So, they can't just write a zombie book. They have to infringe on an already written masterpiece and foul it up?
Personally, I'm not a fan of the Victorian novels, but still, why rewrite it?
It's just like people who remake old movies just to try and make $$$ for the studios. Its ridiculous. We've stooped so low as to not come up with new ideas, rather we go back and change old things. It's acts of cowardice.
Are you familiar with the reasoning that using old ideas in a new way can be called originality? Also, have you even read the book? Are you basing your opinions on what you immeadiatly saw without actually knowing anything about the subject? God, I know that there is a word for that...
Damn, I can't think of it. Oi vell. Also, what did you think about the colorizing of B&W movies? Would it not look right? I want you opinion, you seem to have watched a lot of B&Ws.
Pardon me if this idea has already been discussed, but I don't think that the intelligence of teenagers is the area to address. I think rather, the overall work ethic of people in my generation (18ish) is the main issue. With the dawn of the "technological age", the older generations seem to have adopted a new stance of "screw it, I've gotten by without the computer this far, why learn how to use it now." This leads to two problems. The first is that the youth have no role model when it comes to technology. They are exploring a frontier uncharted, leaving them free to develop their own practices. It's like learning how to fix a car without proper teacher, and filling replacing a muffler with a soup can. It may work, but it's less polished (for lack of a better concept) then a real muffler. Compare this to "TXT" speak. It looks sloppy, dumb and childish when compared to a correctly formed sentence.
The other problem, one I feel is much more alarming, is the model of "giving up" that the older generation has laid out for the youth. When youth sees adults giving up on something they grasp as simple, they tend to adopt that stance towards things they find difficult. I mean, after all, when try hard when you get by fine as things were going.
The solution should seem easy then, we must instill in the youth, and subsequently the adults, the old fires of hard work that our nation was once built on. It must become the norm, cool and hip once again to speak properly, take an interest in news, read a book.
This however, is a far cry dream to the stark contrast of reality in which we live.
Kids today aren't less intelligent, they're just lazy, self-involved, sheltered and apathetic.
The slate is there to be filled with knowledge, they're more than capable, they just don't make the effort. Largely, I suspect, because they're raised to believe they're special little beams of perfect radiant light and teachers are increasingly more just talking at students as children rather than engaging them as people. Kids lack discipline these days (which I believe was less the case in generations past) and teaching methods are based on the assumption that students are disciplined.
The truth of the matter is that kids don't care. They don't have the patience for school because everything else about their lives is immediate and served up on an easy platter for them. School is an arduous task, and one which has no apparent value to the average teen. They're told that they have to go, have to get good grades, have to study, have to sit quietly, have to read, have to write, etc, etc. All of this adds up to a huge wall that keeps the average teen from becoming engaged by learning. Adults made it a chore that they're forced to do.
Which is on us as parents and as teachers. If teens are getting crappier, a significant portion of that is on us because we made them that way.
Pardon me if this idea has already been discussed, but I don't think that the intelligence of teenagers is the area to address. I think rather, the overall work ethic of people in my generation (18ish) is the main issue. With the dawn of the "technological age", the older generations seem to have adopted a new stance of "screw it, I've gotten by without the computer this far, why learn how to use it now." This leads to two problems. The first is that the youth have no role model when it comes to technology. They are exploring a frontier uncharted, leaving them free to develop their own practices. It's like learning how to fix a car without proper teacher, and filling replacing a muffler with a soup can. It may work, but it's less polished (for lack of a better concept) then a real muffler. Compare this to "TXT" speak. It looks sloppy, dumb and childish when compared to a correctly formed sentence.
The other problem, one I feel is much more alarming, is the model of "giving up" that the older generation has laid out for the youth. When youth sees adults giving up on something they grasp as simple, they tend to adopt that stance towards things they find difficult. I mean, after all, when try hard when you get by fine as things were going.
The solution should seem easy then, we must instill in the youth, and subsequently the adults, the old fires of hard work that our nation was once built on. It must become the norm, cool and hip once again to speak properly, take an interest in news, read a book.
This however, is a far cry dream to the stark contrast of reality in which we live.
The potential is there to be harnessed, but there's multiple facets/aspects that are the cause of the decline in the use of peoples' brains, rather than the actual decline in intelligence. The saddest part is that since the ball started rolling, it has only becoming catastrophically larger over time.
It partly comes down to the person's willingness to learn, if that isn't there, then they are refusing to help themselves. Again, relating to what mikeyG said.
On a side note, most people don't know how lucky they are to even be alive, to even know how everything wound up the way it has. History itself is a good way to learn, but repeats as we know, in the most obscure ways sometimes. Really is sad to reflect on the ignorance expressed by most younger people I know. At the same time, trying to inform some of the youths sometimes seems to be all too titanic of a task (refer to the point made above).
The potential is there to be harnessed, but there's multiple facets/aspects that are the cause of the decline in the use of peoples' brains, rather than the actual decline in intelligence. The saddest part is that since the ball started rolling, it has only becoming catastrophically larger over time.
It partly comes down to the person's willingness to learn, if that isn't there, then they are refusing to help themselves. Again, relating to what mikeyG said.
On a side note, most people don't know how lucky they are to even be alive, to even know how everything wound up the way it has. History itself is a good way to learn, but repeats as we know, in the most obscure ways sometimes. Really is sad to reflect on the ignorance expressed by most younger people I know. At the same time, trying to inform some of the youths sometimes seems to be all too titanic of a task (refer to the point made above).
mikeyG is correct, though I don't know that it's really any different than before. I think every generation has its shining star students, and behind them is a parent and maybe an educator really doing things right. Behind a lot of the failing kids you're going to see a lot of failing parents and educators as well. However, I don't think this is anything new, I think it's the way its always been. Does technology exacerbate the problem? Maybe- it's really a pretty complex question to answer. At the end of the day though, success or failure exists at the level of the individual and the quality of support they receive.
Well, I would be in that age group. I must say, that I think your right about most kids. I'm not going to say that I am the best kid ever, but I do read. I read some compendiums by H.P. Lovecraft and also am a huge fan of Jonathan Stroud.
In fact, one of my friend in my english class had the balls to read War and Peace!
I do agree, about the technology though. I think the allure of the internet and other devices is just too much for kids to take. It's just a big time waster that is a bit fun.
Also I don't know what you mean about stupid books the school reccomends. For us, we had to read The Merchant of Venice and The Chrysalids for our class! Maybe it's different in the states?
mikeyG is correct, though I don't know that it's really any different than before. I think every generation has its shining star students, and behind them is a parent and maybe an educator really doing things right. Behind a lot of the failing kids you're going to see a lot of failing parents and educators as well. However, I don't think this is anything new, I think it's the way its always been. Does technology exacerbate the problem? Maybe- it's really a pretty complex question to answer. At the end of the day though, success or failure exists at the level of the individual and the quality of support they receive.
I don't disagree, but I've always had the impression that generations past were a bit harder on kids. They had more chores, greater responsibilities, grown-ups were more strict, there were fewer distractions (tv, music, games, movies, etc, etc), they often had to work or help raise other kids in the family, and so on. I think, in many ways, we've become too easy on kids. They're spoiled and everything is made as easy as possible for them, which I think has skewed their sense of values, perspective and discipline. The potential is still there and just the same as it's always been, but kids today are a product of the parenting they've received which is ultimately why they're overwhelmingly lazy, self-involved, spoiled and apathetic.
When my parents were kids in the 50's and 60's, if they weren't in school or asleep, they were working or helping out in the home. My father had two jobs at the age of 12 (one 6am-8am supplying milk trucks, the other in the evenings helping fishing boats on the town's wharf) as did his six brothers, all to help support the family. My mother was considered 'spoiled', as the eldest daughter, all she had to do was cook, clean and take care of her baby siblings. When I was 12, I was getting fat playing Donkey Kong Country and drinking chocolate milk. Childhoods have changed, and it's making us weak.
So I'm getting laid off after teaching English at a Catholic high school. My position has led me to some downright frightening experiences, mostly with how educated the next generation will be.
For instance, teenage overall knowledge, basic reading and writing skills has declined!
Kids don't read. Plain and simple. Ask yourselves, how many youths ages 13-19 actually sit down with a book and read?....excluding Harry Potter and Twilight. Not many. In fact I believe technology has a negative effect on kids, especially the internet, texting, etc... Kids read more Facebook pages than they do pages of a book.
Another thing I have noticed is their overall writing skills. I graded the English regents, which New York State does every year and noticed some idiotic mistakes. For instance, a junior spelled the word "pretty" on the exam "pritty." That is just one of many that I've noticed.
The main thing I wanted to through out there was their urge to read. Most students are ambivalent about classic novels or authors.
One story I found remarkable was when I was observing a 12th grade Honors English class:
Mr. F: Ok, does anyone know who Jonathan Swift is?
not one student raises his/her hand. I raise mine...
Mr. F: well, its nice to know that the other English teacher knows.
Jonathan Swift: master of satirical writing and author of Gulliver's Travels and a Modest Proposal.
I taught freshmen English. Vocabulary was another mediocrity!
While doing routine vocab words in our workbook, one of the synonyms of the word in question was "acclaim." One student had the gall to ask me what it meant. At first I thought she was being funny, but my incense turned to astonishment when she was actually serious!
On a lighter note, I've noticed that many words we have done actually appear on or as Magic cards (Confiscate, rustic Clachan, Opt.....etc) I honestly considered telling my students to start playing MTG to enhance their vocab skills.
Anyways, perhaps I am being harsh, or even bias. But honestly, has anyone else experienced this?
Why is it important for students to read the classics?
I'll conclude on one final note:
Even though I will not be working at this school next year, I received the summer reading list. If I ever saw a bigger insult to an already injured youth, it is the foul make-up of the summer reading books put forth by my very own colleges!
In all honesty, the faculty made categories that would entice students to read. One was so aptly called "Chick Lit." The books included:
"The Beach Street Knitting Society and Yarn Club," by Gil McNeil
"The Girl Next Door," by Elizabeth Noble
"The Icing on the Cupcake," by Jennifer Ross
What kind of example is this to set for out youth? There are NO classical novels on the list whatsoever. The majority consists of mediocre contemporary fiction which have previously appeared on Best-Seller Lists. Is that what we have degraded ourselves to? Reading what sells as to reading what enhances our own cognition?
As someone who's working on his Ph.D. in English, I you'll pardon me for saying "horse☺☺☺☺."
Every generation since we've been tracking this has wailed disconsolately about the falling aptitude of modern youth, and every generation has been wrong. In the 1840s, Harvard did the very first studies on the incoming writing capabilities of their incoming freshmen, and discovered that 40% failed their 'simple' writing exams. This has been the standard... pretty much ever since; a general antipathy towards reading has followed along ever since the radio became a household item (and, arguably, even before).
The problem, frankly, isn't with our students. It's with our teachers; we are all hypereducated individuals that specialize in a very specific area- generally, literature. We know everythign that we consider to be important- vocab, libraries of classics, etc.,- and are shocked when other people don't know what we know.
The bottom line that we have to come to terms with is that so-called 'classics' are classics not because they're particularly entertaining to read, but because they stand up well to critical analysis. You and I know, read, and love these books because they make us think about what's going on- us! You're comparing yourself, with at least a baccalaureate college education to high schoolers. Is it any surprise that they can't measure up?
When I teach my (college) freshmen, I can't stand at the front of the class and yammer on about how awesome Swift was (and I love him. I'm taking one of my two specialties in the long 18th century), because my students don't give a rat's ass. He's a Dead White Man who wrote about a societal context which no longer exists- the very height of irrelevance to them. If you change the topic of conversation to, say, Martin Luther King, Jr., however, ears begin to perk up. If we talk about the language of modern politicians, those ears perk up even more.
What I'm saying, in short, is that you're much better off engaging students on their own level, rather than yammer on about Dead White Men. They'll learn the same things- remember, this is what we're really after- and maybe, just maybe, they'll enjoy themselves doing it.
The average lion is approximately 190 cm long and 60 cm wide = 11400 cm2 = 0.00000114 km2
Now, if we take that times a trillion we get 11,400,000 km2 of lion.
Before you blame anyone, blame the American education system which rewards people who "work hard" rather than people who know the subject better.
Wait, what? I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I am a rather talented student, school just came naturally to me, and in the arena of knowing the subject best, I was usually in the top group. I graduated 2nd. The girl that graduated Valedictorian, was an amazingly hard worker. She was able to pull through things and get the job done, no matter how daunting the task. Sometimes for me, that was difficult, and I gave up and got B's in 2 classes my Junior year (that was giving up for me). She, however, did not. She had the same classes, and a very similar stress level, I cracked, she did not.
Did I achieve less? No. Was she "rewarded" more than I? No. I remember seeing some kids in my Trigonometry class that would talk about studying all night for a chapter test, not a final, a CHAPTER test. And they would get like a 77-80 on it. I don't care who you were, but you couldn't possibly take that win from them. They were so excited that they had achieved their goal through hard work.
Now, whilst I do not agree with putting kids in advanced math or english classes like that unless that is what they excel at and want to do in life, they met the challenge, they overcame it, and they were rewarded for it. Not more than how maybe I or another A student was, but they were still rewarded for it.
If you want to blame anything on the American education system, blame the fact that in elementary school and junior high administrators are VERY reluctant to hold children back. Why? Because they won't get the funding for that kid's head being counted in the next grade. So what do they do? They keep pushing them farther and farther up the academic ladder, when they got lost a LONG time ago. And that just sets them up for failure in high school, plain and simple. And in most cases, the problem could have been solved just by repeating a single grade, and getting a better grasp upon the material.
And that last problem, in most cases, must be rectified by the student's hard work. And if so, more power to them. They understand that, for this world to work right, you must work hard for what you want. Nothing will be given, at least, nothing that is worth something.
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I blame the education system partially. In my experience, though there were programs, there was a huge hesitancy by teachers and other faculty to encourage students who were gifted in both math and/or reading. These kids, and I was, sort of looked down on by our teachers and some of them just threw packets at us and sent us to the back of the class with no instruction. On top of that, programs in my state (Maine) are being cut like crazy due to budget problems. Not to mention the schedules of the three public schools are being mashed into one uniform schedule. The weighting system treats the advanced math program just like a regular honors class. The honors classes are jokes (honestly) and the kids all cheat off of each other (I don't). The whole system is falling apart, and except for several children I know, nobody wants to learn. They don't care about school or making straight A's, they just get their work done and are happy with whatever they get.
For me, the grade is the reward and the incentive to do well, knowing that I did well is enough for me. I guess I just have really high standards or whatever.
Now on the subject of hard classes, I agree with you cthuludude. I know several kids who try their hardest in our math class and study all night, and still end up with 80s. But you know what? They're perfectly happy with that and ecstatic that they at least passed. I find that the higher in a class level you get, the harder driven the kids are.
Kids today aren't less intelligent, they're just lazy, self-involved, sheltered and apathetic.
The slate is there to be filled with knowledge, they're more than capable, they just don't make the effort. Largely, I suspect, because they're raised to believe they're special little beams of perfect radiant light and teachers are increasingly more just talking at students as children rather than engaging them as people. Kids lack discipline these days (which I believe was less the case in generations past) and teaching methods are based on the assumption that students are disciplined.
The truth of the matter is that kids don't care. They don't have the patience for school because everything else about their lives is immediate and served up on an easy platter for them. School is an arduous task, and one which has no apparent value to the average teen. They're told that they have to go, have to get good grades, have to study, have to sit quietly, have to read, have to write, etc, etc. All of this adds up to a huge wall that keeps the average teen from becoming engaged by learning. Adults made it a chore that they're forced to do.
Which is on us as parents and as teachers. If teens are getting crappier, a significant portion of that is on us because we made them that way.
Quite honestly, this post rings true. I graduated high school a little over one month ago tied for second place in my class. I consider myself to be very intelligent.
My experiences in high school tell me that, like the quoted poster suggests, the tabula rasa is still there to be filled in. However, there is no drive anymore. Myself and the other eleven people in our top ten (ties) except one all have terrible work ethics. We did just enough to stay on top, because it mattered that much. Those who settled in the middle of the class did the work to stay there, because it mattered that much. Those in the bottom (save a few) did the work or lack thereof to stay there because it mattered that much to them.
The number of people in my high school class that truly couldn't handle the material *might* fill up a single classroom. My class had over 350 people in it.
Pardon me if this next topic has since been resolved, I only read the first two pages of the thread.
As for reading classical literature, I honestly do not believe it to be of the utmost importance in cultivating a questioning and introspective mind. I can only speak for my personal experiences, but I sure as hell Sparknoted a good 60% of the required reading lists. Why then, do I believe that they are not necessarily required in all instances? I cultivated my own questioning and introspective mind. As a child in elementary through middle school, I filled bookcases with novels upon novels that I had read. The number of classical works could be counted on one mutilated hand. I read what was interesting to me.
Given my experiences, I truly believe that if you give a child equal parts discipline and exposure to subject matter that they are interested in, that child will reach and maybe exceed the expectations put before them. This has not changed with my generation.
I always like people talking about the decline of the next generation. It's not like it's never been said before.
Apparently everyone else in the previous generations have been such intellectual hot-shots. The funny thing is that most people here are probably just big pseudo-intellectuals.
Like one of the guys above me said - our intelligence isn't declining; the drive to learn is.
I can remember when I was in 5th or 6th grade - going into my junior year now. Back then, I came to school ready to learn, I wanted to know how stuff worked.
Now, I feel like I know all the stuff I need to know - the question keeps coming back: "When will I actually use this in real life?"
Aside from the obvious answer: "Oh, on your next test," the answer is "Maybe once or twice, perhaps more."
So, if I only need to know it once or twice, can't I just look it up then? Sure it might take a bit longer then, but then I can skip this boring class, and not have to worry about it until then, if it even ever happens that I need it. If it turns out that I need it more, I can learn it later.
I am a High Honors student, and I spend maybe 15 minutes, if that(often none), on my homework at home, or study whatsoever. When/if I study, its the period right before the test, in the hallway on the way to the test, whatever. When I do homework, I do it during my free periods. I maintain just the right grade to stay on honors(we get free periods instead of study halls if we do), and I make High Honors for about half the year to get my parents off my back about how I do no homework. I sleep in class, zone out half the time, text, hardly pay attention unless the topic is interesting to me.
One of my friends does the same thing as me, and so does another. One gets higher grades than I do, another gets slightly lower. The only people who try hard for their grades in my class are the girls; who consistently score the same as, or slightly lower than me. They also tend to say: OMGAWD I FAILED TEST when they get a C+. I just shake it off, and ace the next test.
So yeah, maybe I'm smarter than the average bear; or maybe I'm not, and people are just stupid, and I'm normal. That didn't make any sense at all, and I forgot what metaphor I was trying to make so...
Of course, with regard to the OP, and people misspelling simple words like 'pretty' - I'm fairly certain that there were stupid kids in your school too, you just can't remember them.
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Like one of the guys above me said - our intelligence isn't declining; the drive to learn is.
I can remember when I was in 5th or 6th grade - going into my junior year now. Back then, I came to school ready to learn, I wanted to know how stuff worked.
Now, I feel like I know all the stuff I need to know - the question keeps coming back: "When will I actually use this in real life?"
Aside from the obvious answer: "Oh, on your next test," the answer is "Maybe once or twice, perhaps more."
So, if I only need to know it once or twice, can't I just look it up then? Sure it might take a bit longer then, but then I can skip this boring class, and not have to worry about it until then, if it even ever happens that I need it. If it turns out that I need it more, I can learn it later.
I am a High Honors student, and I spend maybe 15 minutes, if that(often none), on my homework at home, or study whatsoever. When/if I study, its the period right before the test, in the hallway on the way to the test, whatever. When I do homework, I do it during my free periods. I maintain just the right grade to stay on honors(we get free periods instead of study halls if we do), and I make High Honors for about half the year to get my parents off my back about how I do no homework. I sleep in class, zone out half the time, text, hardly pay attention unless the topic is interesting to me.
One of my friends does the same thing as me, and so does another. One gets higher grades than I do, another gets slightly lower. The only people who try hard for their grades in my class are the girls; who consistently score the same as, or slightly lower than me. They also tend to say: OMGAWD I FAILED TEST when they get a C+. I just shake it off, and ace the next test.
So yeah, maybe I'm smarter than the average bear; or maybe I'm not, and people are just stupid, and I'm normal. That didn't make any sense at all, and I forgot what metaphor I was trying to make so...
Of course, with regard to the OP, and people misspelling simple words like 'pretty' - I'm fairly certain that there were stupid kids in your school too, you just can't remember them.
It's cultural connectivity and expression for social and material benefit. Really look at what connectivity between consumerism and writing has done on the internet with the explosion of fanfiction. Instead of drawing from the the classics and mythology, we build off of stuff like Cthluluu or Pokemon or whatever kids are into these days.
However, if you look at the most successful synthesis of modern and classical works in the last few years was Harry Potter. Jo Roweling had an excellent grasp of how to write well, build a world, and make it livable. What I find more disappointing actually is the focus on people emulating precisely their favorite characters in a television show and mixing in their own characters to create a new type of world.
While I know that classics such as Dante's Inferno did indeed "rip off" several constructs from other stories and Jo Rowling wasn't altogether nuanced in some of her concepts, but building a synthesized pastiche is a lot more favorable than building something off of preconceived and already well constructed characters that are still relatively modern and are owned by other people.
Putting a new spin on Satan or some other noncopyrighted work makes more economic sense to retain wholesale ownership of your own intellectual property for later exploitation than making another story with Jace Baleran sleeping with Garruk. If anything for commercial success, Anne Rice certainly proved that sexual fantasies about bondage coupled with good writing mixed in with a few vampires makes for a profitable book.
However, that is also the major issue with scale. Anne Rice is able to sell her sexual fantasy works and now Christian works to the public, yet the common person has no such way to hope for such recognition and material success for writing talent. Look at the revolution you see with technical literacy and people creating videos for youtube and video game supplemental materials. It is quite simply done because there is a societal connection to encourage those enterprises with tangible rewards common to the average person of respectable skill. In the larger industries for music and writing, you just don't see that much encouragement as you do for sports.
Science as a complete institution lacks connectivity between lab and market place as there's a warped nexus where information is disconnected and skewed to the wrong kinds of competition. Publishing papers doesn't make for new markets, but X-games with working prototypes do.
The overall question is one of scale, connectivity, value, and cost for individuals to be wanton to engage in specific works. Furthermore, I also disagree with you that "people are getting lazier and don't like to learn." They like to learn when driven to do so, but are opportunistic about what they retain and skills they build.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
What is truly funny, is the way people hold Democracy on a pedestal even with confronted with the total idiocracy of the populace writ large. Truly astonishing.
Maybe Im an exception to the rule but I do enjoy to read, and not harry potter in fact I hate the set of books. Though I do agree that many people in my generation are just plain dumb, I've had people say they were gonna drive to italy durring his summer.
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What is truly funny, is the way people hold Democracy on a pedestal even with confronted with the total idiocracy of the populace writ large. Truly astonishing.
Me and a friend (Also a teenager. :P) were actually discussing this. We were discussing how not everyone really pays attention to politics and just bandwagon the parties or on votes for laws, propositions, etc, which is bad if it is so for democrats, which, sadly, probably does happen. I can't say that I'm a Republican... I'd be a liberal Republican (If one exists) at best, but, yeah. At the moment I'm leaning towards R rather than D until a very big portion of the population actually starts to pay attention to politics (And understands it; I honestly can't say I'm a big-shot when it comes to politics, but I DO pay attention to politics. That, and I want to learn more about it so I can further grasp it. I sometimes read up propositions and the like in the small books that my parents get a few days before voting day. I watch the CSPAN or something channel occasionally, that shows what actually happens behind the scenes.), then I'll go back to being a [Liberal] Democrat. I'd rather have a temporary Republic than a Democracy with uninformed people.
The only bad thing is that there's the possible cheats and Republicans that get away being in office even though they don't do a good job, but get voted in because of crowd "preference".
Which also sort of disappoints me of being a liberal/believing in liberalism. Some bandwagon because of the change it brings, etc, "change is always good" and crap that Obama started. Change IS good. Just... make sure it's good, legal, and helpful.
I really don't think this is a new phenomenon... but the onset of lazy technology hasn't helped. Many people get whipped into shape during college or in real life work experiences... and those that don't end up suffering for it. I certainly know my fair share of idiot 36 year olds... but isn't that the choice in life? Those that lean back and coast without trying to achieve something rarely end up in happy productive lives... and they usually are aware of this fact.
I love this thread because I was just discussing this with my friend at work today. I just graduated from high school about a month ago and I am set to go to one of the best engineering schools in my area. But I am a salutorian or even in the top ten. My work ethic would get me there it is just my school babies those who are already successful which is total bull. My school has multiple technology based graduation strands that offer to us experience in our field of study. And this is a public school too. Let me continue though by saying this. of the thirty some odd people lucky enough to be apart of this program, only 12 of us got the additional part of our diploma. It was disgusting. These are kids my age who are gumming up perfectly good classroom space for people who want to learn. I honestly think that there needs to be something done about stuff like this cuz I am sure it isn't just happening at my old school. Everything from this thread I have read has been true about this generation and to be honest it really bites.
On the topic of democracy though, I sorta laughed reading that because it is true. Although we don't put it on a pedestal. The people are just told to worship it. One of the first things I did when I turned 18 was vote but I did some research before I did. Some people my age just went and voted to get out of class. So ultimately where do these issues stem from. Where are the examples being set?
writing isn't the only subject in decline. In my world history class sophomore year we were given a map and a list. we had to mark the places on the list down on the map... here about what the list was...
the oceans, arctic, indian, pacific, atlantic.
the united states
china
russia
the continents, europe, S. america, N america, africa, austrailia, asia, and antarctica.
The persian gulf.
the Mediterranean sea
only 2 out of the 20 students including myself got all of them right... only 4 got higher than a 90... there were people (american high school students) who honestly could not find the united states of America on a map.... thats sad.
And i know what you mean by not caring about writing and reading. its just so much easier to spark notes these days. I took a writing course, and most of the other kids had no idea how they could write an essay or read a full book in as short as a week.... sad.
i say this as a recent high school grad.
The american education system is failing its students. and failing its country. AND NO ONE CARES.
ps. proud to say i have never read harry potter or twilight...(wont even see the twilight movies.)
Me and a friend (Also a teenager. :P) were actually discussing this. We were discussing how not everyone really pays attention to politics and just bandwagon the parties or on votes for laws, propositions, etc, which is bad if it is so for democrats, which, sadly, probably does happen. I can't say that I'm a Republican... I'd be a liberal Republican (If one exists) at best, but, yeah. At the moment I'm leaning towards R rather than D until a very big portion of the population actually starts to pay attention to politics (And understands it; I honestly can't say I'm a big-shot when it comes to politics, but I DO pay attention to politics. That, and I want to learn more about it so I can further grasp it. I sometimes read up propositions and the like in the small books that my parents get a few days before voting day. I watch the CSPAN or something channel occasionally, that shows what actually happens behind the scenes.), then I'll go back to being a [Liberal] Democrat. I'd rather have a temporary Republic than a Democracy with uninformed people.
The only bad thing is that there's the possible cheats and Republicans that get away being in office even though they don't do a good job, but get voted in because of crowd "preference".
Which also sort of disappoints me of being a liberal/believing in liberalism. Some bandwagon because of the change it brings, etc, "change is always good" and crap that Obama started. Change IS good. Just... make sure it's good, legal, and helpful.
Obama is Bush V2.0. Democrats and Republicans are the same. Left/Right is a false dichotomy. Liberalism was hijacked in the early 20th Century by progressives. Today, liberalism is the complete and total opposite of its true meaning. Liberalism stood for individualism, liberty, free-markets, free-trade, peace. Liberalism today, is libertarianism. I am a libertarian (And not the ☺☺☺☺ed up Randian hermitism).
It is no wonder Thomas Jefferson called Democracy mob rule. Frederic Bastiat rightfully shown its true colors as the plunder of everyone by everyone, and De Tocqueville recognition that America, and the rest of the world would falter and die when driven down the path of Democracy. Democracy, by its very nature leads to divisiveness, conflict, and despotism. Why anyone would stand for that is really beyond my understanding. I am so far outside the dialectic in todays philosophical and political world. I am more at home in the comfort of 19th and 18th Century Enlightenment liberalism.
If you would fancy to read just one or two polemic works I recommend Frederic Bastiats The Law, and Albert J. Nock's Our Enemy, the State.
Hopefully Ron Paul can wake more people up to the lunacy that people are deluged in. Let's End the Fed, End the Income Tax, End the Empire, and End the Welfare State. Let people be free to choose their path in life. Their vices, and follies. Their choices and the responsibility that comes along. State paternalism is tyranny. No one has any responsibility any more. It's all taken care for you. Our society is wrecked and degenerating. Why would the Government ever want an educated populace? End compulsory public education. Hopefully more people will pick up works by John Taylor Gatto & John Holt.
I see a lot of bashing on this generation but really, was the last generation SO smart? You seem to be comparing this generation only to Einstein-esque personalities. What makes the last generation so great? Seriously, how can you complain about the downfall of teenage intelligence when you don't have a comparison that's based on fact and not emotion?
A question to the "previous" generation:
Typically, what year of school did most people take Calculus?
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Are you familiar with the reasoning that using old ideas in a new way can be called originality? Also, have you even read the book? Are you basing your opinions on what you immeadiatly saw without actually knowing anything about the subject? God, I know that there is a word for that...
Damn, I can't think of it. Oi vell. Also, what did you think about the colorizing of B&W movies? Would it not look right? I want you opinion, you seem to have watched a lot of B&Ws.
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The other problem, one I feel is much more alarming, is the model of "giving up" that the older generation has laid out for the youth. When youth sees adults giving up on something they grasp as simple, they tend to adopt that stance towards things they find difficult. I mean, after all, when try hard when you get by fine as things were going.
The solution should seem easy then, we must instill in the youth, and subsequently the adults, the old fires of hard work that our nation was once built on. It must become the norm, cool and hip once again to speak properly, take an interest in news, read a book.
This however, is a far cry dream to the stark contrast of reality in which we live.
Sidenote:
http://www.egodialogues.com/words-language/huxley-orwell.php
An interesting view.
To someone who has watched them many times - yes, they would look different.
B&W films have a great historical context in the fact that technicolor wasn't available or very limited and expensive.
Think of it as painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. You are re-altering art for a personally jealousy, selfishness or whatever.
And as to the comment about the book. I have read it! See my point above (I've included these helpful arrows) ^^^^^^^^^^^^
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The slate is there to be filled with knowledge, they're more than capable, they just don't make the effort. Largely, I suspect, because they're raised to believe they're special little beams of perfect radiant light and teachers are increasingly more just talking at students as children rather than engaging them as people. Kids lack discipline these days (which I believe was less the case in generations past) and teaching methods are based on the assumption that students are disciplined.
The truth of the matter is that kids don't care. They don't have the patience for school because everything else about their lives is immediate and served up on an easy platter for them. School is an arduous task, and one which has no apparent value to the average teen. They're told that they have to go, have to get good grades, have to study, have to sit quietly, have to read, have to write, etc, etc. All of this adds up to a huge wall that keeps the average teen from becoming engaged by learning. Adults made it a chore that they're forced to do.
Which is on us as parents and as teachers. If teens are getting crappier, a significant portion of that is on us because we made them that way.
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Yep. It's true everyone I know is like that
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The potential is there to be harnessed, but there's multiple facets/aspects that are the cause of the decline in the use of peoples' brains, rather than the actual decline in intelligence. The saddest part is that since the ball started rolling, it has only becoming catastrophically larger over time.
It partly comes down to the person's willingness to learn, if that isn't there, then they are refusing to help themselves. Again, relating to what mikeyG said.
On a side note, most people don't know how lucky they are to even be alive, to even know how everything wound up the way it has. History itself is a good way to learn, but repeats as we know, in the most obscure ways sometimes. Really is sad to reflect on the ignorance expressed by most younger people I know. At the same time, trying to inform some of the youths sometimes seems to be all too titanic of a task (refer to the point made above).
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mikeyG is correct, though I don't know that it's really any different than before. I think every generation has its shining star students, and behind them is a parent and maybe an educator really doing things right. Behind a lot of the failing kids you're going to see a lot of failing parents and educators as well. However, I don't think this is anything new, I think it's the way its always been. Does technology exacerbate the problem? Maybe- it's really a pretty complex question to answer. At the end of the day though, success or failure exists at the level of the individual and the quality of support they receive.
In fact, one of my friend in my english class had the balls to read War and Peace!
I do agree, about the technology though. I think the allure of the internet and other devices is just too much for kids to take. It's just a big time waster that is a bit fun.
Also I don't know what you mean about stupid books the school reccomends. For us, we had to read The Merchant of Venice and The Chrysalids for our class! Maybe it's different in the states?
Just my two cents.
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I don't disagree, but I've always had the impression that generations past were a bit harder on kids. They had more chores, greater responsibilities, grown-ups were more strict, there were fewer distractions (tv, music, games, movies, etc, etc), they often had to work or help raise other kids in the family, and so on. I think, in many ways, we've become too easy on kids. They're spoiled and everything is made as easy as possible for them, which I think has skewed their sense of values, perspective and discipline. The potential is still there and just the same as it's always been, but kids today are a product of the parenting they've received which is ultimately why they're overwhelmingly lazy, self-involved, spoiled and apathetic.
When my parents were kids in the 50's and 60's, if they weren't in school or asleep, they were working or helping out in the home. My father had two jobs at the age of 12 (one 6am-8am supplying milk trucks, the other in the evenings helping fishing boats on the town's wharf) as did his six brothers, all to help support the family. My mother was considered 'spoiled', as the eldest daughter, all she had to do was cook, clean and take care of her baby siblings. When I was 12, I was getting fat playing Donkey Kong Country and drinking chocolate milk. Childhoods have changed, and it's making us weak.
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As someone who's working on his Ph.D. in English, I you'll pardon me for saying "horse☺☺☺☺."
Every generation since we've been tracking this has wailed disconsolately about the falling aptitude of modern youth, and every generation has been wrong. In the 1840s, Harvard did the very first studies on the incoming writing capabilities of their incoming freshmen, and discovered that 40% failed their 'simple' writing exams. This has been the standard... pretty much ever since; a general antipathy towards reading has followed along ever since the radio became a household item (and, arguably, even before).
The problem, frankly, isn't with our students. It's with our teachers; we are all hypereducated individuals that specialize in a very specific area- generally, literature. We know everythign that we consider to be important- vocab, libraries of classics, etc.,- and are shocked when other people don't know what we know.
The bottom line that we have to come to terms with is that so-called 'classics' are classics not because they're particularly entertaining to read, but because they stand up well to critical analysis. You and I know, read, and love these books because they make us think about what's going on- us! You're comparing yourself, with at least a baccalaureate college education to high schoolers. Is it any surprise that they can't measure up?
When I teach my (college) freshmen, I can't stand at the front of the class and yammer on about how awesome Swift was (and I love him. I'm taking one of my two specialties in the long 18th century), because my students don't give a rat's ass. He's a Dead White Man who wrote about a societal context which no longer exists- the very height of irrelevance to them. If you change the topic of conversation to, say, Martin Luther King, Jr., however, ears begin to perk up. If we talk about the language of modern politicians, those ears perk up even more.
What I'm saying, in short, is that you're much better off engaging students on their own level, rather than yammer on about Dead White Men. They'll learn the same things- remember, this is what we're really after- and maybe, just maybe, they'll enjoy themselves doing it.
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Wait, what? I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I am a rather talented student, school just came naturally to me, and in the arena of knowing the subject best, I was usually in the top group. I graduated 2nd. The girl that graduated Valedictorian, was an amazingly hard worker. She was able to pull through things and get the job done, no matter how daunting the task. Sometimes for me, that was difficult, and I gave up and got B's in 2 classes my Junior year (that was giving up for me). She, however, did not. She had the same classes, and a very similar stress level, I cracked, she did not.
Did I achieve less? No. Was she "rewarded" more than I? No. I remember seeing some kids in my Trigonometry class that would talk about studying all night for a chapter test, not a final, a CHAPTER test. And they would get like a 77-80 on it. I don't care who you were, but you couldn't possibly take that win from them. They were so excited that they had achieved their goal through hard work.
Now, whilst I do not agree with putting kids in advanced math or english classes like that unless that is what they excel at and want to do in life, they met the challenge, they overcame it, and they were rewarded for it. Not more than how maybe I or another A student was, but they were still rewarded for it.
If you want to blame anything on the American education system, blame the fact that in elementary school and junior high administrators are VERY reluctant to hold children back. Why? Because they won't get the funding for that kid's head being counted in the next grade. So what do they do? They keep pushing them farther and farther up the academic ladder, when they got lost a LONG time ago. And that just sets them up for failure in high school, plain and simple. And in most cases, the problem could have been solved just by repeating a single grade, and getting a better grasp upon the material.
And that last problem, in most cases, must be rectified by the student's hard work. And if so, more power to them. They understand that, for this world to work right, you must work hard for what you want. Nothing will be given, at least, nothing that is worth something.
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On the topic of Moat:
For me, the grade is the reward and the incentive to do well, knowing that I did well is enough for me. I guess I just have really high standards or whatever.
Now on the subject of hard classes, I agree with you cthuludude. I know several kids who try their hardest in our math class and study all night, and still end up with 80s. But you know what? They're perfectly happy with that and ecstatic that they at least passed. I find that the higher in a class level you get, the harder driven the kids are.
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Quite honestly, this post rings true. I graduated high school a little over one month ago tied for second place in my class. I consider myself to be very intelligent.
My experiences in high school tell me that, like the quoted poster suggests, the tabula rasa is still there to be filled in. However, there is no drive anymore. Myself and the other eleven people in our top ten (ties) except one all have terrible work ethics. We did just enough to stay on top, because it mattered that much. Those who settled in the middle of the class did the work to stay there, because it mattered that much. Those in the bottom (save a few) did the work or lack thereof to stay there because it mattered that much to them.
The number of people in my high school class that truly couldn't handle the material *might* fill up a single classroom. My class had over 350 people in it.
Pardon me if this next topic has since been resolved, I only read the first two pages of the thread.
As for reading classical literature, I honestly do not believe it to be of the utmost importance in cultivating a questioning and introspective mind. I can only speak for my personal experiences, but I sure as hell Sparknoted a good 60% of the required reading lists. Why then, do I believe that they are not necessarily required in all instances? I cultivated my own questioning and introspective mind. As a child in elementary through middle school, I filled bookcases with novels upon novels that I had read. The number of classical works could be counted on one mutilated hand. I read what was interesting to me.
Given my experiences, I truly believe that if you give a child equal parts discipline and exposure to subject matter that they are interested in, that child will reach and maybe exceed the expectations put before them. This has not changed with my generation.
Apparently everyone else in the previous generations have been such intellectual hot-shots. The funny thing is that most people here are probably just big pseudo-intellectuals.
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I can remember when I was in 5th or 6th grade - going into my junior year now. Back then, I came to school ready to learn, I wanted to know how stuff worked.
Now, I feel like I know all the stuff I need to know - the question keeps coming back: "When will I actually use this in real life?"
Aside from the obvious answer: "Oh, on your next test," the answer is "Maybe once or twice, perhaps more."
So, if I only need to know it once or twice, can't I just look it up then? Sure it might take a bit longer then, but then I can skip this boring class, and not have to worry about it until then, if it even ever happens that I need it. If it turns out that I need it more, I can learn it later.
I am a High Honors student, and I spend maybe 15 minutes, if that(often none), on my homework at home, or study whatsoever. When/if I study, its the period right before the test, in the hallway on the way to the test, whatever. When I do homework, I do it during my free periods. I maintain just the right grade to stay on honors(we get free periods instead of study halls if we do), and I make High Honors for about half the year to get my parents off my back about how I do no homework. I sleep in class, zone out half the time, text, hardly pay attention unless the topic is interesting to me.
One of my friends does the same thing as me, and so does another. One gets higher grades than I do, another gets slightly lower. The only people who try hard for their grades in my class are the girls; who consistently score the same as, or slightly lower than me. They also tend to say: OMGAWD I FAILED TEST when they get a C+. I just shake it off, and ace the next test.
So yeah, maybe I'm smarter than the average bear; or maybe I'm not, and people are just stupid, and I'm normal. That didn't make any sense at all, and I forgot what metaphor I was trying to make so...
Of course, with regard to the OP, and people misspelling simple words like 'pretty' - I'm fairly certain that there were stupid kids in your school too, you just can't remember them.
It's cultural connectivity and expression for social and material benefit. Really look at what connectivity between consumerism and writing has done on the internet with the explosion of fanfiction. Instead of drawing from the the classics and mythology, we build off of stuff like Cthluluu or Pokemon or whatever kids are into these days.
However, if you look at the most successful synthesis of modern and classical works in the last few years was Harry Potter. Jo Roweling had an excellent grasp of how to write well, build a world, and make it livable. What I find more disappointing actually is the focus on people emulating precisely their favorite characters in a television show and mixing in their own characters to create a new type of world.
While I know that classics such as Dante's Inferno did indeed "rip off" several constructs from other stories and Jo Rowling wasn't altogether nuanced in some of her concepts, but building a synthesized pastiche is a lot more favorable than building something off of preconceived and already well constructed characters that are still relatively modern and are owned by other people.
Putting a new spin on Satan or some other noncopyrighted work makes more economic sense to retain wholesale ownership of your own intellectual property for later exploitation than making another story with Jace Baleran sleeping with Garruk. If anything for commercial success, Anne Rice certainly proved that sexual fantasies about bondage coupled with good writing mixed in with a few vampires makes for a profitable book.
However, that is also the major issue with scale. Anne Rice is able to sell her sexual fantasy works and now Christian works to the public, yet the common person has no such way to hope for such recognition and material success for writing talent. Look at the revolution you see with technical literacy and people creating videos for youtube and video game supplemental materials. It is quite simply done because there is a societal connection to encourage those enterprises with tangible rewards common to the average person of respectable skill. In the larger industries for music and writing, you just don't see that much encouragement as you do for sports.
Science as a complete institution lacks connectivity between lab and market place as there's a warped nexus where information is disconnected and skewed to the wrong kinds of competition. Publishing papers doesn't make for new markets, but X-games with working prototypes do.
The overall question is one of scale, connectivity, value, and cost for individuals to be wanton to engage in specific works. Furthermore, I also disagree with you that "people are getting lazier and don't like to learn." They like to learn when driven to do so, but are opportunistic about what they retain and skills they build.
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Me and a friend (Also a teenager. :P) were actually discussing this. We were discussing how not everyone really pays attention to politics and just bandwagon the parties or on votes for laws, propositions, etc, which is bad if it is so for democrats, which, sadly, probably does happen. I can't say that I'm a Republican... I'd be a liberal Republican (If one exists) at best, but, yeah. At the moment I'm leaning towards R rather than D until a very big portion of the population actually starts to pay attention to politics (And understands it; I honestly can't say I'm a big-shot when it comes to politics, but I DO pay attention to politics. That, and I want to learn more about it so I can further grasp it. I sometimes read up propositions and the like in the small books that my parents get a few days before voting day. I watch the CSPAN or something channel occasionally, that shows what actually happens behind the scenes.), then I'll go back to being a [Liberal] Democrat. I'd rather have a temporary Republic than a Democracy with uninformed people.
The only bad thing is that there's the possible cheats and Republicans that get away being in office even though they don't do a good job, but get voted in because of crowd "preference".
Which also sort of disappoints me of being a liberal/believing in liberalism. Some bandwagon because of the change it brings, etc, "change is always good" and crap that Obama started. Change IS good. Just... make sure it's good, legal, and helpful.
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On the topic of democracy though, I sorta laughed reading that because it is true. Although we don't put it on a pedestal. The people are just told to worship it. One of the first things I did when I turned 18 was vote but I did some research before I did. Some people my age just went and voted to get out of class. So ultimately where do these issues stem from. Where are the examples being set?
the oceans, arctic, indian, pacific, atlantic.
the united states
china
russia
the continents, europe, S. america, N america, africa, austrailia, asia, and antarctica.
The persian gulf.
the Mediterranean sea
only 2 out of the 20 students including myself got all of them right... only 4 got higher than a 90... there were people (american high school students) who honestly could not find the united states of America on a map.... thats sad.
And i know what you mean by not caring about writing and reading. its just so much easier to spark notes these days. I took a writing course, and most of the other kids had no idea how they could write an essay or read a full book in as short as a week.... sad.
i say this as a recent high school grad.
The american education system is failing its students. and failing its country. AND NO ONE CARES.
ps. proud to say i have never read harry potter or twilight...(wont even see the twilight movies.)
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Obama is Bush V2.0. Democrats and Republicans are the same. Left/Right is a false dichotomy. Liberalism was hijacked in the early 20th Century by progressives. Today, liberalism is the complete and total opposite of its true meaning. Liberalism stood for individualism, liberty, free-markets, free-trade, peace. Liberalism today, is libertarianism. I am a libertarian (And not the ☺☺☺☺ed up Randian hermitism).
It is no wonder Thomas Jefferson called Democracy mob rule. Frederic Bastiat rightfully shown its true colors as the plunder of everyone by everyone, and De Tocqueville recognition that America, and the rest of the world would falter and die when driven down the path of Democracy. Democracy, by its very nature leads to divisiveness, conflict, and despotism. Why anyone would stand for that is really beyond my understanding. I am so far outside the dialectic in todays philosophical and political world. I am more at home in the comfort of 19th and 18th Century Enlightenment liberalism.
If you would fancy to read just one or two polemic works I recommend Frederic Bastiats The Law, and Albert J. Nock's Our Enemy, the State.
Hopefully Ron Paul can wake more people up to the lunacy that people are deluged in. Let's End the Fed, End the Income Tax, End the Empire, and End the Welfare State. Let people be free to choose their path in life. Their vices, and follies. Their choices and the responsibility that comes along. State paternalism is tyranny. No one has any responsibility any more. It's all taken care for you. Our society is wrecked and degenerating. Why would the Government ever want an educated populace? End compulsory public education. Hopefully more people will pick up works by John Taylor Gatto & John Holt.
Anyways, thats my two cents.
A question to the "previous" generation:
Typically, what year of school did most people take Calculus?