Ergh, being a Christian sucks. On one hand, you have the fundies who'll call you an assbandit babykiller if you don't take the entire Bible literally and vote straight Republican, and on the other you have the well-meaning but confused atheists and non-Christians who mistake you for a fundy who is going to call them assbandit babykillers for not being a Christian and not voting straight Republican. Look, I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, and I feel that's what Jesus would have wanted: love and tolerance and freedom for all the human race. There are too many people, however, who are missing that message.
Ergh, being a Christian sucks. On one hand, you have the fundies who'll call you an assbandit babykiller if you don't take the entire Bible literally and vote straight Republican, and on the other you have the well-meaning but confused atheists and non-Christians who mistake you for a fundy who is going to call them assbandit babykillers for not being a Christian and not voting straight Republican. Look, I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, and I feel that's what Jesus would have wanted: love and tolerance and freedom for all the human race. There are too many people, however, who are missing that message.
And this is what garners much respect for your beliefs imho. The negative image of the Christian right pisses many people off, and rightfully so. A more liberal approach to Christianity is very positive and a huge step forward. Though it may be hard, don't get discouraged. Anyone that gives you a hard time by labeling you is guilty of the same things that many far right Christians are, ironically. As a liberal Christian, you are an asset to the faith.
I imagine it's hard to be religious. And that goes for pretty much every religion because each other religion wants to be 'the right one', too. Not to mention fundamentalists who give their religions bad names. It's kind of sad that public opinion is generally based on the extremists' attitudes which really aren't the attitudes of a religion as a whole. Personally, I try to mentally separate the wingnuts of a religion (like Westboro Baptists as a sect of Christianity) from everyone else since I don't think it's fair to assume that a whole group can be judged on its worst members.
That said, I probably won't be shedding tears for the deeply oppressed Christians in America. Last I checked, you had a very healthy majority, so even if you have to suffer critics painting your whole religion as being just like your extremists, you still hold a lot of sway in your own right.
If I've learned anything this year, it's just how hard it is to be Christian. Not because of prejudice or anything like that, I think since the Nero days things have only gone upward, but just what it means to be one. The universe is not moral. People will rise and succeed or fail and perish simply by chance. Terrible things will happen to good people. One man will perform an action and prosper, while another in the same situation will find only destruction, and the explanation for both will be the same: it's just how it happened.
And so to believe in, and devote yourself to, and act upon a faith that there is justice in the universe, that there is a power that is concerned with humanity and our well-being amidst all the wrong that is going on shows, to me, an incredible amount of courage.
Regarding anti-religious bigotry: I think it's just easier to tear something down than to actually establish a belief in something. I would give it no heed.
@EM: It's like this. All religions have truth in them... duh, we wouldn't believe in what we believe it if it wasn't the truth... but there isn't a utopian religion. That's what I was trying to say... sorry to confuse you.
What truth is that? There are many religions that have contradicting tenets [in fact, because they have different tenets, they are called different religions in the first place], and even on the central point of theism, Buddhists are atheistic. And if you're saying that all religions have a bit of truth in each of them (eg. "you should be charitable like Jesus"), then you would be believing in a certain philosophy, and you'd have to come by in some way, and what way is that?
No, it just means that you should realize that you will never convince people of anything. Even in the face of irrefutable proof (which does not exist), a large part of the population would not change their beliefs. It also means that you should not dislike these people or consider them an "enemy".
Really? Why shouldn't I dislike those people? Does it matter that there is no 100% proof [for anything but the most logical of statements]? I dislike, for example, intelligent design proponents or "alternative" medicine types for that reason. There are many people that wouldn't be convinced with mountains of evidence to give up certain beliefs. I see that as a glaring flaw, and certainly one that I should dislike people for.
And so to believe in, and devote yourself to, and act upon a faith that there is justice in the universe, that there is a power that is concerned with humanity and our well-being amidst all the wrong that is going on shows, to me, an incredible amount of courage.
I might use another word, but that's neither here nor there
Zyrakris, I totally feel your pain. I am a liberal Christian also, and from what you described about your beliefs, I think I share many of them. I have experienced what you are describing right on this site also, and it makes me mad when it happens every time.
See, the thing that makes me mad is not when people express beliefs that are very different than mine. When that happens, I try to respectfully explain why I disagree with those beliefs and say what I believe, but I don't push people (at least I hope not) into believing what I do. I hope that people listen to me and consider my viewpoints, because if there is anything I really don't like, it is a closed mind that will not change no matter what it hears.
What really bothers me on this site is when people assume that everything they believe is perfectly right and that everyone else who doesn't believe what they do is ignorant and dumb. I've seen people go into threads about religion and start out by saying "There is no God". Not "I believe that there is no God" or "I don't think there is a higher power" but just "God doesn't exist". People have to learn to at least acknowledge not only the beliefs but the feelings of others. I know this is an internet forum, but politeness is still important, and makes for a much better debate. The only way that atheists and theists can understand each other is by acting polite and kindly to each other and not only listening, but considering, the points of the other group.
It makes me sad that Christians are viewed in such a negative light these days, and that so many Christians act in a way that creates such a negative reaction towards them. I wish people would look at Jesus' words and actions in the Bible and realize that most Christians are acting completely different than he acted and wanted us to act. He talked kindly of everyone, hung out with everyone, and did not push his beliefs onto others. He just let his actions speak for themselves and showed people what being a Christian is really like. All those extremist Christians need to stop and read the Bible, especially Jesus' words, and try to imitate how he acted. If people did that, there would be so much more peace between all the groups of people.
It's kind of taken for granted that there's an "I believe" in front of everyone's statements. Who else's opinion would they be spouting? (Except when they're playing Devil's Advocate.) But does somebody simply saying "God doesn't exist" actually offend you??
It doesn't offend me really, but it annoys me that people can be so arrogant. They can at least show some kind of indication that they could be wrong.
I'm just trying to say that it annoys me when people post on a debate thread with absolutely no intention of having their opinions swayed and assuming that everything they believe is right.
Itsa human requirement to believe in something greater than oneself even if that thing is sheer dumb luck.
The problem is that in most of my dealings with Christians I meet the stereotypes. Like on time in a class I mentioned Hermeticism and used the wiki to show someone what it was. The girl sitting next to me literally told me, "Oh my God, you believe you that crap, let me help you find Christ." I was so mad I wanted the reach over and squeeze the life out her with my bare hands and watch as the light die in her eyes. From then on every week for the next 14 weeks (the class was 4 hours long) she would preach to me in order to convert me. And that is not a singular occurrence. My non-Christian friends call "an open-minded Christian" an oxymoron.
The biggest problem is that, those stereotypical kind are so easy to find and out there so I can't help but run into them. Meanwhile the open minded variety seems rare and hard to find, be a lot better if you guys got out more, so that when non-Christians think of Christians we think of you and not, the girl I called The Missionary instead of her name.
Oh in case you are wondering about the outcome, she eventually saw I knew more about the Bible and her religion than she did and I pointed out verses and things she had no answer to and thus decided to ignore me.:D
If you live in the US, im surprised you even think your being persecuted or oppressed. How many sermons and dirty looks do I get all the time when I tell someone I'm an atheist? There really arn't that many atheists... Last I checked, I do believe its somewhere around 20% of the US. Your definatley not in the minority, and last I checked, majorities rarely get oppressed and persecuted to any great extent.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
Psychology. Every human believes in something greater than himself in some way. Rather itsa one Diety or a few hundred, fate or simply luck. There is something or someone else besides that person who (of that) can exert control over their life beyond their own. How many atheist magic players pray they draw a land, if not God what higher power are they asking to rearrange their deck? There is always something or someone else.
In light of Dr. Dee's post, it seems to me that you're not exactly asking "is it rough being religious?" but "is it rough being accommodating?" It's not simply rough being religious (see Tha Gunslinga's post on the first page).
Psychology. Every human believes in something greater than himself in some way. Rather itsa one Diety or a few hundred, fate or simply luck. There is something or someone else besides that person who (of that) can exert control over their life beyond their own. How many atheist magic players pray they draw a land, if not God what higher power are they asking to rearrange their deck? There is always something or someone else.
By "luck", you mean "chance"? If so, what about it? (I don't particularly like the phrasing you used, that one "believes in" chance.)
From my experience as an atheistic zealot (though that may be quite the strong word), I would say that prejudice begets prejudice. So long as you don't start a war, there will be no war fought against you. If you don't start a thread on the forums that is all about how god is infallible, then no atheists will try to strike you down and make you look like an idiot. The same goes for anti-creationist or anti-god threads, I.E. the one attempting to disprove god right now.
Congratulations on being able to feel religious without haranguing us with a religious rhetoric, but everyone (EVERYONE) needs to cool it about religion. If it isn't brought up, then there is no problem.
So no, I don't think that it's rough being religious. It's rough being a missionary. Or a Boondock Saint.
I'd like to start out by saying I'm an Atheist (for lack of a better term). I was raised in a liberal christian family in the southern United States. My belief is in the tangeble and scientific, and I am at odds with about 90% of my constituants. And finally I have made mormon missionaries cry and doubt their beliefs. I don't go out of my way to convert others and/or break their belief structor, and most of the time they had it coming. If I affend someone it is really not my intention and I am truely sorry.
Phew...
Glad thats out of the way.
Z: I applaud your stance on christianity. Its people like you that makes the US liveable. The Church has been lying and cheating people out of there money for thousands of years. They have strayed from the very system of morals they sell to millions and I'm sick of it. I don't doubt that someone named Jesus probably lived 2000 years ago, and there is no proof against (or for) the existance of God, but the evangilist have to ruin it for all of the actual christians. And most people can't tell the differrence. Take it from me, some one who tryed to make religion work, but had it ruined.
Rant over!
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Thanks to Zaph and spiderboy4 at High~Light Studios for the kick ass sig and amazing avvy.
I'm a liberal thinker. I really can't say that I'm a Christian since I don't believe that He is the only way to salvation. Jesus, to me, is like a moral teacher. Much like most spiritual leaders who've ever walked this world. That's why I'm pissed at people who say they're right, when they themselves have no right to say so since everyone has their own opinion. That's a reason why I hate those people who keep on persisting others to convert.
Let my start by saying that i practice the Bahá'í faith. Its teachings are that the founders of each religion are divinely inspired beings, that each religion is but a single path to God, but not THE path. It teaches that each individual, regardless of sex, creed, religion or race, are all equal and that the world will only reach peace and will only reach a utopian state once the people of the world realize this.
Now, i wasnt indoctrinated into this, i learned of this faith through many years of reading and looking. I found that it agree'd with my beliefs about God, religions, and races. It also matches my beliefs that science should be held at the zenith of human development. God was there at the start, and watches us day to day, but its up to us to develop further.
To me, no religion is the RIGHT religion, and no religion is the WRONG religion. Each person is entitled to their beliefs, as whatever method draws them into God's light is the correct one.
And generally, i find that a fair bit of those who call themselves Liberal Christians don't quite believe the bible word for word. Don't believe that Christ is the One path to God, and that he was God's Flesh and blood son. I was one of those, i believed that Christ was the son of god, much as we all are. I don't believe that Christ is God incarnated in the form of a human.
And you'd be amazed how often my beliefs get insulted because of that primarily by Christians. I've heard comments ranging from "thats retarded" to a stubborn insistence that Christ was God incarnate that to believe anything else or follow any other path is a path to damnation. And with less then 10 million followers of Bahá'í in the entire world, i can say quite legitimately that i am persecuted and prejudiced against.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
I feel betrayed by God. Being a catholic who wasn't baptised but forced to go to church when I was younger disenfranchised me.
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Seeing the people I love suffer and suffering through heart disease, a painful growth plate defect, and a debilitating shoulder injury that took away my ability to pitch effectively has made me bitter. I'm tired of seeing first hand how crappy the world can be to people, I'm sick and tired of God "testing" my faith. I think I've pretty much failed the test by now, I've given up on it.
In reference to the first part, I can relate entirely. I "began" Catholic in a Catholic family (not being baptized) and was forced to go to church. I played sick sometimes so that I wouldn't have to, I hated it so much, but as kid who craves excitement and thrill, that should be expected. What really sickened me about it was just how loose they were in their faith. They would sin constantly and overlook the fact and be like "Oh, God's cool with it." or they would go out of their way to do a good deed and be like "There, I'm sure Jesus saw that so now I'm good for the year." No lie. One good deed for the year.
I'm sorry that I can't relate to the second part as well, in order to hopefully get through to you more, but I can agree that I hate how everyone puts everything bad as "God's fault" and as "God testing your faith."
If you'd allow me to express my own beliefs for just a moment, God tests your faith every Sunday when he asks you to honor the sabbath and keep it holy, and tests your faith every time you sin- waiting for your prayers of forgiveness. I'm not saying Satan caused what you go through either, because I believe that Satan causes only the most sinister and most grand-scaled of evils; the unhealthy increase in materialism, the gradual decrease in moral concern, and so on- not individual matters. No, I think what causes our day-to-day problems, even on a national scale, is perhaps the secular perspective; it's just the working of the world. A hurricane ravages New Orleans. Obesity is on the rise, influenza is vaccinated. One man dies, another man lives. If you could imagine the world as a giant K'nex rollercoaster or theme park, just constantly functioning on its own, that's how I see the world, as its own entity.
Of course, God created it, so.. you can blame him by relation, but why not praise him as well? *shrug*
I admit it's cliche to say what I said, but it's what I believe. And I believe that there is no right religion... there is no wrong religion... I know you're bothered by it, sorry about that but I just had to say it because I believe in it.
I'm actually not bothered by that, it's understandable.
Myself I have left my church. And I get people jumping on me for being a back slider. I get other church goers telling me to join theirs since they think there must be something wrong with my previous church. But the thing is this. I did'nt find anything wrong with my previous church. I think they are doing a great job, but there are somethings that I disagree with and so I left.
I know my God is still with me And to me I only hold two things dear, "God is Good" and "God is love". The rest I take it with a pinch of salt nowadays as really everyone has their own opinion and seriously, at the end I account to God and God alone.
Exactly, God asks you to honor the sabbath and keep it holy. A church is an excellent place to hopefully fulfill that requirement for many people all at once, but nothing is keeping you from worshipping within your own home, to my knowledge (feel free to show me a bible passage).
It's kind of taken for granted that there's an "I believe" in front of everyone's statements. Who else's opinion would they be spouting? (Except when they're playing Devil's Advocate.)
I understand where you're coming from with this, but saying "I believe God exists" is different from saying "God exists." One seems to be proclaiming it at indisputable fact, while the other is like saying "For me, God exists. Maybe not to you, but..." I never knew it was bad debate etiquette though, I'm glad that was brought to my attention.
If you live in the US, im surprised you even think your being persecuted or oppressed. How many sermons and dirty looks do I get all the time when I tell someone I'm an atheist? There really arn't that many atheists... Last I checked, I do believe its somewhere around 20% of the US. Your definatley not in the minority, and last I checked, majorities rarely get oppressed and persecuted to any great extent.
I'm talking mostly about online rather than in real life. Most people I'm in contact with nowadays (not so much in High School, as I said) believe in God or some sort of higher power.
Exactly, God asks you to honor the sabbath and keep it holy. A church is an excellent place to hopefully fulfill that requirement for many people all at once, but nothing is keeping you from worshipping within your own home, to my knowledge (feel free to show me a bible passage).
Actually, if i remember right, a church was supposed to counted as "Whenever people gather together to worship God." if i remember my bible right. That is why church attendee's are called a Congregation, for thats what it was originally. God is found in the people around you, not in brick or mortar.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
I have certain prejudices against Christians I've struggled to remove from myself, but it's just hard to forget my negative (e.g. suicidal depression and anger) experience as a child in the Catholic system.
Essentially, I don't mind what religion someone practices. It's the acts themselves I judge.
The part where that line may not exist is when it comes to this twofold piece: acting as though there were some higher power who can make things right, and the bit about not judging people (because "that's for God to do").
It does put me off-balance to hear someone say he "doesn't judge" others. That just... I don't know what that means. And so I guess it's just that 'fear of the unknown' thing. But I think it's an aversion with its own rationality.
And, it does kind of scare me when I learn someone believes there's a higher power, because... I wonder what... well, 'things' (general term), exactly, that person could rationalize or justify. How much will he let God be responsible for? Does he think God will fix others' mistakes; will He do this only for 'good' people?
That didn't come out very articulately, but what I'm trying to say is this: I think my self-preservation instinct tells me to fear religious thinking. And I'm not ready to just tell myself it's an unfounded response.
Ideally, I want to be fallibilist, right, and intellectually honest as far as the debate goes. But, I think I'll be afraid of religion, religious thought, and religious people, for as long as the debate is unresolved.
Maybe other people are like me, and that can explain some of how "religous people have it rough." That's all I can say.
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Epic banner by Erasmus of æтђєг.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Regarding earlier posts about christians that are assumed to be evangelicals:
IIRC, 2 in 5 people in the US claim to be evangelical christians; plus they are much more vocal in the media than non-fundamentalist christians. This leads to the word "christian" being associated with evangelicals...
For the record, I'm a member of the "atheist majority" here at MTGS.
Ergh, being a Christian sucks. On one hand, you have the fundies who'll call you an assbandit babykiller if you don't take the entire Bible literally and vote straight Republican, and on the other you have the well-meaning but confused atheists and non-Christians who mistake you for a fundy who is going to call them assbandit babykillers for not being a Christian and not voting straight Republican. Look, I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, and I feel that's what Jesus would have wanted: love and tolerance and freedom for all the human race. There are too many people, however, who are missing that message.
In reference to the first part, I can relate entirely. I "began" Catholic in a Catholic family (not being baptized) and was forced to go to church. I played sick sometimes so that I wouldn't have to, I hated it so much, but as kid who craves excitement and thrill, that should be expected. What really sickened me about it was just how loose they were in their faith. They would sin constantly and overlook the fact and be like "Oh, God's cool with it." or they would go out of their way to do a good deed and be like "There, I'm sure Jesus saw that so now I'm good for the year." No lie. One good deed for the year.
Thats a large problem with organized religion, you shouldn't give money to charity because you can tell your pastor about it or feel that someone/thing above you loves you more, you should do it because its a good thing to do and people need your help.
Organized religions tend to mess with the reasons people do things as well as the things people do (evangelizing, etc...)
Religions also seem want to control. You cannot tell me that Christians do not evangelize, you might not regularly or passionately, but have you ever given aid at the price of a service in your church, or traveled to the third world and spent as much time talking up your church as you did helping the locals. Separation of Church and State is something humans have fought for for generations, the founding fathers believed in it. But we still don't have it. Religion was in state when stem cell research was banned and diseases went un-cured. Religion was in state when the European Jews burned...
Now I know your going to say that that wasn't you; that you don't believe in those things-But its not religion we're talking about, we're talking about ORGANIZED religion. Religion that wants to grow, expand its power, influence, assets, and customers; religion that is very similar to a large corporation. This is what most of the people on the internet that say they are athiests are thinking and I'm among them. We don't hate God, we hate the people that THINK they are doing God's bidding on earth, people like Dubya, the pastor from Jesus Camp, etc...
My message is thus (abd note I was born into a very loose Lutheran family(I left the church at around 11-12 years old), baptized as a baby(another VERY large problem I have with organized religion, that children are born in and taught what to hate at a young impresionable age. I have full respect for someone that went to the church on their own and does not try to extend its rule(lets face it Christianity WANTS to control the world and basically does)))Anyway, if you love God, and can love someone that doesn't, then you should feel welcome here, and anywhere else. If that is true about you, I'm sorry someone here attacked you.
Okay I'm going to start by saying that I only got through the first page before I became pissed enough that I had to post. Secondly all atheists, buddhists, and otherwise non-Christians can for the most part ignore this post. If you fall under the category of one who calls himself a Christian then please I implore you to continue. (Also note this isn't meant to spark a huge debate but I felt it better to post rather than PM it to 30 people, also note this will be my only post on the thread.)
Now I'm a conservative narrow-minded Christian; that being said I do not vote straight Republican just because all Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" nor do I think they are, some of their ideas profess a like-minded mentality but it doesn't mean all of them are gay and want to have abortions.
Specficially to void_nothing
Jesus would have wanted love and tolerance for all people but that is different from what you are trying to profess. I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
Lev 18:22. Straight from the horses mouth bro. He straight up tells you not to do it. If you want to argue difference between God and Jesus go right ahead
John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Also in the New Testament Paul (speaking to the church at Corinth) talks about sexual immorality in the context of the Levitical law
MOREOVER, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 1Cr 10:2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1Cr 10:3 all ate the same spiritual food, 1Cr 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1Cr 10:5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 1Cr 10:6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1Cr 10:7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."[fn1] 1Cr 10:8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
God is very blatantly anti-homsexuality. Yes you are supposed to love the person but the action is supposed to be condemned. God himself burned Sodom and Gommorrah did he not? Where does the word sodomy come from? Take a guess. So in that we are also called to be anti-homsexual. So if you are going to not only approve of homosexuality but condone it. You might consider that tag you stuck on yourself, and you might want to change it.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Okay I'm going to start by saying that I only got through the first page before I became pissed enough that I had to post. Secondly all atheists, buddhists, and otherwise non-Christians can for the most part ignore this post. If you fall under the category of one who calls himself a Christian then please I implore you to continue. (Also note this isn't meant to spark a huge debate but I felt it better to post rather than PM it to 30 people, also note this will be my only post on the thread.)
Now I'm a conservative narrow-minded Christian; that being said I do not vote straight Republican just because all Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" nor do I think they are, some of their ideas profess a like-minded mentality but it doesn't mean all of them are gay and want to have abortions.
Specficially to void_nothing
Jesus would have wanted love and tolerance for all people but that is different from what you are trying to profess. I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
Lev 18:22. Straight from the horses mouth bro. He straight up tells you not to do it. If you want to argue difference between God and Jesus go right ahead
John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Also in the New Testament Paul (speaking to the church at Corinth) talks about sexual immorality in the context of the Levitical law
MOREOVER, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 1Cr 10:2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1Cr 10:3 all ate the same spiritual food, 1Cr 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1Cr 10:5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 1Cr 10:6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1Cr 10:7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."[fn1] 1Cr 10:8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
God is very blatantly anti-homsexuality. Yes you are supposed to love the person but the action is supposed to be condemned. God himself burned Sodom and Gommorrah did he not? Where does the word sodomy come from? Take a guess. So in that we are also called to be anti-homsexual. So if you are going to not only approve of homosexuality but condone it. You might consider that tag you stuck on yourself, and you might want to change it.
If you are going to HATE a whole class of people because a book tells you to, be my guest, but don't expect to be respected. You can't make a post like that and not be included in the view of Christians as hateful bigots, not all are but you are.
To the original thread starter, if your getting crap for being Christian, its because many Christians are the way _ suggests
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Formerly known as steve-o
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
Okay I'm going to start by saying that I only got through the first page before I became pissed enough that I had to post. Secondly all atheists, buddhists, and otherwise non-Christians can for the most part ignore this post. If you fall under the category of one who calls himself a Christian then please I implore you to continue. (Also note this isn't meant to spark a huge debate but I felt it better to post rather than PM it to 30 people, also note this will be my only post on the thread.)
Now I'm a conservative narrow-minded Christian; that being said I do not vote straight Republican just because all Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" nor do I think they are, some of their ideas profess a like-minded mentality but it doesn't mean all of them are gay and want to have abortions.
Specficially to void_nothing
Jesus would have wanted love and tolerance for all people but that is different from what you are trying to profess. I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
Lev 18:22. Straight from the horses mouth bro. He straight up tells you not to do it. If you want to argue difference between God and Jesus go right ahead
John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Also in the New Testament Paul (speaking to the church at Corinth) talks about sexual immorality in the context of the Levitical law
MOREOVER, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 1Cr 10:2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1Cr 10:3 all ate the same spiritual food, 1Cr 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1Cr 10:5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 1Cr 10:6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 1Cr 10:7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."[fn1] 1Cr 10:8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
God is very blatantly anti-homsexuality. Yes you are supposed to love the person but the action is supposed to be condemned. God himself burned Sodom and Gommorrah did he not? Where does the word sodomy come from? Take a guess. So in that we are also called to be anti-homsexual. So if you are going to not only approve of homosexuality but condone it. You might consider that tag you stuck on yourself, and you might want to change it.
All this is of course true, after centuries of the book being edited by different cultures and a few less then perfect translations. Also the Bible doesn't state precisely what the people in Sodom were doing just something wicked, the word was then used to describe a certain action. God is not blatant anything if he were there would be no need for debate. Do not label a book ran off a printing press as being God. Those are two separate things. Out of curiosity, are you (like God) also blatantly anti Red Lobster? After all we shalt not eat anything out of the sea that has neither fins nor scales.
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I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
And this is what garners much respect for your beliefs imho. The negative image of the Christian right pisses many people off, and rightfully so. A more liberal approach to Christianity is very positive and a huge step forward. Though it may be hard, don't get discouraged. Anyone that gives you a hard time by labeling you is guilty of the same things that many far right Christians are, ironically. As a liberal Christian, you are an asset to the faith.
That said, I probably won't be shedding tears for the deeply oppressed Christians in America. Last I checked, you had a very healthy majority, so even if you have to suffer critics painting your whole religion as being just like your extremists, you still hold a lot of sway in your own right.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
And so to believe in, and devote yourself to, and act upon a faith that there is justice in the universe, that there is a power that is concerned with humanity and our well-being amidst all the wrong that is going on shows, to me, an incredible amount of courage.
Regarding anti-religious bigotry: I think it's just easier to tear something down than to actually establish a belief in something. I would give it no heed.
What truth is that? There are many religions that have contradicting tenets [in fact, because they have different tenets, they are called different religions in the first place], and even on the central point of theism, Buddhists are atheistic. And if you're saying that all religions have a bit of truth in each of them (eg. "you should be charitable like Jesus"), then you would be believing in a certain philosophy, and you'd have to come by in some way, and what way is that?
Really? Why shouldn't I dislike those people? Does it matter that there is no 100% proof [for anything but the most logical of statements]? I dislike, for example, intelligent design proponents or "alternative" medicine types for that reason. There are many people that wouldn't be convinced with mountains of evidence to give up certain beliefs. I see that as a glaring flaw, and certainly one that I should dislike people for.
I might use another word, but that's neither here nor there
See, the thing that makes me mad is not when people express beliefs that are very different than mine. When that happens, I try to respectfully explain why I disagree with those beliefs and say what I believe, but I don't push people (at least I hope not) into believing what I do. I hope that people listen to me and consider my viewpoints, because if there is anything I really don't like, it is a closed mind that will not change no matter what it hears.
What really bothers me on this site is when people assume that everything they believe is perfectly right and that everyone else who doesn't believe what they do is ignorant and dumb. I've seen people go into threads about religion and start out by saying "There is no God". Not "I believe that there is no God" or "I don't think there is a higher power" but just "God doesn't exist". People have to learn to at least acknowledge not only the beliefs but the feelings of others. I know this is an internet forum, but politeness is still important, and makes for a much better debate. The only way that atheists and theists can understand each other is by acting polite and kindly to each other and not only listening, but considering, the points of the other group.
It makes me sad that Christians are viewed in such a negative light these days, and that so many Christians act in a way that creates such a negative reaction towards them. I wish people would look at Jesus' words and actions in the Bible and realize that most Christians are acting completely different than he acted and wanted us to act. He talked kindly of everyone, hung out with everyone, and did not push his beliefs onto others. He just let his actions speak for themselves and showed people what being a Christian is really like. All those extremist Christians need to stop and read the Bible, especially Jesus' words, and try to imitate how he acted. If people did that, there would be so much more peace between all the groups of people.
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I'm just trying to say that it annoys me when people post on a debate thread with absolutely no intention of having their opinions swayed and assuming that everything they believe is right.
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
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The problem is that in most of my dealings with Christians I meet the stereotypes. Like on time in a class I mentioned Hermeticism and used the wiki to show someone what it was. The girl sitting next to me literally told me, "Oh my God, you believe you that crap, let me help you find Christ." I was so mad I wanted the reach over and squeeze the life out her with my bare hands and watch as the light die in her eyes. From then on every week for the next 14 weeks (the class was 4 hours long) she would preach to me in order to convert me. And that is not a singular occurrence. My non-Christian friends call "an open-minded Christian" an oxymoron.
The biggest problem is that, those stereotypical kind are so easy to find and out there so I can't help but run into them. Meanwhile the open minded variety seems rare and hard to find, be a lot better if you guys got out more, so that when non-Christians think of Christians we think of you and not, the girl I called The Missionary instead of her name.
Oh in case you are wondering about the outcome, she eventually saw I knew more about the Bible and her religion than she did and I pointed out verses and things she had no answer to and thus decided to ignore me.:D
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
What do you mean?
Psychology. Every human believes in something greater than himself in some way. Rather itsa one Diety or a few hundred, fate or simply luck. There is something or someone else besides that person who (of that) can exert control over their life beyond their own. How many atheist magic players pray they draw a land, if not God what higher power are they asking to rearrange their deck? There is always something or someone else.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
By "luck", you mean "chance"? If so, what about it? (I don't particularly like the phrasing you used, that one "believes in" chance.)
Congratulations on being able to feel religious without haranguing us with a religious rhetoric, but everyone (EVERYONE) needs to cool it about religion. If it isn't brought up, then there is no problem.
So no, I don't think that it's rough being religious. It's rough being a missionary. Or a Boondock Saint.
Phew...
Glad thats out of the way.
Z: I applaud your stance on christianity. Its people like you that makes the US liveable. The Church has been lying and cheating people out of there money for thousands of years. They have strayed from the very system of morals they sell to millions and I'm sick of it. I don't doubt that someone named Jesus probably lived 2000 years ago, and there is no proof against (or for) the existance of God, but the evangilist have to ruin it for all of the actual christians. And most people can't tell the differrence. Take it from me, some one who tryed to make religion work, but had it ruined.
Rant over!
Let my start by saying that i practice the Bahá'í faith. Its teachings are that the founders of each religion are divinely inspired beings, that each religion is but a single path to God, but not THE path. It teaches that each individual, regardless of sex, creed, religion or race, are all equal and that the world will only reach peace and will only reach a utopian state once the people of the world realize this.
Now, i wasnt indoctrinated into this, i learned of this faith through many years of reading and looking. I found that it agree'd with my beliefs about God, religions, and races. It also matches my beliefs that science should be held at the zenith of human development. God was there at the start, and watches us day to day, but its up to us to develop further.
To me, no religion is the RIGHT religion, and no religion is the WRONG religion. Each person is entitled to their beliefs, as whatever method draws them into God's light is the correct one.
And generally, i find that a fair bit of those who call themselves Liberal Christians don't quite believe the bible word for word. Don't believe that Christ is the One path to God, and that he was God's Flesh and blood son. I was one of those, i believed that Christ was the son of god, much as we all are. I don't believe that Christ is God incarnated in the form of a human.
And you'd be amazed how often my beliefs get insulted because of that primarily by Christians. I've heard comments ranging from "thats retarded" to a stubborn insistence that Christ was God incarnate that to believe anything else or follow any other path is a path to damnation. And with less then 10 million followers of Bahá'í in the entire world, i can say quite legitimately that i am persecuted and prejudiced against.
In reference to the first part, I can relate entirely. I "began" Catholic in a Catholic family (not being baptized) and was forced to go to church. I played sick sometimes so that I wouldn't have to, I hated it so much, but as kid who craves excitement and thrill, that should be expected. What really sickened me about it was just how loose they were in their faith. They would sin constantly and overlook the fact and be like "Oh, God's cool with it." or they would go out of their way to do a good deed and be like "There, I'm sure Jesus saw that so now I'm good for the year." No lie. One good deed for the year.
I'm sorry that I can't relate to the second part as well, in order to hopefully get through to you more, but I can agree that I hate how everyone puts everything bad as "God's fault" and as "God testing your faith."
If you'd allow me to express my own beliefs for just a moment, God tests your faith every Sunday when he asks you to honor the sabbath and keep it holy, and tests your faith every time you sin- waiting for your prayers of forgiveness. I'm not saying Satan caused what you go through either, because I believe that Satan causes only the most sinister and most grand-scaled of evils; the unhealthy increase in materialism, the gradual decrease in moral concern, and so on- not individual matters. No, I think what causes our day-to-day problems, even on a national scale, is perhaps the secular perspective; it's just the working of the world. A hurricane ravages New Orleans. Obesity is on the rise, influenza is vaccinated. One man dies, another man lives. If you could imagine the world as a giant K'nex rollercoaster or theme park, just constantly functioning on its own, that's how I see the world, as its own entity.
Of course, God created it, so.. you can blame him by relation, but why not praise him as well? *shrug*
I'm actually not bothered by that, it's understandable.
Exactly, God asks you to honor the sabbath and keep it holy. A church is an excellent place to hopefully fulfill that requirement for many people all at once, but nothing is keeping you from worshipping within your own home, to my knowledge (feel free to show me a bible passage).
I understand where you're coming from with this, but saying "I believe God exists" is different from saying "God exists." One seems to be proclaiming it at indisputable fact, while the other is like saying "For me, God exists. Maybe not to you, but..." I never knew it was bad debate etiquette though, I'm glad that was brought to my attention.
I'm talking mostly about online rather than in real life. Most people I'm in contact with nowadays (not so much in High School, as I said) believe in God or some sort of higher power.
As Einstein Monkey said, there are no topics too sacred for debate.
Actually, if i remember right, a church was supposed to counted as "Whenever people gather together to worship God." if i remember my bible right. That is why church attendee's are called a Congregation, for thats what it was originally. God is found in the people around you, not in brick or mortar.
Essentially, I don't mind what religion someone practices. It's the acts themselves I judge.
The part where that line may not exist is when it comes to this twofold piece: acting as though there were some higher power who can make things right, and the bit about not judging people (because "that's for God to do").
It does put me off-balance to hear someone say he "doesn't judge" others. That just... I don't know what that means. And so I guess it's just that 'fear of the unknown' thing. But I think it's an aversion with its own rationality.
And, it does kind of scare me when I learn someone believes there's a higher power, because... I wonder what... well, 'things' (general term), exactly, that person could rationalize or justify. How much will he let God be responsible for? Does he think God will fix others' mistakes; will He do this only for 'good' people?
That didn't come out very articulately, but what I'm trying to say is this: I think my self-preservation instinct tells me to fear religious thinking. And I'm not ready to just tell myself it's an unfounded response.
Ideally, I want to be fallibilist, right, and intellectually honest as far as the debate goes. But, I think I'll be afraid of religion, religious thought, and religious people, for as long as the debate is unresolved.
Maybe other people are like me, and that can explain some of how "religous people have it rough." That's all I can say.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
IIRC, 2 in 5 people in the US claim to be evangelical christians; plus they are much more vocal in the media than non-fundamentalist christians. This leads to the word "christian" being associated with evangelicals...
For the record, I'm a member of the "atheist majority" here at MTGS.
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This the best thing ever written on the internet
Thats a large problem with organized religion, you shouldn't give money to charity because you can tell your pastor about it or feel that someone/thing above you loves you more, you should do it because its a good thing to do and people need your help.
Organized religions tend to mess with the reasons people do things as well as the things people do (evangelizing, etc...)
Religions also seem want to control. You cannot tell me that Christians do not evangelize, you might not regularly or passionately, but have you ever given aid at the price of a service in your church, or traveled to the third world and spent as much time talking up your church as you did helping the locals. Separation of Church and State is something humans have fought for for generations, the founding fathers believed in it. But we still don't have it. Religion was in state when stem cell research was banned and diseases went un-cured. Religion was in state when the European Jews burned...
Now I know your going to say that that wasn't you; that you don't believe in those things-But its not religion we're talking about, we're talking about ORGANIZED religion. Religion that wants to grow, expand its power, influence, assets, and customers; religion that is very similar to a large corporation. This is what most of the people on the internet that say they are athiests are thinking and I'm among them. We don't hate God, we hate the people that THINK they are doing God's bidding on earth, people like Dubya, the pastor from Jesus Camp, etc...
My message is thus (abd note I was born into a very loose Lutheran family(I left the church at around 11-12 years old), baptized as a baby(another VERY large problem I have with organized religion, that children are born in and taught what to hate at a young impresionable age. I have full respect for someone that went to the church on their own and does not try to extend its rule(lets face it Christianity WANTS to control the world and basically does)))Anyway, if you love God, and can love someone that doesn't, then you should feel welcome here, and anywhere else. If that is true about you, I'm sorry someone here attacked you.
Doublepost Merged
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
Now I'm a conservative narrow-minded Christian; that being said I do not vote straight Republican just because all Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" nor do I think they are, some of their ideas profess a like-minded mentality but it doesn't mean all of them are gay and want to have abortions.
Specficially to void_nothing
Jesus would have wanted love and tolerance for all people but that is different from what you are trying to profess. I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
Lev 18:22. Straight from the horses mouth bro. He straight up tells you not to do it. If you want to argue difference between God and Jesus go right ahead
John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Also in the New Testament Paul (speaking to the church at Corinth) talks about sexual immorality in the context of the Levitical law
MOREOVER, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
1Cr 10:2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Cr 10:3 all ate the same spiritual food,
1Cr 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
1Cr 10:5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
1Cr 10:6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
1Cr 10:7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."[fn1]
1Cr 10:8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
God is very blatantly anti-homsexuality. Yes you are supposed to love the person but the action is supposed to be condemned. God himself burned Sodom and Gommorrah did he not? Where does the word sodomy come from? Take a guess. So in that we are also called to be anti-homsexual. So if you are going to not only approve of homosexuality but condone it. You might consider that tag you stuck on yourself, and you might want to change it.
If you are going to HATE a whole class of people because a book tells you to, be my guest, but don't expect to be respected. You can't make a post like that and not be included in the view of Christians as hateful bigots, not all are but you are.
To the original thread starter, if your getting crap for being Christian, its because many Christians are the way _ suggests
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
All this is of course true, after centuries of the book being edited by different cultures and a few less then perfect translations. Also the Bible doesn't state precisely what the people in Sodom were doing just something wicked, the word was then used to describe a certain action. God is not blatant anything if he were there would be no need for debate. Do not label a book ran off a printing press as being God. Those are two separate things. Out of curiosity, are you (like God) also blatantly anti Red Lobster? After all we shalt not eat anything out of the sea that has neither fins nor scales.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.