All this is of course true, after centuries of the book being edited by different cultures and a few less then perfect translations. Also the Bible doesn't state precisely what the people in Sodom were doing just something wicked, the word was then used to describe a certain action. God is not blatant anything if he were there would be no need for debate. Do not label a book ran off a printing press as being God. Those are two separate things. Out of curiosity, are you (like God) also blatantly anti Red Lobster? After all we shalt not eat anything out of the sea that has neither fins nor scales.
THANK YOU.
On a side note: is there a term for loving God but hating Organized Religion?
We need one if there isn't
Okay I'm going to start by saying that I only got through the first page before I became pissed enough that I had to post. Secondly all atheists, buddhists, and otherwise non-Christians can for the most part ignore this post. If you fall under the category of one who calls himself a Christian then please I implore you to continue. (Also note this isn't meant to spark a huge debate but I felt it better to post rather than PM it to 30 people, also note this will be my only post on the thread.)
Now I'm a conservative narrow-minded Christian; that being said I do not vote straight Republican just because all Democrats are "***-loving baby-killers" nor do I think they are, some of their ideas profess a like-minded mentality but it doesn't mean all of them are gay and want to have abortions.
Specficially to void_nothing
Jesus would have wanted love and tolerance for all people but that is different from what you are trying to profess. I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions.
God is very blatantly anti-homsexuality. Yes you are supposed to love the person but the action is supposed to be condemned. God himself burned Sodom and Gommorrah did he not? Where does the word sodomy come from? Take a guess. So in that we are also called to be anti-homsexual. So if you are going to not only approve of homosexuality but condone it. You might consider that tag you stuck on yourself, and you might want to change it.
Did you have something pertinent to the topic or were you just trying to illustrate the fact that intolerance for Zyrakris's belief system is not limited to atheists? One does not have to take the Bible to be truth nor attend church to claim faith in Christianity. The book is as fallable as the men who wrote it. Making the assumption that you are correct about God's disdain for homosexuality, I still don't see where you have been called on to be anti-homosexual. You worry about your own sins and leave the other sins to everyone else, M-kay.
Edit: Steve-o, I've always called them "more enlightened Christians."
I know there's more to it
Thats just what anyone (family and peers) have told me when I've talked about being atheist
Mom: Steven why dont you like Christians
Steven: (not wanting to explain lengthily) I don't know I guess I'm athiest)
Parents: WHAT, Athiests hate God, you don't hate God do you!!!!
Yeah being religious is pretty tough nowadays, but in my opinion being semi-religious is even tougher. I am Jewish, but I do not go to synagogue every weekend, nor am I currently keeping kosher. A lot of my friends are staunchly conservative vote-the-ticket Roman Catholic Republicans. We do not talk about religion at all anymore, because the idea of not going to services every weekend is even more offensive then my not being Christian is (Not that they have a problem with me being Jewish). Even worse then that is that a lot of the people in my area are evangelical Christians. Whenever the topic comes up about my religion I have to deal with a whole long shtick about how Jesus is the way yada yada yada yada going to hell bla bla bla. In a matter of fact, after Passion of the Christ was released, a Jewish kid (not Orthodox, like me) got beat up because as the kid said, "You killed my Lord". I am aware the majority of people are not like that but still that type of person is damn tough to reason with. In conclusion, yea it really can be tough being religious, but as long as religion does not evolve into completely blind faith Religion's redeeming qualities will always outweigh the negatives.
Yeah being religious is pretty tough nowadays, but in my opinion being semi-religious is even tougher. I am Jewish, but I do not go to synagogue every weekend, nor am I currently keeping kosher. A lot of my friends are staunchly conservative vote-the-ticket Roman Catholic Republicans. We do not talk about religion at all anymore, because the idea of not going to services every weekend is even more offensive then my not being Christian is (Not that they have a problem with me being Jewish). Even worse then that is that a lot of the people in my area are evangelical Christians. Whenever the topic comes up about my religion I have to deal with a whole long shtick about how Jesus is the way yada yada yada yada going to hell bla bla bla. In a matter of fact, after Passion of the Christ was released, a Jewish kid (not Orthodox, like me) got beat up because as the kid said, "You killed my Lord". I am aware the majority of people are not like that but still that type of person is damn tough to reason with. In conclusion, yea it really can be tough being religious, but as long as religion does not evolve into completely blind faith Religion's redeeming qualities will always outweigh the negatives.
@ _
things like that beating happen coz of ppl that act like ur post suggests against homosexuals
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Formerly known as steve-o
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
Itsa human requirement to believe in something greater than oneself even if that thing is sheer dumb luck.
Agreement with qualification. I believe it is a human requirement to acknowledge the fact that we do not have complete agency over the universe. I think much of life is reconciling with this fact.
Let my start by saying that i practice the Bahá'í faith. Its teachings are that the founders of each religion are divinely inspired beings, that each religion is but a single path to God, but not THE path. It teaches that each individual, regardless of sex, creed, religion or race, are all equal and that the world will only reach peace and will only reach a utopian state once the people of the world realize this.
1. Do you mean every CURRENT, commonly practiced faith, or every faith in the history of time?
2. If so, what about Scientology, a religion clearly made up for the purposes of deceiving people to elevate a man to a false prophet, or other countless religions like this?
3. You believe the ideal state is to state that all religions are equal? Do you then say that there is a particular direction people should go towards, or that all directions are TOTALLY equal? What I mean is, do you advocate religious tolerance, or the few that all religions are equally correct?
4. Christianity specifically states that certain acts are sins and certain acts sacred. As does Islam. Buddhism. Hinduism. Pretty much every religion ever. Many overlap, many contradict. What is your response to this?
5. My religion states that human sacrifice is necessary. Another believes that to take ANY life is a crime. What then?
6. My religion believes in reincarnation. Another believes that nothing comes after death. What does your religion say about this?
I am a Christian, yet I partially agree with StormBlind's religion. I do not believe that every religion is partially true, nor do I believe that all of the beliefs and customs of all religions are true. I do believe, though, that the God of every religion with a god is the same one. I think almost all religions were inspired by the same divine being, but all interpreted His wishes differently. I think that even though many religions could have possibly misinterpreted God's message, I think all religions are partially close to the truth.
Anyway, sorry about the off-topicness. I don't think I answered the main question before. I do think that it is rough being religious, but I think that religion in general is an extremely rough subject. When it comes to religion, everyone has it rough. I think we all need to work at making religion less rough, and trying to create compromises and peace between atheists, theists, and everyone else.
Out of curiosity, are you (like God) also blatantly anti Red Lobster? After all we shalt not eat anything out of the sea that has neither fins nor scales.
We could go into some of the other insane things that Leviticus says, but I think that's a pretty good example.
NOTE: In my Wiki research, I came across the International Creed for Peace. Seems like a cool idea, sort of ties into the thread.
No, it just means that you should realize that you will never convince people of anything. Even in the face of irrefutable proof (which does not exist), a large part of the population would not change their beliefs. It also means that you should not dislike these people or consider them an "enemy".
You have a solid point there, but I think it's also true that this isn't what is often meant when it is said "we'll agree to disagree."
Quote from Soul Grind »
I feel betrayed by God. Being a catholic who wasn't baptised but forced to go to church when I was younger disenfranchised me. Seeing the people I love suffer and suffering through heart disease, a painful growth plate defect, and a debilitating shoulder injury that took away my ability to pitch effectively has made me bitter. I'm tired of seeing first hand how crappy the world can be to people, I'm sick and tired of God "testing" my faith. I think I've pretty much failed the test by now, I've given up on it.
I get that. It's frustrating beyond belief to keep trying and believe in this supposedly beneficent force when it just seems like the opposite.
Much of that amounts to how we view life. I feel like I've definitely had my share of hardships, if not more, as I'm sure you have.
But life has a value to it that we see when we can be in the right mindset.
@No religion is right or wrong: I believe this is true . . . in a sense. Currently, I don't think there is any religion that can be appropriately called the one and only true religion that everyone should follow. However, I think most religions have a certain truthfulness. There are those such as Satanism that have a basis in truths but distort them or don't apply them in a desirable way, and those such as Scientology that are mind control tools, through and through. But most widely practiced religions share at least a partial basis in observations, needs, desires, and ideals that are meritous. So I don't believe there is a completely right religion, and that there are relatively few completely wrong religions.
I think that when most people say "there is no right or wrong religion" they mean that what defines a person's ultimate moral rightness or wrongness isn't determined by the religion they practice so much as what that religion means in that person's life. In other words, that there must be something more essential that underlies religion.
Quote from {mikeyG} »
That said, I probably won't be shedding tears for the deeply oppressed Christians in America. Last I checked, you had a very healthy majority, so even if you have to suffer critics painting your whole religion as being just like your extremists, you still hold a lot of sway in your own right.
True enough. In North American, Christians are hardly in danger of being oppressed. Though on the internet, Christians are frequently met with some degree of prejudice.
Quote from Einsteinmonkey »
As far as I know, it's not usually considered good form to say things like "I believe" or "I think" when debating.
Really?
Man, I do that all the time.
Quote from Zyrakis »
I understand where you're coming from with this, but saying "I believe God exists" is different from saying "God exists." One seems to be proclaiming it at indisputable fact, while the other is like saying "For me, God exists. Maybe not to you, but..." I never knew it was bad debate etiquette though, I'm glad that was brought to my attention.
I guess it depends on what definition you;'re using for "God existing." If it's a phenomenalistic entity, then it's possible for it to be an element of one person's reality and not another's. However, if God is an independent being, had has a reality, then God exists regadless of what anyone believes. And if he doesn't, he doesn't, regardless of what anyone believes.
Quote from Horseshoe_Hermit »
Ideally, I want to be fallibilist, right, and intellectually honest as far as the debate goes. But, I think I'll be afraid of religion, religious thought, and religious people, for as long as the debate is unresolved.
That doesn't sound strange to me.
Jesus would have wanted love and tolerance for all people but that is different from what you are trying to profess. I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
Lev 18:22. Straight from the horses mouth bro. He straight up tells you not to do it. If you want to argue difference between God and Jesus go right ahead
John 1:1,14 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Also in the New Testament Paul (speaking to the church at Corinth) talks about sexual immorality in the context of the Levitical law
Go look at the many dozens of arguments in Debate against heteronormativism and its supposedly Christian coherency. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are amoral, and equally so.
There are also those who aren't against organized religion on principle but don't identify with any particular organized religion.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Not just religious, but specific religions can be quite discriminated against. Now, I don't what other religions suffer from this, and I know that not all people are narrow minded, but I'll use discrimination on my religion. I am a Mormon, more correctly: a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. When I say that, what do you think? Some people instantly think polygamy, yet the LDS church hasn't practiced polygamy in over a hundred years. For whatever reason, people still don't understand that. One of the worst issues that I believe we contend with is the concept that we're not Christian. Now I'll agree that we aren't "Mainstream" Christians, but we believe in Christ and follow his teachings. Doesn't that make us Christians? Again, I'd like to say that I don't usually air grievances like this. I don't feel that most other people of my faith do either. I'm merely bringing this up as an example of how people can make assumptions about you based on your faith (or lack thereof). I don't believe people should automatically categorize you based on whether you're a christian, or an atheist, or a spaghetti monster worshipper. This doesn't mean that I'm perfect and I don't do that, I do. But I try not to and believe others should offer the same courtesy.
I do know how you feel. I'm the only Christian in my family, where everyone is for the most part Buddhist. Many of my friends are for the most part non-Christian (either atheist or of other faiths). People sometimes think that when I became a Christian, I became one of those fundamentalist Christians that try to force God's Word into people's heads. They might judge me or persecute me for my views and my faith. At times, it's frustrating and sometimes, I just want to just lash out at them for how they're stereotyping me.
But I don't.
We shouldn't become discouraged or less loving to those that have questioned, persecute, or attack your faith in God. I mean, there were people all over the place, past and present, that have been persecuted for their faith in Christ. And for those that are not as accepting of your faith, let them be. It doesn't mean that we should ignore them, but just hope and pray for a softened heart and a more opened mind, where maybe they will be more accepting of others' faiths and/or views rather than just attacking anything that doesn't fit their's. I can understand where they come from sometimes because it is often times that other Christians that have put Christianity in such a negative light. Just continue to show respect, listen, and love to those that even persecute you for your views. I mean, that's what Christ did, even to those that went to the extent of nailing him on a cross, right?
As for Christianity is a majority, it isn't so much about how many are oppressed, but who oppresses and persecutes you of your faith. Yes, I may be considered part of the majority of people that believe in Christ, but I still get criticized for being a Christian in my family. It hurts a lot to hear them attacking me of my faith in God. I can't really find relief in that by just hanging out with other Christians and them just telling me, "It's alright." I know that I am not alone on this. There are many Christians all over the U.S. and world that have to deal with this.
And on another point... This might not be of any significance to those that don't believe in the Bible, but I think this is probably some great words that Jesus said and encompasses a lot of what Christianity is about:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)
Yes, there are verses that say that homosexuality was a sin, but does not mean that you should not hate the person because of that. There are numerous passages about what's sinful and what isn't. I mean, Jesus was healing prostitutes, dining with tax collectors and what were considered to be the scum of society at the time. He did not judge people for their background or past. He still loved them regardless and that is what he taught to all his disciples/followers.
But Christianity is more than just rules that one must abide by or just believing that there's a God out there. There's a lot of other assumptions too that are made about Christianity (i.e. you have to be a perfect person, you can't drink, etc.) It's about this notion of having a relationship with God, Christ, and with each other. I think that is what has been lost among the ideas of Christianity, even to those that believe in Christ.
As one person said, Jesus isn't a religion, it's a relationship. It should be extended to those around you as well. Loving relationships to everyone around, even those that are aggressive against you or even your enemies. To those that have been attacked someone for being an atheist or not of the Christian faith is definitely disgusting... at least in my mind. It creates that negative image that I don't think it deserves. Other things that I've noticed that have created a negative image like how people think you're suppose to be perfect. Christians aren't perfect by any means. We sin, it's what makes us human beings. It's what separates us from Christ. It just a shame that it only takes one spoiled apple to ruin the whole barrel.
Christianity isn't about the haterade. It's about giving out the love to everyone out there. Being merciful to those that need mercy. Showing grace to all.
I do know how you feel. I'm the only Christian in my family, where everyone is for the most part Buddhist. Many of my friends are for the most part non-Christian (either atheist or of other faiths). People sometimes think that when I became a Christian, I became one of those fundamentalist Christians that try to force God's Word into people's heads. They might judge me or persecute me for my views and my faith. At times, it's frustrating and sometimes, I just want to just lash out at them for how they're stereotyping me.
But I don't.
We shouldn't become discouraged or less
As for Christianity is a majority, it isn't so much about how many are oppressed, but who oppresses and persecutes you of your faith. Yes, I may be considered part of the majority of people that believe in Christ, but I still get criticized for being a Christian in my family. It hurts a lot to hear them attacking me of my faith in God. I can't really find relief in that by just hanging out with other Christians and them just telling me, "It's alright." I know that I am not alone on this. There are many Christians all over the U.S. and world that have to deal with this.
Argg the charging of reverse discrimination. Your religion has controled humanity for hundreds of years. I understand it has a bad rap, but think of what Christianity has done. [metaphor] Christianitycan be a like a humongous, successful, prosperous club that seems to always help people but "gets all its money from gangsters or has a bad past or whatever" joining gives you goods and bads
And on another point... This might not be of any significance to those that don't believe in the Bible, but I think this is probably some great words that Jesus said and encompasses a lot of what Christianity is about:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)
Yes, there are verses that say that homosexuality was a sin, but does not mean that you should not hate the person because of that. There are numerous passages about what's sinful and what isn't. I mean, Jesus was healing prostitutes, dining with tax collectors and what were considered to be the scum of society at the time. He did not judge people for their background or past. He still loved them regardless and that is what he taught to all his disciples/followers.
THANK! YOU!
Someone has it right, yes yes yes.
You can save the world with messages like that
To those that have been attacked someone for being an atheist or not of the Christian faith is definitely disgusting... at least in my mind. It creates that negative image that I don't think it deserves.
Sadly Christians have and do do that so they kinda deserve that image for doing so
Christianity isn't about the haterade. It's about giving out the love to everyone out there. Being merciful to those that need mercy. Showing grace to all.
Go tell people that! Go tell the kids at Jesus Camp that! Go tell Bush that!
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Formerly known as steve-o
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
it is really easy to be christian. i can't say the same for muslims, however. personally, i feel that we can all practice our religion of choice in private if we don't want to be bothered. the united states is a very perceptable nation. even if the public won't like what you believe, no one will truly investigate your private practices as long as it isn't too extreme.
i do not agree that atheism results in prejudice. an opposition to stem cell research and other scientific progress DOES embody religion. these are the only usages of religious references other than in discussions of evangelism. if you are not using your religion in one of these listed discussions, i don't find why you would need to mention your faith. of course, there might be other subjects i have forgotten to list but i feel most are of the like.
This is my personal view on the issue, however I will tell you right in the outset that I am an Atheist.
It is my personal belief that most people think that they're getting a rough time for practicing what they practice. Though I have never heard of a Christian getting this sort of rough treatment, I don't think it is an impossibility. A lot of that sort of thing stems from ignorance, though. People fear and hate what they don't understand and all of that jazz. Though religious intolerance seems, to me anyways, to be rarely directed at people of a Abrahamic faith at least not as much as it is directed at people of alternative faiths or of secular beliefs or non-religious as a whole.
However, most of the religious (or non-religious) intolerance stems from ignorance. People are raised a certain way and they are set that their way is the only way. There is a large percent of the population that is of a Abrahamic religion, I know of a great number of Christians and such though I could count the Atheist's I know on both hands without my thumbs. And personally, I don't think there is a high level of intolerance against people of Abrahamic religions (except for Muslims).
But this is supposed to be my opinion on the issue at hand which from the first post would be: is being a religious christian rough?
My guess would be that if you're having a hard time with being Christian, it is because of the mainstream religious figures. They present a unique view of Christianity. There view of Christianity is basically a few hodge-podge verses from the bible that sort of breed intolerance towards alternative sexuality, alternative faiths, and other such things that other people find important.
The interesting thing is that I had a discussion about religion the other day with a few people who were Christians and it was rather enlightening. One of the people in the discussion (whose name I do not know) was talking about how when he first became a Christian (and please forgive the paraphrasing and the wording, this is what he said) he used to be an ******* Christian, but then he read the bible and now he will live and let live.
There are a lot of misconceptions (even to those practicing the faith) about what the real beliefs of Christianity are. You seriously can't have one facet saying love thy neighbor while the other facet says 'kill the homos' (sorry about that as well, I don't have any problem with gay people, that was just an example). I think that a lot of the intolerances from other religions is that most of them were raised Christian, and they were raised to dislike the things that they are now, so they turn that back on the Christians in a sort of revenge type thing.
That is my opinion, though it could be totally off.
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Came the last night of sadness
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared
The curtains flew then he appeared...saying don't be afraid
Come on baby...and she had no fear
And she ran to him...then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodby...she had become like they are
She had taken his hand...she had become like they are
Come on baby...don't fear the reaper
I do admit that I see alot of anti-christian talk in these forums, but only on the religious discussions. I think that most of it is dirrected to the far right middle american christian extremists that do all the silly stuff these days, even if the posters don't exactly specify. Unfortunately, these misunderstandings aren't always obvious and they can easily offend.
I also see some Aethist egotism on the forums as well. Not everyone is like this, but I have seen many aethiest who treat everyone who has any sort of faith as "mindless sheep" and that the aethiest are obviously smarter than them because they don't have a faith.
But to take my real life encounters into it, the ones that I dislike most (actually the least common now that I'm out of high school) are the ones that seem to have proclaimed themselves Atheist (others as Satanists or Pagans, again, in high school) for the shock value of it. It's them that I find the most disrespectful, because they seem to be saying "**** God!!" because they just want attention and they want to make you angry. It gives them some value of self-significance.
Grrrrr. Being a pagan (Hail Eris!), I hate seeing people do this sort of thing. We don't hate the church, we just don't agree with it, just the same as how most christians are. They don't hate us, they just don't agree with us. But thats high school kids for ya: let's rebel by conforming! Yay!
I personally see alot of validity in Christianity and borrow many of its ideas into my personal faith. I just don't completely agree with the church itself, what with middle age corruption and what not.
And now for something different:
1. Do you mean every CURRENT, commonly practiced faith, or every faith in the history of time?
I'm not going to list 5-6 because the answer I give is applicable to answer (partly) all of them. And let me say before I get into this that I am not Ba'hai
I am not Ba'hai, but the gist of it is that every spiritual path has some validity to it, and that everyone's spiritual paths differs in some way. The idea is that we need to stop having hang ups about religion, sex, race, etc, start respecting each other, and realize that every religion gives something to someone, and you really shouldn't care that everyone else has different religions. You should learn from them, maybe it will help you on your own path. It's kinda like cherrypicking, not mashing them all up, contradictions and all. Basically, anyone that has this particular faith has a different faith then everyone else in this religion, but they all share a basic ideal (if that makes any sense). It's kinda like unitarianism.
5. My religion states that human sacrifice is necessary. Another believes that to take ANY life is a crime. What then?
While I may have serious moral disagreements with what you do, if that is what you practice, I don't have any RELIGIOUS disagreements to what you do, but that's just me personally. However, I do have MORAL disagreements with what you do, and I would call the police. Technically, especially with broad religions such as this, Religious and Moral beliefs are not the same thing, although they do interact with each other alot.
Remember, the point of the religion is not to have everyone practice the same faith. It is to practice whatever faith works for you, but learning from and respecting what other people believe.
2. If so, what about Scientology, a religion clearly made up for the purposes of deceiving people to elevate a man to a false prophet, or other countless religions like this?
These are cults, not religions.
It's hard to summarize all the ideas of a religion so briefly, but I gave it a shot. Forgive me if I'm incorrect.
However, most of the religious (or non-religious) intolerance stems from ignorance. People are raised a certain way and they are set that their way is the only way.
A big trudat to that. It's a shame, but its true.
Yes, there are verses that say that homosexuality was a sin, but does not mean that you should not hate the person because of that. There are numerous passages about what's sinful and what isn't. I mean, Jesus was healing prostitutes, dining with tax collectors and what were considered to be the scum of society at the time. He did not judge people for their background or past. He still loved them regardless and that is what he taught to all his disciples/followers.
Fantastic and oh so true. Certain people that I have met in the past need to read this paragraph.
God is very blatantly anti-homsexuality. Yes you are supposed to love the person but the action is supposed to be condemned. God himself burned Sodom and Gommorrah did he not? Where does the word sodomy come from? Take a guess. So in that we are also called to be anti-homsexual. So if you are going to not only approve of homosexuality but condone it. You might consider that tag you stuck on yourself, and you might want to change it.
I am supposed to look at the homosexual person and love them but I am told, nigh commanded, to hate their actions
So, I can do two things then. Either:
1. Remain celebate for the rest of my life.
2. Go score some ****ing viagra and get smashed every time I need to "take care of something" so I can actually get aroused in the presence of a woman.
Hmmm.....
I'll end it there, before profane rage takes over.
Many atheists seem to be as radically atheist as the radical Christians they despise and oppose.
Personally, I've had people in my life think less of me for liking football, for liking pro wrestling, for gaming, for not having tried drugs, for not having had sex, and for not having completed college.
With all that stuff, I'd be more surprised if some people didn't think I was a idiot for believing in The Invisible Man Living In The Sky.
Also, the internet tends to be very liberal and aetheists also tend to be liberals so that's a factor too.
Being any religion is often times not easy.
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Sig banner by Xyre. My MTG Blog (inactive)
GDS1 & GDS2 entrant. Former Rules Advisor & casual-level TO. Semi-lapsed player in general.
I think a line needs to be drawn between respect and tolerance. I tolerate all religions. I respect none, since I personally think they are all equally crazy. Respecting something gives it at least some validity to whatever it is you respect. Once can be tolerant of religions and religious people, without respecting their beliefs. Not only that, but truly, nothing is too sacred that it can't be debated. EVERYTHING is up for debate. Once something moves into the realm of "Lets not talk about it" were treading dangerous water.
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Quote from Cochese »
Do threads in this forum ever not get hijacked by the magical invisible hand of the market guys?
I think a line needs to be drawn between respect and tolerance. I tolerate all religions. I respect none, since I personally think they are all equally crazy. Respecting something gives it at least some validity to whatever it is you respect. Once can be tolerant of religions and religious people, without respecting their beliefs. Not only that, but truly, nothing is too sacred that it can't be debated. EVERYTHING is up for debate. Once something moves into the realm of "Lets not talk about it" were treading dangerous water.
That's a very good point. Though this isn't really the thread, I totally agree with the last part. What is the point of having controversy if we can't talk about it?
On another, more related note, I don't understand the comment that was posted about the 'radical atheists'. What exactly is radical atheism, one would wonder. I'm just wondering the reasoning behind that because radical atheism just doesn't seem right at all.
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Came the last night of sadness
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared
The curtains flew then he appeared...saying don't be afraid
Come on baby...and she had no fear
And she ran to him...then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodby...she had become like they are
She had taken his hand...she had become like they are
Come on baby...don't fear the reaper
I do believe in some thing's too sacred for discussion. In discussion, something's bound to get bashed, so out of respect for whatever it is, you don't discuss it.
I do believe in some thing's too sacred for discussion. In discussion, something's bound to get bashed, so out of respect for whatever it is, you don't discuss it.
But in this case, specifically religion, most people don't really respect it as a whole. A lot of people respect their own religions, and thats it. But someone mentioned already, and I'm rehashing it, being tolerant of a religion and respecting a religion is completely different. I can be tolerant and not respect it.
Nothing is sacred enough to *not* discuss, everything is open for debate, it is why we have free speech (in America...) which also goes along with the other part of this subject, Freedom of Religion.
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Came the last night of sadness
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared
The curtains flew then he appeared...saying don't be afraid
Come on baby...and she had no fear
And she ran to him...then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodby...she had become like they are
She had taken his hand...she had become like they are
Come on baby...don't fear the reaper
THANK YOU.
On a side note: is there a term for loving God but hating Organized Religion?
We need one if there isn't
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
Did you have something pertinent to the topic or were you just trying to illustrate the fact that intolerance for Zyrakris's belief system is not limited to atheists? One does not have to take the Bible to be truth nor attend church to claim faith in Christianity. The book is as fallable as the men who wrote it. Making the assumption that you are correct about God's disdain for homosexuality, I still don't see where you have been called on to be anti-homosexual. You worry about your own sins and leave the other sins to everyone else, M-kay.
Edit: Steve-o, I've always called them "more enlightened Christians."
What?
edit: i see.
I know there's more to it
Thats just what anyone (family and peers) have told me when I've talked about being atheist
Ouch, I guess thats just defacement, i feel pwned
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
2) I don't hate christians, even ones like _ who are biggoted against...well, whoever - but I do pity them.
Plus, PS? Try using the new testament, it is the part of the bible your religion is, you know, actually based on.
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@ _
things like that beating happen coz of ppl that act like ur post suggests against homosexuals
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
No, I'm with you. Faith and insanity have always been kindred.
Agreement with qualification. I believe it is a human requirement to acknowledge the fact that we do not have complete agency over the universe. I think much of life is reconciling with this fact.
1. Do you mean every CURRENT, commonly practiced faith, or every faith in the history of time?
2. If so, what about Scientology, a religion clearly made up for the purposes of deceiving people to elevate a man to a false prophet, or other countless religions like this?
3. You believe the ideal state is to state that all religions are equal? Do you then say that there is a particular direction people should go towards, or that all directions are TOTALLY equal? What I mean is, do you advocate religious tolerance, or the few that all religions are equally correct?
4. Christianity specifically states that certain acts are sins and certain acts sacred. As does Islam. Buddhism. Hinduism. Pretty much every religion ever. Many overlap, many contradict. What is your response to this?
5. My religion states that human sacrifice is necessary. Another believes that to take ANY life is a crime. What then?
6. My religion believes in reincarnation. Another believes that nothing comes after death. What does your religion say about this?
Anyway, sorry about the off-topicness. I don't think I answered the main question before. I do think that it is rough being religious, but I think that religion in general is an extremely rough subject. When it comes to religion, everyone has it rough. I think we all need to work at making religion less rough, and trying to create compromises and peace between atheists, theists, and everyone else.
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Deism? Non-religious (mono)theism?
We could go into some of the other insane things that Leviticus says, but I think that's a pretty good example.
NOTE: In my Wiki research, I came across the International Creed for Peace. Seems like a cool idea, sort of ties into the thread.
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I get that. It's frustrating beyond belief to keep trying and believe in this supposedly beneficent force when it just seems like the opposite.
Much of that amounts to how we view life. I feel like I've definitely had my share of hardships, if not more, as I'm sure you have.
But life has a value to it that we see when we can be in the right mindset.
@No religion is right or wrong: I believe this is true . . . in a sense. Currently, I don't think there is any religion that can be appropriately called the one and only true religion that everyone should follow. However, I think most religions have a certain truthfulness. There are those such as Satanism that have a basis in truths but distort them or don't apply them in a desirable way, and those such as Scientology that are mind control tools, through and through. But most widely practiced religions share at least a partial basis in observations, needs, desires, and ideals that are meritous. So I don't believe there is a completely right religion, and that there are relatively few completely wrong religions.
I think that when most people say "there is no right or wrong religion" they mean that what defines a person's ultimate moral rightness or wrongness isn't determined by the religion they practice so much as what that religion means in that person's life. In other words, that there must be something more essential that underlies religion.
True enough. In North American, Christians are hardly in danger of being oppressed. Though on the internet, Christians are frequently met with some degree of prejudice.
Really?
Man, I do that all the time.
I guess it depends on what definition you;'re using for "God existing." If it's a phenomenalistic entity, then it's possible for it to be an element of one person's reality and not another's. However, if God is an independent being, had has a reality, then God exists regadless of what anyone believes. And if he doesn't, he doesn't, regardless of what anyone believes.
That doesn't sound strange to me.
Go look at the many dozens of arguments in Debate against heteronormativism and its supposedly Christian coherency. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are amoral, and equally so.
There are also those who aren't against organized religion on principle but don't identify with any particular organized religion.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
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But I don't.
We shouldn't become discouraged or less loving to those that have questioned, persecute, or attack your faith in God. I mean, there were people all over the place, past and present, that have been persecuted for their faith in Christ. And for those that are not as accepting of your faith, let them be. It doesn't mean that we should ignore them, but just hope and pray for a softened heart and a more opened mind, where maybe they will be more accepting of others' faiths and/or views rather than just attacking anything that doesn't fit their's. I can understand where they come from sometimes because it is often times that other Christians that have put Christianity in such a negative light. Just continue to show respect, listen, and love to those that even persecute you for your views. I mean, that's what Christ did, even to those that went to the extent of nailing him on a cross, right?
As for Christianity is a majority, it isn't so much about how many are oppressed, but who oppresses and persecutes you of your faith. Yes, I may be considered part of the majority of people that believe in Christ, but I still get criticized for being a Christian in my family. It hurts a lot to hear them attacking me of my faith in God. I can't really find relief in that by just hanging out with other Christians and them just telling me, "It's alright." I know that I am not alone on this. There are many Christians all over the U.S. and world that have to deal with this.
And on another point... This might not be of any significance to those that don't believe in the Bible, but I think this is probably some great words that Jesus said and encompasses a lot of what Christianity is about:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)
Yes, there are verses that say that homosexuality was a sin, but does not mean that you should not hate the person because of that. There are numerous passages about what's sinful and what isn't. I mean, Jesus was healing prostitutes, dining with tax collectors and what were considered to be the scum of society at the time. He did not judge people for their background or past. He still loved them regardless and that is what he taught to all his disciples/followers.
But Christianity is more than just rules that one must abide by or just believing that there's a God out there. There's a lot of other assumptions too that are made about Christianity (i.e. you have to be a perfect person, you can't drink, etc.) It's about this notion of having a relationship with God, Christ, and with each other. I think that is what has been lost among the ideas of Christianity, even to those that believe in Christ.
As one person said, Jesus isn't a religion, it's a relationship. It should be extended to those around you as well. Loving relationships to everyone around, even those that are aggressive against you or even your enemies. To those that have been attacked someone for being an atheist or not of the Christian faith is definitely disgusting... at least in my mind. It creates that negative image that I don't think it deserves. Other things that I've noticed that have created a negative image like how people think you're suppose to be perfect. Christians aren't perfect by any means. We sin, it's what makes us human beings. It's what separates us from Christ. It just a shame that it only takes one spoiled apple to ruin the whole barrel.
Christianity isn't about the haterade. It's about giving out the love to everyone out there. Being merciful to those that need mercy. Showing grace to all.
Argg the charging of reverse discrimination. Your religion has controled humanity for hundreds of years. I understand it has a bad rap, but think of what Christianity has done. [metaphor] Christianitycan be a like a humongous, successful, prosperous club that seems to always help people but "gets all its money from gangsters or has a bad past or whatever" joining gives you goods and bads
THANK! YOU!
Someone has it right, yes yes yes.
You can save the world with messages like that
Sadly Christians have and do do that so they kinda deserve that image for doing so
Go tell people that! Go tell the kids at Jesus Camp that! Go tell Bush that!
The internet is like drugs, it can be alot of fun, but most people on it say really stupid stuff
i do not agree that atheism results in prejudice. an opposition to stem cell research and other scientific progress DOES embody religion. these are the only usages of religious references other than in discussions of evangelism. if you are not using your religion in one of these listed discussions, i don't find why you would need to mention your faith. of course, there might be other subjects i have forgotten to list but i feel most are of the like.
It is my personal belief that most people think that they're getting a rough time for practicing what they practice. Though I have never heard of a Christian getting this sort of rough treatment, I don't think it is an impossibility. A lot of that sort of thing stems from ignorance, though. People fear and hate what they don't understand and all of that jazz. Though religious intolerance seems, to me anyways, to be rarely directed at people of a Abrahamic faith at least not as much as it is directed at people of alternative faiths or of secular beliefs or non-religious as a whole.
However, most of the religious (or non-religious) intolerance stems from ignorance. People are raised a certain way and they are set that their way is the only way. There is a large percent of the population that is of a Abrahamic religion, I know of a great number of Christians and such though I could count the Atheist's I know on both hands without my thumbs. And personally, I don't think there is a high level of intolerance against people of Abrahamic religions (except for Muslims).
But this is supposed to be my opinion on the issue at hand which from the first post would be: is being a religious christian rough?
My guess would be that if you're having a hard time with being Christian, it is because of the mainstream religious figures. They present a unique view of Christianity. There view of Christianity is basically a few hodge-podge verses from the bible that sort of breed intolerance towards alternative sexuality, alternative faiths, and other such things that other people find important.
The interesting thing is that I had a discussion about religion the other day with a few people who were Christians and it was rather enlightening. One of the people in the discussion (whose name I do not know) was talking about how when he first became a Christian (and please forgive the paraphrasing and the wording, this is what he said) he used to be an ******* Christian, but then he read the bible and now he will live and let live.
There are a lot of misconceptions (even to those practicing the faith) about what the real beliefs of Christianity are. You seriously can't have one facet saying love thy neighbor while the other facet says 'kill the homos' (sorry about that as well, I don't have any problem with gay people, that was just an example). I think that a lot of the intolerances from other religions is that most of them were raised Christian, and they were raised to dislike the things that they are now, so they turn that back on the Christians in a sort of revenge type thing.
That is my opinion, though it could be totally off.
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared
The curtains flew then he appeared...saying don't be afraid
Come on baby...and she had no fear
And she ran to him...then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodby...she had become like they are
She had taken his hand...she had become like they are
Come on baby...don't fear the reaper
(Don't Fear) The Reaper- Blue Oyster Cult
I also see some Aethist egotism on the forums as well. Not everyone is like this, but I have seen many aethiest who treat everyone who has any sort of faith as "mindless sheep" and that the aethiest are obviously smarter than them because they don't have a faith.
Grrrrr. Being a pagan (Hail Eris!), I hate seeing people do this sort of thing. We don't hate the church, we just don't agree with it, just the same as how most christians are. They don't hate us, they just don't agree with us. But thats high school kids for ya: let's rebel by conforming! Yay!
I personally see alot of validity in Christianity and borrow many of its ideas into my personal faith. I just don't completely agree with the church itself, what with middle age corruption and what not.
And now for something different:
I'm not going to list 5-6 because the answer I give is applicable to answer (partly) all of them. And let me say before I get into this that I am not Ba'hai
I am not Ba'hai, but the gist of it is that every spiritual path has some validity to it, and that everyone's spiritual paths differs in some way. The idea is that we need to stop having hang ups about religion, sex, race, etc, start respecting each other, and realize that every religion gives something to someone, and you really shouldn't care that everyone else has different religions. You should learn from them, maybe it will help you on your own path. It's kinda like cherrypicking, not mashing them all up, contradictions and all. Basically, anyone that has this particular faith has a different faith then everyone else in this religion, but they all share a basic ideal (if that makes any sense). It's kinda like unitarianism.
While I may have serious moral disagreements with what you do, if that is what you practice, I don't have any RELIGIOUS disagreements to what you do, but that's just me personally. However, I do have MORAL disagreements with what you do, and I would call the police. Technically, especially with broad religions such as this, Religious and Moral beliefs are not the same thing, although they do interact with each other alot.
Remember, the point of the religion is not to have everyone practice the same faith. It is to practice whatever faith works for you, but learning from and respecting what other people believe.
These are cults, not religions.
It's hard to summarize all the ideas of a religion so briefly, but I gave it a shot. Forgive me if I'm incorrect.
A big trudat to that. It's a shame, but its true.
Fantastic and oh so true. Certain people that I have met in the past need to read this paragraph.
So, I can do two things then. Either:
1. Remain celebate for the rest of my life.
2. Go score some ****ing viagra and get smashed every time I need to "take care of something" so I can actually get aroused in the presence of a woman.
Hmmm.....
I'll end it there, before profane rage takes over.
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Personally, I've had people in my life think less of me for liking football, for liking pro wrestling, for gaming, for not having tried drugs, for not having had sex, and for not having completed college.
With all that stuff, I'd be more surprised if some people didn't think I was a idiot for believing in The Invisible Man Living In The Sky.
Also, the internet tends to be very liberal and aetheists also tend to be liberals so that's a factor too.
Being any religion is often times not easy.
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I think a line needs to be drawn between respect and tolerance. I tolerate all religions. I respect none, since I personally think they are all equally crazy. Respecting something gives it at least some validity to whatever it is you respect. Once can be tolerant of religions and religious people, without respecting their beliefs. Not only that, but truly, nothing is too sacred that it can't be debated. EVERYTHING is up for debate. Once something moves into the realm of "Lets not talk about it" were treading dangerous water.
That's a very good point. Though this isn't really the thread, I totally agree with the last part. What is the point of having controversy if we can't talk about it?
On another, more related note, I don't understand the comment that was posted about the 'radical atheists'. What exactly is radical atheism, one would wonder. I'm just wondering the reasoning behind that because radical atheism just doesn't seem right at all.
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared
The curtains flew then he appeared...saying don't be afraid
Come on baby...and she had no fear
And she ran to him...then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodby...she had become like they are
She had taken his hand...she had become like they are
Come on baby...don't fear the reaper
(Don't Fear) The Reaper- Blue Oyster Cult
Natural 20 MTGS Brigade Pages
Community Project
But in this case, specifically religion, most people don't really respect it as a whole. A lot of people respect their own religions, and thats it. But someone mentioned already, and I'm rehashing it, being tolerant of a religion and respecting a religion is completely different. I can be tolerant and not respect it.
Nothing is sacred enough to *not* discuss, everything is open for debate, it is why we have free speech (in America...) which also goes along with the other part of this subject, Freedom of Religion.
And it was clear she couldn't go on
Then the door was open and the wind appeared
The candles blew then disappeared
The curtains flew then he appeared...saying don't be afraid
Come on baby...and she had no fear
And she ran to him...then they started to fly
They looked backward and said goodby...she had become like they are
She had taken his hand...she had become like they are
Come on baby...don't fear the reaper
(Don't Fear) The Reaper- Blue Oyster Cult
Surely their own religion counts as part of "religion as a whole"? And in any case, most people respect religion more than they respect non-religion.