You're almost, not quite, but almost right. Except around here, that just isn't true. For some reason you think commiting a crime as minor as murder will keep a person in prison. In that you are wrong. As I said the person who shot my cousin also shot and KILLED another person barely two years before and was released from prison.
Your idea requires the existence of a some what working and competent justice system where people who do criminal activity find that they put in more than they ever get out of it. Yes if the average mugger thought "If I try this I could be a: Killed with the flick of a finger or b: sentenced to prison. then the logical conclusion is I'll go with C...Would you like fries with that?"
With your idea the mugger has "They have a gun or they have money" I could walk down the street right now and find people who spend more time in the police station than the officers themselves. Have been convicted of felony after felony yet they are out on the street, but hey you could just carry a gun. Having people that are "more vicious than other people give them credit for" carrying a gun, great idea.
Alright. Let's assume that you're right and the justice system is completely broken. No one spends time in jail for murder.
How do you then fix the scenario without availing to the law? Your choices at that point are either to live a virtual slave, forfeiting your income and wealth, or you can try to fight against the trend. What is the problem? Muggers and murderers aren't being punished. Well, if murder isn't being punished, why don't you kill the murderers yourself? You won't be punished, and they won't be around to victimize more people. If you're in a scenario where the only out is vigilantism, then by all means, be a vigilante. You can't really think it would be better to live as a perpetual victim? What other actual solutions are there? You haven't offered one.
Alright. Let's assume that you're right and the justice system is completely broken. No one spends time in jail for murder.
How do you then fix the scenario without availing to the law? Your choices at that point are either to live a virtual slave, forfeiting your income and wealth, or you can try to fight against the trend. What is the problem? Muggers and murderers aren't being punished. Well, if murder isn't being punished, why don't you kill the murderers yourself? You won't be punished, and they won't be around to victimize more people. If you're in a scenario where the only out is vigilantism, then by all means, be a vigilante. You can't really think it would be better to live as a perpetual victim? What other actual solutions are there? You haven't offered one.
Well we could treat the cause (why they are chosing to steal from people in the street) instead of the effect (the actual thievery) since most thugs are not spoiled rich kids with too time on their hands they must be doing it for what they think is a valid reason. Most likely a lack of resources, ejamacation or a job that actually pays enough to live not just survive. If we could improve those things we could theoretically remove the thuggery.
As for the already existing ones or those that still will not stop. I would love to claim that breaking the law to teach people not to break the law is flawed, history just has too many successful rebellions for me to argue it. I wouldn't like shooting them, and not because I am against killing for moral reasons but simply because I see it a waste of resources. I keep thinking "If he put his talents to something positive it would be beneficial" but instead he's here doing this.
On the plus side I always wondered why you called yourself an assassin, question answered.
And how, pray tell, do you propose to fix the education and the employment situation in a neighborhood where people are in fear for their possessions and their lives? Survival must come first, before anything else. Certainly vigilantism isn't enough to fix up a neighborhood, but a necessary first step is that the streets be safe enough to walk and people secure enough in their lives and possessions to want to stay and to want to build something more.
Ejamacation? Why do people steal and mug? Because they're lazy. We as a society can't cure laziness. We can however punish the thieves. If the courts won't punish them, then the public must. If guns are needed for that, then so be it. If a couple of thieves die along the way, then society is better off because of it. This is only if the justice system is as bad as you say it is, which I don't think it is.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
And how, pray tell, do you propose to fix the education and the employment situation in a neighborhood where people are in fear for their possessions and their lives? Survival must come first, before anything else. Certainly vigilantism isn't enough to fix up a neighborhood, but a necessary first step is that the streets be safe enough to walk and people secure enough in their lives and possessions to want to stay and to want to build something more.
But they are staying, despite all the death going on around here. Its like the flavor text of twin strike at time. Most people aren't moving away. Which means that they are staying. We don't have a negative population growth, so people are surviving. So those things are already taken care of. But if handing out guns and having said gun-totting people stand on the corner makes people feel better, then you can hand out some guns.
Its has already been proven that the mere presence of people lowers crime. People here have done it, they have walked to corners and just stood there, and the criminals went to another corner. Which means if we could theoretically get enough people to care enough to stop watching TV and just go outside something positive could happen. Giving them guns isn't going to suddenly make them want to do it. Besides people getting their courage and conviction from a gun isn't going to neccasarily create a positive change. The phrase "who watches the watchers come to mind"
Now I just need Mayor whats-his-name to stop using resource to turn Philly into a big ass Wi-Fi hotspot and use those resources to create something that would attract businesses to here.
I didn't say the Justice system is as useful as salt at a slugfarm. Its not some well oiled machine. People are constantly being released from prison who haven't been rehabilitated at all. And I can find people who have committed multiple felonies even murder and are still walking the streets. So either they escaped and nobody has noticed or...the justice system is not 100% efficient.
I am also well aware that the people that are not leaving the neighborhood are not staying cause they love the place, its they lack the resources to leave. So that could be used to motivate them to actually do something about it. For example someone gets shot and robbed. Nobody calls the police and if the police show up everyone had their TV on to loud to hear anything and their windows were closed so nobody saw anything. I have personally seen that happen, its not from an episode of Law & Order.
Most people don't wake up roll out of their king size bed, put on gold chains, drive around in a Benz and suddenly decide to go mug someone. Yes its easy to say oh they are just lazy or don't want to work. Now we can villainize them and make them less human. Or we can find out why they are doing it and change the situation to something that is better. Because some of them do have jobs. Some of them work all day at Burger King only to find thier pay check coming up short, and so have to do something else.
Some of the people who are doing the mugging, were class mates of mine in middle school. So too me they are not just lazy strangers who need a good shooting. They are people who do what they do for a reason. Imagine that some of them are...humans.
I got nearly mugged once. I came back with a friend from the Ravnica prerelease and some foreigners start acting annoying, following us, then threatening us and demanding our money or they'd beat us up. One punched my friend in the face and he gave his wallet. I refused so the same guy (chief I presume) grabbed my chin and started threatening me some more. Luckily, then some other guy in the street yelled at them and they ran off.
It wasn't much, but it's increased my level of racism and paranoia seriously. Everytime I see a foreigner (or 'degenerate' looking guy) in the street, even at day, I'm always wary of my possessions and feel really uncomfortable. Even though, of course, I know I really shouldn't be.
I could get myself a gun now, though it would be rather hard with current Belgium gun law, which was made more strict after a racistic shooting incident, blown out of proportion by the media. But if I did, I fear I might actually use it, to kill, not wound. It was a thought constantly on my mind for weeks after the incident: what if I had had a weapon?
You show the weapon, they say it was all a joke and request nervously for you to calm down, after all it was only a joke. Then turn and run?
Or they pull a gun and shoot you, and say it was self-defense. I wouldn't reccomend carrying a gun, personally, because it complicates things and might give them a excuse to hurt you more than necessary. Or it might save you from a mugging. You never know.
You show the weapon, they say it was all a joke and request nervously for you to calm down, after all it was only a joke. Then turn and run?
You just proved my point about how carrying guns can stop muggings. Also, it seems like you have Stockholm Syndrome after being psychologically captive to muggers, partly because you knew some of them. If they only have a job at burger king instead of a real job, maybe they should've worked harder in school, proving my point about laziness. If they're such non-villains as you portray them to be, why do they victimize people instead of doing positive work to advance themselves. How would you like to be one of their targets? You'd probably feel different then.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
You just proved my point about how carrying guns can stop muggings. Also, it seems like you have Stockholm Syndrome after being psychologically captive to muggers, partly because you knew some of them. If they only have a job at burger king instead of a real job, maybe they should've worked harder in school, proving my point about laziness. If they're such non-villains as you portray them to be, why do they victimize people instead of doing positive work to advance themselves. How would you like to be one of their targets? You'd probably feel different then.
Which is it? Have I been held captive by them, or do I need to experience it to feel differently? Those are two ideas are mutually exclusive. How do you know they didn't work hard in school? What makes you think working at Burger King isn't a real job, you might wanna hop off that high horse of yours. It doesn't prove anything, you don't know or want to know them so you make generalization about them failing school or being lazy, God forbid you ever actually get to know someone to under why they actually do. Also my point was one outcome of what could happen. The very next poster showed another possible outcome. What if they don't run away, what if they fight? What if they pull guns too? Anything could happen. Actually I've been mugged before and other things, doesn't mean I have go around hating everyone. I look at people and see people, you see the stereotypes that are conveninient for you. If you really think carrying guns will make the world a better place, you should start getting people to do it and see what happens. Just tell me who, so I can send flowers.
I was making a geuss at why you seemed so sympathetic to the cause of degenerate thieves there, with the S.S. thing. I mentioneed that maybe you needed to be mugged to get why muggers are bad people. You seem to be making eexcuses for them. Burger King is a real job, what I meant was one that somebody can live well with. I assumed that if BK was the best job that they could get, once they were through college, that they weren't the best students. Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't you get a better job by working harder?
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
So you are saying that every single person who has a bad job or a job that they do not want want is just lazy and you can guarantee without fail that if they applied themselves they could always get a better job? If the answer to those questions is ever "no" then they need to find a way to suppliment their income. Yes I would prefer they got a second legitimate job, or went to college (meanwhile the person asking me if I want to supersize it has been through college longer than I have) and obtained a better job. But to a poor person in a bad neighborhood Temple University is out of their reach. It could be in your reach and you took the chance and became successful, but everyone cannot do that.
I am not sympathetic to the cause, I am saddened by the fact that some people are born with nothing, given nothing and feel the only way to get it is to steal and instead of being offered a chance to get something better its just oh just shoot the scum.
We bendoverbackwards in this country to ensure that everyone gets every possible leg up, at every possible opportunity, either through opportunites/economy created by the TRILLIONS of dollars sloshing around this best-economy-in-the-world of ours, the common decency and generosity of our philanthropists & citizens, and the policies of affirmative action and other social opportunity programs for those who are for-any-reason less well-off than the majority. A lot of the people that those programs target 'get it'. They take advantage of this leg up, work hard, and become productive. This phenomenon cuts across all races and social groups.
Now. All that said, the thing is, no matter how much you hand to folks, there is also going to be some percentage of individuals who would much prefer to sit back and waitformore because we've trained them that there is much benefit to them in doing anything different. That is simple human nature.
At what point do you stop wringing your hands about these poor lost souls and actually decide OK, we've helped you enough. Get off your butt and get a job. Get off your butt and study in school....or leave and suffer the consequences that entails. (I think compulsory military service would be a fine choice...they're pretty good at motivating people and otherwise kicking them in the butt to do so.)
We do not live in a theoretical society with unlimited time, money, resources, and caring to throw at the problem, and we never will.
We live in a non-Utopia with LIMITED time, money, resources, and caring...and always will.
Ofcourse we all agree, it would be the obvious choice to do the first option, if we could. Who wouldn't want that.
The fact remains, we cannot, given the reality we live in.
Once that is established, you then have to set a boundary somewhere...sometime. And then you clearly establish what that boundary will be. And then you communicate that to everyone in the country. And then you clearly establish what the consequences will be if you cross that boundary. And then you enforce it, across the country as practically as possible...again, there's that issue of limited resources popping up again, so you cannot count on it being 100% airtight/perfect. Over-simplified? Yes. Draconian? You bet. Effective? Absolutely...given the chance.
Mugging a defenseless 17-year old because you're a lazy punk who likes stealing other people's money, rather than earning your own, is a fine example of crossing that boundary. It is completely unacceptable behavior in any civilized society, and should not be tolerated or be defended by making excuses like "Well, the kid just didn't have enough opportunity." That is utter hogwash.
/rant (sorry)
Contrary to what you might think after reading that, I'm completely open to disagreement and ideas that make more sense than my own. Please convince me otherwise. (And sorry it came across as so flame-y, but this issue really gets my goat. I just get going sometimes--a problem.)
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
So your solution is too simply shoot them or scare them into working for money you assume exists but may not actually be there for them. What if they are somebody who couldn't get help, you already said the system is imperfect therefore its not that hard to beleive that some people aren't going to get the leg up. So if 1% of the population was for some reason out reach of that help that means that a couple million people are gonna get left behind.
Obviously mugging people is wrong, so is stealing. But summarily shooting people just because you presume them to be lazy or because you think they did bad in school can't be the most moral descision either. I am not giving an excuse or justifying their behavior, but its not like the people that are doing it because its easier than getting up earlier and going to work. It happens when their jobs are not enough and your hand out aren't reaching them. When their pay check comes to 600 dollar and they need 800 dollars to keep their apartment.
Yes there are some that work simply out sloth and ending their life would be no great loss. But how about the people who use the money to buy baby food that they otherwise couldn't afford? Their demise might actually cause problems for someone.
It's not shooting them for being degenerate failures, it's shooting them for trrying to rob and assault me. Also, I'd rather have them go without baby formula so that I don't get my teeth / general body ****ed up, and my rent / car payment / magic / food money stolen. If it's between me not getting beat up and getting food, and me getting beat up so some degenerate can feed their spawn, geuss which I choose. sure, some will fall through the cracks, but they can work their way out if they work hard enough. For example, my dad went from crappy town in the middle of nowhere and a lower-middleclass(for the area, meaning not much) family to succesful anesthesiologist in a nice house in Ithaca. How'd he get here instead of becoming some poor redneck? Hard work. People can succeed if they work hard enough.
It's not shooting them for being degenerate failures, it's shooting them for trrying to rob and assault me. Also, I'd rather have them go without baby formula so that I don't get my teeth / general body ****ed up, and my rent / car payment / magic / food money stolen. If it's between me not getting beat up and getting food, and me getting beat up so some degenerate can feed their spawn, geuss which I choose. sure, some will fall through the cracks, but they can work their way out if they work hard enough. For example, my dad went from crappy town in the middle of nowhere and a lower-middleclass(for the area, meaning not much) family to succesful anesthesiologist in a nice house in Ithaca. How'd he get here instead of becoming some poor redneck? Hard work. People can succeed if they work hard enough.
Gratz so did my Father but using music instead of numbing people. But that doesn't mean everyone can do it. The oppurtunity my Dad used meant that someone else couldn't. Someone had to fall where he succeeded. And that person is just to be abandoned and shot? The oddest thing is that must of ya say the same thing I say to people who think they can't get ahead and have a persecution complex. But at the the same time I watch people work hard, way harder than I do. That work two jobs, get up early every day just to fail, again and again. Working doesn't always work, nothing always works, even gravity can fail (liquid hydrogen flows uphill). So when they desperate and can't think of anything else, they get no help, they do get a nice shiney gun in the face.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Look, not everyone goes around looking for disadvantaged youths to point a gun at. Most people merely want to defend their properties and themselves, not actively go out and shoot people.
That's why I prefer the Netherlands over the US: you can't get a gun easily.
Okay, you're right about defending yourself and your property, but you shouldn't shoot him in the progress. Learn how to defend yourself, it's much more effective: since you will also look more confident, they will think twice before trying anything.
I once was assaulted too. Two guys came up to me and started to shout about what they wanted to do with me. I just stood there and laughed at their idiocy. One of them ran for it. The other became angry and attacked me. Too bad that I know a few martial arts myself. I broke his kneecap and walked away, no need to do more than that.
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We have laboured long to build a heaven, only to find it populated with horrors.
That's why I prefer the Netherlands over the US: you can't get a gun easily.
Okay, you're right about defending yourself and your property, but you shouldn't shoot him in the progress. Learn how to defend yourself, it's much more effective: since you will also look more confident, they will think twice before trying anything.
I once was assaulted too. Two guys came up to me and started to shout about what they wanted to do with me. I just stood there and laughed at their idiocy. One of them ran for it. The other became angry and attacked me. Too bad that I know a few martial arts myself. I broke his kneecap and walked away, no need to do more than that.
Women, the elderly, anyone under 5'3", children, anyone facing a mugger with a knife or two or three competent assailants. What do they do? Or does it not matter what happens to them, because you at least can kung fu an incompetent drunkard? Why is your bleeding heart so full of compassion for violent scum, but none for their innocent victims?
Women, the elderly, anyone under 5'3", children, anyone facing a mugger with a knife or two or three competent assailants. What do they do? Or does it not matter what happens to them, because you at least can kung fu an incompetent drunkard? Why is your bleeding heart so full of compassion for violent scum, but none for their innocent victims?
Well I suppose giving a gun to every elderly person. child and person under 5'3" would be mildly amusing, perhaps there is a better way. Its coicidental however everytime someone on here sucessfully repels a mugger, said mugger is incompetant or drunk. But everyone else is facing Super-Mugger! Who can only be stopped by a gun.
Everyone packin' heat will only work in the shortrun then the muggers will travel in bigger groups with guns too. And I love a good shoot-out as much as the next person, I have this nagging feeling it'll bad for the neighborhood.
Agredracorius: It is demonstrable fact that in areas where there are highly publicized concealed weapons laws on the books, crime like muggings have, in fact, gone down. I can probably find those statistics if I look around a bit.
OK, let's take the word 'gun' out of the equation, since it is such a (please GOD, forgive me) loaded word.
Would you guys be ok if the original poster pulled out a crowbar and tattooed this punk's head, killing him? Or would you still side with the mugger?
=====================================
What about beating him into a coma for 6 months, but he lives?
Do you still have so much sympathy for this poor unfortunate guy who can't get a leg up, and got put in a hospital for his savage acts?
Again, he's not dead, merely grievously injured.
=====================================
What about merely punching him in the nose and he runs off like a little girl bawling. Do you then decide to take him in and attempt to rehabilitate him? or do you give the verbal dressing-down he so rightly deserves?
I'm just trying to see if we're all responding to the use of lethal force (in a somewhat reflexive fashion) -OR- any the use of any force at all.
Think long and hard...I'm curious as to your response. Great discussion!
Your idea requires the existence of a some what working and competent justice system where people who do criminal activity find that they put in more than they ever get out of it. Yes if the average mugger thought "If I try this I could be a: Killed with the flick of a finger or b: sentenced to prison. then the logical conclusion is I'll go with C...Would you like fries with that?"
With your idea the mugger has "They have a gun or they have money" I could walk down the street right now and find people who spend more time in the police station than the officers themselves. Have been convicted of felony after felony yet they are out on the street, but hey you could just carry a gun. Having people that are "more vicious than other people give them credit for" carrying a gun, great idea.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
How do you then fix the scenario without availing to the law? Your choices at that point are either to live a virtual slave, forfeiting your income and wealth, or you can try to fight against the trend. What is the problem? Muggers and murderers aren't being punished. Well, if murder isn't being punished, why don't you kill the murderers yourself? You won't be punished, and they won't be around to victimize more people. If you're in a scenario where the only out is vigilantism, then by all means, be a vigilante. You can't really think it would be better to live as a perpetual victim? What other actual solutions are there? You haven't offered one.
Well we could treat the cause (why they are chosing to steal from people in the street) instead of the effect (the actual thievery) since most thugs are not spoiled rich kids with too time on their hands they must be doing it for what they think is a valid reason. Most likely a lack of resources, ejamacation or a job that actually pays enough to live not just survive. If we could improve those things we could theoretically remove the thuggery.
As for the already existing ones or those that still will not stop. I would love to claim that breaking the law to teach people not to break the law is flawed, history just has too many successful rebellions for me to argue it. I wouldn't like shooting them, and not because I am against killing for moral reasons but simply because I see it a waste of resources. I keep thinking "If he put his talents to something positive it would be beneficial" but instead he's here doing this.
On the plus side I always wondered why you called yourself an assassin, question answered.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
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But they are staying, despite all the death going on around here. Its like the flavor text of twin strike at time. Most people aren't moving away. Which means that they are staying. We don't have a negative population growth, so people are surviving. So those things are already taken care of. But if handing out guns and having said gun-totting people stand on the corner makes people feel better, then you can hand out some guns.
Its has already been proven that the mere presence of people lowers crime. People here have done it, they have walked to corners and just stood there, and the criminals went to another corner. Which means if we could theoretically get enough people to care enough to stop watching TV and just go outside something positive could happen. Giving them guns isn't going to suddenly make them want to do it. Besides people getting their courage and conviction from a gun isn't going to neccasarily create a positive change. The phrase "who watches the watchers come to mind"
Now I just need Mayor whats-his-name to stop using resource to turn Philly into a big ass Wi-Fi hotspot and use those resources to create something that would attract businesses to here.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
I am also well aware that the people that are not leaving the neighborhood are not staying cause they love the place, its they lack the resources to leave. So that could be used to motivate them to actually do something about it. For example someone gets shot and robbed. Nobody calls the police and if the police show up everyone had their TV on to loud to hear anything and their windows were closed so nobody saw anything. I have personally seen that happen, its not from an episode of Law & Order.
Most people don't wake up roll out of their king size bed, put on gold chains, drive around in a Benz and suddenly decide to go mug someone. Yes its easy to say oh they are just lazy or don't want to work. Now we can villainize them and make them less human. Or we can find out why they are doing it and change the situation to something that is better. Because some of them do have jobs. Some of them work all day at Burger King only to find thier pay check coming up short, and so have to do something else.
Some of the people who are doing the mugging, were class mates of mine in middle school. So too me they are not just lazy strangers who need a good shooting. They are people who do what they do for a reason. Imagine that some of them are...humans.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
You show the weapon, they say it was all a joke and request nervously for you to calm down, after all it was only a joke. Then turn and run?
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
You just proved my point about how carrying guns can stop muggings. Also, it seems like you have Stockholm Syndrome after being psychologically captive to muggers, partly because you knew some of them. If they only have a job at burger king instead of a real job, maybe they should've worked harder in school, proving my point about laziness. If they're such non-villains as you portray them to be, why do they victimize people instead of doing positive work to advance themselves. How would you like to be one of their targets? You'd probably feel different then.
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Which is it? Have I been held captive by them, or do I need to experience it to feel differently? Those are two ideas are mutually exclusive. How do you know they didn't work hard in school? What makes you think working at Burger King isn't a real job, you might wanna hop off that high horse of yours. It doesn't prove anything, you don't know or want to know them so you make generalization about them failing school or being lazy, God forbid you ever actually get to know someone to under why they actually do. Also my point was one outcome of what could happen. The very next poster showed another possible outcome. What if they don't run away, what if they fight? What if they pull guns too? Anything could happen. Actually I've been mugged before and other things, doesn't mean I have go around hating everyone. I look at people and see people, you see the stereotypes that are conveninient for you. If you really think carrying guns will make the world a better place, you should start getting people to do it and see what happens. Just tell me who, so I can send flowers.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
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I am not sympathetic to the cause, I am saddened by the fact that some people are born with nothing, given nothing and feel the only way to get it is to steal and instead of being offered a chance to get something better its just oh just shoot the scum.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
We bend over backwards in this country to ensure that everyone gets every possible leg up, at every possible opportunity, either through opportunites/economy created by the TRILLIONS of dollars sloshing around this best-economy-in-the-world of ours, the common decency and generosity of our philanthropists & citizens, and the policies of affirmative action and other social opportunity programs for those who are for-any-reason less well-off than the majority. A lot of the people that those programs target 'get it'. They take advantage of this leg up, work hard, and become productive. This phenomenon cuts across all races and social groups.
Now. All that said, the thing is, no matter how much you hand to folks, there is also going to be some percentage of individuals who would much prefer to sit back and wait for more because we've trained them that there is much benefit to them in doing anything different. That is simple human nature.
At what point do you stop wringing your hands about these poor lost souls and actually decide OK, we've helped you enough. Get off your butt and get a job. Get off your butt and study in school....or leave and suffer the consequences that entails. (I think compulsory military service would be a fine choice...they're pretty good at motivating people and otherwise kicking them in the butt to do so.)
We do not live in a theoretical society with unlimited time, money, resources, and caring to throw at the problem, and we never will.
We live in a non-Utopia with LIMITED time, money, resources, and caring...and always will.
Of course we all agree, it would be the obvious choice to do the first option, if we could. Who wouldn't want that.
The fact remains, we cannot, given the reality we live in.
Once that is established, you then have to set a boundary somewhere...sometime. And then you clearly establish what that boundary will be. And then you communicate that to everyone in the country. And then you clearly establish what the consequences will be if you cross that boundary. And then you enforce it, across the country as practically as possible...again, there's that issue of limited resources popping up again, so you cannot count on it being 100% airtight/perfect. Over-simplified? Yes. Draconian? You bet. Effective? Absolutely...given the chance.
Mugging a defenseless 17-year old because you're a lazy punk who likes stealing other people's money, rather than earning your own, is a fine example of crossing that boundary. It is completely unacceptable behavior in any civilized society, and should not be tolerated or be defended by making excuses like "Well, the kid just didn't have enough opportunity." That is utter hogwash.
/rant (sorry)
Contrary to what you might think after reading that, I'm completely open to disagreement and ideas that make more sense than my own. Please convince me otherwise. (And sorry it came across as so flame-y, but this issue really gets my goat. I just get going sometimes--a problem.)
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Obviously mugging people is wrong, so is stealing. But summarily shooting people just because you presume them to be lazy or because you think they did bad in school can't be the most moral descision either. I am not giving an excuse or justifying their behavior, but its not like the people that are doing it because its easier than getting up earlier and going to work. It happens when their jobs are not enough and your hand out aren't reaching them. When their pay check comes to 600 dollar and they need 800 dollars to keep their apartment.
Yes there are some that work simply out sloth and ending their life would be no great loss. But how about the people who use the money to buy baby food that they otherwise couldn't afford? Their demise might actually cause problems for someone.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
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It has been said: "The harder you work, the luckier you get."
I think that should apply primarily to kids in school, but it certainly has some applicability in adult world as well. (or else I'm totally screwed.)
I can't think of a country in the world where this is more true than the US.
Ok, I'm done. Let the smartfolk debate this one...this thread should be moved to Debate.
@ original poster--what happened really sucks & I hope your friend is OK. Maybe it's time to take up karate.
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Gratz so did my Father but using music instead of numbing people. But that doesn't mean everyone can do it. The oppurtunity my Dad used meant that someone else couldn't. Someone had to fall where he succeeded. And that person is just to be abandoned and shot? The oddest thing is that must of ya say the same thing I say to people who think they can't get ahead and have a persecution complex. But at the the same time I watch people work hard, way harder than I do. That work two jobs, get up early every day just to fail, again and again. Working doesn't always work, nothing always works, even gravity can fail (liquid hydrogen flows uphill). So when they desperate and can't think of anything else, they get no help, they do get a nice shiney gun in the face.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
Only if they try to rob and assault me.
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Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
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That's why I prefer the Netherlands over the US: you can't get a gun easily.
Okay, you're right about defending yourself and your property, but you shouldn't shoot him in the progress. Learn how to defend yourself, it's much more effective: since you will also look more confident, they will think twice before trying anything.
I once was assaulted too. Two guys came up to me and started to shout about what they wanted to do with me. I just stood there and laughed at their idiocy. One of them ran for it. The other became angry and attacked me. Too bad that I know a few martial arts myself. I broke his kneecap and walked away, no need to do more than that.
Women, the elderly, anyone under 5'3", children, anyone facing a mugger with a knife or two or three competent assailants. What do they do? Or does it not matter what happens to them, because you at least can kung fu an incompetent drunkard? Why is your bleeding heart so full of compassion for violent scum, but none for their innocent victims?
Well I suppose giving a gun to every elderly person. child and person under 5'3" would be mildly amusing, perhaps there is a better way. Its coicidental however everytime someone on here sucessfully repels a mugger, said mugger is incompetant or drunk. But everyone else is facing Super-Mugger! Who can only be stopped by a gun.
Everyone packin' heat will only work in the shortrun then the muggers will travel in bigger groups with guns too. And I love a good shoot-out as much as the next person, I have this nagging feeling it'll bad for the neighborhood.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
OK, let's take the word 'gun' out of the equation, since it is such a (please GOD, forgive me) loaded word.
Would you guys be ok if the original poster pulled out a crowbar and tattooed this punk's head, killing him? Or would you still side with the mugger?
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What about beating him into a coma for 6 months, but he lives?
Do you still have so much sympathy for this poor unfortunate guy who can't get a leg up, and got put in a hospital for his savage acts?
Again, he's not dead, merely grievously injured.
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What about merely punching him in the nose and he runs off like a little girl bawling. Do you then decide to take him in and attempt to rehabilitate him? or do you give the verbal dressing-down he so rightly deserves?
I'm just trying to see if we're all responding to the use of lethal force (in a somewhat reflexive fashion) -OR- any the use of any force at all.
Think long and hard...I'm curious as to your response. Great discussion!
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