Honestly if you do not think you are in control of yourself I cannot do anything to convince you or anyone of it. I have cited examples from my own life that this is the case and that is really the best I can do in this situation. I can give you another example which is depression. I have an irregularity of serotonin in my brain which is supposed to make me unhappy all the time. Well brain....sucks to be you cause I'm happy, I chose it. Me. Not my brain. Not my genetics. They actually chose the other direction but I made my own choice.
Ooooookay then. Ignoring for a second the notion of suppressing psychological disorders via positive thinking, do you really think depression and sexual orientation are the same? It's a false analogy.
I have plenty. I'd argue that I probably have more personal perspective on this matter than you do.
Was a gay person you know's dad or mom gay? What about their mum and dad? Homosexuals aren't exactly reproducing like crazy so it doesn't make sense that more people would be gay every year if its genetic......Where is the logic?
I don't think you understand genetics. Or hormonal influences. Or environmental influences. Or any of the science behind this issue. Please, kindly educate yourself.
I would SEVERELY disagree that genetic homosexuality is a widely accepted idea.
Okay. If you want to be wrong, that's your choice.
Man, that's buckets of crazy there dmoney. Out of curiousity, should I control my urge to bone women so that I can have sex with men? I mean, if control is the only issue....
In my opinion, an actual label is unneeded. If he thinks he's attracted to men, that's all that really matters. He should explore his feelings, decide what's true for him, and go from there. He can decide later if the word 'gay' applies.
I will say that physical depression is a result of biological factors, all of which boil down to genetics. If YOU understood genetics you would understand that everything about our physical body is determined by our genetics. What I am saying is that our genetics are not the bottom line. Our minds are separate from our bodies and our choices originate from our minds. I know homosexuality and depression is a little different but I am trying to draw analogies about the genetic factors.
I can tell you are getting upset so I will leave the conversation but leave you with this question.
Why are you getting so upset over my proposing that you are in full control of yourself and your life and your existence? I mean if you "had a choice" would you change who you are? (this is obviously rhetorical and just meant to instigate critical thinking)
I look at myself every day and decide what I like and don't like and choose who I am. I honestly think it is important to a happy life and want everyone to be happy. There is nothing wrong with being gay, we all choose who we are and I don't like seeing people give up the choice in their life.
EDIT: If you decide that you WANT to bone men, then yes, you need to be doing what YOU want. Not what your physical body dictates.
Oh and I know, I thought about not dropping it but like seriously, both my parents have IQ's barely over 100 so I find it to be an accomplishment. I wasn't exactly a smart kid either, I had to work and study and learn to think better. Try reading The Art of Thinking, I swear my IQ went up 10 points just reading that book. Seriously, we control our physical existence.
I'm fairly sure that if a bunch of mind controlling aliens showed up and earth and made everyone try homosexual sex with each other for the viewing audience on back on Sharrleck 5 (or whatever planet), that almost everyone would enjoy it. It is sex after all, and sex is enjoyable. The only way you wouldn't enjoy it is if your lifelong moral conditioning prevented you from realizing that you were experiencing pleasure.
I right wing homophobe could have a battery operated toy where the sun don't shine and be like, "hmm, satisfying...shhh don't tell anyone". And does that mean he's gay? No, it just means that he's a typical homo sapian that has sensitive nerve endings in his butt like the rest of us. So, telling people to try it out and see if you like it is kind of bad advice...becuase all of us would fail that litmus test.
Ignore physicallity for the meantime and focus on your heart and guts. Companionship is more than love, sexuallity, attraction or feelings. Companionship is all about personal chemistry. Could you grow old together despite the lack or access of any of the previously mentioned factors? Divorce is high in both straight and gay communities. Both circles still seem to be chosing the wrong partners...likely becuase they focus too much on one or more of those factors.
Hmm...long post is long and I havn't really given you an answer. All I can really do is give you things to think about.
Why are you getting so upset over my proposing that you are in full control of yourself and your life and your existence?
The only thing that upsets me (though upset is an overstatement of my emotional commitment to this dialog with you) is that I fear what effect your ignorant words may have on impressionable and confused younger members here. They've got you telling them they can choose not to be gay (or whatever) and society making them feel that they'd be better off straight, and that's only setting them up for a whole lot of agony. The denial of self is rarely a fruitful path to take. This thread was created to aid in the healthy growth of a member, I feel your assertions are the complete opposite of healthy in this case.
We do have control over a great many aspects of ourselves. Sexual orientation is not one of them.
Realizing and accepting that I find men attractive as opposed to women, was an agonizing 5 year process that began when I hit puberty. I had a lot of friends growing up, and it was impossible for me to be close to someone without feeling like I wanted to be even closer... you could say, more than friends. Whereas all my friends were beginning to find women attractive, I didn't - as a matter of fact, I remember the first time I masturbated I got off thinking of one of my friends. My attraction to my friends as I grew up would manifest itself as jealousy, when they gave anyone else attention. It was ridiculous looking back, but I didn't fully understand what I was going through.
The more I thought about it, this was rather alarming. I began to wonder what was wrong with me? Why this abnormality? Why am I attracted to guys, and my friends, instead of all these girls they're drooling over?
From when I was 13 to about 17 years old, I pretended to be straight. I tried to act interested in girls, and make myself turned on by them. I imagined many sexual acts, but the fact of the matter was, I just didn't find them attractive. Instead I went through a lot of heart break, falling hard for friends who could not feel the same way towards me. When I came out to my family, my grandmother's first reaction was to tell me I should try being with a woman once because I wouldn't know until I tried.
Let's be bluntly honest: It's a bit difficult to have sex with a chick when you can't get your dick up.
My personal experience aside, I agree with Nai. Don't think of it in terms of labels, because to view yourself in terms of labels is to go through what you're feeling in fear. Put away the labels, don't think of what may or may not happen because of who you are. Explore your feelings, and decide for yourself. You'll always hear horror stories that are blown out of proportion by someone with a persecution complex, but the great majority of the time, whatever you fear is just being amplified by the unknown. The worst case scenario of exploring your feelings for men is it not being what you thought it would be, then life moves on and you know yourself that much better.
In the end, you are who you are, and there's no escaping it. You can accept it or run away from it, but it's up to you to explore and get to know yourself, even when something comes up you never expected.
I will say that physical depression is a result of biological factors, all of which boil down to genetics. If YOU understood genetics you would understand that everything about our physical body is determined by our genetics. What I am saying is that our genetics are not the bottom line. Our minds are separate from our bodies and our choices originate from our minds. I know homosexuality and depression is a little different but I am trying to draw analogies about the genetic factors.
I look at myself every day and decide what I like and don't like and choose who I am. I honestly think it is important to a happy life and want everyone to be happy. There is nothing wrong with being gay, we all choose who we are and I don't like seeing people give up the choice in their life.
EDIT: If you decide that you WANT to bone men, then yes, you need to be doing what YOU want. Not what your physical body dictates.
We control our physical existence to a point. But we do not entirely control our existence, and our choices do not all originate from our minds. [In other words: the subconscious exists. Also, our minds are created from our genetic code. Nature vs. Nurture, etc.,etc.]
And we are, in the end, tethered to our bodies. I'm sure you can 'choose' to be straight if you're gay and vice versa, but this requires a massive helping of self-denial and deception for the rest of your life [and outside influences decrying the opposite choice, most likely, to give you a reason to suppress].
It comes down to what you want - do you want to deceive and misrepresent your body in order to feel happy/normal/accepted, knowing that you will have to do it for the rest of your life, or do you want to just be what you want to be?
The problem that I think you don't see is that there are people who don't know what they want to be, but they think society wants them to be something [i.e. not gay], and then people, acting on the advice of 'I can do whatever I want!', go do that, even though they don't *really* want to. Obviously people should do what they want to do but making such a simple statement obscures the underlying logic.
/sarnath'd by mikey, mostly.
* In regards to the thread: I'd assume that the vulgar point would be the correct one. That is: Are you attracted to men [in a sexual way]? Are you attracted to women [in a sexual way]? If you say yes to both you're bisexual, no to the first and yes to the second you're hetero if a man and not if you're a woman, yes to the first and no to the second you're hetero if a woman and not if you're a man.
But how do you determine these preferences? Be adventurous, etc. ... I dunno. Watch a lot of porn? ... I have no idea.
Also, the guy in question isn't gay. He's possibly [probably?] bi. Why? Because gay people don't like women sexually. That's one of the definitions.
my mouth is full of winsome lies -
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
If the case were about liking genitalia, there are plenty of guys that will not go down on a girl... shock upon shock huh... well its the truth. Some people like fish, others like beef, some like both, some even prefer chicken over beef. The point is. What you like doesn't necessarily set forth on a specific path.
Id say, what would define this person as a Homosexual, would be if he enjoys more the company, attractions, and feelings towards men in general. Sure youll like 1 boy more than another, but if you can move from that boy to another boy, then odds are you are gay. Its how men like women, Most men cant think outside the ****** and figure if you love the poon then you are straight. and then comes questions like these when you feel attracted towards one specific boy.
If you are attracted towards this one specific male, then you may not be fully into men. If lets say it wasnt this one male and it were say another, would you like that one? I would say you have to have a longer / consecutive "likes" before you can define your self as either hetero or homo.
Some guys, will disagree with me, thats fine, they could if they want, but they have to ask them selves how many women have they truly been attracted to as opposed to how many men.
I can tell you that in my entire life span of 25 years, I have been attracted to:
7 women
0 men.
and these are specific women. So that I'm not entirely fascinated in all women, just specific women. They either look one way, or think one way, or act one way or another. etc... etc...
I can tell you that I like: Aggresive / 5'8" or under / round eyes / a little bit on the heavier end, Im not talking about floppy fat or any of the sorts, but i like some meat with my bones / Darker color hair, i dont mind blond though but i tend to like looking at darker hair color. Sometimes even Jet black. / lighter skin tones / intelligent (sorry but there be some dumb broads out there in the world.)
yes im really picky when it comes to the type of girl im into. But that defines to me what kind of women i like. Your definition may be entirely different.
If you want to know if you're gay or not here's a simple test.
Go to a male porn site.
If you can't even bring yourself to look at the screen then your straight .
If you can stare for while but then have to go to a female porn site to try and forget what you just saw then you are still straight but not homophobic.
If you aren't bothered by wangs flopping about then you're probably bi or gay.
If you start beating off then you're definitely gay.
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Why waste time thinking when you can spend it smashing.
Adding fire automatically makes everything awesome.
I have recently come to the conclusion that the gay/bi/straight labels are far too constricting for what most people actually are. I have come to find the term pansexual far more accurate to what people really are. It basically means you are attracted to the people you are attracted to, no unnecessary exclusions necessary. If I find a person attractive, then I do. Maybe it's mostly women, maybe it's mostly men, maybe it is a mix. Gay/Bi/Straight neglects the complexities of gender as well. A person may be male but gender identify female. Sexuality is a spectrum and the A, B or C bucket method of identification is inadequate.
If you want to know if you're gay or not here's a simple test.
Go to a male porn site.
If you can't even bring yourself to look at the screen then your straight .
If you can stare for while but then have to go to a female porn site to try and forget what you just saw then you are still straight but not homophobic.
If you aren't bothered by wangs flopping about then you're probably bi or gay.
If you start beating off then you're definitely gay.
It's not as black and white as this. Unless you're experienced with what a person goes through questioning their sexuality and having throughts that go against the so-called norm and the harsh realizations that come with questioning who you are, then I suggest you not try to make something so small and simple out of it.
This sort of nonsense doesn't take into account how easily one's true feelings are clouded by their mind reeling from sudden realization that you're going against what you've been raised to know as a deep-seeded supposed right and wrong in society.
Funny story: My 8th grade Science teacher was married to a man for 30 years; she and him had a few children together. I live in a small town, so word spread quickly when he left her for a man a couple towns away. Apparently he had been gay the entire time.
Funny story: My 8th grade Science teacher was married to a man for 30 years; she and him had a few children together. I live in a small town, so word spread quickly when he left her for a man a couple towns away. Apparently he had been gay the entire time.
I assume that all the psychological and emotional factors are not entirely known so this story, in my opinion, doesn't really catalyze your argument 100%. If anything this story shows that choice does control these emotions. They had children which would indicate there was some amount of sexual activity going on so if he was gay all along then according to the logic of others in this forum he either couldn't have gotten it up or some other problem would've arised. I see him leaving as a choice to change his sexual orientation.
Do NOT get me wrong, I do not not hate homosexuals or anything of the sort but I disagree that sexual orientation could be anything other than heterosexual at birth. My argument stems from the often heated debate of evolution, in particualr natural selection. It is the goal of a species to reproduce by nature and that is a fact. This makes me think that nurture playes a part in the skewing of orientation as well as personal choice.
Once again my argument may make people think that I hate homosexuals; but I do not. I have a really good friend that I worked with that was as "fabulous" as any gay person could be and I had no problem talking to him and being a friend to him. Do I hate him for being gay? No. Do I feel that his choice isn't exactly what it should be based on my moral beliefs etc. Yes.
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Sherp, your argument doesn't hold water. "Evolution" is exactly what skews it. If there are gay creatures, they don't reproduce. That's just about it. They don't contribute to the gene pool at all. So the fact that you have to have heterosexual relations to have kids means nothing in that respect.
Further, that story, sadly, isn't proof of anything either way. Either that man was gay the entire time and holding himself back (since most parents in the era of his childhood were VERY against homosexuality), or he was straight and changing. Or he was bisexual and his tastes changed. Or he just happened to enjoy that one man he went for. There could be any number of reasons for it, all as likely as the other.
...aaand of course this turned into an "origin of gay" debate.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about whether you're gay or not. If you feel like dating a guy, date a guy. If you meet a girl you like, pursue it. You'll figure out your personal identity with age and experience.
Personally, I've always taken the Agent Kay approach to big questions like that.
Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe.
Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat,
and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet.
Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
-Men in Black
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
Sherp, your argument doesn't hold water. "Evolution" is exactly what skews it. If there are gay creatures, they don't reproduce. That's just about it. They don't contribute to the gene pool at all. So the fact that you have to have heterosexual relations to have kids means nothing in that respect.
Further, that story, sadly, isn't proof of anything either way. Either that man was gay the entire time and holding himself back (since most parents in the era of his childhood were VERY against homosexuality), or he was straight and changing. Or he was bisexual and his tastes changed. Or he just happened to enjoy that one man he went for. There could be any number of reasons for it, all as likely as the other.
But if one belives that being gay isnt a choice then my argument is even better.
Natural Selction is defined:
"the process by which certain heritable traits—those that make it more likely for an organism to survive and successfully reproduce —become more common in a population over successive generations."
So if this is true then the genetic trait of homosexuality over the course of time would've quickly died out as the recessive trait would have been flushed out of a species almost entirely within one generation if the animals with the gene did not reproduce to pass it on.
So in my educated opinon while homosexuality may have been originally genetic; the fact that natural selection dictates that desirable traits are kept while less desirable traits are lost, it is a choice. There would not be a presence of a recessive "gay gene" save a random anomly, which wouldn't attest to the vast homosexual population if this had occured.
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But if one belives that being gay isnt a choice then my argument is even better.
Natural Selction is defined:
"the process by which certain heritable traits—those that make it more likely for an organism to survive and successfully reproduce —become more common in a population over successive generations."
So if this is true then the genetic trait of homosexuality over the course of time would've quickly died out as the recessive trait would have been flushed out of a species almost entirely within one generation if the animals with the gene did not reproduce to pass it on.
So in my educated opinon while homosexuality may have been originally genetic; the fact that natural selection dictates that desirable traits are kept while less desirable traits are lost, it is a choice. There would not be a presence of a recessive "gay gene" save a random anomly, which wouldn't attest to the vast homosexual population if this had occured.
Or maybe you are vastly over simplifying genetics and genetic expression. I know those AA/aa diagrams in high school were fun, but don't be fooled into thinking you have any kind of complete understanding of genetics. Genes are tied to chromosomes, you split half your chromosomes off to combine with your partner. Genes can be closely paired with other genes meaning that while one may seemingly impede reproductive success, the recessive gene could be carried on by another which grants far higher success in another way.
Look a sickle cell anemia, it carries a benefit and a deficit. Genetics is not black and white, just shades of gray.
But if one belives that being gay isnt a choice then my argument is even better.
Natural Selction is defined:
"the process by which certain heritable traits—those that make it more likely for an organism to survive and successfully reproduce —become more common in a population over successive generations."
So if this is true then the genetic trait of homosexuality over the course of time would've quickly died out as the recessive trait would have been flushed out of a species almost entirely within one generation if the animals with the gene did not reproduce to pass it on.
So in my educated opinon while homosexuality may have been originally genetic; the fact that natural selection dictates that desirable traits are kept while less desirable traits are lost, it is a choice. There would not be a presence of a recessive "gay gene" save a random anomly, which wouldn't attest to the vast homosexual population if this had occured.
Your assumption here is that non-heterosexuality is evolutionarily undesirable. Which, given that it hasn't been selected against at least over the course of written human history (and not to mention the occurances of non-heterosexuality in other animals), may be a false assumption. Scientists have been studying exactly that, but the research is very new and I don't believe we yet have the answer. One hypothesis is the 'super uncle' theory, that non-heterosexual individuals increase the survivability of children that are part of their kin group (a big part of this theory is that through the complexities of DNA and mitochondria, a person may be more closely related to siblings and nieces&nephews than to their own children), which in turn indirectly ensures the probably survival of that individual's genes (as well as the genetic soup that results in non-heterosexuality).
Remember that natural selection's definition of reproduce is not as simple as creating offspring through sexual activity (though it is obviously the primary means life uses). It's base definition is simply the passing of one's genetic information to the next generation. And the animal kingdom is full of examples of how that can be done in ways other than what you'd assume. And that can certainly affect what can be construed as a desirable trait. Evolution is as complex as the dynamics of sexuality and genetics.
What Mikey said is entirely accurate and is one of the leading trains of though at the moment (take it from the bio-nerd!). The other big one is that when genes for male homosexuality arise in women it increases fertility (or another trait that is evolutionarily desirable) which makes her more likely to have offspring. When it is expressed in men, the evolutionary downside is mitigated by the other gender's evolutionary benefits. Beyond this, there are a number of strongly hereditary illnesses (cystic fibrosis comes to mind) that have infertility as a side effect. And to top it off, we haven't even begun discussing environmental causes of homosexuality like uterine testosterone levels.
My point is this: homosexuality is no more of a choice than heterosexuality.
But back to the original question - I would say all sexuality falls onto a spectrum. On one end you have totally straight, never even began thinking about a man in any sexual way ever and on the other you have totally gay, never ever began thinking about a woman in a sexual manner. The fact is, most people fall somewhere between those two extremes. And for a large part, where on falls in a moving target.
To repeat almost every non-crazy thing said on this thread: There is nothing to be ashamed of in liking men or women. Just do what feels comfortable and think what you want to and you will be happier.
I don't really have a whole lot to give. User is male, age 18/19, from a small community in a red state. Has been attracted to women but recently began to have undeniable attraction to guys. He doesn't really have a great frame of reference to draw from here to really pinpoint his sexuality, so he asked me for advice, which is now opened up to everyone to chime in.
a lot of this makes sense...less acceptable lifestyle in the community where he lives, ergo the reason this is such a sensitive issue.
I mean, I live in Portland, OR. There is absolutely no social stigma here (if so, people hide it or move to Hillsboro or Gresham with like minded people)
No, bisexuality is different from homosexuality. And it's often forgotten and/or disregarded when people try to define themselves sexually. The user in question here phrased his question in terms of knowing if you're gay or not, but I did put forth the possibility of bisexuality.
I see...thanks for clearing that up. I am clueless.
because I don't really think of gay as just a way to have sex. It is also a very alive culture. I realize thet people group gay, bi, transgenders together, which I think is unfair because there is too wide of a cultural spectrum to just lump them together like that. I honestly think this guy is probably bi and scared of community retribution, which is really sad (the possibility of retribution that is).
basically I was just wondering is one could categorically label "gay" to a bisexual is my reason for using quotes in that context...again, this is based on my own ignorance.
This is a great thread though. I am glad to see so many gay friendly people in the MTG community because my FNMs (held in Gresham) tell a different story.
...aaand of course this turned into an "origin of gay" debate.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about whether you're gay or not. If you feel like dating a guy, date a guy. If you meet a girl you like, pursue it. You'll figure out your personal identity with age and experience.
Personally, I've always taken the Agent Kay approach to big questions like that.
Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
This is a great thread though. I am glad to see so many gay friendly people in the MTG community because my FNMs (held in Gresham) tell a different story.
I agree. There are a lot of people who will speak about a subject but know nothing about it. They think they've got it all figured out but they've clearly never dealt with something like that.
I'm gay to an obscene degree. Could I perform sexually with a woman? Yes. Could I "get off"? yes. What makes me gay? Well it's all about how I define it isn't it? To you I'm gay because I like guys and actively (...well semi actively) pursue them. But what you see is not what I feel per se.
To whomever said that being gay is a choice: Incorrect. Living a gay life is a choice. Having those homosexual feelings is nothing you can control. I think you're a little bit delusional to say that you can choose everything in your life.
To the person behind the OP: Don't just go around trying to get experience with any gay you can get your hands on. If you have attractions toward a man then that's number one priority. You can analyze why you have the feeling, but if you're looking for someone to tell you that it's ok to be gay, that's really up to you. All my life it wasn't ok to be gay. Then I admitted I was gay even though it was wrong. Then I admitted that I didn't feel it was wrong. Then I believed it. The journey to figure out who you are and what you like is a lifelong thing. Don't let one experience encapsulate who you are. And if you'd rather not, don't let yourself get caught up on a label. You don't have to sit there and say "I'm gay and that's who I am."
Just don't be afraid to let yourself like someone because it confuses you inside. To hold back because of that means you're not letting yourself experience a part of yourself (and the longer you choose to avoid it the harder it becomes)
It sounds like there's already been a couple of great answers to the OP, but I figured I'd chime in on a few parts I thought relevant-most of my experience is anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt.
A lot of the crudest "Am I Gay?" tests can be difficult to really face in the teenage years, and even later. A lot of other friends and myself (mostly from a conservative upbringing) compartmentalized our lives-separating daily thoughts and emotions to try to ignore that part of ourselves. And for those of us from a religious background, the process of coming out to ourselves included a good amount of denial and self hate. For reasons like these, the question of "Am I Gay?" can take years to figure out as many of us are used to thinking of being gay as a bad thing or at least as something we don't want to be.
One of the most important things I learned at this time was that, if you do discover you are gay or bisexual, you're not necessarily like the "gay community" as portrayed by some people and a good portion of the media. Gay people, from my experience, are not necessarily born with lisps, hand gestures, aren't always effeminate, and they don't have to do any specific job or have to follow a specific calling. There is a gay subculture which is extremely welcoming, and many people who have embraced that facet of their lives pursue that, though this is often a choice. By itself, being gay does not have to be one's most defining characteristic.
And it should make sense. Gays don't have much more in common with each other than straight people do-it mostly boils down to gender preference. What we have in common can often be summed up as: we might have had to face adversity; we've done at least some soul-searching and self-reflection in our lives; we know what it is to grow up gay in a mostly straight world. And we have pretty much all the problems that straight people do when it comes to relationships, except we've got a smaller pool to work with.
And the age 18-21 can be tough, because the college years are often like the straight high school ones for most gays-we figure out our sexuality and usually only then we are getting the freedom to date. Combine repressed teenage hormones with all the other freedoms that come at that age and I can see why one of the common conceptions of gays as promiscuous still stands. It's easy to get hurt at this age and the best thing to do about this I think is to try to figure yourself out as much as you can before dating, and while dating take everything new at a moderate pace.
I seem to have gone on a ranting spree, and for that I apologize. I hope this helps the person in the OP.
I can speak from experience and tell you simply that you're incredibly wrong.
OK Mikey you're confusing the crap out of me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderant Mikey G the admin on this site is openly a "Gaymer." I like his posts and threads he starts sometimes but will never understand the point of stating personal sexual preference in a signature.
Then you said
I'm not, I'm advertising a clan. I'm not gay, nor am I really much of a gamer.
Now people are PM'ing you on advice on trying to figure out if he is gay or not. Can you please explain the dubeyew tee eff that comes across alot of peoples minds? It seems the gay topic is the hot topic of the water cooler talk so I figure I would ask.
I don't understand why all the haters and quasi-philosophers need to join this topic. The OP's question is very simple h-o-w d-o y-o-u k-n-o-w y-o-u-r-e g-a-y. You either have insight into this or you don't, what i don't need to hear is people derailing the topic with chaff. If you want to discuss the merits of homosexuality or otherwise start another thread. If i was the op i'd stop reading the topic becausethere's to much ball.
For those simple-minded people who think its a question of looking at porn, sure thats a small part of it but its not the whole.
The thing with sexuality is its complicated. In the case of the OP he has had 'romantic feelings' for women for a while. Out of the blue he has the same feelings for guys. That's the first clue NOT finding two guys having sex a turn on. After that things move on depending on your level of exploration.
Some guys may reach the sexual stage faster, some guys not at all and others more gradually. I personally started off with a different attitude to seeing a guy naked then i have today. If your sexually confused the greatest way to freak yourself out is to find a pic of a naked guy and stare at his tackle. That's really dumb, you need to clear the fog in your brain connect with others that are bi/gay take things at your own pace.
If your uncomfortable with something don't rush it out of frustration it with be counter productive. Clear all the stereotypes out. Being bi/gay is personal to you. Don't get confused because your not a stereotype of a gay/bi guy.
Take baby steps and play it by ear. Some things you'll like other things not so much, each persons different. The only thing i can say that might help from personal experience is that with some people sexuality is fluid and where you are at one moment will be completely different weeks months or years later. That's why the porn test is fairly useless even if it might be beneficial for guys that have never been attracted to girls.
Its an irritatingly evolutionary, transitionary process when your bicurious.
Treat it like an open minded exploration of something fundamental and you'll do just fine. Don't forget other people's baggage will set you back. People's prejudices no matter how much they love you will never be able to dictate your true sexuality. Put it aside for now you have enough to be confused about. Ultimately only you know your own sexuality, sometimes it might be tough to define or put in a box. Bisexuality is a case in point ironically among the straight community AND the gay community. Ultimately you are comfortable with what feels natural to you and thats the only bench mark you need.
it may not be GUYS, it may just be 1 guy. I wouldn't read more than you think. Maybe just maybe he found these same feelings he has had towards women towards this one specific guy, not a set of guys, but 1 individual.
To the Hidden OP:
Are you attracted to your mom? are you attracted to your sisters (if you have any), odds are you probably are not. This doesnt mean you wont be attracted to SPECIFIC women.
and the same fall true for your dad, your uncle, your brother. etc...
it comes down to specifics, you like the people you like specifically because of certain, traits and characteristics.
Take into consideration your friends. why do you like them? Does it mean your head over heals for each one? probably not, do you care for them, sure you do they are your friends. But this doesn't set a specific path towards who you will go out with.
I have more female friends than i do male. Did that mean i would be more attracted to men, nope. it doesnt mean crap. I just rather be around girls more than guys. And it wasnt a "oh they understand me" kind of deal. i just enjoyed learning from them. They are different, their bodies work differently they think differently (though all humans do), they feel differently about certain things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderant Mikey G the admin on this site is openly a "Gaymer." I like his posts and threads he starts sometimes but will never understand the point of stating personal sexual preference in a signature.
Then you said
Now people are PM'ing you on advice on trying to figure out if he is gay or not. Can you please explain the dubeyew tee eff that comes across alot of peoples minds? It seems the gay topic is the hot topic of the water cooler talk so I figure I would ask.
why is it important? Maybe he was approached because he can be trusted to be sensitive to people's needs...
I never get why people need justification for this sort of thing. It seems like hair-splitting. Who cares? The fact is that he was approached and is really trying to get something solid to tell this guy. The purpose of this kind of "clarification" is to simply derail an honest discussion.
it may not be GUYS, it may just be 1 guy. I wouldn't read more than you think. Maybe just maybe he found these same feelings he has had towards women towards this one specific guy, not a set of guys, but 1 individual.
To the Hidden OP:
Are you attracted to your mom? are you attracted to your sisters (if you have any), odds are you probably are not. This doesnt mean you wont be attracted to SPECIFIC women.
and the same fall true for your dad, your uncle, your brother. etc...
it comes down to specifics, you like the people you like specifically because of certain, traits and characteristics.
Take into consideration your friends. why do you like them? Does it mean your head over heals for each one? probably not, do you care for them, sure you do they are your friends. But this doesn't set a specific path towards who you will go out with.
I have more female friends than i do male. Did that mean i would be more attracted to men, nope. it doesnt mean crap. I just rather be around girls more than guys. And it wasnt a "oh they understand me" kind of deal. i just enjoyed learning from them. They are different, their bodies work differently they think differently (though all humans do), they feel differently about certain things.
WTF are you blathering about? What does incest have to do with anything? Seriously...Your wall of text, in the end, says nothing.
Ooooookay then. Ignoring for a second the notion of suppressing psychological disorders via positive thinking, do you really think depression and sexual orientation are the same? It's a false analogy.
I don't, no. But scientists do.
I have plenty. I'd argue that I probably have more personal perspective on this matter than you do.
I don't think you understand genetics. Or hormonal influences. Or environmental influences. Or any of the science behind this issue. Please, kindly educate yourself.
Okay. If you want to be wrong, that's your choice.
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(Nice dropping of the arbitrary IQ)
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My helpdesk should you need me.
I can tell you are getting upset so I will leave the conversation but leave you with this question.
Why are you getting so upset over my proposing that you are in full control of yourself and your life and your existence? I mean if you "had a choice" would you change who you are? (this is obviously rhetorical and just meant to instigate critical thinking)
I look at myself every day and decide what I like and don't like and choose who I am. I honestly think it is important to a happy life and want everyone to be happy. There is nothing wrong with being gay, we all choose who we are and I don't like seeing people give up the choice in their life.
EDIT: If you decide that you WANT to bone men, then yes, you need to be doing what YOU want. Not what your physical body dictates.
Oh and I know, I thought about not dropping it but like seriously, both my parents have IQ's barely over 100 so I find it to be an accomplishment. I wasn't exactly a smart kid either, I had to work and study and learn to think better. Try reading The Art of Thinking, I swear my IQ went up 10 points just reading that book. Seriously, we control our physical existence.
I right wing homophobe could have a battery operated toy where the sun don't shine and be like, "hmm, satisfying...shhh don't tell anyone". And does that mean he's gay? No, it just means that he's a typical homo sapian that has sensitive nerve endings in his butt like the rest of us. So, telling people to try it out and see if you like it is kind of bad advice...becuase all of us would fail that litmus test.
Ignore physicallity for the meantime and focus on your heart and guts. Companionship is more than love, sexuallity, attraction or feelings. Companionship is all about personal chemistry. Could you grow old together despite the lack or access of any of the previously mentioned factors? Divorce is high in both straight and gay communities. Both circles still seem to be chosing the wrong partners...likely becuase they focus too much on one or more of those factors.
Hmm...long post is long and I havn't really given you an answer. All I can really do is give you things to think about.
The only thing that upsets me (though upset is an overstatement of my emotional commitment to this dialog with you) is that I fear what effect your ignorant words may have on impressionable and confused younger members here. They've got you telling them they can choose not to be gay (or whatever) and society making them feel that they'd be better off straight, and that's only setting them up for a whole lot of agony. The denial of self is rarely a fruitful path to take. This thread was created to aid in the healthy growth of a member, I feel your assertions are the complete opposite of healthy in this case.
We do have control over a great many aspects of ourselves. Sexual orientation is not one of them.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The more I thought about it, this was rather alarming. I began to wonder what was wrong with me? Why this abnormality? Why am I attracted to guys, and my friends, instead of all these girls they're drooling over?
From when I was 13 to about 17 years old, I pretended to be straight. I tried to act interested in girls, and make myself turned on by them. I imagined many sexual acts, but the fact of the matter was, I just didn't find them attractive. Instead I went through a lot of heart break, falling hard for friends who could not feel the same way towards me. When I came out to my family, my grandmother's first reaction was to tell me I should try being with a woman once because I wouldn't know until I tried.
Let's be bluntly honest: It's a bit difficult to have sex with a chick when you can't get your dick up.
My personal experience aside, I agree with Nai. Don't think of it in terms of labels, because to view yourself in terms of labels is to go through what you're feeling in fear. Put away the labels, don't think of what may or may not happen because of who you are. Explore your feelings, and decide for yourself. You'll always hear horror stories that are blown out of proportion by someone with a persecution complex, but the great majority of the time, whatever you fear is just being amplified by the unknown. The worst case scenario of exploring your feelings for men is it not being what you thought it would be, then life moves on and you know yourself that much better.
In the end, you are who you are, and there's no escaping it. You can accept it or run away from it, but it's up to you to explore and get to know yourself, even when something comes up you never expected.
(Also known as Xenphire)
We control our physical existence to a point. But we do not entirely control our existence, and our choices do not all originate from our minds. [In other words: the subconscious exists. Also, our minds are created from our genetic code. Nature vs. Nurture, etc.,etc.]
And we are, in the end, tethered to our bodies. I'm sure you can 'choose' to be straight if you're gay and vice versa, but this requires a massive helping of self-denial and deception for the rest of your life [and outside influences decrying the opposite choice, most likely, to give you a reason to suppress].
It comes down to what you want - do you want to deceive and misrepresent your body in order to feel happy/normal/accepted, knowing that you will have to do it for the rest of your life, or do you want to just be what you want to be?
The problem that I think you don't see is that there are people who don't know what they want to be, but they think society wants them to be something [i.e. not gay], and then people, acting on the advice of 'I can do whatever I want!', go do that, even though they don't *really* want to. Obviously people should do what they want to do but making such a simple statement obscures the underlying logic.
/sarnath'd by mikey, mostly.
* In regards to the thread: I'd assume that the vulgar point would be the correct one. That is: Are you attracted to men [in a sexual way]? Are you attracted to women [in a sexual way]? If you say yes to both you're bisexual, no to the first and yes to the second you're hetero if a man and not if you're a woman, yes to the first and no to the second you're hetero if a woman and not if you're a man.
But how do you determine these preferences? Be adventurous, etc. ... I dunno. Watch a lot of porn? ... I have no idea.
Also, the guy in question isn't gay. He's possibly [probably?] bi. Why? Because gay people don't like women sexually. That's one of the definitions.
and eyes are full of death besides
but luckily the soul is wise -
it sees beyond my blindness and
forced failure makes a better guise,
so as i come again alive,
it feels like life's a decent plan
Id say, what would define this person as a Homosexual, would be if he enjoys more the company, attractions, and feelings towards men in general. Sure youll like 1 boy more than another, but if you can move from that boy to another boy, then odds are you are gay. Its how men like women, Most men cant think outside the ****** and figure if you love the poon then you are straight. and then comes questions like these when you feel attracted towards one specific boy.
If you are attracted towards this one specific male, then you may not be fully into men. If lets say it wasnt this one male and it were say another, would you like that one? I would say you have to have a longer / consecutive "likes" before you can define your self as either hetero or homo.
Some guys, will disagree with me, thats fine, they could if they want, but they have to ask them selves how many women have they truly been attracted to as opposed to how many men.
I can tell you that in my entire life span of 25 years, I have been attracted to:
7 women
0 men.
and these are specific women. So that I'm not entirely fascinated in all women, just specific women. They either look one way, or think one way, or act one way or another. etc... etc...
I can tell you that I like: Aggresive / 5'8" or under / round eyes / a little bit on the heavier end, Im not talking about floppy fat or any of the sorts, but i like some meat with my bones / Darker color hair, i dont mind blond though but i tend to like looking at darker hair color. Sometimes even Jet black. / lighter skin tones / intelligent (sorry but there be some dumb broads out there in the world.)
yes im really picky when it comes to the type of girl im into. But that defines to me what kind of women i like. Your definition may be entirely different.
Go to a male porn site.
If you can't even bring yourself to look at the screen then your straight .
If you can stare for while but then have to go to a female porn site to try and forget what you just saw then you are still straight but not homophobic.
If you aren't bothered by wangs flopping about then you're probably bi or gay.
If you start beating off then you're definitely gay.
Adding fire automatically makes everything awesome.
It's not as black and white as this. Unless you're experienced with what a person goes through questioning their sexuality and having throughts that go against the so-called norm and the harsh realizations that come with questioning who you are, then I suggest you not try to make something so small and simple out of it.
This sort of nonsense doesn't take into account how easily one's true feelings are clouded by their mind reeling from sudden realization that you're going against what you've been raised to know as a deep-seeded supposed right and wrong in society.
Funny story: My 8th grade Science teacher was married to a man for 30 years; she and him had a few children together. I live in a small town, so word spread quickly when he left her for a man a couple towns away. Apparently he had been gay the entire time.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I assume that all the psychological and emotional factors are not entirely known so this story, in my opinion, doesn't really catalyze your argument 100%. If anything this story shows that choice does control these emotions. They had children which would indicate there was some amount of sexual activity going on so if he was gay all along then according to the logic of others in this forum he either couldn't have gotten it up or some other problem would've arised. I see him leaving as a choice to change his sexual orientation.
Do NOT get me wrong, I do not not hate homosexuals or anything of the sort but I disagree that sexual orientation could be anything other than heterosexual at birth. My argument stems from the often heated debate of evolution, in particualr natural selection. It is the goal of a species to reproduce by nature and that is a fact. This makes me think that nurture playes a part in the skewing of orientation as well as personal choice.
Once again my argument may make people think that I hate homosexuals; but I do not. I have a really good friend that I worked with that was as "fabulous" as any gay person could be and I had no problem talking to him and being a friend to him. Do I hate him for being gay? No. Do I feel that his choice isn't exactly what it should be based on my moral beliefs etc. Yes.
RPurphoros' AnvilR
UGEdric DredgeGU
XKarn, Silver Golem- Arte FactumX
WUBRGSliver Queen PlaneswalkersGRBUW
WBObzedat the Ghost DadBW
RUGMaelstrom Wanderer Good StuffGUR
--French 1v1 EDH--
WUGeistWU
--Pauper EDH--
WRBlaze CommandoWR
Further, that story, sadly, isn't proof of anything either way. Either that man was gay the entire time and holding himself back (since most parents in the era of his childhood were VERY against homosexuality), or he was straight and changing. Or he was bisexual and his tastes changed. Or he just happened to enjoy that one man he went for. There could be any number of reasons for it, all as likely as the other.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about whether you're gay or not. If you feel like dating a guy, date a guy. If you meet a girl you like, pursue it. You'll figure out your personal identity with age and experience.
Personally, I've always taken the Agent Kay approach to big questions like that.
Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe.
Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat,
and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet.
Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
-Men in Black
But if one belives that being gay isnt a choice then my argument is even better.
Natural Selction is defined:
"the process by which certain heritable traits—those that make it more likely for an organism to survive and successfully reproduce —become more common in a population over successive generations."
So if this is true then the genetic trait of homosexuality over the course of time would've quickly died out as the recessive trait would have been flushed out of a species almost entirely within one generation if the animals with the gene did not reproduce to pass it on.
So in my educated opinon while homosexuality may have been originally genetic; the fact that natural selection dictates that desirable traits are kept while less desirable traits are lost, it is a choice. There would not be a presence of a recessive "gay gene" save a random anomly, which wouldn't attest to the vast homosexual population if this had occured.
RPurphoros' AnvilR
UGEdric DredgeGU
XKarn, Silver Golem- Arte FactumX
WUBRGSliver Queen PlaneswalkersGRBUW
WBObzedat the Ghost DadBW
RUGMaelstrom Wanderer Good StuffGUR
--French 1v1 EDH--
WUGeistWU
--Pauper EDH--
WRBlaze CommandoWR
Or maybe you are vastly over simplifying genetics and genetic expression. I know those AA/aa diagrams in high school were fun, but don't be fooled into thinking you have any kind of complete understanding of genetics. Genes are tied to chromosomes, you split half your chromosomes off to combine with your partner. Genes can be closely paired with other genes meaning that while one may seemingly impede reproductive success, the recessive gene could be carried on by another which grants far higher success in another way.
Look a sickle cell anemia, it carries a benefit and a deficit. Genetics is not black and white, just shades of gray.
Your assumption here is that non-heterosexuality is evolutionarily undesirable. Which, given that it hasn't been selected against at least over the course of written human history (and not to mention the occurances of non-heterosexuality in other animals), may be a false assumption. Scientists have been studying exactly that, but the research is very new and I don't believe we yet have the answer. One hypothesis is the 'super uncle' theory, that non-heterosexual individuals increase the survivability of children that are part of their kin group (a big part of this theory is that through the complexities of DNA and mitochondria, a person may be more closely related to siblings and nieces&nephews than to their own children), which in turn indirectly ensures the probably survival of that individual's genes (as well as the genetic soup that results in non-heterosexuality).
Remember that natural selection's definition of reproduce is not as simple as creating offspring through sexual activity (though it is obviously the primary means life uses). It's base definition is simply the passing of one's genetic information to the next generation. And the animal kingdom is full of examples of how that can be done in ways other than what you'd assume. And that can certainly affect what can be construed as a desirable trait. Evolution is as complex as the dynamics of sexuality and genetics.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
My point is this: homosexuality is no more of a choice than heterosexuality.
But back to the original question - I would say all sexuality falls onto a spectrum. On one end you have totally straight, never even began thinking about a man in any sexual way ever and on the other you have totally gay, never ever began thinking about a woman in a sexual manner. The fact is, most people fall somewhere between those two extremes. And for a large part, where on falls in a moving target.
To repeat almost every non-crazy thing said on this thread: There is nothing to be ashamed of in liking men or women. Just do what feels comfortable and think what you want to and you will be happier.
a lot of this makes sense...less acceptable lifestyle in the community where he lives, ergo the reason this is such a sensitive issue.
I mean, I live in Portland, OR. There is absolutely no social stigma here (if so, people hide it or move to Hillsboro or Gresham with like minded people)
I see...thanks for clearing that up. I am clueless.
because I don't really think of gay as just a way to have sex. It is also a very alive culture. I realize thet people group gay, bi, transgenders together, which I think is unfair because there is too wide of a cultural spectrum to just lump them together like that. I honestly think this guy is probably bi and scared of community retribution, which is really sad (the possibility of retribution that is).
basically I was just wondering is one could categorically label "gay" to a bisexual is my reason for using quotes in that context...again, this is based on my own ignorance.
This is a great thread though. I am glad to see so many gay friendly people in the MTG community because my FNMs (held in Gresham) tell a different story.
QFT
I agree. There are a lot of people who will speak about a subject but know nothing about it. They think they've got it all figured out but they've clearly never dealt with something like that.
I'm gay to an obscene degree. Could I perform sexually with a woman? Yes. Could I "get off"? yes. What makes me gay? Well it's all about how I define it isn't it? To you I'm gay because I like guys and actively (...well semi actively) pursue them. But what you see is not what I feel per se.
To whomever said that being gay is a choice: Incorrect. Living a gay life is a choice. Having those homosexual feelings is nothing you can control. I think you're a little bit delusional to say that you can choose everything in your life.
To the person behind the OP: Don't just go around trying to get experience with any gay you can get your hands on. If you have attractions toward a man then that's number one priority. You can analyze why you have the feeling, but if you're looking for someone to tell you that it's ok to be gay, that's really up to you. All my life it wasn't ok to be gay. Then I admitted I was gay even though it was wrong. Then I admitted that I didn't feel it was wrong. Then I believed it. The journey to figure out who you are and what you like is a lifelong thing. Don't let one experience encapsulate who you are. And if you'd rather not, don't let yourself get caught up on a label. You don't have to sit there and say "I'm gay and that's who I am."
Just don't be afraid to let yourself like someone because it confuses you inside. To hold back because of that means you're not letting yourself experience a part of yourself (and the longer you choose to avoid it the harder it becomes)
A lot of the crudest "Am I Gay?" tests can be difficult to really face in the teenage years, and even later. A lot of other friends and myself (mostly from a conservative upbringing) compartmentalized our lives-separating daily thoughts and emotions to try to ignore that part of ourselves. And for those of us from a religious background, the process of coming out to ourselves included a good amount of denial and self hate. For reasons like these, the question of "Am I Gay?" can take years to figure out as many of us are used to thinking of being gay as a bad thing or at least as something we don't want to be.
One of the most important things I learned at this time was that, if you do discover you are gay or bisexual, you're not necessarily like the "gay community" as portrayed by some people and a good portion of the media. Gay people, from my experience, are not necessarily born with lisps, hand gestures, aren't always effeminate, and they don't have to do any specific job or have to follow a specific calling. There is a gay subculture which is extremely welcoming, and many people who have embraced that facet of their lives pursue that, though this is often a choice. By itself, being gay does not have to be one's most defining characteristic.
And it should make sense. Gays don't have much more in common with each other than straight people do-it mostly boils down to gender preference. What we have in common can often be summed up as: we might have had to face adversity; we've done at least some soul-searching and self-reflection in our lives; we know what it is to grow up gay in a mostly straight world. And we have pretty much all the problems that straight people do when it comes to relationships, except we've got a smaller pool to work with.
And the age 18-21 can be tough, because the college years are often like the straight high school ones for most gays-we figure out our sexuality and usually only then we are getting the freedom to date. Combine repressed teenage hormones with all the other freedoms that come at that age and I can see why one of the common conceptions of gays as promiscuous still stands. It's easy to get hurt at this age and the best thing to do about this I think is to try to figure yourself out as much as you can before dating, and while dating take everything new at a moderate pace.
I seem to have gone on a ranting spree, and for that I apologize. I hope this helps the person in the OP.
W Send Forth My Endless Army W
BU Singularity BU
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Testing (Legacy):
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OK Mikey you're confusing the crap out of me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderant
Mikey G the admin on this site is openly a "Gaymer." I like his posts and threads he starts sometimes but will never understand the point of stating personal sexual preference in a signature.
Then you said
Now people are PM'ing you on advice on trying to figure out if he is gay or not. Can you please explain the dubeyew tee eff that comes across alot of peoples minds? It seems the gay topic is the hot topic of the water cooler talk so I figure I would ask.
it may not be GUYS, it may just be 1 guy. I wouldn't read more than you think. Maybe just maybe he found these same feelings he has had towards women towards this one specific guy, not a set of guys, but 1 individual.
To the Hidden OP:
Are you attracted to your mom? are you attracted to your sisters (if you have any), odds are you probably are not. This doesnt mean you wont be attracted to SPECIFIC women.
and the same fall true for your dad, your uncle, your brother. etc...
it comes down to specifics, you like the people you like specifically because of certain, traits and characteristics.
Take into consideration your friends. why do you like them? Does it mean your head over heals for each one? probably not, do you care for them, sure you do they are your friends. But this doesn't set a specific path towards who you will go out with.
I have more female friends than i do male. Did that mean i would be more attracted to men, nope. it doesnt mean crap. I just rather be around girls more than guys. And it wasnt a "oh they understand me" kind of deal. i just enjoyed learning from them. They are different, their bodies work differently they think differently (though all humans do), they feel differently about certain things.
why is it important? Maybe he was approached because he can be trusted to be sensitive to people's needs...
I never get why people need justification for this sort of thing. It seems like hair-splitting. Who cares? The fact is that he was approached and is really trying to get something solid to tell this guy. The purpose of this kind of "clarification" is to simply derail an honest discussion.
WTF are you blathering about? What does incest have to do with anything? Seriously...Your wall of text, in the end, says nothing.