skills aren't as good as Eric Clapton or Jimmy Page? I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that would say no. (for the record, I'm not a big Nirvana fan, but Cobain is kind of my go to guy when it comes to guys that couldn't actually play very well but were super popular regardless).
I think when you take stuff like that into account it's not fair to say it's bad. I personally hate AC/DC and Tool but they still sell millions of records so they must be doing something right. To say they are bad or crap is basically telling all their fans they are stupid when in fact there are very intelligent people that like their music.
If we are comparing more concrete things like tools or normal household items I think it's perfectly acceptable to say one product is superior to another and that people are just wrong if they disagree. That type of thing isn't really subjective, some drills just work better than others and some dishwashers work better than others, no ifs ands or buts about it. But when it comes to art and personal expression...well that's another story all together.
Excellent example. I get what you are saying about people expressing themselves with music and such, I just recently started listening to Jaco Pastorius, he's almost unknown to the public and could be regarded as one of the best and most influential bassist of all time… and I wouldn't put him on my list of Top 5 because I don't like his style, I can't deny his technicality but I just wouldn't go through all his collection, but it doesnt mean it sucks just that its not made for me, same reason why people wouldnt like to play Ni no Kuni or Final Fantasy VI, its just not made for some people even IF they are awesome games.
But again, there's stuff just made for profit with no art/feeling/expression on it.
Can we say that films like The Marine or Blair Witch Project 2 have depth and emotion? Its all about profit. In fact EVERY video game based on a movie is only there for profit and 90% of them suck because they are rushed by the studios with poor content, poor design and poor playability overall because they just want on the fim's name and get some extra money too.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/805-w-underground-sea-h-revised-lands
This is how I feel everything has devolved into. I feel like I am in that episode of Southpark where he thinks everything is utter **** when hearing new music/ watching movie trailers/ seeing commercials. I look around and see most everybody completely oblivious which builds my frustration. I can "foretell" story lines to friends when it comes to TV shows... which amazes them but leaves me dumbfounded... same old rehashed ****. Don't get me started on this reboot bandwagon that is going on, I expect to see a reboot to the movie I am going see in the damn trailers to the movie I am watching nowadays...... ARGHHHHHHHHH. /primal scream
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
I just remember CoD 2 was like the, "greatest game ever" by everyone, then a year or two later and those same people were saying that exact game was terrible. What's up with the change in opinion? Or was that just all bandwagon logic?
It's like playing a game of sandlot baseball, sure the "quality" of the game is much lower than watching the Yankees. But you know what? It's fun because it's simple and people get to enjoy each other's company. Call of Duty and others are no similar than people who like MMA and fighting. They like hunting human beings without having to actually become "Dexter" or someone. It's a challenge to face prey that's stronger and more powerful and strategy. It goes to some of our base instincts and some of our higher ones such as strategy.
Overall, Fifty Shades of Grey is just commercialized soft porn. Sure is there "high quality" porn like Anne Rice? It's easy to understand, it fixates on some basic tropes and it's a quick grab. Look at most fanfiction, it's simple and sucks. However, every once in a while you see something that you can go "man that's stuff the ****."
From the perspective "for the long term," things with art always change. For example, I consider Catcher in the Rye to suck. But some people consider it a classic. I just them off, but it is what it is. Somethings exist.
Also, you're missing information cascade to which we mimic what other people do. But I see a lot of stuff as mostly remixes, like Harry Potter is a remix of a lot of fantasy stuff with a modern fantasy.
I like watching Bleach at times, because the sword fighting and sorcery is something goofy to watch every once in a blue. Would it be something I prefer to watch each day? Probably not. I read voluminous works. I read Das Kapital and watched a course on it "just for fun." But you know what? I still like Bleach on Hulu. Could I be reading something else or learning something more useful? Sure. But at the end of the day, there's just somethings that you know, you just want that thing where you don't have to think and just watch something flashy.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.