I'm a Christian. I don't force my beliefs on anyone, and I was willing convert to Christianity. I'm liberal, and so (as my sig will tell you) I vote for things that others would consider "wrong." No one is forcing you to have an abortion if you get pregnant, and no one is forcing your daughter to either. If two people of the same gender choose to get married, then it has no bearings on my soul- let the Lord judge them as he will. There's a separation of church and state, and the church's laws should not be enacted in a secular nation without secular reasoning. As certain as the Lord gave us free will, we are given the right to choose whether or not to sin. But yet still, if I display my faith in any manner or announce it anywhere, it feels as if I have the entire world jumping down my throat for believing in any kind of higher power, in God or in Christ.
Atheism is growing increasingly popular, and by atheism I'm not talking about "secular action." You can take 'God' out of the pledge of the allegiance, and I won't care, because faith in God will still be in my heart. Give me the chance to vote for stem cell research, and I'll jump at it. Show me a Discovery channel documentary on dinosaurs or the big bang and the universe, and I'll be fascinated! I love those shows! But here at MTGS, it feels as if there's a strong anti-religious presence. I am not another piece of the stereotype. I'm not an ignorant bigot who blindly votes Republican because the Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" as my ignorant grandfather so diligently insists. But yet I still feel attacked for believing in God, and I still feel offended because no one seems to be showing such a belief any kind of respect.
Is it so wrong to believe in something? I acknowledge that there's overwhelming evidence for evolution, can you acknowledge that maybe God initiated or created the cell that is responsible for human life? I acknowledge that there was most likely a "Big Bang". Is it so wrong to believe that perhaps God caused it? And then I'm constantly faced with all these "God can't exist because he can't create a rock so big he can't lift." or "God cant comit suicide becuz he's eternal so he cant be all powerful lololol Im so wity." Have some respect for my beliefs too! I feel that if moderators enforce respect to people of different creeds, colors, and countries, I think they should at least encourage respect for those of different belief systems. What if you were an African American and I said "The only reason black people are so strong anyway is because their owners bred them with other strong blacks, so they have white people to thank for slavery! Lololol" Would you not be offended? That's how I feel when I look into most threads regarding religion in the debate forum- the things people post are just outright disrespectful. Of course, you have every right to say what you will (within the forum guidelines of course) and have the opinion you choose, but you don't have to be so lighthearted about expressing it. I'm not a bible-thumper, I'm not telling you you're going to hell for acknowledging Einstein's theories, I'm not even accusing you of sin because the only one with any right to judge anyone else is the Lord.
"Well you're a reasonable individual, but there are people out there like that." - True, but they're not here. Realize that when you attack them, you hurt all of us, just like with race. Not all of us deserve that.
I think that's another issue I'd like to bring up separate to this- I acknowledge that I may be wrong, can someone please acknowledge that I may be right? If I say "Hey, good point, that might be true," in an argument, would you mind acknowledging my points as well, rather than just avoiding them? This is how people come to an agreement or a mutual settlement rather than leaving their keyboards frustrated and angry. Otherwise, you grow to hate other posters- you find them irrational and unreasonable. But as I said, this is another issue entirely.
Does anyone else feel my frustration with this? Either of these things?
I'm a Christian myself, but I generally don't get offended by off handed comments.
I'm very strange compaired to the typical Christian though, and that certainly contributes to my perspective. I personally follow the teachings of Christ, but I do not automatically associate myself with the very human culture of christianity, and even outright disagree with it from time to time.
I generally don't talk about my personal beliefs in public forums, prefering a inward journey, if that makes sense. For that reason, I'm a little awkward and uneasy talking about it here to be honest.
But the thing is, when I read a criticisim of the church, I try to learn from it. I examine it for clarity and honesty, and try to weed out hatefull attacks. Often enough (and If I look honestly enough), I can find myself criticizing the church about the same thing, if that makes any sense.
But to answer your question, no. I don't find it difficult. Sometimes it is a challenge socially, but it is not impossible to overcome, and to find common ground. A lot of our problems stem from poor comunication at the end of the day.
The only problem that I have found, is in negative steryotypes. I don't agree with a lot of what contemporary christians have to say about the social problems of our time, and I've had people make grand, sweeping assumptions of my beliefs in the past as soon as they found out what my religion was. It has been awkward and mildly annoying in the past, but only a handfull of times have I encountered someone so stubbornly clinging to preconcieved notions that they didn't allow themselves to see the truth of my nature.
Edit: In the above, I was talking about social circumstances. But, being religious can be very challenging on a personal, philosophical level. I do not want to get into that discussion over the internet though.
Christians are still the extremely dominant majority. I have no sympathy for white people who whine about "reverse discrimination," and until I stop hearing "In God We Trust" and seeing people sworn in on Bibles, don't expect me to feel sorry for you only being 82% of the population.
I'm sorry to hear that you find it's a majority, or at least an active and large minority, acting this way. There are disrespectful people in all groups, just as there are intelligent and unintelligent. I got comments about my atheism in much the same way whenever I visited any church with family and friends, and eventually just stopped doing so.
It's always there, and I wish I could say there's a way to get disrespectful people to hold their tongues, but I've yet to find one that doesn't involve never mentioning it. I hope I'm not sounding unsympathetic, but this is one of the negative aspects of life, and there's not a whole lot to do about it.
Edit - Wow, there are already a couple slightly attacking posts in this thread. I'm very surprised, and rather disappointed. That's the way the Internet works, I guess.
I'm not having a problem at all with my religion, maybe because the Philippines is a very Christian country. I have many Muslim friends, quite a good number of Atheist friends and one or two Jewish and Buddhist friends in my high school. It has never been a challenge for me to say, "Hey! I'm a Christian" amidst their presence and we actually welcome thoughts about each other's religion.
If you have a firm ground in your belief, you wouldn't be so disturbed by everything around you. If you are Christian and are proud to say it, then God is truly by your side.
I'm not having a problem at all with my religion, maybe because the Philippines is a very Christian country. I have many Muslim friends, quite a good number of Atheist friends and one or two Jewish and Buddhist friends in my high school. It has never been a challenge for me to say, "Hey! I'm a Christian" amidst their presence and we actually welcome thoughts about each other's religion.
If you have a firm ground in your belief, you wouldn't be so disturbed by everything around you. If you are Christian and are proud to say it, then God is truly by your side.
I like your mentality. I myself have a very diverse group of friends. One of the most remarkable and enlightening conversations I've had was setting around a table with a Buddhist, two Christians, a polytheistic Diest and an athiest.
And another one happend with two Muslim's, an athiest and myself.
I like your mentality. I myself have a very diverse group of friends. One of the most remarkable and enlightening conversations I've had was setting around a table with a Buddhist, two Christians, a polytheistic Diest and an athiest.
And another one happend with two Muslim's, an athiest and myself.
My life is a walking punchline waiting to happen.
Thanks.
I mean look... if I was really troubled with my faith, I wouldn't be playing magic with all the neg connotations it has, right? Plus would any of us jeopardize our friendships with non-Christians if we are too insecure of our faith?
Is it so wrong to believe in something? I acknowledge that there's overwhelming evidence for evolution, can you acknowledge that maybe God initiated or created the cell that is responsible for human life? I acknowledge that there was most likely a "Big Bang". Is it so wrong to believe that perhaps God caused it?
Kind of off topic, but if you want to find out more about that, you should read Calculating God by Robert J. Sawyer. It's fiction, but it explores that very concept, using some actual math and science (Sawyer does this kind of thing in all of his books). While I personally don't believe it (I'm ignostic, for the record), it is fascinating reading.
As to the actual thread topic, I have to admit I've been guilty of prejudice against Christians in my time. I used to consider myself a hard-line atheist, and I would call out the faithful on chat rooms, arguing the reasons why believing in God was stupid, contradictions in the Bible, things like that. After awhile, I realized that I don't have a problem with most Christians. Some of by best friends are Christians, most of all my United Church minister father, with whom I get along very well. Why should I be attacking random strangers for believing the same thing that my loved ones believe? The only Christians I really have a problem with the pushy Fundamentalist types, and trying to logically argue against God with a Fundamentalist is virtually impossible.
So, since I realized the futility/utter asshattery of what I was doing, I've tried to adopt a more "live and let live" approach towards the religious. You don't try to convert me, I won't try to convert you. And lo and behold, I've become a much happier person
Zyrakis:
Atheism is disproportionately represented on the internet, and MTGS is no exception. The difference between MTGS and most forums is that there are actually people who are willing to properly discuss their beliefs. You are ostensibly part of that minority. "Anti-religious" statements (in the more harsh vein) are generally directed at religious people who are simply ridiculous and wish to impose absurdity on others (and unfortunately, these people are numerous).
In response to your "respecting beliefs", I can't agree. Aside from the sort of harsh statements I mentioned that might occur, debating ideas is just that: debating ideas, not the other member. Only the way one approaches debate and conducts oneself reflects on the person (eg. holding some belief despite having been proven wrong, whining about everyone else "not having looked at the evidence" when they have).
Further, what exactly is meant by "respecting beliefs"? I can respect (or disrespect) a person, but I can only argue for or against the merits of a particular belief. The point is that no belief is sacred, and that everything must be examined. There might be many ill-conceived contentions floating around, but they are not so just because they oppose a certain viewpoint. I don't see at all how the two statements you quoted (paraphrased anyhow) are offensive. Tell me what offends you.
No one is forcing you to have an abortion if you get pregnant, and no one is forcing your daughter to either. If two people of the same gender choose to get married, then it has no bearings on <snip> There's a separation of church and state, and the church's laws should not be enacted in a secular nation without secular reasoning.
As Einsteinmonkey implicated, I don't think it's often a case of people who disapprove of your belief in supernaturalism or in God. I think that, more likely, it's that people disapprove of specifics of (in this instance) Christianity with which they are in conflict. This can lead to prejudice, or rejection of religious supernaturalism, or to greater understanding, depending on the situation.
Some context: I am a theist, but I recognize that my theistic notions are perhaps different than the belief systems of other theists. I see myself as having a very detailed definition of God, and of deity (two terms which I distinguish form on another for some purposes), and of "supernature." I've also been labelled a panentheist and a "moral epistemicist." I am an advocate of interfaith relations.
I call myself Christian, but I recognize that many members of organized Christian denominations would denouce that claim based on their own criteria. I think I have a different means of understanding Christian ethos and ideology than many others. I believe in not only sharing my intellectual ideas, but in taking part in a communion with my environment and those who live in it, not merely other believers or others of like mind with myself. However, I do not consider myself an official or observant member of any mainstream denomination of Christendom, for the same reason a Catholic would not consider herself a Protestant, and a Protestant not consider herself a Catholic. It is not a hostility but an admission that I could not honestly claim myself as a member of those communities based on their criteria.
Anyway, I like to talk. I like to tell people what I think. I like to discuss morality. I believe it's part of my responsibility to inform others, tactfully and constructively, of how I believe we should behave as humans. I do not believe it's right or sensitive for another to tell me that I shouldn't have my beliefs, and that I should have theirs - nor would I do this to another. However, I can be persuaded with ideas, facts, reasoning, and pleas. I do not believe my ideological system is perfect or beyond scrutiny. I feel that it's important to accept disagreements and to strive to find not only the common ground among debate opponents and those I converse with, but new ground. I've learned much from other people, and intend to continue as such.
I see myself as "inTolerant" in that colloquial sense that some use. For instance, if someone I am speaking with has a belief I disagree with, if I feel it is appropriate I may tell that person why I disagree and what I believe instead - again, tactfully and respectfully. However, if another speaks or behaves in a way that I am strongly against and it is appropriate to intervene, I will not simply observe or chat about it. I will speak out against it. I am used to keeping quiet in the face of injustices, and now I am learning how not to be. I try to act within my own power against ills such as oppression, degradation, cruelty, abuse, violence, bigotry, manipulation, slander, divisiveness, and disrespect. In this sense I am not tolerant of the wrongful behavior of others which I have power to prevent or ameliorate, especially if that behavior affects me or those around me.
I think that even this can make it rough to have a strong belief system or a popularized belief system. Disagreements and bad feelings create conflicts, and those conflicts become even worse when belligerence, ignorance, or vitriol dominate these exchanges. It can be rough just trying to defend yourself in these situations.
But just as it can be tough facing disapproal for being religious, I think it'd be disingenuous to fail to recognize that it can be just as tough being an atheist, agnostic, nontheist, or part of an unconventional religion or religious minority.
As Einsteinmonkey said, I think it's good and helpful to examine, argue, question, criticize, and discuss each other's beliefs. I think what may be meant by "respecting each other's beliefs" really means respect the feeling of each person about these beliefs, and respecting his or her choice to believe or disbelieve anything, and respect each other's dignity in the face of disagreement.
So, I don't like to "agree to disagree," if that means just not being allowed to talk about some things.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
If you have a firm ground in your belief, you wouldn't be so disturbed by everything around you. If you are Christian and are proud to say it, then God is truly by your side.
Well firstly, to respond to something in your post, it's not that I'm surrounded by Atheists in real life, it's that I feel surrounded by them here on the internet.
But to take my real life encounters into it, the ones that I dislike most (actually the least common now that I'm out of high school) are the ones that seem to have proclaimed themselves Atheist (others as Satanists or Pagans, again, in high school) for the shock value of it. It's them that I find the most disrespectful, because they seem to be saying "**** God!!" because they just want attention and they want to make you angry. It gives them some value of self-significance.
But responding to the quote, it's not that it disturbs me, because that's a strong word. It's that it bothers me, and its quite continuous and even repetitive in form.
I generally don't talk about my personal beliefs in public forums, prefering a inward journey, if that makes sense. For that reason, I'm a little awkward and uneasy talking about it here to be honest.
I appreciate you speaking out on this thread's behalf. I don't speak about my beliefs either, but partly because I was afraid of "everyone jumping down my throat" as I said.
In response to your "respecting beliefs", I can't agree. Aside from the sort of harsh statements I mentioned that might occur, debating ideas is just that: debating ideas, not the other member. Only the way one approaches debate and conducts oneself reflects on the person (eg. holding some belief despite having been proven wrong, whining about everyone else "not having looked at the evidence" when they have).
I understand this and agree, there are no sacred cows in debate.
Quote from Same person »
Further, what exactly is meant by "respecting beliefs"? I can respect (or disrespect) a person, but I can only argue for or against the merits of a particular belief. The point is that no belief is sacred, and that everything must be examined. There might be many ill-conceived contentions floating around, but they are not so just because they oppose a certain viewpoint. I don't see at all how the two statements you quoted (paraphrased anyhow) are offensive. Tell me what offends you.
It's not quite like I'm asking you to play nice, but more like I'm wishing people would stop gunning down others who give off a hint of Christianity. It seems like if I bring my religious beliefs into any sort of conversation, it all of the sudden becomes a debate about God vs. No God. I have to go right now, but I'll expand on this later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Getting the last word does not mean that you win the argument.
But to take my real life encounters into it, the ones that I dislike most (actually the least common now that I'm out of high school) are the ones that seem to have proclaimed themselves Atheist (others as Satanists or Pagans, again, in high school) for the shock value of it. It's them that I find the most disrespectful, because they seem to be saying "**** God!!" because they just want attention and they want to make you angry. It gives them some value of self-significance.
Doing that sort of thing just to be a rebel is as attention-whoreish as anything else. But that's to be expected in high school, I'd imagine. And I can't say it's "rough" as things can go in high school.
It's not quite like I'm asking you to play nice, but more like I'm wishing people would stop gunning down others who give off a hint of Christianity. It seems like if I bring my religious beliefs into any sort of conversation, it all of the sudden becomes a debate about God vs. No God. I have to go right now, but I'll expand on this later.
When someone brings up their underlying beliefs in some thread on, for example, morality, it's usually because those beliefs are integral to their reasoning and consequently their thoughts on morality. Obviously, then, religious beliefs would be questioned as much as any other basis, and probably more so considering certain ideas are often solidly embedded in religious beliefs.
I like your mentality. I myself have a very diverse group of friends. One of the most remarkable and enlightening conversations I've had was setting around a table with a Buddhist, two Christians, a polytheistic Diest and an athiest.
And another one happend with two Muslim's, an athiest and myself.
People of different beliefs can live in harmony. In college, I lived with a Pagan, a Catholic, an Atheist, and an Agnostic (myself, at the time). All four of us were best friends; so much so, that after graduation 3 of us 4 moved to the same city together (the fourth couldn't make it due to grad school elsewhere). It doesn't take too much in common to work: MtG, video games, and b-movies. Ah, but definately an open mind.
I empathize with your frustration about feeling "attacked" when even the "hint" of your faith is revealed. I frequently visit another MtG website which is predominately Christian; when I mention my atheist point of view, it suddenly becomes 10 to 1, so to speak. As many have previously posted, "such is the way of the internet."
The fact that, so-far, every poster has been cordial, intelligent, and respectful lets you know that not everyone will chide your for your beliefs.
At any rate, zyrakris, private message me if you would like the link to the MtG site I visit which is predominately Christian, to which you may feel more comfortable.
(about the English language) It's kinda like a raft that was cobbled together from parts of three different boats and since then has been kept barely afloat with crude repairs every time a leak appeared.
Shouldn't this be in the debate sub-forums? It's a little too serious to be in the water cooler talk...
Just saying.
Z-boy (hope you don't mind if I call you that), I admit it's cliche to say what I said, but it's what I believe. And I believe that there is no right religion... there is no wrong religion... I know you're bothered by it, sorry about that but I just had to say it because I believe in it. Yippee!
I've been through High School... it wasn't much of a problem... in fact we didn't care what religion one person followed.
Some people just care too much.
And I totally agree on Einsteinmonkey. Many, if not all, ideas are based on religious beliefs, and to people reading those stuff, it is a test of what they are believing in.
That's why some people never bring up religion as an after-dinner conversation... that and politics.
I'm a liberal thinker. I really can't say that I'm a Christian since I don't believe that He is the only way to salvation. Jesus, to me, is like a moral teacher. Much like most spiritual leaders who've ever walked this world. That's why I'm pissed at people who say they're right, when they themselves have no right to say so since everyone has their own opinion. That's a reason why I hate those people who keep on persisting others to convert.
I'm friends with a lot of Christians, Muslims, two Jews (which are very rare here in the Philippines) and a Buddhist. And I can say, it's pretty fine. We respect each others beliefs. We do debate on matters of religion, and it usually ends in another topic. Much like gtiplord said, people can live in harmony as long as they develop a sense of religious tolerance.
I don't think that it's wrong being religious. In fact, most of my friends are religious. True, that whatever you believe in you will always be attacked by another. But every belief out there is essentially the same.
I feel betrayed by God. Being a catholic who wasn't baptised but forced to go to church when I was younger disenfranchised me. Seeing the people I love suffer and suffering through heart disease, a painful growth plate defect, and a debilitating shoulder injury that took away my ability to pitch effectively has made me bitter. I'm tired of seeing first hand how crappy the world can be to people, I'm sick and tired of God "testing" my faith. I think I've pretty much failed the test by now, I've given up on it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Shink »
I elect Soul_Grind for New Next TNA Mystery Amazing Super Writer of the week (for a day or two). I expect TNA to evolve into an entertaining circus/carnival under your leadership.
(\_/) () ()
(O.o) ( '.' )
(> <) (''')(''')
Put these 2 bunnies in your sig to help them on their quest for the tag team championship
That's why I'm pissed at people who say they're right, when they themselves have no right to say so since everyone has their own opinion. That's a reason why I hate those people who keep on persisting others to convert.
For an Evangelical Christian, isn't it their duty to try and convert others?
Even stronger, what if some religion preaches that nonbelievers should be killed? Can adherents of that religion live harmoniously with others?
True, that whatever you believe in you will always be attacked by another.
By "attack", you mean a contention with vitriolic sentiment?
Personally, I grew up in a generally secular place, though we were taught about different religions in school (both elementary and secondary), and took a field trip to a bunch of places of religious worship (in grade 6). It was perfectly "religions in harmony".
Z-boy (hope you don't mind if I call you that), I admit it's cliche to say what I said, but it's what I believe. And I believe that there is no right religion... there is no wrong religion... I know you're bothered by it, sorry about that but I just had to say it because I believe in it. Yippee!
How does this work with religions that have conflicting claims? For that matter, how does it work for a religion that makes any objective claim whatsoever? [This might be off-topic, so maybe PM if you want to respond?]
Before I became a "christian" people would think I am a christian even though I am not. I actually like pagans (and that is another term that gets different responses). So I think it is partly how you conduct yourself.
I have seen ugly people from both sides of the fence. And history has proven that what is most important is really the intent of the person or group. Religion becomes a tool sometimes.
Hence when I speak to someone, I always look for intent. If it is simply hubris, it really does'nt matter what religion it is.
Myself I have left my church. And I get people jumping on me for being a back slider. I get other church goers telling me to join theirs since they think there must be something wrong with my previous church. But the thing is this. I did'nt find anything wrong with my previous church. I think they are doing a great job, but there are somethings that I disagree with and so I left.
I know my God is still with me And to me I only hold two things dear, "God is Good" and "God is love". The rest I take it with a pinch of salt nowadays as really everyone has their own opinion and seriously, at the end I account to God and God alone.
Hmmm as for religiousity, haven't got a problem there really. If you feel offended, maybe ask why? There are many religious and angry people out there, sometimes there is a reason, sometimes there is'nt. God will do what is right either way in the end, so I am not too worried there. As for standing for what you believe in, I think that that is great, and sometimes you will be under pressure, that will be true what ever it is you believe in, not just religion.
@EM: It's like this. All religions have truth in them... duh, we wouldn't believe in what we believe it if it wasn't the truth... but there isn't a utopian religion. That's what I was trying to say... sorry to confuse you.
@Mieki: Actually to contradict that... There are many people who have non-Christian friends. It's either they don't want to admit it or they don't have a clue. *Pinoy ako, alam ko yan*
Shouldn't this be in the debate sub-forums? It's a little too serious to be in the water cooler talk...
Just saying.
No. Serious talk isn't taboo here. As long as this thread doesn't veer into a real debate, it's fine here as a serious discussion. Though I will be watching this thread fairly closely. If it becomes a pit of religious vs non-religious attacks, it will be closed and the worst offenders infracted.
So, I don't like to "agree to disagree," if that means just not being allowed to talk about some things.
No, it just means that you should realize that you will never convince people of anything. Even in the face of irrefutable proof (which does not exist), a large part of the population would not change their beliefs. It also means that you should not dislike these people or consider them an "enemy".
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
_______________________________ [L1 Judge|Add me to your ignore list]
|Molten Sentry count - 1002 (34*)|
I figure I'd bring in a different pespective here. I'm a Jew (I KILLED CHRIST, WOOOOOOOOOOOOO :-P j/k) who is conservative but closer to orthodox than reform.
I keep kosher all year long, go to services once a week, read torah around 6 times a year, and step up my observance during holidays. Last week at the end of passover, i took a break at work, opened a prayer book i took with me, and did a quick minha maariv before i ate bread (afternoon-night services).
Ive never seen any issues with this, and I'm based in North Carolina, so its not like there's a lot of jews. I'm not even the most observant here, (though of the undergrads, im pretty decent...we dont have any orthodox here really), but those who are more orthodox than me rarely get questioned, and are easily accepted.
Maybe Orthodox/whateveryoucallthem Christians are less accepted due to the political perceptions of them, but I know us jews do not have it "rough" being religous in Durham.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm a Christian. I don't force my beliefs on anyone, and I was willing convert to Christianity. I'm liberal, and so (as my sig will tell you) I vote for things that others would consider "wrong." No one is forcing you to have an abortion if you get pregnant, and no one is forcing your daughter to either. If two people of the same gender choose to get married, then it has no bearings on my soul- let the Lord judge them as he will. There's a separation of church and state, and the church's laws should not be enacted in a secular nation without secular reasoning. As certain as the Lord gave us free will, we are given the right to choose whether or not to sin. But yet still, if I display my faith in any manner or announce it anywhere, it feels as if I have the entire world jumping down my throat for believing in any kind of higher power, in God or in Christ.
Atheism is growing increasingly popular, and by atheism I'm not talking about "secular action." You can take 'God' out of the pledge of the allegiance, and I won't care, because faith in God will still be in my heart. Give me the chance to vote for stem cell research, and I'll jump at it. Show me a Discovery channel documentary on dinosaurs or the big bang and the universe, and I'll be fascinated! I love those shows! But here at MTGS, it feels as if there's a strong anti-religious presence. I am not another piece of the stereotype. I'm not an ignorant bigot who blindly votes Republican because the Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" as my ignorant grandfather so diligently insists. But yet I still feel attacked for believing in God, and I still feel offended because no one seems to be showing such a belief any kind of respect.
Is it so wrong to believe in something? I acknowledge that there's overwhelming evidence for evolution, can you acknowledge that maybe God initiated or created the cell that is responsible for human life? I acknowledge that there was most likely a "Big Bang". Is it so wrong to believe that perhaps God caused it? And then I'm constantly faced with all these "God can't exist because he can't create a rock so big he can't lift." or "God cant comit suicide becuz he's eternal so he cant be all powerful lololol Im so wity." Have some respect for my beliefs too! I feel that if moderators enforce respect to people of different creeds, colors, and countries, I think they should at least encourage respect for those of different belief systems. What if you were an African American and I said "The only reason black people are so strong anyway is because their owners bred them with other strong blacks, so they have white people to thank for slavery! Lololol" Would you not be offended? That's how I feel when I look into most threads regarding religion in the debate forum- the things people post are just outright disrespectful. Of course, you have every right to say what you will (within the forum guidelines of course) and have the opinion you choose, but you don't have to be so lighthearted about expressing it. I'm not a bible-thumper, I'm not telling you you're going to hell for acknowledging Einstein's theories, I'm not even accusing you of sin because the only one with any right to judge anyone else is the Lord.
"Well you're a reasonable individual, but there are people out there like that." - True, but they're not here. Realize that when you attack them, you hurt all of us, just like with race. Not all of us deserve that.
I think that's another issue I'd like to bring up separate to this- I acknowledge that I may be wrong, can someone please acknowledge that I may be right? If I say "Hey, good point, that might be true," in an argument, would you mind acknowledging my points as well, rather than just avoiding them? This is how people come to an agreement or a mutual settlement rather than leaving their keyboards frustrated and angry. Otherwise, you grow to hate other posters- you find them irrational and unreasonable. But as I said, this is another issue entirely.
Does anyone else feel my frustration with this? Either of these things?
I'm very strange compaired to the typical Christian though, and that certainly contributes to my perspective. I personally follow the teachings of Christ, but I do not automatically associate myself with the very human culture of christianity, and even outright disagree with it from time to time.
I generally don't talk about my personal beliefs in public forums, prefering a inward journey, if that makes sense. For that reason, I'm a little awkward and uneasy talking about it here to be honest.
But the thing is, when I read a criticisim of the church, I try to learn from it. I examine it for clarity and honesty, and try to weed out hatefull attacks. Often enough (and If I look honestly enough), I can find myself criticizing the church about the same thing, if that makes any sense.
But to answer your question, no. I don't find it difficult. Sometimes it is a challenge socially, but it is not impossible to overcome, and to find common ground. A lot of our problems stem from poor comunication at the end of the day.
The only problem that I have found, is in negative steryotypes. I don't agree with a lot of what contemporary christians have to say about the social problems of our time, and I've had people make grand, sweeping assumptions of my beliefs in the past as soon as they found out what my religion was. It has been awkward and mildly annoying in the past, but only a handfull of times have I encountered someone so stubbornly clinging to preconcieved notions that they didn't allow themselves to see the truth of my nature.
Edit: In the above, I was talking about social circumstances. But, being religious can be very challenging on a personal, philosophical level. I do not want to get into that discussion over the internet though.
Also, Z: there's not as many Atheists as you think; I don't haven't met any besides myself.
Thank you Feste
Some trailers/clips to really good movies (especially the 1st one): http://youtube.com/watch?v=zI1NKLmfP3w
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kv_qD5RHt_Q
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3rXK7NhWN8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KhUzN4oHHkU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=upo6MwPDOmQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eNNdJTt1xEA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6rRn8kM4-ds
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NPJu0h0z5S4
It's always there, and I wish I could say there's a way to get disrespectful people to hold their tongues, but I've yet to find one that doesn't involve never mentioning it. I hope I'm not sounding unsympathetic, but this is one of the negative aspects of life, and there's not a whole lot to do about it.
Edit - Wow, there are already a couple slightly attacking posts in this thread. I'm very surprised, and rather disappointed. That's the way the Internet works, I guess.
Hi.
I'm not having a problem at all with my religion, maybe because the Philippines is a very Christian country. I have many Muslim friends, quite a good number of Atheist friends and one or two Jewish and Buddhist friends in my high school. It has never been a challenge for me to say, "Hey! I'm a Christian" amidst their presence and we actually welcome thoughts about each other's religion.
If you have a firm ground in your belief, you wouldn't be so disturbed by everything around you. If you are Christian and are proud to say it, then God is truly by your side.
http://catskullcollector.deviantart.com
I like your mentality. I myself have a very diverse group of friends. One of the most remarkable and enlightening conversations I've had was setting around a table with a Buddhist, two Christians, a polytheistic Diest and an athiest.
And another one happend with two Muslim's, an athiest and myself.
My life is a walking punchline waiting to happen.
Thanks.
I mean look... if I was really troubled with my faith, I wouldn't be playing magic with all the neg connotations it has, right? Plus would any of us jeopardize our friendships with non-Christians if we are too insecure of our faith?
http://catskullcollector.deviantart.com
Kind of off topic, but if you want to find out more about that, you should read Calculating God by Robert J. Sawyer. It's fiction, but it explores that very concept, using some actual math and science (Sawyer does this kind of thing in all of his books). While I personally don't believe it (I'm ignostic, for the record), it is fascinating reading.
As to the actual thread topic, I have to admit I've been guilty of prejudice against Christians in my time. I used to consider myself a hard-line atheist, and I would call out the faithful on chat rooms, arguing the reasons why believing in God was stupid, contradictions in the Bible, things like that. After awhile, I realized that I don't have a problem with most Christians. Some of by best friends are Christians, most of all my United Church minister father, with whom I get along very well. Why should I be attacking random strangers for believing the same thing that my loved ones believe? The only Christians I really have a problem with the pushy Fundamentalist types, and trying to logically argue against God with a Fundamentalist is virtually impossible.
So, since I realized the futility/utter asshattery of what I was doing, I've tried to adopt a more "live and let live" approach towards the religious. You don't try to convert me, I won't try to convert you. And lo and behold, I've become a much happier person
Avatar and Sig banner by Spanglegluppet!
Staunch supporter of CoMPACT
I need Petaya berries. PM me!
Actually Z-boy, maybe you've just encountered a bad group of people... there are more understanding people out there...
http://catskullcollector.deviantart.com
Atheism is disproportionately represented on the internet, and MTGS is no exception. The difference between MTGS and most forums is that there are actually people who are willing to properly discuss their beliefs. You are ostensibly part of that minority. "Anti-religious" statements (in the more harsh vein) are generally directed at religious people who are simply ridiculous and wish to impose absurdity on others (and unfortunately, these people are numerous).
In response to your "respecting beliefs", I can't agree. Aside from the sort of harsh statements I mentioned that might occur, debating ideas is just that: debating ideas, not the other member. Only the way one approaches debate and conducts oneself reflects on the person (eg. holding some belief despite having been proven wrong, whining about everyone else "not having looked at the evidence" when they have).
Further, what exactly is meant by "respecting beliefs"? I can respect (or disrespect) a person, but I can only argue for or against the merits of a particular belief. The point is that no belief is sacred, and that everything must be examined. There might be many ill-conceived contentions floating around, but they are not so just because they oppose a certain viewpoint. I don't see at all how the two statements you quoted (paraphrased anyhow) are offensive. Tell me what offends you.
(Also, "ignorant" is a criticism.)
And it shouldn't be. Just ignore the people who don't know how to "agree to disagree". No benefit could come out of listening to them.
Word.
Also, may I introduce anyone to Pastafarianism?
_______________________________
[L1 Judge|Add me to your ignore list]
|Molten Sentry count - 1002 (34*)|
Some context: I am a theist, but I recognize that my theistic notions are perhaps different than the belief systems of other theists. I see myself as having a very detailed definition of God, and of deity (two terms which I distinguish form on another for some purposes), and of "supernature." I've also been labelled a panentheist and a "moral epistemicist." I am an advocate of interfaith relations.
I call myself Christian, but I recognize that many members of organized Christian denominations would denouce that claim based on their own criteria. I think I have a different means of understanding Christian ethos and ideology than many others. I believe in not only sharing my intellectual ideas, but in taking part in a communion with my environment and those who live in it, not merely other believers or others of like mind with myself. However, I do not consider myself an official or observant member of any mainstream denomination of Christendom, for the same reason a Catholic would not consider herself a Protestant, and a Protestant not consider herself a Catholic. It is not a hostility but an admission that I could not honestly claim myself as a member of those communities based on their criteria.
Anyway, I like to talk. I like to tell people what I think. I like to discuss morality. I believe it's part of my responsibility to inform others, tactfully and constructively, of how I believe we should behave as humans. I do not believe it's right or sensitive for another to tell me that I shouldn't have my beliefs, and that I should have theirs - nor would I do this to another. However, I can be persuaded with ideas, facts, reasoning, and pleas. I do not believe my ideological system is perfect or beyond scrutiny. I feel that it's important to accept disagreements and to strive to find not only the common ground among debate opponents and those I converse with, but new ground. I've learned much from other people, and intend to continue as such.
I see myself as "inTolerant" in that colloquial sense that some use. For instance, if someone I am speaking with has a belief I disagree with, if I feel it is appropriate I may tell that person why I disagree and what I believe instead - again, tactfully and respectfully. However, if another speaks or behaves in a way that I am strongly against and it is appropriate to intervene, I will not simply observe or chat about it. I will speak out against it. I am used to keeping quiet in the face of injustices, and now I am learning how not to be. I try to act within my own power against ills such as oppression, degradation, cruelty, abuse, violence, bigotry, manipulation, slander, divisiveness, and disrespect. In this sense I am not tolerant of the wrongful behavior of others which I have power to prevent or ameliorate, especially if that behavior affects me or those around me.
I think that even this can make it rough to have a strong belief system or a popularized belief system. Disagreements and bad feelings create conflicts, and those conflicts become even worse when belligerence, ignorance, or vitriol dominate these exchanges. It can be rough just trying to defend yourself in these situations.
But just as it can be tough facing disapproal for being religious, I think it'd be disingenuous to fail to recognize that it can be just as tough being an atheist, agnostic, nontheist, or part of an unconventional religion or religious minority.
As Einsteinmonkey said, I think it's good and helpful to examine, argue, question, criticize, and discuss each other's beliefs. I think what may be meant by "respecting each other's beliefs" really means respect the feeling of each person about these beliefs, and respecting his or her choice to believe or disbelieve anything, and respect each other's dignity in the face of disagreement.
So, I don't like to "agree to disagree," if that means just not being allowed to talk about some things.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Well firstly, to respond to something in your post, it's not that I'm surrounded by Atheists in real life, it's that I feel surrounded by them here on the internet.
But to take my real life encounters into it, the ones that I dislike most (actually the least common now that I'm out of high school) are the ones that seem to have proclaimed themselves Atheist (others as Satanists or Pagans, again, in high school) for the shock value of it. It's them that I find the most disrespectful, because they seem to be saying "**** God!!" because they just want attention and they want to make you angry. It gives them some value of self-significance.
But responding to the quote, it's not that it disturbs me, because that's a strong word. It's that it bothers me, and its quite continuous and even repetitive in form.
I appreciate you speaking out on this thread's behalf. I don't speak about my beliefs either, but partly because I was afraid of "everyone jumping down my throat" as I said.
I understand this and agree, there are no sacred cows in debate.
It's not quite like I'm asking you to play nice, but more like I'm wishing people would stop gunning down others who give off a hint of Christianity. It seems like if I bring my religious beliefs into any sort of conversation, it all of the sudden becomes a debate about God vs. No God. I have to go right now, but I'll expand on this later.
Doing that sort of thing just to be a rebel is as attention-whoreish as anything else. But that's to be expected in high school, I'd imagine. And I can't say it's "rough" as things can go in high school.
When someone brings up their underlying beliefs in some thread on, for example, morality, it's usually because those beliefs are integral to their reasoning and consequently their thoughts on morality. Obviously, then, religious beliefs would be questioned as much as any other basis, and probably more so considering certain ideas are often solidly embedded in religious beliefs.
People of different beliefs can live in harmony. In college, I lived with a Pagan, a Catholic, an Atheist, and an Agnostic (myself, at the time). All four of us were best friends; so much so, that after graduation 3 of us 4 moved to the same city together (the fourth couldn't make it due to grad school elsewhere). It doesn't take too much in common to work: MtG, video games, and b-movies. Ah, but definately an open mind.
I empathize with your frustration about feeling "attacked" when even the "hint" of your faith is revealed. I frequently visit another MtG website which is predominately Christian; when I mention my atheist point of view, it suddenly becomes 10 to 1, so to speak. As many have previously posted, "such is the way of the internet."
The fact that, so-far, every poster has been cordial, intelligent, and respectful lets you know that not everyone will chide your for your beliefs.
At any rate, zyrakris, private message me if you would like the link to the MtG site I visit which is predominately Christian, to which you may feel more comfortable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Just saying.
Z-boy (hope you don't mind if I call you that), I admit it's cliche to say what I said, but it's what I believe. And I believe that there is no right religion... there is no wrong religion... I know you're bothered by it, sorry about that but I just had to say it because I believe in it. Yippee!
I've been through High School... it wasn't much of a problem... in fact we didn't care what religion one person followed.
Some people just care too much.
And I totally agree on Einsteinmonkey. Many, if not all, ideas are based on religious beliefs, and to people reading those stuff, it is a test of what they are believing in.
That's why some people never bring up religion as an after-dinner conversation... that and politics.
http://catskullcollector.deviantart.com
I'm friends with a lot of Christians, Muslims, two Jews (which are very rare here in the Philippines) and a Buddhist. And I can say, it's pretty fine. We respect each others beliefs. We do debate on matters of religion, and it usually ends in another topic. Much like gtiplord said, people can live in harmony as long as they develop a sense of religious tolerance.
I don't think that it's wrong being religious. In fact, most of my friends are religious. True, that whatever you believe in you will always be attacked by another. But every belief out there is essentially the same.
Wow. I typed a lot. And this post needs cleanup.
Past Sigs:1|2|3|4
Pseudo Member of the Titans Test Team
Now Piloting:
Gundam TR-1 [Hazel-Rah] Second Form
For an Evangelical Christian, isn't it their duty to try and convert others?
Even stronger, what if some religion preaches that nonbelievers should be killed? Can adherents of that religion live harmoniously with others?
By "attack", you mean a contention with vitriolic sentiment?
Personally, I grew up in a generally secular place, though we were taught about different religions in school (both elementary and secondary), and took a field trip to a bunch of places of religious worship (in grade 6). It was perfectly "religions in harmony".
How does this work with religions that have conflicting claims? For that matter, how does it work for a religion that makes any objective claim whatsoever? [This might be off-topic, so maybe PM if you want to respond?]
I have seen ugly people from both sides of the fence. And history has proven that what is most important is really the intent of the person or group. Religion becomes a tool sometimes.
Hence when I speak to someone, I always look for intent. If it is simply hubris, it really does'nt matter what religion it is.
Myself I have left my church. And I get people jumping on me for being a back slider. I get other church goers telling me to join theirs since they think there must be something wrong with my previous church. But the thing is this. I did'nt find anything wrong with my previous church. I think they are doing a great job, but there are somethings that I disagree with and so I left.
I know my God is still with me And to me I only hold two things dear, "God is Good" and "God is love". The rest I take it with a pinch of salt nowadays as really everyone has their own opinion and seriously, at the end I account to God and God alone.
Hmmm as for religiousity, haven't got a problem there really. If you feel offended, maybe ask why? There are many religious and angry people out there, sometimes there is a reason, sometimes there is'nt. God will do what is right either way in the end, so I am not too worried there. As for standing for what you believe in, I think that that is great, and sometimes you will be under pressure, that will be true what ever it is you believe in, not just religion.
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
@Mieki: Actually to contradict that... There are many people who have non-Christian friends. It's either they don't want to admit it or they don't have a clue. *Pinoy ako, alam ko yan*
http://catskullcollector.deviantart.com
No. Serious talk isn't taboo here. As long as this thread doesn't veer into a real debate, it's fine here as a serious discussion. Though I will be watching this thread fairly closely. If it becomes a pit of religious vs non-religious attacks, it will be closed and the worst offenders infracted.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
No, it just means that you should realize that you will never convince people of anything. Even in the face of irrefutable proof (which does not exist), a large part of the population would not change their beliefs. It also means that you should not dislike these people or consider them an "enemy".
_______________________________
[L1 Judge|Add me to your ignore list]
|Molten Sentry count - 1002 (34*)|
I keep kosher all year long, go to services once a week, read torah around 6 times a year, and step up my observance during holidays. Last week at the end of passover, i took a break at work, opened a prayer book i took with me, and did a quick minha maariv before i ate bread (afternoon-night services).
Ive never seen any issues with this, and I'm based in North Carolina, so its not like there's a lot of jews. I'm not even the most observant here, (though of the undergrads, im pretty decent...we dont have any orthodox here really), but those who are more orthodox than me rarely get questioned, and are easily accepted.
Maybe Orthodox/whateveryoucallthem Christians are less accepted due to the political perceptions of them, but I know us jews do not have it "rough" being religous in Durham.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity